Nicola and IndyRef2 360

Whether Nicola’s speech today postpones Indyref2, and by how much, is the cause of much fevered speculation tonight across both social and mainstream media.

Ultimately, I do not think it is important provided that she genuinely meant what she said in this section of the speech, which is by far the most important section:

Over the past few months, the focus on the when and how of a referendum has, perhaps inevitably, been at the expense of setting out the many reasons why Scotland should be independent. 
The fact is we are only talking of another referendum so soon after the last one because of Brexit. And it is certainly the case that independence may well be the only way to protect Scotland from the impact of Brexit. 
But the case for an independent Scotland is not just about Brexit – it goes far beyond that. 
Many of us believe that independence is the right and best answer to the many, complex challenges we face as a country – and also the best way to seize and fully realise our many opportunities as a country. 
So the challenge for all of us who do believe that Scotland should be independent is to get on with the hard work of making and winning that case – on all of its merits – and in a way that is relevant to the changes, challenges and opportunities we face now and in the years ahead. That is what my party will do.
We won’t do it on our own – because the independence case is bigger than us too.
My party will engage openly and inclusively with, and work as part of, the wider independence movement.
And, together, we will build and win the case that governing ourselves is the best way to tackle the challenges we face as country – from building a better balanced and more sustainable economy, to growing our population, strengthening our democracy, and tackling deep seated problems of poverty and inequality.

This acknowledges a very important truth. The SNP has not campaigned for Independence since September 2014. I have never heard a senior member of the SNP attempt to argue coherently and at any length why Scotland should be independent, since the 2014 referendum campaign. The SNP has lost its focus on Independence, and become obsessed with gaining political position within the UK devolution settlement.

If Nicola really means it, the refocusing of the SNP on Independence would be the most important thing in today’s speech. But does she mean it? How is the SNP going to connect with the “Wider yes movement?” What is the mechanism by which this will operate?

Brexit is a disaster. Just two weeks ago, the EU Commission brought new rules into force ending telephone roaming charges within the EU. From now on you will pay anywhere within the EU just the price you pay for using your phone at home. Until of course the UK “takes back control” of the right for you to pay £1.50 a minute instead.

Today the EU Commission took on Google with a massive 2.4 billion Euro fine and an order to change the abusive practices by which it prioritises answers to search results to its own commercial advantage. Once the UK “takes back control”, we can be sure that will be the end of major US corporations being challenged on our behalf. You will be able in the UK to enjoy Google manipulating search results however it may wish. Those are just two of thousands of examples, and which happen to have arisen this last couple of weeks, which show how stupid Brexit is. Not to mention the petty bureaucratic attack impositions on EU residents here.

As it becomes more and more obvious how stupid Brexit is, as the UK economy heads towards a Brexit induced depression, and as Tory cuts bite harder and harder into communities, the case for Scottish Independence will become stronger, and eventually irresistible.

We have seen how very fast political sentiment changes in the modern age. Provided there is wholehearted and unequivocal Independence campaigning, the political mood will swing strongly behind Independence at some point in the next two years, and Sturgeon’s speech today leaves room to bring Indyref2 forward when that happens.

The ground may be fertile, but if you don’t sow the seed you will not reap. To win Independence all we have to do is campaign for it. Some of us have never stopped doing that, and the groundswell of support is growing across Scotland. The SNP leadership need to get on board now or they will be running to catch up.

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360 thoughts on “Nicola and IndyRef2

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  • mike

    Boris Johnson is absolutely convinced that the Syrian government carried out April’s gas attack.

    Well that’s good enough for me.

    Theodore Postol of MIT and Seymour Hersh say otherwise. What do they know.

    • Peter Beswick

      Blair knew there were WMD’s in Iraq because the SiS guy, Chair of JIC (Scarlett) [when Campbell wasn’t chairing the meetings] told him it was true.

      So Britain went to war with Iraq.

      When it was discovered there were no WMD in Iraq and Scarlett’s false intelligence had lead to the unjustified and unnecesary deaths of thousands of innocents and the destruction of a relatively peaceful country,what do you think happened? That’s right Scarlett got promoted to head of SiS, he became “C”, an effin big C at that.

      The cause of the problem centred around Blair nand Bush’s pathological insecurity, similar to what Trump is displaying now.

      The lunatics really have taken over the asylum.

      • Michael McNulty

        Blair’s WMD claims were lies obvious to most people, and for which I consider Alistair Campbell a war criminal beside him, but I thought the Bush Administration was rotten enough to plant WMD when none were found. I think others expected that too, like Blair himself and certainly Colin Powell, whose dramatic charade in the UN with a vial of bicarb made him a war criminal as well.

        The fact they didn’t plant WMD doesn’t make them honest, it makes them incompetent. Hitler, Stalin and Mao would have faked it.

      • fred

        I think Bush and Blair genuinely believed there was a real chance that Saddam might have had WMDs. I think atomic bombs were not accounted for when South Africa disarmed in 1989. I think Saddam thought it was in his interests if other governments, particularly Iran, couldn’t be sure if he had them or not.

        It would explain a lot of things that otherwise just don’t make sense, of all the theories it seems the most likely.

        • Xavi

          Perhaps they believed it. But the real reason Bush-Cheney wanted to invade Iraq, rarely mentioned over here, was to gain the “political capital” they needed in order to be able to privatise Social Security at home.
          That’s what Bush himself frankly told family friend Mickey Herschowitz when he was writing a biography of Dubya during the 2000 presidential election campaign.

        • Michael McNulty

          Wasn’t David Cameron involved in moving those nuclear weapons? Western intelligence would have known where they were but if they didn’t, and Saddam did have them, an invasion could have persuaded him to use them. That contradicts the warning Saddam could launch WMD in forty-five minutes, but not the nukes he may have before we can invade Iraq and stop him.

          • Michael McNulty

            If Saddam had have had nukes I think his first targets to spite the US would have been the Saudi oilfields, then Kuwait’s, then his own. The coalition could not possibly invade, overrun and occupy Iraq to stop it within 45 minutes. It was a lie. The neo-cons and Blair’s bunch of thugs knew it was a lie, and so do those who say they believed the dossier. What? Are they fucking idiots?

            The only reason Tories like William Hague backtracked on support for the invasion was because the neo-cons took the piss and gave few of the spoils to British contractors. Hague’s muppets realised too late they’d been took for suckers.

        • Republicofscotland

          “I think Bush and Blair genuinely believed there was a real chance that Saddam might have had WMDs.”

          The invasion of Iraq was never about WMD’s. The invasion and consequential mas murder of Iraqi’s, was in reality predicated on enriching, the Great Satan’s industrial military complex machine.

          The US military, hand-in-hand, with the big corporations such as Halliburton, made a fortune from the destruction of Iraq, WMD’s were the key to the invasion.

          As for Blair and Bush, they knew fine well no WMD’s were in Iraq, “With you whatever” said Blair to Bush.

        • Republicofscotland

          I should add, now the Great Satan’s eye has turned to Syria, where a seven year invasion backing proxy fighters has stalled.

          Only this time the fear factor thrust upon the Western civilization, to give government the nod through public consent, allowing a full scale invasion, isn’t WMD’s but chemical weapons attacks by Assad on his people.

          Problem, Reaction, Solution.

        • Jo

          The fact is UN inspections were going on and were finding nothing! Blair and Bush pulled them out before they were finished and invaded anyway! They were after a war. No more no less.

        • John Spencer-Davis

          I think if Bush and Blair had genuinely believed in Saddam’s possession of WMD they would not have gone into Iraq. You don’t see Trump going into North Korea (yet) and I believe it is because NK has them. Which is an excellent incentive for all countries to which the US is hostile to acquire WMDs as quickly as possible. J

          • fwl

            Exactly John Spencer-Davis, Libya was invaded AFTER it renounced its weapons of mass destruction not before. Says it all unfortunately.

        • Node

          PNAC : Rebuilding America’s Defenses
          Signatories : most of the Bush government
          Published : September 2000 (18 months before Iraq invasion),

          “While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein.”

    • Salford Lad

      The most insidious form of propaganda is the suppression of the truth. The Chemical attacks at Ghouta and at Khan Sheiktum were staged by ISIS and the White Helmets.
      The White Helmets are the phoney First Responders in Syria and are adepts at staging propaganda scenes ,especially using children ,as was evident in Aleppo.
      The White Helmeta are headed by ex British mercenary James le Mesurier and funded by the British FCO ,USAID and others to the tine of $100 MILLION. They are a money conduit for ISIS. What better way to fund terrorism than thru’ an AID agency.

  • James

    You, and “Nicola”, and every prominent cheerleader for breaking up the UK are still missing the most important point.

    As long as a majority of Scotland disagrees with you about what you mean by the terms “we”, and “us” and, for that matter, “Scotland”, you will never get what you want.

    • reel guid

      Jeremy, unfortunately, has turned into a left wing version of Tony Blair. He now thinks, like Blair did circa 1998, that all he has to do is show himself to a crowd and the human condition is immediately brightened. No need to worry about practicalities.

      • Xavi

        He’s being completely practical as regards sustaining Labour as a serious electoral force. Remaining in the Single Market would entail agreeing to continued free movement of labour into the UK. Unfortunately, the latest British Social Attitudes Survey confirmed that mass, unrestricted immigration was the defining issue in the Brexit vote.

        Corbyn’s made it plain he’s by no means anti-immigrant, but he knows that f Labour were seen to be contemptuous of the ultimate reason for Brexit they’d haemmorhage dozens of seats in the Midlands, North and Wales. Had Labour embraced the LibDem position after the referendum, they’d probably already be finished as a potential party of government.

        • Republicofscotland


          So tell me what will cause the most damage to Britain, no access to the Single Market? Or the free movement of peoples in and out of Britain?

          I know what one I think will damage Britain the most. I’m shocked at Corbyn not fighting to keep Britain in the Single Market.

          • Xavi

            I agree with you, mate. Just pointing out the electoral realities he’s confronted with. They’re different to those confronting the SNP.

          • Salford Lad

            Whats all this whining about the Single Market . There is a big world out there, and we traded with it at one time. Why restrict ourselves to a failing European economy ,which is hog -tied by its neo-liberal.austerity policies and dysfunctional currency.
            Go East Young man and connect with the new dynamic economies of Asia.. The pendulum has swung and Europe is in decline. Time to take your heads out of your rear ends.

          • Republicofscotland

            “Go East Young man and connect with the new dynamic economies of Asia..”

            Indeed, May met with Modi, not that long ago, how many indigenous Indians do you think Britain will almost certainly need to cede access to, to placate Modi?

            It kind of defeats the Brexiteers stance against the free-movement of people a EU must. Then again do we have anything India really needs trade wise? On the otherhand I’m sure the 1.2 billion population of India has plenty to export to Britain.

          • Xavi

            China certainly sees some potential in the weary old whore that is Britain. Despite Brexit, it’s chosen the royal docks as the location for its major European business hub, which will become London’s third financial district.
            It’s an initiative of China’s richest province, Guangdong, and is being built by the Chinese state-owned contractor CITIC. Construction started this week.

      • Republicofscotland

        His popularity has increased since he decided to hijack SNP policies. The problem is does he have the support of his party to implement them, if he becomes PM.

        • Xavi

          Most of them are still in parliament only because of the policies in Corbyn’s manifesto.

          • Republicofscotland

            But does that then translate to supporting his policies. One example is Ian Murray MP, who resigned in protest at Corbyn as leader of Labour. Now he can’t get enough of the man, will the knives be out when it comes to the crunch, or will the Labour party pull together.

            Labour in Scotland sent seven MP’s to Westminster, not because they are popular, but because of the Corbyn bounce, infact the leader of Scottish Labour often proclaimed she didn’t rate Corbyn.

            Of course Corbyn is now popular with voters, his stunning resurrection in the snap GE shows that. I doubt the Tories would want another GE anytime soon.

          • Xavi

            Definitely not. As regards the PLP, we’ll just have to see. A good many of them are longtime market fundamentalists and liberal war hawks, purposely selected by Blair and Brown for that very reason. But they’re also careerists who may be feeling vulnerable to reselection with the new boundary changes. There might even be mass Damascene conversions if they sense there’s been a big shift in public mood towards anti-austerity tax and spend, which the latest BSAS report suggests is happening already.

    • MJ

      “staying in the Single Market” and “access to the Single Market” are not the same thing.

      Countries outside the EU have access to the single market but, in most cases, have to pay a modest tariff. All current UK trade with these countries can be renegotiated (provided the customs union is also ditched) and the EU will lose a lot of revenue.

      Corbyn must guide the UK beyond the scope of all EU law otherwise key aspects of his manifesto will be illegal.

      • Republicofscotland

        So you’re okay with tariffs on top of already rising prices. Yes the EU will miss trading with Britain, if that’s the way it turns out. However, I’m pretty sure Britain will miss trading with the EU, the largest market on the planet.

        The EU 27 will still have each other to trade with, without tariffs, who will Britain trade with, that has such a large market and is as close to Britain as the EU?

        What about EU subsidies, British farmers receive hundres of millions each year, will the Tories keep on paying them?

        • MJ

          You appear to be under the impression that leaving the EU will mean the end of trade with the EU.

          Farmers will continue to be subsidised, just as they were before the UK joined the EEC. The UK is a net contributor to EU coffers and all existing EU “funding” can be carried over without loss.

          • Republicofscotland


            That’s not what I’ve read, after 2020.



            Indeed, from what I’ve read, the EU will become a farming competitor. It could be cheaper for the British government to let British farmers go bust and buy in EU products.

            The Tories do have form, they bought coal from Poland during Thatcher’s tenure, it was cheaper than keeping British coal mines open.

            Post 2020 and CAP, will be a very worring time for the agricultural industry in Britain in my opinion.

          • MJ

            Don’t worry about it. The government was unable to commit beyond the then date of the next GE.

          • Republicofscotland

            “Don’t worry about it. ”

            Very BoJo-esque in my opinion, should be followed up with a quick Brexit means Brexit, and when the natives becomes restless, throw in strong and stable.

            It works a treat. ?

          • Dave Lawton

            Really. “Brexit could leave a €20 billion hole in the European Union’s annual budget, a top Brussels official has warned.”

          • Dave Lawton


            “That’s correct, two things though, one it doesn’t help our position, and two, the EU could replace with other EU nations waiting to join the EU.”

            I`m sure your right and Ukraine being one of them.And one of them the Bilderberberger`s plan for World government.We at the counterculture underground were shown these plans in 1989.
            If you are happy about this good luck.

    • Republicofscotland

      Who’ll save the farmers after 2020, Westminster?

      Independence is the way forward.

      • reel guid

        There might be some Scottish farmers who’ll regret throwing their CAPs in the air for the Tories.

        • Republicofscotland

          I see what you did there, nice one.

          Yes, the farming protest vote against the SNP in Scotland will backfire.

          80% of something (EU CAP) is far better that 100% of nothing (post EU CAP 2020).

          For I doubt the Tories will continue to subsidise farmer to the extent the EU did, especially not Scottish farmers.

          The fishing industry in Scotland in my opinion will suffer a similar fate, they’ll get sold out by Westminster.

      • Jo

        Indeed RoS
        The Tories have guaranteed those payments only until 2020 with no information on whether they will continue thereafter. They can’t say they weren’t warned.

  • Michael McNulty

    Isn’t it amazing how quickly the authorities found that Grenfell Tower resident who never even existed yet they can’t find an estimate of the number who died there? As for the greedy moron who embezzled let’s remember fraud is a white collar crime and his sentence should reflect that, but I guess he’ll get the biggest jail sentence of all for the Grenfell atrocity. As always the bankers and generals who devise the crimes escape responsibility while those who handle the money or the inmates do the time.

    • Republicofscotland

      What I found shocking is the sheer amount of high rise building that have the combustible cladding on them. Then there’s the non-high rise buildings as well, schools, hospitals university buildings, could all have the cladding.

      A Edinburgh Uni student building has the offending cladding on it.

      As for Grenfell, a scapegoat will need to be found to appease the masses, and shelter those who made big profits from the cladding from any further abuse.

      I’ll tell you what, I wouldn’t like to the scapegoat for that one…gulp.

    • Kempe

      ” Isn’t it amazing how quickly the authorities found that Grenfell Tower resident who never even existed yet they can’t find an estimate of the number who died there? ”

      Not really, no.

      • Michael McNulty

        I was being cynical. The point is they don’t need to identify a body to announce it’s a victim. If the tower had been destroyed in a willful act they’d have released those numbers within days but because it was cost-cutting neglect they don’t want to. I think up to 500 dead.

        • Kempe

          Conspiracies aside the initial estimate of those killed on 9/11 was 5,500 and it took a couple of years before the real number was established. Historians still can’t agree on how many people died on the Titanic. The problem with Grenfell Tower is going to be finding the bodies in the first place. I expect in many cases all that’ll be left will be a few bones which will have to be sifted from the general debris, it’s going to be a long job.

  • reel guid

    When is Jeremesus Choristbyn going to perform the miracle of turning hard brexit tax haven UK into a socialist Shangri-La?

    • Dave Price

      Listen, I hope you guys haven’t missed the Independence boat. I think an independent Scotland, and an independent England that can call itself by its real name*, instead of hiding behind two ugly initial letters would be a wonderful thing. I understand why you are so worried about the impending Tory demise in England. But honestly, please stop this politicking. At last we’ve worked out how to throw off the Tory toads that have been squatting for decades on the social conscience of the good majority of the English people. Rejoice with us!

      *I wish the same for Wales.

    • K Crosby

      It already is for rich bastards, unfortunately we pay for their Leninist economy with the fascist economy they force on us.

  • DLL

    Not sure why Corbyn sacked three cabinet members, or why the vote by fifty or so Labour MPs was seen as a Rebellion. There were only two substantial elements missing from the amendment proposed by Labour as a whole compared to the EU-only one.

    negotiate an outcome that prioritises jobs and the economy = set out transitional arrangements to maintain jobs, trade and certainty for business
    and maintains the existing rights of EU nationals living in the UK and UK nationals living in the EU = and include clear protections for EU nationals living in the UK now, including retaining their right to remain in the UK, and reciprocal rights for UK citizens
    recognise that no deal on Brexit is the very worst outcome and therefore = does not rule out withdrawal from the EU without a deal
    delivers the exact same benefits the UK has as a member of the Single Market and the Customs Union /=/ set out proposals to remain within the Customs Union and Single Market
    ?? = set out clear measures to respect the competencies of the devolved administrations
    ?? = guarantee a Parliamentary vote on any final outcome to negotiations

    Queen’s Speech — Energy Prices — Europe — Tuition Fees — Public Sector Pay — Minimum Wage — Student Grants — 29 Jun 2017 at 16:50

    # recognise that no deal on Brexit is the very worst outcome and therefore

    # call on the Government to negotiate an outcome that prioritises jobs and the economy, delivers the exact same benefits the UK has as a member of the Single Market and the Customs Union, ensures that there is no weakening of cooperation in security and policing, and maintains the existing rights of EU nationals living in the UK and UK nationals living in the EU;

    Caroline Lucas (Greens), Plaid Cymru and the Scottish National Party all voted in favour and had a 100% turnout. All twelve Liberal Democrat MPs were absent. Sylvia Harmon, Independent (former UUP) voted against the amendment. George Howarth, Lindsay Hoyle and Rosie Winterton (Labour) were also absent. Howarth was a former deputy speaker and the other two are current deputy speakers, so that may account for their absence.

    Queen’s Speech — European Union Negiotiations — 29 Jun 2017 at 16:50

    # respectfully regret that the Gracious Speech does not rule out withdrawal from the EU without a deal, guarantee a Parliamentary vote on any final outcome to negotiations, set out transitional arrangements to maintain jobs, trade and certainty for business, set out proposals to remain within the Customs Union and Single Market, set out clear measures to respect the competencies of the devolved administrations, and include clear protections for EU nationals living in the UK now, including retaining their right to remain in the UK, and reciprocal rights for UK citizens”.

    Sylvia Harmon, Independent (former UUP), Caroline Lucas (Greens), Plaid Cymru and the Scottish National Party all voted in favour and had a 100% turnout.

  • J

    Jonathan Cook

    In fact, the US threats increase, rather than reduce, the chances of a new chemical weapons attack. Other, anti-Assad actors now have a strong incentive to use chemical weapons in false-flag operation to implicate Assad, knowing that the US has committed itself to intervention. On any reading, the US statements were reckless – or malicious – in the extreme and likely to bring about the exact opposite of what they were supposed to achieve.

    A substantial portion of the world has a fairly clear idea what they’re doing and why, yet on and on they go. And The Guardian’s current editors, how long will they continue pretending?

  • Ishmael

    This blog is clearly primarily a platform for independence campaigning. Im really quite stupid for letting my energy against the state (witch includes the Scottish state apparatus) be used in this attempt.

    I believe it should be what it’s primarily about, Not human rights or free speech.

    And the use of conspiratorial subjects. …I mean come on, it’s just padding out.

  • Ishmael

    SO….What are you waiting for?

    Brexit is going to happen. The election happened and the tories got in. What are you waiting for? Until the UK actually leaves? This is going to take years, maybe a decade to sort out… (if such things ever really are in reality) ..

    I think your predicted “mood swing” is based on your own obstinate attitude toward the whole thing, that’s surly only doing it more harm. So yes, to an extent will be self fulfilling as far as Scotland’s role in it. But who cares, “independence” will make everything great.

  • Dave

    The problem is the false flag claims seem to rest on assertion only and so there is no defence from them happening. The initial attempt by Obama was halted due to Cameron losing the vote in Parliament and presumably under a strengthen Corbyn a new Parliamentary vote would be lost too, but to avoid being on the back foot the anti-war tendency needs to expose the false flag meme. And if they don’t debunk the ones held over here, not much chance of exposing the ones over there.

    The cladding on tower blocks is expensive and thus not put up due to austerity, but to crackpot climate legislation to reduce CO2 emissions, Kensington being the richest council in the country due to its official status as a deprived borough.

      • Dave

        It is an offence for a local authority to waste money, but its not officially wasted if its spent complying with government legislation. And the climate scam is an obvious hoax.

    • Ishmael

      & “crackpot climate legislation to reduce CO2 emissions” ?

      Not that this is related in any critical way to what you refer, but it’s a pretty extreme thing to say in any context.

      It’s based on peer reviewed science. Dismissing it is crackpot…At best.

  • Republicofscotland

    I’m no big fan of Union Jack suited Ian Murray, but fair play to him, he stood alongside the SNP, on the losing side albeit on the soft/hard Brexit vote. 49 other Labour MP’s defied the Labour abstention and voted along with Murray and the SNP, Plaid Cymru, the Greens, and several Libdems to remain in the Single Market.

    There was no surprise however that the Scottish Tory thirteen, voted with the government. So much for Ruth Davidson standing up for Scotland, mind you a hard Brexit will hurt the whole of Britain.

    I just don’t understand why Corbyn chose to have his MP’s abstain on such a crucial vote. You can be anti-EU, but still have access to the Single Market.

        • Ishmael

          Even as an ideal aspirational target it seems deeply flawed, isolationist, highly destructive market fundamentalist idea.

          The “free market” is really what we are all slaves to.

          • Republicofscotland

            You’re forgetting that human’s are a deeply flawed species. However, I agree that the EU has its flaws, still it does bring together the people within its borders.

            Even though it maybe limited to the EU, free movement, especially of people, is a step in the right direction in my opinion.

          • Ishmael

            That step should neither be a condition of or subject to “markets” should it?

            I agree it’s a good idea. And as a policy of Europe and beyond it’s something to strive for. Because people should be free, not because it serves some market ideology.

          • Ishmael

            And no, I don’t think humanity is deeply “flawed” (not that I see the relevance) I think the systems and circumstance we are forced in as a result doesn’t help make the most of peoples potential, the opposite on fact.

            Like tightly organising a blog to have open discussion. We are all oppressed by largely arbritrary decisions/sytems made by a few based on obviously partial, often self serving imagined “normality” ie, what’s “political” and “possible”.

            Don’t tell me what’s possible….

          • Republicofscotland

            “And no, I don’t think humanity is deeply “flawed” ”


            Human nature is, in my opinion the main reason society hasn’t evolved quicker.

            Freud’s Personality Theory, touches on human being needs and desires, power wealth acceptance fantasies, sex etc. Freud said that three spheres affect the human self, the outside world, human interaction, and how one feels about the self.

            The outside world influences greatly, society promotes, wealth and success first of all.

            This contributes deeply to humans becoming flawed, however it’s a far too complex and broad subject to delve deeply into in here.

          • Ishmael

            “the main reason society hasn’t evolved quicker.”

            Superstition. I think scientifically (and by observation) evolution of some human facility has remained as is, as was, a long time ago, well before markets and money. Certainly the “nation state”..We where just as able, cognisant, and probably more civilised to each other on the whole.

            It circumstance that dictates a lot, not human “evolution” of any ability on some grand scale. I think that whole idea has been diss-proven, hasn’t it?

        • Ishmael

          Nobody is perfect, but what is perfection?

          If it’s “human nature”, then so be it. Myself I think that’s just an opinion based on idealogical notions. Classifications of experiences that can’t be measured, and when are often reflect the framework of measurement. So deeply flawed.

          I think we have a basic good, cooperative, rational, nature, that’s self evident. It’s clear to me Freud was looking through a personal window. Of his time, pre-dispostions.

          Not that any of this should be relevant.

      • Ishmael

        This is why nationalist of all stripes hate “marxists” or anyone who really thinks about things in a ‘materialist’ way, in a way that looks at issues as a fluid influenceable changeable situation as they are in reality. And what specific influences really mean, how they are reproduced or challenged, and by who.

        We are presented instead by a lot of generalisations, “single market” The “EU” etc. Without actually taking about specifics you may as well be talking about puppies. And you? As people ? you have no power, it’s up to those who tell you what’s what, you to do as they say.

        Faith and devotion to the grand cause because they truly understand much more. Superior beings. The ruling classes.

    • reel guid


      I think Labour and the Tories are so scared of the millions of UKIP inclined low information voters in England who want a hard brexit and nothing less.

      In Scotland I don’t think we can quite gauge the full extent of the xenophobic mood down south that’s driving all this.

      The Tories, astonishingly for the party that used to be the champion of business, have set themselves against the single market because they fear a UKIP backlash in the south east and midlands against them. Labour, who must know how being out the single market will play havoc with working peoples’ jobs, also know they would lose out to UKIP big time in the North of England if they supported the single market.

      In Scotland we voted to remain, support the single market and have no UKIP or anti-immigrant problem. We’re coming out the union. We simply don’t have enough shared values to stay.

      • Republicofscotland

        reel guid.

        It has been said from day one of Brexit, from many corners, that the Brexit vote was all about the Tories, and for the benefit of their party.

        • J

          And it wasn’t said that of the diverse bunch that voted for it, they comprised 26.7 % of the electorate.

          It’s not hard to recognise that this is not in any way a majority, nor need it be sanctified one way or demonised another. It was not a foundational moment.

  • Republicofscotland

    So the Tories and their new bought and paid for with public money the DUP voted against lifting the 1% public sector pay cap. The Tories and the DUP, cheered and applauded the cold and callous victory.

    That will see the likes of the brave fire fighters at Grenfell, or the heroic police efforts during terrorist attack go unrewarded. Or nurses, who work extraordinary shifts, tending to the sick and injured, some nurses even stay on by their shift unpaid, to help out struggling colleagues, this freeze is a slap in the face to them, and to all public sector workers who work extremely hard, sometimes above and beyond the call of duty.

    For the Tory MP’s to cheer and applaud that cap, is nothing short of disgraceful and sickening.

    Westminster MP’s can find monies for aircraft carriers, the renewal of Trident, and a billion quid to buy ten votes. Yet public service personnel , that really matter in society, are left feeling taken for granted when it comes to offering a pay rise.

    What kind of nation are we that we can give the queen a £6 million pounds rise, but cannot or will not give those who provide vital services a small rise.

    • reel guid


      And Kezia Dugdale ought to feel ashamed. If she hadn’t encouraged Labour voters in SNP v Tory constituencies to tactically vote Tory there quite probably wouldn’t have been a Tory/DUP majority to win the vote against lifting the pay cap.

      • fred

        I think we can thank that brave nurse who stood up and challenged Nicola Sturgeon on Question Time for the SNP U-turn on the public sector pay cap.

        • Jo

          You mean the one who lied about using foodbanks when she wouldn’t remotely qualify to use one? That one? Nothing brave about her. She was a complete fraud and was exposed later as a liar and anything but poor!

          • fred

            She was exposed as the wife of a Tory councillor, she was exposed as sending her daughter to fee paying public school, she was exposed as working for BUPA. All those things the Nationalists said about her were lies.

            People get into financial difficulties for all sorts of reasons, if she says there have been times when she had to use food banks I believe her and I don’t think Nationalists should be following her round and hassling her because she spoke against the public sector pay cap the SNP has imposed on Scotland since 2013.

          • Jo

            She was exposed as a liar Fred. She should have deleted her FB page before going on TV to plead abject

          • fred

            She wasn’t exposed as a liar.

            The Nationalists who slandered her were exposed as liars.

            She was not married to a Conservative councillor, she did not have a daughter at public school and she did not work for BUPA. those are the lies.

    • Michael McNulty

      And because of the pay cap for seven years any percentage pay rise is rated on a lower salary. They’ll never catch up those losses. I expect MPs will be awarded another handsome pay increase soon, no doubt announced while they’re away from parliament.

  • Ishmael

    The “free market” is really what we are all slaves to.

    And this is why they didn’t allow democracy in Greece, And will resist socialism (for the poor) in the UK.

    Why should they allow it in Scotland.? Because you’ll be a good puppy?

    • reel guid

      We’ll get independence with however much “they” allow. Building Jerusalem in Scotland’s green and partly rugged land can be the ongoing project.

        • JOML

          Hi Ishmael, did you read the white paper, albeit flaws and gaps included, I provided you with a link earlier in this thread, or are you just repeating yourself in ignorance? If you were critising aspects of the white paper, perhaps you’d get a bit more respect.

          • Ishmael

            Yea, I get to the crime paying bit.

            Ordinary messed up market driven (capitalist dominated) run of the mill state…It’s got nothing to do with the wealth of a state. All western countries have the money, land, recourses.

            Labour is barley offered any change, yet I don’t imagine the SNP could do as much, let alone would.

  • Ishmael

    Dunno about others but I fInd this highly superstitious stuff quite frightening in the hands of the state.

    It’s all very well to have a personal world view, But damm, Are there others in the SNP with this take on human nature?

    sigh,,,I don’t wanna know, really.

    • Ishmael

      Seems to me the building of a state, any state, is an odd thing. Must take a whole heap of religious cult like devotion to abstractions. And then the monetary system? How does one begin to justify it all. Given history.

      Like the EU, flawed projects from the start. The business is surely to arrange what is as best as we can to work for basic human needs…At lest I’m getting some idea what brexit may look like, the issues involved, the various plans.

  • Dave

    Labour supported austerity, either because they believed the money had run out or because they knew it was EU austerity to save the Euro that Labour wanted eventually to join. Following Brexit there is no prospect of UK joining the Euro so no need for continuing austerity. And the penny has finally dropped as it seems both Labour an Conservative now accept austerity is over.

  • Dave

    Trident is obsolete, but its misleading to say its a waste of money, if you mean the money can be better spent, because the money is only available if Trident proceeds. That is if there is no Trident, then there’s no money. That is Trident is a public works project same as solar panels and wind-farms! That is job creation schemes of no real value.

    • J

      Death turns to it’s complaining assistant and says “Hey buddy, it’s a living.”

  • Ishmael

    Seems Yanis is back-peddling. Basic human sustenance should not be subject someone else’s idea of “socially useful work”. We all do work.

    There is no natural “equilibrium” in a totally contrived money system. It’s never going to “work” and we must think/act past it. beyond it.

  • Sharp Ears

    It would be good to have Craig’s views on the Murdoch 21st Century Fox bid for the remaining 61% share of Sky. Bradley the DCMS Secretary of State passed the matter to OFCOM and then to the Competition and Markets Authority for a decision on 14th July. The HoC goes into recess on 26th July until September!

    In this debate, she used the phrase ‘quasi judicial role’ throughout, in fact 11 times!

    I believe that Bradley is only going through the motions and will give Murdoch the go ahead. She was asked, but did not answer, what Theresa May’s meeting with Murdoch in NY earlier in the year was all about.

    Debate last Thursday.

    Ofcom has concerns about Murdoch power in UK if Sky bid allowed
    Regulator’s reports conclude Murdochs are ‘fit and proper’ but allegations of harassment at Fox are ‘extremely serious and disturbing’

    • Sharp Ears

      Correction. The HoC goes into recess on 20th July, not the 26th. So little time for any further discussion in the six days between 14th and 20th. It is a fix.

      House rises 20th July
      House returns 5th September
      Conferences from 14th September 2017 until 9 October 2017

      ‘Nice work if you can get it’ as the song says.

  • mike

    Odd how ISIS took over Marawi just as soon as Duterte started to cosy up to China and Russia.

    Almost as if…no, forget it.

    That isn’t possible.

  • Sharp Ears

    Hatchet job by the Guardian on the Poitras hatchet job on Julian.

    Risk review – serviceable portrait of Julian Assange’s vanity
    3 / 5 stars
    Laura Poitras’s documentary about the WikiLeaks founder captures his creepy conceit and celebrity hauteur but leaves important questions unasked

    Julian has said it will do his reputation no good.

    Who is Poitras?

    The film was reviewed by Mark Kermode.

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