96 thoughts on “Edinburgh Islamophobia Conference

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  • guano

    November

    What’s difficult to understand about saying that Muslims are racist as well as other types of people. They should get the planks out of their own eyes before complaining about Islamophobia. Think. Do. Thanks. is all I want to hear. Not expecting apologies either.

  • doug scorgie

    guano
    17 Mar, 2013 – 5:08 pm:

    “When the Muslims hold power in their hands, and they believe in my case that they have the key of power over me in my religion, they exercise that power mercilessly and ruthlessly.”

    “Is that Islam or Islamophoneya?”

    No Guano, it’s just bollocks.

  • guano

    Doug Scorgie

    Pdum pdum, pdum pdum, pdumperdumperdumperdumperdu-u-u-u-u-mperdumperdumper dummmmmmmmmm. Pahhhhhhh.

    Not everything is as nice as pink panther cartoons. No its not bollocks.

  • Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    “Not everything is as nice as pink panther cartoons. No its not bollocks.”

    I should rather say that this interchange between Guano and November has gone on for far too long. It is mostly incomprehensible and very, very boring.

    So be good boys and put a sock in it, huh?

    *********

    La vita è bella, life is good! (read Habbabkuk for interesting posts with
    intellectual firepower)

  • guano

    DS

    Before the arrival of the prophet Muhammad SAW the only religion which explained the mercy and generosity of God was the Jewish religion, which had been turbocharged by the arrival of Jesus PBUH and his followers gospels which explained the Jewish religion to non-Jews for the first time. Up to then religion had consisted of sacrificing living creatures including humans to imaginary forces tied to inanimate objects or human emotions or the seasons or man-made idols.

    Try it, catch an animal tomorrow and fling its guts out in a random fashion, chew a few laurel berries and see what you can find. ‘Do not uncork the wine bottle before you reach home’ said the Delphic oracles. When I was a teenager I regularly used to read my horoscope in the daily rag, because I was almost completely uneducated in religion, except for my faith in God and the extrapolations of the Jewish religion contained in the Christian Bible.

    Or go and join a group of young men kept in solitary confinement in a Buddhist monastery or ancient Greek Demeter sect, dancing duelling drinking dying or worse, a Jesuit seminary. The idea of separating them from family and preventing them from learning the tools of family, by being brought up in one, was to create a specialist religion, to which others could venally offer the passing offering. i.e. not a participating religion. The Christian religion started as a religion centred on justice and equality but gradually became a continuation of that non-participating non-understanding ancient sect system.

    All religions gravitate towards the trivial, the ritual at second-hand, the lowest level of conformity to remain within the rules of the religion. At the moment in Islam there is a new scourge, some Salafists, but not all, who blindly follow the dictats of their rulers who in turn blindly follow the dictats of the enemies of Islam, without exercising their conscious mind/ shahadah or conscience. Shahadah means in this context what you have witnessed or understood. For example if you had run over someone and had to come to terms with what that means.
    These salafists look at the rules, but do not concern themselves with the justice of the situation.

    By the time that Jesus PBUH arrived, Judaism had become overrun by on the one hand polytheism meaning a loss of any contact with God and instead relying on ritual and superstition, and on the other hand the Pharisees who relied on the rules , but did not concern themselves with Justice. Jesus pbuh was calling them to the justice of Islam and they rejected him. because they rejected him the whole bangcaboodlebox of Islam was removed from Judaism. The 100% believing prophets of Islam of his time such as John the Baptist and Zachariah, and also Mary, Jesus’ mother peace be upon all of them were then succeeded after 500 years by the last prophet Muhammad, may Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him.

    Why then, at the behest of and the payroll of modernday revisionist Zionist gangsters who have robbed the economies of the world to promote that old religion of Judaism, with its Alawi style magic rituals and Pharisee style injustice. Why should I put up with the smokes and mirrors of modern economic theory and the firmly keeping of the trap zipped at all times? Why should I put up with the Pharisee Salafist agenda which is to trivialise and ritualise the deep heart of Islam, and to persecute anybody who runs their life through conscience and love instead of their mean dogmas, rules and vindictiveness against all but their own sect?

    The answer is I’m not going to put up with it and I’m not going to put up with dumping the blame on Islamophobia, racism against Islam when that takes the heat off the agencies that are doing the damage in this world, viz the lies of economics, the lies of the media against Islam and political games of the Salafists who think that if you pretend that Islam is a harsh uncaring religion then they will achieve drops of power from their enemies. God has said that if the Zionists gain power then they will never give the Muslims a portion of it, even as much as a datestone. So all this political Phariseeing by the Salafists is a complete and total waste of time.

  • November

    ………… I’m not going to put up with it and I’m not going to put up with dumping the blame on Islamophobia, racism against Islam when that takes the heat off the agencies that are doing the damage in this world, ……..

    So you want to use the hatred that is directed at Muslims, for the benefit of thwarting the Salafists (ancestralists) and reactionary sects within Islam. This notion falls strangely in line with the intentions of those whom are promoting hate towards Muslims with a view to expanding their sphere of influence to pocket a few billions in the process of stealing the resources of the Muslims that happen to be sitting on the riches that these despicable operatives are coveting.

    The fact that few ill educated and illiterate followers of some sell out “religious/community leaders” ought to be educated, and not humiliated/beat up/maimed/murdered is not an appealing prospect for anyone in a hurry to reform these poor followers.

    It ought to be noted that force/violence is the ultimate expression of helplessness, and is not taken account of and is absent from the lines of thought, that have yielded such an inhuman solution for a simple lack of spiritual and analytical growth of some as yet undeveloped individuals whom happen to be Muslims. Simply put the reactionary Salaphists are busy killing Muslims, because they believe their victims have brought Islam to disrepute, then the reformists likes of yourself are busy letting the others (none Muslims) at large do the dirty work by bearing down on the Muslims, because these are not good Muslims. The poor Muslims are caught in the middle and getting killed for differing reasons does not matter, because so long as they become good Muslims is the paramount goal.

    Islam promotes critical thinking and constructive criticism, and makes it duty of every Muslim to adhere to such a conduct, but this does not mean; Islam sanctions denouncement and harm wished upon the next pilgrim along because in your estimation he/she is a “bad” Muslim.

    Hatred of Islam is an accepted and tolerated facet of the current political classes, hence the lack of any actions to combat this insidious and vile construct. This in turn yields; “die Arabs die” page set up in the Face Book by a zionist celebrating the deaths of victims of a bus crash in Jordan. The vile page getting carried on the Face Book with no let or shame. The hatred of Islam unchecked yields rashers of bacon placed upon the corpse of Muslim woman, resting in a hospital morgue. Hatred of Islam tolerated paves the way for a more cruel society that cares very little for human values and instead promotes greater violence.

    Denying hatred of Muslims exists, with a view to forcing the Muslims see their errors and shortcomings, is as good as promoting hatred of Muslims. This is not a healthy line of thought, because some illiterate individual who knows no better is telling; “you are one of us” somehow does not mean that this individual ought to be persecuted to give up this line of thought. He/she ought to be educated to understand one of us means the human family, regardless of minor differences in appearance, or customs.

    Critical thinking ought not be mistaken with wholesale denouncement and malice directed at those deemed less observant Muslims. Combating hatred of Muslims ought to be the paramount goal, for Muslims as well as none Muslims. Divisions of our society based on such a criteria only undermines the general human values that are scarcely observed as it is, with the resultant mass slaughter of many innocent lives in the futile wars fought by the warlords who are promoting such vile methods of divide and rule. We need less destruction and more construction.

  • Jemand - Evolutionary Religion 101

    November

    You have very pointedly asked Guano questions with a tone that that implies a demand for an answer. I ask you, “What kind of authority do you bestow upon yourself? On what grounds do you give yourself this power?” Please explain how you acquired the right to use this interrogation technique on other commentators.

    As for what the word “apke” means and its origins, Guano is not your personal ever-ready encyclopedia cum dictionary – try googling it for yourself like the rest of us.

    Something that we can’t google is what your religion and ethnic background is. I have declared mine in various comments and Guano has also revealed his. May I ask you, pointedly – “What are your religious beliefs and ethnic background?” It might help us in choosing and framing specific questions that we can put to you to progress this discussion.

    I don’t speak on behalf of Guano but I will offer this possible explanation of Guano’s statement regarding holding Muslims to a higher standard than non-Muslims. When you belong to a family, you have higher expectations of your family members than you do for non-family members. What others do is their problem, but what your own family members do affects you too and sometimes causes you problems like damaging your reputation (guilt by association). You also have ambitions for your own family that might not be realised if you hold them to the low standards of others. It’s a common attitude among members of a group to hold other members to higher standards than non-members. Unfortunately, these expectations of higher standards are often motivated by notions of superiority. I thought that was quite obvious.

    Guano said – “Why is it so unthinkable for you as well that if non-Muslims project their fears onto the Muslims and become racist in their attitudes that Muslims do not do the same?”

    November replied – “This statement is so wrong in so many levels that is unbelievable. Further, this shows you have no understanding of the realities that the “Muslim” (foreigners, immigrants, anyone with a slight colour variation) community is facing, in the current hostile climate that has been brought on by the deliberate fanning of the flames of hatred by successive governments in UK.”

    Wrong on so many levels? Can you explain each of these levels or was that just the usual sort of rhetorical bluster that is supposed to pass as intelligent debate these days? Guano’s statement is a simple clear one that merely states that Muslims and their various associated ethnic groupings experience the same problematic attitudes within as every other social group. You then go off on a tangent by accusing him of having no understanding of [an amorphous mangling of social problems]. Guano understands what these problems are and he is explaining what response he prefers from brother Muslims. However, he is also explaining what frustrations he is experiencing in his dealings with individuals and self-interested sub-groups.

    Racism

    Unfortunately, this word is losing value everyday with the loss of meaning on every misuse. It’s formal and legal meaning is being ever expanded under pressure from activists, smug first year uni students, lawyers, politicians and the media. Apparently, being anti-Islam (like me) is being racist. It’s all quite bizarre when you come to realise that there is no such thing as “race” let alone a belief system being an instance of one kind.

    Jemand’s Law – “As soon as you wrongly accuse someone of racism, you lose the debate!”

    . . . .
    No such thing as “race” –
    http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm

    Not all Muslims are terrorists, not all anti-Islamics are “racists” –
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

    Muslim “racists” –
    http://www.asianimage.co.uk/columnists/9511814.Racism_within_the_Muslim_community/

    Some Muslims discussing “racism” –
    http://www.islamicboard.com/discover-islam/134314985-there-racism-among-muslims.html

    Surely Arabs can’t be “racist” – 
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_Arab_world

    Only white people are “racists” –
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Asia

    Primer –
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

  • guano

    Suhayl and Jemand.
    Thanks for shedding your light into this discussion. I just don’t see why entering into what I see as personal transactions such as praying at a particular mosque or marrying into a particular community, or working at a particular factory, gets translated by my Muslim brothers into – I have signed a contract which puts me under their control for the rest of my life. Weird or what?

    I like religion unlike others here and I’m not going to throw out the baby of religion with the bath water of ethnic group suspicion. Surely they have to learn that Islam is not allowed to put pressure on the individual of a different ethnic group just because of what his countrymen did in a different century, or now? That becomes an additional -phobia to the Islamophobia I already face as a bearded Muslim. The weird part is that they think they are so much better Muslims because they have set up a set of in-house mechanisms that persecute me because of my race.

    November. I already face the unwanted attentions of the security services because of my religion. It begins to look as though the non-English Muslims are getting some back-handers from them for giving us a hard time. Like the ad last year where two actors were wearing the mask of eachothers’ face. Cameron sends guns to help the Muslims against Assad, while UK Muslims spy on and manipulate their brothers for being of a different race.

    Slime-bags, the lot of them.

  • guano

    Maybe the reality behind what is called Islamophobia is that UK people from the Protestant tradition can detect this habit of the Muslims of forcing their brothers and sisters to come totally under their control and they don’t like it.

    It isn’t Islamphobia at all – it’s solid British common sense. We got rid of papistry for good in 1640 and we don’t intend to return to it under the label of my lovely religion of Islam. The mad mullahs just don’t get it, but we do. They don’t like it up ’em when we blow the lid on their nasty political schemes.

    God help us when Scotland divides from the UK and gives everybody another reason for stabbing their fellow humans for stabbing eachother from behind.

  • November

    Jemand – Evolutionary Religion 101

    Nothing is more insufferable than a proselytising atheist, these suffering from intellectual myopia go on pontificating bollocks; in a bizarre reverse Jehovah Witness fashion banging on about atheism.

    As for opening your essay by taking the side of Guano, are you some kind of an attorney for him? Did he ask you come to his defence and aid?

    As for what the word “apke” means and its origins, Guano is not your personal ever-ready encyclopedia cum dictionary – try googling it for yourself like the rest of us.

    What the fuck are you on about? Are you Guano, what the fuck has it to do with you, what has been debated with Guano? When you are addressed then you can start writing the oodles of unconscious drivel you have written.

    Finally I have no time to waste to engage in debate with those whom have nothing to learn and are too busy teaching the world. End of communication.

  • Jemand - Evolutionary Religion 101

    Start of communication ..

    Obviously I hit the nerve of an emotionally retarded, hysterical anti-racist. November, go out and live life a little before you presume to lecture grown ups. I won’t bother instructing you on the rules and non-rules of posting here – you’ll need to learn that yourself.

    Good night, angry little boy.

    Over and out.

  • Suhayl Saadi

    Yes, it’s all very complex, isn’t it?

    I’d like to see domestic movements based on economics re-emerge – I don’t mean ‘class war’ or whatever – just ‘stop the pillaging’, have decent services, stop subsidising the City of London, take a leaf from Iceland’s, rather than Ireland’s, book and so on.

    Now, today, identity politics simply seems largely to keep people in their little boxes wearing their nativist costumes on both the inside and the outside, cuts them off from other working/unemployed people (by which I mean, the vast majority of the population) and ultimately systemically disempowers them. I actually argued (a couple of years ago, on a platform with Harpreet Singh Kohli at a festival in Edinburgh) that this whole idea of/never-ending quest for (a voyage into a world of ever-decreasing circles) for/reality of ‘identity’ is itself manufactured. I think it’s reductive. We’ve seen the impact of this over the past 30+ years in general terms of being fissiparous and also in terms of the essentialisation and fossilisation of thought and of modes of activism and of art. He didn’t agree. And there you have it.

  • guano

    Leotards do not change their spots even when worn by George Galloway. Cameron’s Westminster Wollywood spin false moustache and false boobs as Dame Twankey defender of private grief and press freedom is a total pantomime. The name of the pantomime is Ali Baba and the 40 thieves, the mad mullahs who disgrace the name of Islam by joining this abomination of spying on people in the privacy of their homes.

    You do not measure success in the number of people deceived, but in the ever vaster majority who are not deceived. You can even carry on rendition if you display the right level of public contrition. More and more elaborate pranks are required to restore the suspicious public to confidence again.
    Pull the other one – its got calls to prayer loudspeakers on it.
    Political minds are all the same – bent as hairspins.

  • November

    Maybe the reality behind what is called Islamophobia is that UK people from the Protestant tradition can detect this habit of the Muslims of forcing their brothers and sisters to come totally under their control and they don’t like it.

    You have not answered any of the questions put to you, and further, you have pointedly refused to accept the prevalence of hatred of Muslims, despite the fact that you have been a victim of such a hatred yourself, as per your own admission.

    I already face the unwanted attentions of the security services because of my religion. It begins to look as though the non-English Muslims are getting some back-handers from them for giving us a hard time.

    The more you have written the more a complete portrayal of a vicious little racist has been in progress. On one hand you call the other Muslims “brothers” on the other you then go on about the nasty bunch of bastards these “brothers” are to a man of them. Fact that “ non-English Muslims” are giving you a hard time for a piece of silver is firmly stock in your mind, yet you seem to fail to see the point that the SIS(which one of the 768) are the ones that are engaged in attending to you although their attentions are not welcome.

    Strange that you cannot see the woods for the trees mate. What is hatred of Islam and why Muslims are under such an enormous amounts of suspicions? Nope there is no hatred of Islam, just the Asian bastards shopping/giving a hard time the other Muslims/being racist to “English” is the trouble!!!!

    On one hand the times of the prayers are bothering you, on the other because you have been married/divorced into/from the Muslim community you feel that they own you, then there is your gripe about getting racially abused by the said “brothers”. Then there is the Muslims who are doing the killing in Syria, with the guns supplied by Cameron (BTW which authoritative source do you have that these mercenaries doing the killings in Syria are in fact good practising Muslims? Ever heard that Saudi jails are getting emptied from criminals sentenced for beheading as these are sent out to Syria?) However, in justification of your untenable position you then invoke the “nationalist” sentiments;

    It isn’t Islamphobia at all – it’s solid British common sense. We got rid of papistry for good in 1640 and we don’t intend to return to it under the label of my lovely religion of Islam. The mad mullahs just don’t get it, but we do. They don’t like it up ‘em when we blow the lid on their nasty political schemes.

    All the while spewing more sectarian hatred targeting the Catholics and the Shia Muslims to boot too. Reading your contribution there is a theme of an equal opportunity sectarian racist, that equally hates; Shia, Catholics, Salaphists, Asian Muslims, ……

    Let us face it, you really have a very poor understanding of Islam don’t you? As yet you have not understood that religion and politics are in fact intertwined, and those intent on separating the church from the government are in fact playing a nasty dishonest shell game.

    Islam is a way of life, it is a way of thinking, it is a way of conduct, it is a way of reforming/shaping the society, it promotes; social justice, equality (not the perverse sex equality, there far too many areas that pudenda are irrelevant), and above all humanity.

    Whilst you have been PBUHing away when you debate with others, but the pointed questions that have been put to you by me, have remained and are going unanswered. Your pointed refusal of accepting the current waves of hatred Against Muslims/immigrants/Coloureds, and Islam as well as you turning the issue on its head, and blaming the Muslims for being the racists bastards that they are. Has been supported by Sidekick General, and an Atheist, does this not mean anything to you?

    Do you accept that hatred towards Muslim and Hatred of Islam exist in UK and the West in general and it ought to be combated, or do you want to join the lines of the haters by denying its existence, and or blaming the victims of this hatred?

    This fact is a separate issue from your petty little gripes about the prayer times, and or some ill educated individual trying to patronise you by telling you; “you are on of us”, or some clever Asian trying to get more out of you by playing the Muslim brother card nothing unusual there; Freemasons shaft each other too mate (brothers).

    Finally it is not ichtelaf (اختلاف) but ikhtela’f divergence/schism, just as a throw away.

  • Suhayl Saadi

    I realise that to some extent I am being tangential, but that is my wont, I think everyone knows my position on hate and so on and maybe let’s just relax a bit and try to chat with one another – so let me share a little vignette with you all.

    A few years ago, I attended an event at which, to showcase the diverse talent in the city concerned, among other acts, there was a young British man of African origin doing a breakdance, to much applause by the local authority, etc. officials present. He was very good.

    During the meal afterwards, I got chatting with him. He told me,

    “Actually, you know, I’m a ballet dancer”.

    I asked,

    “So, why weren’t you doing a ballet dance then?”

    He shrugged and looked down.

    Of course, we both knew perfectly well why he wasn’t doing a ballet dance.

  • Cryptonym

    A breath of fresh air Suhayl Suhadi, always appreciate your divining for the root of issues. Guano’s god references, this pbuh rubbish, it all reads like something from Cromwell’s era of fanatical Protestantism, I’ve had this impression since long before Guano actually stated some parallel there, where the h in he and his is capitalised when referring to this imaginary super-being common to all these religious zealot types. Barking the lot of you. You think 17thC religious intolerance in England is a good and admirable thing, with its sweeping paranoia, fantastical popish plots found behind every misfortune; persecution then as now, a solution, and think that’s good-old fashioned British common-sense, I think it no such thing, it’s a demented abandonment of all common-sense.

    “Cameron sends guns to help the Muslims against Assad” It’s perfectly true and his been well known to have being going on for most of the last year, Bbc disinformation notwithstanding. I agree too about slime-bags, but you yourself Guano have made repeated bloodcurdling denunciations of President Assad, and called for his demise, in effect for the success of these ‘slime-bags’ who are of course doing the work of those other slime-bags, the Israelies/Zionists (I purposefully make no distinction there.) and their disloyal traitorous (to their morally collapsed hosts) diaspora worming their poisonous religious supremacist viewpoints into every sphere of those host’s establishment and masses.

    Your god isn’t even dead, as It never has existed in the first place. Don’t mistake inculcated religious shite for any part of your cultural identity, that exists independently.

  • guano

    Nymphocrim

    Thanks you made me laugh after November’s horrible slanders.
    As November knows full well, I have been responding to some injustices done to me with the aid of spying and gossiping, not by all the Muslims as he twists my words, but by a very small group who are highly respected in the Muslim community, well protected socially and financially, and who should know better than to abuse their positions to pick on others. The Qur’an permits someone to use harsh words to redress the balance of harsh treatment, up to the same level but not beyond. Also it was said by our prophet SAW that we should help those who hurt us. How? By preventing them from doing the same again.

    Not sure what kicks November gets out of bending my words to include all of the Muslims. If there was any collateral damage from my attack, to any other Muslim or non-Muslim who took offence at what I said, then I apologise. Full page spread for full page spread as Cameron said. How do you make a complaint against powerful people who think they are immune from criticism within the walls of their little community? Privately first, and then with others who are fair-minded people, who I take Craig’s blog to be. That’s the instructions in the Gospels in the Gospels and in the Qur’an as well. Allah akbar, justice is done.

  • November

    Yes, it’s all very complex, isn’t it?

    Best to avoid phrase “complex” , as it normally means either a cup out and or an attempt to bamboozle the pilgrims and introduce some kind of fatalistic resignation by portraying the problem as intractable, with little or no solution to address it.

    identity politics simply seems largely to keep people in their little boxes wearing their nativist costumes on both the inside and the outside,

    The neo liberal construct of affording “identity” to various “groupings” are with a view to divide and rule, under a modern/post modern and more acceptable pretext. The fact that as yet still “race” and the implication thereof are prevalent, stem from the ease of operations for various scoundrels in the way of achieving their aims on principles of divide and rule. The point that working men and women are en mass getting exploited by the same superclass under differing pretexts somehow never dawns on the these workers whom invariably are the ones whom do the dirty work and get paid pittance for their efforts and have many grievances that go unaddressed, yet these never can see or discern the wider picture and are caught up in a local node that compels these to vent out their frustration on their own kind albeit in a different guise/appearance/sub group.

    Let us clarify that humanity does not have enough genetic differences to yield differing races, and this is a scientific and irrefutable fact. Further the race construct has been a tool to profit from the exploitation of a target underclass by characterisation of this target class as lesser human/subhuman. The introduction of lesser human concept plays on two facets: firstly appeals to the ego of the greater society engaged in such a reprehensible conduct, as being superior entities, despite their pitiful existence. Secondly the said lesser human class then can be treated as ghastly as possible without invoking any sense of guilt or remorse.

    The “race” construct maintains the sensibilities of the societies engaged in such a duplicitous conduct, yet affords the said society the use of slaves/forced labour/maintenance of underclass without any moral difficulties or qualms. However, the hatred that is directed at the subclass itself generates an opposite reaction within the subclass that is translates to no less than hatred of the greater society/ sub superclass. This two way hatred is an ideal vehicle for maintenance of the “order” through separation of the groups under exploitation (divide and rule).

    The price that is paid by the society engaged in such a reductive regimen is many folds chief among these the stagnant and almost static evolutionary processes that are needed to bring about a greater harmony and better quality of life. Then there is the general financial impoverishment, because the greedy superclass can not satiate their greed, and are forever seeking ways of “greater returns” on their investments (ie rip off the under classes even more). In addition to the said society becoming more cruel and to emphasise less on their own humanity. A truly ghastly outcome.

    Therefore fighting the “race” construct ought to be a paramount goal for all working men and women whose interest are in remaining united and aware of the dividers’ techniques in separating the herd and targeting the lesser capable prey class (no this is not survival of the fittest, because in that case most of the superclass could not survive for more than few days without their support brigades).

    In the event of such an outcome, the subclass disappearing and a unified working class emerging yield change;the aim being reducing the hold of the superclass, through challenging its monetary monopoly would be probably the first emergent signs of such development. Followed by new arrangements for arbitration and dispute resolution without referral to the formal constructs set in place by the superclass. Fact is these changes will not be smooth for change itself will be evident as challenging the order and the superclass, and the implications thereof.

    However the road to such a state of existence starts by accepting our differences and celebrating these differences, further understanding that there are many ways of attaining truth, and any attempts in imposition of a dogmatic singular doctrine itself ought to be challenged. As in any digital solutions there are many paths for attaining the same outcome. The universal one size fits all Henry Ford reductionism does not carry well into the organic lives. Sadly this facet itself is never challenged, and instead many people challenge each others methods of attaining truth. The divide and rule of the superclass targeting yet more areas yields such absurdities.

    Human are organic entities with warts and all, however their core programming of striving for “better/perfect/excellence” is a facet that can be utilised for the worse instead of better outcomes. This is a danger that is often going noticed among the working men and women, which is entirely based on their miseducation, misinformed minds.

  • Suhayl Saadi

    I agree about the divide-and-rule dynamic and much else. I used the word, “complex”, not to “bamboozle” or as a cop-out, but simply as a statement of fact. I also wanted to try to diffuse some of the ferocity of the argumentation, slow things down a bit, so people could ‘hear themselves think’ (as it were).

    The Henry Ford production-line approach does not work in societal terms, but nor does the constant emphasising of difference – I think we’ve probably ‘celebrated difference’ (i.e. placed difference centre-stage, like a statue or an icon, instead of as just one part of the fabric) quite sufficiently and mayeb we need to consdier ‘subverting difference’ a bit more. There has to be some middle ground in society, where things are in context, and are not viewed or parctised as absolutisms of one sort or another, but as fluid forms that flow inot one another. The African- British ballet dancer was a prime example of a form that should’ve been able to be fluid, but presssure of expectations had a limiting effect. I’ve seen this dynamic countless times in the arts – sadly, it is normative in that sector – the sciences are (by comparison) far more ‘fluid’ – though of course every societal system, to some extent, will replicate existing stratifications within the society.

    These issues are very complex, with multiple ‘rights’ competing with one another, various patriarchies contending for power positions within the matrix and a variety of forms of entrenched thinking, entitlements, chauvinisms, resentments, old and new racisms, old and new anti-racisms and so on, all swirling around. There is a sort of hysteria that erupts as soon as these subjects are discussed and some in society take advantage of that deliberately to foment discord. There is no question that views nowadays are hugely polarised and that is unhelpful in the context of seeking a way forward.

  • Suhayl Saadi

    To get a bit less woolly, though, for just a moment, as a small example, I think that we, here in the UK, all should have the same rights. I do not think that the law, in statute or in practice, should be modulated to accommodate what specific patriarchies, or dominant groupings within a self-defined cohort, for instance, might regard as ‘traditional’ customs (but which often are nothing of the sort and rather are instruments of convenience to re-inforce their own specific hegemonic power within those communities).

    Another example is that I do not think that science should be viewed on the same ontological plane as faith-based systems. There are many paths to metaphysical truth, and there are many gloriously-varied metaphysical truths, but these must not be confused with the scientific method (and yes, I know that science has been abused by everyone and that the subject-object relationship has been fraught with colonial power dynamics, etc.). But I dot not believe that those facts undermine the basis of science. To conflate religion with science is to debase both and is a fundametal misunderstanding of the nature of both.

  • guano

    November

    Sadly, as hard as I try I cannot make any sense of your discussion with Suhayl. It looks like a communist manifesto for north Korea.
    Also by the time you have cut up my arguments and pasted your own ngobs of total horse-shite in, I can’t recognise anything I have said in your re-gurgitated form. You have just taken individual words and minced whatever meaning I originally gave them into completely different form. Perhaps that is art, because it definitely isn’t logical discussion. And if want art, Suhayl’s your man.

  • November

    It looks like a communist manifesto for north Korea. Also by the time you have cut up my arguments and pasted your own ngobs of total horse-shite in, I can’t recognise anything I have said in your re-gurgitated form.

    “Communist manifesto” a clear Pavlovian reaction to “workers” (referred to in an earlier contribution). Lacking any kind of introspection on goes the charade. Evidently because:

    ….. complaint against powerful people who think they are immune from criticism within the walls of their little community?

    Hence the denial of existence of hatred against Muslims. Ignoring the fact that Islam promotes constructive criticism, which is widely different to “complain” or promotion of hatred towards the individuals concerned albeit Muslim or non-Muslim.

    The next claim that your words are twisted, in the “regurgitation” which presumably means the text pasted from the original arguments forwarded by you. Yet again clear indication of not taking responsibility for ones own actions/words/thoughts. The lack of humility in addition to taking up hostile positions will only create even more enemies within the Muslim community for you, seeing as you have not understood the basic principles of humility, tolerance and respect that Islam teaches.

  • November

    probably ‘celebrated difference’ (i.e. placed difference centre-stage, like a statue or an icon, instead of as just one part of the fabric)

    celebrating our differences, has been misconstructed as celebrating the differences, indeed emphasis on differences is a divisive instrument to further drive apart the groups existing within a fractured society. However, accepting the fact that we are different from one another, then nullifies the need to bring about a hegemonic standard issue citizenship.

    The sad story of the black ballet dancer, is indeed the epitome of the symbiosis of the racists and their victims engaged in an uneasy truce. That is criminality no less, indeed we must all have equal rights, how about Muslims getting afforded the same protection that is afforded the Jews, or Blacks getting the same protection that is afforded the Jews? Equal rights ought not mean forcing the target groups into assimilation (which normally is never attained, and serves only to further drive the target group away/isolate from the larger and dominant group).

    Must dash, lots of tasks and not enough time in the day.

  • guano

    GNome

    Why not just change the time-zone on your watch?
    I suppose you love spying and being spied on. If you don’t like something just stuck your head on upside-down.
    ‘Oh I prefer it that way. At least you know where you stand’. Priceless.

    Talking of which, how did we get Black Africans in a Baptist Church near here worshipping a painting of a white, long-curly-haired Jesus? Was that just because the white congregation had disappeared but nobody dared take it down? Or did these people , like you, just say:

    ‘Oh we prefer it that way, it’s part of our religion to submit to the opposite of natural justice and commonsense. Your intolerance of colonial symbols just shows how little you understand. It might cause offence to take it down’ Offence to whom? God? Jesus? The Devil? David Cameron?

    Now I wish I’d never touched the neighbour’s garden gnomes.

  • Suhayl Saadi

    “Equal rights ought not mean forcing the target groups into assimilation” November.

    That would be a novel interpretation of the term “equal rights”. The French-Algerian (etc.) experience would suggest to us that the kind of assimilation to which you may be referring does not work either.

    “Target groups” – itself an interesting turn of phrase (I realise that you are using it in a critical manner).

    I agree with your comments about the black ballet dancer. Thanks.

    Equal rights mean that we are equal before the law. So, firstly, no kidnapping, detention without trial, deportation at the behest of a foreign power without evidence being considered and subjected to cross-examination by both adversarial parties in open court, etc. being applied overwhelmingly to one specific group (I would suggest, to NO groups or individuals at all would be better, unless we want a police state).

    Secondly, also that cultural supposed ‘norms’ (whether they are or are not norms in the legal context ought to be irrelevant; indeed, the concept of such ‘norms’ for ontologically hermetically-sealed groups arguably is itself oppressive and discriminatory to everyone except possibly powerful and often reactionary lobbies within those groups) not render relative immunity or amelioration of prosecution, conviction and sentencing in relation to criminal activity.

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