My world view changed forever when, after 20 years in the Foreign Office, I saw colleagues I knew and liked go along with Britain’s complicity in the most terrible tortures, as detailed stunningly in the recent Parliamentary Intelligence and Security Committee Report. They also went along with keeping the policy secret, deliberately disregarding all normal record taking procedures, to the extent that the Committee noted:
131. We note that we have not seen the minutes of these meetings either: this causes us great concern. Policy discussions on such an important issue should have been minuted. We support Mr Murray’s own conclusion that were it not for his actions these matters may never have come to light.
The people doing these things were not ordinarily bad people; they were just trying to keep their jobs, comforting themselves with the thought that they were only civil servants obeying orders. Many were also actuated by the nasty “patriotism” that grips in time of war, as we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. Almost nobody in the FCO stood up against the torture or against the illegal war – Elizabeth Wilmshurst, Carne Ross and I were the only ones to leave over it.
I then had the still more mortifying experience of the Foreign Office seeking to punish my dissent by bringing a series of accusations of gross misconduct – some of them criminal – against me. The people bringing the accusations knew full well they were false. The people investigating them knew they were false from about day 2. But I was put through a hellish six months of trial by media before being acquitted on all the original counts (found guilty of revealing the charges, whose existence was an official secret!). The people who did this to me were people I knew.
I had served as First Secretary in the British Embassy in Poland, and bumped up startlingly against the history of the Holocaust in that time, including through involvement with organising the commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. What had struck me most forcibly was the sheer scale of the Holocaust operation, the tens of thousands of people who had been complicit in administering it. I could never understand how that could happen – until I saw ordinary, decent people in the FCO facilitate extraordinary rendition and torture. Then I understood, for the first time, the banality of evil or, perhaps more precisely, the ubiquity of evil. Of course, I am not comparing the scale of what happened to the Holocaust – but evil can operate on different scales.
I believe I see it again today. I do not believe that the majority of journalists in the BBC, who pump out a continual stream of “Corbyn is an anti-semite” propaganda, believe in their hearts that Corbyn is a racist at all. They are just doing their job, which is to help the BBC avert the prospect of a radical government in the UK threatening the massive wealth share of the global elite. They would argue that they are just reporting what others say; but it is of course the selection of what they report and how they report it which reflect their agenda.
The truth, of which I am certain, is this. If there genuinely was the claimed existential threat to Jews in Britain, of the type which engulfed Europe’s Jews in the 1930’s, Jeremy Corbyn, Billy Bragg, Roger Waters and I may humbly add myself would be among the few who would die alongside them on the barricades, resisting. Yet these are today loudly called “anti-semites” for supporting the right to oppose the oppression of the Palestinians. The journalists currently promoting those accusations, if it came to the crunch, would be polishing state propaganda and the civil servants writing railway dockets. That is how it works. I have seen it. Close up.
Are Israeli protests against the new national law the new anti-Semitism?
Police/Homeland security are criticized by a judge in Memphis for setting up fake social-media accounts to track and infiltrate ‘innocent’ people who they consider “activists” and others. In UK , I haven’t heard of any similar criticism, so I imagine there aren’t covert social media accounts analyzing & tracking everything? UK would never do that.
https://eu.commercialappeal.com/story/news/2018/08/10/aclu-wins-favorable-ruling-judge-advance-memphis-police-spying-trial/964215002/
There is such a great increase in homelessness and ‘rough sleeping’, so much so that Brokenshire is pledging £100m to find homes for those unfortunate not to have a roof over their heads. £100m is a paltry amount.
£100m drive to end rough sleeping in England by 2027
New strategy will offer mental health and addiction support, says communities secretary
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/aug/11/100m-drive-to-end-rough-sleeping-in-england-by-2027
Meanwhile, some have THREE roofs over their heads, namely the former PM/spiv David Cameron. There is one in Witney, another in Notting Hill and now one in Cornwall at Daymer. He has acquired a £2m holiday home there and has added another shepherd’s hut to his collection. He already has one in Witney in which he is scribbling away on his ‘memoirs’. Does he not appreciate that the market for such an auto biography’ will be tiny – journos and relics from the Tory partei? So do not bother Dave.
David Cameron buys second pricey shepherd’s hut this time for his Cornwall holiday home
The former Prime Minister, 51, posed for publicity shots with his £25,000 garden retreat last year
https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/david-cameron-buys-second-pricey-1887110
Unreal.
Just sickening.
And a lot of people will vote for them.
and good on Denis Skinner for pointing out what Cameron was doing on his property financing – writing off his Notting Hill mortgage, running his Witney home on expenses, etc ‘Dodgy Dave’ indeed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su4SE0IJDYY
See Cameron, Osborne and Grayling squirming. What a seedy bunch.
I agree. Life’s bloody unfair. I mean, you got single people living in bloody great big houses and and homeess teenagers and families on the street.
The French are apparently encouraging a scheme whereby single old people offer free accomodation to homeless young people (one at a time, by the way); in return they get company, extra security and someone to help with some of the everyday tasks, eg the shopping and so on. All this is purely informal, no contracts or anything like that. Simple and eminently practical!
It seems those schemes are catching on in France because both parties consider them to be win-win.
What a pity that nobody in position to help appears to be doing anything like that here in Britain!, there must be lots of them!
“If any readers know which Labour Party big wig spotted lil ole Jack’s talents as he taught maths and sat on a District Council and thought ‘we must make that man General Secretary of the Scottish Labour Party’, please do let me know.”
http://www.drsallybaker.com/uncategorized/a-vortex-of-eternal-shame/#comment-73465
Can the US Keep Lying About Israel’s Nukes?
A judge must soon decide
August 10, 2018
Governmental lying by omission involves intentionally leaving out important facts to foster broad popular misconceptions. In 2012 the Obama administration promulgated a gag order in the form of a secrecy classification guideline – WNP-136 (PDF) – banning all federal agency employees and contractors from discussing, writing about, or releasing government information about Israel’s nuclear weapons program.
When two agencies enforcing the gag order received a Freedom of Information Act request in 2015, they released WNP-136 only after redacting most of the content.
Backers of the gag order hope to undermine informed public debate about nuclear proliferation in the Middle East, ongoing illicit transfers of know-how, material and technology from the US to Israel, to maintain a spotlight on Iran as the region’s nuclear proliferation threat as well as quell debate about whether the US is truly a champion of nuclear non-proliferation. But the overarching purpose of WNP-136, curiously titled “Guidance on Release of Information Relating to the Potential for an Israeli Nuclear Capability,” is even more nefarious. The core objective behind WNP-136 is to perpetuate a single massive and ongoing violation of US law.’
/..
https://original.antiwar.com/smith-grant/2018/08/09/can-the-us-keep-lying-about-israels-nukes/
Netanyahu and the rest of the Zionists will do their best to stop Iran developing nuclear weapons. Israel has never signed up to the non-proliferation treaty.
‘Israel is not a party to any of the major treaties governing WMD non-proliferation, including the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT), the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), and the Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention (BTWC).’
Remembering the very brave man, Mordechai Vanunu.
Mordechai Vanunu gets 18 years for treason – archive, 1988
28 March 1988: Vanunu gave the Sunday Times details of his eight years employment at a top-secret nuclear research centre in Israel
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/28/mordechai-vanunu-israel-spying-nuclear-1988
His story and how they trapped him in Rome. Clubbed, drugged and taken.
https://thearabdailynews.com/2018/07/03/mordechai-vanunu-and-32-years-of-security-risks/
One for loony.
“if Stalin committed crimes I want to know about it – So far even single one iv investigated has turned out to be …False”
Anti-Communist ‘Academia’ ALL LIES – Interview with Prof Grover Furr – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJNjwxcjDn8
every* single one.
Some very good points here about Evidence. Reminds me of the recent poisoning case.
Grover Furr on the conspiracies against Joseph Stalin – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJNjwxcjDn8
If the Amiens Genuflection and dissing Boris isn’t sufficient to put CCO over the top of the forty-eight letters I can only conclude that Corbynphobia has induced rigor mortice in Tory Wets, now well cemented into the May Imperium.
Covering the face in public is a sign of the country going backwards, as are many things, but an outright ban is impractical and excessive due to the small number involved. Better to administratively discourage its use by requiring it to be removed as appropriate and of course once removed it becomes a bit silly to keep wearing them.
But it seems attacking ‘Muslims’ is deemed the safe way for the “Right” to oppose immigration as it plays to the neo-con narrative, but its a bit self-defeating as its the neo-con wars that has led to the migration crisis in the first place.
Salman Rushdie was hunted before the neo con wars; 9/11 happened before. Pakistan split bloodily from India in 1947 because a group of Muslims didn’t want to be a big minority besides Hindus. Never heard of the Moplah “rebellion” in 1921? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malabar_rebellion#Nature_of_crimes Or read how the Ottoman empire became > 80% Muslim while it started off as minority Muslim. Or how Afghanistan was Buddhist before.
The neo cons just re-woke the Islam dragon for their r(l)oyal Saudi buddies recently, and managed the MSM, “Left” and Center to hush up all the above for the sake of Fake History.
Its all about the money, money, money, NOT to make the world dance….
The Abrahamic religions with their single life view (no one gets reborn) stimulate the greedy ego to grab it all in this single chance, hurry!
as if the US ant other western countries have not dabbled in the Middle East before 9/11…god you are clueless
Calm down… what is your point of argument Skyblaze?
Or read V.S. Naipaul’s 1981 book ‘Among the Believers’.
“Covering the face in public is a sign of the country going backwards,”
That’s a hell of a blanket statement to make. So was Occupy going backward with the Guy fawks mask?
Your specifically taking about what? Those cases where it’s forced? In the “muslim traditions” ..Or what about the j-ish ? Or what about face painting?
“To generalise is to be an idiot” William blake. ..It can just as easy be described, A country where it’s ok do anything you like with yourself is going forward. You have no right to tell me what’s progress or not. Let alone those who would force their view on others.
Maybe in these days of ubiquitous mass surveillance it will become a critical human right, not to be monitored or identified by those (one assume’s) people like you give authority to over us to. You have no idea how things are going to go do you?
It’s not just taking away “their” rights, it taking away yours, Our children’s.
What about the right of innocent individuals to privacy? The people who advocate this are highly dangerous to freedom & civil liberties across society.
Once you can “justify” it to one small segment of one group, do people think the government will stop their? When have they EVER not abused the power people give them?
Your comparisons with Occupy masks and face-painting are fundamentally and intellectually dishonest.
No they are not.
@Observer, they are indeed, because this is yet more disingenuous obfuscation, to mask (forgive the pun), the fact that Wahhabism (originating from Saudi Arabia, is now rife in the Middle East, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and large parts of Africa). It is currently the most extreme form of Islam, and the Imams themselves who practice that form of Islam have stated, time after time that Islam is not compatible with democracy.
As an extreme form of Islam, it is responsible for the most extreme dress codes FORCED on women and the horror which is FGM. Even in the UK, women living in these communities are FORCED to wear this dress, are FORCED into arranged marriages. They often suffer phsycological and physical threats if they are seen to be going “off track” outside the parameters of the strict shariah – there are shariah courts in the UK.
I am very fortunate that for 27 years I have been happily married to a lovely, intelligent woman from a Shia Muslim family, and I have been welcomed into their family.
No they are not.
And they are fully compatible according to our government who support the leading exporting state… It works for them as a way to chip away at our liberties for capitalist class control. & imperial domination of the globe.
To lump all muslim face covering together as forced is dishonest.
Again this is how it “works” like the “muslim terrorist”, take small cases and all must follow. We’ll all have statutory guilty until proven innocent before we know it. “Terrorist” monitoring as a rule (that we do already in many areas). That will of corse be used as IT IS, for environmental & civil liberties activists etc. Anyone who threatens the imperialist capitalists.
Andyoldlabour
But why attack those wearing the Burka rather than the font of extremism? Is it not our government that will not dare to say a word against the salafist regime in KSA? Isn’t Blair one of the beneficiaries of largesse from the Gulf monarchies as thier adviser? The real intellectual dishonesty I am afraid is taking sides with BJ the hypocrit.
@SA,
I am fully in agreement with you on this. It is totally unacceptable for Bojo the clown to make cheap jibes at the women, rather than at the despotic regime who we are only too happy to sell weapons to.
However, it is still a fact that the majority of women (in certain Muslim communities in the UK) have no choice whatsoever when it comes to dress and what they are allowed to wear. It is dictated to them by men.
Multiculturalism trumps feminism for the progressive left. Every time.
Or should I say regressive left as they seem to want women to be dehumanized and only be seen in binbags.
I know we are in agreement but the whole point is that this is a cheap target to try to fight women’s freedoms and is used merely for political point scoring. In these societies you describe men are also not so free, nor in other parts of society have many people freedom to eat healthy food. To give you an example, you don’t attempt to highlight childhood obesity by saying: oh look at that boy he looks like a beer barrel, do you? This would be considered not only offensive but also counterproductive. I am not denying that muslim women who belong to more extreme sects are constrained but this is not a religious thing and is unfortunately getting worse because of the increased pre-eminence of Saudi Wahhabism.
SA
Just look at the mental contortions you go through to make everything “our fault”.
@ Anon1 August 12, 2018 at 16:02
No contortions necessary – it almost invariably IS the West’s fault. These Medieval ‘Kingdoms’ and ‘Sheikdoms’ wouldn’t last six months, if six days, without the West’s ‘protection’ (for a cost).
And the Wahhabi ‘terrorists’ are used as our proxy ‘terrorists’ to destabilise and bring down governments we don’t like:
Libya and Syria are excellent examples (though they haven’t succeeded in Syria, thanks mainly to Russia but also to Hezbollah and Iran.
See ‘France’s Roland Dumas tells how Syria’s Destruction was planned in advance’:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWKA2ffECUg
Anon 1
‘Mental contortions’ based on facts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_history_of_Saudi_Arabia
https://twitter.com/markcurtis30?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Now my challenge to you is simple: prove to me that what you state about contortions is correct, with or without links. You have two hours.
More than two hours have passed. Anon 1 no show.
Paul wrote: These Medieval ‘Kingdoms’ and ‘Sheikdoms’ wouldn’t last six months, if six days, without the West’s ‘protection’ (for a cost).
They survived and thrived since the Middle ages not only in the Arabian desert but conquered half the globe permanently. Their ideology was and is ‘take no prisoners’ after their illiterate but black magical founder. They tried to take the West many times (Poitiers, Cordoba, Vienna) but today they have their biggest success thanks to a fifth column of people who lost any own ideology and replaced it by only $$$$$$$.
Ishmael
All that people who write like Dave above do is to try and treat a symptom or a superficial appearance without understanding, wanting to understand or wanting to solve the underlying situation which needs to be remedied. None of them talk about the Wahabist/Salafists and thier supporters who are the font of all these practices and who are responsible for killings of innocent civilians such we have seen recently in Gaza and and Yemen and also in Syria. This is all a diversion and it is working for the pseudo left.
Yes to an extent, but not all.
I’d say they are deeply hypocritical if they want to talk about women rights & civil liberties in this society. We barely have any human rights, less than animals.
The law just hasn’t caught up with what life is really like for any in all sorts of typical muslim dress, where people aran’t free of harassment.
And as I said before about just “ordinary” women who are subjugated though marriage & economics. The letter of the law has nothing to do with practical reality.
I don’t think they care about womens rights, I think it’s just some kind of perverted virture signal cast on “the other”. But it’s fine when they are starving, getting sick and malnorashed on our streets. Because Hey. their face isn’t covered.
They may have to sell themselves every day, Just to eat & have some shelter. But hey, at least your free not to sell yourself & be destitute & Probably die at a very early age. Hail our “free” society.
I think we effecivaly murder women on a regular bases. Men Women & children.
And I think this farming of the “them” all plays into how we can justify killing muslims abroad openly. Basically mass slater.
And I think this framing*
We barley have no rights, less than vegans.
The law just hasn’t caught up with what life is really like with Monsanto, where farmers in third-world countries aran’t free of harassment.
And as I said before about just “ordinary” cabbages who are subjugated through fertiliser & economics. The letter of the law has nothing to do with practical reality.
And I think this farming of the “us”, cabbages and Brussels sprouts all plays into how we can justify killing insects. openly. Basically Brexit slated.
–Ishmael 2.0
But I do understand, covering (hiding) the entire body and face is extreme modesty to ensure sex doesn’t disrupt the social order. It applies in all cultures and religions, but became more relaxed in liberal societies due to the discovery of easy to administer contraception which controlled the consequences of sex allowing less modesty. It was the Pill that paved the way for ‘sexual revolution’ just as the Wheel paved the way for ‘economic revolution’. And less modesty has improved the health of everyone as its needed to have the nerve to see the doctor and undergo health care. But social mores, like marriage and FGM and covering the face are often promoted by women to manage society, to manage sex, to ensure an orderly society and security for the children.
So let me see if I understand you correctly: so modesty was important when there was no contraception but now that there is, men can indulge thier sexual predatory fantasies without the consequences? Do you belong to the same school that says ‘grab them by their p***y? Or is it the Fallon school of grab them by the knee?
Nearly all the sins of the church revolve around controlling sex to safeguard the ideal of man wife and children and an orderly society. And all the social mores of all cultures were devised towards this end, but some were more extreme than others. Sex was viewed as a revolutionary demon that needed to be controlled to avoid affairs and illegitimate children.
The Pill has led to a social revolution, including feminism, but it takes time for religious teaching and cultural mores, often made in the interests of women, to catch up.
so when in British history did women cover their faces?
I will answer for you. Never.
Wahabis! Made in Great Britain courtesy of the Philby family.
https://newrepublic.com/article/62076/the-spy-who-flew-his-cage
http://www.tmoamerica.org/sheikhgillani/desk/504-isis-british-wahhabi/
Love the Empire!
Ishmael.
I could not agree more. What makes me laugh is racist suddenly caring about women’s rights as an argument for their racism.
Don’t you think there is a difference between forced to wear a veil and choosing to do it?
Don’t you think that choice is entirely to do with (heavy) conditioning? In other words the choice is hardly free.
Observer,
“Don’t you think that choice is entirely to do with (heavy) conditioning?”
Absolutely, unless you have witnessed such other crap, and are still mentally strong enough to make a choice, and have the courage to – all alone – escape the “(heavy) conditioning”
I first did it when I was 15 years old, after confession to a priest. He wanted to know all the details, so I told him, about a girl in my class – and he wanted to know more. But we hadn’t actually done anything…so I told him my fantasy – it took about 5 minutes – of what I wanted to do with her – as if I already had
He said, “Tell me More Son…”
I said Bless Me Father, went home, and told my Mum and Dad and my Four older Brothers & Sisters – and Their Girlfriends and Boyfriends…
“I am not going to Church Any More.”
They all told me – “You Anthony Are going to Hell”
I reckon its easier getting out of the Scientologists – or most of the other cults – Yes I know…its great when you help people escape.
I was 15. I had given up Religion, and I was a Free Man
The second escape, was when I got sent on a series of Management Courses, by two major British Companies…They were great courses…but I refused Point Blank to Go on The Last One..cos I saw the effect on my mate – my colleague. He had been brainwashed to a “Company Man”, and I know how The Tavistock Institute, who designed al these courses did it…
I ain’t knocking Behaviour Analysis, and Behaviour Modification, and Leadership Courses, but the Residential Ones always include a really nice sexy friendly girl, whilst the other 3 teams are trying to destroy you..so you go back to your room – etc…and now you are on file….Unless you do everything we say (unspoken) we will tell your wife.
That is how these people work, and I am merely giving you an example of a pimple on an iceberg.
This was years before the *redacted*
And I am not guilty.
Every night I went home to my wife
Tony
🙂 thanks for sharing. All pwer to you and yours.
that argument could be used for practically everything
I agree abouf conditioning (advertising etc). But that is not MANDATORY.
There’s probably a happy medium between our slappers and their nuns.
Is what I’d say.
That Shia middle class style can be quite cute, for example.
I believe there was even a fashion for elements of it a few years back.
Bit of mystery and the exotic East, against an all in yer face West.
Anyway, I though BoJo was some sort of Turk.
Ishmael I certainly know some young Muslim women who have been made, very reluctantly to marry an older man of their family’s choosing and who do not wear the veil voluntarily. It is very convenient for those who support it to claim it is always worn voluntarily as this closes down debate. I repeat my earlier question, if it is all about modesty, why do the majority of Muslim men not cover their heads and faces?
“if it is all about modesty, why do the majority of Muslim men not cover their heads and faces?”
It’s probably more about control of male desire.
Than of female desire.
There was this idea that only successful males should breed.
Bits of Bonobo activity here and there, aside.
But yeah, now every man can become a king.
It was probably better for the ladies, when back in the day, Grandmama decided whom Emma should marry.
Generally the best financial deal.
I mean, “as well him as another” as Molly Bloom dith sigh.
Arranged marriages are the norm, throughout history.
There’s something a bit blippy about this period.
Bit man-made synthetic, like beginning in Modernism in all its forms, and then ending in an equally garbage post-Modernism.
Kinda like a false detour on the path to human development.
I really really want to sue someone for having to live through this crap.
Good point, but there must be some people who are volutarily wearring the veil so what about their rights. If you make the veil illegal then you set up two competing groups each telling muslim women what to wear and what not to wear. How has this improved their freedom? Further, unless you make the law specifically about muslim garb and muslim women you must restrict the right of everyone to cover their faces in public for any reason.
fantastic interview with ryan dawson, one of the world’s foremost 9/11 researchers. Ryan has produced one amazing, free, gamechanger documentary “9/11 and war by deception” easily the best on youtube, plus he has a 5 hour long paid for one called “the empire unmasked”. strongly recommended https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm7HJCVChdA
That would be Ryan Dawson the openly anti-5emitic holocaust denier? If he’s the best they have to offer the 9/11 truth movement is really in trouble.
I’ve noticed the “truth” movement tends to go in for the hard sell but a 5 hour “documentary”?
Please link examples of this anti-Semitism and holocaust denial. I have been looking for some without success so far; maybe you could speed things up. To help, I have already sampled some sections of the following at Ryan Dawson’s website:
http://www.ancreport.com/documentary/the-chemistry-of-auschwitz/
but it is about chemistry of gas chambers; it seems to say nothing about the reality or otherwise of the Holocaust.
I haven’t gone too far into this but I reckon if a 9/11 conspiraloon starts making youtube documentaries about zyklon b and the chemistry of the gas chamber then it’s a pretty safe bet he’s not going to be following the orthodox line on the hol0caust. What do you reckon Clark?
I don’t think Dawson made the documentary; he appears merely to have linked it. Since I have found no Holocaust denial or denigration of Jws on his site, I think he may have simply found the investigation interesting. He certainly seems to have done his homework on the CIA and its exploitation of islamists.
And Dawson doesn’t appear to be “a 9/11 conspiraloon”. I haven’t found any promotion of false physics or unsubstantiated 9/11 theories in that video. Rather, it is all stuff from real reporters, and information from the redacted 28 pages of the 9/11 Commission Report, that sort of thing.
Anon1,
So far as I know, both you and Clark, (and you are both highly intelligent) still believe the Official story.
This may help you both understand the thoughts that you are experiencing. Don’t knock Psychology. It is extremely powerful.
“Psychologists Explain *redacted* Denial
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f462ya0DC0g
Tony
” I don’t think Dawson made the documentary; he appears merely to have linked it.
So why would he have done that?
” This may help you both understand the thoughts that you are experiencing. Don’t knock Psychology. ”
I wouldn’t knock psychology but I would knock this patronising pseudo version of it.
It’s not that we can’t reconcile two conflicting versions it’s simply that the conspiracy versions are so laughably stupid. It would be an advantage if the so-called truth movement could agree on one alternative version but we have planes, no planes, no buildings, explosives, mini-nukes, death rays etc. Every few years somebody comes along with a new theory, which of course is supported by incontrovertible evidence.
Tony, I have tried not to believe anything, since I escaped my religious upbringing. I try to accept or reject things, provisionally, based on evidence and reasoning.
I spent eighteen months on therapy in the ’90s and I have a lay interest in psychology. Physics and engineering I do for myself, thanks (because I know that’s what you’re hinting at).
@ Anon1 August 12, 2018 at 15:59
Hoist by your own petard.
You earlier refereed to Dawson as ‘That would be Ryan Dawson the openly anti-5emitic holocaust denier?’.
Now you admit you just ‘assumed’ it as, in your words, ‘a safe bet’.
Why not admit that in the original comment?
And if the chemistry does not fit the allegations, why crucify the chemist, or those who quote him/her?
I personally avoid the subject, out of respect for the feelings of so many descendants of Nazi death camps and other atrocities, but people should not be judicially pilloried for asking genuine questions, and where possible checking out the allegations against scientific evidence.
New DNA techniques can be used on old ‘evidence’ which could prove or disprove some contested cases from the past, some where the person/s found ‘guilty’ have been executed, are still in jail, or have died natural deaths.
Yet some Judges refuse to allow that evidence to be checked for and/or presented as evidence (this has happened mostly in the States, but a fairly recent case occurred in France, when the Judge categorically refused Henri Paul’s parents from obtaining a sample of the blood used to ‘prove’ Henri Paul was way over the alcohol limit, and also had huge amounts of carbon monoxide in ‘his’ blood. Why? A pound to a penny, because the blood sample used was not Henri Paul’s, but that of a suicide who had drunk a lot of alcohol, then gassed himself with car exhaust fumes (just such a case ‘just happened’ to be in the same morgue at the same time as Henri Paul’s body).
So IF the relevant authorities knew that chemical tests would disprove their allegations about X,Y, or Z, they would surely try to prevent any such tests being carried out, and if that approach failed, to somehow undermine the evidence found.
what is this “truth movement “? Different people have different theories AFAIK. Just as the official version has gone through severely revisions.
BTW how many died at Auschwitz?
Who cares how it was done.
It was a “catalytic event”.
What it produced, tells you who produced it.
Still can’t quite understand why the US, UK etc didn’t finish off Russia when they had it on its knees.
I mean, they allowed it to stabilise, grow and rearm. Even outdo Western military technology. Where’d they get that.
Now it’s a big threat again.
I think Zbig and Kissinger is where the debate is on this. Zbig’s approach seems to have lost out. If we could get some candour on why he thought he lost that debate, that might explain a lot. Must be something there is his diaries, correspondence etc.
Dugin talks about 911 ushering in the multi-polar world as against the Globalist world. Dunno what his argument is.
But yeah, it was definitely a shift in geopolitics, and we can see the outlines of that now.
Seems to be going some sort of bad Right way.
Where bad Left is the identity politics stuff.
That’s in the West.
Herbie
“Still can’t quite understand why the US, UK etc didn’t finish off Russia when they had it on its knees.”
I am not quite sure when this was and why you wish this on any country. Are you in favour of massacres and genocides?
But maybe there are also some possible answers:
1. They had no reason to.
2. They looked at history and thought it may not be a good idea to mess with Russia.
3. They did not have enough nukes.
4. They were a bit more humane than you.
just as starters.
SA, I think you’ve misunderstood Herbie’s comment. I doubt Herbie is suggesting that the US should have finished off Russia, but could have done immediately after the fall of the Soviet Union, and based on long term US animosity, it makes no sense that the US didn’t.
But Herbie is logically wrong because Russia continued to be a nuclear-armed power right through the fall of the Soviet Union.
@ SA August 12, 2018 at 20:03
Don’t worry, Churchill wanted the US to do just that, but Truman nixed him:
‘FBI memo: Churchill wanted Harry Truman to ‘nuke’ Russia’:
http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/fbi-memo-churchill-wanted-harry-truman-to-nuke-russia/article/413976
Churchill was a great war leader, but a very nasty character.
Clark
Their nukes didn’t matter. There was no control system. There was no system, and the US was all over this stuff anyway.
They were easily taken over and subjected to Western diktat.
But no. Allowed to rise Phoenix like to become a major power in the world again.
With super duper weapons no one else has got.
It ain’t your natural organic process, is what I’d say.
Clark and Herbie
But they had a damn good try. Russia was stolen lock stock and barrel and looked set never to recover when Yeltsin handed over to Putin. This turnaround was not supposed to happen and that is why they hate him so much.
“But they had a damn good try. Russia was stolen lock stock and barrel and looked set never to recover when Yeltsin handed over to Putin. This turnaround was not supposed to happen and that is why they hate him so much.”
But surely the question is why they allowed Putin to rise at all, and develop super duper weapons that are better than anything the West has, and is threatening the West with them, when he’s not running the US electoral system.
I know the early narrative was that Putin was the great antidote to Western malaise, fighting them here, fighting them there, fighting them everywhere.
An, almost messianic narrative.
Putin peaked a few years ago.
This is the wearing down phase.
There’s no succession.
I might put a fiver on the Globalists beating the Nationalists in a late surge.
And a double on China getting Siberia.
A treble on Ehud Barak returning to power in Israel.
And an accumulator on Trump and chums getting ousted.
But, I’m not betting on Russia no more.
Run out of ideas, is what I’d say.
Potemkin facade.
Herbie, August 12, 22:05; Russia continued to service the Mir space station successfully after the fall, so I suspect they could still have launched their nukes. The Russians maintained their space programme out of a sense of duty, unpaid; possibly a similar ethos maintained their strategic military capabilities. Maybe the Western powers were banking on personnel staying home in the absence of pay but it failed to happen.
The author of The Chemistry of Auschwitz, Germar Rudolf, is a convicted denier who tried to use some pseudo-scientific hogwash to make a case that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germar_Rudolf
Unless Dawson agrees with him I can’t see why else he’d host it on his website.
Is guilt by association the best you could come up with?
Oh look. Philip Cross all over your Wiki link, Kempe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Germar_Rudolf&action=history
So what? Why don’t you look up Germar Rudolf yourself or read some of his writings and make up your own mind or is the fact that Philip Cross edited his Wiki entry enough to convince you that he’s really a nice bloke?
I don’t look it up because I don’t care, because Germar Rudolf is a digression, a red herring introduced by yourself. You have produced no evidence of anti-Semitism or Holocaust denial to substantiate your accusations against Ryan Dawson.
@ Kempe August 12, 2018 at 16:19
Would it be too much to ask you to link evidence that Rudolf ‘..tried to use some pseudo-scientific hogwash’, rather than just an allegation that that is so?
@ Clark August 12, 2018 at 16:33
Nice one!
Linking to Wikipedia ????
Don’t bitch about Wikipedia Hmmm; get in there, learn the rules and edit it. Decent editors, of which there are thousands, need more support. If it gets good enough Wales might even shut it down, and that would make a stir.
Create your own massive internet public servers.
Everyone gives a small % of their memory.
Download the internet, and defeat the Googlies.
The New Internet.
A People’s Internet.
Freedom.
Easy peasy.
Herbie
Where can we sign up? And do we get our people’s PayPal also?
Not a single comment on the content of the interview. Too real, too many facts for you to cope with?
Moocho, I thought it was very good; clear, with a lot of quality research behind it. I shouldn’t mention specifics due to moderation policy; the topic is banned on this blog, for precisely the reasons that Dawson laments.
Moocho, unfortunately, I suspect that my endorsement will only discourage the hard-core conspiracists, again, for exactly the reasons Dawson laments.
Dawson claims a lot of Freedom of Information Act evidence linking Israeli agents to the Saudi hijackers, but of course a video interview is a poor medium for substantiating this.
If Germar Rudolf is a digression why does it matter so much who has edited his Wiki entry?
The evidence is there if you want to bother to read it.
Kempe, it doesn’t matter much to me. I just wondered if Cross had edited that page, so I looked and he had, which amused me so I posted it. What is very clear is that Germar Rudolf matters a great deal to you.
Now, if you can find some anti-Semitism and/or Holocaust denial from Ryan Dawson, please post it. You wrote, let me remind you:
– “Ryan Dawson the openly anti-5emitic holocaust denier”
“Openly anti-Semitic” you wrote, so it really shouldn’t be too hard to find some actual evidence, should it? If you fail to, I shall start suspecting that you just look such things up on some database somewhere and have never bothered to verify it.
Kempe, what interests me far more is whether Dawson has actually seen the documents obtained by Freedom of Information Act request that he claims. That is far more important than quibbling about some unknown chemist with a video hosted on Vimeo. It’s important because Dawson seems to have done his homework regarding the Saudi connections, so I think he may well be right about Israel too.
Actually, it doesn’t even matter whether Dawson is anti-Semitic, or fellates his pet poodle.
What matters is those documents.
If anyone is wondering what this convoluted argument is about, it’s about this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm7HJCVChdA
@Clark watch this it has some of the details – it is an excerpt from “the empire unmasked”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8y2MtFZRds&t=5s this also has lots of clips from that film, tons of essential info https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJkl0GJu0Yc&t=5241s
Moocho, thanks again. I’ve downloaded your first link. It has many images of the documents, and seems considerably more coherent and focussed than the second link, though there’s interesting stuff there, too. Also lots of at-the-time news reports captured on video in the first link.
Do you know if this material is available anywhere in text / image /webpage format rather than video? I’d find that much easier to evaluate, though I’ll get there eventually with a vid.
The one to watch first is “9/11 and War by deception”, his original groundbreaking doc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK6VLFdWJ4I&t=802s That is the most imortant one
Thanks; downloading.
No non-video material? A book I could order from the library for instance?
Not that I’m aware of. Chris Bollyn is more of a book man, he gives a good deal of background context to the War on Terror, how it is linked to 9/11. this is a very good presentation of his https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuOsiMVlMBw&t=80s Good luck with the library, it is interesting to note that out of many libraries i have visited, not one has anything that remotely touches on the non government version of events, if any 9/11 material at all. funny that!
Moocho, I wouldn’t read too much into it. You can’t expect a library to stock Bolyn; he’s obviously anti-Semitic, though he has done some half-respectable research, and most of the other 9/11 stuff is just riddled with shite, as Dawson repeatedly points out.
And Bollyn has bought into the shite, too.
For the amusement of any J R-M fans on here from Mogg News on YT.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCCEOi4cp6k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2b2BCKcW0k
PS I am not btw.
Sharp Ears,
Well Jacob William Rees-Mogg is far more intelligent and amusing than Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, and both of them have far more functioning brain cells than Theresa Mary May.
I am not even put off by his accent, as he sounds almost exactly the same as my nephew who is a Professor, and went to the same university at the same time. They were also both brought up as Catholics, so almost certainly know each other.
My nephew, like me, does not do politics, so far as I am aware, but he is very clever, even if he still believes a load of religious nonsense.
Personally, I think Jeremy Bernard Corbyn will get the job. Somewhat older, but much higher class.
Tony
“but he is very clever, even if he still believes a load of religious nonsense.”
You’ve never studied Theology.
All you know is the simplistic stuff you were taught as a child. You didn’t develop it further.
Most of us are like that.
Perhaps this clever chap, did.
And understands the deeper significance.
This ain’t a good time to be ditching our ancient wisdom.
Whether Communism, or Consumerism, we die, you see.
Ask him.
Herbie,
What makes you think I have never studied Theology?
When I was 10 years old, I got sent to Upholland Priest’s Training College near Wigan. There were no girls there, and I demanded to be taken home, the same day I arrived.
My Dad however had the Full Treatment at Ushaw Priest’s Training College
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ushaw_College
He wasn’t Gay either and also escaped, or I wouldn’t be here.
Randy man, He was a sailor before he met my mum, and wasn’t allowed to use a condom. I don’t like them either. So I probably have half brothers and sisters across much of the Northern Hemisphere.
Tony
You’re more a science, technology kinda bod. Bit too empirical.
That’s fine.
And music, life, love and family are your escape from the rat race..
But.
You see.
When you diss God, so casually, it’s kinda like you don’t know what it’s all about.
It’s more to do with the value of human life, against those who view human life as purely instrumental.
The religious folks are just trying to keep a bit of that old idealism alive during a period of suffocating death-cultism..
It’s the Orcs are in charge now mate.
Religious meetings are secretly taking place up and down and throughout the hedgerows of England.
They’re not.
No one cares, you see.
Everyone’s in the sweetie jar.
I mean, you must know the difference between producing and consuming.
None of which ramblings show you studied theology.
I am utterly sick, weary and tired of hearing about Boris Bloody Johnson, Boris Bloody Johnson, Boris Bloody Johnson, Boris Bloody Johnson, Boris Bloody Johnson, letterboxes and bank robbers, letterboxes and bank robbers, letterboxes and bank robbers, wall to wall, morning noon and night all over the BBC this week, especially on BBC Radio 4.
Making comparisons between Boris Bloody Johnson and Disraeli today on the World this Weekend just now. It really calls into question what the hell the BBC is up to.
Wouldn’t it be far more appropriate to be going after that twat David Cameron and the mayhem his idiotic referendum has caused in the UK’s body politic instead of giving the oxygen of publicity to his ridiculous Bullingdon Club buddy????
Mochyn69,
I agree. The solution is to not watch the TV, and to not read the nonsense in The Guardian – or any of the other rags. My wife just took a walk, and what does she come back with?..The Bloody Guardian – or Observer or whatever the fck it is called on a Sunday. She claimed a load of ’em had just been dumped in the street, and no one would take them away. She is very good at cleaning up other people’s litter. She does it for free, cos she likes a tidy village.
Tony
I note that steve bell’s ‘if’ cartoon is no longer being published on the web site. Yet is on the hard copy G2.
He appears like me and many other btl commentators, to be despatched as one of the great unwashed from the ghettoes into electronic purdah.
Of course as the neoconlib project crashes off the rails, like
Dungroanin,
If you have been deleted and banned as much as me, I will buy you a pint.
Tony
You don’t think all those pints were something to do with the banning, Tony?
Just sayin’ … 😉
I asked them for a count. They have referred it to the IT department. I have offered to write a database querey if they are busy. But i guess it must be into 3 figures out of the several thousands i posted.
I am escalating it and am on the road to an official query.
Watch this space 😉
He has been banished for his supposedly AS one about Nuty and May.
Yet another biased report on the World this Weekend today. First there was a fawning interview with a ‘sympathetic’ historian comparing Johnson to Disraeli and then Jonny Diamond went to the local Conservative Association again. And that was it – no attempt to canvas views from anyone else. How much longer can they get away with this?
As long as you and everyone else keeps paying the licence fee. Ditch your TV and cancel that direct debit.
Yup
Incorrigible rogues. Made me choke on my Sunday roast.
The Biased Boris Broadcasting Cunts need to be brought down now.
****
Mochyn69
Hubris Johnson needs to be got rid of at this opportunity. As foreign secretary he stood in parliament and defended the proxy jihadist wreckers of Syria and Iraq. He’s no deeper than the scum under his fingernails, pretending not to be associated with the jihadists he has been working with for the last few years by insulting their women. He has the kind of devious mind that can resort to bare-faced lying when faced with defeat. Russia has defeated the neo-cons in Syria so he concocted Skripalgate.
Are we going to allow the BBC and his Tory chums let him off the hook for this gratuitous insult? No!
if you can’t take the heat, please switch on the air conditioning. We will have him like a fox’s head on a varnished plaque in the living room, complete with grin. It’s a political world. If you don’t like the chase why not take up bowls or something? Should be a please in there somewhere but I am concentrating on the destruction of this particular swamp thing.
If some prominent person is going around saying burqa look like letterboxes then it is a matter of extreme concern to the left-wing metropolitan media because of their endless obsession with racism and pandering to every minority. I’m afraid this is the society you wanted and have built for yourselves.
Anon1
The society I want is when the British government wants its Muslim neighbours near and far Not to have their countries trashed by jealous western nations with an inferior religion/s. Narrow nationalists like Hubris Johnson, the head of the CBI, Mrs May are not prominent in my humble opinion. They are malicious , illiberal, uneducated, stupid, and wrong. Let’s get rid of them once and for all and have somebody more sensible put in.
Where is Craig Murray? Is he hospitalised in Salisbury? Will he reappear looking fresh and years younger to give a press conference to a single Reuters reporter somewhere in North London? The Russian Ambassador should demand immediate consular access… oops got carried away.
He’s fine, but unreachable. Taking a break after working himself into the ground at the festival.
Was wondering. Glad he’s okay.
It is summer holiday time. Family thing i guess. Time to recharge battery. Do some investigation of facts. Then launch a devesting series of articles.
Can’t wait!
Clark,
Some terminology, as I understand it:
‘Conspiriology’ is the study of conspiracies and a ‘conspiriologist’ is a person engaged in that study.
‘Conspiracism’ is an attempt to understand the world as a conspiracy or a set of conspiracies, and a ‘conspiracist’ is someone who sees the world primarily or exclusively in terms of a conspiracy/conspiracies.
Much of what ‘I see’ (and what has been critiqued widely) is establishment figures or establishment spokespeople accusing conspiriologists of being conspiracists.
The Iraq lies, the mass surveillance controversy and many others were not initially raised by whistleblowers, but by investigators (aka ‘conspiriologists’) who claimed to have reasonable suspicion, questions – even if not definitive proof of illegal happenings. The ‘proof’ came later, only because of public pressure brought to bear as a consequence of those questions being raised.
This is the point : that although it could be argued that it is irrational to assume that everything is happening as the result of ‘a conspiracy’ (i.e. conspiracism), there is nothing irrational about suspecting conspiracy (based on careful ‘conspiriology’). It is a legitimate belief forming strategy. It is in fact a very democratic belief forming strategy, because people with power are constantly trying to hide illegal and immoral behaviour from pubic scrutiny.
Zinn wrote that we do not have a disobedience problem, but rather an obedience problem. We have too many people still obediently accepting the lies of propagandists, still put off asking probing questions by the scare term ‘conspiracy theorist’.
Critical thinking is key I agree. But we have to approach each inquiry with an acknowledgement that we all have a pre-configured bias, formed by our accumulated knowledge of previous examples, our political worldview, our personal background etc. etc.
NB You yourself wrongly quoted Chomsky, because it suited your argument.
Chomsky is not faultless, and has shown complete breakdown in his own impartial critical thinking on some issues.
Two contemporary examples:
#1 The intrigue within the Labour Party.
Some suspect that Jon Lansman is not all that he seems (lobbying for full adoption of IHRA code with all examples, promoting a ‘witch hunt against Leftist anti-zionists in the party’ etc.). Others say such accusations are the rantings of ‘cranks’ (i.e. conspiracists).
If we look at the history of infiltration of the NUM in the miner’s strike of the 1980s, COINTELPRO in the US in the 60s and 70s, the ‘spycops’ scandal, or the Whitlam government in Australia and so on (all subjects firmly within the realm of ‘conspiriology’), we might be motivated to look very closely at Jon Lansman and his connections to Isreali lobby groups, his approach to ‘democracy’ in Momentum, his forthcoming appearance at the JLM etc.
If however, we accept that any insinuation of suspicion against Lansman (supposedly a ‘true Corbyn supporter’) is nothing but conspiracist crankery, we might, once again be duped by the apparent.
#2. The Syrian conflict is now widely understood as a proxy war initiated and/or escalated (certainly maintained) by the Western powers who have funded, trained and equipped Islamist extremists in the hope of regime change in Damascus.
However, for the past few years the vast bulk of both Left and Right opinion has been that the conflict was basically a civil war and that those who contested otherwise were Assad apologists/ Russia-aligned conspiracy theorists. Those who correctly made the call way back and are now vindicated were attacked by the inheritors of both the Straussian and the Popperian epistemologies.
If you were to merely say that ‘there are great problems with the general public’s capacity for critical thought’, or that ‘public understanding of science is very low’, or that ‘baseless theories about the world are circulated and boosted by a broken media or a corrupt intelligence apparatus’, then I would have no grounds for disagreement.
But you don’t. You make the concept of ‘conspiracy’ the defining categorisation, and attack ‘conspiriology’ – which is, in truth, nothing but the study of the parts of history which we all need more knowledge of.
I am with people like Peter Dale Scott and Michael Parenti in claiming that such categorisation has undermined the anti-establishment movements and disabled clear political thought.
Conspiriology is democracy.
Thanks for that clarification. I used to think I was an incorrigible conspiracy theorist but now I realise I am an incorrigible conspiricist.
As you seem to believe every single conspiracy theory going, including every single terrorist attack in the West having been a ‘false flag’ carried out by Western governments, I think you are an incorrigible retard who can’t accept reality.
Thanks for sharing. Hope you’re keeping well.
I thought that this is a site for polite civilised conversation, where are the mods?
Oh spare me the sanctimonious drivel, SA. I get a heap of abuse on here and you never complain about that. Neither do I.
@ SA August 12, 2018 at 16:30
Shush, don’t wake them up. They are sometimes far too ‘active’!
@ Anon1 August 12, 2018 at 16:37
Perhaps, but you deserve it.
Mog, OK, I’ve been confused about the terminology. What I’ve been calling ‘conspirology’ is what you have called ‘conspiracism’ – assuming conspiracy by default, and expanding its bounds to cover each challenge; see my three comments starting from here:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/07/the-ubiquity-of-evil/comment-page-18/#comment-768492
I shall use ‘conspiracism’ from now on. However, I would point out that many others use the terminology differently than you do, too, so it would help if conspirologists didn’t protest so much at the use of the terms ‘conspiracy theory’ etc. Actually, I expect the ones who protest the most are those who tend most towards conspiracism, since their arguments tend to be the weakest and most self-referential.
I would somewhat disagree with Zinn, as follows. The largest group are simply indifferent. These merge and overlap with the second largest group who indeed have an obedience problem, and simply accept one of the mainstream narratives. The third largest group are the conspiracists, who also have an obedience problem; they’re merely obedient to the peculiar, unstated rules of conspiracism, which are not to question other conspiracists with incompatible theories, and to accuse anyone who does of serving the assumed conspiracy, deploying various degrees of abuse in the process to chase critical thinkers away from what they regard as their patch. This leaves quite a small minority who are actually prepared to apply critical thinking to all the possibilities, and regularly remind themselves that knowledge and understanding are never complete.
– – – – –
I have allegiance neither towards the established order nor against it. It does much good and much harm, but over the long term it tends to improve, though by fits and starts with slower deterioration between, a climbing sawtooth. My dedication is to that overall improvement, and all deliberate improvement requires reasonably accurate information. It seems to me counter-productive that theories of chemtrails and vaccine-depopulation are concocted – these are not based on prior experience such as suspicions about the Iraq atrocity were – and then aggressively promoted with the unpleasant techniques of the conspiracists which I outlined above, because it tends to drive the thoughtful from the field of debate.
I don’t think I did misquote Chomsky. I think the videoed interview I referred to post-dated the text from 2005. But I cannot be sure.
Somebody made a good point years ago when he said it’s not those who doubt the official version of 9/11 who are the conspiracy theorists; it’s those who believe Osama bin Laden and nineteen Saudis conspired to pull it off who are the conspiracy theorists.
“The Iraq lies, the mass surveillance controversy and many others were not initially raised by whistleblowers, but by investigators (aka ‘conspiriologists’) who claimed to have reasonable suspicion..”
The Iraq lies were very obvious lies to a great majority of people so much so that millions of ordinary people around the world went out on demonstrations against these obvious lies. Are you telling me that these millions were ‘conspiriologists’? Similarly the Skripal incident, the Russian meddling with US story and so on were born dead in the water as stories, they needed no conspiriologists to point out the inconsistencies in the stories. A lesson from the Iraq war for conspiracy theories is that even when they are right, there is no comeback. blair and others were found to have lied to parliament and there has not been any consequence to him, instead he is free to make millions out of dictators.
There is of course a continuum between conspiracy theorists who see a conspiracy behind everything that is officially announced, and at the other end those that trust everything the government says. And moreover this state is not fixed in an individual and one at one time may be 100% conspiracy theorist but this may decline to 40% say, and so on. The problem is to have a happy medium otherwise life becomes tedious because you stop using mobiles, stop vaccinating your child, stop taking medications and so on because the whole government and the scientists and doctors and everyone is colluding on a conspiracy to send us all to an early grave. Never mind the fact that people are actually living longer and being cured of diseases previously thought to be incurable, despite the efforts of the wicked doctors and pharmaceutical industry.
Yes of course we should all approach problems critically, and that should be the main function of higher education, to think critically and to know how to interpret from original sources and to detect bias and false deductions. Unfortunately capitalism has subverted the idea of higher education and monetised it in order to make it appear as a means for a career. Basic research in Universities has been severely cut at the expense of applied research which is more likely to get quick results and translate into profits.
Of course Chomsky is not faultless but then it would be hero worshiping and uncritical to think that anybody is but a lot of what Chomsky says is right and chimes with the state of the world.
Good post, SA:
Anon1 is one of those character who thinks “nuance” is a woman’s name. He is devoid of subtle thought or empathy.
SA: – “A lesson from the Iraq war for conspiracy theories is that even when they are right, there is no comeback. Blair and others were found to have lied to parliament and there has not been any consequence to him, instead he is free to make millions out of dictators”
This is absolutely crucial. Conspiracism and conspirology prove equally worthless. What is needed is political activism, to cause structural change.
“What is needed is political activism, to cause structural change.”
We’re swamped with political activism these days.
Non-stop identity nonsense. Thru msm and the alt left.
Then you’ve got your Right political activists.
Same identity nonsense. Inverted.
Both entwined in eternal embrace.
Not much political activism about finance and economics.
Real structural change begins in the financial system.
That’s it.
Everything else is a distraction.
And simply a playing out of the pathologies inherent in the financial system.
Well I’ve got my voting form from the Labour party here, and I just renewed my membership for another year, and I’m going to vote for Corbyn’s supporters for the Labour NEC. It just cost me another twenty-five quid but it’s the best chance I can see in the circumstances I’m in, because the government make the rules that the financiers have to comply with – to some extent. Not perfect, but a damn sight better than having to fight some rich people’s private army.
SA
The Iraq lies were very obvious lies to a great majority of people so much so that millions of ordinary people around the world went out on demonstrations against these obvious lies. Are you telling me that these millions were ‘conspiriologists’?
No. But they had read or viewed the work of investigative journalists who made the case that the government story was too weak to warrant supporting the invasion. In my (not foolproof defintion) investigative reporters are ‘conspiriologists’ – they work from a knowledge of history which shows that governments and power elites regularly conspire against the truth and against populations. Such knowledge guides and drives their inquiries. Rightly so, I would say.
If people listened to honest researchers (‘conspiriologists’) a bit more and didn’t deride them as ‘conspiracy theorists’ (in the pejorative) or ‘conspiracists’ (as a paranoid sense), then perhaps things like the war in Syria might have been less destructive. At least the professed motivation of people like Pilger or Craig Murray here, is that knowledge of the lies and deception and the context of previous crimes can work to rein in the excesses of imperialists and power elites.
I keep discussing things with people who obviously share the same values as me, but who have political positions that are adopted from opinion-makers who regularly use the ‘c’ word. Louis Allday writes a critique of Owen Jones, Paul Mason and George Monbiot (serial offenders of the weaponised use of ‘conspiracy theory’ smears to shut down discussion).
https://mronline.org/2018/08/06/social-imperialism-in-the-21st-century/
Mason has repeatedly declared his support for NATO and its dangerous expansion eastwards, a stance that he justifies on the fictitious basis that “the fascist war machine of Russia wants to destroy our democracy—and like in 1939 I would rather have democracy than fascism.” Let us be clear: NATO is an imperialist military alliance and ex-Nazi officers played a central role in its formation. Furthermore, it has been revealed that following the Second World War, NATO created a Europe-wide network of underground armed cells of fascists and conservatives (including former SS officers in Germany) that carried out false-flag terrorist attacks that were then blamed on Communist groups in order to discredit the left. Therefore, Mason’s portrayal of NATO as some kind of bulwark against fascism is not only absurd, but offensive. He has also alleged that Russia is waging “sustained hybrid warfare against British democracy.” This jingoistic, scaremongering rhetoric is illustrative of Mason’s position towards Russia generally, which unfailingly follows the UK Government line and regularly borders on the hysterical.
Not many people know that about NATO’s history, it is not really disputed, but not discussed. I am sure that it would change many opinions of the organisation and its actions if they did. Perhaps more people would be asking hard questions about what happened in Manchester last May, as a wave of terrorism swept through a general election….?
To the likes of Mason, Jones and Monbiot, this is simply ‘conspiracism’, to even ask, of course.
Having inveigled themselves into Eurovision and European football, the Israelis are at the European Championships being held in Glasgow and Berlin currently.
Why is Israel in the European Championships?
9 Aug 2018
Unsurprisingly, the European Championships is open to European countries, which has left some people wondering how Israel can compete at the games, given that it is a Middle Eastern nation. Well, this is nothing new, with Israel competing at the European Championships since 1990, and also competing in other European competitions, such as UEFA football tournaments and the Eurovision Song Contest. But why is it that the country that is not geographically in Europe competes in European tournaments?
/..
https://metro.co.uk/2018/08/09/israel-european-championships-7819417/
In 1958 Israel qualified for the World Cup by not playing a game. Nobody in the Asian group would play them for obvious political reasons. FIFA made them play off against Wales- the Welsh won. Ever since they’ve been in European football.
@ Sharp Ears August 12, 2018 at 16:07
They also sent units of the IDF to ‘War Game’ with NATO in the Baltic area.
And you Rubes have the temerity to disassociate yourselves from Brexit/Trumpism?
Your fulminating politics lack any sense of order or cohesion in your feeble attempts to cobble a socialist imperative. You are like Centenarians looking for a boner pill strong enough to lift London Bridge but your little crane is too much a load.
Semi-literates can request a Primer for comprehension.
Yes please. What’s a Rube?
Fat fetishist?
It is a racist term – aimed specifically at people from the south or the old Confederacy. Presumably now expanded to encompass anyone who the “intelligentsia” deems to posses the stereotypical characteristics of south.
Aint tolerance and respect for others wonderful.
When William Faulkner, won the Nobel prize for literature in the 50’s those who listened to his acceptance speech couldn’t quite make out what he was saying in parts, due to his deep Southern drawl.
However when the NYT, published the script of the speech in their paper, it was deemed as one of Nobel’s greatest acceptance speeches.
Faulkner to this day, is considered one of the greatest literary minds of the deep south.
L: “Aint tolerance and respect for others wonderful.”
This complaint from a Trump worshiper?
I say again – this simply has to be parody, albeit exceptionally unfunny parody.
no it isn’t racist, it just refers to people from rural areas. white, black. i think it came from carnies, originally, and carnivals travelled throughout the country.
So, it’s like “yokel” in England, or “culchie” in Ireland.
Typical city disdain for rural folk?
Or, is it more specifically applied to particular areas, as Loony describes.
A comprehension primer from somebody who’s convinced the solution to phenomena like Brexit and Trump is to return to the politics that produced them?
Quite, Ben.
And what did you do to support Bernie Saunders?
Bernie? You must have confused me with Progressives, Clark. Attack of the 50 foot Wimmens bringing a plethora of opportunities but the vetting has only just begun. Rather than throw darts with eyes closed I’ll see what’s afield and decide my action then.
You didn’t support Bernie? Well I’m not surprised you’re bitter then; he was the candidate that could have beaten Trump.
Here, we’re in with a good chance of Corbyn as Prime Minister. I’ll take your advice try not to let my penis get in the way.
Sheesh.
‘No refunds’ Bernie wouldn’t have stood a chance against Trump. Not after this:
https://youtu.be/z6IlGoeDIUQ
“White people don’t know what it’s like to be poor”
What an absolute tit.
Anyone here still denying that Israel is an apartheid state?
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/08/tens-thousands-protest-tel-aviv-nation-state-law-180812062047725.html
I suspect a ‘False Flag’ or hoax attack will occur before long, somewhere in the world (probably the West) by someone or a group in burkas or hijabs. That could hoist BoJo to take over the Cons Party.
He could moonlight as a Lottery and Gee Gee Tipster, as well as being the latest ‘Mystic Meg’.
This was in the Graun a few years back.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/04/suspect-burqa-counter-terror-restrictions
I don’t get some people. They have money, they know they are not patriots or progressive in any manner. The main motivation seems to be literally, the head of some gang of thugs.
This is what I see is the aim of people like Borris, Who can I push about. I understood it at school to an extent, but in a grown up? Who can do most anything they want in life? It’s like some uncontrollable need to prove himself to a gang of thugs. While many others in the playground look on in horror.
And apparently this is all “Western ….civilisation” they are fighting for? What, until we all look the same? dress the same? …What a deeply needy and insecure man Borris is, and those like him…
“I don’t get some people. They have money, they know they are not patriots or progressive in any manner. The main motivation seems to be literally, the head of some gang of thugs.”
You’ve described Jens Stoletenberg, and his gang to a tee there.
@ Republicofscotland August 12, 2018 at 19:47
Aaron Russo put a similar question to Nick Rockefeller. Rockefeller replied that ‘we’ want everybody tagged with an RFID, to do away with money – everything would be on a card and centrally controllable and readable, and other things.
Other things he prophesied were in the works have come to pass; the money business is on top of us:
‘Big Brother is watching you: Jim Rogers prophesizes death of cash & total govt control of spending’:
https://www.rt.com/business/377307-jim-rogers-currency-control-cash/
See also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3NA17CCboA
Jens Stoltenberg*
I had to look him up. Yea, …I’m guessing a lot of people.
“I’m guessing a lot of people.”
Yes, Ishmael, including Boris. And you’re right.
@Paul Barbara August 12, 2018 at 18:53
Beware letter boxes, bank robbers and patio umbrellas!
***
Not an Israeli avocado in sight in Tesco’s today!. Those on offer were from Kenya. I didn’t buy them as I disapprove of the long distance air freight side of supply involved, just like flowers grown in E. Africa.
I noticed nearly all the apples in my local Sainsburys were from South Africa. I assume the supermarkets are laying down alternative supply lines outside the EU.
Long distance air freight? Well if you recall the case of the horsemeat Lasagne scandal, the horse meat was flown from America to Europe where it was stored in warehouses Holland,then trucked to Romania for processing, in their nice new EU funded factory, and then trucked to southern France for turning into Lasagne in their nice new EU subsidised factory and then stored in I think warehouses in northern France, before being trucked to the UK to be sold in supermarkets as cheap as chips lasagne, all the while officially produced in the EU. Someone can probably correct me on the exact route, but it covered a lot of miles and created a lot of pollution and all within the EU. Air freight from Kenya might be better for the environment.
How does one distinguish an Israeli avocado from a Palestinian one?
One doesn’t because of the illegal, misleading labelling that the settlements indulge in.
You can’t. BDS screws Palestinians but then it was always about getting at J.ws, not helping Palestinians.
Israeli avocados are grown on land that was stolen from the Palestinians.
Look for the code:
Do the barcodes on Israeli products start with 729?
A barcode starting with 729 usually indicates a product of Israel. But this is not always reliable. The best way to tell if a product is made in Israel is to look for a “Product of Israel” label or to ask the retailer if they can guarantee a product isn’t from Israel.
Does the BDS movement call for a boycott of all Israeli products or just products and companies from illegal Israeli settlements?
The BDS movement calls for a boycott of all Israeli products. However, some of our biggest campaigns are against companies that operate in illegal Israeli settlements in the Occupied West Bank. This is simply because targeting these companies are, at this stage, more capable of winning widespread support and succeeding. As our movement grows, so do our ambitions and the BDS movement is currently in the process of moving away from campaigns focused mainly on illegal Israeli settlements.
https://bdsmovement.net/get-involved/what-to-boycott
But please support Zaytoun especially for Palestinian olive oil and dates. http://www.zaytoun.org/products.html
http://www.zaytoun.org/
A whole load of Palestinian produce and Israeli produce from from Palestinian farmers comes under “Made in Israel”.
I buy Zaytoun. They have some excellent products, but their dates are a bit dry. I usually get the Israeli medjool dates, which in my opinion are the finest.
Anon1
Since we’e talking about Israeli produce, do you have any recommendations for good Israeli wines?
I’ve heard that there are some good labels produced in the Golan Heights but wish to have your opinion before seeking them out.
Many thanks.
Sure you do, ‘Charles’.
“I didn’t buy them as I disapprove of the long distance air freight side of supply involved, just like flowers grown in E. Africa.”
So, no carbon footprint on zaytoun products?
I can’t help with Israeli wines Charles; maybe Australian would substitute?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cozw088w44Q
Charlie
That is not Israel, it is occupied Syrian land.
However a bit further north from the Beja’a valley you can get Chateau Musar, excellent wine that ages well. And it will help the Lebanese economy.
Musar is highly overrated and most people buy it just for the novelty of Lebanese wine.
Bazelet HaGolan, Charles. Try some of their reserve Cabernets.
@ Clark, SA and Anon!
My question was a serious one. Therefore:
– no thanks to Clark, I wasn’t asking about Australian wines (btw, surely you haven’t forgotten how the Aborigines were treated by the Australian settlers?
– I quite liked Chateau Musar but have no particular wish to help Hizbollah, which apparently controls a large part of Lebanon
– my thanks to Anon1, I’ll try some if I can find it. At the equivalence of one bottle bought by me = two kilos of Israeli fruit and veg sqeezed and bruised by Node in a supermarket.
CB
Lebanon is of course the only truly multiconfessional democracy in the Middle East, a fact that is often forgotten by people who think that an apartheid state can be ‘democratic’. As for Hizbullah, it , like Hamas has been elected through the ballot box, have successfully fought invaders and taught them a lesson. Moreover Lebanon is much more than Hezbollah and the owners of Chateau Musar are christians.
The Daily Mail finally reveals its true identity. ?
https://mobile.twitter.com/MyArrse/status/1027889141672038402/photo/1
lol, …took me a while.
Republicofscotland ,
It was one of the daily racists, who tried to do Craig Murray in. Even I sent him a tenner in his defence, even though I don’t always agree with him. I hope he is O.K. We are all missing him.
Tony
Murdoch wants rid of Theresa.
BREXIT DREAM TEAM? Boris Johnson urged to team up with David Davis and oust Theresa May THIS YEAR
Allies of the ex-Brexit Secretary have urged the party to put him in the top job to take care of Brexit, to avoid a damaging leadership campaign
1https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6997918/boris-johnson-urged-to-team-up-with-david-davis-and-oust-theresa-may-this-year/2th August 2018, 2:27 pm Updated: 12th August 2018, 6:07 pm
The Sky News paper review will find something about it on which to comment.
Boris Johnson burqa row sparks cabinet war as Steve Bannon wades in
Four ministers defy No 10 as Trump’s guru fuels tensions
12th August 2018
“Boris Johnson urged to team up with David Davis and oust Theresa May THIS YEAR”
Sounds like a good idea.
Stabbing a woman in the back, typical.
See note,- What do you want anon1? Do you even know?
Is that bigotry working for you?
O sorry, am I the one abusing you calling a spade a spade.
What on earth are you on about Ishmael?
You.
What I see in the whole right wing movement is deep insecurity.
Isolated men. In the elite @ the top whose contact with the rest of the world is cushioned, separated by vast wealth that also feeds their superiority complex. And those who are isolated in society, who’ve never traveled much beyond a holiday where they never really get involved in local culture.
It takes a while (took me a while) to really get to know other cultures, & you have to go their and live among the people. I found even then (in india especially) I only scratched the surface. but after several months you stop looking at the differences of behaviour & external things, and I came away thinking well everyone is just the same really. i.e.,, The spectrum covers the same basic ground. Subject to conditions.
Guess that’s why I see this framing of “multicultural issue” by the right as a bit of a red herring. No, people in india arn’t like those from there who now live here. They are just as miserable as other British people. Muslims who live hear live in & are part of our culture.
It just happens, You change in different surroundings (much as I try & live like a monk to resist the worst aspects) One literally cannot operate otherwise in society. …And imo it’s a real blessing to have just a bit of nuance. Even superficial things like skin tone, dress, etc.
But let’s not fool ourselves they are part of some other culture. Most everyone has different beliefs.
I mean look at America, proof.
I tell you what, think people have to be pretty desperate to want to come here.
Obviously growing up here there are things dear to me in the UK. The old buildings, the fog, the layers of history. But an old friend of the family visited us recently, he now just lives in the Philippines really. Looked healthy & happy ..at a good age. He said I’m not staying, it’s too cold (this was during the recent heat wave) …
Yet there are people with bags of money who decide to live and work here?
Maybe it’s something to do with development of my constitution, in Iran as a baby (though born here), I just hate the cold.
“I came away thinking well everyone is just the same really. i.e.”
Very true Ishmael at the basic level everyone craves the same things, such as food, water, shelter, love etc. Those things unite us in our humanity, they cross the barriers of land cultures, and religions. From there on in we become more tribal due to our upbringing in part. Pity.
“a bit of a red herring”
It may please you to know Ishmael that conservationists acting as saboteurs existed in the 1800’s. Herring when salted and smoked becomes a deep red colour those that didn’t want to see foxes ripped apart by hounds of the huntsmen, would drag the pungent fish on a rope ahead of the hounds and away from the fox’s direction. Thus ensuring the fox would escape.
The huntsmen would refer to this as a Red Herring.
Yes, Thanks.
“From there on in we become more tribal due to our upbringing in part”
Funny, I just finished a podcast on cosmopolitanism (Soros style, …doesn’t work)
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-dig-making-sense-of-soros/id791564318?i=1000417648858&mt=2
Gold for Great Britain! Well done Laura Muir !!
O come on, Pull the other one.
Yes. Dina Asher-Smith too (she won three golds) and the UK’s men’s and women’s 4 x 100m relay teams.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/45164636 the women
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/45164788 the men
So, Steve Bannon has spoken – but his words can only be heard by winners. The winners are being invited to gather in the arena to both witness and partake in some serious winning.
Cowards and losers, so dutifully pad homage to by the Guardian, cannot understand what is happening and so twist and contort themselves around every vacuous lie that they kind find in their big book of big lies.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/12/steve-bannon-praises-boris-johnson-and-tommy-robinson
Apparently your ” winning ” hero is an Armageddonist.
Well – all I can say is that if him Trump – Boris Johnson et al keep pushing the patience of Russia and China
then Armageddon will be yours.
The trouble is ( a bit like the wrong kind of Jew ) that would be the wrong kind of Armageddon.
” The Rapture ” seems a bit like the forty virgins routine to me. Surely some contradiction there?
p.s. Armageddon is a town in Syria.
Enjoy your ‘ Rapture. ‘
SadJav wants Corbyn ousted. SadJav is too clever by half.
Corbyn is the salvation of the Tories.
Bonkers to Nr.10. General Election Now!
With the wet tories as they are and always giving ground to the left, I think it’s time we had a Labour government. There are whole generations alive now who have never lived under socialism. The appeal of free stuff and not having to work for a living is simply too great a draw. We need a socialist government so that new generations can experience the disaster of socialism so that it is consigned to the dustbin for another 40 years.
So lame.
Yea, free stuff is just for the banks.
I think they would really hate not being exploited by the few who don’t work as a result. ….O dam, I keep forgetting the capitalist class have the same interests as working people, duh. Well I’m sure they will also be put to useful work in your utopia.
I think we should back nationalist fascists to hide the issues resulting from the elite deregulation of the economy. Keep them desperate so they will work for virtually nothing (those lucky enough to sell themselves). While acting really patriotic…And blame the left for what more right wing policies create.
Two excellent interviews by @DougHenwood with @adam_tooze & Leo Panitch on #Globalisation, Trump & American #Empire on @jacobinmag Radio –
https://twitter.com/ESBoroujerdi/status/1028292782115442688
Direct. https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/behind-news-globalization-trump-american-empire/id791564318?i=1000417599250&mt=2
Varoufakis said if Trump succeeds he will destabilise America with his trade war.
‘Monsanto ordered to pay $289m as jury rules weedkiller caused man’s cancer’:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/10/monsanto-trial-cancer-dewayne-johnson-ruling
‘…Dewayne Johnson, a 46-year-old former groundskeeper, won a huge victory in the landmark case on Friday, with the jury determining that Monsanto’s Roundup weedkiller caused his cancer and that the corporation failed to warn him of the health hazards from exposure. The jury further found that Monsanto “acted with malice or oppression”.
Johnson’s lawyers argued over the course of a month-long trial in San Francisco that Monsanto had “fought science” for years and targeted academics who spoke up about possible health risks of the herbicide product. Johnson was the first person to take the agrochemical corporation to trial over allegations that the chemical sold under the brand Roundup causes cancer.
In the extraordinary verdict, which Monsanto said it intends to appeal, the jury ruled that the company was responsible for “negligent failure” and knew or should have known that its product was “dangerous”.
“We were finally able to show the jury the secret, internal Monsanto documents proving that Monsanto has known for decades that … Roundup could cause cancer,” Johnson’s lawyer Brent Wisner said in a statement. The verdict, he added, sent a “message to Monsanto that its years of deception regarding Roundup is over and that they should put consumer safety first over profits”……’
Now they need to be hit re GMO dangers and ‘accidental’ spread.
Hundreds of thousands of Indian small farmers have committed suicide because GMO’s did not perform as advertised, and they ended up losing their land and incurring huge (to them) debts.
Unfortunately, Modi couldn’t give a toss, just as with Bhopal.
Look out, Big Pharma with your poisonous vaccines, and big Telecom with your mobile microwave communications!
Your time will (hopefully) come.
Looks like the EU and the UK’s love affair with Glysophate will continue for the foreseeable future unfortunately.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42135437
@ Republicofscotland August 12, 2018 at 22:11
That article was from November last year. Perhaps this new development will cause a rethink.
Yes Paul it was from 2017, however the licence was renewed in 2017, and I think it runs for fives years.
Paul
I think that the very concept of a weed killer is an abomination and a sign of how people have lost touch with nature and instead of clearing weeds by hoeing, want to spread chemicals. Vaccines on the other hand have saved millions of lives. Have you ever seen a case of smallpox? I have. You wouldn’t wish it on your enemy. Also god forbid that people would listen to these scare stories about vaccines and children start dying of preventable diseases such as measles.
– “Also god forbid that people would listen to these scare stories about vaccines and children start dying of preventable diseases such as measles”
Already happened. Tony and Cherie Blair were primarily responsible, amplified through the good old MSM. All meticulously documented in Bad Science.
Yes I had forgotten that. Here are two references from the time, one by Ben Goldacre who wrote ‘Bad Science’ and the other from Nature.
https://www.nature.com/articles/ni1208-1317
https://www.badscience.net/2008/08/the-medias-mmr-hoax/
Do any animal lovers have any suggestions? Our house has got history, and for most of the last 25 years, we have had a pond at the back of the garden, but because we have got young grand kids, my wife said to fill the pond in. No one asked permission from the frogs – and a little baby frog has just hopped in our house and is currently on my sandal looking at me. I can’t possibly harm him, or let the cats know.
What do I do?
Tony
@ Tony_0pmoc August 12, 2018 at 22:18
Surely you are capable of fixing a sturdy mesh containment around and over the pond?
Assuming you haven’t yet filled the pond in, that is. And if the pond is still there, simply return the frog to the pond, and tell it to beware of the cats. Presumably you have had cats for some time, so they and the frogs would seem to have co-existed in the past.
Paul Barbara,
Yes, we had already done that 25 years ago, and it passed official Inspection…My wife used to be a registered childminder, yet one of the kids still jumped into the pond, which was also very funny….but now the pond has gone.
There is now no pond, but we still quite obviously have frogs..I may video it, if I get the chance, but our back room is a bit of a mess…we have got all this camping gear in it, and I think it has just hopped under the Telly…with all my electrical gear..it will probably end up in the computer…oh dear…its a bit wet.
Tony
lol
Take them to a local outdoor pond. Fill it in up to about an inch, & maybe resize if big (circle looks nice) you’ll get lots of birds.
Dear Tony, you are right to pause. Frogs are with us for a very long time, some 260million years. They were perfect all that time ago and need some help.
My suggestion would be to ask her indoors nicely, to give you a hand with putting a fence up, 3 feet suffices, alternatively grow shrubs and or high grasses around it and get yourself a lifesize wooden crocodile carved, a two pronged H&S measure.
Good luck, might be good idea to introduce this with a bottle of nice Merlot or Gewurztraminer…..:)
Barbara
It’s about time for you to be put to the test. In other words, for you to do a bit of positive posting.
So let’s start with your comment, a little earlier on, that
“These Medieval ‘Kingdoms’ and ‘Sheikdoms’ wouldn’t last six months, if six days, without the West’s ‘protection’”
Let’s assume that you’re right.
So tell us, in your own words, who or what would bring about the downfall of those countries, who would be in charge after that downfall and in which way such a downfall would be beneficial for those countries.
Feel free to answer comprehensively.
@ Charles Bostock August 12, 2018 at 22:31
The people of the countries should decide, without external interference (as the Houthis successfully did, till ganged up on by the Saudis and their dozen-odd War Criminal ‘Coalition’, plus Western military, logistic and even on the ground ‘Special Forces’.
And as the Bahrainis were on course to do, before the Saudis sent in tanks and troops.
And by the way, I am not talking about the ‘downfall of these countries’, but the downfall of the Medieval ‘Kings’ and ‘Sheikhs’.
The benefits would likely be far more democratic and less repressive governments – they could hardly be worse than what is in place at present.
But people-oriented governments would likely stop the outrageous theft of oil from their nations, and would demand a fair arrangement with their Western customers – anathema to the West, who like to deal with a mega-rich tiny minority, rather than a democratically elected and people-oriented government.
Of course, maybe they might screw up. It’s their country, and should be their choice.
That response is just woolly piffle (and factually wrong – are republics like Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Iran really less repressive? does the “fair arrangement” for trade in oil achieved by Venezuela benefit the people, it certainly doesn’t ensure a regular supply of toilet paper, does it…) .
However, I do agree with your penultimate sentence. All the evidence shows that Arabs don’t do democracy very well (as opposed to Israel, if I dare say so); if the sheiks and kings were overthrown, those countries would in my opinion rapidly have repressive republican regimes. And the same goes for an independent Palestinian state for that matter.
– “All the evidence shows that Arabs don’t do democracy very well”
Are you claiming that this is a genetic effect, or what?
Nothing to do with being Arab or any other ethnicity. all to do with regional dominant ideology, Islam in this case. All due to the content of the Koran and the hadiths, allowing only narrow interpretation of its harsh commands.
Notice how minorities are being treated in Muslim countries, IF they still exist. The Koran leaves no space for democracy and a certain type of people like that: the totalitarians.
Bushes & Cheneys love it, Stalin or Hitlcr would have loved it would it have been their state ideology.
Clark
“Are you claiming that this is a genetic effect, or what?”
Of course not – don’t be silly. Forgive me for saying so but your queston sounds a tad racist to me.
I have no opinion why it should be o, I was merely pointing to a historical fact : the Arabs don’t seem to do democracy. I mean, look for example at Iraq : two monarchs (Faisal I and Ghazi, Faisal II ovethrown by the military and killed at the age of 25 or so, General Kassim overthrown and killed a few years thereafter and then the long period of Saddam Hussein, first as Number 2 and then as the Boss man. Or the cesspit of Syrian “politics” after Syria gained independence from France, and so so…..).
Reverting to something which came up yesterday, one of the reasons Israel is a full democracy, unafflicted by military putsches and the like, is probably because the founding fathers of the modern state were of European origin, with experience themselves of oppression and worse.
Just saying…..
Let’s see. You cite overthrow of monarchs and a Western-supported despot as evidence of “Arabs not doing democracy very well”.
And my questioning of your seemingly racist statement makes me seem racist to you.
Your intellectual honesty, such as it was, seems to have hit a new low.
Charles
Apart from your racist slurs: when Hamas was elected in Gaza democratically the whole might of the western world allowed Israel to convert it into an open air prison. Anyway I guess South Africa once was a democracy for whites only.
SA
You are quite right : apartheid South Africa was a democracy for the whites but if course not for the entire population. Far, very far from it!
But I’m unsure why you suddenly referred to South Africa since there is no comparison: while that country was an apartheid state Israel was (and is) a democracy in which Arab citizens of Israel had (and have) full political representation on the same basis as J^^ish citizens of the state.
charles why did israel give south africa the bomb, then?
– “Israel was (and is) a democracy in which Arab citizens of Israel had (and have) full political representation on the same basis as J^^ish citizens of the state”
…but live under very different legal, economic and policing regimes. This makes Israel fully democratic only on paper, when in practice it is very far from it.
A democracy does not occupy other people and treat them to dehumanising conditions. Occupied people have rights you know.
What democracy?
Syria, Yemen and Iran are certainly less repressive than Saudi Arabia or Bahrain.
Iraq, of course, under the West’s ‘friend’ (till he stopped following orders) Saddam Hussein was certainly repressive, but was plied with all manner of weaponry (including chemical weapons) by the West, until he started to take an independent course).
The Venezuelan people made great advances under Chavez (‘Social Programs in Venezuela Under the Chavista Governments’: https://thenextsystem.org/learn/stories/social-programs-venezuela-under-chavista-governments ).
The major problems began (apart from the brief coup in 2002, foretold by Nick Rockefeller to Aaron Russo in 2000) in 2008, with the dramatic drop in the oil price. I believe this was deliberately ordered by the US in order to hit Russia, Iran and Venezuela, and also to make US Fracking economically viable (though environmentally suicidal).
Also, the US slapped sanctions on Venezuela, and worked with the rich businessmen in Venezuela to sabotage the Venezuelan economy, cheat the government out of special rate dollars, hoard and re-export commodities subsidised by the government etc., basically a replay of Nixon’s ‘make the economy scream’ Chile scenario.
And it should be remembered (or learnt) that Venezuela has the biggest proven reserves of oil in the world, though the majority is heavy dirty oil. So needless to say, the ‘Great Satan’ Hegemon wants to get it’s greedy mitts on it.
As for I^rael ‘doing Democracy’, well, let’s say they do it almost as ‘good’ as the USA (which says it all, like Budweiser)!
Sharp Ears
You’re worried about homelessness.
So is every decent person, I’d say.
Myself I financially support the charity “Centrepoint”, which offers shelter (and other life chances) to homeless teenagers in order to get them back onto their feet.
If it were practical in my particular circumstances – and if I was old enough (unlike many on here, I’m not an old person) – I’d probably draw inspiration from a govt approved scheme they apparently have in France, by which old people with space in their house take in a homeless young person for free. It’s a win-win, because the old person gets company (old people are often lonely, n’est-ce pas?), he or she feels and is more secure and he/she gets some help with the general business of living (perhaps the shopping and so on).
I believe you live alone in a house with spare room, so I was just wondering whether you might consider doing something similar, as a practical way of helping to alleviate, albeit modestly. a problem about which you obviously feel deeply?
Some top trolling, tonight, ‘Charles’.
Strange. When I used this word as a noun, the mods didn’t like it and deleted my post.
Another version of :We know where you live’
He’s back to his trolling circa 2014/5 which took me to a dark place throughout my diagnosis, surgery and radiotherapy for cancer.
God bless OUR NHS.
You do know that nobody is obliged to post on here, right?
I mean this kindly – if this blog (or anywhere else online) is taking someone to a “dark place” as you put it – a very serious concern – then the wisest thing is to leave that dark place.
Learned this myself back in the day, from Usenet groups, in which the most detestable characters liked to inflict as much psychological damage as they could on their opponents. They’d do it in packs too, and there was zero restraining influence because there were no moderators. The absolute scum of the universe had as much sport as they liked with anyone with genuine emotions and concerns. Not a good place to be at all.
So it rather beats me why anyone would stick around, when they are suffering because of it.
She dishes it out though and then cries when it’s done to her.
Ian
Where’s the “trolling”? I haven’t complained about the existence of the post on homelessness but merely described a movement in France which brings benefit to both old people and young people who cannot afford to pay commercial rates of rent. It is quite legitimate to bring this movement to the attention of readers and in particular to the attention of readers who feel concerned enough to post on the subject of homelessness. What is wrong with doing something practical about the ills they describe for a change – when they can, of course?
You’re so innocent, aren’t you? All concern and wide-eyed naivety. Do you really expect people to buy into your faux hand-wringing and desperate attempts in demanding people answer your baiting questions?
“I’m not old.”
Are you not? You sound older.
Sharp Ears
August 12, 2018 at 16:07
Having inveigled themselves into Eurovision and European football, the Israelis are at the European Championships being held in Glasgow and Berlin currently.
Why is Israel in the European Championships?
The youth dancers we watched last night were due to perfom in George Sqare Thursday night, But felt they could not, because there were a lot of Israeli flags around.. They all come from the Lajee cultural centre in Aida refugee camp in Bethlehem
http://www.lajee.org/
The Last Two events I went to in Freedom Square, was firstly an emergency Protest after the Snipers war crime at the Start of the Right of return March..The latest event was Anti trump.. And the same Zionist Propagandist approached me at both.. ” what Flag is That ”
I wasn’t sure as he aproached the second time.. I thought ” I’ll Know when he oppens his Trap.. And sure enough ” Do you Know they ( Palestinians ) kill gays ” I personally have 15 friends murdered
He was Shocked when I told him it’s the second Time he has approached me cos I held a Palestine Flag.. Anyway I told him to Piss off But In a Polite Scot’s way ” Away Ye Go “
“Why is Israel in the European Championships?”
Because most are from Europe & identify as “western” ?
In many ways, Israel is a bit of Europe and North Africa transplanted into the Middle East. To be noted moreover that Cyprus is considered to be European enough to be in the EU – and how many miles east of Cyprus is Israel?
As for Israeli participation in the Eurovision Song Contest, various European sporting championships and do forth , I believe that only a very few people (and certainly not friends of Israel) find this odd or wrong; most people find it entirely unremarkable and unobjectionable. As so often, the the man on the Clapham omnibus are far more sensible and unexcitable than members of the left-wing kommentariat.
Well, maybe under current circumstances they are wrong not to object. And it’s those that normalise this behaviour who are the not friends of Israel.
Try asking the people on your bus if they consider Israel to be part of Europe. You will be shocked by the answers.