Knobs and Knockers 1316

What is left of the government’s definitive identification of Russia as the culprit in the Salisbury attack? It is a simple truth that Russia is not the only state that could have made the nerve agent: dozens of them could. It could also have been made by many non-state actors.

Motorola sales agent Gary Aitkenhead – inexplicably since January, Chief Executive of Porton Down chemical weapons establishment – said in his Sky interview that “probably” only a state actor could create the nerve agent. That is to admit the possibility that a non state actor could. David Collum, Professor of Organo-Chemistry at Cornell University, infinitely more qualified than a Motorola salesman, has stated that his senior students could do it. Professor Collum tweeted me this morning.

The key point in his tweet is, of course “if asked”. The state and corporate media has not asked Prof. Collum nor any of the Professors of Organic Chemistry in the UK. There simply is no basic investigative journalism happening around this case.

So given that the weapon itself is not firm evidence it was Russia that did it, what is Boris Johnson’s evidence? It turns out that the British government’s evidence is no more than the technique of smearing nerve agent on the door handle. All of the UK media have been briefed by “security sources” that the UK has a copy of a secret Russian assassin training manual detailing how to put nerve agent on door handles, and that given the nerve agent was found on the Skripals door handle, this is the clinching evidence which convinced NATO allies of Russia’s guilt.

As the Daily Mirror reported in direct quotes of the “security source”

“It amounts to Russia’s tradecraft manual on applying poison to door handles. It’s the smoking gun. It is strong proof that in the last ten years Russia has researched methods to apply poisons, including by using door handles. The significant detail is that these were the facts that helped persuade allies it could only be Russia that did this.”

Precisely the same government briefing is published by the Daily Mail in a bigger splash here, and reflected in numerous other mainstream propaganda outlets.

Two questions arise. How credible is the British government’s possession of a Russian secret training manual for using novichok agents, and how credible is it that the Skripals were poisoned by their doorknob.

To take the second question first, I see major problems with the notion that the Skripals were poisoned by their doorknob.

The first is this. After what Dame Sally Davis, Chief Medical officer for England, called “rigorous scientific analysis” of the substance used on the Skripals, the government advised those who may have been in contact to wash their clothes and wipe surfaces with warm water and wet wipes. Suspect locations were hosed down by the fire brigade.

But if the substance was in a form that could be washed away, why was it placed on an external door knob? It was in point of fact raining heavily in Salisbury that day, and indeed had been for some time.

Can somebody explain to me the scenario in which two people both touch the exterior door handle in exiting and closing the door? And if it transferred from one to the other, why did it not also transfer to the doctor who gave extensive aid that brought her in close bodily contact, including with fluids?

The second problem is that the Novichok family of nerve agents are instant acting. There is no such thing as a delayed reaction nerve agent. Remember we have been specifically told by Theresa May that this nerve agent is up to ten times more powerful than VX, the Porton Down developed nerve agent that killed Kim’s brother in 15 minutes.

But if it was on the doorknob, the last contact they could possibly have had with the nerve agent was a full three hours before it took effect. Not only that, they were well enough to drive, to walk around a shopping centre, visit a pub, and then – and this is the truly unbelievable bit – their central nervous systems felt in such good fettle, and their digestive systems so in balance, they were able to sit down and eat a full restaurant meal. Only after all that were they – both at precisely the same time despite their substantially different weights – suddenly struck down by the nerve agent, which went from no effects at all, to deadly, on an alarm clock basis.

This narrative simply is not remotely credible. Nerve agents – above all “military grade nerve agents” – were designed as battlefield weapons. They do not leave opponents fighting fit for hours. There is no description in the scientific literature of a nerve agent having this extraordinary time bomb effect. Here another genuine Professor describes their fast action in Scientific American:

Unlike traditional poisons, nerve agents don’t need to be added to food and drink to be effective. They are quite volatile, colourless liquids (except VX, said to resemble engine oil). The concentration in the vapour at room temperature is lethal. The symptoms of poisoning come on quickly, and include chest tightening, difficulty in breathing, and very likely asphyxiation. Associated symptoms include vomiting and massive incontinence. Victims of the Tokyo subway attack were reported to be bringing up blood. Kim Jong-nam died in less than 20 minutes. Eventually, you die either through asphyxiation or cardiac arrest.

If the nerve agent was on the door handle and they touched it, the onset of these symptoms would have occurred before they reached the car. They would certainly have not felt like sitting down to a good lunch two hours later. And they would have been dead three weeks ago. We all pray that Sergei also recovers.

The second part of the extraordinarily happy coincidence of the nerve agent being on the door handle, and the British government having a Russian manual on applying nerve agent to door handles, is whether the manual is real. It strikes me this is improbable – it rings far too much of the kind of intel they had on Iraqi WMD. It also allegedly dates from the last ten years, so Putin’s Russia, not the period of chaos, and the FSB is a pretty tight organisation in this period. MI6 penetration is just not that good.

A key question is of course how long the UK has had this manual, and what was its provenance. Another key question is why Britain failed to produce it to the OPCW – and indeed why it does not publish it now, with any identifying marks of the particular copy excluded, given it has widely publicised its existence and possession of it. If Boris Johnson wants to be believed by us, publish the Russian manual.

We also have to consider whether the FSB really publishes its secret assassination techniques in a manual. I attended, as other senior FCO staff, a number of MI6 training courses. One on explosives handling was at Fort Monckton, not too far from Salisbury. One in a very nondescript London office block was on bugging techniques. I recall seeing rigs set up to drill minute holes in walls, turning very slowly indeed. Many hours to get through the wall but almost no noise or vibration. It was where I learnt the government can listen to you through activating the microphone in your mobile phone, even when your phone is switched off. I recall javelin like directional microphones suspended from ceilings to point at distant targets, and a listening device that worked through a beam of infra-red light, but the target could foil by closing the curtains.

The point is that there were of course no manuals for this stuff, no manuals for any other secret MI6 techniques, and these things are not lightly written down.

I would add to this explanation that I lost all faith in the police investigation when it was taken out of the hands of the local police force and given to the highly politicised Metropolitan Police anti-terror squad. I suspect the explanation of the remarkably convenient (but physically impossible) evidence of the door handle method that precisely fits the “Russian manual” may lie there.

These are some of the problems I have with the official account of events. Boris lied about the certainty of the provenance of the nerve agent, and his fall back evidence is at present highly unconvincing. None of which proves it was not the Russian state that was responsible. But there is no convincing proof that it was, and there are several other possibilities. Eventually the glaring problems with the official narrative might be resolved, but what is plain is that Johnson and May have been premature and grossly irresponsible.

I shall post this evening on Johnson’s final claim, that only the Russians had motive.

Update: I have just listened to the released alleged phone conversation between Yulia Skripal in Salisbury Hospital and her cousin Viktoria, which deepens the mystery further. I should say that in Russian the conversation sounds perfectly natural to me. My concern is after the 30 seconds mark where Viktoria tells Yulia she is applying for a British visa to come and see Yulia.

Yulia replies “nobody will give you a visa”. Viktoria then tells Yulia that if she is asked if she wants Viktoria to visit, she should say yes. Yulia’s reply to this is along the lines of “that will not happen in this situation”, meaning she would not be allowed by the British to see Viktoria. I apologise my Russian is very rusty for a Kremlinbot, and someone might give a better translation, but this key response from Yulia is missing from all the transcripts I have seen.

What is there about Yulia’s situation that makes her feel a meeting between her and her cousin will be prevented by the British government? And why would Yulia believe the British government will not give her cousin a visa in the circumstance of these extreme family illnesses?

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1,316 thoughts on “Knobs and Knockers

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  • knuckles

    @craig or anyone else

    Does anyone know the backstory to the other Russian bloke who was strangled to death in London the same (day?) week as all this ”poisoning” charade kicked off in Salisbury? Or what’s happening with that? Its a near media blackout in relation to him. D Notice?

    Very strange that his death has been completely sidelined in this moment of anti Russian hyperbole.

    • bj

      The Russian ambassador mentioned it in his pres conference this afternoon. I believe he said they were totally left in the dark on that case as well.

    • Maureen

      He’s connected to Berezovsky and Litvinenko Something to do with Berezovsky asset stripping Aeroflot, Putin coming to power and having him up about it ,Berezovsky flees to London …sets himself up as a “prominent Putin critic”,Russia pursues him in the courts, Glushkov is a close friend(of Berezovsky) and ex director of Aeroflot, about to testify in the court case about Aeroflot

    • Sebastian

      Last I heard was strangled with a dog lead, and they were questioning civil partner. So possibly some domestic mishap.
      No mentions because doesn’t fit the narrative any more ?

      • bj

        Cluedo anyone?
        So Yulia’s dog was reported missing by her, and this other Russian gets killed by a dog lead.
        This is beginning to sound like operetta.

      • Maureen

        I reckon it was the dog
        Glushkov “walkie walkies Fido”
        Dog:”I’ll give you fxxxxxg walkies”

  • Waltraud Gundlach

    You are the highlight all over the germann newspaper informations. Thank you. Readers publish it. And therefore we find light in the dark.

  • Patrick Mahony

    To me it seems like Yulia is being held hostage. Some whistleblowers in the hospital have first, blown the High Court deposition “sedated and unable to communicate”, second, taken a tremendous risk by giving her a phone.
    One day these people should be praised like the White Rose in Nazi Germany.
    If HMG want to prove me wrong, put Yulia on the phone to Craig.

    • Paul

      Interesting, Patrick. In saying she’s been conscious for a week (I believe), how does that square with the court filing for permission to extract blood samples from individuals who were presented as comatose, perhaps never to recover? Was that not just last week?

      • JakeMorris

        That was on March 22, slightly before first news of her “recovery”. My guess would be she “recovered” as soon as OPCW experts left the hospital (if they were ever there in the first place).

        • Sharp Ears

          Almost coinciding with Easter Sunday a few days ago. The Resurrection. It’s miraculous.

          • Photios

            If it was the Russians wot dunnit, the Easter Resurrection would still be to come…

  • knuckles

    The UN is a western controlled fraud.

    A live broadcast of the Russia Ambassador to the UNSC and the UN translator (sounds like an American teenager) is a complete fucking moron interpreting. You can not follow at all what the Russian Ambassador is saying clearly. Its all garbled erm umm ehh ahhhh by the translator.

    Is it deliberate?

    In such an important diplomatic venue where every world is precious you would imagine it preferred the translator translate from a screen write up, maybe 10 seconds after the event, than this instantaneous mangled noise the halfwit has produced?

    The UN should be embarrassed. Shambolic.

    • lysias

      Maybe the Russian ambassador should make his speech first in Russian and then in English.

      • lysias

        Spunk Radio is down now, here in D.C. It went down about 20minutes ago. Maybe that is to prevent a broadcast.of the Russian ambassador’s speech.

    • JakeMorris

      Personally I think all high ranking diplomats should make their important speeches in a language the TARGET AUDIENCE can understand. I highly doubt Russians act in UN aiming at domestic audience – Putin already has over9000 support at home. So they’re aiming at THE WORLD AT LARGE as well as the UN at large, and English has become, for better or worse, de facto universal lingua Franca. So yeah, rather than rely on interpreters, they should speak “the language of the masses” themselves! Would be much easier to get their points across, I’d wager.

      • knuckles

        Personally I think an international institute, whose supposed purpose is to give a platform to the various DIFFERENT cultures of the world a forum to exchange views, should have a more capable ability to translate words in a simple, competent manner. Its not that fucking hard. Even if it was to be delayed by a few seconds. Instead we get eh um eh ahh duh……… it was embarrassing to listen to the mangled translation. If that was the objective of who ever employed the translator, take a bow, job done.

        The rest of your rational is projection on your part. More people speak Chinese and Portuguese on this planet than English. And who’s to say the target audience is not China? Every English speaker on the planet is well aware of the the Great British fraud going on here.

        It is beyond arrogant to expect a Russian Ambassador, or anyone else for that matter, not to speak their own language in such a forum. This is not a WASP owned planet. The sooner some folk realize that, the better.

        • JakeMorris

          I fully agree with the need to promote diversity at the UN etc., and of course Russian is an official UN language. The question is one of EXPEDIENCY. I doubt Nebenzya speaks fluent Chinese, or Portuguese for that matter. He probably speaks fluent English though, and so do a great many people on the planet, including many Chinese and Portuguese speakers. His target audience is also predominantly English-speaking (either native or as an acquired language), since he already has full support at home and the Chinese also seem to be on Russia’s side in this one.

          Relying on interpreters is always risky, something always gets lost in translation, and as we see here, sometimes it’s quite a lot and can ruin a speech entirely.

          Thus I believe for reasons of expediency in situations of utmost importance it’s better to address the target audience directly.

    • Tom Welsh

      Yes, I noticed that too. Utterly disgraceful.

      On the other hand, I am continually surprised by the sneaky underhand ways the Americans keep finding of getting around laws and treaties and conventions. When they choose not to ignore them completely, of course.

      I keep thinking of Al Capone and the Mafia, scaled up.

    • Merkin Scot

      “A live broadcast of the Russia Ambassador to the UNSC and the UN translator (sounds like an American teenager) is a complete fucking moron interpreting. You can not follow at all what the Russian Ambassador is saying clearly. Its all garbled erm umm ehh ahhhh by the translator.

      Is it deliberate?”
      When younger, I frequently sat with a bi-lingual family member who would show us exactly how Russian was mistranslated – whether in subtitled films or in live broadcasts. It is normal.

  • Sharp Ears

    Karen Pierce, the UK Ambassador to the UN, is keeping the anti-Russian pot well stirred. She’s been everywhere! She replaced Rycroft.

    She is married to Charles Roxburgh, Second Permanent Secretary at the Treasury. He was with McKinseys earlier in his career. The McKinsey name often appears in the CVs of the government stooges.

    • Strangerthings

      Suspect she is being lined up to be next Perm Sec, seeing as the FCO got a kicking for having an all male shortlist.

  • james

    listening to the russian ambassador and then the uk ambassador response this past 20 odd minutes has been informative… uk claiming russia is using chemical weapons in syria and other such juicy tidbits that one has to take on the word of the uk ambassador.. wow..

      • james

        it would seem the west wants to frame russia as the one using chemical weapons either in syria or london… the usa and the uk are on the same page… ”military grade nerve agents that exposed many potential innocent victims” , “we confirm our belief that russia is responsible for this”, “and our support for the uk” and etc. etc… no facts needed!

          • james

            porton down is the suspect that will never be brought into question.. that much is fairly clear, in spite of their history…

      • james

        it is starting to look a bit like the coalition of the unwilling at this point…

      • Roman_D

        My thoughts go in the same direction. Word is not said yet, but the coalition is there.

      • Merkin Scot

        “Tension mounts. Has the word ‘Coalition‘ been dropped yet…?”
        Don’t know about that. However, I did hear the word “allies” being flung about with gay abandon on the Beeb this morning.

  • Alan

    This is an absolutely fantastic piece. There is nothing concrete or certain in this case apart from the fact that what we are being publicly told is not true. The notion that the only possible explanation is a Kremlin ordered hit is beyond ridiculous. Not only for the insurmountable improbability of that idea but also for the countless other possibilities. The man ‘formerly’ worked as a Russian spy and a British spy at the same time. It’s not impossible that he is still involved with military intelligence, that he was in possession of the nerve agent and he simply mishandled it. If this agent was being used deliberately, or if the Kremlin ordered a hit of any kind, surely someone would be in a body bag. To me the ensuing scramble of the police and counterterrorism units looks less like well trained protocol and more like the panicked track covering of a lie.

    • Ray Raven

      He was never a Rooslie spy. He worked for a Rooskie agency.
      He spied for the UK. He was / probably still is a UK spy.
      Do you understand the difference.
      If now (the last 8 years whilst in the UK), he was spying for the Rooslies, he can technically be referred to as a double agent.
      One is not a spy just because the work for their country’s spy agency, even if he was handling other countries’ assets.

    • bj

      Curiouser and curiouser. So the dog had been reported missing, and has since been found.

    • JakeMorris

      That’s gruesome news. First real tragedy of this entire case, and not due to mythical Novichok, but banal hunger.

      Or was it?

      The Skripals’ house was thoroughly searched, it’s impossible they wouldn’t have found the animals well before death by hunger. Yet they kept mum about the pets, right up until Viktoria Skripal brought it up and the Russians said the pets should have been affected with Novichok had it been really used.

      Now all of a sudden pets are remembered, and what a surprise – they’re all dead, and their bodies incinerated, so no testing for Novichok is possible!

      After all the UK Gov’t has said and done in this case, I wouldn’t put it beyond them to get rid of the “living evidence” of their lies. If this was a TV show, it would be their “kick the dog” (kill the cat) moment that signifies utter, irredeemable villainy.

      • Made By Dom

        Agreed. The cat story is very suspicious. If it was an outdoor cat, it would have probably survived for a few weeks (most cats are quite good at fending for themselves). If it was an indoor cat then how did it not get spotted and starve?

        Being a nation of animal lovers, perhaps this is a white lie told by the authorities who had all the animals killed within hours of entering the house.
        What any animal doesn’t want to hear is ‘Don’t worry, the nice gentlemen from Porton Down will take good care of you’.

        • Barden Gridge

          The Sun reported on 17 March:

          Vet Howard Taylor, 56, said: “We phoned the police on day one to offer to help if they needed it.
          “I thought it unlikely the police would have gone to the house and not done anything.”
          He said of Mr Skripal: “He was a nice chap and we got on well.
          “He never said he was in fear for his life. He used the vets for some years and I had seen his cat and his guinea pigs.”

          The cat would have been found on the evening of the 4th. Unless it had a serious pre-existing condition, it could not have become “seriously malnourished” in the few hours since the Skripals went into Salisbury.
          They would have left water for it.
          Having spent so much to bring the cat into the country, I would think the Skripals would look after the cat well.
          Yet again, the official story looks like a pack of lies.

          • Barden Gridge

            It also occurs to me that Porton Down must have performed a post-mortem on the cat and guinea pigs to establish if they had been affected by the alleged nerve agent. If there had been any evidence of nerve agent in them, they would have made sure the world knew about it. So presumably there wasn’t. Shouldn’t there be statement from Porton Down about this? Including the reason for the cat becoming so “severely malnourished” in the few hours that it was alone that it had to be put down.
            And: it’s Porton Down FFS. They’re used to dealing with dangerous substances and dead test animals. Surely they would have kept the remains in secure cold storage in case further analyses were required.

      • Maureen

        Wasn’t the noble Nick Bailey first to go to the Skripal house. Why didn’t he immediately alert the authorities to the existence of pets
        Immediate incineration eh
        I would have thought they’d been valuable evidence if the house is ground zero
        Bloody stinks

      • Patrick Roden

        “The Skripals’ house was thoroughly searched,”

        And not one of the people searching the house touched the doorknob?
        No that’s strange!…or perhaps it’s not!

    • Christine

      Why didn’t they put the cat in a cat shelter? If it was malnourished it would have been looked after in there. That’s what responsible care for animals involves…namely being responsible

      • lysias

        Malnourished was just an excuse for disposing of potentially troublesome evidence. If the cat was loved as much as the reports say, malnourished was most unlikely.

        • knuckles

          The cat tried the front door (handle). The ‘military grade’ Novichok is a success. Now lets sing comrades;

          Ohhhh Nov-a-chok-a-chok-ie, Ohhhh Nov-a-chok-a-chok-ie
          Ohhhh Nov-a-chok-a-chok-ie, and that’s what its all a bout, bout, bout

          Put your right paw in, pull your right paw out,
          in, out, in, out, shake it all about…

  • RAC

    Thank you for doing such a grand job of informing us of the facts, wish there were a few more like you, especially in government, a place where truth is a bit thin on the ground.
    And if I was a CIA or MI6 chappy I’d have smeared the fake Russian stuff on the toilet seat, larger contact area and for a longer time.

  • Hamish Soutar

    Just a thought about the door handle: it was seriously cold here in Salisbury that weekend, I would imagine they’d have been wearing gloves.

  • giyane

    I didn’t know before that BumJob read Classics at Oxford. Clearly giving him the advantage of fluency in the dead language of British Gung-Ho, but how does it qualify him to make decisions at the Foreign Office?

  • Jones

    interesting that Yulia’s statement was released by met police AFTER the phone call between Yulia and Viktoria was made public, Yulia said the phone was a ‘temporary’ one !!

  • Smiling Through

    UN representative Karen Pierce appeared to say that Salisbury had been subjected to attack by a weapon of mass destruction.
    Anyone else hear that?

    • james

      yes – ditto john’s comment below.. she did say that…

      what i finding interesting in this question that the uk put to russia with a demand for a response within 24 hours is the nature of the question was a double bind… no matter how russia could answer it, they would be guilty either way!

      they had to respond to this within 24 hours… “Mr Speaker, there are therefore only two plausible explanations for what happened in Salisbury on the 4th of March. Either this was a direct act by the Russian State against our country. Or the Russian government lost control of this potentially catastrophically damaging nerve agent and allowed it to get into the hands of others.” guilty, or guilty.. take yer pick… no wonder russia skipped answering it!

    • Tom Welsh

      Yet another example of the systematic, deliberate devaluation of language.

      A “weapon of mass destruction” that destroyed absolutely nothing, and killed no one. A stiletto, handled with enthusiasm, would be more deadly. Or even a cosh.

      Why is a drop of “nerve agent” that kills no one more of a WMD than a 5-ton bomb or napalm or white phosphorus?

      I only ask because I want to know.

  • G.Bng

    Fox news at 4:31 (got the time through “Clean Print” has come out with the following title: “As Trump mulls a pullout, IS attempts to re-emerge in Syria”. Now since the security council appears to want to link Russia with CWs in Syria or the UK is that just another coincidence that IS resurfaces?

    • John Goss

      You could not shut up the British representative to the UN tonight on Syria and Russia and its assumed use of chemical weapons in that poor country where the west supported ISIS. She said that the reason the UK put pressure on Russia to respond within 48 hours (remember that?) was because a nerve agent was a weapon of mass destruction. She did not hold up a test tube like Colin Powell. But the message was the same and came from the same players.

      She never mentioned that at that time the alleged nerve agent used had not been identified then. It has been a farce from start to finish. So much shame has my country brought on my good name.

      • Agent Green

        The British representative appeared to be suffering some kind of brain injury. I can’t believe she would have said the things she said if she was sane.

        • John Goss

          Check the history books and you will find that empires in decline always have idiots at the helm backed up by cabinets of sycophantic yes-people.

          • Paul Barbara

            @ John Goss April 5, 2018 at 22:19
            Sure, but never before has an Empire in decline had the ability to destroy the world.
            And these Luciferian a**holes have just that capacity, and the willingness (desire?) to do just that.
            Makes perfect sense to me, a Christian.

    • G.Bng

      But even if correct, and I haven’t read it yet, would it account for the fact that two people with vastly different ages, sex, weight, constitution, health, and metabolism, suffered the effects of a nerve agent at precisely the same time?

      • Je

        Its best to read things first before you comment. Its a credible source, took me seconds to find, and Craig’s piece above regarding nerve agent necessariy acting quickly is uninformed.

        • bj

          It’s best to read previous comments before you comment; the gist of your remark has already been put forward by someone presenting him- or herself as having more knowledge than you lookup- and search capacities.
          Glad to assist.

          • Je

            Came to this thread late and too many comments to do that… I looked through all the pages for the word “capacities” as per your suggestion but my browser didn’t find it.

            I am a *complete ignoramous* about nerve agents… that’s why I quickly googled Craig’s assertion and found an authoritative source that tells a different story. I don’t think I need to check the comments here to verify that source… I trust it rather more…

          • Paul Barbara

            @ Je April 5, 2018 at 22:36
            So trust Collum already. Is the geezer lying, or are our ‘esteemed’ government and MSM lying?
            I know who I trust better.

        • Baron

          OK, JE, if you are right, the agent acts with delay, how do you explain (a) the doctor treated them with no antidote (b) they are still breathing?

      • Je

        PS… but I do notice despite me pointing out the completely wrong assumption made by Craig… instead of saying… oh, we’ve got that wrong then… you’re trying to wriggle somewhere else with it…

        • Dave

          This is an important point. Seems it’s the skin absorption that is delayed, not the action of the nerve agent itself. So it’s quite plausible that they could have gone about their day without any effects.

          • Crackerjack

            The other examples of people being poisoned with this stuff are a couple of Soviet scientists working on it and a Russian banker and his moll. They showed symptoms in short order from what I’ve managed to gather

        • G.Bng

          Sorry to have to correct you but I do not try to wriggle anywhere.

          I am my own person and an incorrigible skeptic by nature, indeed I never believe anything I hear or read without confirming it via many different sources. I have consistently in my comments on various media, here included, put forward my own thoughts and conclusions formed from what I have read, my own experiences and my research, and at least for me it is just too much of a coincidence that two very different people could suffer the effects of the toxin precisely at the same time unless the effects were immediately after delivery. To me it just doesn’t make sense and that is what I go with whatever Craig says or doesn’t say.

          And fwiw and for your information, I have now made a at least a cursory read of the information linked and was struck by the following:

          1) Victims whose skin or clothing is contaminated with LIQUID nerve agent can contaminate rescuers by direct contact or through off-gassing vapor.

          2) Persons whose skin is exposed ONLY to nerve agent VAPOR pose no risk of secondary contamination; however, clothing and hair can trap vapor.

          So, on that information and going with the official line of contamination at this time, i.e., some kind of gel on the front door handle, and from my own experience concluding that a gel is closer to a liquid than to a vapor, it appears that until it was known to be a nerve agent, according to my research at least not until several days later, all persons who attended the Skripals, (i.e., 2 passerby doctors, several first responders, the air ambulance team, the detective sergeant, and the hospital staff), were in extreme danger of being contaminated yet apparently none were except for the detective sergeant who it is said was contaminated when that same afternoon/evening he went to the house.

          Furthermore I note that the assertion you quote has been qualified with “may” so that it is not an absolute not even in the opinion of the experts that wrote it.

          • J

            The simplest conclusion would be that the detective exposed himself to the agent, whatever it was, during a botched attempt to assassinate the Skirpals.

        • G.Bng

          I forgot to clarify in my comment, that since your source states, “UP TO 18 HOURS”, I think most would agree that the longer the time space between physical contamination and effect makes it less likely that two very different people would suffer the effects at exactly the same time.

          The minimum time span of 3 hours that we know they could not have been at the home, and possibly longer since it is unknown when they were contaminated and if contemplating an 18 hour delayed effect it could have even been the night before when Yulia arrived, makes it nigh impossible, in my opinion at least, that they could have fallen sick at exactly the same time.

          • Je

            ” I think most would agree that ”

            Is this “most” of yours the most folk here (who know nothing about this really) kind of most… and who are playing inspector clouseau with all their non-knowledge… and making up conclusions like “nigh impossible, in my opinion at least, that they could have fallen sick at exactly the same time.” when they don’t know anything like enough about it…

          • bj

            But did the fall sick at the same time, or is that just an inference of them being found at the same time? We need to be precise.

          • Dumb Unicorn

            They almost certainly must have become sick at the same time. If one had become sick before the other, the other one would have gone for help. I can’t think of a situation where either one would have watched the other deteriorate in front of them and done nothing.

        • Made By Dom

          I’m all for debunking on this site and have got into trouble for doing it myself. I’m no expert either. But I don’t think Craig is talking about a general definition of a nerve agent. He’s going on the government’s own description of something similar to a Novichok that is ten times the strength of VX and is classified as Military Grade. God knows what that means but they tell us if we’ve all had symptoms of VX at some point.

          But I’m on your side. More source checking and a slightly more scientific approach is needed on this site.

    • JakeMorris

      So would you mind telling us in which cases a nerve agent’s effect would be delayed to 18 hours (or at least several hours) after contact with bare skin?

      In your link, VX is given as an example of a low-volatile nerve agent. According to OPCW, skin contact with 10 mg (0,01 g) of VX is lethal. Novichok, according to the BBC, is 5 to 8 times more toxic, so exposure to 0,002 grams would be lethal.

      Back to OPCW:

      Poisoning takes longer when the nerve agent enters the body through the skin. Nerve agents are more or less fat-soluble and can penetrate the outer layers of the skin. However, it takes some time before the poison reaches the deeper blood vessels. Consequently, the first symptoms do not occur until 20-30 minutes after the initial exposure but subsequently the poisoning process may be rapid if the total dose of nerve agent is high.

      So, considering an infinitesimally small drop of Novichok (0,002 g) is considered lethal dose, the Skripals should have exhibited symptoms after 20-30 minutes and rapidly succumbed to the poison. They would both be dead before even reaching The Mill pub, let alone having dinner at the Zizzi restaurants.

      Your link also says that “Treatment consists of supportive measures and repeated administration of nerve agent specific antidotes“. Porton Down Gary claimed they didn’t have an antidote for Novichok.

      So, how are the Skripals still alive and recovering, with no lasting health damage according to Yulia?

      That doesn’t look anything like an attempt of assassination with Novichok. Not by a long shot.

      • Je

        “So would you mind telling us in which cases a nerve agent’s effect would be delayed to 18 hours (or at least several hours) after contact with bare skin?”

        HOW WOULD I KNOW? I’m going by what that (very authoritative source says). You’d have to ask them.

        ” However, it takes some time before the poison reaches the deeper blood vessels. Consequently, the first symptoms do not occur until 20-30 minutes after the initial exposure but subsequently the poisoning process may be rapid if the total dose of nerve agent is high.”

        That contradicts Craig totally for starters doesn’t it?

        “So, considering an infinitesimally small drop of Novichok (0,002 g) is considered lethal dose, the Skripals should have exhibited symptoms after 20-30 minutes”

        You’re making this up/guessing/piecing together things – and I don’t think you know any more about this than I do…

        “Your link also says that “Treatment consists of supportive measures and repeated administration of nerve agent specific antidotes“. Porton Down Gary claimed they didn’t have an antidote for Novichok.”

        That’s cause they’re not referring to different agents – even *I* know that one. And that 0,002 g isn’t “infinitesimally small”..

        • JakeMorris

          The most “authoritative” source – OPCW – states that when a lethal dose of even low volatility nerve agents such as VX is applied through skin, it’s 20-30 minutes before onset of symptoms, and then a quick death unless a specific antidote is administered.

          Novichok is said to be 5-8 times more toxic than VX. Therefore, lethal dose and/or time to succumb would be even smaller. With the same amount as VX (0,01 g), presumably the reaction time would be cut significantly.

          Yet the Skripals had time and capacity for a multi hour pub crawl after exposure to supposedly “deadliest nerve agent known to man” applied by a “professional assassin” who followed a “murder handbook”. And they’re not dead, not even incapacitated, not even (according to Yulia) suffering the long-term health effects associated with exposure to non-lethal doses of nerve agent.

          Nothing says this was an actual attempted murder with a Novichok, or any comparable nerve agent for that matter. But it does look incredibly like a false flag, a coverup, or both.

    • John Spencer-Davis

      Apparently the delay in effects following exposure depends on the dose, not unnaturally.

      “Persistent agents like VX present more of a liquid contact hazard. The onset of effects following exposure can be delayed from 10 minutes to 18 hours after contact with the agent, depending on the dose. With military grade purity the LD 50 for VX is 10 mg, a droplet the size of the head of a pin.” (My emphasis).

      These Novichok horrors are supposed to be more lethal than VX, so it seems pretty unlikely that a military grade agent would delay all that long, unless the dose was tiny. Afraid I don’t know what this LD 50 means though. J

      • Je

        Looks like lethal dose for 50% of the population… you guys (and Craig) really need to work on your search skills…

        “These Novichok horrors are supposed to be more lethal than VX, so it seems pretty unlikely that a military grade agent would delay all that long, unless the dose was tiny.”

        This is your back of an envelope “pretty unlikely” isn’t it?

      • Je

        John Spencer-Davis

        From your link we have:

        ” small dose – A very fine droplet on the skin will cause fasciculations and diaphoresis
        under the droplet site. There will be no pinpoint pupils. ”

        That’s sweating and contraction of nerve fibres under the droplet. Porton Down used to
        run tests with real nerve agents on service personnel. The picture an “infinitesimally small”
        dose killing anyone quickly is nonsense… a three hour delay is well within the 18 hours given
        by that site… totally plausible. Craig’s got it wrong.

        • John Spencer-Davis

          Shrug. The whole matter is so uncertain it didn’t seem necessary to search into it further. It’s a question of weighing likelihoods, isn’t it? How likely is it that a serious attempt at murder resulted in an absorption into the skin of such a tiny dose that there was a very substantial delay in it taking effect, and yet the dose was serious enough to warrant life-saving treatment at a hospital? I suppose that’s possible, but it doesn’t sound all that likely. Your back of an envelope and mine don’t agree, that’s all.

          Someone on here made the suggestion that a skin dose transferred to an ingested dose precisely because the Skripals went and had a meal. That seems a very sensible suggestion to me. It would explain why they were taken ill at more or less the same time. J

    • IM

      The variability of onset (minutes to hours) is for the whole class of liquid nerve agents (genera), *not* variability within a specific one.

  • Paedo Hunter

    It’s almost pointless even discussing this matter anymore….from what I’ve seen on #Twatter…..there is clearly us that don’t believe a word of UK Govs rhetoric…..and them (Daniel Hannan MP, Piers Morgan (Millie Dowler phone hacker)…..and plenty ordinary plebs and sheeple who pretty much toe the party line and laugh at us ‘conspiracy’ theorists….clearly the national divide is beyond repair as to the Left…..and what the Left calls us (Racist Fascist Right Wingers)….when all we are are people of more sound and questioning minds who clearly call for evidence, and when that evidence is not forthcoming, then we look at the statements made, and when those statements start to conflict themselves, then we see there are lies being told…..and the Bigger the lie, the harder it is too keep up the Lie

    • Crackerjack

      Reminder that Jeremy Corbyn is the only politician to have questioned the Government lie so far. I think he’s left 🙂

      • Crackerjack

        But I agree. The nation is being bombarded with pure lies and propaganda. This will make their inevitable fall all the greater. The truth is slowly coming out

      • Paul Barbara

        @ Crackerjack April 5, 2018 at 22:26
        Nah, he’s not left. He’s still kicking, and on the ball! Oh, you mean ‘Left Wing’ – well, what should a Labour Party leader be, other than that? He’s got a heart of gold, and cares for the people, not for getting his snought in the trough.

  • Tatyana

    Hello, Mr. Murray. I’m russian, I’ve listened to the phone conversation here (30 min)
    It was stated by tv hosts that the call took place the day before, April 4, in the evening. It was Julia who called, Viktoria was receiving the call. They also stated Viktoria gave the record of the call directly for this tv-channel, so they can only proof the fact of passing the record, not origin of it.
    As a native russian, I can say it was definitely a chuckle, I’d say an ironic smirk (you know the sound ‘khm-khm’ as if Julia was cleaning her throat and then raising her tone a bit to some more firm and I guess sarcastic? tone)
    ‘you know what the situation is -kghm- Long story short, everything is OK’
    It was obvious the both women were not free to speak.
    Thanks for your observations and your opinion on what’s going on 🙂

  • Alex

    Craig, your translation is accurate. Victoria says “if they give me a visa tomorrow, I’ll come to see you”, Yulia then replies “no one will give you a visa”, then Victoria says “yes, I thought so myself, but anyways if they do give me a visa, and I request to see you, you must say yes”, to which Yulia replies “I don’t think so… in this situation, you know how it is…”

  • Winifred Kiddle

    By the way it’s not only the Russians who leave ‘shit’ on door handles when they are wanting to harm someone. And yes the effect is pretty instantaneous. The New Zealand spooks/deep state/police cowboys also use this tactic. Perhaps it was really New Zealanders who did the dastardly deed. Motive – because they’ve done it before. Because Russia is making trade with New Zealand too difficult. Like a triple cross cross. And our PM did agree with May and her crowing about Russia did it.

  • JakeMorris

    Russian Ambassador to the UN is now reading Alice in Wonderland in front of the Security Council.

    This has officially crossed into the realm of the absurd now.

    Duly appreciating the Russians’ sense of humor, I still think they’d be better served with a more factual approach, rather than descending to the Western chorus’ level of insanity.

    • John Goss

      The poor guy tried long enough to get an adult approach to the business. He is probably doing this because he thinks it is the only thing the UK and US will understand.

    • Agent Green

      The Russians have considered the Western powers to be non-agreement capable (to use a Russian phrase).

      They have essentially given up trying to get any sense out of them.

      • Paul Barbara

        @ Agent Green April 5, 2018 at 22:12
        Why on earth the Russians don’t use the Operation Hades and the Gladio attacks to expose the obvious ‘smear’ campaign beats me.
        I emailed the Russian Ambassador, and got no response. So he should respond to me, already? No, perhaps not, especially if my email got ‘diverted’. So, such a thing, already! There is more than one way to skin a cat (not that I’m into skinning cats, I am a cat-lover).

    • Paul Barbara

      @ JakeMorris April 5, 2018 at 21:49
      All they need to do is remind the world of ‘Operation Hades’, and the Gladio program, of ‘framing’ the Soviet Union.

  • IM

    Anyone else noticed that the onset of symptoms/signs doesn’t add-up the Skripals took ages to get to the state of intoxication from whatever toxin, yet the onset happened almost immediately with the DS (the policeman) who attended?

    • Dave

      Commenter “Je” posted a link above to an article claiming that onset of symptoms is quite variable when liquid nerve agents are absorbed through the skin. Anywhere between minutes and 18 hours after contact with skin. Not sure why such variability though

      • IM

        You’d think “a military grade” toxin has a deterministic mode of function…

        • Dave

          But I guess it may be variability in the victim’s skin biology, i.e., rate of absorption that is at play here? Also, dose considerations as someone pointed out above, i.e., how much managed to transfer from the door handle (allegedly) to the skin.

          • IM

            Ok, but the DS would’ve been exposed to it for much shorter time and if he was “feeling things up” with his hands he would’ve had gloves on either the purple ones for non-contamination or the black ones that they use for handling/skin puncture/blade protection, that’s just standard OP.

          • Kiza

            The strongest argument against delayed poison action is that two people of quite different body constitution experienced instantaneous and catastrophic body failure at exactly the same time, so that neither could call for help. What are the chances that each would get just exactly the (very small but) right those that both would fail at the same time by an extremely random act of touching the doorknob surface or gloves that touched the knob surface. Would not such probability be infinitesimally close to zero? This is typical of the proponents of the HMG versions – selective acceptance of theories, even when they make little or no sense at all. As someone pointed out, at a high dose of poison simultaneous reaction would be normal, but the longer the delay the more pronounced the body differences would be.

            The doorknob theory is dumb to the extreme.

      • IM

        As a follow up: the NIH article “Je” posted talks about variability of onset between groups of toxins, not variability of the same specific toxin; first line talks about general class, whereas subsequent points talks about specific cases.

      • SO.

        Depends on a bunch of stuff.

        Temp, humidity, volume of agent, dermal area covered and importantly the particular part of the body exposed.

        An agent like VX in it’s liquid form would have to be first absorbed through the skin, work it’s way through subdermal layers, fat etc to get to blood vessels by which it can make it’s way to damage the entire system.

        If a droplet is applied to an area with thick skin, low or restricted capillary count or the presence of a quantity of subcutaneous fat it will take much longer to work it’s way through to the circulatory system hence symptoms will be delayed.

        (gaseous or misted agents are rapidly absorbed through wet membranes like the eyes nose throat and lungs which is why they get breathing first ~ wouldn’t recommend swallowing them either)

        If you’re curious btw, it’s 10mg VX covering 1 square cm of skin get’s you on average 50% of 70kg human standard incapacitated within 30 minutes and dead within 50. ~ on average.

        Hope that helps.


        • IM

          Ok, but think about your own argument: the Skripals would’ve been exposed to the toxin for a longer period than the DS yet the onset is reversed (setting aside, as I said before, that any attending PC/PS/DC/DS would’ve been trained to glove up at the scene).

        • IM

          2/ on top of that, the toxin would’ve been on the scene for extended period of time by the time the DS got there so would’ve evaporated/diffused/degraded over that time so the concentration would’ve been reduced, yet (again) the onset is reversed between the DS and the Skripals.

    • Paul Barbara

      @ IM April 5, 2018 at 22:14
      Good point. I hadn’t twigged that, and I suspect not many others have.

      • IM

        Plausible, but this is the point that was made at the UNSC today- why [would Russia] choose such a dangerous [for the poisoner] method of assassination when much safer ones can be used?

        • Crackerjack

          Particularly when Putin and the OPCW announced late last year that Russia has destroyed all of their Bio and Chem weapons. Putin was very proud of that and reminded the world that the US still hadn’t done so.

          To think he would then use them (and so risk getting caught out as a liar) to kill a 3rd rate no mark when he could have had him killed in any other way (if this ridiculous nonsense of him wanting to make an example is to be believed) is beyond absurd.

          He is also about to host the World Cup – a Blue Riband sporting event watched by billions of people. What timing!

          • IM

            The whole “Russia has been secretly stockpiling `Novichok’ and exposed that super-secret stockpile to almost(!) kill(?) someone who has been pardoned nearly a decade ago having served time in prison and retained Russian citizenship with relatives over in Russia” is simply beyond risible.

        • J

          Yes. Why would Russia, at a state level anyway, need to do any of this? They just won a fighting war and a propaganda war against America (and minions) with less than 1 twelfth of the budget.

          I don’t know about anybody else but that alone changes the way I view this affair (as someone without specialist knowledge of any kind.) Thinking about it, I don’t understand how Russia could do that unless with some degree of good will toward them, if not shrewd diplomacy and political skill. Whatever else is said about them, even at a distance they’re making our elite look very pale by comparison.

  • Ron

    The major point is that if you are rendered unconscious by a so-called Military nerve agent, then you will not recover for many months years, and possibly never. Huge damage has been inflicted on the brain and recovery is very slow and uncertain. Possibly, the two Russians left the house that morning and were given a Mickey Finn in the coffee bar. They fell asleep on the Park bench and were taken to a facility where they were cared for by cooperating staff, and put to sleep till the flap died down. The front door and the park bench etc were sprayed with a small amount of nerve agent (all these nerve agents are cholinesterase inhibitors) that was not enough to hurt anyone. The Russians are now awake and have been told that they were poisoned by Russian nerve agent. However, perhaps they don’t have the requisite symptoms, from which you just don’t really recover. When the Russians are released then can be tested for cognitive changes and peripheral EMG changes etc which will show conclusively if they were ever exposed to nerve agent at all. I suspect that they were not exposed. This could be a false flag operation designed to make Putin look bad. This type of operation requires very smart people with wide biological and chemical knowledge who understand all the facts and implications of this unique toxicology and delivery potential. When the events unfold the perps may be exposed as total amateurs.

    I have been watching this play out – I read all the articles and statements by everyone – the only statements that hold up and sound rational are the remarks coming from Putin and his boys and from Craig above – the thought that you can do a mass spec on this stuff and tell where it came from and if it is “military Grade” is total BS. What is Military Grade anyhow ? Special purity ? I don’t think so. It is just two words designed to bamboozle the public into thinking that this is made in Russia. In summary, if you are rendered unconscious by a real nerve agent you do not recover, at least not for years. And then you will have permanent cognitive effects. Not to mention the possible life-threatening peripheral effects on the skeletal muscles etc which can be accurately measured for months. I feel sure that the Brits will not let these Russians out of their sight for a long time. They may be possession of too much contradictory evidence that suggests a plot without nerve agent.

    • Salford Lad

      The investigation by the OPCW is crucial to clarify the Skripal ‘event’. However the chain of custody of sample locations has long been in the hands of the British Authorities.
      How can it be verified that the park bench scene of the crime ,the home.including door knob, the Skripal blood samples and car have not been ‘salted’ by the British authorities to give the ‘Novichok’ verdict.
      OPCW are latecomers to the event and their conclusions cannot at this stage be verifiable on present available evidence.
      The survival of the Skripals and involvement of DS Bailey raise more questions than answers.
      The tardiness in which the British involved the OPCW is suspicious and indicates a delaying tactic while the requisite ‘salting’ was prepared.
      Indications are that the Skripals were involved in this hoax.

    • Tatyana

      I think all the news are worded carefully to contain key-terms ‘Russia’ ‘chemical weapons’ ‘military’ ‘on the UK soil’

  • Guy Benians

    Bernard Saunders, who made Sarin during WW2, described its effects on him. He and his team exposed themselves to it, he walked upstairs to his office and began to write up the trial and then noticed it getting dark. He got up and put on the light. It carried on getting dark so he phoned his coworkers, who said they were going blind. Only after that did the convulsions begin. So it was a fairly slow-acting poison.

  • Dr. Ip

    Annie Machon is on the case as well:
    Sergei Skripal — some of my interviews
    Posted on March 28, 2018

    Ever since the story broke on 5th March about the strange case of the poisoning the former MI6 agent and Russian military intelligence officer, Sergei Skripal, I have been asked to do interview after interview, commenting on this hideous case.

    Of course, as the case developed the points I made also evolved, but my general theme has remained consistent: that, despite the immediate UK media hysteria that “it must be the Russians”, we needed to let the police and intelligence agencies the space and time to get on and build up an evidential chain before the UK government took action.

    Unfortunately, this has not come to pass, with the UK encouraging its allies in an unprecedented wave of mass diplomatic expulsions around the world. One might say that perhaps Theresa May has some shit-hot secret intelligence with which to convince these allies. But intelligence is not evidence and, as we all too painfully remember from the Iraq War débâcle in 2003, any intelligence can be spun to fit the facts around a pre-determined policy, as was revealed in the leaked Downing Street Memo.

    Anyway, from the bottom up in terms of chronology, here are a few of the interviews I have managed to harvest from the last few, crazy weeks. More will be added as they come in. And here are a couple of extras: a BBC Breakfast News item and a Talk Radio interview.

    A longer and more detailed article will follow shortly.

  • A Biochemist Writes

    [ Mod: You also posted on this thread as Nothern Tribesman. From the moderation rules for commenters:

    …. the adoption of multiple identities within the same thread is not to be allowed.

    Please use one identity only. ]

    Its clear that the UK Regime expected both of them to die.

    Now that Yulia is alive and talking – and according to her – her father is improving – the Brits are shitting themselves – effectively holding them hostage and – they hoped – incommunicado. Viktoria has scuppered that.

    Interesting interview with Viktoria by (security asset??) Gabrial Gtaehouse on BBC Newsnight tonight. Interestingly, they did not broadcast the full content of the original conversation between the cousins on the (almost certainly spurious grounds) that they couldn’t be sure that it was genuine – and that Yulia’s confidentiality was at risk.

    And yet Viktoria confirmed to gatehouse that the tape was genuine and that Yulia was indeed her correspondent – and that her voice was ‘normal’.

    Curiouser and curiouser.

    • J

      Would all the available evidence be explained by the detective exposing himself to the as yet unknown agent in the course of attempting to murder the Skirpals with it?

  • Made By Dom

    As others have mentioned, the Skripal Cat story seems really significant to me.

    Admittedly, the main source appears to be The Sun but I can’t see why they would lie.

    Porton Down Scientists claim the cat was malnourished and had to be put down. The cat was then incinerated. As an afterthought, they mentioned concerns of contamination. That strikes me as very odd. Why not just say the cat was poisoned? My suspicion is, if they’d diagnosed the cat with symptoms of poisoning they’d have to preserve tissue and blood samples of the cat as evidence.
    Perhaps they did do this. I’ve only got the Sun’s version of the story.

    Obviously, Porton Down scientists do terrible things to animals on a regular basis and they might just be complete psychos who are incapable of feeding a cat…. but, even if you’re a sick bastard, you don’t just incinerate evidence, do you?

    • John Goss

      They got rid of the table, do your remember, the one “so badly contaminated it had to be destroyed”/ Although I paraphrase it was soemthing like that. Sick bastards do anything. Ask David Kelly. Oh, sorry, I forgot. He’s no longer with us.

    • Tom Welsh

      This is off the wall, but I am reminded of an old episode of the TV series “Luther”. A young woman kills her parents – basically because she doesn’t like them and she believes she is far too clever for the police to catch. Turns out she shot them with a plastic gun and hid it inside the body of the family dog (which she had shot several times make a convenient hole). The dog was duly cremated, and the gun with it.

      Maybe it occurred to me because so many of the details of this case seem to have been pinched from TV, movies or novels.


  • John Goss

    “Can somebody explain to me the scenario in which two people both touch the exterior door handle in exiting and closing the door? ” Craig Murray.

    That might be true, there is only usually one who closes the door. It can be opened by both entering at different times of course but then the WMD might be all over the house. However I think I’ve cracked it. He closed the door behind them and shook hands with Yulia like father and daughter often do. “You can’t be serious!” John, you can’t be serious!

    Anyway I’m pleased to see they are both recovering, providing Yulia continues to deny Russian consular access. According to the statement of Karen Pierce “we” have received a request from the Russian government to grant Yulia a meeting with the consul of her country and “we” are waiting for Yulia to respond to this. Can you imagine it? The poor lass, like Sleeping Beauty, has only recently been awakened from a medically-induced coma, and they gave her a phone with the strict instructions that her father’s induced coma could be permanent.

    Unfortunately she spilled the beans. “My dad’s great. Me too. We’re coming home soon Vicky.”

    “Fuck” said Boris Johnson, “Fuck” said Theresa May. “Fuck” said UK Intelligence. “She’s fucked us up” said the Queen of Hearts. But Alice in this make-believe land said the right thing. “We’re good. Really Good”. The Police want us to say “We’re disoriented, But in fact we’re good. Very Good. We’re so good in fact that soon we will be coming home. All this is because I was smart enough not to mention that I am disoriented.”

    So there you have it.

  • freierdenker

    Still the simpler explanation is what we were told in the beginning, that a nerve agent came from Russia through Yulia. If this is the case, by now the Russian government must have got the culprits, they must know exactly what happened and they can prove it at any time, and they play cat and mouse with the British. Hence the jibes about Poirot and Midsommer murders.

    DSTL is not a chemical weapons establishment as you write, it is the equivalent of DARPA. I suppose someone brought Aitkenhead to expand their electronics portfolio.

    • IM

      DSTL is an institution not “one lab,” do look up what specific lab DSTL have at Porton Down.

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