Civil Liberty Vanishes 548

The sinister potential of coronavirus lockdown to suppress dissent was on display on Monday as police broke up a small group of protestors outside Westminster Crown Court during a case management hearing for Julian Assange. The dozen protestors, who included Julian’s father John Shipton, were all social distancing at least 2 metres apart (except where living in the same household). The police did not observe social distancing as they broke up this small and peaceful protest.

This is a stark illustration of the use of the current emergency powers to suppress legitimate dissent.

For the first time, there was something of a court victory for Assange’s defence team, as they obtained their preferred date of September for resumption of the extradition hearing. Last week magistrate Baraitser had tried to impose a choice of July or November based on the availability of Woolwich Crown Court. As defence witnesses have to come from around the world, July was too early for the defence, while November would mean another lengthy period of incarceration for the unconvicted Assange. This is not the first time the defence have secured the agreement of the US-led prosecution to a procedural request, but it is the very first time Baraitser has acceded to anything proposed by the defence, throughout all the lengthy proceedings.

SO the Assange hearing will resume in September, and of course I intend to be there to report it, if not myself incarcerated. The exact date is not yet known nor the venue. It will not be Woolwich but another Crown Court which has availability. I suspect it may be at Kingston-upon-Thames, because the government will want to maintain the theatre of the peaceful Julian being an ultra-dangerous offender and that is the other purpose built “anti-terrorism court” in London.

It is well worth reading this excellent article from El Pais by Julian’s partner, Stella Morris. It says a great deal that in the state that is actually holding Europe’s most prominent political prisoner, no newspaper would publish it. It is a truism that the general public fail to notice the slide into authoritarianism before it is too late. I confess I never thought to witness the process first hand in the UK. The information on guns in the article is new to me:

After Julian was arrested a year ago, Spain’s High Court opened an investigation into the security company that had been operating inside the embassy. Several whistleblowers came forward and have informed law enforcement of unlawful activities against Julian and his lawyers, both inside and outside the embassy. They are cooperating with law enforcement and have provided investigators with large amounts of data.

The investigation has revealed that the company had been moonlighting for a US company closely associated with the current US administration and US intelligence agencies and that the increasingly disturbing instructions, such as following my mother or the baby DNA directive, had come from their US client, not Ecuador. Around the same time that I had been approached about the targeting of our baby, the company was thrashing out even more sinister plans concerning Julian’s life. Their alleged plots to poison or abduct Julian have been raised in UK extradition proceedings. A police raid at the security company director’s home turned up two handguns with their serial numbers filed off.

We are now to be expected to entrust ourselves to a new coronavirus tracing app, currently being trialed on the Isle of Wight, that allows the government to know precisely where we are and with whom. The results will be permanently stored in a central database – something that is not required for the ostensible purpose of the app. The UK is alone among European states in seeking to create a national centralised database containing traceable unique identifiers for individuals. Precisely to address civil liberties concerns, all other countries are using a devolved database approach with amalgamation only of research useful date which cannot identify individuals. The UK is also refusing to share code with the public, or even precise detail of developers. The US firm Palantir, which has developed the app for NHSX, is coy about where its development is carried out and by whom. So far nothing has been released on the architecture of the App.

I highly recommend this podcast by Matrix Chambers on the very alarming civil liberties implication of the approach to the tracing app by Boris Johnson’s government.

There is no organisation or group with an interest in data privacy which is not sounding the alarm. The Register reports:

Controversially, the NHSX app will beam that contact data back to government-controlled servers. The academics who signed today’s open letter fear that this data stockpile will become “a tool that enables data collection on the population, or on targeted sections of society, for surveillance.”

As we reported yesterday, Britain has abandoned the international consensus on how much data should be collected to fight the COVID-19 pandemic.

The letter said:

We hold that the usual data protection principles should apply: collect the minimum data necessary to achieve the objective of the application. We hold it is vital that if you are to build the necessary trust in the application the level of data being collected is justified publicly by the public health teams demonstrating why this is truly necessary rather than simply the easiest way, or a “nice to have”, given the dangers involved and invasive nature of the technology.

Then a further report in The Register emphasised still more the UK government’s rejection of the Apple-Google app being used by virtually every other country, which is specifically devised to make impossible centralised storing of information which identifies individuals:

Presumably the goal with this kind of explanation is to comfort the vast majority of UK folk who don’t understand how the entire internet economy works by connecting vast databases together.

So long as you can rely on one piece of per-user data – like a “big random number” – everything else can be connected. And if you also have a postcode, that becomes 100 times easier. Ever heard of Facebook? It’s worth billions solely because it is able to connect the dots between datasets.

Indeed, it may be possible to work out who is associating with whom from the app’s ID numbers. Bear in mind, the Apple-Google decentralized approach produces new ID numbers for each user each day, thwarting identification, especially with the ban on location tracking.

Levy also glossed over the fact that as soon as someone agrees to share their information with UK government – by claiming to feel unwell and hitting a big green button – 28 days of data from the app is given to a central server from where it can never be recovered. That data, featuring all the unique IDs you’ve encountered in that period and when and how far apart you were, becomes the property of NCSC – as its chief exec Matthew Gould was forced to admit to MPs on Monday. Gould also admitted that the data will not be deleted, UK citizens will not have the right to demand it is deleted, and it can or will be used for “research” in future.

Yes, that is Matthew Gould in charge of the whole project. Matthew Gould, who as Private Secretary to first David Miliband and then William Hague, and then as UK Ambassador to Israel, held an extraordinary total of eight secret meetings with Liam Fox and Adam Werritty together.

1) 8 September 2009 as Miliband’s Principal Private Secretary (omitted from O’Donnell report)
2) 16 June 2010 as Hague’s Principal Private Secretary (omitted from O’Donnell report)
3) A “social occasion” in summer 2010 as Ambassador designate to Israel with Gould, Fox and Werritty (omitted from O’Donnell report)
4) 1 September 2010 in London (only one September meeting in O’Donnell report)
5) 27 September 2010 in London (only one September meeting in O’Donnell report)
6) 4-6 February 2011 Herzilya Conference Israel (omitted from O’Donnell report)
7) 6 February 2011 Tel Aviv dinner with Mossad and Israeli military
8) 15 May 2011 “We believe in Israel” conference London (omitted from O’Donnell report)

Funnily enough, I was recalling Matthew Gould last week when the Cabinet Secretary, after his “investigation”, published his report “exonerating” Priti Patel of bullying. It reminded me of when then Gus O’Donnell as Cabinet Secretary published his “investigation” into the Fox-Werritty affair, in which Gus O’Donnell systematically lied and covered up the meetings between Fox, Werritty and Matthew Gould, claiming there had only been two such meetings when in fact there were eight. It is also a good moment perhaps to pay tribute to the redoubtable Paul Flynn MP, recently deceased, who after I briefed him attempted to question Gus O’Donnell on the Public Administration Committee about the meetings he was covering up. With admirable persistence, despite continual efforts to block him, Flynn did manage to get Gus O’Donnell to admit directly that one of the Fox/Werritty/Matthew Gould meetings was with Mossad.

Hansard Public Administration Committee 24/11/2011

Q<369> Paul Flynn: Okay. Matthew Gould has been the subject of a very serious complaint from two of my constituents, Pippa Bartolotti and Joyce Giblin. When they were briefly imprisoned in Israel, they met the ambassador, and they strongly believe—it is nothing to do with this case at all—that he was serving the interest of the Israeli Government, and not the interests of two British citizens. This has been the subject of correspondence.

In your report, you suggest that there were two meetings between the ambassador and Werritty and Liam Fox. Questions and letters have proved that, in fact, six such meetings took place. There are a number of issues around this. I do not normally fall for conspiracy theories, but the ambassador has proclaimed himself to be a Zionist and he has previously served in Iran, in the service. Werritty is a self-proclaimed—

Robert Halfon: Point of order, Chairman. What is the point of this?

Paul Flynn: Let me get to it. Werritty is a self-proclaimed expert on Iran.

Chair: I have to take a point of order.

Robert Halfon: Mr Flynn is implying that the British ambassador to Israel is working for a foreign power, which is out of order.

Paul Flynn: I quote the Daily Mail: “Mr Werritty is a self-proclaimed expert on Iran and has made several visits. He has also met senior Israeli officials, leading to accusations”—not from me, from the Daily Mail—“that he was close to the country’s secret service, Mossad.” There may be nothing in that, but that appeared in a national newspaper.

Chair: I am going to rule on a point of order. Mr Flynn has made it clear that there may be nothing in these allegations, but it is important to have put it on the record. Be careful how you phrase questions.

Paul Flynn: Indeed. The two worst decisions taken by Parliament in my 25 years were the invasion of Iraq—joining Bush’s war in Iraq—and the invasion of Helmand province. We know now that there were things going on in the background while that built up to these mistakes. The charge in this case is that Werritty was the servant of neo-con people in America, who take an aggressive view on Iran. They want to foment a war in Iran in the same way as in the early years, there was another—

Chair: Order. I must ask you to move to a question that is relevant to the inquiry.

Q<370> Paul Flynn: Okay. The question is, are you satisfied that you missed out on the extra four meetings that took place, and does this not mean that those meetings should have been investigated because of the nature of Mr Werritty’s interests?

Sir Gus O’Donnell: I think if you look at some of those meetings, some people are referring to meetings that took place before the election.

Q<371> Paul Flynn: Indeed, which is even more worrying.

Sir Gus O’Donnell: I am afraid they were not the subject—what members of the Opposition do is not something that the Cabinet Secretary should look into. It is not relevant.

But these meetings were held—
Chair: Mr Flynn, would you let him answer please?

Sir Gus O’Donnell: I really do not think that was within my context, because they were not Ministers of the Government and what they were up to was not something I should get into at all.

Chair: Final question, Mr Flynn.

Q<372> Paul Flynn: No, it is not a final question. I am not going to be silenced by you, Chairman; I have important things to raise. I have stayed silent throughout this meeting so far.

You state in the report—on the meeting held between Gould, Fox and Werritty, on 6 February, in Tel Aviv—that there was a general discussion of international affairs over a private dinner with senior Israelis. The UK ambassador was present…

Sir Gus O’Donnell: The important point here was that, when the Secretary of State had that meeting, he had an official with him—namely, in this case, the ambassador. That is very important, and I should stress that I would expect our ambassador in Israel to have contact with Mossad. That will be part of his job. It is totally natural, and I do not think that you should infer anything from that about the individual’s biases.

When I put in Freedom of Information requests for the minutes of the eight meetings involving all of Liam Fox, Adam Werritty and Matthew Gould, they came back as blank sheets of paper, with literally everything removed but the date, in the interests of “national security”. When I put in a Freedom of Information request for all correspondence between Adam Werritty and Matthew Gould, I received a refusal on the grounds it would be too expensive to collect it.

I should make my position perfectly plain. I think a coronavirus tracing app is an important tool in containing the virus. I would happily use the safeguarded one being developed by Google/Apple with decentralised data and daily changing identifiers, not linked to postcodes, being adopted by major European governments.

But I think serious questions have to be asked about why the UK government has developed its own unique app, universally criticised for its permanent central data collection and ability to identify individuals from their unique codes. That this is overseen not by a scientist or health professional, but by the man who held all those secret meetings with Fox and Werritty, including with Mossad as admitted to Parliament by the then Cabinet Secretary, frankly stinks.

With grateful thanks to those who donated or subscribed to make this reporting possible.

This article is entirely free to reproduce and publish, including in translation, and I very much hope people will do so actively. Truth shall set us free.


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548 thoughts on “Civil Liberty Vanishes

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  • glenn_uk

    Where lockdowns were enforced early and effectively, restrictions are now being lifted in those countries, because death rates and infections are going way down.

    What’s the story there, Denialists? Did their governments lose the Secret Memo that everyone is supposed to stay in lockdown forever, because… errr… the hoax C-19 (which is totally fake, all play-actors, play-funerals) was meant to give THEM power to destroy the economy, so that… ummm… THEY would become rich, yes! And powerful, because THEY want a mass die-off which is going happen with … errr.. the fake C-19. Hmm. Anyway, seasonal flu! The scientists and medics are all liars, all fake. Fake!

    OK, ok… but anyway, THEY want the (totally fake!) C-19 to make these absolutely unfair and unnecessary restrictions to sink the fossil-fuel industry, make the banks… err… well, anyway, the stock market… ummm…. the pharmaceutical industry (that’s it!) with their totally fake vaccines, and we’ll all get chipped and app’d because we knew better than to follow lockdown procedures, which … ok, so other countries haven’t got our death rates. Haven’t quite figured that out yet… but it’s definitely a hoax! And now we have to carry this app. Wake up sheeple!

    • Johny Conspiranoid

      This is a satire on what you imagine is being said.

    • Bayard

      “Where lockdowns were enforced early and effectively, restrictions are now being lifted in those countries, because death rates and infections are going way down.”

      If you introduce a bunch of restrictions and they have the desired result, that does not in any way prove that all of those restrictions were necessary, just that at least one of them was.
      We know what works in these cases and have known for centuries. How did the authorities in England contain the bubonic plague in London in 1665? Clue: it wasn’t by stopping the entire country working and making them stay in their homes.

  • glenn_uk

    Loony thinks scientists are “those whose opinions cannot be challenged”. (!)

    Here’s news for you chief – since you obviously haven’t been paying attention, and must have missed a lot of basic classes in school. The rest of you denialists should pay attention to this too. It’s really simple, so you shouldn’t have too hard a time grasping it.

    Read and learn:

    What Refutes Science ;
    – Better science

    What Doesn’t Refute Science :

    – Your feelings
    – Your religion
    – Your favourite politician
    – Your half-baked opinion after watching two YouTube videos

    • Loony

      Sure all you need to do now is explain why social media is routinely removing the thoughts of Dr. Daniel Erickson and is obsessively removing the testimony of Dr. Judy Mikovits.

      I have no idea as to the validity of the opinions of Dr. Mikovits and it is a racing certainty that neither does anyone who works for mainstream media – but that does not stop them writing her off as a conspiracy theorist. What exactly is the science that underpins the tactic of smearing people? Or could it possibly be that they have their own favorite brand of science and scientists whose opinions they will not allow to be challenged.

      Religion seems to be a very powerful refutation of science. For example the atheist evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins is afforded great prestige, and his every utterance is accorded great respect. By contrast the non atheist biologist Rupert Sheldrake is universally regarded as an eccentric nut job.

      Feelings certainly refute science. Just look at what has happened to Charles Murray, Tim Hunt and James Watson.

      What is science? Is eugenics a science? The Nazi’s were keen on eugenics and so it is not a science. Bill Gates is keen on eugenics, but phrases it differently to the Nazi’s and so suddenly it is a science again – albeit a science that dares not speak its name.

      It’s complicated game Glenn and your endless tarradiddles are entertaining and the simplicity of your venom has its own unique charm.

      • Giyane


        Red team is a mutation of a George Bush , post 9/11, Republican, anticommunist theory, recently discussed on

        If we were talking g about a virus, and not about a world view called Neocon, we could see that Neil Ferguson has continuity terminology with 9/11 invasion of Iraq.

        I know that sounds as daft as trying to say that Israel had roots in nazism, but that’s not our daftness. That’s the daftness of the Neocons.

        You have to be at least a loony to understand the looniness of our darling PTB.

        • Giyane

          In other words the neocons send a bug to Wuhan, and after the effect of that has sunk in to the public imagination, they send a more virulent strain to Europe in order to achieve the twin aims of culling the superannuation and placing the public under military curfew.

          The scientific spokesperson understood fully that his own BS didn’t apply to him.

      • Lev Ke

        Indeed Loony.

        The whole debate comes down to censorship and freedom. Scientific this, scientist that, but what happens in the meantime is the opposite of science: we are not allowed to find better science, we are not even allowed to see or know what the “science” we are served actually IS.

        In such a religious, narrow, dogmatic, self-censured, medieval setting, a debate about how scientific our science is, is ludicrous.

        First we need to be free to collect data and assess reality.
        Which we aren’t. So let’s focus on getting that freedom and then we can look at data.

        • bevin

          “..let’s focus on getting that freedom and then we can look at data.”
          What’s the plan, Lev? How are we going to achieve the freedom needed to examine all the data?
          And how much data do we need to examine to decide whether the proposition that a virus can be passed on through aerosols or contact is true or false?

        • Stonky

          Way back at the start of the previous thread, I was arguing in favour of masks as opposed to a lockdown. Another poster, Tom Welsh, directed me to an article wirtten by an American doctor, referencing a study carried out by Korean scientists, that purported to show that masks provide no effective protection. Unlike Tom, and anybody else who had lapped up this information because it happened to chime with their views, I took the trouble to go and look at the study.

          It was true that it had been written by scientists. It was true that it concuded: “Neither surgical nor cotton masks effectively filtered {COVID-19} during coughs by infected patients.” And it is a fact that it was laughable, worthless rubbish.

          The methodology was reasonable enough – get infected people to cough a number of times onto petri dishes while not wearing a mask, and then while wearing a surgical mask, and then a cotton mask, and then measure the level of contamination on the dishes. The number of subjects was four, which then shrank down to three, and then, for the most important part of the study, to two. Even with this laughably small sample size, the scientists did manage to generate 21 data points. Here is my summary of what they actually showed:

          In every single data case bar 1, and in all the total-based averages, the masks showed a measurable reduction of contamination to the dish – 20 out of 21 data points. These reductions ranged from 6% to 16% with the surgical masks, and 30% to 46% with the cotton masks. The overall averages were 10% for surgical masks and 38% for cotton masks.

          So having carried out a test on a laughably small sample, and nevertheless produced figures that demonstrated that in 95% of cases masks reduced contamination by between 6% and 46%, they concluded that masks made no difference – presumably because that is what they had wanted to prove to begin with.

          They didn’t even test PP2 masks, which are far more effective than surgical or cotton masks. And yet this study is now being cited all over the world as proof that masks make no difference, by scientists, doctors, people like Tom_Welsh, and anyone else who wants to believe that masks make no difference.

          Scientists nowadays – especially those working in high-profile fields in the public eye like COVID – are about as reliable as journalists. I no longer believe any report of any study unless Ive been able to go and read the study myself and understand it.

      • SA

        ‘Is Eugenics a science?’. No it is a pseudoscientific theory that might pretends to use scientific tools to prove the veracity of its hypothesis or its means to an end.

        • Loony

          Why tell me. Why not take it up with horse breeders, dog breeders etc. They could save a lot of money once they realize that selective breeding is nothing more than pseudoscience.

    • Rhys Jaggar

      Here are a few lessons for you, self-absorbed Glenn-UK:

      1. ‘Due Diligence’ is the professional process by which assertions by third parties are evaluated for accuracy, levels of uncertainty and outright incorrectness.

      My profession for three years included doing due diligence on the assertions of many of the most senior UK Professors, mostly in biological- and biomedical sciences but also in other branches of science and technology too. So when I express my ‘opinions’, it is on the basis that I have a deep and lifelong knowledge of how to evaluate the assertions of science- and medical professionals.

      Have you got a formal procedure for doing due diligence? If so, tell us all about it. Seeing as you are so certain that you know so much more than everyone else.

      2. Have you done ‘due diligence’ on the media, be that TV, radio, Facebook, Twitter, the rest of the net etc etc?

      What conclusions do you reach about the honesty of the BBC, whether they are constantly taking partisan positions on subjects from the EU to Climate Change, politics to Anglo-Zionist Imperialism, Russia-bashing to the role of the White Helmets etc etc?

      Do you even bother reading social media (I do not)? If so, why? Just to see the levels of prejudice, ignorance and vituperative rudeness that can be found there??

      3. Are you aware of the technical intricacies of the RT PCR procedure (I am, as I worked as a professional cancer researcher for 10 years and set up literally thousands of PCR reactions, set up generalised procedures to ensure that starting reagents could never be contaminated with target sequences etc etc)?

      Do you actually trust the ‘results’ of RT PCR all over the world? And are you able to distinguish between the presence of small amounts of viral RNA and actual disease? Anyone who worked as a professional virologist for any length of time knows that viruses reside latently in huge swathes of the population, doing absolutely nothing. But PCR-based tests will see most folks test positive whilst displaying no symptoms whatever. If you were old enough to be aware of it, there was a false scare about child abuse in the late 1980s when scientists using PCR detected widespread HPV DNA in the birth canals of pre-pubertal girls. At the time, it was believed that HPV was only spread sexually. The new data taught the scientists of the day that their theory was wrong….(I was at a conference in Taos, New Mexico when the first data was presented).

      If you think you know all there is to know about PCR and its uses and limitations, I am sure you have heard the utterances of Kary Mullis on the subject. You will also know who Kary Mullis is and his historical significance in modern biological research.

      4. Are you able to distinguish between modelling and data?

      Modelling is an excuse for policy making when you have zero data. It has a long and undistinguished track record of wasting hundreds of billions of pounds/dollars through not being able to make any useful predictions. From GCM climate models to foot and mouth and now into CoVid19, it has been scaremongering nonsense of the highest order.

      I have personally developed models for a venture capital fund when doing due diligence on an investment proposition. I used it to show the fund manager how easy it is to get whatever result you want out of a model just by changing a few input parameters. We then discussed how possible it was to define the various parameters accurately. We concluded that we could not, so the model was simply a model, not of any unique prognostic value.

      5. Can you distinguish between ‘dying of CoVid19; and ‘dying with SARS-CoV2 RNA in your system’?

      I am sure you are fully aware of the way that death certificates are now being wilfully ‘sorted’ to get the CoVid19 death figures that the authorities want to have. They want them as high as possible to scare people as much as possible. They want death certificates signed quickly and the bodies cremated quickly so no subsequent postmortems can prove the death certificate diagnosis to be a bunch of baloney.

      No doubt you think this is all ‘rigorous science’?

      6. Do you think Bill Gates surveilling the whole world is ‘the new normal’ or a disgusting pervert with £100bn+ in wealth wanting to be a completely autocratic dictator, threatening governments the world over if they do not do his bidding?

      Until you factor in the business interests of Bill Gates, Elon Musk et al, not to mention the carnivorous vaccine companies, you will have no true picture on CoVid19. Ever.

      7. Are you able to balance the downside risks of trashing economies and enforcing unhealthy lockdowns on healthy people vs saving a few old people dying from CoVid19?

      That has nothing much to do with science and technology, it has to do with psychology, sociology, politics, humanity and ethics.

      Do you have any knowledge of any of those????

      I could go on a lot, lot, longer: I am just documenting a small part of the due diligence you need to do before you can say you know the true reality of what is going on with the CoVid19 scare.

      • John Goss

        Rhys, I think glenn_uk has touched a nerve! Don’t let him get to you. He never presents actual data – indeed refused to do so to one of my recent comments inviting him to present. He just regurgitates MSM dogma, attacks the person for things they haven’t said, and clearly has no idea what is going on regarding control. Like most people he has probably never heard of Exercise Cygnus.

        This article explains.

        • glenn_uk

          I “regurgitate[] MSM dogma”, do I John?

          Funny – that Jensen scoundrel you like linking videos to have been all over FOX News. That’s the number #1 cable channel in the US, which promotes right-wing pro-Trump propaganda 24 hours a day.

          Now you wouldn’t call the most significant “news” channel a MSM source, would you?

          This Jensen is also a Republican Senator. You trust people like that for your “independent” facts and information these days, do you?

      • glenn_uk

        Get a grip, Rhys – do you really think I’m going to read a 10,000 word whinge-fest like that?

        Man up and take your lockdown like you should, instead of crying like a little girl all the time – it’s pathetic, really.

        • Nick

          That’ll be a no then.
          Point 5 rhys is most relevant. Given my own dad was senior hmso and also had a degree in immunology…it was point 5 he agreed that skewed everything. The tests are really pretty worthless. The actual lack of science around this point of matter makes all the groundwork figures distorted.

          • glenn_uk

            I took a look at 5, given your advice (thanks). Most of what Rhys writes is aggressive and insulting, and if it’s to me will contain personal invective. He has little control over himself. Therefore, I would not normally read anything he says – particularly since he’s fond of giving advice such as advocating the literal torture of children.

            On point 5, there are some anecdotes suggesting an over-count on some occasions. There is more valid evidence to suggest the very opposite – that a major under-count is present.

            Rhys claims this is “to scare the population”, and leaves this as a given. Why not understate the death toll, so the government won’t look so bad? Anyone seriously even think this government enjoys its reputation as the worst performer in Europe?

            You should also notice that zero evidence is presented by Rhys for this – just his assertion.

            I am pretty confident the rest of what Rhys has said is equally unbalanced, cherry-picked and slanted specifically to get the result he’s so aggressive about.

          • glenn_uk

            You show me a reliable source, and I’ll look at it. Your “” type BS is not reliable, sorry.

            Are you happy doing the footwork for Exxon Mobile, the tobacco lobbyists, far right-wing pressure groups (who really, really want Trump to be re-elected), and right wing propaganda sites? Because that is what you are doing.

            When did you start working for Trump, John? I hope he’s paying you well for pushing out EXACTLY what he wants you to push out. The precise opposite of the truth.

          • glenn_uk

            I will repeat this point –

            This Jensen that you’re so besmirched with – the one you linked your fearless video to above (which was all over FOX) – is a Republican Senator. You trust people like that for your “independent” facts and information these days, do you?

      • Dungroanin


        Great contribution – agree with all you say.

        However, firstly, it does not contradict Glen’s little ditty.
        Secondly you have not referred to the excesss deaths above average and outside of the annual flu spike.
        Thirdly you have not adequately referenced the PCR tests being used ( I don’t know either – has that information been made available? Has its methods of collection and processing? – hence i don’t trust it either. )
        Fourthly i see no mention of the antibody/gen blood test – which ought to be more speedy and accurate.
        ( though until we know for sure, that reinfection – hence becoming an active carrier again – is not possible, that too is limited, though based on other infections it is likely not)

        Finally if Science is a Religion, it is my most preferred religion – because wherever you go and meet others who share your religion – you will have common agreement and a means of settling any differences of opinion by use of the tenents of your shared religion!

        Heard the latest on the origin of this bat virus? It came by the fast train to Wuhan Statistion – in gestation during the trip and became transmitted after arrival – it is right next to the Fish Market.

    • Nickle101

      Glenn ‘better science ‘ requires ‘better’ data. I would contend our current data on covid is severely confounded. It will take many months, if not years, to distill sound scientific public health recommendations from the current data.

      I am also aware that current public health policy doesn’t have the luxury of waiting for ‘better’ data. However, I also believe it is prudent to be vigilant of those who seek to exploit the fear and misery caused by the current situation.

      A little less arrogance might be in order.

      • glenn_uk

        Who’s are “those who seek to exploit the fear and misery caused by the current situation” then, Nickle? Let me know and I’ll look out for them.

        it’s also a good idea to look out for these far-right death cult libertarians, like Trump and his whacked out supporters, who are saying there’s no problem here – get back to work.

      • Tatyana

        I see there are doubts about the effectiveness of the mask against the virus. Ladies and Gentlemen, a mask is a barrier that reduces risk by delaying potentially infected particles of the external environment. Like any protective equipment, the mask works together with the correct behavior. For example, a mask is useless if you touch your face with unwashed hands, or if you keep close to people, also,refer to the instruction, it says ‘change every 2 hours or if wet’
        Holding back most of the infection on its surface, the mask will give your immune system a chance to cope with smaller amounts of viral particles.
        It’s like herpes, you may have a “cold on the lips”, but when the immune system successfully suppresses the virus, then there are no manifestations.
        Cooperate with your body, and do not be hostile to it.

        Another Thank you to glenn_uk! A mask works despite of:
        – Your feelings
        – Your religion
        – Your favourite politician
        – Your half-baked opinion after watching two YouTube videos

        • John Goss

          Tatyana, have you ever thought how bad it might be for you repeatedly breathing the same stale air. Furthermore as you say they are harbingers of germs and do not totally prevent virus particles escaping even if fitted correctly. We were made to breathe oxygen in and carbon-dioxide out.

          I credited you with more gumption than to repeat glenn_uk’s doctrinaire schoolteaching. “Now then class, sit up straight and pay attention,” Hmm.

          • Tatyana

            John, why are you breathing the same stale air? Open windows and ventilate your home, just like you undoubtedly do every day at least twice, just do it more often now.

            The task of the mask is not total protection, its task is to reduce the risk, and I specifically highlighted this.
            For higher protection there’s an antiplague suit that the doctor puts on while working in the “contaminated area” of the hospital. It’s not a secrets that many doctors became infected and even died. But you will not advise doctors to refuse protective clothing, simply because it does not provide 100% guaranteed protection?

            Why do you see only two extremes and do not want to accept the simple truth that you need to reduce risk in order to have better chances? Of course you have the right to such an opinion, but many people adhere to the simple common sense “if there is a risk, then protect yourself”

            An attempt to reduce the situation with many unknowns to a “universal solution” reminds me of a joke about a blonde and a dinosaur. Do you know this?
            The blonde was asked:
            – What are the chances that you meet a dinosaur on the street?
            – 50/50.
            – But why do you think so?
            – Oh, it’s very simple. There are only two probabilities, either I meet one, or not.

          • John Goss

            No I would not advise doctors not to wear protective clothing and discard or sterilise it afterwards. That’s what doctors have done long before this panic. However we are not doctors (though some are of course). For the rest of us face-masks might be seen as alienating. Of course that does not mean that those wearing them have any intention of alienating. It is a personal choice I agree.

          • Tatyana

            Absolutely personal choice for you, like using a condom when having sex with a stranger. But also the personal choice of other people in society to avoid “unprotected sex”, so do not be surprised if people in masks avoid communicating with people who insist on the absence of a mask.

      • Dungroanin

        Bravo Tatyana !

        Many people wouldn’t recognise the importance of science in their lives if they were chained to it 24/7 and spending all their time addicted to it!

    • Bayard

      Read and learn:

      What Proves Science Right ;
      – Nothing proves science right, science can only be proved wrong

      What Doesn’t Prove Science right:
      – Your feelings
      – Your religion
      – Your favourite politician
      – Your half-baked opinion after watching two YouTube videos

      • Tatyana

        Experiment reproducibility proves science right. Sugar dissolves in water. You can repeat this experiment many times and get the same result every time.
        This is what science is.

        You may be a Muslim or a Christian, may be a conservative or a socialist, may be angry or happy, and even you may watch a couple of videos on YouTube before, after or during your experiment … That all is irrelevant for the process of dissolving sugar in water: -) Your subjective circumstances do not affect the objective experiment.
        And that is science.

        • Bayard

          Tatyana, what I was alluding to was this: under the Scientific Method, what laymen refer to as truth or facts, is only considered the best working hypothesis to date. The Scientific Method is to continually test that hypothesis until a better hypothesis can be arrived at. The hypothesis is never “proved right”, it is only “not proved wrong”.
          Of course there are various pseudo-sciences where the Scientific Method is abandoned, no-one wastes any time in trying to prove any hypothesis wrong and everyone concentrates their efforts on amassing more “evidence” to “prove the hypothesis right” as if it were a court of law, not a scientific investigation.

          • Tatyana

            Bayard, I agree. I think similar but as if looking from another hill.
            The hypothesis is never “proved right”, it is only “not proved wrong”.
            for me it is
            The hypothesis is never “proved universal”, it is only “proved right for a set of specific conditions”.

  • jazza

    hey hope everyone has a great VE Day – you know, remembering ‘the winners’ of the war from your prison cell

    • jazza

      “Freedom’s just another word for nothin’ left to lose
      And nothin’ ain’t worth nothin’ but it’s free”

      • Ben

        Interestingly the COVID death Cultists from Right or Left are thinning their own ranks with the Freedumb rants.

        We just want you to socialize with your own kind. Is that asking too much? 🙂

  • Mary

    Censorship happening on Twitter.

    Craig Murray Retweeted
    Not REV STU

    Why has @RevStu account been suspended?
    Why has @SealandGazette account been suspended?
    Why has @WingsScotland account been suspended?


    Please RT!

    The MD Twitter UK is Dara Nasr – Ex Google.

    • Stonky

      Thanks for posting this Mary. It’s at least as important as the ongoing debate about the rights and wrongs of COVID. It’s another flagrant example of the suppression of freedom of speech that Craig’s article is actually about.

      Stu has had a lot of flak for his outspoken stance on GRA, but I suspect that worse things might be afoot. It’s a fact that there is a deeply unpleasant convergence of interests here between Westminster, the Wokistocracy at the head of the SNP, the Labour Party (Scotlandshire branch), and the Conservative Party (Scotlandshire branch). Not a single one of them wants to see the appearance of a List Party with a strong commitment to independence at the next Holyrood elections “stealing” seats from the latter two and making life uncomfortable for Woman H and her fellow “soft independents”.

      What better way to abort the party before birth than to destroy the social media presence of one of its loudest advocates and most prominent figureheads?

      It won’t work though. As I posted on Wings yesterday, if you can’t join them, beat them.

  • SA

    Just to continue from the thread below started by Easily Confused then continued by Tony and others about Judy Mikovits and her Plandemic CT.
    The documentary itself and Dr Mikovits history is ‘debunked’ by the following
    The writer is Sean Conners and the website is a website that claims to analyse news. I do not necessarily endorse the website or the writer, I have posted the link because it is a cogent discussion of the career of Dr Mikovits with very good factual discussion and many links. I cannot find anything specific about the writer, but from the article it appears that he works on the law and accounting side of health care in USA. The website itself is a bit coy about its sponsors and affiliates but it seems to be affiliated with Amazon, but then so is half the world these days. I mention these weaknesses in order to make it clear that I am aware of these problems.
    But the facts are that Dr Mikovits apparently earth shattering discovery, with other co-authors is that she found a link between XMRV (Xenotropic Murine Leukemia Virus-related Virus) and Chronic fatigue syndrome (CSF) later on she also expanded this to include Autism, various cancers and other diseases. Xenotropic viruses although derived from a host, in this case mice, do not infect the host, but can infect another species and in this case it was thought to be the case that it was commonly found in humans. It was initially found in cells of patients with prostate cancers but it is possibly a contaminant in human cell lines used in research. Here are two further sources of information on XMRV
    The original paper linking XMRV and CSF was published in Science, a very reputable publication, in 2009. However subsequently the publication was initially modified and then retracted by the journal because results could not be replicated by other labs. Subsequent to this Dr Mikovits, who had earlier published one significant publication concerning HIV, has not published anything of note in peer reviewed journals. As seen above, she was also involved in other legal disputes. The lack of further research however did not stop Dr Mikovits from becoming a self appointed expert on the safety of vaccines.
    Just for balance I shall also quote from vaccine sceptic websites to illustrate some of what she believes in:
    “Judy Mikovits, PhD is a biochemist and molecular biologist with more than 33 years of experience. Internationally known, a veritable “rock star” of the scientific world, she served as the director of the lab of Antiviral Drug Mechanisms at the National Cancer Institute before directing the Cancer Biology program at EpiGenX Pharmaceuticals. She later developed the first neuroimmune institute. Her early work focused on cancer and HIV, her latest on Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and autism. She has published more than 50 peer-reviewed articles.
    In 2011, she made the discovery that destroyed her career. She found that at least 30% of our vaccines are contaminated with gammaretroviruses. Not only is this contamination associated with autism and chronic fatigue syndrome, it is also associated with Parkinson’s, Lou Gehrig’s disease, and Alzheimer’s.”
    The problem is that this is not based on facts, but her last publication is from 2012 and that actually is a refutation of her previous findings:
    “A multicenter blinded analysis indicates no association between chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis and either
    xenotropic murine leukemia virus-related virus or polytropic murine leukemia virus.”
    So where do these claims that her earth shattering discovery that vaccines are contaminated with XMRV come from? not from a peer reviewed scientific publication but probably from this:
    Is this now how we accept ‘scientific findings’ by YouTube publications?
    She now claims various areas of expertise, RNA vaccines, general safety of vaccines and now the origin of SARS-Cov2 and so on but without any publications to support this. So please Tony: Dr Mikovits can express her opinion on RNA viruses but it is just that, an opinion not based on any expertise.

  • Easily Confused

    So much news, so many views, lots of links, folk talking in riddles and a fair bit of squabbling. To someone new to this blog its a blinking minefield. No wonder I am confused.

    • grafter

      It’s all part of the misinformation game resulting in widespread fear and panic amongst the sheeple. Welcome to the asylum.

    • Bayard

      However, I very much doubt that this will prevent the developers of the app from being paid for it, so who win-win: not only do they get paid, they don’t have to do any debugging of take any flak for something that doesn’t work. One might even be cynical and say that this was the desired result all along.

      • Laguerre

        I agree to a degree. It’s rather like the use of Zoom for the virtual parliament, the Tory-chum contractors were paid a top price of £375 million for a limited adaptation (as I suppose) of a low cost widely used public application, which is heavily criticised for its lack of security. On the other hand, the issue with the app is civil liberties, as Craig writes. The contractor may not be bothered whether the app is ever used, the rest of us are.

        • Bayard

          “On the other hand, the issue with the app is civil liberties, as Craig writes. The contractor may not be bothered whether the app is ever used, the rest of us are.”

          It’s not just civil liberties, the damn thing doesn’t even do what it’s supposed to do. If the app is used, there will be a lot of grief heading the developers’ way over this, even if the civil liberties aspect is ignored, whereas, if it is not used, they avoid that grief.

  • John Goss

    Unlike certain people, glenn_uk for one, I have done some research into COVID-19. Testing for COVID-19 is very difficult and results are rarely conclusive. This is how the figures are manipulated and presents the reasons why

    “. . . nobody really knows if COVID-19 is killing them”.

    Jerry Day goes on to explain what he sees as the reason this false pandemic is being used.

    “This disaster was predictable and inevitable.”

    In the interests of fairness there are counterclaims that the tests for COVID-19 are specific.

    This article finishes:

    “It’s false. SARS-CoV-2, the agent of COVID-19, has unique sequences which are different from other coronaviruses. The PCR tests are very specific.”

    It is out of my field of expertise but I’m sure glenn_uk can tell you which one is right.

    • John Goss

      Whether it really is easy to separate the various coronaviruses from tiny samples exploded I don’t know. I posted this link on the last thread which shows how closely-related these viruses are, especially MERS-COV-2.

      “The virus that causes Middle East respiratory syndrome, or MERS, sparked an outbreak in Saudi Arabia in 2012 and another in South Korea in 2015. The MERS virus belongs to the same family of viruses as SARS-CoV and SARS-CoV-2, and likely originated in bats, as well. The disease infected camels before passing into humans and triggers fever, coughing and shortness of breath in infected people.”

      Because of the close relationship in the coronavirus family it seems that those affected in the previous MERS-COV-2 epidemics in Saudi Arabia (2012) and South Korea (2015) are largely immune to SARS-COV-2.

      • OnlyHalfALooney

        There are also coronavirus varieties already widely spread among the population. These coronaviruses (229E, OC43, NL63 and HKU1) account for 10% to 15% of common colds.

        A virologist on Dutch TV (I forget his name) expressed the hope that Covid-19 would eventually evolve into something similar.

        The more I read about Covid-19 testing, the more suspicious I become.

        Perhaps it’s just my suspicious nature, but deploying mass testing when the tests are dubious and promoting tracing apps that simply won’t work properly seems rather sinister. In any case, huge amounts of money will be paid to companies that are promoting false solutions. There will be little (if any) public scrutiny or questioning thanks to the elite-controlled MSM propaganda outlets. (And now the large internet platforms are being used for censorship of dissenting voices too.)

        • Tony M

          I made a post last night (deleted) that linked to research suggesting recent antibodies for common cold (also coronavirii) confer some immunity for this new one, and older residual immune memory produces a milder effect.

          Can infer too that being cooped up long-term in care-homes is positively harmful in itself as when something like this then comes along they’re especially susceptible, their immunity having waned.

          In a new post censorship elsewhere is bemoaned.

          [ Mod: From the comment that was deleted:

          What would you say glenn, Clark, SA who’ve been loving every moment of this, if we’d passed peak infection with as many as 80% infected but asymptomatic before lockdown even began, that many of the old, and those with co-morbidities have succesfully beaten it, have anti-bodies and primed immune systems, that anti-bodies for other coronaviruses cold, flu etc provide some primed immunity. That the virus might have been around in all but the most remote parts of Britain, since possibly October 2019? That many severe infections and indeed deaths might have been iatrogenic?

          I think it unlikely you’ll eat humble pie, but do at least come down off your pedestals.

          Casting knowingly false allegations in order to provoke a heated response is not conducive to constructive argument or debate. It’s contrary to the blog etiquette and therefore makes the comment eligible for deletion. ]

    • SA

      It took me about 50 seconds after listening to the first link, not to proceed: you come up with a link to a You Tube video, not a good start, because that is not science. The speaker then talks about an article in Global research, well, not really a scientific source, then he says it is taken from a medical conference where the speaker did not want to be identified because he is peddling conspiracy theories and might get struck of, or coded words to that effect. I stopped there.

      • John Goss

        Fair enough SA. We have limited time. Of course the author of the second link had to watch the first in order to contradict it.

  • michael norton

    When we are delivered of the Daily Brief from Downing Street by idiotic repetition after repetition, they never quite say where the new deaths arise? That to which I allude, is the origin of infection.

    Let us for a moment guess that 60% of people who die from/with covid-19 are over seventy, what percentage died in a nursing home.
    In a care home.
    In a hospice,
    or in hospital after contracting covid-19 in a care home.

    The remaining 40% of people who are of working age,
    what percentage caught it on public transport, caught it whilst in hospital for another reason,

    people can’t just be catching it out in the open, going for their daily walk or cycle ride.

    So where are people still catching it?

    • Tatyana

      they are not ‘still catching it’, they develop illness today from contacting virus 14 days ago, trace who was infected then and you’ll learn who is the reason.

      • michael norton

        we in the United Kingdom have been doing social distancing for two months now, yet the apparent infections and deaths keep increasing, now most deaths in Europe.
        It is thought that most deaths happen in Care Homes, in Nursing Homes, in Hospices, as these victims usually do not leave their sheltered accommodations, unless by magic, carriers must enter these accommodations and infect the victims.

        So we must ask our restricting of our liberties government, why are they killing our old people?

        • Tatyana

          It’s very disturbing.
          A site that forecasts infection progression also suggests that mortality in the United Kingdom continues to exceed predicted estimates.

          I don’t want to voice cynical suspicions, but … I’ll voice what we think here in Russia and you make conclusions for yourself. We have an opinion in Russia that your people do not support their old parents in the way that is customary with us. Another opinion is that the population in European countries in its whole average is ‘older’ than ours. This creates a certain ‘burden’ on the state, therefore, migration to your countries is encouraged. Roughly speaking, you need young people of childbearing and working age, to maintain and balance your society more, than elder people who need been taken care of.

          • Bayard

            It would be interesting to compare the proportion of old people who are cared for by their descendants (children/grandchildren) against the proportion who are put in care homes in Russia and the UK.

  • jazza

    they saved us from the germans to lock us up themselves – “every day is like sunday”

  • Mary

    There is such a strange coincidence in the Covid virus arrival and commemorations for VE day. Just saying.

    You should see and hear what the ‘news’ channels are broadcasting today.

    • Easily Confused

      Yes, here we are celebrating the day we won the war for our freedom, prisoners in our own home having handed power to our own police force to keep us there.

    • SA

      What do you mean by a coincidence? Covid-19 arrived on these shores in February and VE day arrived on 8th May. In this case, it is also a strange coincidence that Covid-19 has also Easter and who knows, and I sincerely hope not, even Christmas.

      • glenn_uk

        You should listen to the sainted Mary, SA.

        The Chinese cooked this up back in Wuhan sometime last year, and got some super-spreader (how did they know?) to infect a bunch of people at ski resorts in Italy, knowing precisely how long it would take to reach the UK. They also knew there would be a shambolic response from the British government – doing things late and half-heartedly most of the time, and preferring gesture politics and chasing (and fiddling) artificial targets – so we would really have the pandemic underway by VE day.

        Damned cunning, these Chinese.

  • Tony M

    Masks can increase the hazard if not used well, if not close fitting, if used one way round then the other, inside out so to speak once used. The same goes for scarves and things, some intelligence is required if they’re to be effective and not a hazard in themselves. Take your outdoor shoes off at the door too when coming into the house.

    • Tatyana

      Absolutely agree, Tony M.
      People need to stop thinking about masks as of accessory, such as sunglasses or umbrellas. A mask is a means of personal sanitation, like a baby diaper.

      • Ivan+Sharkov

        I visited a hospital in London three days ago. Just for the record – no one, doctors, nurses, receptionists, security or any other personnel, was wearing a mask.
        I spent just over three hours there and counted only two patients with masks.
        I am not arguing whether it is good or bad to wear them. I am just sharing my experience.
        Still from what I have read on the subject masks are more useful when worn by people who have the disease compared to those who want to avoid getting infected.

          • Ivan+Sharkov

            It is not the first time I was visiting. I was there about ten days ago too. Not much has changed.

          • Tatyana

            The nearest working hospital to the place my parents live in, was closed after 1 covid patient visited it. The virus is here regardless of what people think about wearing a mask.

          • Ivan+Sharkov

            This is exactly what happened in England. Some hospitals were closed, NHS centres were closed and only telephone appointments were available. That doesn’t necessarily mean it was right to do so.
            Planned operations were cancelled as if it is only Covid-19 we should be worried about.
            I do accept that the virus is here. That doesn’t mean Health Care System should be only looking after the ones who got infected by it.

    • Bayard

      Tony M, I think you are misunderstanding the purpose of masks. You do not wear them to protect you from COVID-19, you wear them to protect others from you, if you are infected. They don’t have to be close fitting to work and they cannot be a hazard, the only way they can have viruses on them is if the wearer is already infected, in which case the virus can do no further harm.

    • SA

      Motor cars are ever so much more hazardous, and so are kitchen knives, various electrical equipment, bicycles, using mobile phones while walking. None of these means that we do not use these.

    • michael norton

      Those people who need to travel into a workplace will be urged to consider choosing more active ways to travel like walking and cycling.
      The intention is to take pressure off roads and public transport networks.
      It is believed that Mr. Shapps will talk about using the unique “opportunity” of the lockdown restrictions to change the way we get to work.

      They are now very, very, very keen for as many as possible to take up cycling.

      They will had to cough up a large amount of money for cycle ways.
      What they do not want is to return to the days of single-occupant car driving.

      Only problem with not wanting that, is you will not get infected on your own, in your own car, difficult is it not?

  • Squeeth

    My phone has a piece of string between two empty baked beans tins, I don’t think it can download anything.

  • John Goss

    I am thankful I wasn’t one of them, But they should also read this:

    And are we on the way out of this lockdown which is causing the depression? Walking round the lake yesterday morning I got the whiff of a change in the air, with people not stepping aside so much, and talking more to one another outside of family. So perhaps. However when the ensuing depression takes hold and those same dedicated followers of MSM start complaining, I shall gently remind them of how they bent over backwards to cause the depression.

    • Node

      When we are inevitably informed of a second wave, and lockdown is re-imposed, the propaganda will blame sloppy social distancing, particularly at protest gatherings. It will be our own fault, some people didn’t strictly obey orders and now everyone has to suffer for it, we really must police ourselves better if we want to be allowed out again.

    • Loony

      Tatyana – I note that you are both verbally and visually dedicated to the use of masks.

      I also note that you recognize that masks do not provide 100% protection. Is it not the case that additional protection could be afforded by the wearing of a full biological warfare suit?

      I am curious as to the logical reasoning that underpins the promotion of mask wearing but does not extend to the promotion of wearing biological warfare suits.

      • ET

        Practicality, availability? Not everyone can get their hands on a hazmat suit and I suspect it would be difficult to operate in one. I don’t know, I have never put one on. However most can fashion a mask of some sort. Different materials being better or worse in terms of how much they allow particles the size of virus laden droplets to pass. And there is the rub.

        In a similar vein to how dieting products are advertised “as part of a calorie controlled diet x product may be beneficial in helping to lose weight (paraphrased)” I would assess the benefit of masks.

        Probably they offer some degree of protection subject to many caveats such as fitting correctly, time used, breathability etc etc.
        A mask will only protect you from virus entry through you nose/mouth, not your eyes, hands, it getting on your clothes etc
        Also it may give someone a sense of being more protected than is actually the case.

      • Tatyana

        Thanks for the question, Loony. I hope this is a sincere question, not a mockery.

        In my region, a full quarantine has been introduced, that is, a binding official order of the authorities as prescribed by an authorized doctor. Here are figures for my region, as you see they are around Wuhan’s figures when they locked it down

        My exits from the house are very short controlled contacts with the external environment. I watch myself while visiting public places, a mask, gloves and distance are quite reasonable and sufficient while all the people around me do the same.
        To treat your possible curiosity, there are gas masks in my household, also, if there would be a need for a full chemical protection suit – for example, if we have a large number of infected citizens who start falling down in the streets and me having absolute necessity to go out – don’t you doubt, I would wear such a suit.
        So far, the situation in the region is under control, the number of patients does not increase critically. I simply reduce stupid risks without rushing to extremes like carelessness or paranoid anxiety. I currently wear FFP3 NR D valve masks by 3M, but it is ugly, so I leave the previous photo 🙂

        • Tony M

          Surely if it’s valved, your exhalations are unrestricted, unfiltered?

          • Tony M

            I do have (unvalved) FFP2 masks for certain occupational exposures, which I think superior to the thing given me in hospital last week, I wasn’t given one whilst in hospital for a couple of hours in an out-patient orthpaedic trauma unit this morning. Close up personal treatment staff were all masked but very many other staff were not, even main and departmental reception staff were not.

          • Tony M

            Not you, but everyone else is losing half the benefit of the mask, it’s almost OK if everyone is 100% perfectly masked. It depends whether you’re masked for your own protection or the protection of others.


            The outflow patterns with valved masks hardly differ from those with no mask at all. It’s painful for me to type, I don’t want to press the matter with you, whatever you do keep well, you’re a breath of (unfiltered) fresh air here.

          • Tony M

            Don’t get me started on the efficacy, the usefulness of gloves. 🙂

          • Tatyana

            If the authorities give out to us for free those masks that they consider the most protective, then I will only welcome this. So far, I wear what I was able to buy and what I consider to be the best relevant protection for the current day.

          • Bayard

            “Why should I filter my exhalations if people around me filter their inhalations?”

            Because, to usefully filter your inhalations, you need a surgical mask that seals to the skin all round, whereas to usefully filter your exhalations, all you need is a handkerchief tied round your face.

        • Loony

          Tatyana – Thanks for the response. It was a. serious question and you have provided a serious answer

      • Bayard

        “I am curious as to the logical reasoning that underpins the promotion of mask wearing but does not extend to the promotion of wearing biological warfare suits.”

        Simple, the mask is there to protect others, not the wearer.

  • michael norton

    Italy becomes the third country in the world with more than 30,000 deaths.
    US jobless rate rises to 14.7% – the highest level since World War Two.

    There are going to be many suicides because of the Lock-Down, some people will already be dead but because of the Lock-Down, it will not be known they are dead.

  • Ben

    Jeebus Christ Almighty..

    Masks keep the droplets suppressed ffs.

    If you ever seen the spittle discharged using a backlight, the spray goes from a meter to two with no bullshit..

    • Ben

      But like you say the mask mostly protects OTHERS so no need for that PPE.. 🙂

      • Tatyana

        Mostly or not, if I pass by a place where someone might cough, sneeze, exhale etc. viruses, I’m happy to have a barrier. Again, I draw analogy with unprotected sex. Just think of it.

        • Ben

          Of course it provides the wearer some protection from scofflaws and the antipathy of the jaded masses. However, they have many alternatives for their Joker-Style mischief.

          If only they didnt want to burn us all down

  • mrjohn

    if you want to safeguard against the boogieman virus, eat well, sleep well, get plenty if exercise in the sun, wash your hands with soap and water and rinse your mouth and gargle. You do not need an app.
    l am beginning to wonder if the death rate is due to boredom and dispair.

    • glenn_uk

      You think they all spontaneously got bored and despaired themselves to death in nursing homes, on a worldwide basis, in such large numbers in the past couple of months?

    • George+McI

      Ooh scarey! I wonder what tomorrow will bring? I’ll bet it’s even more scarey.

    • glenn_uk

      Allow me to quote someone back at ya (courtesy of the NYT):

      The lines of attack against the conclusions of health experts are familiar to those who have studied the climate-change denial movement, which has long relied on what Naomi Oreskes, a science historian at Harvard, called “motivated reasoning.”

      “It’s, ‘I don’t like what this implies; therefore I’m going to deny the evidence, and I’m going to question the models, and I’m going to question the motivations of the people who do it,”’ Dr. Oreskes said.

      Keep pushing out that right-wing propaganda there, N – Trump loves you for it!

  • N_

    80% of “excess deaths” in Britain during the pandemic have been UNRELATED to the virus.

    That’s not even counting those who’ve died of nothing to do with virus but have had it mentioned on their medical certificates of the causes of death because medics know that’s where the money is, or perhaps they did contract the flu-type bug that was going around a few weeks ago because, after all, hospital is obviously a good place to catch such bugs.

    The Guardian is blaming the victims themselves, saying they’re too feckless to go to hospital. The truth is that most hospitals are largely empty because many wards have been shut down.

    NHS = No Help for the Sick?

    • N_

      Correction: the figure is 80% of “excess deaths” AT HOME, not 80% of total excess deaths.

      But still…

    • glenn_uk

      “…because medics know that’s where the money is […]”

      They get a bonus for recording a C-19 death? Fascinating – could you provide us with your evidence for that, please?

      Not trying to sea-lion you here. This is a frequently made claim about climate change too – they’re just all in it for the money. In fact, the same tactics used for climate change denialists are coming thick and fast for C-19 denial. Coincidence? I think not. The Mercers and the Heartland Institution, the far-right with their apologists on Fox, “Q-Anon”, Alex Jones – they’re all singing from the same hymn sheet these days. Trump and big business loves this message too.

      I hope you realise the company you’re in here.

      • Node

        They get a bonus for recording a C-19 death? Fascinating – could you provide us with your evidence for that, please?

        Sen. Scott Jensen, R-Minn., a physician in Minnesota :

        Jensen said, “Hospital administrators might well want to see COVID-19 attached to a discharge summary or a death certificate. Why? Because if it’s a straightforward, garden-variety pneumonia that a person is admitted to the hospital for – if they’re Medicare – typically, the diagnosis-related group lump sum payment would be $5,000. But if it’s COVID-19 pneumonia, then it’s $13,000, and if that COVID-19 pneumonia patient ends up on a ventilator, it goes up to $39,000.”

        This claim has been fact-checked and verified by Snopes with some minor quibbling over wording.

        • glenn_uk

          Ah, Jensen. A Republican Senator, who you now trust for your “facts”. Now he couldn’t possibly show any bias, could he? Straight down the middle, honest and fair. Talking about Fair and Balanced, this crap was all over Fox News – another unimpeachable source for truth and freedom!

          FOX News followed up this Jensen scoundrel, promoting his story at every opportunity, and it also went on Alex Jones’ far-right Infowars, Q-Anon, and all the usual right-wing/fascist outlets. Great company you’re keeping, fascinating sources.

          And never mind these claims by your Republican Senator hero Jensen have been utterly contradicted by experts who say the actual figure is way under-counted:

          Never mind all that, because they’re not saying what you want to hear, are they?

          Tell me Node – would you be attending the pro-Trump “Open up America!” rallies if you got the chance?

          • glenn_uk

            Node – that wasn’t “proof” – it was a Republican Senator making allegations about the US healthcare system, and going on to suppose that this would lead to fraud (and hence inflate figures) in the total absence of any proof.

            Besides, alleged dubious healthcare billing practices in the US hardly explains away an on-going worldwide pandemic, does it?

            You go on to show something (again in the US) that C-19 patients will get billed at a higher rate. Would you not expect them to? Shouldn’t an admission of a highly contagious, deadly disease with all sorts of complications get charged at a higher rate?

            How does that automatically mean the whole thing is fraudulent, and so – somehow! – that means there’s no such thing as C-19, or whatever it is you’re so desperate to believe?

            The proof simply isn’t there! It’s just a rather pathetic allegation, with rather improbable surmising, which has rattled around the right-wing echo chamber, and now here you are helping propagate it a bit more.

          • Node

            Keep digging, Glenn. I didn’t mention fraud and I didn’t try to explain away an on-going worldwide pandemic. Nor did I quote Alex Jones or Fox, you brought up all these straw men. I showed you that the American healthcare system does indeed award “a bonus for recording a C-19 death”? Do you still dispute it?

          • glenn_uk

            OK, so what exactly is your point, Node? Or is this just some weak “Oh – this looks a bit odd!” sort of non-point, enough of which are supposed to explain away the very existence of C-19?

            I doubt if you’ll answer that, but will instead pretend that you’ve – somehow – got a winner there.

            By the way, you don’t appear to understand what a “straw man” is. My pointing out that all these little propaganda points of yours, John “hugs of death” Goss et al coincide precisely with Trump’s and his far-right agents, is not a “straw man”. A “straw man” is when one sets up an argument to defeat it. Introducing information you haven’t presented (either because you didn’t know or won’t admit it) is not a straw man. The difference should be rather obvious.

          • Clark

            N_ makes a claim that British covid-19 diagnoses are motivated by payments, and Node cites the US healthcare system as confirmatory evidence?

            Bit of an obvious point I suppose, but…

          • Node

            Whether or not it’s above board is not the issue. Glenn asked for proof that US hospitals have an incentive to record deaths as Covid-19. Thank you for confirming it.

          • glenn_uk

            OK, they might have an incentive if they don’t mind committing fraud. Is that really the only point you have here? If it is, it’s a rather weak one, I have to say!

          • Dawg

            @ Node.

            Actually, the fact-checking conclusion from Snopes was “Mixture” – i.e. a mixture of true and false claims. Although the figures aren’t a complete invention, they relate to a very specific set of circumstances which Jensen didn’t mention. Instead he insinuated that US doctors can get an extra payout for every person they diagnose with Covid-19 – and that’s just false. It seems that you’re promoting the false message, rather than the true one.

            Snopes.comIs Medicare Paying Hospitals $13K for Patients Diagnosed with COVID-19, $39K for Those on Ventilators?
            A spokesperson for CMS told us that whether hospitals are paid by Medicare for care of a COVID-19 patient would depend on whether that patient was covered by Medicare insurance. CMS also told us there is no set or predetermined amount paid to hospitals for diagnosing and treating COVID-19 patients, and the amounts would depend on a variety of factors driven by the needs of each patient. Pay-outs would also depend on the variance of the costs of medical care in different regions.
            The closest match for the numbers cited by Jensen we could locate was in an April 7, 2020, article published by the health care nonprofit Kaiser Family Foundation. As a starting point to estimate how much hospitals might get paid by the federal government for treating uninsured COVID-19 patients, the article used average payments for hospital admissions for similar conditions in 2017:

            For less severe hospitalizations, we use the average Medicare payment for respiratory infections and inflammations with major comorbidities or complications in 2017, which was $13,297. For more severe hospitalizations, we use the average Medicare payment for a respiratory system diagnosis with ventilator support for greater than 96 hours, which was $40,218.

            But while these industry estimates are similar to the numbers Jensen cited, they do not represent actual Medicare payments to hospitals for COVID-19 diagnoses or treatment, or even a national average of such payments.
            We therefore rate this claim “Mixture.”

            The payment is meant to be a recompense for additional expenses, not a bonus for fiddling the figures. The existence of the US Coronvirus Act does nothing to impugn the integrity of US doctors. How could it? In order to reach your conclusion you just have to assume that they’re crooked. So you’re just cashing out your own assumption. I’m sure there are lots of things you could do at your work (if you have any) to cheat the system to your own benefit, but I’m sure you wouldn’t (… or rather I’m not sure, because the dishonesty of your arguments here doesn’t signify unimpeachable virtue).

            Anyway, the whole argument is about dollar payments in the U$ of A. There is no equivalent system of payment per (un)insured diagnosis in the UK – instead it’s funded on the basis of operational capacity. So even if you are accusing the American doctors of deliberate fraud on a large scale, your sly insinuation on the basis of someone else’s misleading claim utterly fails to account for the equivalent swell in Covid-19 diagnosis in Britain.

          • Node

            Glenn, SA and Dawg. You all insist I am alleging fraud but if you look you’ll see I haven’t so, chat amongst yourselves about it, I have better things to do than respond to a straw man.. You’ve got the proof you asked for Glenn.

          • glenn_uk

            Don’t worry, Node – I’m not disappointed because I knew you wouldn’t provide any sort of answer.

            So you just saw this one thing in isolation and decided to post it, just “because”, entirely context free. Perish the thought that you hoped it would finally be some actual evidence in your increasingly desperate campaign to “prove” C-19 doesn’t exist!

            Incidentally, here’s something else which provides the absolute opposite of that point (that you weren’t trying to make, of course not!) there’s an over-count:


            New figures showing total death rates in the Netherlands continue to indicate far more people have died than statistics would indicate, the public health institute RIVM said on Friday.

          • Clark

            Node, stop being sneaky. You’re clearly attempting to reinforce N_’s conspiracy theory that medics are committing fraud. Why deny it? You’re constantly pushing precisely the same conspiracy theory yourself. If you believe that what you’re doing is in any way rational, you should spend a week or so in quiet contemplation.

          • SA

            It is not an incentive, it is because there are more costs involved in dealing with Covid-19 cases. It shows how superficial you read things Node, you grabbed the headline. If you know how the US system works, they have to justify the diagnosis to get the insurance money.

    • glenn_uk

      Back to N, who appears to have sneaked off after starting all this (nice trolling there, bro!), I wonder why N wants to promote Trump’s C-19 denialism? Having done the rounds in the right-wing echo chamber, N wants to give it an extra boost.

      Cuddling up to Trump and the far-right – very strange behaviour for someone who thinks he’s a Marxist.

  • michael norton

    Around 8,000 more Britons have died in their own homes since the start of the covid-19 Pandemic than ordinarily, with 80 per cent dying of conditions unrelated to Covid-19.
    It is thought they have been staying away from NHS over fear of being infected by covid-19

    At a time in the very near future, there will likely be a cross-over
    as more people than normal die or commit suicide over the Lock-Down or fear of covid-19

    • glenn_uk

      A major problem with C-19 always was overwhelming the healthcare systems, so people will die of preventable illness.

      Of course, cabin fever will also take its toll. You can see that right here on these comments pages, where participants given up all attempts at rationality and are denying obvious facts, and demanding that no action whatsoever be taken in the midst of a pandemic! We have people suggesting they go out and hug each other to spread disease, that the whole thing is a hoax, that the government is ginning up the figures to make themselves look even worse!

      We have people with zero medical knowledge pretending that thousands of deaths a week are nothing to do with what the medical staff conclude. Because they are all “in on it” too! A worldwide conspiracy, which just took off because governments want to collapse their own economies! It’s utter madness.

      Cabin fever, combined with right-wing propaganda – in the middle of a pandemic – what a deadly cocktail.

  • michael norton

    I do not think we should ever had Lock-Down.
    We should have been more careful of old, ill people in nursing homes.
    Many people will have caught it in NHS units, in care homes, in nursing homes, in sheltered accommodations.
    Ordinary, fit, younger people should have been allowed to get on with their lives.
    In the U.K. we are facing the worse economic catastrophe in 300 years, because of Lock-Down

  • michael norton

    The U.K. government seem very keen on the poplulace taking up cycling.
    I have just been cycling along the Thames Path, near Windsor, something I often do, notices all along it telling you that cycling has been banned because of Covid-19.

    It would be handy if the left hand would shake the right hand, and agree on a course of action.

  • frankywiggles

    This comments section is more unhinged than that of the Daily Telegraph. Why the hell is CM attracting this far right libertarian death cult?

    • Clark

      The attraction of conspiracy theory. It makes people feel very clever without actually having to learn anything. All they ever need to say is “que bono” or “follow the money” or another similar formulation, and presto!, better than your average sheeple. Or at least different.

      • Clark

        I bet it’s moved to the front thread by now unless the mods are on it. Nothing better than washing your dirty linen in public, eh? I’m off to have a look…

        • Clark

          Actually quite free of it, as is “More Information Wars”. That’s a relief. Well done mods, I expect.

      • frankywiggles

        A surrogate for learning, very true. Also for any positive ideals and actions.

    • glenn_uk

      What beats me, Frankywiggles, is why self-proclaimed Marxists, socialists and so on would want to jump on board with this far-right death cult. When someone denounces the “MSM” and goes on to say FOX News is their source of brave truth-telling, where are you left to go? One would have to be – with all due respect – pretty stupid or telling falsehoods.

      Take that latest story, with the Republican Senator Jensen. He makes his highly dubious claims, full of insinuation and giving a nod and wink to the implication that C-19 figures are being inflated. He gets on with Laura Ingraham at FOX News. She obviously took a break from vacillating between C-19 denial, and promoting Chloroquine as a magical cure for same. Then this goes to Alex Jones. Then Q-Anon picks it up for their hard-right followers.

      All this is to promote the view that C-19 is being exaggerated, if not a complete fiction, to make the death cult leader himself – Trump – look bad.

      So why would anyone who is not a major Trump supporter, with all that implies, go on to promote the same themselves?

      • Clark

        I can’t remember seeing anything Marxist from N_. Just a load of conspiracy theory, some of it anti-Semitic. There are lots of anonymous accounts, and many of them are not what they seem. When they start propagandising with direct lies to promote a policy that will kill people, I strongly object. “Far right libertarian death cult”. Precisely.

        • glenn_uk

          You think N just pretends, in order to besmirch the name of Marxists? That’s a theory which has a lot of validity. I know Marxists, none of them promote the pro-Trump BS that N favours.

      • frankywiggles

        Glenn, you would have to search far and wide to find a socialist who wants low paid workers forced back to the coal face at the height of a pandemic. The entity to whom you refer is self-evidently not a Marxist in any conventional understanding of the word. Maybe a hardcore eugenicist misanthrope, certainly absolutely giddy with conspiracy fever.

        • Loony

          Shop workers are low paid. Do you know any socialists who advocate that all shops should be closed? If so then how do they suggest people source their food?

          Or maybe as socialists they would be quite happy to follow in the footsteps of past socialist leaders who have been happy enough to starve 10’s of millions of people to death. Naturally anyone resisting forced starvation must by definition be a hardcore eugenicist.

          • glenn_uk

            Apart from food shops, nearly all shops are shut.

            You’re making even less sense than usual these days. Lock-down getting to you?

          • Loony

            That is correct Glenn – nearly all shops apart from food shops are closed. That is why I specifically mentioned food shops.

            Someone claimed sympathy with low paid workers. I merely highlighted the hypocrisy of the comment – as clearly sympathy for low paid workers does not extend to the commenter actually paying any price at all for his moral posturing.

            It remains a complicated game.

          • glenn_uk

            You specifically mentioned food shops in the context of the notion “that all shops should be closed”, and went on to say that people wouldn’t be able to source food.

            Are you seriously trying to gaslight us, pretending that your comment just above doesn’t say what it says?

  • N_

    It’s obvious what the British rulers are up to, with their five-level “Covid-19 defcon system” and their line that they are about to place Britain on level 4, not level 5: they are planning to whack the level up to five when food runs short, which will be no later than September or October.

    Their aim is to prevent food riots, or at least to minimise their scale. You only have to do that in the early days, because people who aren’t eating rapidly lose energy. Call it “flattening the curve” if you like.

    Malthusianism = famine. You cannot get away from that. Vote Tory for famine. It’s the Tories’ big day. It shows them they’re right in their central religious belief: that the “general public” are a horde of germ-spreaders who don’t deserve food, who are getting what they deserve, who if they ever fight independently necessarily undermine what is right in society, the natural social order.

    The greens are likely to reappear too to egg the Tories on. “More, faster!”

    What a brilliant way to underline food riots: tell everyone that if they participate they will probably get the lergy; and tell those who are more passive that everybody who does participate is a lergy-spreader either out of stupidity (Independent, Guardian) or wickedness (Daily Mail, Sun).

    Those who suck up all the lies they’re being told about Covid-19 because some tosser has shown them a graph really do believe that the minority of us who don’t buy the lies are as thick as two short planks.

  • Clark


    Also Loony, John Goss, Tony M, and others whom it may concern:

    What evidence would convince you that there genuinely is a high mortality, fast spreading global pandemic in progress? What sources would you accept?

    And if your answer to this is “none”, would youmind pointing that out in BOLD CAPITALS at the beginning of each of your comments?

    • glenn_uk

      Of course there is no acceptable source to show this pandemic is genuine. Because they know it isn’t genuine. Therefore, any proof that it is genuine must be fake! QED.

      (And if you needed more proof that it’s fake, it said so on FOX News. And that’s definitely not MSM, that nice Mr. Murdoch said so!) /facepalm/

  • N_

    The two weeks of house arrest for anybody who enters Britain (doubtless not including Filipina maids employed by Saudi princes and certain other categories) serves not only to deter visitors but also – and perhaps more importantly – to deter British people and other permanent residents from going abroad for a while. This might not matter much right at this very moment, but when it’s obvious even to Facebook users that the famine holocaust has started, how many residents will try to leave knowing that if they come back they’ll be house-imprisoned for a fortnight, with their smartphone (assuming the internet is still on) acting as a beacon proclaiming a Potential Germspreader Alert?

    Anybody with any sense and the means to live abroad should get out of this sh*thouse with Thomas Malthus as its deity and Francis Galton as its patron saint as fast as they can.

    • Clark

      Yes, the evidence for indiscriminate travel quarantine is not great but imposing it panders to the racism promoted by the right wing press for decades.

      But make sure you blame some academics N_; they’re always the real bad guys, just like Ferguson’s to blame for everything now.

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