Counter-Revolution 712


What we are seeing in Egypt is counter-revolution pure and simple, military hardliners who are going to be friendly with Israel and the US, and are committing gross human rights abuse.

Western backed counter-revolution is going to be sweeping back across the Middle East; do not be distracted by the words of the West, watch the deeds.  It will of course be in the name of secularism.  There is an important correlation between what is happening in Turkey and Egypt.  I made myself unpopular when I pointed out what the media did not tell you, that behind the tiny minority of doe-eyed greens in the vanguard of the Istanbul movement, stood the massed phalanxes of kemalist nationalism, a very ugly beast.  “Secularism” was the cry there too.

 


712 thoughts on “Counter-Revolution

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  • arsalan

    ss

    About Poofs, you can ask what you want. But remember, I answer what I want the way I want.

    Well, to be honest with you, I don’t sit arround all day thinking about them.
    And something tells me you want to divert attention from the last thing I posted about Naguib Sawiris.
    So I will answer you in a way that will bring attention right back at him.

    My beliefs about homosexuals would be exactly what the Quran and the Prophet pbh said about them. If you want to know my beliefs, try reading them.
    But even though you say you are a Muslim, whatever the Book of Allah and the words of the Prophet of Allah pbh say on the issue are not relivant are they?
    Because you believe Allah and his Prophet pbh should be ignored on certain issues don’t you. Obeying them in politics would make you an ISlamist and not a Muslim wouldn’t it?
    Well not just politics, when you listed who you call Islamists, you mentioned a groups that had nothing to do with Politics didn’t you?
    So, well using the Quran and the Sunnah on any issue would make you an Islamist and not a Muslim wouldn’t it?

    Remember, we are not talking about me and you interpreting the Quran and the sunnah differentlty. You believe Islam has no place in as a sorce for politics. That isn’t about interpretation, that is about rejection.

    Considering how you feel about Egypt. I am starting to wonder if your communism is like your Islam?
    I mean you are siding with the side that gets funded by Saudi Arabia and UAE, gets armed by America?
    The movement you call the will of the Egyptian people is headed and funded by Naguib Sawiris, the second riches man in Egyptian.
    Your communism seems like your Islam, neither seems to get in the way of your politics?

    And SS, you are being dishonest again. I called you that because it was you yourself who labeled yourself a red under the bed.

    But even so, your socialism seems like your Islam then? It doesn’t stop you calling a movement headed and funded by the second riches man in egypt the will of the people?

    technicolour
    Iran is not an acception. Even Saudi recognises gender surgery and so does Pakistan. I don’t know of a Muslim country that doesn’t. SS judges me and the Muslim world by his own prejadices. Laws do not interfer with what happens in peoples bedrooms if people keep it within their bedrooms.

    SS, yes, when the Khilafah people who rule by Islam are not going to legalise Gay Marriages in mosques, get over it.

    Jemand – Censorship
    SS was trying a sneaky trick by that last comment. Whether the Brotherhood rules, or the army rules. Even if the people who he supports as leftists rule. Egypt isn’t the UK, no one there supports Gay rights, whatever they call themselves.

    The People supported the brotherhood. The elections prove it. Whatever they or I believe about homosexuality It doesn’t change the fact.
    Or is it, “yes, almost everyone voted for them, but they don’t like gays, so that means people really support the army”.

    It is a dishonest argument. And I am not playing that game.
    Look for things about homosexuality in this book:
    http://quran.com/
    Whatever that book says, I believe it all. So you will find my views on every issue in there.

    SS If you use some comments by gays on how they interpret Islam to be gay friendly, to say how Muslim states should rule, doesn’t that make you an Islamist?
    I mean you are using an interpretation of religion in an afair of state?

    But whatever the people in egypt think of homosexuality. Are the laws they make on the issue, their right or yours?
    Well I’m glad you brought this up, because I can say the same about all of your points your raised here about what you call Islamism, in every country that you listed.
    Whether you like or dislike what they rule by, isn’t what they rule by the right of the people of that state?
    Or do they have to rule by the values of the white country you live in? And rule by white values?

    It might be as late as after eid before I reply. I am trying to cut down on internet use during ramadhan.

  • Suhayl Saadi

    “About Poofs, you can ask what you want. But remember, I answer what I want the way I want.” Arsalan.

    But you didn’t answer at all. Referring me to the Quran is fine. If I wanted to ask the Quran, I would’ve picked one up and read it. I didn’t ask Iran and I didn’t ask the Quran. I asked you. I would like to know what you think about LGBT rights.

    Wrt Egyptian oligarchs, I’m sure there are many powerful and wealthy forces trying to manipulate people and events in lots of directions.

    I’m with the people, myself: ‘Bread, Freedom, Justice!’ Aren’t you…?

  • arsalan

    Well, what you call the people are the oligarchs.
    Well when it comes to this guy. A lot of people forget, before he became the poster boy of “the will of the people the caused the coup”, he was Hosni Mubaraks Gamal’s best friend.
    Some people have very short memories.

    You missed the reason why I refered you to the Quran.
    LGB rights is an individiual issue. The real issue is secularism. This isn’t about how I interpret the Quran in regards to LGB rights. It is about people being allowed to interpret it on this or any issue.
    Is being a Muslim about reading this book and ignoring everything in it, or ignoring the parts of it that contract with your values.
    Or is being a Muslims basing your values on the book.

    Yes people have very different interpretations of the book. But this isn;t about one interpretation over another is it. It is about people being allowed to rule if they are influnced by that book.

    So, as said before. You want to know what I think about that issue. I refer you to the Quran and Sunnah.
    Ruling by Islam isn’t about all two billion Muslims agreeing on an interpretation of Islam. It is about us using Islam as a bases to argue our differences. Even though interpretations of Islam are different, Islam is something all Muslims share.
    So that is the starting point that Muslims can use to decide where we go next.

  • arsalan

    sorry
    that was meant to be
    He was Hosni Mubaraks son’s best friend.
    He was Gamal’s best mate.
    I think to use Hosnis best mate as the face of the revolution to bring back millitry would be to much for anyone to swollow.
    When it comes to his son’s best mate. It is easier for people to forget that?

  • Jemand - Censorship Improves History

    Arsalan, thanks for engaging on this issue of homosexuality and LGBT.

    Referring to the Quran is reasonable but insufficient. As you know, Islamic principles need to be implemented as actionable rules that are consistent for myriad situations. Since homosexuality is often at odds with longstanding customs and expectations of human behaviour, problems will arise that need to be dealt with in conformity with the Quran’s teachings.

    Therefore, laws need to be enacted to give unambiguous effect to Islamic principles. The devil, it always seems, to be in the details.

    Can you explain how the Quran regards homosexuality in a practical sense or modern setting? For example, while the Quran does not tolerate homosexual sex, does it forbid Muslims from tolerating homosexuals (men) from residing with each other with the suspicion that they are engaging in sex? This is, of course, getting into the area of ‘What if this.. What if that’ but very relevant for people to know where they stand in relation to society’s rules.

    And while there seems to be some accomodation of so-called transgendered people in some parts of the Muslim world, I would not expect that this means that, for the purposes of marriage and sex, such people would then be considered as sexually converted. Do you have thoughts on this?

  • Suhayl Saadi

    Yes, thanks, Arsalan, for these links. This is exactly what I feared – and what I’ve been suggesting right through this thread had happened/would happen. The people’s uprising – which of course began in 2011 – and re-erupted recently – was stopped in its tracks by the military/neoliberals power plexus. It’s a hijack – again. But as I wrote early on in this thread, if El Baradei et al don’t deliver – and I’ve seen no sign that they will – the people rightly will rise up and boot them out too. Until they boot out the military from the economy and from political power, though, it will not stop.

    Yes, that’s a decent answer at 7:46pm, thanks again, Arsalan. And Jemand’s at 753pm was a good point, too.

  • Jon

    Jemand, yes I’ll certainly reply to you, apologies that I’ve not been able to spend the necessary time to do so. Busy, that’s all. And, presently having consumed a goodly amount of excellent whisky this evening, I will await a time when I am able to offer a cogent reply – probably the weekend now. I appreciate the dialogue.

    I think you have also received extraordinary leniency in the moderation of this thread given the readiness of Jon to excise comments that dare to approach the invisible line that must not be crossed.

    A fair point indeed – certainly, moderation is not always a consistent example of itself. In this thread, the dreadful abuse from Arsalan was left partly because Suhayl is fairly fireproof, and partly because I felt it served as a good example of what happens when certain lines of questioning are crossed. I felt it served the dynamic here, rather than acted against it.

    In any given exchange, a judgement needs to be made as to whether aggression is distracting from an exchange on the core issues. It often derails things on this site, but for whatever reason, this thread remains discursive.

  • fedup

    I think you have also received extraordinary leniency in the moderation of this thread given the readiness of Jon to excise comments that dare to approach the invisible line that must not be crossed.

    Jon put down that bottle and read properly, there the old Aussie is having a go at me. Needless to point out that I am not surprised with your sanguine reply to this foul mouthed old fucking codger.

    When the other day I asked Sniper Suhayl to stop “finger banging Mary Jane Rotten Crutch, and publish more than drive by one-liner insults”. Despite the fact that you were sober, your retort to me was:

    Fedup: that’s plainly abusive, as well as featuring (nonsensical) strains of sexual violence. Rather unpleasant, surely?

    That was after the Irish contingent had already registered her insults.

    However in this case the fucking mad geriatric (no not the hasbawanker) the Aussie tosser with a German nick has gone on record:

    Not only are your comments mostly devoid of coherence, structure, cogency and intellectual value, they are also clearly repulsive to people who might even agree with some of your points (if they can be called that). Simply put, you have the personality of an ugly, spoilt, child who was once raped by a Catholic priest dressed up as a Teletubby – the purple one would be my guess. So you can understand why I feel conflicted about whether or not to pity you.

    Clearly implied sexual violence of rape, and paedophilia. This evidently then has earned the offending old wanker for his steadfast defence of Sniper Suhayl. That is overlooking his promotion of such an abhorrent sexual violence as rape and paedophilia.

    The fact that I have had to state that I am not religious, because you had me a foaming in the mouth jihadi bent on killing all the Jews and initiation of the of the world procedures. This then compelling me to come clean that I am not religious in the interest of moving the debate forward. That has been followed by, you asking me to submit a resume.

    While you were asking for my resume, Sniper Suhayl was busy interrogating me to come clean about my Jihadi ways (as well as my other nicks) because sure as hell, I was lying through my Muzzie Islam-ist teeth.

    You lament this thread has been discursive. No shit Sherlock! This thread has been littered with Sniper Suhayl firing his one-liners from various angles, and Arsalan trying to duck and a dibble, stumbling to the next word trap.

    Given the dynamics and the undercurrent, neither Arsalan has been converted, nor Sniper Suhayl has managed to gain any advantage. Although the old fucking Aussie Geriatric has managed to insult Muslims, and Christians whilst steering clearly away from the J_W, and getting praised for it too.

    Well I know it is a tough life out there, and a good job too. Because then I don’t fucking whine like Village Idiot, and Hasbawanker or this thread would have been the epitome of the slipping standards of the impartiality of the blog and all that shit.

    Pity we didn’t get to have a good debate with Arsalan though, clearly there is more mileage in Muzzie Bashing than actually trying to see eye to eye with the Muslims.

    Craig has summed it right; In Russia you cannot say Putin is corrupt; in the UK you cannot say Israeli state policy is malign.

  • Suhayl Saadi

    “all the masks fell from Mohamed Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood organisation… They and the remnants of the old regime are two sides of the same coin, which is tyranny and enmity towards the people”.

    http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2012/12/11/swp-egypt-croydon

    “In its counterrevolutionary offensive, the Egyptian ruling elite is relying on the affluent liberal and pseudo-left milieu in Egypt, which is shifting sharply to the right. Threatened by the mass movement of the working class, political forces that formerly criticized the Mubarak regime are caught in a wave of right-wing chauvinism.”

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/07/26/egyp-j26.html

  • Dreoilin

    “That was after the Irish contingent had already registered her insults.”

    Where? And how?

    “Suhayl was busy interrogating me to come clean about my Jihadi ways (as well as my other nicks)”

    Ah yes … Your “other nicks”. But when I mentioned that subject in the past, you attacked me like a flaming rabid pitbull. As if it wasn’t pitifully obvious that you were posting under more than one name.

    Hey Jemand, apparently (d’après Fedup/Passerby) I’m on a zimmerframe and you’re an ‘old fucking Aussie Geriatric’. Doesn’t it say a lot about someone that they try to use age as an insult?

  • technicolour

    Fedup, apparently (26/7 7.10pm): “When the other day I asked Sniper Suhayl to stop “finger banging Mary Jane Rotten Crutch, and publish more than drive by one-liner insults”. Despite the fact that you were sober..”

    that was crazy sick bad.

  • fedup

    Where? And how?

    That is the trouble with the senior moments, isn’t it?

    Delightful, Fedup. (Your personality in a nutshell, I might add.)

    I did not rabidly attack you, as you put, it! I encouraged you to lay off playing detectives. Your strange transactions on this board include; deriding the comments; as the risible crap that visitors to this blog will not read, then starting to play fucking witchfinder pursuivant, and “out” those whom you perceive to be using differing nicks because it will give the impression of a bigger foot print to the support for a particular subject. Which of the these two cases is it that you believe? This fuck knows, probably you have forgotten it by the time you write it out. Although it could be the fucking Cat’s (Schrödinger) fault too!

    This strange confusion in approach is to be found in you accusing me of rabidly attacking you, that is sure as hell a fucking sign of my guilt, and then also attacking me for not being vocal when Sniper Suhayl was interrogating me for being one and the same character of three characters. Yeah sure as hell a fucking sign of guilt again.

    However, what the fuck is achieved by filling the threads with the same shite and going over the same grounds? But this seems to be some kind of a fucking ocd that afflicts certain characters when they run out of bullshit to splatter all over the place. Why don’t we start an ID card system on this blog, to stop Identity Theft, and Identity Fraud???? Give me fucking strength, oh I nearly forgot seeing as all the labels are no enough, now Ageist is added to the long list of my misdeeds too!

    =====

    Does this mean we can’t be friends, Fedup?

    what happened to Aw Hugs?

  • fedup

    that was crazy sick bad.

    et tu?

    Simply put, you have the personality of an ugly, spoilt, child who was once raped by a Catholic priest dressed up as a Teletubby – the purple one would be my guess. So you can understand why I feel conflicted about whether or not to pity you.

    Not sick or bad, only;

    imagery to describe the internal rage of a tortured soul. Feel free to use it,

    What the fuck gives around here?

    Has this thread collapsed into some kind of The Stepford Wives fucking dimension?

  • Dreoilin

    “The fundamental cause of trouble in the world is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”

  • Jemand - Censorship Improves History

    Dreoilin, yes I’ve received insults regarding my imaginary old age many times on this blog. It might be because I grew up on a diet of very old movies and so picked up and now project some of that old-time vibe on this blog, often sardonically but flying right over some heads. In any case, it is funny how some can rail so aggressively against racism but then resort to the same irrational hatred towards old people.

    Fedup appears to operate on only two settings – zero and eleven.

  • Suhayl Saadi

    I’d thoroughly recommend this site, the Middle East and North Africa Solidarity Network, a trade union-based network. Incisive commentary on the current situation Egypt.

    It’s important to remember too that from 2008 workers in Egypt with their independent (as opposed to government-run) trade unions, were going on strike, etc. en masse, long before anyone else in the world realised cracks were appearing in the Mubarak regime. It’s also pertinent to recognise the central role women workers and organisers have had in the process. This is a narrative about which we seem to hear little.

    Here is Fatma Ramadan, from the Egyptian Federation of Independent Trade Unions:

    “We are thus faced with jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. The Muslim Brotherhood committed crimes and it must be held accountable and prosecuted for them, just like police and army officers and men of the Mubarak regime must be held accountable and prosecuted for their crimes. Do not be fooled into replacing a religious dictatorship with a military dictatorship.”

    This is exactly what I have been suggesting right through this thread. It is what Egyptians on the ground are saying.

    http://menasolidaritynetwork.com/

  • arsalan

    Elected government = dictatorship to the people who voted for the other side.

    In Egypt the left and right are the same people.
    There is a westernised elite, that have gone to Private schools and Egypt and forign universities outside of egypt.
    Some label themselves as left others as right, but both look down on who they reguard as the ignorant masses.

    Morsi’s crime was the crime of winning the election.

    “How there he win, doesn’t he know Islam has no place in politics, why couldn’t the socialists win! Why couldn’t the westernised, why couldn’t people who believe in liberal democracy!”

    The elite in egypt rule egypt like how colonialist minorities ruled places they conquered during imperialism.
    The Army and the people that back them view the egyptian masses and the election win as the natives getting a bit upperty and needing to be put back in their place.

  • arsalan

    It is amazing that people use the fact that people demonstrate for a millitry coup to claim it is democracy.
    When people that demonstrate against it are killed. 130 is the last count for the last demonstration.
    I think they believe in a Zionists democracy or the type that exists in Israel.
    Where Israel got its democratic mandate by killing and expelling 80% of the population who would have voted against them.

  • Suhayl Saadi

    Nope, sorry Arsalan, that (12:26pm and 3;39Pm, today) holds no water. The links I’ve provided are mainly from/about Egyptian workers and trade unionists. They do not support the coup – why are you (Arsalan) pretending that they do? Because it is convenient from an ideological point-of-view, for you to do so?

    Nor do they support the Islamists, who, when they got into power, in terms of oppression of the people, behaved no better than the Mubarak regime had before them. These ordinary Egyptian people experienced the violent oppression of both the military and the Islamists. So, some of them may well have voted for the Muslim Brotherhood last year, thinking that the Islamists meant it when they said they would rule for “all Egyptians”. But when they experienced Islamists as the government, they realised that was not the case. That is why millions – 16 million people – rose up and went out into the streets. This is the largest single uprising in history. Now the military has taken over. But if they screw around with the Egyptian people, there will be 30 million out on the streets.

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