Air Disaster

by craig on July 17, 2014 7:08 pm in Uncategorized

Grief is the only appropriate reaction to the death of so many people on Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17. The point scoring and guessing games are macabre. Of course, some people have to suppress grief and get to work urgently to secure the crash site from interference so there can be a proper investigation of what happened.

We have no idea what evidence lies behind the various statements as to who did or did not shoot down the plane. There is no evidence I have seen that it was shot down at all. This could relate to Ukrainian violence, it could relate to MH 370, it could be an unrelated incident. We really don’t know yet.

What is particularly ghoulish is the false grief, what I might call the triumphalist shroud waving, of those seeking gleefully to blame the side they do not support in the Ukrainian conflict. In the current total absence of evidence, this is abominable behaviour.

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530 Comments

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  1. Reluctant Observer

    17 Jul, 2014 - 7:12 pm

    Some won’t be unhappy at having critical attention shifted away from them, however.

  2. I haven’t a clue what the usual suspects have been saying. It is quite a coincidence that a Malaysian Airlines 777 with a Dutch connection was involved both times. Otherwise…. I’m with you Craig. Could have been many causes.

    Thoughts for those who have probably perished and for their loved ones.

  3. “Our thoughts and prayers are with …” has to be the most hackneyed phrase in the English language.

  4. Whence the bankruptcy of ideology and paucity of thought have reached a critical point then the rats knackers come to forth to explain the narrative that has come unstuck. The shameless propaganda in bbc pinning the tragedy on the separatists in Ukraine as per its orders are an expected event.

    My condolences to those poor souls who lost their lives, their deaths could not have been and easy one, may they rest in peace.

    Also rest in peace those other souls whose equally violent deaths have been brought about by bombs and shells raining from the skies, in Gaza, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Ukraine,….. may these souls find peace!

    The ghouls who facilitate these deaths are rarely touched by the tragedies they precipitate.

  5. Craig, your point is well taken, but in fact there is an lot of evidence coming in. It’s not wrong or ghoulish to assess that evidence.

  6. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    17 Jul, 2014 - 7:45 pm

    Reluctant Observer and Fedup

    You cannot keep your ugly mouths shut even after Craig posted the above piece, can you.

    Abominable creatures, both of you.

  7. doug scorgie

    17 Jul, 2014 - 7:45 pm

    Disgraceful speculation has stated on the BBC Live updates that theorizes that the plane may have been shot down by the Ukraine separatists with weapons supplied by Russia and what may be the diplomatic fallout if that proves to be the case.

    It didn’t take the BBC propaganda machine to kick in

  8. Abominable creatures, both of you.

    Have you been overdoing the sugar again?

    Best get to your insulin pen quick!

    Abominable is the creature that begot you.

  9. “The shameless propaganda in bbc pinning the tragedy on the separatists in Ukraine as per its orders are an expected event.”

    Is there more than one BBC? The BBC web site I read was saying that if the plane was shot down with a missile it was probably fired from another plane. I think that would pretty much rule out the separatists.

    The plane was over 10,000 meters high, that’s over 6 miles, while not impossible the rebels have equipment capable of that and somebody who knows how to use it I’d say it was unlikely.

  10. Yes the BBC compares badly with the measured, unbiased response of more responsible outfits like RT.

    http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/

    The Sukhoi 100 shown is half the size of a Boeing 777, something that ought to be obvious on the sophisticated radar supplied with Buk launches otherwise it’s vaguely plausible but as yet there’s no evidence either way.

  11. @Dreolin: it was a mark of respect. “Many will have to suffer, many will have to die, don’t ask me why” – Bob Marley.

    @Doug: well at least the BBC have been consistent, even though they apparently had 5000 visitors yesterday, and I’m sure none of them would have been convinced… strange that their paymasters are me and you but they seem to take orders from another power.

    Nice of stop the war coalition to stage a demonstration on Saturday so Boris can cool them off and test out his new water cannon.

  12. Bugger (the Panda)

    17 Jul, 2014 - 8:12 pm

    Unless it was trundled over the border and set up with either Ukrainian for Russian radar forces?

    I remain unconvinced on either side. I am a scientist and I try to keep my options open whilst I sift through the options and as much of the evidence as I can or am able to access. It is a reiterative rocess.

    Who I don’t trust one fucking inch, based on my experience in Scotland and their actions in Scotland vis the Referendum is the BBC. Shameful UK Government propagandist. At least with RT I kind of know the line they will take and expect to so. The BBC used to be my font of truth but no longer.

    They’ll be gone soon enough after the vote.

  13. Bugger (the Panda)

    17 Jul, 2014 - 8:12 pm

    and it can’t be a day too soon.

  14. Is there more than one BBC?

    Obviously you don’t class telly, radio, world service, and internet as separate sources.

    Murdoch’s Sky is exempt, because of the Sun Clause and it is a “private organisation” ie it can call anything it likes as “news”, and it can pass anything it likes as “news”. Alas bbc is publicly funded and is suppose to be “accountable”.

    However given the internet (link would have been nice) narrative perhaps could be called the balancing factor to the telly news.

  15. Sorry Peacewisher. I wasn’t talking about you.
    I was talking about what politicians say day after day, every time there is a tragedy.
    Someone needs to write them an alternative.

  16. “Obviously you don’t class telly, radio, world service, and internet as separate sources.”

    Personally I don’t have a television and I don’t fund the BBC.

  17. O/T

    Israel has commenced a ground offensive in Gaza.

    (Sky News)

  18. The 777-200 has had so many problems. Cracks appearing in the fuselage,battery fires etc and then of course a disappearing plane.
    None of the eye witness reports so far have used the word missile. It might just be an accident.
    The BBC is the big news tragedy and their script writers have become more one sided than ever.
    They don’t even care or listen to the critiscism any longer. Just like Govt and Bank corruption,its out in the open and nothing happens.
    We have to pay for the lies they feed us.

  19. No doubt we will be treated to a news conference with a shouty John Kerry soon.

  20. @Dreolin. Yes, I know, and no offence taken!

    BBC Radio 4 surpassed itself this morning with a look at the papers and a quick sentence to say that the pictures on the beach in Palestine were too horrific for the papers to print [or talk about?] Then moved on to the usual bollox headlines…

  21. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    17 Jul, 2014 - 10:13 pm

    Heard the clamor from establishment-type pilots completely dismissing the possibility that it was da plane. Even though photographed near the time of impact (small cloud of black smoke that grew) there was breathless discussions about the possibility Russia downed with missile even though no smoke trail visible in sky. NO discussion about the possibility pilots may have suffered an oxygen failure, or the descent from 35k to 21k. Malaysian airlines limited their comment to ‘lost contact’.

    RT says BUKs deployed to Ukraine, and Russia says plane was outside their effective zone. That seems odd.

    I’m not so sure 777 is the great plane many pilots seem to think it is.

  22. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    17 Jul, 2014 - 10:30 pm

    I saw the news in the am and have been traveling so the updates are just now reaching me. It seems it was a missile based on the photographic evidence. I was, however, struck by the early prognostications that it was a missile without such evidence.

  23. I have been following the progression of the civil war fairly closely.

    At the end of June the Ukrainian air defence unit A-1402 based in Donetz surrendered (or changed sides to) the rebels. This unit operated a Soviet era BUKS missile system. Old technology but quite capable of shooting down planes at that height.

    The rebels put that unit into use last week when they shot down the Ukrainian AN-26 transport aircraft. Ukraine blamed Russia for the downing presumably to get the EU to impose more sanctions, but there is video on YouTube clearly showing the missile rising vertically to intercept the plane.

    In response to that incident Ukraine stopped military flights and closed air space to civilian traffic. They resumed military flights yesterday, but clearly they knew the rebels have a BUKS.

    The rebels have no air traffic control capabilities, and no civilian radar. It is all either destroyed or still in the hands of Ukrainian troops who still occupy Lugansk airport. (under siege)

    All civilian air traffic control is managed by the Ukrainian Government in Kiev.
    Now this is where it gets interesting, and no doubt some of you will violently disagree with me.

    If you look at the flight plan of MAS17 today you will see it goes directly over the war zone.
    http://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140717/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK

    Compare that with the same flight yesterday, and all the other carriers flights and you see they are routed quite a bit further South
    http://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140716/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK

    I have a pretty low opinion of the Kiev regime. It is full of fascists and neo-Nazis and has been engaged in warfare using heavy weapons against its own cities causing thousands of civilian deaths. I find it quite believable that they would deliberately route civilian traffic over a war zone in the hope the rebels shoot it down and draw the US and Nato into their civil war.

  24. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    17 Jul, 2014 - 10:48 pm

    Except Putin took that same flight path recently, Derek, but I understand your drift.

    Interestingly, many think MH370 was a diversional story intended to take public attention away from the real facts on the ground.

  25. “At the end of June the Ukrainian air defence unit A-1402 based in Donetz surrendered (or changed sides to) the rebels. This unit operated a Soviet era BUKS missile system. Old technology but quite capable of shooting down planes at that height.”

    That makes some of the accounts plausible.

  26. Russia found guilty of supporting/supplying the rebels on the high court of Newsnight. Ukraine regime presented as very reasonable and democratic. I’m sure we’ll soon see the “International Community” impose more sanctions. No doubt some will seek to use this as an excuse to take back Crimea for Ukraine. Dangerous times.

  27. Derek

    If you look at the flight plan of MAS17 today you will see it goes directly over the war zone.

    How can we ascertain that the tracking (in your link) is carried out through conversational Radar systems?

    Otherwise dependent on the geolocation of the “trackers” we will get an error which could explain the anomaly.

    The fact remains that Boeing is trying to put the lipstick on their pig and blame the Johnny foreigner, or it could be some other factor.

    However the thugs in charge of Kiev are not getting the bad press that Yanukovych got, when he ordered the police to intervene in Maidan Nezalezhnosti which is now Euro Maidan!

    We decide who is democratic and who is not, the current democratic leadership in Ukraine can kill as many as those foreign daigos they like, they are still democratic. In fact the said democratic leadership in Kiev needs a helping hand by painting the dissenters as terrorists.

  28. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    17 Jul, 2014 - 11:16 pm

    Someone baited the trap. Things weren’t proceeding fast enough. Important players were given the technology to complete the scenario for quick and certain purposes, and the blood sacrifice for Western objectives were sent in, unaware. Can we trust any source?

  29. I’m sure we’ll soon see the “International Community” impose more sanctions.

    Frankly I believe serves the Russians right! Those Russian assholes have been capitulating since 2003, what were they expecting? A pat on their back and a cigar?

    Putin should have put down the beast when he could instead; he went on the telly and started to pontificate; “the world needs Amerika”! Yeah right like it needs a hole in the head, and as it can be seen everyone is getting to have one at this rate, whether they like or not.

  30. Grim news to wake up to. I logged on to this site first, and hadn’t read the MSM. Already ‘US intelligence’ is claiming a surface to air missile was the cause. Also claiming it occurred over ‘separatist’ held territory, so we can of course be led to infer which side is going to be blamed.

    These people have no shame. It’s been two minutes, and they have a ‘position’. It may be true, though the swiftness of their response should make us sceptical, but I’m more taken by the fact that the agencies really are a 24/7 Sauron like eye, always ready with some malicious scheme, lie, or spin. These agencies are a bigger threat to my freedom than a bunch of idiots in a Mosque in Pakistan – by a long shot.

  31. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    17 Jul, 2014 - 11:32 pm

    One thing is for sure. I won’t be flying anymore. Thankfully, I have that option. I don’t want to be fodder for further excuses for hegemony. It’s a lose/lose.

  32. Americans or American backed forces blow up another plane in order to justify an invasion.

  33. It appears it went further north than usual to skirt round large storms. I am sure of that and have it from my own source – a neutral aviation one. Looks like that’s how it happened to be in wrong place at wrong time.

  34. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    17 Jul, 2014 - 11:46 pm

    Craig; Were you as certain as the Media, that it was a missile strike as early as 4 pm your time?

  35. Craig

    Looks like that’s how it happened to be in wrong place at wrong time.

    What are the protocols for aviation routes in the war zones?

    What constitutes a war zone? (who decides it is)

    Can this incident be a precursor to a massive crack down on the area and wholesale slaughter of the residents in the area?

  36. Fedup

    The protocol was that planes should fly above 30,000 feet. It was. That’s six miles up, thought to be safe. You cannot incidentally see the thing six miles up, certainly not its livery, so the idea that its livery was mistaken is a very silly theory.

    I was not sure at 4pm that it was a missile strike. Not sure why that was asked. I am not sure now but it seems likely.

    I don’t think your last sentence is at all likely.

    Putin’s statement is very interesting indeed. To me, this is the clearest indication that the plane was brought down by accident by pro-Russian forces. If that is the case, it is exactly what he would say. If he believed it was the Ukrainian government, he would be saying something very different:

    “In this regard, I want to note that this tragedy would not have happened if there were peace on this land, if the military actions had not been renewed in southeast Ukraine. And, certainly, the state over whose territory this occurred bears responsibility for this awful tragedy.”

  37. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    18 Jul, 2014 - 12:10 am

    There is an extant thread, though barely alive, on MH 370

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

  38. Who benefits from it? Russia certainly don’t. Russia are winning the strategic war and rumours of gathered data re 911 to be released to the US public. Some US officials already calling for military assistance to Ukraine and BBC already selling the story of Russian blame.

  39. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    18 Jul, 2014 - 12:12 am

  40. CIA has issued a fake tape, necessarily prepared in advance, of an alleged telephone conversation between what purports to be resistance commander Bezler and a colonel in the GRU:

    http://youtu.be/VnuHxAR01Jo

    This absurd exchange invites us to believe that an unsupervised group of alleged Kazaks, based at “the Chernukino checkpoint,” had possession of the only air defence system, the 9K37Buk, in the possession of the anti-fascist resistance – which boasts, at most, a handful of said system – that could conceivably have reached the Malaysian airliner at 33,000 feet.

    Believe that, and I have a bridge you might be interested in.

    Epic CIA fail.

  41. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    18 Jul, 2014 - 12:14 am

    “I was not sure at 4pm that it was a missile strike. Not sure why that was asked. I am not sure now but it seems likely.”

    Is that addressed to me? Let me clarify the question. Do you have any speculation as the the Media pre-empting the available evidence with the pronouncement that a missile strike was the likely suspect?

    It is the salient question, if I may be so bold as to ask.

  42. Simon

    The point is, it was a mistake. Several military planes have been shot down recently in the same area. It was further North than passenger planes normally are, and was mistaken for a military plane by the system operator. The argument that the pro-Russians would not have done it as they do not benefit, does not apply if they did it by accident.

    Look at what Putin said.

  43. Ben

    The media always jump in with a prognostication – like how they all immediately reported the Breivik killings as a Muslim terrorist attack. Sometimes they are right, sometimes wrong. It does not in the least prove that they had coordinated anything in advance.

    Given that three planes have been shot down by missiles in this area recently, it was a pretty natural punt for them to take.

  44. I think it’s too coincidental and I don’t believe in coincidences where the US government are concerned.
    If it is an accident the US won’t believe their luck, as awful as that is.

  45. Yes, it is indeed very unfortunate for the pro-Russian side and the glee is going to be pretty unpleasant. But I wouldn’t call it a “coincidence”. Plane gets shot down just where planes have been getting shot down for several weeks is not terrifically unlikely if you think about it. The US can get lucky occasionally.

  46. True, statistically if there have been numerous planes shot down then maybe on average a mistake can be made. But the timing looks suspect, airliners travel near war zones relatively frequently and are easily identifiable and also at higher altitude than fighter planes I’m informed. The taped conversation is something the CIA have been caught out with before and the US have been strongly linked with false flag type operations in the past. Looks suspect

  47. Mod. Why are you zapping my comment? Too many links?

    Here it is without them.

    MH-17

    My heart goes out to all the victims and thier families.

    No shortage of possibilities. No firm evidence so far.

    Ukrainian Military incompetence?

    Search: Siberia Airlines 1812.

    Pretext Manufacture for US/Nato military action against Anti-Kiev forces ?

    Search: Operation Northwood.

    An attempt to assassinate Putin?

    Search: President Putin’s plane might have been the target for Ukrainian missile

    Anti Kiev militia or Russian military? Can anyone post evidence for these theories?

    Any other possibilities?

    Who was responsible for setting the flight-path? Why would they choose to send it over territory where aircraft are being shot down almost daily?

    Cui bono?

    Let’s see which parties seek a thorough independent investigation and which try to derail it.

    Right now it seems only the perpetrators really know the answer for sure.

  48. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    18 Jul, 2014 - 12:46 am

    I will be looking for the evidence they were driven south by the weather.

  49. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    18 Jul, 2014 - 12:57 am

    “Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak said Friday at a press conference that the MH17’s flight route was declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), adding that the International Air Transportation Association had stated that the airspace the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions.”

    Then there’s Najib, the useful idiot PM/Dicktator who so competently aided in the search for MH370.

    “He also said the Malaysia Airlines had confirmed that the plane did not make a distress call.” Thanks for that prescience, Naj.

    http://english.cri.cn/12394/2014/07/18/2702s836553.htm

  50. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    18 Jul, 2014 - 12:58 am

    Gee. That took twelve minutes of research.

  51. @Derek: 1. RT is a Russia-funded media outlet. 2. Flight routes yesterday and today: such minor differences are normal, in the case of these two flights you can see them for example over central Poland. But compare any two long-distance flight routes over different days and you will that such route differences are standard.

    Now, what is EXTREMELY interesting, the Kiev government has just published a purported interecept of two or three phone/radio conversations between rebel commanders.

    http://nyti.ms/1tXHv0D

    Its authenticity cannot be independently verified, however I would find it hard to believe that such a professional recording can be made up within just a few hours after the crash (including ID details of one of the killed passengers). In short: I tend to believe it is an authentic intercept, and the rebels are the most likely culprits behind the downing.

  52. Could it be something else entirely?

    Who has Malaysia or Malaysian Airlines pissed off recently?

    Could the plane have been taken down in this zone to make it look like a Russia/Ukraine matter when it may be something or someone else entirely?

    I have no answers of course just throwing it out there…

  53. Well, Poroshenko decided that bit of airspace was so dangerous two days ago that he suspended military flights for 24 hours. Why then were commercial airliners still flying over?
    Surely the kind of weaponry alleged to have been used is smart enough to distinguish between military and civilian squawks, (unless the pilot decided tot turn them off again)?

  54. BrianFujisan

    18 Jul, 2014 - 3:45 am

    From abominable behaviour… To Downright DANGEROUSLY abominable behaviour….

    I think David Ike is correct… Fucking Lizards Rule… and this Lizard is far from concerned for her own safety…where do they crawl to…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkTRJgDkNFg&feature=youtu.be&list=UUwBUwaTxztTPuSzIi2cjimw

    Also The slip up….

    No Western leader exemplified this sad state of affairs more than US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton as they competed with one another for the best gloat over Gaddafi’s gruesome murder. Clinton beat them all when she said over CBS TV ‘We came, we saw, he died’ in a pathetic attempt to paraphrase Julius Caesar whilst laughing away in jubilation over the latest murder of yet another third world leader.

    Sickeningly, her host couldn’t hide her glee either as she too joined in the fun. And this on a TV network that brags about journalistic values and all the hogwash that goes along with such snow-white claims. So much for an unbiased American media!

    But there was a slip. CBS was conducting a formal interview with Clinton when her aides interrupted the recording to convey the ‘breaking news’ of Gaddafi’s murder. As she, her aides and the TV crew joked over Gaddafi’s murder the reporter slipped in a question. ‘Did your recent surprise visit to Libya have anything to do with Gaddafi’s death?” ‘No’ replied Clinton. Then she rolled her eyes adjusted her jacket and confessed ‘I am sure it did’.

    http://www.sundaytimes.lk/111106/Timestwo/int010.html

  55. The USA state that their intelligence confirm it was shot down. ONE expert on BBC said that repeated warnings were given about using the airspace and that there’s been 18 instances of passenger airliners being shot down in the past 30 years. (didn’t the Americans shoot one down?) The Ukrainians say they have a tape confirming it was the ‘Russian’ Ukrainians and released the tape to the press. Hilary Clinton’s attitude to this however genuinely scares me. I fear that this COULD be escalated beyond our worst fears, in fact, if I didn’t know better I’d say the Americans were quite happy about it..

  56. @Peacewisher:

    But the black box will be Malaysia’s, just like before:

    http://www2.nst.com.my/black-box-belongs-to-malaysia-says-icao-1.567337

  57. listening live to bbc world service, i was struck by the non-stop reporting of what Interfax had to say, including that Interfax was reporting the plane was shot down by a BUK missile. this was the first mention of the BUK.

    however, in this BBC timeline, which is absolutely full of INTERFAX stuff, BBC changes the attribution for the BUK missile report.

    BBC: As it happened: Malaysian plane crash in Ukraine
    (FIRST ENTRY)
    16:24: Reports suggest a passenger plane has crashed in eastern Ukraine. The early reports come from an “aviation source” who was quoted by the privately-owned Russian Interfax news agency…
    16:50: An advisor to the Ukrainian interior minister, Anton Gerashenko, says the plane was flying at an altitude of 10,000 metres (33,000 feet) when it was “hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher”, in a post on his Facebook page, according to the Associated Press…
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-28354787

    am i alone in thinking BBC was quoting Interfax non-stop in order to give the impression Russia was putting out all the stuff being reported? i know when i hear “Interfax”, i think of the Soviet Union. of course, Interfax has a murky ownership these days & there is an Interfax Ukraine which, judging by most of what BBC was reporting, seemed more likely to be the source of the pro-Kiev/anti-Russian content.

    anyway,
    Russia has the black box for now;
    the plane came out of Schiphol;
    the BRICS development bank has just been announced;
    the ground offensive has begun in Gaza.

    may the passengers & crew of MF17 rest in peace. sincere condolences to their families and friends.

    btw the Interfax report that Putin’s plane may have been in the same region has been debunked:

    RT: At the same time, there have been reports contradicting Interfax’s report that was the first and the only media source to publish the news, saying that Presidential plane was not flying over Ukraine at the same time.
    As a source told Gazeta.ru online news portal, Putin’s plane does take off from Vnukovo-3 [the terminal that accepts business jets], but the president does not fly over the conflict-gripped neighboring country.
    “Putin has only one jet – Board One, he does not fly other planes. This plane always takes off from Vnukovo-3, but the presidential plane have not been flying over Ukraine for a while,” the source at Vnukovo-3 terminal said.
    President Putin was on his way from Brazil, where he attended the BRICS summit, to Moscow.
    http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/

  58. Tony Cartalucci quotes from NY Daily News, re “Interfax, Ukranian news agency”, but the reference seems to have been scrubbed in the original link – u can link from ICH:

    Tony Cartalucci: Cui Bono?
    Flight MH17 Down Over Ukraine
    The New York Daily News reported in an article titled, “Malaysia Airlines plane feared shot down in Ukraine near Russian border,” that:
    “Anton Gerashenko, an adviser to Ukraine’s Interior Minister, said on Facebook that the plane was flying at an altitude of 33,000 feet when it was hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher, reported Interfax, a Ukranian news agency”…
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39135.htm

    everywhere a google result shows up any reference to Interfax Ukraine, it seems the reference has been scrubbed, (at least the Ukrainian bit) or has been replaced by Russian-owned Interfac, but National Post does still have it in a tweet by Olaf Koens, a Dutch
    journalist, way down in this link:

    tweet:
    Olaf Koens @obk 1,42am
    Interfax Ukraine reports plane was shot down using ‘Buk’ missle system.
    Medium range surface-to-air missile system
    http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/17/malaysian-passenger-plane-crashes-in-ukraine-near-russian-border-with-295-people-aboard/

    if all news has been coming out of Kiev, via Interfax Ukraine (owned by whom? run by whom?), the public should be told.

  59. Ангрысоба

    18 Jul, 2014 - 8:05 am

    This looks like a claim of responsibility, by someone called Igor Strelkov:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bswg7UGCQAAtv47.jpg:large

    In this tweet he seems to be bragging about shooting down an An-26. The tweet, and I think the account was deleted once they realized what they had actually shot down.

    http://www.news.com.au/world/prorussian-separatist-commander-igor-the-terrible-strelkov-allegedly-appears-on-mobile-phone-video-of-mh17-crash-saying-that-was-a-blast/story-fndir2ev-1226993406156

  60. The most sensible and pertinent comment is Sofia’a.

    ‘Cui bono?

    Let’s see which parties seek a thorough independent investigation and which try to derail it.

    Right now it seems only the perpetrators really know the answer for sure.’

    I hope Nuland, McCain, Ashton, Biden and the rest are feeling chastened this morning. What goes around, comes around. McCain was one of the first to leap in with some unfortunate comment on this tragedy and Biden later.

    After a very frightening night here from 1am onwards with a violent electrical storm, I feel shattered physically, stunned too and greatly saddened by all this awful news. Gaza is almost forgotten.

    The vortex sucks ever louder and stronger.

  61. Mistakes happen, such as the USS Vincennes(see Wiki)

    In 1996, the United States and Iran reached “an agreement in full and final settlement of all disputes, differences, claims, counterclaims” relating to the incident at the International Court of Justice.[7] As part of the settlement, the United States agreed to pay US$61.8 million, an average of $213,103.45 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims. However, the United States has never admitted responsibility, nor apologized to Iran.[8]

    To this day, Iran Air still uses flight number IR655 on the Tehran–Dubai route as a memorial to the victims, contrary to the informal convention amongst many other airlines that discontinue flight numbers associated with tragedies.

  62. ‘In the last two weeks, the plane flew roughly the same path 14 times, traversing the diagonal length of Ukraine to the Sea of Azov close to Crimea. But Thursday’s route deviated slightly. The Boeing 777 went farther north than typical. It’s unclear why.

    A map shows the flight path Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 typically takes between Amsterdam and Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, and the path it took when it went down in Ukraine July 17, 2014.

    http://cbsnews2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2014/07/17/09f87e72-014b-4da7-b17a-2bbb27efcec6/thumbnail/620×350/216c1356877e71c27f31923afe9f6e81/malaysia-flight-17-peguesmap.jpg

    Because of the conflict in the region, on April 3 the Federal Aviation Administration issued what’s called a “notice to airman” prohibiting U.S. commercial flight operations in the airspace over Crimea and portions of the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov. But the notice did not cover the airspace where the Malaysia Airlines jet crashed.’

    /..

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-airlines-flight-17-deviated-slightly-from-typical-flight-path/

  63. The BBC keeps asking if anything similar has happened before. The “experts” mention North Korea, but not one has yet breathed the words, “USS Vincennes”. Strange.

  64. Ref above. Craig’s source says the weather conditions caused the route change.

    The plane was flying at an altitude of 10kms, that is 1km below the range of the stratosphere 11kms-50kms above the earth’s surface.

    Any meteorologists here?

  65. Briar They can’t be worse than Sky who had that repellent warmongers’ stenographer on from the early hours intermittently. The TV is off and is staying off.

    Thoughts with the relatives of those killed and wounded in Gaza and with the relatives of the those killed in the plane. What a waste of precious life.

  66. I missed out the name. Robert Fox of the Standard.
    http://www.standard.co.uk/biography/robert-fox-defence-correspondent

    and in the Guardian too.

    His Raison d’être

    The war has started
    Robert Fox, Defence Correspondent and David Taylor
    19 March 2003
    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/the-war-has-started-7221096.html

  67. Mary wrote: (possibly quoting someone)

    “In the last two weeks, the plane flew roughly the same path 14 times, traversing the diagonal length of Ukraine to the Sea of Azov close to Crimea. But Thursday’s route deviated slightly. The Boeing 777 went farther north than typical. It’s unclear why.”

    The plane was 200 km north east of the normal route route at the time of the crash. That is hardly a slight departure, especially when it means the plane entered a zone of known military activity. A flight controller, #Spainbuca on twitter, working at Kiev Borispol also states that radar indicates that the plane was accompanied by 2 military fighters up to about 3 minutes before the crash, when it was traveling at 33,000 feet (~ 11 km).

    The only ground-air missile systems known to be in the militia’s possession are MANPADS and Strela-10, with ranges of 5km and 3.5 km respectively. The obviously could not have hit the airliner. The Ukrainian army is known to have Buk systems which can reach altitudes of > 14 km. The fighters accompanying the airliner would be capable of carrying air-to-air missiles, which would have no problem hitting an undefended civilian aircraft.

    As always, cui bono?

  68. Ooops, a typo in above message. I meant to write

    “The plane was 200 km north east of the normal route at the time of the crash.”

    Also I forgot to include a useful link summarizing multiple threads of evidence relating to the MH 17 incident.

    A third possibility for the speculators. Perhaps this was a Pan Am 103 false flag operation rather than a missile strike. Aircraft wreckage reconstruction should help distinguish between an internal luggage bay explosion and an external missile strike.

  69. It was a CBS report Yonatan dated at 9 hrs earlier when I posted the link.

    If the implications in your comments are true, is it not chilling that 300 lives can be sacrificed so easily? Is it normal for a civilian aircraft to be accompanied by two military fighters?

    This morning Flight MH17 left Amsterdam as normal. Weird. Can’t imagine it was very full.

  70. Steve Crickmore

    18 Jul, 2014 - 11:39 am

    It is the deletion of the gloating claim from the ‘rebels’ to have shot down a Ukrainian transport aircraft at the same time as the MH aircraft was shot down that is more telling. Anyone that wants more evidence is trying to avoid the facts. http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/543733-mh17-down-near-donetsk-9.html

  71. Ангрысоба

    18 Jul, 2014 - 11:54 am

    This is apparently Igor Strelkov’s VK account, now deleted:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20140717155906/http://vk.com/strelkov_info?w=wall-57424472_7256

    And this is Donetsk’s People’s Republic’s claim to have been in possession of a “Buk” anti-aircraft missile system, now also deleted:

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:NF6E5FCKFNEJ:https://twitter.com/dnrpress/status/483248037629018112

    And then Putin goes and blames Ukraine for the military operations which he says led to this happening.

    Instead of all this swivel-eyed “cui bono”-ing, which suggests some supernaturally intelligent manipulators of the world, maybe it is better to use a bit of common sense.

  72. Ah ffs the MSM reaction has been dismal. My current fav: “We knew Russia had invaded Ukraine. We just didn’t care.”

    That’s a headline. In an actual newspaper. Presumably they have journalists, sub-editors, and editors. How the fuck this passes muster is beyond me. It’s a simple, verifiable fact that Russia did not invade Ukraine. Didn’t happen. Not true. Factually wrong. Bullshit. And yet there it is, a headline in one of Australia’s largest media organs. It could well have been The Onion.

    As soon as those Ukranian fascists took vital roles in Government, it was clear that this was going horribly wrong. I’m not a foreign policy wonk, yet I – like most people here – knew fine well this was a fuck-up. Never. Ever. Trust. A. Fascist. That’s History 101. And yet our elected leaders ignore this obvious fact. Doesn’t take a genius to know why.

    Currently, Oz idiot Tony Abbott is wibbling about crimes. He didn’t say war-crime, to my knowledge, because he knows what NATO has done in … everywhere. He merely said ‘crime’. A more gutless use of language is hard to imagine. Abbott is another one of … Blairpaths. Alas.

  73. Ангрысоба

    18 Jul, 2014 - 12:25 pm

    Brendan: “Currently, Oz idiot Tony Abbott is wibbling about crimes. He didn’t say war-crime, to my knowledge, because he knows what NATO has done in … everywhere. He merely said ‘crime’. A more gutless use of language is hard to imagine.”

    You don’t think the blowing up of a civilian airliner merits the word “crime”?

  74. The You Tube clip recently released by Kiev appears to implicate Don Cossack separatists under the leadership of a Mykola Kozitsyn in the shooting down of the Malaysian airliner-

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17/ukraine-releases-youtube-clip-proving-rebels-shot-down-malaysian-flight-mh-17

    Or does it ?

  75. The downing of Malaysian Boeing 777 flight MH17 is understood to be beneficial to NATO and its proxy regime in Kiev as government forces succumb to the Ukraine resistance.

    NATO’s attempts to bait Russia into moving into Ukrainian territory and shift global opinion against Moscow have repeatedly failed and US sanctions against Russia prove impotent and fruitless.

    US, NATO and the West in consequence have resorted to deception, duplicity and disinformation. Secret services could essentially plant plastic explosives on the Malaysian aircraft in a number of ways including the ‘underwear bomber’ type scenario. This equates to the slyness of using poison to murder.

    Objective thinking reveals anti-government fighters using Man-Portable Air Defense Systems can’t reach the height flown(33,000ft) by MH17 at the location of the downing and sophisticated Buk radar guided, tracked-vehicle mounted, anti-aircraft missile systems that could easily be traced back to Russia also need extensive expertise to maintain, calibrate, track and fire.

    Russia’s strongest card thus far has been its restraint and NATO’s inability to implicate it in the chaos NATO itself started by backing armed Neo-Nazis during the “Euromaidan” or civil unrest in Ukraine, which began on the night of 21 November 2013 with public protests in Maidan Nezalezhnosti (“Independence Square”) in Kiev, demanding closer European integration.

    Cui bono? – – Russia would not throw that card away to pass along weapon systems to fighters that were already successfully downing Ukrainian military aircraft with man-portable missiles.

    That the downed aircraft is yet another Malaysian Boeing 777 the second one this year to be lost under extraordinary circumstances has covertly gained maximum attention for propagandists across the West. They have the world’s full and undivided attention with which to pin the blame on Russia and anti-Kiev fighters in eastern Ukraine.

  76. Well I never! Angrysoba is back on here.

    Ангрысоба=Angrysoba

  77. “You don’t think the blowing up of a civilian airliner merits the word “crime”?”

    No. Do you?

  78. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    18 Jul, 2014 - 2:16 pm

    RT is suggesting Putin was the target, but that would mean Igor has changed sides.

    http://www.news.com.au/world/prorussian-separatist-commander-igor-the-terrible-strelkov-allegedly-appears-on-mobile-phone-video-of-mh17-crash-saying-that-was-a-blast/story-fndir2ev-1226993406156

    The question remains why MH17 had permission to fly over a war zone where BUKS had been deployed by Russian separatists who had acquired the weapon from Ukrainian forces.

  79. Why has it become accepted that the plane was brought down by a surface to air missile? They haven’t started analysing the wreckage yet. Not sure why a missile from another plane has been discounted already.

    If there were witnesses to a missile hitting the plane it would be useful to know how many missiles were seen. If it was just the one then it won’t have come from a BUKS launcher. According to a chap from Jane’s, interviewed by BBC Radio 5 last night, BUKS only fires missiles in salvos of two or four.

  80. Ангрысоба

    18 Jul, 2014 - 3:10 pm

    Mark G: Objective thinking reveals anti-government fighters using Man-Portable Air Defense Systems can’t reach the height flown(33,000ft) by MH17 at the location of the downing and sophisticated Buk radar guided, tracked-vehicle mounted, anti-aircraft missile systems that could easily be traced back to Russia also need extensive expertise to maintain, calibrate, track and fire.

    Don’t you think that the fact the rebels have already bragged about capturing a Buk, the fact that the rebels have already shot down, and bragged about shooting down military planes, the fact that they bragged about shooting down this plane (then deleted their accounts), and the fact that they were recorded reporting that they had shot down the plane only to realize later what they have done, and the fact that Putin blames the Ukrainian government for the broader situation in which this happened rather than pointing at the Ukrainian government itself speaks volumes about what is the most likely scenario here?

    And as for the idea that extensive expertise is needed to fire the SAMs, some of the rebels themselves could easily be defectors from the Ukrainian military or be assisted by Russian forces.

  81. Ангрысоба

    18 Jul, 2014 - 3:12 pm

    Brendan: “No. Do you?”

    Yes, of course.

  82. Uzbek in the UK

    18 Jul, 2014 - 3:15 pm

    @Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    “RT is suggesting Putin was the target, but that would mean Igor has changed sides.”

    WTF you are talking about mate? Ukrainian military gave up part of their country and could barely defend another part and here you are supporting RT in claim that Ukrainians were about to shoot down putin’s airplane. Do you even realize what consequences would then follow? Pro-putin fighters have successfully been shooting down Ukrainian military airplanes, Strelkov has claimed that they have successfully shot down yet another Ukrainian military airplane (just before it turned out to be commercial airline and then removed this claim), pro-putin’s posting pictures of BUKs at their disposal and yet all they needed is deny that they have done it, and you bought it.

    Open your eyes. It is very hard to see black cat in dark room, especially with closed eyes and brainwashed brain.

  83. Uzbek in the UK

    18 Jul, 2014 - 3:33 pm

    Mr Murray,

    I totally agree that Putin’s words speak for themselves. He for sure knows which side shot this airplane and if it was Ukrainian military his tone would have been very different. It reminds me Uzbekistan in 2005. Complete denial by putin to accept that people who were shot in Andijan were not terrorist but desperate people who had nothing to feed their children and got tired of corruption and unlimited power of local officials.

    It also remind me Assad’s tactics (no doubt mastered by putin) to deny having chemical weapons and then giving up huge quantities of it to the UN inspectors.

    Putin is a KGB officer. This people before reaching high ranks got their brand new brain free of any virtues and full of high spirit propaganda. This brain kept KGB going even when it was obvious that all the foundations of Communist state were mythical and failed to materialised and top of the government got corrupted. This brain keeps current FSB (former KGB) going despite the facts that Russia is today perfectly functioning Mafia state. Everything from top to bottom in Russia operates exactly like criminal organisation. Some of well known Russian Oligarchs have even well known criminal past not to mentioned well known Alisher Usmanov (some say one of putin’s best friends).

  84. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    18 Jul, 2014 - 3:39 pm

    Well Uzbek, you missed the point. That would be cognitive dissonance to believe based on the evidence that SBU collected regarding Igor’s recorded voice.

    But what do you make of MH17’s permission to fly over a war zone where warnings were given, and most flights scrupulously avoid that airspace?

  85. The Zionist-controlled western mainstream media, like in the case of 9/11 – accused some Muslims being involved in the disappearance of the Flight 370, based on the theory that “two of the passengers on the plane were Iranians”. But what about Nikolai Brodsky, the Russian Jew aboard MH370 or another Jew by the name “Andy” (reported by Israeli newspapers Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post) who traveled by the same flight one day earlier but was not allowed to board the return flight under the advice of his “observant Jew” travel agent. This reminds me the 2002 news item at the Jewish site Beliefnet – reporting how a “mysterious” Jew saved the lives of nine fellow Jews at the WTC on September 11, 2001.

    On March 11, 2014, Adam Taylor posted pictures of those two Iranian passengers at the Jewish Washington Post. However, the keen readers found out the two “terrorists” were carrying same bag, same shoes, same pants, standing in the same location on floor – which proves that the pictures were fixed.

    In order to cover CIA/Mossad foot-prints, western media yet came up with another story. It claims that the plane’s Muslim pilot could have committed suicide and took the crew and passengers with him. The CIA director, John Brenner, an Israel-Firster, said “the possibility that the plane had been brought down in a terrorist attack could not be ruled out. But no claims of responsibility over the missing jet had been confirmed or corroborated.”

    Brenner, however, was at loss to explain how come 14 countries, 43 ships and 58 aircraft which are involved in the search of plane have failed to locate it so far.

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/03/16/what-happened-to-malaysian-flight-370/

  86. Ангрысоба

    18 Jul, 2014 - 3:45 pm

    Ben: But what do you make of MH17′s permission to fly over a war zone where warnings were given, and most flights scrupulously avoid that airspace?

    It’s fairly unremarkable, apparently, as many flights have been going through that airspace:

    British Airways has been avoiding eastern Ukraine for some time, the BBC understands. But many airlines continued to fly over it. According to Flight radar24, which monitors live flight paths, the airlines that most frequently flew over Donetsk in eastern Ukraine in the last week were: Aeroflot 86 (flights), Singapore Airlines 75, Ukraine International Airlines 62, Lufthansa 56, and Malaysian 48. It was not necessarily a risky approach. The chance of a rocket reaching above 32,000 feet was considered remote, says Sylvia Spruck Wrigley, author of Why Planes Crash.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-28364306

  87. Ангрысоба

    18 Jul, 2014 - 3:46 pm

    Rehmat: The Zionist-controlled western mainstream media, like in the case of 9/11 …

    Does anyone really read beyond opening statements like that?

    Or do many people only read posts that begin like that?

    Hmmm…

  88. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    18 Jul, 2014 - 3:51 pm

    “The chance of a rocket reaching above 32,000 feet was considered remote, says Sylvia Spruck Wrigley, author of Why Planes Crash.”

    Yes, Manpads only have a range of 2-3k.

    And yet the ICAO was uninformed that the separatists had Buks in their possession….

  89. Uzbek in the UK

    18 Jul, 2014 - 3:54 pm

    @ Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    I was referring to Strelkov’s own VK account which he used on numerous occasions claiming victorious shooting down of Ukrainian military airplanes and helicopters. Just before it was known that the latest shot airplane was not military Ukrainian but commercial with 289 people on board, Strelkov praised his men for shooting down yet another Ukrainain military airplane and claiming that Ukrainians have been warned not to fly over Donbass. The message as you know it was deleted and account was closed immediately after we have all learnt of this tragical mistake. I was not referring to the conversation which could easily be made up.

    From what has become obvious since yesterday this airplane was not the only one flying over eastern Ukraine. It is the shortest route and it is no surprise that commercial airlines take this route to avoid extra cost. Why was he flying exactly over rebel controlled area? I do not know. Probably to avoid storm as Mr Murray suggested. If full international investigation is allowed (unfortunately what was denied to Uzbeks in 2005 with full support of Russia) we shall know the true sometime from now. But I doubt that Russia will allow this without ensuring that whatever is established supports their side of the story. Just like millions of cruel Nazis fighting free loving eastern Ukrainians or like Crimeans referendum. Time passes by KGB methods remain unchanged. Propaganda is the greatest leverage.

  90. Thanks TFS for the link; A selfhating Jew makes a fool of himself

    All the while another “Angry” (catchy name angry), evidently there is a shift change, although the inanity of the “comments” remain a constant.

  91. Uzbek in the UK

    18 Jul, 2014 - 3:59 pm

    @Ангрысоба

    Well yet another evidence of someone (Ben in this case) looking into facts with closed eyes and using brainwashed brain.

    In general what else would one expect from people trusting and citing RT. Bull shit and nothing else.

  92. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    18 Jul, 2014 - 4:05 pm

    “In general what else would one expect from people trusting and citing RT”

    Are you deliberately obtuse, or is just reading comprehension? Reading glasses?

  93. If full international investigation is allowed (unfortunately what was denied to Uzbeks in 2005 with full support of Russia) we shall know the true sometime from now.

    Uzbek- this is a start at least

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28361908

    ‘It also remind me Assad’s tactics (no doubt mastered by putin) to deny having chemical weapons and then giving up huge quantities of it to the UN inspectors.’

    My recollection is that Assad was silent on his regime possessing chemical weapons prior to the UN intervention but always denied USING them against the rebels.

  94. Ангрысоба

    18 Jul, 2014 - 4:16 pm

    Uzbek in the UK: Well yet another evidence of someone (Ben in this case) looking into facts with closed eyes and using brainwashed brain.

    In general what else would one expect from people trusting and citing RT. Bull shit and nothing else.

    This is sadly true. If one of the separatists were to shoot someone and post a picture of the body on Twitter with the caption “I’m glad I shot the bastard”, this would still not be seen as meaningful evidence for some people here. If RT made a programme saying that the photograph never existed and that the person was shot by a Ukrainian who mistake the victim for Putin, then many commenters would agree and search for the Zionist connection.

  95. Yes, we shall have to wait to see who can manufacture the most plausable truth.

    On an unrelated matter, Craig, I tried using the BBC complaints website that you recommended some time ago. It was clearly designed to be as irritating to use as possible, page after page of useless questions, no doubt meant to wear down the patience of the most persistent person, some cleaver person needs to write an automated script to negotiate these pages quickly. I get the impression the BBC does not want to hear from the Licence payer.

  96. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    18 Jul, 2014 - 4:41 pm

    Mis-identifying airframes is reason enough to avoid flying on passenger airplanes. It’s just not safe to travel anymore.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

  97. Craig,

    It would be interesting to hear your view on what extent (if any) you think the current Kiev government is fascist or neo-nazi. And also on the legitimacy (or not) of the current government and how it came to power (particularly, in view of the relevant Ukrainian law and constitutional norm).

    Up to and during the Euro-Maidan events I got the impression that, though there were neo-nazi elements involved, they formed a very small part of the total opposition to the previous government (perhaps no different than the proportion of far-right supporters in the general population). I’ve seen extensive footage of everyone from grandmothers, to young mothers with children, to local business owners, supporting and aiding both non-violent protesters and anti-government fighters in and around the Maidan. It seemed rather hard to read as a fascist uprising at the time.

    Was this a fair interpretation at the time? Has anything changed since?

    Having read Askold Krushelnycky’s ‘An Orange Revolution’ some years ago, the impression I got was that the Ukraine – more so than any leaning to the left/right or east/west – was really just struggling out from the interference of more powerful nations, particularly in the wake of WW2 and then Soviet occupation. But also that there as a secondary tendency towards thinking of itself (and wanting to be, for the most part) a European nation. Has the country changed that much in the last ten years? Or perhaps this impression was always wrong?

    Has there always been a large Russian integrationist portion of the population? A had previously read, from more than one source* – that though there was a relatively small percentage of the population in Crimea and the east that preferred greater autonomy or a federated union – that very few want any sort of union with Russia or the break-up of Ukraine. Or has Ukraine been highly polarised for the last several decades?

    Your previous observations on the history of Russia and its former empire have been very enlightening. (Essentially re why the borders are where they are**.) Perhaps you can shed more light here?

    * Sorry, I can’t give links – this was a good while back.

    ** http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/06/the_killings_in/

  98. Craig’s right. Putin’s comment says it all. He certainly knows what happened and if it was anybody other than his boys he’d be saying so very clearly. As it is, he knows it was his lot but he needs to wait to see how much of the evidence they can clean up before he can spin a story.

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