Orange Blackout

by craig on August 11, 2014 9:03 pm in Uncategorized

My mole at Pacific Quay tells me that there will be no BBC coverage of the Orange Order No campaign march in Edinburgh on 13 September. It has been decided that this would “present an unfairly negative image of the No campaign.” I find that fascinating, as the BBC has certainly never shirked from portraying an unfairly negative image of the Yes campaign. Apparently BBC Scotland have taken the decision “in consultation with” their bosses in England.

The proposed Orange for No march appears plainly to be in contravention of the Public Order Act 1936. This act makes it illegal to wear a uniform to promote a political cause:

Section 1 (i)

Subject as hereinafter provided, any person
who in any public place or at any public meeting wears
uniform signifying his association with any political
organisation or with, the promotion of any political
object shall be guilty of an offence :

For the Orange order to march through Edinburgh in uniform to support the No referendum campaign seems to me as blatant a contravention of the Act as can possibly be imagined. The Act remains in force, this section has not been modified by subsequent legislation and it does apply to Scotland. The specific provisions for Scotland at Section 8 relate solely to the mechanics of administration.

Orange marches in Scotland are not normally prosecuted on the (frankly weak) grounds that they are a cultural not a political manifestation. But that cannot be said of the September 13 March which is being undertaken by the Grand Orange Lodge as a registered participant in the referendum campaign. If they march in uniform they are very plainly indeed in breach of the Public Order Act.

The Act is not a dead letter from the 1930s. It was used to arrest and convict Irish Republicans in the 1980s demonstrating at Speakers’ Corner in Hyde Park for wearing black berets. Its breach of the peace provisions were used against pickets in the miners’ strike.

There is therefore a key question here – is the law applied impartially, or is it only applied against political demonstrations opposed to the Westminster Establishment? Is the law ignored for political demonstrations in support of the Westminster Establishment?

It is not a case of whether you support the existence of this particular law. It is an essential attribute of a democracy that where the law exists it is applied impartially. That appears not to be the case in Scotland.

Tweet this post

131 Comments

  1. Should we YES people stand on the sidelines, biscuit tins and drum sticks in hand, or completely ignore it? I
    I suggest ignoring it and for anyone wishing for and working towards a fairer, more forward looking positive country, just to act as if it is not happening, march, what march?

    I wonder how the Irish republicans were treated in the 1930′s when they were arrested, probably not very nicely.
    The law works for the rich and establishment, and against those who have a conscience. That has to stop, world over, injustice is an ugly human trait, very ugly.

  2. BrianFujisan

    11 Aug, 2014 - 9:28 pm

    Craig

    Great Legal info there i had just no ideal all…Thank you

    its actually illegal for this march to go ahead ( if in uniform) Wow

  3. What you’ve outlined is something any hack would surely see as a potential news story worth covering. Would have, in my day.

  4. Hi Hetty

    The Irish Republicans were actually arrested in Hyde Park for wearing berets in the 1980s! should have been clearer.

  5. So, when the Police units prance about at Gay-Pride demonstrations, in the hope of winning some gong regarding how gay-friendly they are, we should arrest them!

  6. There is of course a let-out clause:-

    “Provided that, if the chief officer of police is satisfied
    that the wearing of any such uniform as aforesaid on
    any ceremonial, anniversary, or other special occasion
    will not be likely to involve risk of public disorder, he
    may, with the consent of a Secretary of State, by order
    permit the wearing of such uniform on that occasion
    either absolutely or subject to such conditions as may be
    specified in the order.”

    As the march is taking place in Edinburgh I would assume that the decision to allow it rests with the Scottish government or the local authority and not with Westminster. Do you not think that the arrest or banning of a “No” demonstration by an administration closely associated with the “Yes” camp might seriously backfire?

  7. ” So, when the Police units prance about at Gay-Pride demonstrations, in the hope of winning some gong regarding how gay-friendly they are, we should arrest them! ”

    Them and the Girl Guides who have protested against sexism in the media and the school children who attended demonstrations against university fees. Lock ‘em all up! It’s democracy!

  8. “its actually illegal for this march to go ahead ( if in uniform) Wow”

    Well no. Craig is just being as silly as the stupid farts in the Orange Order.

    I don’t think anything they would be wearing would be considered a uniform for the purposes of the act. I don’t think the No Campaign would be considered a political organisation in the sense the act intends and I think the Orange Order will have had a word with the Chief Constable and told them what they intend to do, if it was illegal he would have been obliged to tell them it was illegal and if he tells them it’s OK for them to go ahead then it isn’t illegal anyway.

    Don’t see any point in giving the sectarian bastards any publicity, the BBC got it right, ignore them. Why the hell Craig wants them on the front page of every newspaper I can’t imagine.

  9. LOL, Kempe. Surely not a “let out” clause!

    In this case, though, I’d have thought there would have been a risk of disorder. Indeed, it might be suggested that some might see it in their interest to cause disorder. I’m sure the police presence would be considerable, just in case. Wouldn’t be sensible for the impartial and good taste BBC to broadcast any of that…

  10. Fred

    Sometimes you are a total arse. Look at this picture of an Orange Order march in Glasgow

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/750-officers-to-be-deployed-to-safeguard-major-orange-parade.21478027

    “I don’t think anything they would be wearing would be considered a uniform for the purposes of the act.”

    Remember seven Irishman were arrested for wearing just a black beret. As for the argument that the No campaign is not a political organisation, I fear you have taken leave of your senses. have you ever seen an Orange march? Twit.

    Kempe

    An exemption has to be granted in advance by the chief police officer – not the government – on the grounds that there is no threat to public order. Plainly there is.

  11. Craig, you’re a wanker.

  12. Right Fred,

    so this is not a uniform ?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1420000/images/_1422212_orange300.jpg

    And the Orange order, which has registered with the Electoral Commission as a campaigning under the No banner, is not political !

    Isn’t it also odd that last year BBC Northern Ireland covered the events of the 12th in a live tv programme of the parades in Belfast along with celebratory interviews from the Orange community extolling the virtues of their order. Think Huw Edwards covering the wedding of William and Kate and you’ll get the idea of the celebratory nature of the broadcast.

    Kempe – that provision you mention is speculative. Orange order marches in Edinburgh are very rare, averaging 4 or 5 per year and never anywhere near the city centre nor in any great numbers. Compared to Glasgow which allows some 300 marches per year. That alone provides a good case for concerns over public disorder I would have thought, especially with the referendum vote taking place only a few days later.

  13. There are two stories here. First, the planned march in uniform in apparent contravention of the Act. Second, the apparent decision of the BBC not to cover it.

    On the first point, it would appear that the Orange Order will be in breach. If Kempe’s point is valid, and I have no reason to doubt it, this begs the obvious question “Has (or will) the Secretary of State give(n) consent to the relevant chief officer of police?” As the legislation pre-dates devolution we have to translate the officials specified in the Act into today’s equivalents. So presumably “chief officer of police” means the Chief Constable of Police Scotland. A “Secretary of State” I think in this context means the Secretary of State for Scotland – Alistair Carmichael. I am not a constitutional expert, but I do not think that Scottish Ministers (of the Scottish Government) can be described as Secretaries of State. (Perhaps if anyone knows more than me about this they could enlighten us.)

    So we expect that unless the Chief Constable has, with the agreement of Alistair Carmichael, consented to this parade, then it will be prevented. We await developments with great interest.

    On the second point, the BBC’s apparent decision not to report the parade, this is completely disgraceful and illustrates what many of us have been saying for months – the BBC has been acting as a branch of the Better Together No Thanks campaign. It is the job of the BBC to impartially report the facts. If the facts show either side in a poor light – then so be it. If a bunch of thugs, who happened to support a Yes vote, planned an illegal demonstration, would the BBC report it? Of course they would. And I’m sure they would give it all a good spin as well. And the irony is that the BBC is not slow to report media manipulation and bias in Putin’s Russia. Ha!

    Of course, maybe Craig’s mole is wrong. Or maybe the BBC will change their mind. Who knows? Either way, after independence, they will be cleared out.

  14. Yes Craig, the Irish Republicans had a military wing who blew people up and berets are uniform soldiers wear in action not ceremonial uniform dick heads dress up in to go marching up and down.

    Some of us don’t want sectarian tensions to reach the same levels in Scotland as they did in Ireland. Some of us don’t want any sectarian tensions at all.

    So let the stupid farts prance around in their silly uniforms and ignore them. Nationalist Republicans picking fights with them will just lead to more fights, more anger, more resentment and more hatred.

  15. This isn’t a ceremonial, anniversary or other special occasion, and given events in Glasgow a few weeks ago at the last march, when a teenage girl was ‘bottled’ there is more than a risk of public disorder, it is a certainty, from urinating in the street to drink-fuelled fights amongst themselves and there will be few Scots amongst the marchers, though the ferries from Northern Ireland will be doing a roaring trade. These marches having no relevance whatever shouldn’t be tolerated anywhere in Scotland at any time. Sadly though they are one of the bitter legacies of union, which the unionists have seen fit to sustain through the years. If they wish they could march round a remote field all day to their heart’s content, but choose instead to paralyse towns in lowland Scotland, and are often provocatively routed, simply because they can and do get away with it. Anti-Irish and anti-Catholic bigotry did not arise spontaneously but in its present form was imported from Northern Ireland and carefully stoked and tended, exploiting useful idiots, to flare up as and when the British state wished to sow some divide and rule discord. Such as now when the unloved union is already a goner. It little known fact that membership in the Communist Party in Scotland at one time was predominated by and thought to be limited only to orange order members. The saying was red on the outside and orange within. That controlled-opposition thing again. I would say ignore them and it, these people are just too ridiculous to merit even amused contempt, throwback dinosaurs with a drum making some noise, they’d be just as happy quietly at home with some colouring-in books and fat crayons.

  16. IRA in Hyde park were enacting French onion sellers and got lifted, but here we have the long line of the orange Sashes, the stupid bowlers (always seem to be two sizes small) boozed up Orange men marching to the beat of the drums of menacingly scary tattooed rabble, scaring the dickens out of all and sundry, oh well that is not a uniform and it is only bit of lads letting off a few goose steps!

    Orange men are as good a scum as the zionist scum and they are as welcome in any decent society as any fart in the lift. In fact if they are in the no campaign the Scots should all watch them marching on the telly and the fisticuffs that invariably follows any such marches, should be put on the telly too.

  17. “so this is not a uniform ?”

    Well no, that is suits and ties and bowler hats.

    Uniforms look like this:

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=british+soldier+uniform&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=9z3pU4r_KOfb7Ab5_4CIAg&ved=0CCEQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=672

  18. Fred, I can hardly believe you live in Scotland as you allege, if you think they are just like a bunch of boy scouts and have no involvement in the violence in Northern Ireland. This is an organization that is proud to carry the banner of the Ku Klux Klan among other things. Stop posting complete garbage troll.

  19. LOL. The law doesn’t say “Military Uniform” though, Fred.

  20. World according to Fred,

    Evidently bowler hats, Orange sashes, and white gloves are everyday apparel worn by eccentric bunch of chums playing …….. a kind of ….. fancy dress game!

    Although silly google is out of step with Fred

    Best drop a line to google and put them right Fred.

  21. Tony M

    At the demonstration in Birmingham against Moazzam Begg being locked up, some of the idiot socialist workers twisted the chants to ‘Racist police’. Moazzem Begg was arrested because of his exposure of UK rendition in Syria.

    After that I conclude that these idioiks were neither Socialist, nor Workers, nor anti-rendition, but just sent there to confuse the issues and let the UK government off the hook.

    The War on Terror and the current War by Terror, wherever that will lead us to Uzbekistan or the back streets of Birmingham, are both Wars against the true religion of Islam. Absolutely nothing to do with race.

  22. If Fred does not object, I would say that I understand he is a very decent bloke, an Englishman moved to Scotland and living a simple crofting life, well-integrated and respected in his local community. His unionism seems to be founded in an idea that an independent Scotland will cease to welcome people like him, or become otherwise unpleasantly nationalistic – I think he is very wrong, but he is entitled to his view.

    I suspect he has never seen an Orange march. If you haven’t it is difficult to explain how very nasty and threatening they are.

  23. independent Scotland will cease to welcome people like him, or become otherwise unpleasantly nationalistic

    I have always thought that Scottish Nationalism is a backlash against the oppression that union has wrought upon the Scots. Given their independence, I hazard a guess that they would be far more welcoming of foreigners than they currently are. I don’t know if I am being sentimental, but that is the vibes I get from various Scots I have come across.

  24. @Kathy

    Yes I do live in Scotland, in the part of Scotland I live we don’t have any sectarian hatred like you have.

  25. No Craig, I haven’t seen an Orange march and I don’t want to. We don’t have them in the part of Scotland I live we have more sense.

    No reason why they shouldn’t not have them in the other parts of Scotland as well if people just learnt how to get on with each other instead of bitching all the time.

  26. Reposted as comment vanished after successfully posting, what’s with that?

    I think the rationale of the security services who must have controlled the orange order might have been that by having orange order members take over the nascent Communist Party, no-one would join the Communists for fear of being tainted by association with the orange order. We are talking though of an era just before during and after ww1. But gives an example of how this organisation was and is used for somewhat dubious purposes.

  27. After independence, will I be able to get Scottish national radio here in the U.S.?

  28. To see an Orange march, you need only watch the movie Hidden Agenda. Excellent movie, by the way.

  29. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    11 Aug, 2014 - 11:49 pm

    No reason why they shouldn’t not have them in the other parts of Scotland as well if people just learnt how to get on with each other instead of bitching all the time.

    That’s a big If, Fred. Divers wouldn’t need big clumsy air tanks if they just learnt how to breathe water….

  30. “IRA in Hyde park were enacting French onion sellers and got lifted, ”

    Don’t be fucking stupid. Black berets and sun glasses were the recognised uniform of the IRA. The protests were not peaceful among other things live ammunition was thrown at the police and just a few years later the IRA planted a bomb in the same place, Hyde Park, which killed 11 people.

  31. Fred

    Whereas the Orange Order lot were completely peaceful and never killed anyone? Oh wake up, for goodness sake.

  32. Does anyone Scottish believe that a march by this organisation will make much difference to the outcome of the vote? Honestly?

    It may persuade some soft no’s to vote yes to spite them. Scottish society has moved on in leaps and bounds in the past 50 years. There are few people outside of that particular organisation who have any time for it. I suggest you just ignore them. In Ireland they might matter, but not any longer here. May be important as a boost to the retailers of liquor in the Capital that day, and to some coach hirers, but otherwise? Nothing to see here….

  33. One of the reasons that I will be voting Yes is that I want to get away from the tribalism that is represented not only by the Orange Order, but by the British State. We have seen it all this week with the celebrations of the START of WW1. “We must have been in the right. How do we know? Well we are British. No further discussion needed.” Well I don’t agree – I do not subscribe to that sort of prejudiced nonsense. It is as offensive to me as any other type of prejudice – racism, xenophobia, sexism – they are all the same. The prejudice of the Orange Order is based on religion – every bit as bad as the others.

    The Scotland that I want to live in will treat all who live here equally. The only condition is that you want to contribute to society. I don’t care about your ethnicity, your sexual orientation, your religion or any other belief system you might have. I expect you to be equally tolerant of others.

    The right to march is one which I respect, but not if its primary purpose is to intimidate others. That is what the Orange Order is all about. They put a gloss of respectability on their activities but their purpose is to put others down. That is not a part of the Scotland that I want to live in.

    I want the law to be observed, both by individuals and institutions. So I want the police to enforce the law referred to in this article. I want the BBC to observe the terms of its licence to broadcast. I want the individuals who are planning to march on 13 September to not only observe the law, but to treat their fellow citizens with respect.

    If we vote No, I fear that these aspirations will remain just that – aspirations. If we vote Yes, we will have taken the first step towards creating a more civilised country. I want to be proud of my country, not for its military achievements, but because it is egalitarian, compassionate, prosperous and fair.

  34. Obviously only cold blood murders wore such a uniform

    Fred go wash you keyboard and and then find a penance for being so foul mouthed and a bad tempered loser.

    For your answer refer to Craig’s eloquent retort.

    BTW Fred see this “peaceful” sporting a uvf armband and his leather bullet pouch, surely he uses it to store his chocolate sank bars.

  35. “Whereas the Orange Order lot were completely peaceful and never killed anyone? Oh wake up, for goodness sake.”

    I have no doubt units associated with them have and I have no doubt if a load of the put on symbols of the UVF and went marching through Edinburgh attacking the police they would get themselves arrested.

    However that is not what they are planning to do on Saturday.

    How can you say things like “I deplore racism with every part of my being, all racism.” in one entry then be doing your best to promote sectarian hatred in another? I’m not for the Orange order I can’t stand them. I’m just against anybody who incites sectarian unrest.

    You wake up.

  36. “BTW Fred see this “peaceful” sporting a uvf armband and his leather bullet pouch, surely he uses it to store his chocolate sank bars.”

    Yes, disgusting, people like that are scum.

    Unfortunately it isn’t illegal, the act doesn’t apply to Northern Ireland.

  37. GutterTheQuantifier

    12 Aug, 2014 - 12:27 am

    Interesting that Scottish separatists here are so disparaging about their cousins in Northern Ireland.

    If you want to carve everything up according to whether or not it is historically and geographically “Scottish”, then I don’t see how you can ignore the fact that Northern Ireland is a Scottish colony, not an English or a Welsh one.

    Historically, geographically and culturally, it would make no sense at all for the land of the “Ulster Scots” to be attached to England and/or Wales following the dismemberment of the UK.

    If an independent Scotland is going to take sole possession of huge chunks of Britain’s natural resources on the grounds of history and geography, then on the same grounds you must also take sole responsibility for your troublesome colony in the north of Ireland.

  38. I’m sure I read that they are not allowed to have the band, they are the one’s that wear a band like uniform and they are separate from the lodge they are hired , also the band can have different religions in it , witch contradicts the whole thing and most of them are not even members of the lodge or go to church and thats the whole point

  39. “One of the reasons that I will be voting Yes is that I want to get away from the tribalism that is represented not only by the Orange Order, but by the British State.”

    And Nationalists.

    Nationalism is tribalism as well.

    How about just getting away from all “isms”?

  40. GutterTheQuantifier

    The term Ulster Scots is a misnomer, huge numbers of settlers came from the Northumberland coast as far south as Durham and many from Carlisle/Cumbria, there were even a significant number of Irish from far southern Ireland who settled in the North-West of England originally and then went back to Ireland, increased in number, with the colonists sent. Some were sent, exiled as a judicial punishment, rather like convicts sent to Australia.

    I don’t wish to dwell on this and have no entitlement to an explanation, but my 11:31 comment, which was for a time there, between Craig’s 11:25 and Fedup’s 11:34 and then wasn’t there any more, what happened to it, did others see it?

  41. Nepotism is wonderful, so long as you are part of the family….

  42. One thing you can say about the deep-fried Orange Order though..

    They’re rarely over-burdened by their intelligence and perspicacity.

  43. Tony M,

    Sometimes i think the spam filter here catches some posts depending on keywords.

    I cant be certain but i think this occassionally causes posting problems.

    I do wish this blog would move to a format where edits etc are allowed.

    But it seems it is what it is.

  44. Ethel Cardew

    12 Aug, 2014 - 1:27 am

    Can you not stand by and make a citizens arrest? file complaints with the police take photgraphic or video evidence just cause enough of a rammy to make the crimpolen rooled up trooser leg brigade feel just that uncomfortable…Make the polis actually do their job

  45. Ethel Cardew,

    I thought the rolled up trooser brigade were the police??

    :.)

  46. I’ve noised up the Scottish Cabinet about this. You see, the Order can march in uniform under very specific circumstances. Firstly, they need to arrange a march in an area with a dolt for a chief police officer. The chief police officer needs to then believe (against all the publicly available evidence) that allowing the Order to march would not be “likely” to lead to “public disorder” and apply for permission from a Secretary of State. Should the Secretary of State grant permission, then a uniformed march by the order can subsequently take place legally. However, separate permission needs to be sought for each event.

    So far I’ve had no response to my questions about whether such consent has been sought from, or granted by, any member of the Scottish Cabinet.

  47. They’ve been used and abused over the years. Everyone is entitled to be proud of their family their roots and their background, though if that history is one of sowing division and assumed superiority then that is something they need to look at within themselves as individuals and find other, universal, just causes to embrace. I don’t accept the cop-out that one side is as bad as the other, protestantism in the west of Scotland has an oppressive element both in working-class competition for resources, jobs, housing etc. and it reaches at times disturbingly highly into the old establishment. I hope that in time religiously segregated schooling is eliminated in Scotland, apart from being inherently divisive the duplication of resources, facilities, buildings etc. has senseless extra costs. Of mixed Catholic-Protestant background, neither side at all in the least religious, but irreligious if not atheistic/agnostic, certainly never practising, I respect each side of that heritage, and have friends at one extreme and the other, who’ll always remain so. Any division that was there has been blurred over so many generations that classification on religious lines is near impossible, notions of purity went out with eugenics. I hope a party atmosphere prevails and they can find a respectable place, a new (hopefully quieter) less destructive role in Independent Scotland’s civic society.

  48. BrianFujisan

    12 Aug, 2014 - 1:53 am

    Slightly O.T

    Some Members of public were refused Entry to the stv indy debate…cos they were yes voters… -

    http://www.yesdunblane.com/blog/stv-salmond-darling-debate

  49. Jives it wasn’t in moderation, it was there between Craig’s and Fedup’s posts on a reloaded page, and then it wasn’t. It can’t be keywords, it was only three lines and I reposted it exactly as before, but with an extra two sentences on the end (about ww1) at 11:45, and it posted fine. However. Night.

  50. GutterTheQuantifier

    12 Aug, 2014 - 2:12 am

    Tony M:

    You surely aren’t arguing that Northern Ireland is an English colony?

    You say that “notions of purity went out with eugenics”, but you seem to be calling on just such notions when you argue that the Ulster Scots are misnamed because they have some English and Irish blood in them.

    The overwhelming majority of the settlers were Scottish, the people there today identify themselves as Ulster Scots, and they speak a dialect of the Scots language as recognised by the EU.

    And anyway, most lowland Scots have plenty of English and Irish (and other) ancestry, too. By your odd, racist logic, that means Glasgow and Edinburgh aren’t Scottish either.

    Finally, look at a map. Ulster is nowhere near England, and very close to Scotland. Much closer than the British North Sea oil fields.

    You wouldn’t be so keen to hand your cousins’ land to the English and Welsh if there was oil there, would you?

  51. Gutter the whatever. I’ve got no fucking idea what you are talking about. Get help man.

  52. GutterTheQuantifier

    12 Aug, 2014 - 2:38 am

    Tony M:
    Eh? I was responding to your unhinged historical revisionist comment of 12:43 am when you seemed to be arguing that Northern Ireland was colonised by England, not Scotland.

  53. douglas clark

    12 Aug, 2014 - 6:55 am

    Dear Fred,

    You say:

    “Yes I do live in Scotland, in the part of Scotland I live we don’t have any sectarian hatred like you have.”

    I hope that we can all be like that after independence. It is this hinging on to Imperial identities, or, even anti-imperial identities, that is our bane. The only way to get over it is to take complete responsibility for ourselves, well, at least, that’s my honest opinion.

  54. OMG!

    http://www.orangeorderscotland.com/

    Is the lady outside No 10 wearing a satellite receiving dish on her head? Some chunky people in the photo gallery. Perhaps too many of those Ulster fries consumed.3

    and

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Orange_Lodge_of_Scotland

  55. The law of 1936 says that if the chief of police is satisfied that the uniform in question will not risk public disorder, he may permit it. Presumably the chief of police in Edinburgh was so satisfied, while this was not the case with the Irish republican synpathisers in Hyde park, for (in my view) they would be unlikely to seek permission for such a thing.

    As for the BBC’s decision, it amounts to self-censorship that could adversely affect the organisation’s reputation as a source of reliable information. What if people in other countries started seeing the BBC simply as a propaganda arm of the government and assessing the BBC World Service in the same light? I’ll leave it to others to apportion blame.

  56. Much ado about nothing re the uniforms. The BBC passed the mark of being a left wing propagander tool 30 years ago. The bias they show makes the ancient Soviet Pravda a beacon of neutrality.

  57. Prop from Sky News

    Scottish Voters ‘Anxious About UK Break Away’
    Research suggests Scottish voters are nervous about leaving the UK, with women less inclined to support independence than men.
    http://news.sky.com/story/1317117/scottish-voters-anxious-about-uk-break-away

    and from Ms Wark on BBC 2 Newsnight last night. 35mins in

    ‘Scottish Independence wobbles.’
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04dqbfy

  58. nevermind, it will happen anyway

    12 Aug, 2014 - 8:58 am

    I always had the impression that NI was colonated by Norse, Vikings, Celts, Scots and Billy, a bit of a melee, so why these strange urges to invite Irish people/unionist troublemakers to swell their puny ranks in Edinburgh?

    Not one of these NI voters will have a say in the referendum, so why are they even get off the ferry when the resulting march just increases Scottish voters police receipts?
    Has the police and the BBC invited this rolled up trouser meeting?

    I’m not a Scotsman so forgive, but black berets are worn by others than the IRA and I’m sure that when the sun shinesthey will wear raybans.

  59. nevermind, it will happen anyway

    12 Aug, 2014 - 9:04 am

  60. Fred: Out of sync with reality and Scotland once again. The Orange order and their marches are very militaristic from their uniforms to their marching songs which commemorate battle and ” the sash their father wore ” which they wear as part of the uniform.
    They are very pro Unionist and have been used by politicians through the centuries to intimidate Catholic’s.Catholics were discriminated against all over Scotland and it was still happening during the 70′s.There are still bars in Glasgow that you wouldn’t be seen in,in green,
    An Orange Walk is quite a spectacle and something you wouldn’t forget as the drums and lyrics make their military point.They still use them in Northern Ireland to remind the Catholics of who is boss.There is nothing peaceful about them.
    They should not be permitted in this century and I have no idea why they think this might help the NO campaign in our Capital.You’ll have a few Hearts supporters nodding their heids,but thats all.

  61. DonnyDarko

    Exactly. As I said in an earlier comment, it is very had to explain just how aggressive and threatening an Orange march is to somebody who hasn’t experienced one.

    “I have no idea why they think this might help the NO campaign in our Capital.” They don’t think it will. They are convinced it is a walkover and this is all part of the unionist triumphalism.

  62. I didn’t see if anyone else has said this but I am led to believe that this has already been raised with the OO and permission was granted subject to them marching without uniforms. Getting around any problems that could have been raised against them. The ‘unfairly negative’ idea has already been put into practise with the non coverage of the Monsanto march, Occupy actions, Austerity protests etc. Complaints have been brushed aside and appeals allowed to time out.

  63. Gary

    Another commenter has also suggested that they agreed to march without uniforms. But I cannot find any source for that. I am sceptical.

  64. fred, 11 Aug, 11:41 pm

    “We don’t have [Orange marches] in the part of Scotland I live we have more sense

    But you told me that you often encounter another prejudice, just as strong, that affects you quite directly. So maybe the “we” you refer to doesn’t “have more sense”.

  65. Fred

    “Nationalism is tribalism as well.” No you are quite wrong about this. The “blood and soil” nationalism (which Darling infamously agreed was a valid description of the SNP) could be said to be tribalistic in its nature, but civic nationalism – the type of nationalism espoused by the SNP – is the very opposite. It is inclusinve in its nature not exclusive. Civic nationalism recognises the fact that we live in a place which is a nation and seeks to build within that nation a society which is non-discriminatory, egalitarian and tolerant.

    The Nationalism that I and most Yes voters support is welcoming to people of different ethnicity, tolerates a wide range of opinion and expects others to be tolerant as well. That is why the Orange Order will be tolerated in an independent Scotland even although many of us find it distasteful. But they will be expected to obey the law.

    S

  66. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    12 Aug, 2014 - 10:18 am

    Orange march routes invariably pass Catholic churches, and the tension tangibly increases when they do so. It’s nothing to do with religion, though. Just hatred, maintained assiduously for centuries.

  67. While on the subject of sectarianism and inherent racism thereof, and recollecting the “Trojan Horse” letter and operation of the same name (the emotive fake letter that departed Gove used as a pretext to shut down all the Islamic schools in Birmingham and get rid of the lot of the governors and those “sympathetic staff”) Then the new Ed. Sec. came along and held a consultation and decided that “British Values” are to be taught everywhere and in the absence of that the school will be shut-down and instead a new “independent” school will be put in its place. (so far so good only Muslims are getting kicked around and marginalised)

    However apparently British Values leave no room for “mother”, “father”, as well as other:

    requiring teachers to remove traditional and gender-specific terms such as husband, wife, mother and father from the curriculum.

    That is coming from the Christian Institute

    Christian charity threatens judicial review over Trojan horse plans.

    Plans for independent schools following row could lead to ban on words such as husband and wife, claims Christian Institute

    But hang on until certain other parties get involved in, then perhaps there will be a wholesale rethinking of the “British Values”, and we may even find matza to be our nation bread yet.

    Although strangely the Quilliam Foundation is bemused; what is all the fuss about?

    Ghaffar Hussain, managing director of the Quilliam Foundation, told the BBC Radio 4 Today programme: “I really don’t understand [Hart's] concerns at all to be honest.

    Clearly a well trained bunch of bubas, the hand maidens of one Tony Lynton Miranda Blair.

  68. The No campaign will happily take the votes of the orange order.

  69. I live in Perth, which is not exactly a place usually associated with the obnoxious bigots of the Orange Order and sectarianism, yet still we have to tolerate them strutting around our streets. I suggest that before commenting on Orange marches perhaps Fred should actually go and see one first hand?

  70. O/T Passerby but did you see this from the new member of the fascisti government?

    Nicky Morgan: toddlers must learn ‘British values’
    Education secretary allows local authorities to cut off funding to nurseries promoting ‘extremist views’ – including creationism
    http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/aug/08/nicky-morgan-toddler-must-be-taught-british-values

    Get the little ones marching in step whilst waving their little union flags. YCNMIU.

  71. Point 1: The BBC not covering it because it might harm the No campaign to be associated with such idiots… That seems typical of the bias the BBC has been displaying.

    Point 2: Of course pro-establishment protests are going to be allowed – laws are not there to be universally enforced, they’re there to be enforced for the benefit of the ruling class.
    Look at the way the powerful have been getting away with sexual abuse, be it Jimmy Saville or members of the Lords (or probably Commons).
    If you’re a young black working class male, laws are going to be enforced as harshly as possible. If you’re at Eton then they’ll overlook the same indiscretions.

  72. “Fred: Out of sync with reality and Scotland once again.”

    Actually I’m not. Scotland is not Northern Ireland and Glasgow is not Belfast no matter how much some here would like to be.

    Sectarian crime is actually very low in comparison to NI and what there is is mainly football related. Marches are only responsible for 2% of what sectarian crime there is.

    Don’t get me wrong, sectarian crime is deplorable and what there is should be stamped out but the fact of the matter is that the majority of Scots are not football fans and of those that are the majority don’t support Rangers or Celtic and of those that do the majority are not religious bigots. The small minority of trouble makers need dealing with but they do not represent Scotland as how much you would like them to.

    The census data shows almost a third of married Catholics are married to a Protestant. The numbers tell the reality. You peddle the myth.

  73. “It has been decided that this would “present an unfairly negative image of the No campaign.””

    With journalists\PR shills, you have to parse the language. The key word here is, of course, ‘unfairly’. They are saying that this Orange March does not represent the tenor and tone of the larger ‘No’ campaign they espouse. Which is interesting. I rather think that this Orange March precisely represents the bullying, dishonest, hectoring, vaguely bigoted, tone of the ‘Better Together campaign’. Perhaps some people don’t want us to discern this?

    As a nuetral, I’ve become increasingly startled at the tactics of the ‘No’ campaign. Open question: is this within the realms of normal political campaigning, or has it crossed over into actual sociopathy? Assuming there is a different. I suspect the latter …

  74. “Point 1: The BBC not covering it because it might harm the No campaign to be associated with such idiots… That seems typical of the bias the BBC has been displaying.”

    Oh for fucks sake. If the BBC cover it then the whingers accuse them of being biassed and if they don’t cover it then the whingers accuse them of being biassed.

    Haven’t you realised yet that whatever the BBC does the whingers are going to be accusing them of being biassed?

  75. ” No you are quite wrong about this. ”

    That’s what every nationalist throughout history has said.

    The clue is in the name.

  76. “As a nuetral,”

    Yes, we can see how neutral.

  77. nevermind, it will happen anyway

    12 Aug, 2014 - 12:15 pm

    Just to make sure that this march is not being reported by the BBC, although this edict does not exclude RT or the ARD or Rai or France 2 covering it, it would be ebst for some dedicated people to attend with poster of the NO campaign to show support for their unionist relics.

    I think that would be essential, one would not want to leave them without the no borders blessing, would one?

  78. According to the latest poll Yes is on 35%, No 55%.

    You can always tell when Craig finds himself on the wrong end of an argument because he starts making wild and lurid accusations. In the past week or so he has attempted to suggest that No voters are Zionist, Orange Order Protestants who support bombing Gaza and are probably paedophiles too.

    The SNP are uncompromising Unionists when it comes to currency matters but that particular little march is going round in circles.

  79. Fred

    Do your comments also apply to Britnats? What you are doing is effectively just name-calling. It does not really merit a response, but I will try.

    Why don’t you look at the policies of the SNP government? There is not a hint of the unsavoury exclusionary policies that are associated with the blood and soil nationalists. Just because the SNP share one word in their name with some organisations which could be described as disreputable does not mean that they share their policies. It is intellectually bankrupt to suggest that they do.

    As for your comments on BBC bias, two academic studies have concluded that there is bias on the part of the BBC. And there have been many more instances since those studies were published. I suppose the academics were just whingeing as well?

    Could it be that you are adopting an emotive hostility to anything and anyone who supports Scottish independence and that you are just letting rip with ill-thought out rants?

  80. Fred: Get a grip !! The main problem is that the BBC censors News by ommission and make the electorate pay for the pleasure.Orwell would’ve loved to have thought of that for his book.
    Fancy an Englishman wi scabby coos calling people who want what the BBC charter promises “whingers”! You do nothing but whinge here. Awa n bile yer heid.
    It is also plain from reporting that the BBC do present news in a biased form, whether it be from Parliament or Israel. You are deaf and blind if you think otherwise!
    And in a world where Corporations are trying to have more power and muscle than Nations, I think Nationalism is more about protecting what you have from greedy faceless organisations.
    Of course they dont want borders !! Free trade ?? It’s an excuse to exploit and steal.
    I don’t suppose you’ll realise that until you’re sick and can’t pay for your doctor,because you spent all day on your laptop instead of feeding that scabby coo of yours.

  81. “Do your comments also apply to Britnats?”

    Just which part of “the clue is in the name” didn’t you understand?

    If they are nationalist then they are tribalist.

  82. I have just blogged about this over at my place. I suggested that people write to Auntie and ask if she plans to cover the march as a news item.

  83. “As a nuetral,”

    Yes, we can see how neutral.

    @ Fred

    Point of order. I’ll take some stick for my posts, that’s ok. But I have posted several times on this particular subject, and have maintained neutrality throughout. Other posters can back me up on this, if they’ve read anything I’ve posted. I’d actually just about vote ‘No’, though not with any conviction, because I’m not big on nationalist movements in general.

    Craig has made me reconsider my ‘no’ vote (I can’t vote as it happens), but your comment is misguided.

    As you were.

  84. So which Tribalists are the worst?
    Westminster Tribalists that distribute Union Jacks and have all TV stations promoting their Tribal argument,or the SNP Tribalists with no TV stations or Newspapers?
    Westminster Tribalists had a major display of military might at a sporting event.SNP none.
    My opinion is that the military Tribalists are the Nazi’s and the SNP are small time just looking to disengage from an unfair and corrupt warmongering Union.

  85. Fred

    This is getting interesting.

    If I have a set of liberal, progressive and inclusive policies which I want to implement in my “nation” and I choose a name for my organisation which includes the word “nationalist” does that make me tribalist?

    If I have the same polices, but choose a name for my organisation that does not include the word “nationalist”, does that mean I am not tribalist?

    Are you really saying that the organisation is defined by its name?

  86. nevermind, it will happen anyway

    12 Aug, 2014 - 12:54 pm

    Thanks for that Link Ken, the knuckle dragging video is appreciated, what a prospect.
    I think the BBC should cover the march and all the thousands of people attending with No posters.

    Sadly I have not found any link as to were you could download one and share, but there are amny for the Yes campaign. Does the NO campaign hand them out personally? only to ‘special people’?

  87. “But you told me that you often encounter another prejudice, just as strong, that affects you quite directly. So maybe the “we” you refer to doesn’t “have more sense”.”

    There are racists and bigots here just as there are everywhere else. Children learn it at the dinner table same as everywhere else. I don’t think you’ll find anywhere in Britain it doesn’t exist and I think all those more enlightened should be doing their bit to convince people it is socially unacceptable.

    But they are not organised into groups and their energies channelled for political ends. They don’t get together and go marching down the road proclaiming it to the world. The people have not been split into two opposing factions feeding off their hatred for each other.

  88. “If I have a set of liberal, progressive and inclusive policies which I want to implement in my “nation” and I choose a name for my organisation which includes the word “nationalist” does that make me tribalist?”

    Yes.

  89. Argyll:

    “… I have a set of liberal, progressive and inclusive policies which I want to implement in my “nation” …”

    …So you define who belongs to your “nation”, and you want the best for them, while the rest of us can go to buggery. That is surely the very definition of a tribalist.

  90. It’s the Scottish National Party, not the Scottish Nationalist Party.
    Like the ANC.

  91. doug scorgie

    12 Aug, 2014 - 1:51 pm

    Fred
    12 Aug, 2014 – 12:18 am

    “I’m not for the Orange order I can’t stand them. I’m just against anybody who incites sectarian unrest.”

    ———————————

    Perhaps it is sectarian unrest that the British State wants in Scotland Fred. A few riots here, some shooting there, maybe a bomb.

    Divide and rule no?

  92. “Perhaps it is sectarian unrest that the British State wants in Scotland Fred. A few riots here, some shooting there, maybe a bomb.

    Divide and rule no?”

    Then why don’t we not give the British state what they want by attaching so much importance to what is a very small percentage of the population.

  93. “It’s the Scottish National Party, not the Scottish Nationalist Party.”

    Like the BNP.

  94. doug scorgie

    12 Aug, 2014 - 2:17 pm

    Mary
    12 Aug, 2014 – 8:01 am

    Mary, did you see this paragraph in the link you gave?

    “In a July 2001 interview with the Sunday Herald, Jack Ramsay, the General Secretary of the Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland, stated that if Scotland became an independent country “the Orange Order would become a paramilitary force, if you like. It obviously implies a recourse to arms”.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Orange_Lodge_of_Scotland

  95. This was written in May. Do the numbers still apply? If so a massive presence.

    ‘The militantly Protestant Scottish Orange Order is planning a pro-union march of up to 25,000 Orangemen and women through central Edinburgh five days before the Scottish independence referendum takes place on 18 September.

    The parade – potentially the largest by the order to take place in the Scottish capital in decades – will feature Orange Order flute bands, Orange lodges in full regalia and members of the Apprentice Boys of Derry from Northern Ireland.

    Senior figures in the pro-UK Better Together campaign have said they fear a direct link between the Orange Order and the anti-independence cause only days before the referendum could provoke an unwelcome backlash among liberal, leftwing voters at a crucial stage in the campaign.’

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/11/scottish-independence-uda-ulster-loyalists-campaign

  96. This was written in May. Do the numbers still apply? If so a massive presence.

    ‘The militantly Protestant Scottish Orange Order is planning a pro-union march of up to 25,000 Orangemen and women through central Edinburgh five days before the Scottish independence referendum takes place on 18 September.

    The parade – potentially the largest by the order to take place in the Scottish capital in decades – will feature Orange Order flute bands, Orange lodges in full regalia and members of the Apprentice Boys of Derry from Northern Ireland.

    Senior figures in the pro-UK Better Together campaign have said they fear a direct link between the Orange Order and the anti-independence cause only days before the referendum could provoke an unwelcome backlash among liberal, leftwing voters at a crucial stage in the campaign.’

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/11/scottish-independence-uda-ulster-loyalists-campaign

  97. How strange that that post above was duplicated. I had in fact answered Doug Scorgie first saying that I had noticed it and had meant to refer to the threat. Very dangerous these proddies.

  98. Why do you always project your British Nationalism onto others, Fred?
    Is it because you think everyone must think like you?

  99. Republicofscotland

    12 Aug, 2014 - 3:25 pm

    No wonder the BBC won’t be covering the Orange Order march next month, both they and the no camp, will not want to see their bigoted foot soldiers run amok in Scotland’s capital, broadcast all over the tv, though I’m pretty sure Henry Dunbar would be proud of his sectarian scrappers.

  100. On the Empire Games/Commonwealth Games/aka Bread and Circuses.

    Empire shadow still hangs heavy over Scotland

    ‘While other European empires had been swept away upon the succession of hostilities in 1919, one consequence of victory was that our Empire survived, as did that of the French. Versailles allowed both parties, along with the emergent US to reshape Europe, as they had already carved up the former Ottoman territories into appropriately sized Middle East mandates which also suited emerging oil interests, via the Sykes-Picot Agreement 1916, the Balfour Declaration 1917 and the Cairo Conference of 1921.

    Almost 100 years later, their manipulation of these lands to suit French and British geopolitical interests lies in bloody tatters. Europe’s League of Nations restructuring fell away much earlier with the rise and subsequent defeat of Hitler, whose power base in part came from the national humiliation inflicted by Versailles.’

    /..
    http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/08/12/empire-shadow-still-hangs-heavy-over-scotland/

  101. Fred – you are just being ridiculous so there is no point in discussing this with you further.

    Gutter “So you define who belongs to your “nation”, and you want the best for them, while the rest of us can go to buggery. That is surely the very definition of a tribalist.”

    I am not defining who belongs to our nation and neither is the Scottish Government. Who belongs to our nation is defined by who lives here – plain and simple. And we welcome immigrants – unlike the UK as a whole. (Except of course that because we are still in the UK, we are not allowed to follow a progressive immigration policy). So does that make everyone who wants to “define who belongs to their nation” (i.e. by keeping immigrants out) a tribalist?

    The whole point is that the Scotland that I want and I believe the Scotland the Scottish Government wants will be inclusive, tolerant, diverse and progressive. The rest of the UK, led by the South East of England in particular, seems hell bent on being exclusive, intolerant, insular and regressive.

    Kind of like the Orange Order, to get back to the topic.

  102. doug scorgie

    12 Aug, 2014 - 4:30 pm

    Fred
    12 Aug, 2014 – 2:01 pm

    “Then why don’t we not give the British state what they want by attaching so much importance to what is a very small percentage of the population.”

    That sentence makes no sense Fred. Can you elucidate? (It comes under e in the dictionary).

  103. doug scorgie

    12 Aug, 2014 - 4:33 pm

    And while I’m at it; can those people here stop trying to imply that this referendum is about the SNP?

    A yes vote is not a vote for the SNP!

  104. “Who belongs to our nation is defined by who lives here – plain and simple. And we welcome immigrants – unlike the UK as a whole.”

    Yet the 2011 census shows that only 1.4% of the population of Scotland is Muslim compared to 4.8% in England and Wales.

  105. Argyll:

    1. Fred’s sentence may be inelegant but it makes perfect sense.

    2. You are defining who does and doesn’t belong to your tribe when you declare, as Tony M did earlier in this thread (and you did not dissent) that an independent Scotland can wash its hands of all responsibility for its Northern Irish colony, because Ulster Scots have some English and Irish ancestry and so aren’t real Scots.

  106. Gutter

    I don’t know which of Fred’s sentences you are referring to.

    Your reference to Scotland’s Northern Irish colony is non-sensical. I do not accept that it is a Scottish colony – any more than Scotland is an Irish colony. It is true that there was much migration between Scotland and the North of Ireland in times gone by. As I understand it, there was migration to Scotland from Ireland and then migration back to Ireland. I believe that the flow of population was a two way process for a prolonged period. However, I claim no particular expertise on this.

    The important point however is that at no time has Ireland or any part of it been a colony of Scotland’s. It was conquered by England. Subsequently Scotland, as part of the unified kingdom, played its part in exercising colonial control over Ireland. So to the extent that Ireland has ever been a colony, it was first an English colony and then a British colony. When Ireland was partitioned in 1922, Northern Ireland was the continuing British “colony”, although by that time the whole of Ireland had been assimilated into the UK, so the creation of the Irish Free State was an act of secession from the UK.

    Northern Ireland is now an integral part of the UK, as is Scotland. It has never been a Scottish colony, however strongly you might assert that it has.

  107. I am honestly baffled by the stance taken by certain alleged left leaning British Nationalists. What is it they actually have a problem with in regard to Scottish independence?
    Do they think that no country should have left the bosom of mother England? Were the Australians Nazis for leaving? The Yanks?
    Does wanting to be independent automatically make you a Nazi?

  108. Argyll:
    That really is sophistry. Yes, Northern Ireland is a British colony now, but if you succeed in eviscerating the UK, then Britain will no longer exist, so it will no longer be British, it will be Scottish. It is very close to Scotland and it is full of Scots, so it would be very perverse to say it was English or Welsh, wouldn’t it?
    As I said to Tony M, you’d not be so keen to disclaim it if it had oil fields.

  109. Well put Juteman. As you will have seen from my exchanges with Fred, it does not matter about the substance of the policies – it is sufficient to have the word National or Nationalist in your governing party’s title. That makes you a “tribalist”. The fact that many people intending to vote Yes are not SNP supporters or the fact that around 30% and rising of Labour party supporters are inending to vote Yes does not seem to enter into their thought processes. If you are a Yes voter, you are effectively a Nazi in their minds.

    Sad, but unimportant.

  110. Gutter

    Your ignorance is showing.

    First, Britain will exist until we are struck by an asteroid or the planet explodes or some equivalent catastrophic event occurs. Britain is the island on which the nations of Scotland, England and Wales exist. (I understand that Wales was designated a nation a few years ago. Previously it was a principality of England.)

    Second, Northern Ireland is not a colony of anybody’s. It is an integral part of the United Kingdom and has been since 1801.

    Third, the UK government has been at pains to stress that what I would call rUK (i.e. the UK without Scotland) will be the continuing state in the event of Scottish independence. This is how they justify their assertions that rUK will continue in Europe, whereas (they say) Scotland will need to apply to join. It is how they justify their position on the currency union – they claim to be the continuing UK so the £ sterling is theirs. I also assume they will want to keep their permanent seat on the UN Security Council. If the UK government is constitutionally correct, then Northern Ireland will continue to be part of what will then be rUK.

    Now there is an argument that says the UK will cease if either of the two signatories (The Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England) to the bi-partite agreement to unify secedes. If this was accepted, constitutional lawyers would have a field day, but I think a reasonable assumption would be that arrangements would revert to their pre-unification state. If that turned out to be the case, then Northern Ireland would revert to being a colony of England, as it was before the creation of the UK.

    Whether there is oil in Northern Irish waters is irrelevant. Northern Ireland is not mine to either claim or disclaim. My personal view of the best course for Northern Ireland would be unification with the state if Ireland. But that is not for me to decide – I have no say and I do not wish a say.

  111. @Gutter.
    Don’t assume others share your avarice.

  112. “I am honestly baffled by the stance taken by certain alleged left leaning British Nationalists.”

    You could always find a blog where left leaning British Nationalists post and ask them.

  113. Argyll:
    More sophistry. Obviously I was referring to the polity of Britain, not the island of Great Britain.
    And according to Wikipedia, most of the original Scottish colonists settled Ulster in the early 1600s. So Northern Ireland had been colonised by Scots for a full hundred years before the Act of Union.
    It takes heroic act of revisionism to claim that Ulster was then or ever has been an English colony. It is unambiguously a Scottish colony.

  114. No serious answer then, Fred?
    I can understand you being against indy, as the UK allowed you to sell your flat down south under Thatcher for a huge profit, and buy a large plot of land up here. The UK has been good to you. Fuck those Jock plebs and their foodbanks, eh?

  115. But they were all the same people in the first place?

    Robert I of Scotland and Domhnall Ua Néill during the Scottish Wars of Independence, when Ireland was called Scotia Maior, and Scotland Scotia Minor. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotia

  116. “No serious answer then, Fred?
    I can understand you being against indy, as the UK allowed you to sell your flat down south under Thatcher for a huge profit, and buy a large plot of land up here. The UK has been good to you. Fuck those Jock plebs and their foodbanks, eh?”

    Whenever someone tries to argue the case against independence there is always a Nationalist comes in name calling, making personal accusations, harassing and intimidating.

    These are the tactics of the Nazi, these were the tactics of the Black Shirt.

    Laughable there are people here trying to argue that the SNP aren’t like other nationalists when you are proving that they are.

  117. So you won’t answer the question, Fred?
    Why are you so against Scottish independence?

  118. BBC Scotland didnt always have an issue with portraying the Orange Order-or taking the piss out of it.

    Here’s Mason Boyne’s Meeting from the 1980s.

    Funny how times change…

    https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=1FPt1FdIxro

  119. Who else should the BBC choose to host Scotland Decides tonight on BBC2 at 9.30 but Andrew Neil.

    Duration: 1 hour http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04dr69k

    ‘So far the Scottish referendum debate has been almost entirely about Scotland – what is good for it and what is bad for it. But what about the rest of the UK? Whatever the result, the UK as we have known it for the past 300 years is set to change dramatically, and may never be the same again.

    If you think independence would not make any difference to the other 58 million people on these islands, think again. The reverberations could be felt across the land, from the future of the armed forces and nuclear deterrent, to the UK’s place at the international top table; from the fate of the union flag to the entire British political landscape.

    Andrew Neil explores what an independent Scotland would mean for England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and the huge constitutional changes that may lie ahead whether the vote is yes or no.’

  120. Gerallt Lloyd Owen the Welsh poet’s obituary appeared in the Independent today (obituaries of Welsh language poets in English papers, even the Indy, doesn’t happen very often)

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/gerallt-lloyd-owen-renowned-welsh-poet-9662458.html

    Wylit, wylit, Lywelyn,

    Wylit waed pe gwelit hyn.

    Ein calon gan estron ŵr,

    Ein coron gan goncwerwr,

    A gwerin o ffafrgarwyr

    Llariaidd eu gwên lle’r oedd gwŷr.

    “You would weep, weep, Llywelyn/ Weep blood if you saw this./ Our heart with a foreigner/ Our crown with a conqueror/ And a populace of favour-seekers/ With meek smiles, where once were men.”

    Although I haven’t made my mind up about the referendum yet I think it reasonable to say that Gerallt Lloyd Owen had and so only right that I should post that in the Independent obituary Meic Stephens says:

    At his request, donations instead of flowers were to be sent to the Yes campaign in the referendum on Scottish independence.

  121. I have never seen an Orange Order march, other than on TV. There the uniform seems to be little more than an orange sash and a bowler hat. I think there is also an OO tie. Personally, I’m not bothered either way. The BBC not covering the thing is possibly more interesting. The march must surely count as a piece of cultural trivia – though again there might be tensions around covering it.

    More interesting, is the presence of such a baroque event in the 21st century. From what cultural corner of Scotland does this group come? Do they have a place that Scotland recognises? Clearly, they exist – rather in the way that there is a UKIP MEP. Does any contemporary account of ‘Scotland’ have a place for these groups? Or have they been edited out of Scotland’s story. And if so – by whom? Are they ‘unpersons’?

  122. Gutter

    Like Fred, you are getting a bit silly. Just because you say my arguments are sophistry does not make it so.

    It is true, and I agreed, that there has been over the years a great deal of migration between Scotland and Ireland and in particular the North of Ireland. That is not in dispute. That does not make Ireland or any part of it a colony of Scotland.

    Ireland was invaded by the Normans (from England) in the twelfth century. Things came and went a bit until Henry VIII (of England) re-invaded Ireland in 1536. Elizabeth I (of England) completed the process and by the time of the union of the crowns in the early 1600s Ireland had been subdued by England.

    Ireland was therefore an English colony and was formally integrated into the United Kingdom in 1801. At that time it was no longer a colony, but was part of the UK.

    These are the facts and you can make whatever assertions you like, but you cannot make Northern Ireland a Scottish colony. Your arguments, such as they are, do not amount to sophistry – they are just wrong.

  123. Argyll:
    What you say is true about Southern Ireland, but not the North. There’s a reason the people there are called the ‘Ulster Scots’ not the ‘Ulster English’, and that reason is the Plantation of Ulster. A century before the Union, thousands of settlers, overwhelmingly Scots, were sent from Scotland to colonise the, at that time, very sparsely populated North of Ireland. Ulster was colonised by Scotland. It is a Scottish colony. I don’t see how any rational person could honestly deny that. But I can quite see why a nationalist might dishonestly try.

  124. Argyll

    Thanks for that.

    I’ve heard that there was what historians call The Plantation of Ulster. 1600s, I believe.

    Can you please confirm that no Irish plants were harmed in this process.

    AND, if not, that no Scottish plants were involved.

  125. The Irish colonised the west of Scotland, the Highlands and Islands.

    Gave you your name.

    Your language.

    Trade routes to Rome.

    Iona.

    And finally united you.

    You gave us the Orange Order, The Black Watch, and sundry other unnecessary bigotries.

    Where did we go wrong

    Still.

    There’s a bigger enemy, beyond the sibling squabbles.

    Daddy is old and dying.

    Vote YES.

  126. A sash and a bowler hat…

    A very clockwork Orange Order.

    They are deep-fried throwbacks to ignorance,on the whole.

  127. nevermind, it will happen anyway

    13 Aug, 2014 - 9:36 am

    My missis and myself walked out of Queens St station into St George square right into their annual unionist march, two years ago, only to take a right turn and walk away for the next hour just to get away.

    We took the bus back to the station later, with two of the most drunken, shaved and tattooed individuals using half of it as their pub, with beer bott;les rolling around the bus and loud noises to be heard, don’t ask what they were sayin’ I could not understand a word. After managing to get to the doors, they rolled out of the bus two stops before Queens street never to be seen again.

    Luckily we had a delightfull meeting with Suhayl later on, I hope he’s happy and healthy, so everything has its balance.

  128. ‘BTW Fred see this “peaceful” sporting a uvf armband and his leather bullet pouch, surely he uses it to store his chocolate sank bars.’

    Fedup- the leather bullet pouch and uvf armband look like WW1 relics to me, and hark back to the original UVF subsequently incorporated into the British Army which in 1916 fought, and sustained massive losses, at the Somme.

    Both George Galloway and the Ulster Prods are ‘unionists’ in the Scottish context, but GG has given the main political voice of the latter a withering put- down here-

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28769435

  129. Gutter

    My final word on the alleged “Scottish Colony” of Northern Ireland.

    No part of Ireland has, or ever has had, the status of a “Colony of Scotland”. That is just a fact. You might put an interpretation on the migration of Scots to Ireland and you might think that what happened is tantamount to colonisation, but that does not make Northern Ireland a Scottish colony. Being a colony is a legal status given to a territory, declared by the colonising power. No such declaration has been made by Scotland at any time. Therefore Northern Ireland is not and never has been a Scottish Colony. It was however part of the English colony of Ireland and is now part of the UK.

    End of.

  130. doug scorgie

    13 Aug, 2014 - 4:26 pm

    Fool
    12 Aug, 2014 – 9:02 pm

    “You would weep, weep, Llywelyn/ Weep blood if you saw this./ Our heart with a foreigner/ Our crown with a conqueror/ And a populace of favour-seekers/ With meek smiles, where once were men.”

    A wise man.

  131. David Wilson – for your info both UTV & BBC cover The Twelfth demo`s in Northern Ireland – with live feeds and then half hour programmes in the evening. It is a public holiday. It is also promoted by the likes of the Ulster-Scots Agency and the Tourism Ireland body which is part funded by the Republic of Ireland, it being a North-South body. Most demo`s also receive funding from councils including majority Sinn Fein councils such as Cookstown, Dungannon, Londonderry/Derry.

Powered By Wordpress | Designed By Ridgey | Produced by Tim Ireland | Hosted by Expathos