Crashed Egyptair Flight 450


I have had occasion before to praise Sam Kiley, Sky News security correspondent, who often seems to be fighting a one man battle against rampant Islamophobia and alarmism in the media. He has just given an extremely sensible analysis. He counselled against rushing to brand the crash as terrorism without evidence, discussing both mechanical failure and pilot suicide. He added that even if it was terrorism it was not necessarily Islamic terrorism. He quoted Anders Breivik and the fact that early reporting speculated that massacre was Islamic terrorism. Kiley even went so far as to state it was a possibility that, if it were terrorism, it could be carried out by a fascist group attempting falsely to implicate Islamic groups and stoke Islamophobia. Kiley also outlined the possibilities for various Islamic groups to be involved.

His summary was as balanced and sensible as it could be possible to make. Indeed Eamonn Holmes felt it necessary to ramp up the terrorist narrative by stating there have only ever been 68 mechanical failures on Airbus 320 aircraft. That is true, but it is a very much larger number than the number of terrorist incidents on A 320 aircraft.

I do not know what happened. I do know that it is remarkable that anybody as balanced as Sam Kiley – who four years ago stated on Sky News that Israel was perceived as “moving towards an apartheid state” – continues to be employed by the mainstream media. I frequently criticise corporate media journalists for doing a bad job. When one is doing a particularly good job I should in fairness note it.


450 thoughts on “Crashed Egyptair Flight

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  • giyane

    Zeke and James. Oh dear, a Tom Lehrer catalogue of prophet trolls otherwise known as profiterols.

    • Zeke

      A plane falls out the sky and everybody here makes assumptions and speculates about it being some kind of terrorist event without any evidence? And I’m the troll? Pot, Kettle black!

      • Republicofscotland

        James.

        I think you’ll find that the media were the first to push the “more likely to be a terrorist attack, than a malfunction” agenda.

        Obviously you haven’t been paying attention, or?

      • Republicofscotland

        Re my prior comment it’s meant for Zeke, not James, my apologies.

        • Zeke

          Suppose some of the bereaved happen to come across this blog and are upset, distressed and offended by all this rampant speculation some are indulging in, who are they going to blame?

          “That nasty Craig Murrray allowed all these trolls to speculate in his comments section” etc., etc.

  • John Spencer-Davis

    Tony Greenstein, Jewish activist suspended from the Labour Party allegedly for anti-Semitic remarks, has finally, after nearly two months during which the Times and the Daily Telegraph mysteriously knew more about his suspension than he did, been given details of the three original allegations against him and where they came from.

    The strongest allegation has nothing to do with anti-Semitism, and comes from none other than Oliver Kamm, that well-known Labour man and paragon of fairness and accuracy, about a remark regarding the IRA that Greenstein wrote in 2005, more than a decade ago. Apparently that is now bringing the Labour party into disrepute. Of the other two remarks, one appears to be lifted out of context of a dispute with Gilad Atzmon and when read in context is clearly the opposite of anti-Semitic, and is sourced to that other paragon of objectivity Paul Bogdanor, and the other does not appear to me to be particularly controversial when given proper historical justification, as Greenstein does on his blog. But do please read for yourselves and reach your own conclusions.

    http://azvsas.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/labours-anti-semitism-witch-hunt-lets.html

    There are now numerous new allegations against Greenstein which as far as I can see are a good deal less significant than the original ones. I will be very interested to see how this turns out.

  • Tom Friedland

    I made a similar comment in the Daily Mail stating that the CIA have a track record of behind-the-scenes manipulation of catastrophic events and was downvoted massively. My comment now seems to have disappeared.

  • Republicofscotland

    “An Australian law firm has filed a compensation claim against Russia and President Vladimir Putin in the European Court of Human Rights on behalf of families of victims of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17, shot down in 2014, media reported.”

    “The jetliner crashed in Ukraine in pro-Russian rebel-held territory on July 17, 2014, killing all 298 people on board, including 28 Australians.”

    “The aircraft, which was en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, was shot down by a Russian-made surface-to-air missile, the Dutch Safety Board concluded in its final report late last year.”

    http://in.reuters.com/article/us-australia-mh-idINKCN0YC06P

    According to the Dutch Safety Board, they do not have the powers to allocate responsibility for the downing of Flight MH17. It will be very intresting to see how this pans out.

    • nevermind

      Laura Kuensberg reports from China how the tinned human meat is proffered to the poor Africans who’d otherwise starve.
      Next stop, Russia, and how Putin eats babies before having his tea.

      anything to take the heat out of the irretrievably split Conservative party that broke the law last year, to cheat the other parties out of power. The Conservative party has added the final starw to this disproportional unfair voting regime forced on us by some lingering mongers.

      • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

        “anything to take the heat out of the irretrievably split Conservative party that broke the law last year, to cheat the other parties out of power. ”
        __________________________

        Just to be sure I haven’t misunderstood you, Nevermind : are you saying that her (and the BBC’s) report was made specifically in order to divert attention from the claims of election expenses fraud?

        If you are, readers would probably be grateful if you could flag a few more news stories issued with the same intention.

        Thanks in advance, Nevermind.

    • Mulga Mumblebrain

      That just tells us a little about you RofS, the BBC and just how insanely vicious Western Sinophobes are becoming. Zambia has long been a centre of US efforts to sabotage China’s trade and investment with Africa,

  • nevermind

    Fred seems to have found the orange black box recorder, well done.

    Lauira Kuensberg in today’s Independent calls upon all female journalists to grow a thicker skin and ‘harden up’ in the onslaught of ‘sexist online petitions’.
    Rather than gettiong to grips with real misogynist’s on the golf course of Muirfield.

    Laurta Kuensberg is continuing to lie about the petition and her cabal of glass ceiling feminist admirers at the Guardian is duly chiming in with her.

    She is biased and despicable, not a role model for others Mrs. Unsworth, if she thinks that she can get away with intimidating those genuine petitioners branding them sexist and misogynist.
    Shame on that spineless Tory spokeswoman, for smearing those who found her unprofessional reporting biased.
    Right next to her posing picture in front of her Westminster playground there is the article on Murifileds disgraced stance, how they should have another vote after decades of misogynist majority voting for females to be banned from membership.

    And welcome to Neil Anderson and his suggestion to not pay taxes, what a novelty in defeating bad politics, now who is going to start that debate on kleptocratic powers and how to defeat them?

      • Ba'al Zevul

        More valid data will continue to emerge, Fred. Meanwhile every imaginable theory as to the cause emerges on the web. From the immortal Trowbridge’s laser lightning bolt (the lightning appears to be new -he’s invented a byzantine solution to the problem of decompressing an aircraft cabin of which Heath Robinson would be extremely proud, and for some reason attributed it to Iran), via the Illuminati, to the idea that the plane never existed in the first place. My initial estimate of 24 hours was optimistic, but if and when they recover the flight recorders, I think everything will be somewhat clearer. Namely that the Bilderberg Group planted fake flight recorders at the calculated point of impact, having removed the real ones at Paris. Or something

  • YouKnowMyName

    From a website called /.

    In an attempt to keep its citizens from seeing bad news and getting involved in sensitive political debates, China’s government fabricates about 488 million social media comments a year, reports Bloomberg citing a study (http://gking.harvard.edu/files/gking/files/50c.pdf PDF). The propaganda workers who post comments are known as Fifty Cent Party because they are believed to be paid 50 Chinese cents by the Chinese government for every comment they post. From the report: Although those who post comments are often rumored to be ordinary citizens, the researchers were surprised to find that nearly all the posts were written by workers at government agencies including tax and human resource departments, and at courts. The researchers said they found no evidence that people were paid for the posts, adding the work was probably part of the employees’ job responsibilities. Fifty Cent Party is a derogatory term since it implies people are bought off cheaply. About half of the positive messages appear on government websites, and the rest are injected into the 80 billion social media posts that enter China’s Internet. That means one of every 178 social media posts on China’s micro blogs is made up by the government, the researchers said. The sites affected include those run by Tencent Holdings Ltd., Sina Corp. and Baidu Inc.

    Dastardly Chinese gvnmnt , one fake JTRIG.cn post in every one hundred and seventy-eight real posts;
    Here on CM blog we used to DREAM of just one post in every one hundred and seventy-eight being fake. . .and tell the young people today that… and they won’t believe you, nope, nope!

    • Mulga Mumblebrain

      YKMN, that’s if you believe the Harvard study. I would not believe ANYTHING that the Western power elite say about China, whose rise fills them with racist dread. Have you ever read or heard a single positive story regarding China’s governance? I can remember none on decades. That’s Group Think that would have Big Brother green with envy.

      • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

        A good example of those who disbelieve the results of a study if those results tell them what they don’t want to hear.

    • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

      I wonder who those “stooges” are?

      Probably not some leaders of opposition parties since most of them appear to be in gaol.

      Let’s face it – this Venezuelan crisis is the result of economic mismanagement and incompetence (which admittedly pre-date President Maduro’s tenure) and, more than likely, a certain degree of corruption.

      According to reliable reports, toilet paper is still available in all other oil-producing countries despite the fall in the crude oil price 🙂

      • Republicofscotland

        Habb.

        Well if you’d had bothered to read the link, president Maduro names a very influencial one.

        Do try and read a link before commenting, there’s a good chap.?

        • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

          One.

          Any more?

          ********************

          BTW I have noticed that you quite regularly spell “influential” in the Spanish way – ie, “influencial”.

          Is that just a typo (not that “t” and “c” are next to each other on the keyboard) or what?

      • Jim

        There’s a great YouTube vid about the failed coup against Chavez Habbs, if anyone can provide the link to it.

        • Jim

          It’s called ‘The Revolution will not be Televised’ (pace Gil Scott Heron!). Brilliant film. The same forces are still at work Habbs, it’s obvious to a blind man.

          • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

            Jim

            I believe that Presidents Chavez and Maduro managed to ruin the economy of Venezuela all by themselves.

            As I said, there is no shortage of toilet paper in any of the other oil-producing coountries, despite the current low price of crude oil.

            President Maduro’s attempts to blame the crisis in Venezuela on a US-led conspiracy to bring him down smacks of desperation.

          • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

            Jim

            I tend to base my judgements on things other than films. As you probably know, those making this kind of film often have an agenda.

            Not that it’s relevant to Venezuela, of course, but I believe Hitler was a great believer in the effectiveness of film for propaganda purposes.

            Anyway, let us agree to differ : you believe what is happening in Venezuela is due to the external enemies of Venezuela acting together with puppets, etc, whereas I am sceptical , in general, about attempts by authoritarian leaders to deflect attention away from the real causes of their countries’ woes.

            PS – do keep posting (in general, I mean). You are neither an Excellence nor one of their hangers-on and I hope that will remain the case.

          • Jim

            Hi Habbs, I don’t think Rod Stoneman of the Irish Film Board, who wrote a book analysing the pro’s and cons of the case against the documentary, and concluded it was overall fair and balanced, had any political axe to grind.

          • Republicofscotland

            “As you probably know, those making this kind of film often have an agenda.”

            __________________

            Habb.

            Often have an “agenda”, that’s a belter coming from the likes of you.

          • Jim

            There’s a brutal opinion piece by Nick Cohen in today’s Observer that should cheer you up Habbs!

          • Jim

            The Cohen piece is Guardian actually, hard to tell sometimes on this tiny phone.

          • Chris Rogers

            Jim,

            Is it possible that Habbs is Freedland or Cohen masquerading on this forum – such deception is well favoured by these type of persons.

          • Jim

            Great couple of pieces in Observer on John Crane, Drake and Snowden and the NSA whistleblowers affair. Crane sounds a great guy, very selfless.

          • Jim

            The stuff about Crane’s grandfathers part in thwarting Hitler’s beer hall putsch is fantastic. If only he’d shot the bugger!

  • Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit

    Must say that new evidence of smoke on the plane, and a fire in a toilet reminds me of what caused Asiana Flight 214 to catch fire before it crashed at SDIO, and what caused MH370 to become a fireball over the South Chima Sea, seen by oil rigger Mike McKay.

    These crashes seem to have been caused by lasers brought on board by those two Iranians with stolen passports, fired from one of the toilets, and bringing down a lightning bolt which pierced the fuselage, and lignited fires elsewhere.

    And there is enough energy in the clearest sky to bring down such a bolt if it is properly triggered.

    Given the fact neither neither of these crashes were anywhere near properly explained, don’t have much hope that MS804’s will be either.

    And why aren’t the jihadists claiming credit for it if they did it?

    • Republicofscotland

      “And why aren’t the jihadists claiming credit for it if they did it?”

      __________

      Trowbridge H.Ford

      What you really mean by that statement, is why hasn’t a telephone call been made implicating one faction or another. To the benefit of ?

      Could it be a genuine accident? Or are the public well aware now of the pointing the finger at routine, played out over recent plane downings?

    • John Spencer-Davis

      I did not know that a laser can bring down a lightning bolt out of a clear sky, please could you cite research? Thanks.

      • Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit

        Don’t know why you ask me to provide links when you can easily find them yourself.

        Just google, for example: US Army shoots down lightning bolts with lasers.

        It ain’t no crazy joke either from some defunct internet magazine.

        • Loretha

          So you are seriously suggesting that somebody, somehow, obtained a US military weapon and then used it to cause this airliner to fall out of the sky?

          And you claim you don’t read Weekly World News? Are you sure?

      • John Spencer-Davis

        Well, for starters, how was I to know that googling “US Army shoots down lightning bolts with lasers” would bring me to what you want me to see unless you told me so? Googling “lasers and lightning”, which I did try, did not help all that much.

        Your claim is that both Asiana Flight 214 and MH370 crashed because in each case an Iranian with a stolen passport brought a laser on board and fired it from one of the toilets. This triggered a lightning bolt which pierced the fuselage and started other fires.

        Please can you cite any studies which support this theory? I do not think this is an unreasonable thing to ask.

        What I have been able to find, with your Google suggestion, does not state the following:

        – that lasers can trigger a lightning bolt. It is not very clear, but the most that is suggested is that lasers can harness a lightning bolt by directing it along some kind of channel.

        – anything about the size of the equipment required, so I cannot judge whether some Iranian with a stolen passport can smuggle on board an aircraft, laser equipment sufficiently powerful to generate and focus lightning. Doesn’t seem particularly likely to me, but perhaps you can cite evidence to show that you can carry a laser like that in hand luggage, or would you rather I looked for the evidence myself?

        What I have been able to find, with your Google suggestion, does state the following:

        – a lot of hardware is required including a power source to provide both laser and lightning;

        – there are many technical challenges to be overcome including “synchronizing the laser with the high voltage, ruggedizing the device to survive under the extreme environmental conditions of an operational environment, and powering the system for extended periods of time”

        https://www.army.mil/article/82262/Picatinny_engineers_set_phasers_to__fry_/

        http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2012-06/armys-laser-guided-lightning-weapon-delivers-high-voltage-through-air

        So we are to understand that an Iranian in each case smuggled on board, equipment which was sufficiently sophisticated to have overcome these technical challenges, capable of generating a lightning bolt from the sky, and small enough to be carried or smuggled on to the flight. Do I understand you correctly, and please can you cite evidence to this effect? Thank you.

        • Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit

          The investigations of the Asiana Flight 214 and MH370 crashes are pathetic.

          The NTSB is a collection of crack pots who joked about the former, just insulting the pilots who prevented a catastrophe while totally ignoring the two fires which were occurring in the cabin before the plane crashed on the tarmac, and Mike McKay was fired, and hounded by all for claiming he had seen a fireball in the South China Sea sky when MH370 went missing.

          I know of no reliable reports of these crashes, only what I wrote about the likelihood that they were caused a laser beam sin the cabins on The Local which has been seen by tens of thousands of posters.

          • John Spencer-Davis

            I’m sorry, but I carried out the following Google Search:

            “The Local” “Trowbridge H. Ford” “MH370” “Asiana Flight 214”

            which did not seem to help, then I looked for “The Local” but it does not appear to have a search facility.

            Could I please ask you to provide a link to your article on this matter? Many thanks.

          • John Spencer-Davis

            Ah, is this it?

            http://www.thelocal.se/discuss/index.php?showtopic=62977

            Are you Model T Ford, and is this list of postings beginning with this:

            “Sure looks like another terrorist act to embarrass China since most of the passengers are Chinese, only the hand-held laser was used at 35,000 feet, and the bolt back down made the plane uncontrollable, and it quickly broke up.”

            what you are referring to when you say “what I wrote about the likelihood that they were caused a laser beam sin the cabins on The Local”? Many thanks.

          • John Spencer-Davis

            Well, just for the record, this Google search is what got me there:

            Is Malaysian airliner crash repeat of Asiana Flight 214 The Local Trowbridge

            What you suggested did not get me there at all.

          • Loretha

            You must have watched the odd detective drama, so do come on, what is it?

            “Means, Motive and Opportunity!”

            So the Yanks have a laser beam that causes thunderbolts, why would they use it on this plane, and how?

            Maybe you need a new tinfoil helmet?

          • John Spencer-Davis

            What you wrote did not get me to where I needed to be, so there was no “pointless denial”.

            Took me seconds to post a link to your work once I did in fact find it.

          • John Spencer-Davis

            I will go through your thread and cut and paste here everything you say about the manner in which these two aircraft met their fate, plus links if you provide them. If I find evidence that you have presented, then it will become apparent. If I find no evidence then I will ask you to provide some. That seems to me to be quite fair.

            if you believe that two people on two aircraft activated lasers which brought down bolts of lightning which crashed the aircraft, and you would like other people to believe it too, as presumably you do since you posted your ideas on here, it does not seem unreasonable to me to ask you for evidence of the same. I’m no scientist. If you can show me convincing evidence of the above, I will be delighted to see it. Thanks.

        • Ba'al Zevul

          JS-D – you’re wasting your time. (as I have previously wasted mine). Trowbridge doesn’t do physics (or optics, or indeed structural geology) and sees no reason why he should. It’s probably as well to let him opine since it obviously satisfies some deep need, and he may well go berserk with a million-joule portable laser lightning bolt if he feels frustrated. He will never ask himself if the shapeshifting lizard who brought down MS804 might not have found it a damn sight easier to do with a portable power drill and a long bit.

          • Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit

            Just the usual crap from you, Ba’al.

            I would have provided the HTTP:// for my thread if I could have found it on this miserable laptop, but I can’t.

            Has nothing to do with physics, optics, structural geography, or any other crap you fancy.

          • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

            Yes, Baal, it’s funny isn’t it: JSD and others are apparently entitled to ask Trowbridge to back up what he says, provide evidence, rubbish the evidence he does provide when it seems dubious, etc, etc – but when I do the same, you and others recommend Habbabreak or call me a troll…..

          • Republicofscotland

            Habb.

            Remind me again, when have you ever provided a link, to back up a claim?

            One could of course say Trowbridge’s claims are outlandish, and outlandish claims are often dismissed as conjecture. But if Trowbridge’s assertions hold any water and are not imaginary, then surely the evidence to back up such a claim, would be a closely guarded secret. Ergo producing a link to prove or convince would be virtually impossible.

          • Ba'al Zevul

            The difference, as far as I am concerned, Habba, is that you do not spend your time here advancing loopy theories in defiance of the laws of physics and decline to show us your working. Instead, your input largely consists of questioning points of view, and demanding substantiation for them. While declining to show us your working when questioned yourself.

            What surprises me is that you are not constantly questioning Trowbridge. Perhaps you have something in common beyond querulousness?

          • Walls Have Ears

            “or indeed structural geology”

            LMAO

            Trowbridge certainly doesn’t. At most he works in the pork pie factory. And as a cleaner at best.

          • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

            Baal

            That’s not entirely fair, surely. I think that my question(s) are often accompanied by the factual elements which underpin and justify the them.

            I assume you’re not referring to my opinions about some of the websites and blogs often used on here to “back up” ideas and assertions – that is because I suspect we have rather similar views about them.

            Although I admit I occasionally fall into sin, I tend not to comment on Trowbridge’s stuff because much of it is so obviously off the wall that even the most rabid Excellence – never mind the ordinary reader – runs no risk of being taken in.

            Although in fairness I shouldn’t say “taken in” because I believe Trowbridge actually posts in good faith in the sense that he genuinely believes what he writes. So I do not detect anything bogus or mendacious in what he says, nor do I believe he is trying to pull the wool over people’s eyes. This of course differentiates him from most of the Excellences and their hangers-on and is another important reason why I leave him alone (mostly).

            Lastly, I don’t agree with your characteristion of Trowbridge as “querulous.

          • Ba'al Zevul

            Perhaps ‘irascible’ would have been closer. And thank you for your amplification. Though, as someone who dismisses out-of-hand any source not reflecting the Cameronian line, and never cites even those sources which do, I do have to question your own impartiality. Pot, in other words, and kettle.

            I see I have exceeded my limit for engaging with you, so have a nice night.

  • bevin

    There seems to be a sinking feeling that an obvious explanation for the Airbus crash is about to be released and thus put an end to all speculation. Hence the rush to come up with ever more exotic possible causes. And, on the other hand, the haste with which the amateur trolls seize every opportunity to smear their enemies on the left.
    Meanwhile the political situation in Israel is approaching crisis.
    The evident fact that Netanyahu is a fascist and his government is becoming increasingly weird and blood thirsty, has now been pointed out in a short time by the Deputy Chief of Staff of the IDF, former PM Ehud Barak, the Defence Minister until yesterday and, now, it would appear that even The Guardian’s Zionist apologetics doyen Jonathan Freedland has caught on.
    It will be interesting to see what reaction there is, if any, from the candidates for the US Presidency. It is hard not to notice that, having received $3 billion worth of rope annually the imperialist colony by the Med is getting close to hanging itself.
    Pass the popcorn.

    • Suhayl Saadi

      Lieberman’s appointment to the post of Defence Minister is very dangerous and irresponsible. The whole political calculus of this Israeli Government is extreme. But while ex-PM’s, ex-Mossad Cihiefs, current IDF chiefs and so on can call it incipiently fascist (and the world ought to be take serious note of their comments), if any of the candidates for the US Presidency, or any senators or represntatives,criticised even a single hair on the head of Binyamin Netanyahu, that would be the end, right there and then, of their political career.

  • nevermind

    O/T follow up for all to consider after today’s words by Laura’s controller Mrs. Unsworth, what a fitting name for an unworthy handler.

    my readers letter just sent in.

    35.000 are not sexist or misogynist!

    Mrs Fran Unsworth should have educated Laura Kuensberg better before allowing a Tory spokesperson to masquerade as a political journalist paid by us all, rather than to allow her political pro Tory bias to get the better of her when she suppressed a 38deg. petition, had it withdrawn under false and spurious allegations of sexism and misogynist comments being made against her, when aggrieved and principled people signed a petition to have her sacked for the appalling bias she has shown towards Labour for near enough half of a year culminating in the local election coverage. Mrs Unsworth conspiring to undermine future principled journalists at the ‘women on air ‘conference can only be construed as an unworthy reiteration of a lie. This comment list is available for the public to read online and there is not a single sexist comments amongst it. Mrs Kuensberg and Unsworth, as well as her supporting Guardian feminista’s should apologise to the 35.000 who were maligned with their badmouthing, or leave their well paid public broadcasting jobs for political punditry.

  • nevermind

    One for Clark

    O/T Rolls Royce, one of our best performing companies, that has never done any corrupt deals over gas powered energy plants in Nigeria, ever, is planning to pepper hundreds if not thousands of private/public mini SMR’s, nuclear power stations for the garden, here in England and across the world, no wonder Desertec can’t get anywhere with its benign and collaborative project.
    Little did anyone tell us that they have asked the EU commission for financial help and support, causing aghast notes that talk of absurdities and backward thinking.

    sadly its in German and I’m too busy to translate it.

    http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/atomkraft-mini-kraftwerke-in-der-eu-was-kommt-da-auf-uns-zu-a-1093128.html

  • MJ

    Fred: regarding your comment at 12.57, there was no reply button. You said:

    “it is enough to construct a theory that there was some sort of fire on board which spread rapidly and at the moment that would be the most likely suspect for cause of the crash”

    You are getting ahead of yourself. There is as yet no conclusive evidence that the plane crashed at all.

      • MJ

        Conclusive evidence will entail finding wreckage from the plane that bears a serial number, from which can be learned the identity of the plane to which it was fitted. Most parts have this number. Not every nut and bolt but larger components. Sections of wing for instance or the tailplane or body panels. I mention these in particular because they are buoyant and often float to the surface. I’m sure they’ll be found soon. Until then however and counter-intuitive as it may feel, there is no reliable evidence that the plane crashed.

        • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

          At what point does “counter-intuition” turn into mindless (but impressive sounding) speculation?

          • Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit

            When it becomes obviously absurd, as in this guy’s case, but not when it leads anyone like me to see that the unnoticed and unexplained fires on the two earlier crashes.

            Counter intuition is just a tool which can prove either wrong or right.

            Some guy whose name escapes me wrote a book about how the counter intuitive ideas of the philosophers of East Asia had long developed atomics physics before Einstein et al came along.

  • RobG

    For anyone interested, another Iranian Press TV piece from yesterday. It’s Gearóid Ó Colmáin having a heated debate about what’s going on in France…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9pFEcOMLtQ

    And for the Habbas of this world, the reason I link to the likes of Press TV is because the western media has become childish, garbage propaganda (which is one reason why you’re all talking about a plane crash, instead of talking about real news).

    I challenge Habba & Co to watch the piece I link to above and then tell me that it’s biased in the way it’s presented.

    Then watch the following short clip from BBC news (which deliberately gives the viewers no idea of what is really going on in France)…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0nzCk4JfEU

    • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

      Would not Press TC (as indeed Russia Today) have a certain interest in presenting events on France in as apocalyptic way as possible?

      Idem with events elsewhere in the West and the USA.

      After all, the countries as whose mouthpieces they serve are no friends of the West and the USA, are they.

      • RobG

        Would not the BBC (as indeed the American media) have a certain interest in presenting events that may or may not be ‘terrorist’ in as an apocalyptic way as possible?

        (I corrected some of your bad grammar. Where did you go to school..? I won’t mention the spelling, since you’re probably on your second bottle of something or other, all on tax payer’s expense)

        • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

          “…in as an apocalyptic way as possible”

          ____________________

          Was that one of your corrections and what was that you were saying about second bottles?

  • Loretha

    Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit wrote:

    “Some guy whose name escapes me wrote a book about how the counter intuitive ideas of the philosophers of East Asia had long developed atomic physics before Einstein et al came along.”

    Yea, right!

    http://ancientaliensdebunked.com/references-and-transcripts/ancient-nuclear-warefare/

    “Atomic warfare among ancient civilizations may sound like something out of a science fiction novel, but descriptions of similar deadly occurrences can be found in the very same text doctor Oppenheimer quoted after the New Mexico atomic test.” So the Ancient Astronaut theory claims that the Mahabharata speaks of nuclear warfare. Let’s see what specifically they say it says: AA: “One reference that we have, for example, speaks of these explosions that were brighter than a thousand suns. And when these blasts occurred the suns were twirling in the air; trees went up in flames and there was just this mass destruction. After those blasts, people who survive started to lose their hair and nails started to fall out. I mean, right there, we have a concise reference to radiation poisoning; nuclear fallout – and those texts are thousands of years old.” The Mahabharata actually doesn’t say any of that. These exact claims about the hair and nails falling off and an explosion brighter than a thousand suns have been repeated by Ancient Astronaut theorists so many times that they think it’s true, but the origin of this line was from a French book called “Morning of the Magicians”…

    Can I sell you a tin foil helmet, Trowbridge? Only five guid a throw; cheap at half the price.

      • Ba'al Zevul

        I’m glad his name didn’t escape you in the end. That would be this book, right?

        http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n04/eric-hobsbawm/era-of-wonders

        In the biography reviewed here, there is presumably a passage supporting your opinion, ideally drawn from Needham’s work (on China) rather than being the biographer’s own idea. I can’t find any reference to the (highly eccentric, but extremely competent) subject’s views on the prior development of nuclear technology. Have you an attributable quotation? I know Needham, probably correctly, and not uniquely, assigned the invention of gunpowder to the Chinese, but the assembly of an atomic weapon requires high explosive, which they did not invent. Do tell. And we can continue with the technical details of extracting 235-U from natural ores, if you wish.

      • Loretha

        Joseph Needham:

        http://www.atimes.com//atimes/China/CHIN-02-180215.html

        Simon’s Winchester is described as a geologist. I don’t quite see what either have to do with Egypt Air flight MS804, unless of course, the ever-weakening magnetic field of the Earth somehow caused this planes electrical circuits to burn out.

        Can you please clarify, instead of being so enigmatic?

        • Loretha

          Update: Apart from Needham’s scientific formidability, he was also a prime specimen of British excentricity (they allow every excentricity in Cambridge, as long as it doesn’t frighten the horses): a biochemist with highest distinctions early on, married to a brillant colleague, a freethinker, nudist, socialist, folk dancer, playboy, leftist activist, member of the left establishment, language genius, lay preacher (yes, he was also religious).
          And then: he meets his lifetime love, a Chinese colleague from Nanjing (whom he will marry half a century later), who makes him learn the language. He manages to get an assignment with the Foreign Service during WW2 and moves to Chongqing in 43, as Counsellor to the Embassy.
          That’s the beginning of the end. The man starts researching and writing… 20 volumes? He is obsessed with Chinese history and goes on his decade long rampage.
          As implied above, he was somewhat of a political fool, but it’s hard for me to begrudge him that. Not everybody looked at it so generously though. For a while he had a key position in UNESCO, in charge of science (he put the S into UNECO), when Julian Huxley was the DG. The US pushed him out for his communist sympathies.
          Worse was to come: he let himself be misused by China for Cold War propaganda in connection with the Korean War, as head of an ‘independant’ commission that was to investigate alleged US uses of biological weapons against Korea and China. From what is known today, no such thing happened, the whole show was staged by the Soviets and the Chinese, and Needham spoiled his name for years to come. He got blacklisted in the US for 20 years. He was just too naive and believed that everybody else was as honest and serious as he was himself.

          I can see why you like him so much, Trowbridge.

          • Ben Monad

            Whew! I thought first you were just fishing. Now I see you’ve hooked and swallowed the Flounder whole. How did you know Oppy quoted that passage from Bhagavad Gita merely for effect? Please continue…..

          • bevin

            “… he let himself be misused by China for Cold War propaganda in connection with the Korean War, as head of an ‘independent’ commission that was to investigate alleged US uses of biological weapons against Korea and China. From what is known today, no such thing happened, the whole show was staged by the Soviets and the Chinese,…”
            Your source for this assertion would be interesting. It is my understanding that the use of biological weapons by the US in the Korean War is now generally accepted. And that these weapons were also used in China.
            In other words Needham was right and the charges against him were smears.
            Unfortunately I don’t have any documentary evidence to hand. And I’m disinclined to look for it at the moment.
            (The word, by the way, is eccentric.)

          • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

            “Bevin”

            “It is my understanding that the use of biological weapons by the US in the Korean War is now generally accepted. And that these weapons were also used in China.”
            __________________

            You may have mis-read, “Bevin” – I’m with Loretha on this one.

            When you say “also used in China”, do you mean “also used against China in China”? I accept you may not have any documentary evidence to hand but could you nevertheless perhaps give a couple of details from memory?

            PS – I notice you did go on to give a link but unfortunately it was to “globalresearch”, which does have considerable form……

          • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

            I would advise everyone to read “Bevin”‘s link very carefully and evaluate for themselves the amount of “meat” it contains.

          • Mulga Mumblebrain

            Loretha, garbage! The USA definitely did use bacteriological warfare in Korea, using the same techniques that the Japanese had used in China, not surprising as the USA had given the Japanese Mengele, Shiro Ishii, of Unit 731 infamy, impunity from prosecution after the war, in return for his ‘research’ findings, obtained from techniques like vivisection, ie live dissection, of human beings, including children.

          • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

            Muzzlebrain

            Since “Bevin” declined to give us any reputable sources for that, could you perhaps do so?

            Your personal “definitely” is insufficient, I’m afraid.

          • bevin

            Habbasmear.
            I declined to give a link because I do not have one at my fingertips and have little time to waste on a matter that will only be cleared up when the US opens its secret files.
            As to Global Research the piece seems perfectly reasonable to me. I suppose that had I given The Economist or The Times, both up to their necks in imperialist propaganda mongering, you would have been silenced. You might want to wonder why?
            Mulga’s post may not be good enough for someone primarily concerned not with the historical record but in defending imperialism, but it makes two excellent points.
            1/ That the Unit 731 was not just not tried for its serial crimes but that it was taken over by the US and operated, at least experimentally (which in this context is horrific enough), during the Korean War. So the US had no compunction about using biological weapons- its record in Germany was the same.
            2/ The Chinese Communists were very familiar with Japanese biological warfare techniques. They knew what they were dealing with by 1950.
            Of course the Communists made propagandistic appeals to public opinion in the west. And their propaganda was not unsuccessful. The working classes of Europe and North America knew only too well how ruthless and callous their rulers were. So did the victims of colonialism.
            One of the advantages of this blog is that one does not need to provide the links that you call for: sooner or later someone who has the information at his (or of course her) fingertips will post it.
            In the meantime talking of ‘form’ the US military has lots of it in the bio and chemical warfare departments. It remains the only government which has employed nuclear weapons on civilians.

    • Dave Lawton

      “Some guy whose name escapes me wrote a book about how the counter intuitive ideas of the philosophers of East Asia had long developed atomic physics before Einstein et al came along.”

      In fact Atomic physics was developed long before Einstein came along.He put no input into Atomic physics.

      • lysias

        I’ve always wondered if Einstein’s idea of space-time was inspired by the line in Wagner’s Parsifal: “Zum Raum wird hier die Zeit”. Einstein is known to have been musical.

        • lysias

          And isn’t Wagner’s line supposed to have been inspired by things that Schopenhauer, who himself was influenced by Eastern thinkers, had said?

  • Zeke

    Ben Momad said: “Whew! I thought first you were just fishing. Now I see you’ve hooked and swallowed the Flounder whole. How did you know Oppy quoted that passage from Bhagavad Gita merely for effect? Please continue…..”

    Once I Had a Girl…..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Oekanmpguc

    “Everybody is everybody else” as somebody once said.

  • Paul Barbara

    ‘..Kiley even went so far as to state it was a possibility that, if it were terrorism, it could be carried out by a fascist group attempting falsely to implicate Islamic groups and stoke Islamophobia. Kiley also outlined the possibilities for various Islamic groups to be involved..’
    Glad Kiley and Craig accept that ‘False Flag’ ops do ‘on occasion’ occur!!

  • Dave

    The test that tells you whether its a genuine or false flag terrorist attack, is the speed at which its described as one by our leaders and the media. If its declared a terrorist attack the moment it happens, then its false flag, because it indicates foreknowledge because how would you know so soon, unless you were complicit in the attack.

    And then as if a switch is thrown the terrorist narrative follows a partisan line until its switched off, so there must be the equivalent of a war room deciding the line and instructing the news rooms and our leaders accordingly. But how is this coordinated and whose in charge. The message promoted gives you a good idea of the interests involved, but has the chain of command and Head of Communications been identified?

  • Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit

    Now the Daily Mail is moving into high gear in the cover up, claiming that political opponents of al-Sisi “once” scrawled on the bottom of the doomed plane’s fuselage that “we will bring it down”, and that he was a “traitor” and “murderer”.

    That settles it, the mystery is already solved, but don’t overlook my scrawling on my bathroom wall, as I recall, the day before it crashed that very plane was doomed.

  • Dave

    I’ll rephrase that. The test that tells you whether its a false flag attack is the speed its called one and blame attributed.

  • Republicofscotland

    “Hundreds of protesters gathered in Tel Aviv on Saturday to protest the far-right turn the government has signaled by choosing Avigdor Lieberman as Defense Minister. Activists say PM Benjamin Netanyahu is putting Israel on a path of war.”

    “Demonstrators came together at HaBima Square in Tel Aviv, saying that by appointing Lieberman to head the military, Netanyahu had created the “most right wing government in the history of the State,” Israeli media reported.”

    https://www.rt.com/news/343979-israel-protest-lieberman-minister/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome

    As expected Lieberman’s appointment hasn’t gone down well with the moderates. The pictures show hundreds protesting against it .

  • Republicofscotland

    “Syrian forces have reportedly captured a truck transporting $100,000 worth of medical supplies from Turkey for Takfiri terrorist groups in Iraq and Syria.”

    “Syrian security forces confiscated the truck that belonged to the Turkish al-Yaman medical company as it was carrying over 25 tons of supplies in the northwestern Syrian province of Aleppo, Syria’s official SANA news agency reported on Saturday.”

    http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2016/05/21/466762/URL–turkey-daesh-medical-supplies-syria

    No real surprise here then, as it’s long been suspected that the Turkish dictator Erdogan, had been supplying equipment to the terrorist forces whilst using a fleet of oil tankers to transport Syrian oil across the border into Turkey.

      • Republicofscotland

        Habb.

        Yes PressTv.

        Are you implying that only the Western press tells the truth?

        You won’t find reports like the one above in the Western press, you will however find plenty of anti-Russian stories.

    • James

      The Humane Society has been requesting video submissions on stories about shelter animals and their owners changing each others’ lives. The story of Eric and Peety is the first of entries to launch the Mutual Rescue project.

      In 2010, Eric weighed 340 pounds, had type 2 diabetes and high blood pressure. His doctor told him he’d be dead in five years if he didn’t change his sedentary lifestyle. At the suggestion of his nutritionist, Eric adopted Peety, a middle-aged, obese dog, from the Humane Society in Silicon Valley, Calif., and together they lost 165-plus pounds (Eric lost 140-plus pounds and is no longer a diabetic, and Peety lost 25 pounds from their daily walks). Eric also completed his first marathon in 2015.

      Read more at http://running.competitor.com/2016/03/video/shelter-dog-saves-mans-life-and-inspires-him-to-run_146563#vYykTpfOLzS0EtPY.99

    • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

      Ma’an News – well, why not.

      When reading the link I was surprised to note that Ma’an News appeared to have made little effort to find out the legal reasons underpinning the demolition orders (it would have been interesting to know), confining itself to lamely writing “It remains unclear what legal pretext Israeli authorities used to issue the demolition orders.”

      • Republicofscotland

        Habb.

        Or it could be that the Israeli authorities were not very forthcoming about the legalities of the matter ?

      • Ba'al Zevul

        Google would be your friend if you would take your fingers out of yoeur ears and apply them to the keyboard, once in a while, Habb. You can continue to go ‘lalalalala’ – there is no-one to hear you.

        Even after the Oslo Accords, Israel retained full building and planning authority in Area C, which encompasses some 60% of the West Bank. Israel strictly limits Palestinian settlement, construction and development in this area, while ignoring the needs of the Palestinian population. This policy means Palestinian residents must subsist in very rudimentary living conditions. They are denied any legal avenue to build homes or develop their communities, so they face the constant fear that their homes might be demolished, and that they be expelled and lose their livelihood. The Civil Administration prohibits Palestinian construction in vast areas of Area C, citing various rationales, such as defining these areas as state land, survey land, firing zones, nature reserves and natural parks, or by incorporating lands into the jurisdiction of settlements and regional councils. In addition, the authorities prevent Palestinians from building even on lands that are enclosed between the Green Line and the Separation Barrier. After deducting for overlap among the various areas described above, Palestinians are prohibited from building on some 70% of Area C.

        In the remaining 30% of Area C land on which constructions is not a priori prohibited, any construction must be pre-approved by the Civil Administration, be it for private homes, agricultural structures or infrastructure facilities. The Civil Administration, however, imposes severe restrictions on such building. To date, the Civil Administration has avoided approving any master plan at all for over 90% of the villages located entirely within Area C, and has approved master plans for only 16 villages. These plans, prepared without participation by local residents, fail to meet their needs. The boundaries set forth in these plans were determined according to the built-up areas of each village at the time of planning, thereby preventing expansion to meet population growth. The limited building area these master plans designated excluded land around the villages available for development, and sometimes, even excluded existing structures on the villages’ outskirts. The plans do not designate areas for public purposes such as schools or medical clinics and impose a high population density. The total area covered by these plans is currently only about one half of one percent of Area C. (continues, depressingly)

        http://www.btselem.org/planning_and_building

        Currently just below the radar are plans to annex Area C in toto , contrary to the provisions of the Geneva Convention, the Oslo Accords, and just about everything else.

  • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

    Prominent SNP politician Stewart Hosie steps out of political life following the revelation that he has been having an affair.

    Mrs Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland’s First Minister and fellow SNP member, expresses her “regret” about this.

    Given that Mrs Sturgeon has been endlessly talked up by her admirers as “not being the same as other politicians”, should she not have refused Mr Hosie’s resignation, thereby striking a blow for those who believe that a politician’s private life, if conducted within the law, should be of no relevance to his political one?

    In other words – is Mrs Sturgeon merely another cowardly, mealy-mouthed, shitty politician?

    • James

      Stewart Hosie crashed the plane ?

      Or are you a fecking idiot and can’t read the tittle of the thread ?

      • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

        James

        You seem rather upset at the idea that Mrs Sturgeon might just be the same type of politician as any other.

        Do you think she should have accepted Mr Hosie’s resignation – or should she have said “stay, your private life is your own business”?

    • Republicofscotland

      Habb.

      Yes so I heard, if Mr Hosie wishes to resign, (unlike plenty of hangers on at Westminster who wouldn’t dream of resigning) then of course that’s his perogrative, as for Sturgeon’s position on the matter, it’s entirely irrelevant in my opinion.

      • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

        You seem rather upset at the thought that Mrs Sturgeon might just be the same old-style politician and party leader as any other.

        What’s your own opinion – you think she should have accepted Mr Hosie’s resignation or should she have shown new thinking by said “hang on in there, your private life is your own business” ?

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