Which Union Does Scotland Want To Be In?

by craig on November 1, 2012 3:03 pm in Uncategorized

The rabid anti-Europeanism displayed in the recent House of Commons debate on EU funding was a further clarification of a simple political truth. The real choice facing Scotland in 2014 is, “Which union do you wish to be in?”

Scotland can either be independent within the European Union or part of the United Kingdom outside the European Union. In joining the pro-UKIP wing of the Tory Party in the vote, Ed Milliband was, with short term shrewdness, tapping in to a bottomless well of English atavism that I have no doubt, from living there and simple observation of those around me, is leading England inexorably out of the European Union.

UKIP support rises, the Tory xenophobes bray, New Labour joins them because as always it scents the way to money and power. The English have already kept the UK out of Schengen and the Euro, the two most important developments in the history of the EU and both of which it would be great to be in. (On my advice a company here in Ghana is now buying tens of millions of pounds of manufactured equipment from Sweden, switching source from the UK, because the weak Euro gives much better value for money). The UK is already out of some of the most important aspects of the EU, snad the rest will follow.

When did any major English political figure dare to suggest in public that the EU is a good thing? That, incidentally, is a genuine question. Any answers? Neither English politicians nor media care to hide their gloating at the Eurozone’s economic difficulties, and the London media still makes daily predictions of the end of the Euro, despite having been wrong on the subject 1,000 days in a row.

Most amusing is when pundits who don’t actually support the EU themselves leap with glee when they can find a Spaniard wishing to be disobliging about an independent Scotland’s EU status. Said Spaniard is suddenly the ultimate authority on EU law, even though the same pundits deride Spain in every other circumstance.

It won’t be on the ballot paper. But the real question for the Scots is “Which union do you wish to be in?”

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142 Comments

  1. One thing puzzles me here – Sweden isn’t in the Euro either, so I don’t see how the low Euro will help when buying equipment from there

  2. It’s from Siemens Sweden and priced in Euros, I guess because it’s Siemens.

  3. I would rather be in neither. The above two options do not seem like any kind of independence.

  4. “Independent within the European Union” – that’s a contradiction in terms, isn’t it?

  5. I do find it particularly amusing that the unionists are trying to use uncertainty about whether an independent Scotland would automatically remain in the EU to try and scare people away from voting “Yes”, whilst their colleagues in Westminster are carrying on like this. Also, there’s the wonderfully ridiculous argument that Scotland is better represented within the EU by being part of the UK than we would be if we were independent… The UK may have numerically superior representation, but it seems to be entirely dedicated to pissing the rest of Europe off as much as possible. I’d rather not be “represented” like that, thank you very much.

  6. @ Craig,
    Since the arms trade, security arrangements, treaties and Trident as well as nuclear issues are of central concern to HMG in addressing the whole question of Scotland’s secession – then how are these questions to be addressed?
    It seems to me that since the United Kingdom’s nuclear deterrent programme has a strong Scottish component, then London will need to have some sort of advanced formula in waiting if and when Scotland secedes.
    In light of the above considerations, what then are the consequences for both London and Edinburgh?
    The nuclear and arms component to the issue of secession is an area that will be quite telling and shall remain of great importance.
    These issues relate both to Scotland’s and England’s relationship with the EU and surely NATO as well – do they not?
    But – we will never know what GCHQ is thinking – will we Craig?

  7. Of course there have been a disproportionately high number of Scottish politicians in cabinet in recent years, and yet it is not stated here that it’s the ‘British’ who keep us out of Europe, but rather specifically the ‘English’

    Maybe the English will stop being blamed for all ills within the British Isles after devolution, but I doubt it.

  8. I shall cheerfully blame the English for everything, under any circumstances!

  9. Well spoken Craig and also Courtney, it is without doubt that the decisions as to whether to carry the unions nuclear deterrent/prime target is a vital part of the debate.
    As any use would put Scotland, as the originator country, up against the ICC ruling on WMD’s indiscriminate nature.

    So it will also be a vote for and against moving Trident. Ideally to central London, so for the first time in its life, it can earn some money offering access to tourists and showing them what these WMD’s can do.

    I can see it now, ‘afternoon tea at the doomsday table’, a snip at £ 20/head, for an extra fiver you can touch a nuclear missile.

  10. ‘Salmond’s nark’ and what lies behind the politics in Whitehall ref Scotland.

    When it comes to Sir Peter Housden, we have a problem
    The civil servant called ‘Salmond’s nark’ has fallen foul of hardening attitudes in Whitehall

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9645906/When-it-comes-to-Sir-Peter-Housden-we-have-a-problem.html

  11. Blame the US, Craig. Even the Herald does.

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/referendum-news/scots-statelet-bad-for-us.19295173

    Hidden agenda, war on t’error.

  12. Michael Wright

    1 Nov, 2012 - 4:37 pm

    Soon after that I suspect Uk will become part of the USA, which lead conclude that the USA is responsible for Bloody Sunday. I however have no proof but does make sense for me.

  13. European union is a very nice idea in principle. But so far it seems to have fallen into the hands of unscrupulous political hacks to whom democracy is a foreign concept. Moreover, there is no prospect whatsoever of any improvement in the EUs’ basic institutions, or in its honesty.

    Craig, when is Japan going to ask to become a province of China? Its position vis a vis China is very similar to the UK’s vis a vis Europe. Yet I have never seen the slightest enthusiasm in Japan for such a union, nor have I seen the least criticism of japanese leaders for not proposing it.

  14. As a ten-year old I used to go train-spotting with my brother and a friend at Scrooby Crossing or Bawtry Station. One of the highlights was when we saw the famous Flying Scotsman which was built just up the road at Doncaster go past. It was in a class children called ‘Blinkers’ and had held the world speed record at one time, but then Mallard, in a class children called ‘streaks’, came along and smashed the record. The Flying Scotsman ran from London to Edinburgh. This was in the days of nationalisation and it was romantic for children to ponder the unifying link between one country and another which seemed so very far away. At about the same age my dad took the family on holiday to Edinburgh, where it was quaint to find some men wore kilts among them a piper who busked in the street. It was a different country, with different cultures. It was so difficult to understand people when they spoke it seemed totally foreign. Despite that Scotland, for me, has always been part of what I’ve thought of as my nation.

    I mentioned, rather incongruously it might seem, the word nationalisation, but what I really wanted to encapsulate was a centrally governed economic system. There was a time in England when the state provided for things like healthcare, and children’s education, though there were few educational aspirations for the sons and daughters who lived in the West Riding and North Nottinghamshire’ mining villages.

    Later in life I got round to reading Winifred Holtby’s ‘South Riding’ which has the tale of a poverty-trapped but gifted child who was deprived of her education because she was needed at home to help bring up siblings. It is a sad read. (In real life in 2000 I saw exactly the same situation in a village in Romania. Fortunately for Florentina her life worked out well and she now enjoys whatever Sydney, Australia has to offer.)

    The post-war government invested so heavily in education for all it meant that people like myself could get a university education for free even though I had previously spent 17 years as a toolmaker. Recently there has been an erosion of the principle of education for all, and a return to the dark days when it was available only to those who could afford it. One of my stepsons has just started at university at £9,000 per year. If he lived in Scotland it would have been free, as I believe it should be. This is why Scotland should do whatever is best for Scotland. If that means uniting with other European countries to grow its economy in such a way as to maintain essential services like education and health then that is a good thing. It is a good thing for England too providing it is successful, because we can always challenge Westminster with the success of Scotland. Yes, I for one will miss the unifying link that made us all a part of the United Kingdom. My views are no longer the romantic views of a child. They are entrenched in reality.

  15. A choice between those two unions is unimaginative – both will result in just another NATO member with a corrupt political class.

  16. Barroso’s comments are important because he does happen to be President of the European Commission. He also contradicts what Alex Salmond has been saying for years (and incidentally using public money to resist an FOI request over the source). If that doesn’t ring alarm bells for Scottish voters it should!

    Using the current weakness of the Euro as ammunition in it’s defence is pretty desperate. Exchange rates fluctuate and within a year the situation could be reversed. In the longer term the common currency exacerbated this crisis by enforcing Germany’s interest rate on the rest of the Eurozone and is prolonging it through the EU’s wavering and enforced austerity.

    “Independence within the EU”. Yeah, good one. I see Ireland has won itself a pat on the head from Angular today, obviously sending the budget to Berlin for approval paid off.

  17. If Big Eck has his way, you can be part of both unions at once, by leaving the UK, joining the EU and, best of all, keeping the poond.

  18. I have no idea personally, but Scotland should not be a base for Trident. I personally would not like to see nuclear missile subs parked at Faslane. Nor would I vote for anyone who would advocate joining the EU, reasons too many to be written here.
    The day that Scotland achieves independance is a day I will rejoice, but we can still be magnanimous to the English, say, in a very condecending way. Nationalise the Germans holdings in Scotland, including thier art collection and land.
    Mind you, the entire vote will probably depend on a bunch of 16 year olds with hangovers from a nights binge drinking !

  19. There’ll be a book coming out, later this month I think, of short essays by various people on the theme of independence for Scotland. I’ll keep everyone posted.

  20. Craig 1 Nov, 2012 – 3:17 pm
    “It’s from Siemens Sweden and priced in Euros, I guess because it’s Siemens.”

    That’ll be the Siemens who supplied the gas chambers at Auschwitz and are currently evading bribery charges in Greece. That’s the Europe you want to join?

    The problem of which union to join is not really the problem.

    http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/10/31/greece-to-chase-corrupt-siemens-executives/

  21. Courtenay Barnett, at 4:01pm on 1.11.12:

    “But – we will never know what GCHQ is thinking – will we Craig?”

    True. But they will always know what we are thinking.

  22. Craig 1 Nov, 2012 – 3:17 pm
    “It’s from Siemens Sweden and priced in Euros, I guess because it’s Siemens.”

    Priced in Euros but valued in Krona which has suffered worse than any other currency recently. It’s not so much the weak Euro that your exploiting here as the weak Krona.

  23. Phil your far running logic, although peddling facts, is rightly pointing out that many Nazi firms still bear the same name, Krupp Thyssen , Siemens, IG Farben, as they did then. They are all cheats, just as BAE, one of the best. So what’s the point t you are trying to score?

    Thing is, what is regarded as a jolly by some tartan wearing jocks and British lads here, i.e to raise your hand at 45degree and scream heil…. whatever, is a criminal offence in Germany.

    What a cheap shot, but hey, we thank you for inventing the concentration camp and showing these third Reich arse holes how to do it.

    Moreover, I thank you Phil for reminding us all of the never-ending debt to you, personally, for all the suffered and death during the 1.st second and the forthcoming 3rd. world war.

    If in doubt, Phil
    blame a Kraut,

    here is a little event you can join in on the eve of Remembrance day. Norfolk police, in their wisdom have allowed the EDL to march on City Hall, as is the group called ‘we are Norwich’, who will also demonstrate against them inviting themselves to Norwich, and march on City Hall, what respect these nationalists show for those who died for them.

    http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/politics/english_defence_league_and_counter_demonstrators_will_both_march_on_norwich_s_city_hall_1_1678711

    This is how to wind up people with no more than three sentences, they call this, the whole story on their main page. I cannot understand that these Breivig/Phillips/Geller supporters are allowed to breathe. I shall attend and be as loud as I can possibly manage, whilst turning my back to them.

    Anybody local got a Vuvuzela for hire? Komodo? can I adapt a motorcycle exhaust?

  24. It’s becoming clear to me that the SNP are likely to sell out on everything that matters. The NATO decision was the the ‘murder of Duncan’. Henceforth, they will find it much easier to betray the people. Who will be the first to wash their hands?

    Without radical, fundamental independence, there might as well be none. I do not see independence as the end – to me, a flag, any flag, a national anthem, a tribal myth, mean nothing – but simply as a possible means to an end. Perhaps independence ought to be viewed as a starting-point, but if, on your journey to freedom, you bolt on your chains ever more tightly in the hope that soon you will be strong enough – once you are officially declared free – to cast them off, you may be in for existential disappointment. Today, it’s NATO, tomorrow, of course, it will be Trident. We watched this process with the Labour Party under Kinnock, Smith and Blair during the mid-1980s to early 1990s. We know where that led – to the killing fields of Iraq and to the daylight robbery of privatisation/the banking debacle. Reprise.

    I think that in the UK, the military-intelligence-arms industry is too strong for the SNP, the imperialism, too deep, and that that is the real, underlying and unspoken dynamic at this point. Up to now, ‘independence’ has been an academic subject, but now that it may be a real possibility, one can hear the sound of velvet gloves, slipping forwards over skin. The NATO U-turn was the first product: Signed, sealed, delivered.

    Usual prefixes:

    heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/we-require-real-political-deterrence-over-trident.19290148

  25. That should be “you’re exploiting” of course… can’t believe I did that.

    More interesting reading.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/nov/01/alex-salmond-scotland-eu-membership

  26. “When did any major English political figure dare to suggest in public that the EU is a good thing? ”

    All the bloody time. In Scotland the English parties Unionists continuously batter away at the idea that an independent Scotland would be ejected from the EU. Unstated assumption: and that would be a Bad Thing and you should be really, really afraid.

    I’m not convinced. You’ve posted before on the wonders of the EU but I think you are moved by the original lofty intentions (an end to war and poverty!), not the familiar gangster show it has become. It’s just Westminster writ large, and bigger salaries too. Don’t be tempted by Tory opposition to the EU to think that such opinions are the province of the loony right, ergo wrong. The loony left (of which I am a cheerful member) is of the same view, albeit for rather different reasons.

    If the Spaniard you refer to is Viviane Reding, then you should note that her comments were concerning the position of Catalonia in the event of UDI, that is a separation not negotiated with Madrid. Scotland is pursuing a separation negotiated with London: different thing, presumably different rules.

    A worrying development is the possibility that a requirement of the independence referendum will be that EU membership is negotiated by the Scottish government instead of being put to the people in a subsequent referendum. It’s uncertain, but certainly plausible. We know the EU is very uncomfortable with ordinary people being asked if they want to join since the silly buggers so often get the answer wrong.

    tinyurl.com/cxwek5q

    tinyurl.com/ctmdeb8

  27. yes, and I remember rightly, Siemens, is also a competitor of Craig’s in Ghana, what a coincidence, lets see what the forum can drag up eh, so much easier. Cue Phil.

  28. @Suhayl

    “The NATO U-turn was the first product”

    No, just the latest. Earlier and at least as significant is the refusal to institute an enquiry into the conviction of Abdelbaset al-Megrahi. Whole horrible can of worms there – an ‘institutionally corrupt judiciary’ is the mildest description I’ve seen. A legislature and judiciary directed by the CIA might be nearer the mark.

    tinyurl.com/cu7e99s

  29. I should be interested to know if Alex Salmond and the SNP would do anything about releasing documents on the Dunblane shootings. There is a big scandal there. I did not know that Thomas Hamilton allegedly shot himself with a different gun from the one used on children and teachers. I was not aware either that there had been no inquest into his death.

    http://www.tpuc.org/node/34

  30. Boring.boring.

  31. Nevermind 1 Nov, 2012 – 6:49 pm
    “If in doubt, Phil blame a Kraut”

    Anti-German sentiment has nothing to do with my point. As I said:

    A choice between those two unions is unimaginative – both will result in just another NATO member with a corrupt political class.

    The problem of which union to join is not really the problem.

    The Siemens example was my attempt to use a business, already mentioned, to identify one of our real problems – the murderous rule of big business.

    EU or GB? Who the fuck cares. They are the same fish in matters that matter.

  32. “I should be interested to know if Alex Salmond and the SNP would do anything about releasing documents on the Dunblane shootings.”

    No, absolutely not (how seldom you get a simple answer on a blog). I’m dismayed that every day it seems another of the absurd fancies appearing on the aangirfan blog turns out to be true. Can you get Cynicism Fatigue?

  33. Komodo agree and we can examine this further. Michael Wright, to me the ‘special relationship’ is about nuclear deterrent and the support of US global priorities, period; effectively Britain is shackled to American hegemony. Those who populate the upper echelons of American administration are only tied up in knots with UNSC sustainer votes that command superiority for their NATO killing machine(s).

  34. English Knight

    1 Nov, 2012 - 7:41 pm

    The real question is whether the Scots can break free from the deeply hidden forces (that are scratching each others backs – ask Esther Rantzen) that got lezi Bouden to raise the Savile Newsnight episode bar so high. The same devils who spent £2b bombing gaddafy and will soon conspire to lead the Union into a great war against Iran.

  35. Quite right too.

    Greek bank list editor Costas Vaxevanis acquitte
    dThe BBC’s Mark Lowen asks Costas Vaxevanis why he published the list

    Greek crisis
    Greeks hear call of soil and sky
    Can new government survive?
    Greek austerity targets
    Mason: Challenges ahead

    Greek journalist Costas Vaxevanis has been acquitted of breach of privacy after publishing the names of 2,000 Greeks with Swiss bank accounts.

    He had been accused of breaking private data rules and faced up to two years in prison if convicted.

    But Judge Malia Volika said the court in Athens “has ruled that you are innocent”.

    Mr Vaxevanis, 46, published the list in Hot Doc, the weekly magazine that he edits.

    He had said that those who should be in prison were the politicians who had covered up potential tax evasion.
    /..
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20172516#

  36. @Nevermind…Siemens was never a competitor of Craig in Ghana…in fact the power plant built in Ghana used Siemens Gas/Diesel turbines made by Siemens in Lincoln..a fact of which saved a large amount of jobs with the UK branch of Siemens, a factor that Craig was very aware of.
    I know this as I built the power plant ! I enjoy reading your comments, but try to get your facts straight mate.

  37. Oh and by the way…fess up all of you whom attempted to calculate the new spam filter and got it wrong !

  38. tapping in to a bottomless well of English atavism“.

    I know the colour of this blog’s prose is often purple, but too much purple is…too much!

    The English have already kept the UK out of Schengen and the Euro.

    As if there’s no ‘Scottish’ money in the City of London! (I won’t harp on about how many Scots there have been in official UK ‘governments’, because only a fool thinks politicians run the show.)

    On my advice a company here in Ghana is now buying tens of millions of pounds of manufactured equipment from Sweden, switching source from the UK, because the weak Euro gives much better value for money)

    How do you work this one out, given that Sweden isn’t in the eurozone? Does the supplier in Sweden flog its stuff for euros, or what? (Edit: OK, so yes – the German multinational Siemens is profiting from selling goods in one country priced in another country’s currency. Which of course helps destabilise things for working class people in Sweden. Mind you, the interests in Ghana probably aren’t paying with money from Ghanaian bank accounts either.)

    But for all this line you’re taking against ‘the English’ (who was it who mentioned atavism?), you omit to mention the reason why the UK isn’t in the eurozone. That’s because of the country’s much stronger links with the US. And the US itself is controlled by a group which keeps its own little fascist ‘sovereign’ state elsewhere.

    The line that the UK government ‘stands up’ to Europe, deciding its own independent line, etc., is just hogwash for the punters. It always makes me laugh, when the UK gets deeper into trouble because it’s not in the eurozone, that the British media talk about British ministers striding into meetings on the Continent to tell the fuzzy-wuzzies what’s what.

    Meanwhile, the SNP is pro-NATO. Let’s spell it out. That means they want to keep Scotland under the US nuclear umbrella. That means they won’t ban US nuclear warheads from Scottish ports.

    Indeed, they are also pro-UK: pro-sterling, pro-BBC, pro the British monarch.

    Never mind the flaming Battle of Bannockburn, so beloved of idiotic freemasons. Scottish nationalism was talked up in the early 1970s, as a way to move workers’ militancy out of the picture.

    Look at the second 1974 election. Later in the 1989 Euro elections, the Green Party was also talked up – and won 15% of the vote. Later still, hello UKIP. Politics is public relations. Markets are created. It’s like with publishing. The promoters latch on to what’s in people’s heads, take control of it, and make people think they’re free agents. In the Scottish case, it was ‘Scottishness’.

    Of course Scottish nationalism is xenophobic. All nationalism is. That’s why some Scottish nationalists put signs on their car saying ‘Ecosse’. A classic case of protesting too much.

    Nationalism was also talked up at the same time, in the early 1970s, in South Wales – and, with terrible consequences, in Northern Ireland. In the immediately preceding years, there had been large-scale radical efforts in those countries – notable in Glasgow, in the Welsh Valleys, and in Derry/Londonderry. Those all went down the drain to the sound of nationalist pipers.

    Then later, the Hollywood film ‘Braveheart’ had a bloody lot to answer for.

    The SNP are taking people in Scotland for idiots. They aren’t even defining what ‘independence’ means, other than that people watching the telly will hear the voices refer to “the government” rather than “the Scottish government”. They wore their stupid white roses, but they support the existing monarchy! Surely some mistake! But not if you have contempt for your audience, as almost all politicians and other entertainers do.

    Except that Billy Connolly is right when he says the SNP are whipping up anti-English feeling. In a lot of Scotland, racism against the English (and in fact, not just the English), is allowed and encouraged and out in the open.

    Scotland has never been a land of opportunity. You must know that, Craig. If it is, why aren’t you there? It’s the opposite.

    In a country where almost all of the administration are vile hypocritical freemasons (and yes they are), there are huge numbers of chips on shoulders. Many Scots in Scotland will always see an English person’s ‘Englishness’ first, and then once they’ve weighed the person up for having this supposed great fault, or lack of good fortune, or whatever it is, they might say the English person is OK and not like the others. Which in England is the sort of attitude that is typically shown by anti-black or anti-Asian racists who when someone comes along who is black or Asian, that’s always, for the white twit, what’s most important for them at first.

    I’m not saying all Scottish people in Scotland are like that. They certainly aren’t. But quite a lot will tolerate those racist morons who are, and the same is also true, perhaps even to a worse degree, in parts of Wales.

    And now we have the perhaps unique state of affairs where the polls in England are showing a majority in favour of Scottish independence, and the polls in Scotland are showing a majority against! This is the disgusting position that Scottish nationalists have created…

    …very probably in a cosy relationship with ‘English’ Tories, whom of course they helped win the general election in 1979 by bringing down the Labour government.

    This isn’t an ‘adult’ ‘debate’. Sorry. The SNP are a bunch of buffoons. You do know that Salmond’s background was an oil ‘economist’ for the Royal Bank of Scotland, right?

    They haven’t even said who’d they’d give Scottish citizenship to The biggest non-Scottish group in Scotland is probably the English – people born in England, who may have lived in Scotland for decades. Are they going to get citizenship or not?

    You might think it’s funny to blame the English for everything, Craig, but I can tell you that most English people in Scotland will give a lot of importance to the question as to whether they will be denied citizenship and classes as foreign nationals in the country where they live.

    And if so, under what conditions might they be ‘given’ citizenship? Or perhaps they expect to be the target of the despicable policy in Latvia, which denied citizenship to about 40% of the population, i.e. all Russians who didn’t want to demean themselves by dressing up in recently-invented national Latvian costume and reciting poems from 10 leading Latvian poets, or whatever the vile test involved.

    The SNP are a right bunch of Norman Tebbits in this connection.

    The hell with nationalism; the hell with national identity. Turn off the telly, and stop blaming the ‘English’ and the ‘Pakis’.

    Point the finger where it should be pointed – at the global ruling class of money-grabbing big businessmen, who own the corrupt regimes in the UK, in England, in Scotland, in the US, in Russia, etc. etc.

    I shall cheerfully blame the English for everything, under any circumstances!

    You say a lot that’s sensible, Craig. But here you’re being a bloody silly sod.

  39. Salmond’s never been one for rushing his fences. So far, he’s shut the ultra-Scots Nats up by delivering on stated and planned stages. The next one is the hardest. It has to be capable of being called independence, BUT it need not be quite what Siol nan Gaidheal have in mind. From then on, it will be capable of further modification. Until then, Salmond is wise not to close down too many options, or sources of national income either. So right now I don’t see a dichotomy; an independent Scotland should retain the pound and anything else it can hang onto from the Union, while working its way into a favourable trading relationship in Europe.

    Trouble is, these plans were laid long ago, and with an eye on Eire’s European experience – subsidies hand over fist from seemingly bottomless wells of money. Now look at the place.

  40. I got a bit stuck on this one Frazer.

    e2yz + zx − 5xy = 2
    yz − zx + 2xy = 1
    yz − 2zx + 6xy = 3.

    Do they get harder the more you solve?

  41. Dick the Prick

    1 Nov, 2012 - 8:29 pm

    Not wanting to disavow a perfectly reasonable rant but wasn’t the Son of the Manse able to do whatever the fuck he wanted for 11 or 12 years?

  42. Pure as the driven snow. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens

    See Controversies

    2007 price fixing fine

    In January 2007 Siemens was fined €396 million by the European Commission for price fixing in EU electricity markets through a cartel involving 11 companies, among which ABB, Alstom, Fuji, Hitachi Japan, AE Power Systems, Mitsubishi Electric Corp, Schneider, Areva, Toshiba and VA Tech……….

    Bribery case

    Siemens agreed to pay a record $1.34 billion in fines in December 2008 after being investigated for serious bribery. The investigation found questionable payments of roughly €1.3 billion, from 2002 to 2006 that triggered a broad range of inquiries in Germany, the United States and many other countries……

    Iran telecoms controversy

    Nokia Siemens supplied telecommunications equipment to the Iranian telecom company that included the ability to intercept and monitor telecommunications, a facility known as “lawful intercept”…….

    Greek bribes, greek metro and traffic lights controversy

    See also: 2008 Siemens scandal

    Siemens has been accused of bribing Greek officials……..

  43. I’m being a bit sneaky there because I forgot to add

    xyz = ±6

    And you need to find the values of x y and z

    And the e in the first line of the equation shouldn’t be there (it was a typo).

  44. @N..nice argument, yet you are perhaps David Cameron in disguise ??
    I assure you that when we get independance, we will not demand that every English person living in Scotland dress in our national dress and perform a rite of passage by drinking a single malt at every pub on Roe Street to prove thier right to continue living in Scotland.
    Billy Connoly has never said that the Scottish are whipping up ante English feeling, I know this as I know his wife quite well and they have never said anything to me !
    Anyone, whatever nationality, race or creed are welcome to live in Scotland, we as Scots do not judge a person by thier origin, in fact the EDL tried to open a branch in Edinburgh a few years ago and were laghued out of court…Scotland has the highest paid teachers,doctors,police, fire brigade and the best functioning NHS in the whole country..fact..investment in Scotland is 30% above the national average for the UK and we are justly proud of this. Yes we do have our faults, but when we gain Independance we will build a strong country on our on sweat and vision….By the way, did not like the “Paki” comment….some of the nicest people I know come from Pakistan.


  45. @Jon Goss…I am now going to bed having braced myself with Einstiens Theory of Relativity, but it still comes out as 42 !

  46. Frazer, not worth arguing with the superficially informed. Or those who know fuck all and don’t wish to learn.

    All these questions of overseas entanglements and alliances are not the SNP’s to decide, far less the current first minister’s.

    They are for the people of an Independent Scotland, and no-one else. First, let’s break free.

  47. Frazer 1 Nov, 2012 – 8:45 pm
    “Billy Connoly has never said that the Scottish are whipping up ante English feeling, I know this as I know his wife quite well and they have never said anything to me”

    Pam is seemingly failing to keep you up to date with everything Billy says:

    http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Billy+Connolly+Scottish+anti+English

  48. Frazer I think Douglas Adams solution is as good as any. I certainly have no idea why all that money was wasted on the Hadron collider which hasn’t come up with anything. And it’s better than simultaneous equations that can’t be solved. Sleep on that mate.

  49. Donald 1 Nov, 2012 – 8:58 pm
    “All these questions of overseas entanglements and alliances are not the SNP’s to decide, far less the current first minister’s. They are for the people of an Independent Scotland, and no-one else. First, let’s break free.”

    The ‘independence’ you are being offered is not even a change of ownership. Just a change of strip.

  50. Of course, Cameron was doing deals with his pal Salmond recently.
    http://www.thedailystar.net/photo/2012/10/16/2012-10-16__int02.jpg

    You can bet Trident 2 will be gliding in and out of Holy Loch in due course and TonTon Trump and his cronies will be enjoying golf on the present sand dunes at Menie. No words for these parasites in our fair lands.

    {http://www.trumpgolfscotland.com/}

  51. “When did any major English political figure dare to suggest in public that the EU is a good thing?”

    Yesterday (Nick Clegg).

  52. Yes MJ at length, using all the neuro-linguistic skills that he has been taught. Even questions were answered with hundreds of words when a dozen would have sufficed. What a hollow man.

    http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2012/11/01/nick-clegg-eu-budget-speech-in-full

    3604 words!

  53. Oh Phil, ffs. Independence is independence. You can do with it what you will. Anything else is not independence. Independence is the freedom to say yes, or to say no.

    I trust the Scots to make their own decisions once they have independence. Without independence the Scots will forever be led by the fainthearted ignoramuses of the Home (?) Counties.

  54. They haven’t even said who’d they’d give Scottish citizenship to The biggest non-Scottish group in Scotland is probably the English – people born in England, who may have lived in Scotland for decades. Are they going to get citizenship or not?

    As an Englishman who lived in Scotland for 30 or so years, I was always given to understand even by nationalist hardliners that I could be a citizen if I chose to remain after independence. This would come as a relief to the English rat-race refugees who have sent property prices through the roof in the idyllic areas in which they have chosen to live.

    Though dual-nationality might not be so freely available, obviously. They’ll have to choose.

  55. @Mary: Considering the fact that the greek officials are more corrupt than their politicians bribery is the only way to actually get a job there. I’d blame Siemens for many things, but not bribery in greece.
    It would probably be a mercy to the population if the EU invaded and made greece a colony or something. Much worse than their own government ain’t possible. Right now they’re a Banana republic already.

  56. I shall keep it simple, because it matters. Siemens is as much a crooked multinational as much as, come on Mary, you can do it for at least ten other companies which are not German, its the fact that the globalisation talks of the 80’s, 90’s and the last ten years, have resulted in powerful accounting blocks, Multinationals, sheer giants, in tune and up to date, with daily movements in billions, stock market operators of magnitude, in the case of Siemens based on a firm that has grown from small to become supranational and led by outside influences, a vast plethora of shareholders, not just that of German interests…. oh what the fuck do I care….burn burn burn

    I think that the debate in the House of Commons was predicted by the German Government, clear as glass and as hard is the response.
    Mr. Bond, wear your asbestos pants, its going to get hot. If Britain minority geezers do not want to play socially responsible, it must feel like a scratchy jumper to those fed on bent bananas, they have to join the second rank and face the consequences of a restricted market. Just to translate this, it means bleeding, shot and foot.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/uk-vote-could-spark-major-eu-budget-row-a-864693.html

  57. I saw flags outside of the UN building.
    All independent proud nations
    There was no scottish flag. They are kept with the Micky Mouse ones.
    Is pride too expensive

  58. Mary,

    Reliable information confirms Siemans were paid $millions for confidential SCADA codes and more necessary to construct the Stuxnet worm that targeted Iran’s high speed centrifuges that separate the radioactive uranium isotope necessary for nuclear fission.

    The programming logic for the worm was written by American NSA software engineers from raw information supplied by the Idaho National Laboratory, Microsoft and detailed execution codes from Siemans. The finished malware was tested at the Dimona nuclear establishment by Israeli nuclear control technicians, placed on a USB stick and secreted into Bushehr Nuclear Power Plant computer network by enticement.

  59. ‘If the Spaniard you refer to is Viviane Reding, then you should note that her comments were concerning the position of Catalonia in the event of UDI, that is a separation not negotiated with Madrid. Scotland is pursuing a separation negotiated with London: different thing, presumably different rules.’

    Presumably my arse! Whether an existing EU state splits as a result of negotiation between the respective parties, or as a result of a Kosovo style UDI is neither here nor there as far as the Eurocrats are concerned. They will do all in their power to prevent the Scottish precedent (if it comes about)from being followed by either Catalonia or Flanders. The most effective way of acheiving this would be by not granting successor state status to the new entity.Scotland, Catalonia & Flanders, as independent states, will therefore likely find themselves rubbing shoulders with Turkey in the EU waiting room.

  60. tories want out of EU so that we can continue to torture abuse and of course so that the human rights laws can be dropped.
    .
    blair clearly stated that uk was to be americas newest acquisition .. and if you follow our laws, (and EU for that matter) homeland security and foreign policy we are moving in step with the usa just as we are in our movement from welfare state towards privatisation and authoritarian state.
    .
    our americanisation is real deliberate policy. all that is left to happen is false flag or that iran war that israel is promising.

  61. Get rid of the all pervasive Freemasons,old bloodlines and vested interests in Scotland and it might stand a chance.

    Mind you,you could say the same of the UK generally.

    Until then we’re all prisoners to the craft cabal.

    I’m Scottish btw – well insofar as i was told i was by birth,i didn’t seem to have much of a say in matters.Same everywhere i guess..

  62. ‘the Euro…which it would be great to be in’

    The Greek, Spanish and Portuguese governments all agree that it is so ‘great’ to be in the Euro that they regard unemployment rates of more than 20% as acceptable prices to pay.

    Interestingly,the SNP do not propose to join the Euro if Scotland becomes independent.

  63. commentor 423212

    2 Nov, 2012 - 5:00 am

    “When did any major English political figure dare to suggest in public that the EU is a good thing? ”

    The author conveniently forgets the huge proportion of Scottish nationals that have dominated UK party politics over the last 15 years, some of whom have actually led the country (into a total mess).

    Scots are just as capable of corrupt, inept government as anyone else. In fact, seeing as the majority are from the ‘funny handshake brigade’ I would expect the problem to be much worse in a future independent Scotland.

  64. English Knight

    2 Nov, 2012 - 5:01 am

    There is an easy way for the Scots to break free from the Homo counties, someone simply has to waterboard lezi Bouden to reveal the forces that got her to place the high bar on the Savile Newsnight episode. Once Ted Heaths fellow copros and necros (with the dead giveaway jinn stuck in their voice boxes), and their maxwell fellow devils, are out in the open, it shouldnt take much for a resounding YES vote in the referendum.

  65. commentor 423212

    2 Nov, 2012 - 5:08 am

    Something I never see discussed is the constitutional role of the Monarch in an independent Scotland, will they still have an English head of state (quasi-independence)?

  66. James Chater

    2 Nov, 2012 - 5:25 am

    The euro could have been a good idea if it had been restricted to the few countries which were able to comply with the requirements and conditions orginally agreed and later flouted: Germany, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and very few others. The other members – Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece and I fear even France – are in breach of the conditions and their continued membership puts the currency in danger. Eventually I believe Greece, Portugal and Spain will have to leave the euro, as there is no way they can pay their debts. Of course Merkel is desperate that this should not happen: she does not want the southern countries to compete with Germany with an export-led recovery.
    As it turns out, the whole Euro project was so badly run that the UK did well to stay out.

  67. “The most effective way of acheiving this would be by not granting successor state status to the new entity.Scotland”

    You see, it’s supposed to be a threat, and reduce us all to fear and trembling. Wot? We won’t be in the good old EU anymore? Gosh, how awful! But I am one of many who would be delighted with this outcome. Suggest you try a different threat. Why do I keep getting reminded of Brer Rabbit and the briar patch?

    “I don’t care what you do with me, Brer Fox, says he, “Just so you don’t fling me in that briar patch. Roast me, Brer Fox,” says he, “But don’t fling me in that briar patch.”
    “It’s so much trouble to kindle a fire,” says Brer Fox, says he, “that I expect I’d better hang you,” says he.
    “Hang me just as high as you please, Brer Fox, says Brer Rabbit, “but for the Lord’s sake, don’t fling me in that briar patch,” says he.
    “I don’t have any string, ” says Brer Fox, “Now I expect I had better drown you, ” says he.
    “Drown me just as deep as you please, Brer Fox,” says Brer Rabbit, “But please do not fling me in that briar patch, ” says he.
    “There’s no water near here,” says Brer Fox, says he, “And now I reckon I’d better skin you.”
    “Skin me Brer Fox,” says he. “Snatch out my eyeballs, tear out my ears by the roots,” says he, “But please, Brer Fox, don’t fling me in that briar patch, ” says he.
    Of course, Brer Fox wanted to get Brer Rabbit as bad as he could, so he caught him by the behind legs and slung him right in the middle of the briar patch. There was a considerable flutter when Brer Rabbit struck the bushes, and Brer Fox hung around to see what was going to happen.
    By and by he heard someone call his name and ‘way up on the hill he saw Brer Rabbit sitting cross-legged on a chinquapin log combing the tar pitch out of his hair with a chip. Then Brer Fox knew he had been tricked.
    Brer Rabbit hollered out, “Born and bred in the briar patch. I was born and bred in the briar patch!” And with that he skipped out just as lively as a cricket in the embers of a fire.

  68. I have nothing whatsoever against Scottish independence, but will it bring an end to all the incumbents in Downing Street with Scottich names? The list of PM’s with Scottish backgrounds or Scottish names is incredible. Cameron, Brown, Blair, Douglas-Home, and Macmillan are four out of a just a dozen PM’s since WW11. To put it into perspective Scotland’s population is around five and a quarter million, whereas the estimated population of England is fifty million.

    There’ll be a lot of unemployed prime ministers about come Independence Day.

  69. ‘Wot? We won’t be in the good old EU anymore? Gosh, how awful! But I am one of many who would be delighted with this outcome.’

    Glad to hear it Vronsky. An independent Scotland would almost certainly be denied full membership of the EU at the outset as a ‘successor state’, but throwing it out of the EEA at the same time would be more difficult. As an independent state within the EEA Scotland should be able to cut a deal similar to that enjoyed by Norway. Such an arrangement would allow the Scots to regain control of their own fisheries- much to the benefit of Salmond’s own heartland in the North-East of the country. Why the hell he wants full membership of the EU (& now NATO as well)is mystifying.

  70. Nevermind 1 Nov, 2012 – 11:32 pm
    “Siemens is as much a crooked multinational…you can do it for at least ten other companies which are not German”

    Ten? Try just about every one of them. Big business does not give a fig about national pride (except to manipulate you). They will avoid tax, pay low wages, arm, pollute etc wherever there is profit.

    To care if your politicians are in Edinburgh, Brussels, London or Berlin is to misunderstand who owns us.

  71. English Knight

    2 Nov, 2012 - 9:12 am

    @Brian Hemming – Bwahahahahhaha, Cameron is as much Scottish as was the Lithuanian jew FC Malcom Rifkind MP for Edinburgh Pentlands 1974-1997 !! You deserve lifelong free meals at the Sum Dum Goy chinese takeaway !

  72. Siemens:
    http://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/si/institutional-holdings

    Some familiar faceless megacos there. Not German, either.

  73. @Komodo

    me: “They haven’t even said who’d they’d give Scottish citizenship to The biggest non-Scottish group in Scotland is probably the English – people born in England, who may have lived in Scotland for decades. Are they going to get citizenship or not?

    you: “As an Englishman who lived in Scotland for 30 or so years, I was always given to understand even by nationalist hardliners that I could be a citizen if I chose to remain after independence. This would come as a relief to the English rat-race refugees who have sent property prices through the roof in the idyllic areas in which they have chosen to live.

    Yes, I’ve been told the same verbally by SNP hacks. They will say whatever you want to hear, to get you to vote for them. That’s because they’re politicians. There are hundreds of thousands of English people in Scotland.

    The fact is, the SNP have never had the policy you refer to.

    They have never had any policy whatsoever on who will be given citizenship. Bit of a lacuna, I reckon.

    Like most Scottish nationalists, whether they are in the SNP or not, they hate people who come from England planning to live in Scotland temporarily. Why? Well part of it is that they get Scottish nationality rammed down their throats on the TV, in advertising, etc. Everything’s ‘Scottish’ this or that, in Scotland. The other part of it is envy.

    I’ve never met a Scottish nationalist who doesn’t agree with imposing a version of Norman Tebbit’s ‘cricket test’.

    For those who don’t remember, this was a test proposed by a former Tory cabinet minister which immigrants to the UK would have to pass in order to be allowed to stay here. The idea was that they should be culturally assimilated to the point of cheering on the English cricket team when it plays Pakistan.

    Of course Tebbit was forgetting that England is not the same as the UK, and that few people play cricket in parts of the UK that aren’t England.

    Anyway, all the Scottish nationalists I have ever spoken to about the matter, who fall over themselves to show they’re not racist, say that immigrants are welcome in Scotland so long as they become ‘new Scots’. They also support whatever sport team is playing against England, even if otherwise they don’t give a damn about sport.

    A friend of mine who was a Scot of Pakistani origin in Glasgow once told me that he was glad that Pakistan had beaten England at some sport or other because “then everyone’s happy”. (Incidentally, he ran a small shop and was talking about the views of his customers; he himself couldn’t give a damn about sport or nationalism, any more than I could.)

    “Though dual-nationality might not be so freely available, obviously. They’ll have to choose.”

    There’s no ‘obviously’ about it. Please think it out some more.

    1) If a Scottish government decides to grant Scottish citizenship to English residents in Scotland only on condition that they renounce their UK citizenship, some are going to want to return to England right away. These will include those who envisage returning to England at some point in their futures (just as many Scots in England envisage returning to Scotland), but who do not want to be reclassified as ‘foreigners’ for several years in the country where they are living. Who’s going to do their jobs?

    ‘The hell with them’, some Scottish nationalists would say, ‘At least we might be able to buy their houses cheap’.

    2) Think about all the Scottish people in Scotland who envisage living and working in England at some point in their lives. They’d be right pissed off with such a policy too, wouldn’t they, if they were treated as foreign immigrants every time they went to England, having to fill in special forms to be able to be treated by the NHS, having to make sure their car insurance covered them for going abroad, having to undergo security checks at Coldstream as if it were Dover?

    I think you will find that most Scottish people in Scotland would want to keep UK citizenship, just as most people in Northern Ireland do (whether Protestant, Catholic, or neither).

    Can you think of a single advantage to a Scottish person from Scotland in being counted as a foreign national every time they went to England?

    This is why the SNP doesn’t raise the issue of citizenship – it would lose them lots of votes.

    3) What is going to happen to Scots living in England? If a Scottish government refused citizenshp to any UK citizen in Scotland who didn’t renounce UK citizenship (and as I’ve said, this will include a lot of Scottish people as well as English, Welsh, and Irish people), can you tell me one reason why the English government shouldn’t retaliate, by themselves forcing Scottish residents in the UK to choose between the two citizenships?

    Who wants this crap? I certainly don’t!

    (Also be aware that at the moment, renunciation of UK citizenship is usually reversible, without telling the authorities of any other state.)

    I dearly hope Scotland does not go independent, because it will worsen things for most people living in Scotland and England. Scotland would be likely to be cut adrift by bankers and ratings agencies before England (tell me one economist who isn’t a Scottish nationalist who says otherwise), and apart from that, both countries could easily be envisaged to get permanent Tory governments (in Scotland under the SNP, a near-equivalent of the English Tory party). In the event that it does go independent, most Scottish people will soon rue the day.

  74. Just to make a point more clearly: what is going to happen to ‘Scots abroad’? And why shouldn’t a Scottish government insist that they renounce citizenship where they’re living as a condition of getting Scottish citizenship, just as Scots living in Scotland would have to? Call that the ‘WEST SURREY QUESTION’.

    You say a ban on dual citizenship is ‘obvious’, but the ramifications of it don’t seem to be that ‘obvious’ to you!

    This is why, Komodo my friend, you and everyone else with a personal interest in the Scottish referendum should ask the question very clearly: what is the proposal on citizenship?

    If you don’t get an answer, or the answer is ‘let’s discuss that after independence’, then vote against independence.

    Actually I think a large proportion of the Scottish population will completely agree with me, unless their minds are full of TV characters dressed up like the Norman French lord Robert the Bruce or the Welsh lord William Wallace when polling day approaches! :-)

  75. PS The Blair Charitable Trust is nothing to do with Bliar as far as I know.

    http://www.charitiesdirect.com/charities/blair-charitable-trust-xx15268.html

  76. @ Komodo “an independent Scotland should retain the pound“.

    Please realise that would not be a choice for the Scottish government alone.

    When the SNP implies it would be, I have to wonder how stupid they take Scottish people to be.

    @Frazer

    N..nice argument, yet you are perhaps David Cameron in disguise ??

    Can’t you argue your case without making such silly jibes?

    I assure you that when we get independance, we will not demand that every English person living in Scotland dress in our national dress and perform a rite of passage by drinking a single malt at every pub on Roe Street to prove thier right to continue living in Scotland.

    When you say “we”, you mean rich businessmen like yourself?

    Billy Connoly has never said that the Scottish are whipping up ante English feeling, I know this as I know his wife quite well and they have never said anything to me !

    He said Scottish nationalists are, not ‘the Scottish’. For goodness sake, try to read what I say before you scoff at it.

    Just because you didn’t know something, doesn’t make it untrue.

    Two minutes checking on the internet would have allowed you to confirm what I said: click here before apologising.

    Anyone, whatever nationality, race or creed are welcome to live in Scotland, we as Scots do not judge a person by thier origin, in fact the EDL tried to open a branch in Edinburgh a few years ago and were laghued out of court

    Don’t be silly. Of course some Scots are racists, just as some English people are, etc. etc. And of course the SNP aren’t proposing an open borders policy. Your knee’s jerking, mate.

    As for the EDL, well you’re wrong on the details, but yes they did get humiliated in Edinburgh. Meanwhile, the BNP has many branches in Scotland, as do various Scottish-themed racist groups. (A Scots Gaelic-speaking friend was once violently hassled by Scottish racists who thought from the language he was speaking that he was Irish. They hated the Irish! Shows how much the idiots knew about ‘Scottish history’!!!)

    @Donald “Frazer, not worth arguing with the superficially informed. Or those who know fuck all and don’t wish to learn.

    Ha ha! You could learn a lot from my post. If you wish to teach me anything or show me anything I got wrong, or only got superficially, I am all ears. The floor is yours.

  77. That list does not include the Trump holding at Menie.

    Look at Trump, a Trump Jnr and George Sorial on the video plus Ivanka Trump and Eric Trump. So many Trumps. They see no irony in what they have done to the beautiful unspoilt landscape and the living dunes. Perhaps we could ask the creator to send a Superstorm Sandy in to the shores at Menie and the dunes will reform.

    http://www.trumpgolfscotland.com/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&PageId=278788&ssid=153035&vnf=1

    “What we believe in” – one of the sons. What do they believe in? A. The dollar and downing the rest. What chutzpah over sacrilege. These people pollute everything. Brazen about the likely ‘covenants’.

  78. Actually, N_, there’s a lot of controversy about the dual citizenship issue. More than I’d thought, in fact, as the post-devolution picture has changed. But I’m sure it will be resolved as amicably as, say, British citizenship (in which dual nationality is relatively rare, but not a problem) is. I don’t think, for instance, that English-owned land will be expropriated, and half the English herded into a ghetto surrounding Cumbernauld (the Israeli model). Being born in Scotland or having registered one’s Scottish citizenship prior to going abroad will take care of most of the Scots-abroad issue, I guess.

    But speculation is pointless. The vote is for independence or not: the rest is for the Scots to sort out as democratically as possible, given a “yes” vote. The terms and conditions come later, and will need to involve another referendum or electoral test. They will obviously depend on the degree to which the various political actors can be made to agree after, and in the light of a “yes” vote.

    I’m seeing a lot of scaremongering here. You’re perfectly happy with legislative independence under the Crown for the Isle of Man or Jersey. Or indeed the Falklands. Get a grip.

  79. And another thing – if an English person living in Scotland opposes Scottish independence, how many Scottish pro-independence people think

    a) “that bloke’s only taking that view because he’s English”,

    and how many think

    b) “that bloke disagrees with us about what’s best for most people in Scotland”?

    95% of pro-independence Scottish people think it’s a), i.e. they are racist about it, and their racism befuddles their minds.

    Quite a lot of anti-independence people (such as most of my Scottish neighbours, for instance) have got the sense to know it’s far more likely to be b).

  80. @Komodo

    Actually, N_, there’s a lot of controversy about the dual citizenship issue. More than I’d thought, in fact, as the post-devolution picture has changed. But I’m sure it will be resolved as amicably as, say, British citizenship (in which dual nationality is relatively rare, but not a problem) is.

    You are not dealing with the specifics I raised, including the position of the millions of Scottish people living in England, and the hundreds of thousands of English people living in Scotland.

    If something called Scottish citizenship does come into existence, then I believe that most UK citizens who are Scottish, or who are living in Scotland, will want to keep their UK citizenship as well as have Scottish citizenship.

    (Out of those posting here who believe they would be offered Scottish citizenship, is anyone willing to say they’d give up their UK citizenship? And would they renounce their UK citizenship by choice, or would they only do so if relinquishing UK citizenship was a requirement for getting Scottish citizenship? Are they sure they wouldn’t try to keep UK citizenship on the quiet?)

    I don’t think, for instance, that English-owned land will be expropriated, and half the English herded into a ghetto surrounding Cumbernauld (the Israeli model). Being born in Scotland or having registered one’s Scottish citizenship prior to going abroad will take care of most of the Scots-abroad issue, I guess.

    But speculation is pointless. The vote is for independence or not: the rest is for the Scots to sort out as democratically as possible, given a “yes” vote.

    Speculation is not pointless for those who, if there’s NOT independence, WON’T be reclassified as foreigners in the country where they live, but who, if there IS independence, MAY be reclassified in that way!

    The terms and conditions come later, and will need to involve another referendum or electoral test.

    Then you are voting for or against a word.

    I’m seeing a lot of scaremongering here. You’re perfectly happy with legislative independence under the Crown for the Isle of Man or Jersey. Or indeed the Falklands. Get a grip.

    I don’t have any personal connections with those places, as I do with Scotland, and in any case, none of those three places is independent.

    Do you realise now how it is important to know what is meant by ‘independence’??

  81. Independence indeed! Its a complete circus for the brainwashed masses. The internationalists have already decided the outcomes that they planned many many years ago, which is nothing less than total global control of all land people and resources. Salmond is just the vehicle that they use to justify it to the indoctrinated. Gradualism will take us to a totalitarian hell eventually, unless the people waken the f up!

  82. I am a UK citizen living in Scotland. I want to remain a UK citizen. If it comes about that I will need to have Scottish citizenship in order to be something other than a ‘foreigner’ in the country I live in (Scotland), then I want to be guaranteed that I will get that citizenship as well as my UK citizenship.

    The ‘independence’ side cannot guarantee what I want. The anti-‘independence’ side can, and therefore they get my vote.

    And by the way, I happen to be Scottish. If anyone tells me that because I hold the above views I am less of a Scot than they are, they can eff off.

  83. VRONSKY

    What happened at Newsnetscotland. Must have been some comment.

  84. You are not dealing with the specifics….(continues at length in order to bog discussion down in sub-clauses)

    Yes I am. Comprehensively. I’m saying that hostile speculation as to the (potential) technicalities is gratuitous scaremongering. No doubt a lot of research has gone into the issues on all sides already, but only if the Scots agree to independence will any of it become remotely relevant. There will then be a long and tortuous process to establish the parameters of independence. And I imagine (having no crystal ball and being unable to see the outcome of that process) that there will then be an election. Which may permit voters to veto or approve the final move to actual independence, on the basis of the candidates’ stated policy on the matter.

    I am much more sympathetic to Malcolm P’s point, but if the K is no longer U, what is the point of insisting on UK citizenship? Have you a sentimental attachment to Wales and NI? Sorry to be rude – caught it off N_.

  85. @N
    Actually I am not a rich businessman, but am a rather poor humanitarian aid worker, currently in south sudan !

  86. I’ve reluctantly become a convert to the Scottish Independence cause. It goes against my instincts as an internationalist, but I despair of the Westminster government ever being accountable to the citizens of the U.K. I can only hope that a government elected by a smaller electorate will be less remote from the people, e.g. Iceland.
    I don’t hold out a lot of hope, though.

  87. Its not what Salmond and co talk about, its more about what they wont talk about that concerns me the most!
    When Salmond meets Cameron the mass murderer and doesnt conduct a citizens arrest or take him to task over Bombing Libyans, then I have to say he is as bad as the worst there is.

  88. Regarding antipathy of Scots to the English, both nations should be aware that it is actively encouraged by our MSM.
    For a vivid demonstration of this, anybody travelling across the border on the day of a sporting event between the two countries should read the Sun newspaper on each side. You don’t have to actually buy it, read it in a service station, then mess it up so that nobody else will either.

  89. Maxter.
    I believe Salmond was the only UK leader who didn’t support the Iraq war.

  90. How will those EU immigrants fare who do not hold UK or Scottish citizenship? The rules of Scotland vis a vis the EU surely is as important as the internecine rivalries between clans and sectarians.

    I am a EU citizen who happens to live in Europe, I can’t be fazed with rights which have long lost their meaning, indeed are despised by the majority, British or Scottish, for example voting.

    Unless England get its own Parliament, preferably not an expensive London centric body accumulating vast armies of bureaucrats, all on London wages, this idea of citizenship in England has no meaning. I do not find the rules taken by Scottish N.Irish and Welsh in Parliament, when they haver their own, far more democratic Governing institutions at home, are relevant to the English.

    Democracy has been usurped in any way, so unless somebody suggests to make voting compulsory, or adopts demarchy as an evolutions that disperses with cronism and corruption at every level, this debate has no other consequences than to turn those who believe that they have a say, further away from the process and the system they live in.

    So what will happen to those demanding dual nationality? those landowners unknown, holding large acreages of Scotland as an investment portfolio? what will happen to immigrants in Scotland who feel sidelined by the arguments, affected in some ways by the proposals, but who will, most likely, not have a vote?

    Loch Ness fodder?

  91. @A Node, Yes but he is a lying politician, thats what they do. He knew fine well that it would make good headlines at the time for his persona. At the end of the day he will talk the talk but never walk it, when it comes to betraying the money power that pulls his puppet strings. There is systematic abuse of children by establishment people that Salmond and Macaskill know about, but instead of doing the morally correct thing, they said nothing when the man that highlighted it was given a 1 year jail sentence for breach of the peace.
    The corruption in the Scottish establishment stinks. Lockerbie lies, Dunblane lies ect

  92. Not only did he oppose the Iraq war, but Salmond was one of the four drafters of the parliamentary motion to impeach Blair for his “High Crimes and Misdemeanours in relation to the Invasion of Iraq” in 2004, so maybe he will yet have a go at Cameron….

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeach_Blair_campaign

  93. @Frazer – when you said it was you who built the power plant in Ghana, I assumed you meant you either owned the company that ran its construction or were in charge of the project at the company. If you one of the people who really did build it, i.e. the blue-collar workers, then I apologise unreservedly!

    I still love Corinne Souza’s definition of ‘development aid’ as basically a corporate loyalty scheme, though!

  94. @Maxter
    I agree with you regarding all the examples you mention. However, I am Scottish and I have to make a choice …. Alex Salmond or more of the same.
    At least his lies are socialist and anti-war. I’d rather be lied to by someone who thinks I might like those type of lies than someone who, for example, lies to me offering me opportunities for greed.

  95. Any MP who supported impeaching Blair for war crimes deserves credit where it’s due, so Salmond deserves praise for this, regardless of whatever else he’s done or hasn’t done.

    It is funny, though, how the SNP didn’t take the UK government to court in 1989 over the poll tax, the introduction of which in Scotland was very clearly in violation of the Act of Union.

    To be exact, it violated clause 14, which states that “the kingdom of Scotland (may) be not charged with any other duties laid on by the Parliament of England before the Union, except those consented to in this Treaty“.

    The introduction of the poll tax in Scotland a year before it was introduced in England and Wales was therefore clearly unlawful.

    You’d have thought the SNP could have made some political capital out of that. Especially given the number of Edinburgh lawyers in the party.

    So why didn’t they?

    I’ve always suspected the SNP may be owned by the Tories. There are precedents for this sort of thing. In Austria, the ‘far-right’ Freedom Party was owned by the ‘centre-left’ Social-Democratic Party.

    Thatcher haters, of which I am one, should never forget that the SNP brought down the Labour government in 1979.

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