62 thoughts on “The 4.45pm Link

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  • Abe Rene

    I wonder whether the Israeli foreign ministry spokesman realised the irony of his own words: “I’m sure it was a hasty decision that will be quickly regretted”.

  • Ishmael

    Anything, however small, is progress. It will give others the courage to join in. We need to extracate the Zionists entrenced within hebrew society so real hebrews can properly represent their race.

  • Arsalan

    Ishmael,

    Zionists are not Hebrews, they are not Jews, they are only racists and Nazis.

    And now the whole world has realised this, so the only people who side with them now are other racists and Nazis.

    Take a look at their demonstrations and see the skinheaded BNP and EDL waving Israeli flags while giving Nazi salutes.

  • Courtenay Barnett

    I share these thoughts.

    Let’s put events in chronological sequence:-

    1. During and subsequent to 1948 some 700,000 Palestinians were forcibly expelled from what is today Israel. Viewed through the eyes of the law, one may consider this fact conjunctively with fact 2 below.

    2. Subsequent to the recognition of the 1967 borders as Israel’s territorial area, Israel has continued with a policy of settling on lands outside that territorial area.

    The law might be considered in light of the factual situation at 1 and 2 above:-

    The Geneva Convention on the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, known as the Fourth Geneva Convention: –

    Article 49: Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive. … The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

    The United Nations Charter, Article 51 reads:-

    Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.

    Comment

    If one were to put the matter in basic human terms, forgetting the legality for a moment, maybe in the most humane way I might ask:-

    If you lived on a stretch of land for some ten generations, or more, and inherited your family home there, I assume that you would have some sense of belonging and ownership in respect of the home and the land upon which your home is built.

    If someone forcibly expelled you, then in self-defence you would, I assume, retaliate.

    The sense of displacement, might, I also assume, lead to a sense of grievance, which if not fairly addressed would extend to violent acts at some stage.

    Some personal reflections

    As a student at London University, I saw posted one day, a discussion between a Palestinian Professor and a Jewish Professor. Young man that I was then, with dreams of one day being a lawyer, I learned a lesson about civil debate. Both men impressed me with the degree of civility and intellectual clarity with which they addressed the question of the Palestinian/ Israeli conflict. In summary, both articulated two narratives of the histories of both people and their placement in Palestine/Israel.

    I listened keenly, made notes, and reflected deeply on what both men said. At a later stage I read a book written by Abba Eban, and again, the clarity of thought and articulate expressions were impressive.

    Having said all that, myself a lawyer, these many years later, with a multitude of cases behind me, I ask a fundamental question, noting both the

    Israeli ?” Yom Ha’atzmaut (Independence Day)

    And

    The Palestinain – Nakba Day ( “day of the catastrophe”)

    I ask the question ?” what does constitute justice for the Palestinian people if not the right of a homeland which they had before 1948?

    The Palestinian intellectual, Edward Said, on a PBS interview in the US, made the observation that the only solution was a one state solution. He raised the issue of the demographics of the region. It seems that the state of Israel, based as it is on an assumption of conferred rights derived from ethnicity, must also transfer that de facto assumption into a de jure format, for the continued functioning of the Jewish state. How does one then give equal rights under the law to non-Jews, and over time maintain Jewish statehood if one does not discriminate as regards the electoral rights of those who are non-Jews in the Jewish state, if it is to be a Jewish majority that is to determine the character and nature of “the Jewish state”?

    The action of extending occupation beyond the 1967 borders does not find support under international law.

    I recall discussions with white South Africans, when the status quo of Apartheid was all they knew. Resistance, peaceful at first, then of a military nature was the sequence that events unfolded in response to injustice. Any people faced with injustice will over time react. At first the articulation of concern about the wrong, then maybe legal representations about the injustice, then violent responses, then an escalation of the violence if the just redress is not forthcoming. This has been the cycle in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

    So far as the future of any likely negotiated settlement on the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is concerned, the fact of the US giving blind partisan support to all Israeli actions, does not proffer well for any honest brokerage or for any just peace anytime soon. The recent official US response to the boarding by the IDF of the ships carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza, is sufficiently indicative of why the problem’s intractability is made all the more intractable.

    The conscience of the world does speak, when the Swedish dock workers react in protest against the Israeli actions of inflicting collective punishment against the Palestinian people.

    Might does not make right and an oppressed and disenfranchised people do have a right to resist injustice.

    Aluta continua.

  • Louise Gallagher

    They’re saying the dock action is illegal under the European Court of Human Rights… Was that statement made with or without a tone of extremely heavy irony, I wonder?

  • Ian M

    Well done Sweden. A trade and cultural boycott is beginning to happen, we can only hope it spreads. South Africa is a good model in terms of the impact it can have. At the moment ordinary Israelis can completely ignore the brutality of their own government, happy to believe the propaganda they are fed, and dismiss Palestinians as people who deserve no human rights or justice. Because there is no penalty or comeback for them. However, they do get very stroppy and infuriated at boycotts which bring home to them the disgust of the rest of the world. The best thing about it is that they can’t send in their tinpot crack squads to beat up and shoot people who happen to believe in human rights for all, not just Jewish Israelis. So it is a good area for people to focus their attention on.

  • Leo

    “A spokesman for Israel’s foreign ministry said a dock action like the one being urged in Sweden was illegal, according to rulings by the European Court of Human Rights.”

    ahahahaha

    Israel

    accusing someone else

    of human rights abuses

    ahahahahha

  • Abe Rene

    Rerurning to the blockade, it seems to me that a number of things need to happen simultaneously.

    1. The blockade to be lifted and the free flow of goods (apart from arms) as well as normal travel permitted to and from Gaza; and Gazans enabled to build an economy.

    2. Rockets into Israel( whether imprecisely guided or not) to cease, and Hamas to embrace a de facto position similar to the PLO, which wil make common negotiations on behalf of Palestinians possible again.

    3. No one appears to have yet mentioned the Israeli captive Gilad Shalit. Perhaps some feel he’s not important. Perhaps some think ‘So what? There are plenty of Palestinians in Israeli jails that shouldn’t be there.’ But I think that all Palestinian political prisoners should be released, who don’t have blood on their hands, and that Gilad Shalit should be released as well.

  • Ian M

    Brilliant, Israel complaining about human rights and trying to invoke legality, sticking its nose into other countries business. You couldn’t make it up. Go Sweden. Amazing how touchy a bunch of gangsters are about their ‘rights’. Ha ha ha

  • Freeborn

    Check out Anthony Lawson’s new brace of short films on the parasitic relationship AIPAC and Israel enjoy with their US hosts.

    They’re both at YouTube.The first one is called The Orange and the Pea.

    No prizes for guessing which one is which!

  • Larry from St. Louis

    You idiots are really still making the argument that the Israeli troops opened fire before they boarded. Wow.

    Guess those “peace activists” hanging out on the deck thought their bodies could magically avoid bullets.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeDh_WZwBX0

    You people are just insane.

  • arsalan

    Larry nothing you will ever say matters, because you will defend Israel no matter what.

  • Freeborn

    Oh,the guy with a brain the size of a pea-CATHOUSE LARRY is back!

    Hey,dingbat!

    Read re-your sick parasitic apartheid state:

    http://nogw.com/israeliatrocities.html#palestine

    Wonder how many Palestinian children and babies your hopeless IDF yellow-streak-afflicted bums killed today?

    Crawl back in your hole you Zionist ass-wipe!

  • Larry from St. Louis

    “Larry nothing you will ever say matters, because you will defend Israel no matter what.”

    That’s one of the things that you people have to continue to tell yourselves, and it’s simply not true.

    I imagine you’re projecting.

    Do you think bin Laden ever did anything wrong?

  • Louise Gallagher

    @ Larry

    You ask ‘Do you think bin Laden ever did anything wrong?’

    Well, yes, of course he did. What a truly bizarre question!

    You can’t seriously believe criticism of Israel’s foreign policy equates to support for Al Qaeda?

  • TheA1mighty

    Larry,

    What part of ‘international waters’ do you not understand.

    If I saw special forces goons parasailing down onto my boat in international waters, I would give em what for with whatever I had to hand too. I’m pretty sure you would try defend yourself too. Wouldn’t you ?

  • Apostate

    Just got word Larry the Zio-shill’s back.

    Yo,Cathouse!

    The guy that single-handedly managed to convince everyone that 911 WAS an inside job!

    Your B’nai B’rith sponsors must have run low on resources to have to turn to you again,dude.Have you still got the other shills in tow? I mean crabs,techni et al.

    What a team-you guys have got as much chance of convincing anyone of Israel’s “right to exist” as they have of winning the World Cup!

    That job you got working out Larry Silverstein’s cathouse lost you your wife,boy!

  • Parky

    of course if british dock workers wanted a similar strike, they would have to be balloted and then the decision would be over turned by the high court so they can’t..

  • Larry from St. Louis

    “What part of ‘international waters’ do you not understand.”

    Their intent was clear. They were heading into Israeli territory. They couldn’t have made it more clear. Are you seriously suggesting that the ship was going to turn back?

  • Larry from St. Louis

    “You can’t seriously believe criticism of Israel’s foreign policy equates to support for Al Qaeda?”

    No, that was intended solely for Arsalan, who’s the local Muslim nutjob.

    I have issues with Israeli foreign policy.

    As usual with you people, you’re reading too much into what I wrote.

  • Courtenay Barnett

    @ Louise,

    Thanks for the link to the Chomsky interview. My comments are:-

    The interviewer of Chomsky is trying to do the ?” ‘but there are other bad guys in the world’ ?” debate trick. In other words, by trying to shift the focus to other bad actions in the world ?” then why criticise the wrong at hand done by Israel.

    Poor misunderstood Israel, so let us:-

    1. Forget about the expansions beyond the 1967 boundaries.

    2. When it comes on to the illegal occupation, she tries to deflect by saying that it is “a complex situation ?” not black and white.”

    3. On international law ?” she fails to show any willingness to refer to this objective standard.

    She moves through the interview on the assumption of some sort of absolute position of Israeli right. Through my eyes, if we can’t come back to some sort of rational basis for objective reference, then all is lost.

    How can I debate, or rationally deal with, a person who is convinced that God gave some absolute right to do a particular act? In fairness, the interviewer did not go that far, but there was a pervasive sense of Israeli self-righteousness throughout the interview. She throws international law out the window, so that then leaves the subjective standard to judge what the state actor does ?” always justifiable ex post facto without any reference to any consistent rational legal measure. Once the state actor does not have any point of consistent logical reference to determine the legitimacy, or illegitimacy of the action, then anything goes ?” as we see with the piracy against the humanitarian aid ships.

    But, is it not the supreme irony to see the same Israel try to reply on the provisions of the European Convention on Human Rights, while at the same time blatantly flouting the provisions of the UN Charter and other provisions of international law?

  • Louise Gallagher

    @ Larry

    Ah okay, Larry. But to be fair (if this time your ‘you people’ includes me) my confusion was due to the ‘you idiots’ and ‘you people’ in your posts – it wasn’t apparent that your question was aimed at only one specific poster.

  • Louise Gallagher

    @ Courtenay

    Yes indeed. Her assumptions were blatant throughout. It was a shame Chomsky didn’t quite get the chance to challenge the ‘we can agree that it’s not black and white…’ fudge. That was possibly the only one that got away though.

  • doug scorgie

    Abe Rene, You say: ” I think that all Palestinian political prisoners should be released, who don’t have blood on their hands, and that Gilad Shalit should be released as well.” You seem to imply (innocently I’m sure) that Galid Shalit has no blood on his hands. I doubt that many Palistinians see it that way. You must consider the media propaganda. Practically everyone in the world will have heard the name Gilad Shalit and what a lovely young man he is (which may be true) but hardly anyone will be able to name Palestinians (some of them children) who have, effectivly, been kidnapped by the IDF.

    I agree that all political prisoners should be released but there are hundreds of these prisoners in Israeli jails. They are there because some of them throw stones at tanks and others support a Hamas government (under its political wing). Many of them are actually members of the Palestinian government, elected properly by voters, but because they are Hamas MPs they were imprisoned for belonging to a (US/Israel definition of) “terrorist organization”. I do not support Hamas ideology but they did win a fair and properly conducted election. The US and Israel did not anticipate a Hamas win, which is why the political wing of Hamas was allowed to participate as a legitimate political party at that time. When Hamas won, democracy was cancelled. All the political prisoners in Israel/Palestine are victims (including Gilad Shalit) of Zionism and the EU/US/Israel foreign policy.

    Regards.

  • TheA1mighty

    @ Larry

    ‘I have issues with Israeli foreign policy.

    As usual with you people, you’re reading too much into what I wrote.’

    Would you care to share ?, or just stand on the sidelines shouting abuse at all and sundry as usual ?

  • Anonymous

    Larry so was it okay for the Israelis to murder Americana Serviceman aboard the USS liberty in international waters. Did you applaud you country men being shot up by your allies? Why don’t you answer you dumb Bastard. Do you how many were killed or wounded. Are you related to Jonathan Pollard is he your Hero? Why did they lock him up?

  • StefZ

    There’s a BBC account of the attack on the Liberty available on Google video (‘Dead in the Water’)

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3319663041501647311&hl=en#

    The Israelis’ explanation of how they mistook an American ship traveling at 2-3 knots for an Egyptian ship traveling at 25-30 knots is quite entertaining, particularly when you hear how the Israelis started jamming American, not Egyptian, radio frequencies just before they started dropping napalm on the ship’s decks…

    It’s a shame more Americans don’t know about the Liberty attack, as some of them might get round to asking why they’ve been subsidising this sort of thing through billions of dollars of aid every year. Aid to a country with a GDP per capita somewhere between Italy and New Zealand

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