Palestine 427


I am off to Baghdad on Sunday for an Arab League conference on Palestinian detainees held in Israel. This is part of my determination to devote more of my time to helping the Palestinian cause. It seems to me we are at a crucial point where the Palestinians are in genuine danger of an accelerated genocide, as Israeli intentions to annex Est Jerusalem and the West Bank become ever plainer.

In retrospect, my life has mostly been based on the idea that I may not be able to do much to help in a particular situation, but it is incumbent on me to try. So I am trying.

A “two state” solution has, from the start, been advanced in bad faith by promoters such as Blair and Bush, with the intention always that it would be a Bantustan solution. For those too young to recall, the grand plan of apartheid South Africa was that the black population would be corraled into a number of small regions which would become “independent states”.

I have said before that I am often pleasantly surprised by Sky News security correspondent Sam Kiley, who seems to get away with talking great sense by hiding behind a Ross Kemp style persona. A couple of days ago he reported from the West Bank that Israel was “moving towards an apartheid state”. There is no doubt that is true – even in Israel proper, there are over three hundred ethnically based Israeli laws prescribing different treatment for Jews and others, across almost every activity of the state. I fear Sam Kiley will not be on mainstream TV long – a tendency to tell the truth being career fatal.

Bibi’s desire to kill off the two state solution is a terrible, genocidal threat but strangely also an opportunity. Botha and De Klerk did not succeed, and Bibi may not either. I personally would have deplored a Bantustan based solution, with crammed and split Palestinian lands deprived of resources, water, communications and any hope of economic viability.

The ultimate solution must involve a proper single state in Israel/Palestine which is blind and fair in its laws to race and religion. That solution can ultimately bring security to the people of Israel, not based on their ability to kill or evict their neighbours and steal their land. The essentials of the agreement will have to be most people staying where they are – including most West Bank settlers – and very serious compensation to dispossessed Palestinians, with the settlements enlarged to become mixed communities.

On the Palestinian detainee question, for me it shows up yet again Israel’s extraordinary capacity for shameless sophistry in matters of international law. Israel justifies its naval blockade on the San Remo Convention, which is only applicable in times of armed conflict. Israel states that it is in a de facto permanent armed conflict. However it denies being in an armed conflict when it comes to its treatment of Palestinain detainees, captured outside Israel, who are not treated as prisoners of war. Both positions cannot be held simultaneously, but secure in the collusion of the West’s bought politicians, Israel does so.


427 thoughts on “Palestine

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  • Cryptonym

    I’ll answer it too Munsterman, if I may, is Kempe is avoiding it: No.

    Anyone however can still ignore it, just as they have the right to live in a dream world, ignoring reality, they’re not however going to affect the majority rejecting again incompetent corrupt, conniving morally repugnant misrule by the London party-set cuckoos.

    Scotland has experienced such a scenario in the rigged (40%) late 1970s devolution referendum, where there were, as now, large populations in the small and densely populated central belt, and very few people in the far larger areas, north and south and thus there were regional disparities in the results. The boundaries then were the old Regional Council boundaries, Stratchclyde (by far predominant, and still coshed daily by pro-union lying, scaremongering media) and so on, and as these councils were disbanded long ago, new demarcations will be used, but the regional breakdown of the result will be only be of interest to political anoraks, having no effect on the national outcome. Scotland hasn’t been divided by coercive force since Roman times, when the Zionist’s ancestors still walked the Russian Steppe and washed themselves (we hope) in the Don.

    The Proclaimers once sang: ‘What do you do when democracy’s all through, what do you when minority –means you’. They were referring to a minority (The Scots) within the UK.

    Quite how it’s relevant you haven’t made clear. Is it the pro-Israel minority in Palestine, outnumbered, trying to kill enough people to make themselves the majority, whose misguided misanthropic plight you hold dear? It’s going rather badly I should say. Such dark visions of Israel make apartheid South Africa look enlightened.

  • Fred

    “The Proclaimers once sang: ‘What do you do when democracy’s all through, what do you when minority –means you’. They were referring to a minority (The Scots) within the UK.”

    I was just reading the latest racist incidents stats for Scotland.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20675712

    Up 10% on last year, second highest ethnic group of victims white British.

    Looks like Billy got it right back in 99.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/379935.stm

  • Munsterman

    Cryptonym :

    In the event of a majority of Scots voting for independence in the forthcoming referendum, would the rest of the UK have the right to partition Scotland and keep the regions(s) which voted against independence within the UK – against the wishes of the majority of Scots ?

    Yes or No.
    “…I’ll answer it too Munsterman, if I may, as Kempe is avoiding it:
    No. ”

    Thank you. I would agree totally.

    Kempe had made reference to the Irish situation and I queried him up on on what constitutes occupied territory.

    My point here is that the partition of Ireland was a disaster – and was the result of The British Empire’s strategic interests at play and had nothing to do with democracy, although it has always been touted as such in the British media in order to justify continued British rule in a part of Ireland. You certainly appear to seem to know your history so no point in repeating Irish history to one who already knows.

    “…Quite how it’s relevant you haven’t made clear. Is it the pro-Israel minority in Palestine, outnumbered, trying to kill enough people to make themselves the majority, whose misguided misanthropic plight you hold dear? It’s going rather badly I should say. Such dark visions of Israel make apartheid South Africa look enlightened.”

    You may have picked up on my sentiments incorrectly…..

    I totally agree with your analysis – the current situation is utterly depressing. The US could bring Israel in line immediately – if it wanted to.
    However, US interests are shifting in a rapidly changing world and Israel should take note….
    I prefer not to get too optimistic before there are some real concrete steps taken to establish an independent Palestinian State – there have several false dawns over the past decades. The UN vote was a much needed positive – Israel internationally more isolated than ever – and with a cool White House in situ – but very difficult to know if Obama will take the necessary (domestic) risks in order to get a settlement agreed.

    After all, Obama is paid NOT to give a damn about anything other than The US Empire’s interests – and paid to make sure Hilary gets into the White House in 2016.

  • Cryptonym

    Fred interesting survey results. The increase is distressing, the definition of racist incident is very wide, it includes sectarianism. What the report can’t detail is that the racist’s targetting Asians, Pakistanis etc, and the racists targetting white British are one and the same, in the second case the white British are probably mostly Scotland’s RC minority, escaping the central belt in droves to find the sticks not yet as blighted but with constant propagandizing against Independence, fearmongering and sowing division giving encouragement to such Protestant UJ waving morons, who had thought they had special status and dislike the idea of equality, it could spread from its Glasgow home grounds.

    Billy Connolly, bemoaning the consequences of his celebrity and wealth and somehow extrapolating from that root-less isolation, to the Independence debate is a peciliar leap. What a tragic figure he cuts, I pity the poor little yin in his ghastly predicament; that would be one no vote then, if he lived here and could reach a polling station unimpeded by the worshipping multitudes, he’d moan more if the adulation stopped.

  • Fred

    Cryptonym

    A rise in nationalism is followed by a rise in racism and you think the egalitarians are to blame.

  • Cryptonym

    The rise in ‘racism’ is accounted for by increased reporting of alleged ‘hate crime’ and simply crime where the victim thinks their race religion or whatever as an aggravating or contributing factor or the police interpret it as such. New laws make certain matters of greater interest to the police as they now have a remit to investigate or intervene, much of this was previously unrecorded, accounting for the increase.

    “A rise in nationalism is followed by a rise in racism and you think the egalitarians are to blame.” I never said anything even approximating that, carry on dissembling and inverting what I said; egality is almost synonymous with equality. I think racist bigots are to blame, who by definition reject egalitarianism and equality.

  • Cryptonym

    “Quite how it’s relevant you haven’t made clear.”

    Sorry Munsterman I had switched to addressing Kempe directly there, rather than your good self, hence the misunderstanding. Got distracted by Fred’s dizzy incomprehension and disinfo.

  • Ferret

    I’m disappointed.

    I really expected there to be a good reason why people use the term “genocide” in connection with the Palestinians but it seems to be merely a synonym for “you won’t give me a country”.

    This is of course a fair enough complaint in and of itself – but whatever else it is, it’s not genocide.

    Genocide – as defined by the UN’s Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide – requires the “intent to [physically] destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group” [1].

    (Article 2(c) of the Convention clarifies that this refers to physical destruction.)

    Apart from the obvious lack of intent on Israel’s part to destroy the Palestinian people (now numbering six million), denying them statehood does not amount to physical destruction and so cannot constitute genocide.

    [1] “Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide”, as adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948 as General Assembly Resolution 260.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Prevention_and_Punishment_of_the_Crime_of_Genocide

  • Ferret

    Don’t get me wrong – I’m not immune to the sufferings of the Palestinian people, which are many and long, nor to the injustice perpetrated against them by having Israel foisted upon them by the UN (and subsequently at gunpoint).

    But it’s bullshit to call it a “genocide”. That’s all. Compared with the slaughter of 1,000,000 Armenians or 6,000,000 Jews? Give me a break.

  • Kempe

    So, if for example, the inhabitants of the Shetlands and Orkney voted overwhelmingly to remain in the union they’d still be forced to become part of an independent Scotland?

    It seems self-determination is fine for some but not for others.

    Yes the partition of Ireland has caused some terrible problems but we’ve no way of knowing if the alternative would have been any better or indeed worse. At the time 100,000 men had joined the UVF which could’ve been a big headache for the republic. Things might’ve been better had both sides shown more tolerance of the other but that would be too much to expect.

  • Fred

    “The rise in ‘racism’ is accounted for by increased reporting of alleged ‘hate crime’ and simply crime where the victim thinks their race religion or whatever as an aggravating or contributing factor or the police interpret it as such. New laws make certain matters of greater interest to the police as they now have a remit to investigate or intervene, much of this was previously unrecorded, accounting for the increase.”

    That’s one explanation.

    However I feel that an increase in incitement to hatred of the English by Nationalists who think it will increase their chances of winning a referendum is the more likely explanation.

  • Munsterman

    Scotland’s future is for the people of Scotland to decide – nobody else.

    Same applies to Ireland.

    I look forward to the day when Scotland – and Palestine – both take their place among the independent countries of the world.

  • Cryptonym

    Kempe: The old Orkney or Shetland Island canard, as floated in the McCrone report all those years ago, if you had suggested somewhere else then it might have been possible to take you seriously (putting your magical Zionist supremacist beliefs aside).

    Fred: that’s not one explanation, it is the explanation as even the BBC report stresses. The overall increase IS attributable to increased reporting and recording and the White British victim element are mostly fellow Scots; Irish descent or religious intolerance the aggravating factors, the nominally Catholic minority (almost entirely non-practicing, agnostic or atheist in actual religious belief) on the receiving end, it isn’t new, but part of parcel of the UK’s fading divide and rule legacy. I wouldn’t deny anti-English sentiment can be found, Independence supporters aren’t however the source of it and want and will have the best working and fraternal relationships with England and the other countries of the UK, their governments and people. If England, particularly the north of the country fears future unassailable Tory majorities in England after Independence, they simply have to take the matter up with those further south who keep voting for them, and as Labour at present are the only other non-choice excepting the far right and LibDems – either no better or far worse alternatives – their real predicament is understandable, possibly they could devolve themselves from London rule too. Independence is Scotland’s answer to Westminster’s perfidy, organisations such as the English Constitutional Convention have done some forward thinking on redressing England’s democratic deficit which will be even more obviously dysfunctional, impossibly so, after Scotland’s Independence. Good luck with it.

  • Fred

    “Yes, that would be the legal counsel to the Palestinian Authority.”

    No, I wasn’t surprised, I wasn’t surprised at all the others who rightly believe that what Israel is attempting to do counts as genocide.

    But if you don’t want to call it that that is up to you, nobody is going to dictate to you what you can and can’t call anything. I’ll stick with Craig and Francis Boyle and call it what it is.

  • Fred

    Cryptonym

    I’m here and I’m seeing it first hand.

    Interesting idea the north of England gaining independence from the south. I take it you would therefore support Orkney and Shetland gaining independence from the rest of Scotland. Why should they stand for being ruled by Holyrood?

  • Kempe

    Cryptonym,

    I picked Shetland and Orkney at random, as my post says an example. It could just as easily have been Skye or the Outer Hebrides but I get the impression it’s a question the nationalists don’t want to have to think about.

  • Fred

    Kempe

    Yes it is, without the Inset Isles no oil revenue.

    The fact is that the history and heritage of Orkney and Shetland have little to do with most of the rest of Scotland, to them there isn’t any difference between the Lowland Scots and the English, which let’s face it there isn’t. They don’t want to be forced to have Gaelic road signs, the biscuit tin image of the “traditional Scot” is totally alien to them, they are Norse and damned proud of it they are too.

  • Herbie

    Ferret

    This “genocide” thing you’re on seems like a straw man.

    It’s ethnic cleansing and that’s surely bad enough to be getting on with.

  • Cryptonym

    Kempe: Are you working in harmony with Fred? Strangely you conflict superficially on the actual topic which is Palestine, parry withering unimaginative cheap shots to burnish your antagonisms and both gleefully seek to derail focused discussion. Predictable Zionist and UK unionist ‘talking points’ are your working fodder. I’ve already been here with Fred and his NHS treatment scaremongering, so theres nothing new there. Randomly picked indeed.

    Orkney and Shetland are only in the last few years experiencing devolved Holyrood government, along with almost all of Scotland they gave a huge vote of confidence in the SNP’s independence and other policies at the last Holyrood election. Westminster’s too long remote punitive rule and despicable irrational policies foreign, domestic, economic, serving only narrow vested interests, remain the problem, the solution: Independence, unites the people in their ethical enlightened dissent and moves the country forward on a democratising and empowering trajectory. We’ll just have to wait for the referendum and see.

    I look forward to further incestuous Israel/Palestine nit-picking from you both. Have at it.

  • Fred

    “Orkney and Shetland are only in the last few years experiencing devolved Holyrood government, along with almost all of Scotland they gave a huge vote of confidence in the SNP’s independence and other policies at the last Holyrood election.”

    By both electing Lib Dem MSPs.

  • macky

    @Ferret,

    “The map you linked to is wildly inaccurate and totally misleading.”

    It was more the three maps just under, that show how Palestine has been virtually wiped-off the map:

    https://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/israel-palestine_map.jpg

    Killing Palestinians because they wish to continue living in Palestine is exactly the same as killing Palestinians because they are Palestinians; Palestinians are killed virtually everyday by Israel, & their lives are made delibrately unbearable so they will give-up all claims to their homeland.

    “But it’s bullshit to call it a “genocide”. That’s all. Compared with the slaughter of 1,000,000 Armenians or 6,000,000 Jews? Give me a break.”

    Genocide is the means to achieve ethnic-cleansing, and 90% of Palestine has been cleansed of Palestinians since 1946, a slow-motion genocide is still a genocide, and it some ways it’s worse.

    The Serbs were found to have committed Genocide iro the Srebrenica massacre, despite providing safe passage for all the women & children; whereas Israelis not only kill children for sport (see Chris Hedges’ “A Gaza Diary: Scenes from the Palestinian Uprising”), but they actually also treat the murder of civilians as a Spectator Sport;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsv5VAiCB3E

  • Cryptonym

    “By both electing Lib Dem MSPs.”

    I doubt anyone anywhere will make that mistake again, given how quickly they jumped into bed with the Tories whose policies were anathema to Scotland. Clegg’s closeness to his mentor Leon Brittain and his former membership of Conservative student associations should have set alarm bells clanging about the real direction of the Liberal Democrats. Former ‘Scottish dept.’ leader Nicol Stephen’s strident Unionism had a palpably uncompromising Paisleyite tinge, damaging enough with his every utterance to earn him a place in the House of Lords political slag heap, without passing Go or collecting 200 pounds. William Rennie is from the same shapeless faceless amorphous yes man mould. Like you a fraud, Fred.

  • Fred

    “Like you a fraud, Fred.”

    And there folks we have that Nationalist level of debate I was telling you about.

  • Fred

    Seems to be trouble brewing in the West Bank, Israelis shot dead a kid on his 17th birthday. Can’t see it on any of the news sites yet.

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