Origins of SARS cov2


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  • This topic has 133 replies, 1 voice, and was last updated 1 year ago by Clark.
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  • #75677 Reply
    michael norton

      Just reading this gives me the shakes
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marburg_virus_disease

      So it seems that monkeys or bats are routinely chopped up to get at viruses.

      It is becoming a little, little, more clear that very dangerous diseases strike in or near laboratories that are looking at these vectors. Is there world oversight?

      #75682 Reply
      michael norton

        Danish scientist Peter Ben Embarek, who led the international mission to Wuhan, said a lab employee infected while taking samples in the field falls under one of the likely hypotheses as to how the virus passed from bats to humans.

        He told the Danish public channel TV2 that the suspect bats were not from the Wuhan region and the only people likely to have approached them were workers from the Wuhan labs.

        Ben Embarek previously acknowledged in an interview with Science magazine that “politics was always in the room with us” during the Wuhan trip, which was mired in delays after China initially stalled approval for the international researchers’ entry.
        https://www.france24.com/en/asia-pacific/20210813-china-rejects-who-call-for-renewed-probe-into-origins-of-covid-19

        So, it does not have to have been a leak from the Level Four Lab in Wuhan.
        It could though, be persons contracted to collect bats in Bat Caves in a different part of China, who became the zero people?

        #75688 Reply
        ET

          “Just reading this gives me the shakes”

          Just to give you some more shakes there a whole host of such Viral hemorrhagic fever diseases. God forbid one of these ever gets a chance to get going. It almost happened with Ebola. Gives perspective on the world’s tragically inadequate response to Sars-Cov-2. Compared to these diseases covid is relatively benign.

          #75698 Reply
          michael norton

            Most marburgvirus infections were repeatedly associated with people visiting natural caves or mines.
            Bats are good spreaders of diseases. I think they are one of the few mammals that inhabit all continents except Antarctica. I think bats co-evolved with the Angiosperm rain forests. They are riddled with viruses.
            Bats are almost certainly fine, if you leave them alone.
            Some years ago a registered bat handler, in Kent I think, caught rabies from a bat and he died.

            #75703 Reply
            ET

              I worked in Queensland many moons ago for a while. Every evening in the summer time hundreds of thousands of fruit bats would emerge towards sunset and take to the skies. It was quite a spectacular sight. Still is from this video.
              Also the cane toads were just as numerous after heavy rains.

              #75791 Reply
              Clark

                Michael Norton, August 13 at 09:17 (above):

                “It is becoming a little, little, more clear that very dangerous diseases strike in or near laboratories that are looking at these vectors. Is there world oversight?”

                No, not that I’ve heard of:

                https://thebulletin.org/2021/06/how-to-make-biomedical-research-and-biosafety-labs-less-dangerous-and-more-ethical-post-covid-19/

                There is a weakness in this biosafety regime, however. There are no surveillance systems of laboratory-acquired infections and, if they occur, there are no mandatory mechanisms in place to notify state and local health officials about those infections. …laboratory-acquired infections fall through the cracks in government surveillance systems. …without good surveillance systems at regional, national, and international levels, it’s difficult to know the extent or severity of the problem until a disaster strikes. […] Until COVID-19, society had largely abdicated research funding decision-making to the scientific community with little, if any, oversight or input by humanists, ethicists, or public health professionals who might not share the scientists’ views.

                At the international level, the World Health Organization should work with the Biological Weapons Convention (BWC) Implementation Support Unit to create a laboratory-acquired infection surveillance system based on data collected and reported at the national levels. Biomedical research is inherently dual use; it can provide society great benefits, but it can also be used for ill. The collaboration between WHO and the BWC would send the message that the international community takes these issues seriously.

                #76161 Reply
                michael norton

                  A disinformation campaign claiming that the Covid-19 virus originated from an American military base in Maryland has gained popularity in China ahead of the release of a U.S.A. intelligence report on the virus origins.
                  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-58273322
                  Uncle Joe ordered a 90-day probe into whether the Covid-19 virus came from a lab accident or emerged from human contact with an infected animal.
                  But now as the report is due to be released, China has gone on the offensive. In the past few weeks, Chinese sources have been amplifying a baseless claim that Covid-19 was made in the U.S.A.

                  China have not covered themselves in glory. They are keeping secrets, secret.

                  Even if the Chinese Regime have been so brilliant at ruthlessly suppressing the virus in China, they must of heard their is a pandemic going on in most of the World?
                  You would have thought they would want to help the World find out the origin?

                  #76379 Reply
                  michael norton

                    In a new report published in the journal Nature, WHO scientists have warned their inquiries have “stalled” – and the damage caused by further delays could be irreparable.

                    As so many, many people have been killed or badly damaged by the virus, it would seem important to do the utmost to discover where this all started?

                    #76390 Reply
                    ET

                      How COVID-19’s origins were obscured, by the East and the West.
                      Worth a read, the article charts the timeline and individuals involved in the evolution from the lab leak theory being a nuts conspiracy theory to where we are now. In my opinion, we will never get the full facts about its origin. Whether it was a lab leak or natural evolution it is still with us either way and needs dealing with.

                      #77202 Reply
                      Clark

                        ET, thanks for that link. From a link within it to a Twitter thread by Alexandros Marinos, it seems that certain investors were tipped off early on:

                        https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1404374212907700228.html

                        One more piece: Farrar had a call with a group of money managers Jan 31: “In the 20 or 30 years I’ve been involved in emerging infections, I’ve never seen anything that has been as fast or as rapidly moving and dynamic as this”

                        The speed of spread is really the defining feature of SARS-CoV-2, more so than its fatality rate.

                        Globally, covid deaths have been and continue to be under-counted by around a factor of three:

                        https://www.economist.com/briefing/2021/05/15/there-have-been-7m-13m-excess-deaths-worldwide-during-the-pandemic

                        #78788 Reply
                        michael norton

                          Very shocking, if true.

                          “Orders for PCR test kits spiked in the Chinese province where Covid originated, seven months before the first case was reported, it has emerged, providing fresh evidence that the disease was circulating for months before Beijing reported it to the world.

                          The Wuhan Institute of Virology, the Wuhan University of Science and Technology and the Hubei CDC were all among institutions placing unusually-large orders for PCR test kits starting in May 2019, according to new research.

                          It is just the latest piece of evidence that suggests the Chinese Communist Party covered up the initial spread of Covid – helping the virus to spread across the world and become a debilitating pandemic.”

                          https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10060265/China-Covid-PCR-test-kit-orders-doubled-Hubei-case.html

                          #78789 Reply
                          michael norton

                            “The Donald Trump administration’s claims about a Wuhan lab leak were treated as a conspiracy theory by hostile US media, but their attitude changed after Uncle Joe Biden took office?”

                            The Chinese Communist Party think Australia and America are trying to make trouble for China by suggesting covid started months before China told the World.
                            https://www.rt.com/news/536612-china-pcr-testing-equipment/

                            I think it is strange how China seemed to be so prepared for covid, when almost all other countries did not see it coming.

                            #78793 Reply
                            Pigeon English

                              MN

                              I find it strange how UK was unprepared for Covid with 3 months notice.
                              I would find it strange if China were unprepared for Sars or war in general.
                              If you look at the graphs there were other years were China nearly doubled demand for tests.
                              Both graphs are rising more or less since 2012. Did they know already in 2012?
                              I find it strange that UK sold PPE reserves.

                              #78805 Reply
                              ET

                                There is also the people behind the organisation who published this data analysis with extensive links to army intel or arms companies.

                                #78804 Reply
                                Clark

                                  PCR testing has existed for years, but the specific PCR test kit for SARS-CoV-2 wasn’t (and couldn’t have been) developed until SARS-CoV-2’s genome was sequenced, early in the pandemic. This is why there was a global shortage at the beginning of the pandemic, which China suffered from too.

                                  China was caught unawares by covid; that’s why it ripped through Wuhan, which then had to be locked down. Local authorities had tried to suppress doctors’ reports of the new illness, until the national government became aware and ordered them to reverse that policy. Immediately following the Chinese New Year celebrations when many residents travel long distances to visit relatives all across China, the central Chinese government imposed lockdowns in multiple cities and travel restrictions across multiple entire provinces – 750 million people were under travel restrictions, fully 10% of everyone in the world!

                                  I give no credence to this idea that China let covid spread before the Wuhan outbreak and covered it up. There is some evidence that some Wuhan Institute of Virology lab staff may have been hospitalised and isolated two or three months earlier, but if it was SARS-CoV-2 it must have been contained or nearly so. When China did lock down and impose travel restrictions, it was impossible to hide; nitrous oxide pollution from traffic and soot emissions from coal power stations dropped so much that it was noted by satellites. And the current extremely low levels of covid-19 could not have been achieved, not unless there had been a far more widespread lockdown as stringent as Wuhan’s, and if that had happened we couldn’t have missed it because Chinese manufacturing would have suddenly ceased, like it did at the start of 2020.

                                  This looks like just the usual political China-bashing.

                                  #78806 Reply
                                  Clark

                                    Then there’s my friend’s friend who lives and works in China. He started e-mailing my friend about covid in January 2020, including some pretty alarming police training videos of how they would deal with uncooperative people suspected of being infected. Not a peep about covid from him before then.

                                    #84894 Reply
                                    Death by 1000 cuts

                                      [ Mod: As advised to you previously, the ‘Name’ field is for a name, not a slogan.

                                      You have also been advised to retain a singular identity and stop adopting new pseudonyms such as ‘No to Mass Murder’, ‘Carrots’, ‘Onions’ and ‘Habbak’. Kindly respect the advice and repost under a conventional name, preferably one you have used previously. ]


                                      [ — snip — ]

                                      #88064 Reply
                                      Kate

                                        — SNIP —

                                        [ Mod: This comment did not concern the origins of SAR-CoV-2, but raised another substantial issue that warrants a topic of its own. It has been moved to “Concerns about the contents of the covid vaccines“. ]

                                        #88074 Reply
                                        mods-cm-org

                                          Dear Kate,

                                          Thank you very much for reposting your comment about the covid vaccines in the discussion forum (and for correctly raising your enquiry about it in the Blog Support forum). However, your comment about the vaccines doesn’t directly concern the origins of SARS-CoV-2, so it shouldn’t really be posted on this thread. It warrants a separate topic in its own right, which would keep the discussion focused and easy to reference via its own URL.

                                          I have taken the liberty of reposting it for you, under the title “Concerns about the contents of the covid vaccines”. (This can be changed later, if you like.)

                                          It’s likely that other commenters will be keen to engage you in discussion about this issue, so keep monitoring the thread for replies.

                                          Thank you.

                                          #88540 Reply
                                          Oscar

                                            A book: States of emergency: Keeping the global population in check, by Kees van der Pijl.


                                            [ Mod: As noted before, this is a discussion forum, not a posterboard for favourite links. Please make some kind of argument, with reference to relevant content in the linked resource.

                                            Thank you. ]

                                            #88551 Reply
                                            Clark

                                              Oscar, I’ve encountered Kees van der Pijl before. I think he was once a serious political scientist, but got sucked into conspiracy theory (by which I mean the misleading mode of thought) regarding the 9/11 attacks, and started believing a load of confusing nonsense. It seems he has not recovered his senses; from the book review:

                                              “Van der Pijl cogently shows how the Covid crisis fear campaign’s official account is untrue; how it is a political and not a medical emergency…”

                                              …yet this notion is easily dispelled by the sudden surges in the overall death rate. To support his idea he will have to have accepted many other things that are clearly false, such as the supposedly high false positive rate of PCR testing, and that countless thousands of doctors and other medical staff suddenly invented, or mass hallucinated, or lied about a new set of clinical symptoms.

                                              Before vaccines were deployed, covid was definitely a public health emergency. I myself was told of over twenty covid deaths in a single month, by an ex girlfriend working in the kitchen of a care home; am I to start speculating that the staff killed them off somehow? Another friend of mine who was a nurse told me of the burnout among her colleagues.

                                              None of this is to say that covid wasn’t a political emergency too, nor that the powerful didn’t use it for their own objectives – indeed, we know that they did; for instance the Johnson government gave a £37 billion contract to a friend of Johnson’s with zero relevant experience, for a test-and-trace programme that never stood a chance of working. Liam Fox (who Craig exposed years ago) attempted to use test-and-trace as cover to install surveillance software on millions of smartphones. There’s a quote in my comment of September 12, 2021 at 11:43 above, as to how the financiers were able to capitalise upon the emergency.
                                              – – – – – – –

                                              I feel very sorry for David Icke, who promotes a lot of this stuff. He was a hippy, a nice bloke, and not in the least a tough political animal. He was joint leader of the Green Party when it became a threat to the established order, so the good old BBC propaganda machine humiliated him on prime time TV in front of millions of people, by having Terry Wogan ask him deeply personal questions about his faith, and then ridicule him for his openness. His reputation was destroyed and his son was severely bullied; very few people are strong enough to survive such powerful institutionalised abuse. He became rather bitter, as you can see in some of the videos of his talks. I’m really not surprised he turned a bit paranoid.

                                              #88561 Reply
                                              Oscar

                                                This thread is about the origin of the pandemic.

                                                Debate about the origin of the virus or the policy measures taken is often labelled “denialist”.

                                                Just as the term “conspiracist” is often used pejoratively to discredit criticism of the Establishment, the term “COVID denier” has become widespread as a way of dismissing any debate or criticism of the before, during and aftermath of the health crisis.

                                                Neither I nor Van der Pijl have denied the existence of the bug. Nor have Wikispooks (or at least not in all their topics on the subject).

                                                Be that as it may, these forums have given the necessary clues to get at least part of the truth. But for that, we first have to clear our psychological and linguistic barriers…

                                                #88564 Reply
                                                Oscar

                                                  I must add another criticism, and that is how quickly we change people’s status when what they claim (and often prove) does not fit our mental schemas.

                                                  We have Drs Mullis and Malone (whose work has been very prominent during the pandemic, paradoxically, but we could cite hundreds of scientific professionals around the world. Until they question things, they are cool; if they do, they have gone mad – progressively or suddenly.

                                                  The same must be true of Van der Pijl, William I. Robinson and many other sociologists… they’re brilliant until they don’t go to the root, then, I suppose it’s an age thing, they start to crack up.

                                                  Anyway…. human beings are wonderful, though.

                                                  #88565 Reply
                                                  Oscar

                                                    With all this I do not intend to defend anything with ad verecundiam arguments, just as I would not dispense with everything David Icke says with an ad hominem argument related to illuminati lizards.

                                                    I am simply pointing out the double standards and the tremendous hypocrisy that reigns in society, and how easy it is to make something look like something it is (e.g. confusing questioning the origin, policy measures and consequences of the Covidian event with denialism of the virus, deaths and health care overcrowding.

                                                    #88571 Reply
                                                    Clark

                                                      Oscar, when arguments polarise, typically both poles are wrong. The poles require each other, wrongness supports wrongness. “Conspiracist” is indeed used pejoratively to discredit criticism of the Establishment, but the technique couldn’t work unless conspiracism really existed, and got stuff so badly wrong. Polarisation by its nature is divisive.

                                                      Here’s some ridicule of the establishment that resonates with me – Karl_Was_Right on Twitter. Here’s some similar criticism, but rationally argued rather than done by overdubbing – the ‘Two Davids’ at Media Lens. These two links illustrate another type of division; nationalism. Power has to divide the people in order to rule.

                                                      The conspiracists are dissenters, but their dissent becomes useful to power for herding the majority around power’s chosen perspective. British monarchy doesn’t make North Korea’s rulers good, nor vice versa. That pharmaceutical company Merck covered up the deaths caused by their drug Vioxx doesn’t mean that the MMR vaccination causes autism.

                                                      To overcome power effectively, we have to see it clearly. This is one of the reasons I try to expose conspiracism; we need those dissenters’ dissent, but aimed at the real targets.

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