A Gangster State 1085

Max Weber defined a key attribute of a state as holding the monopoly on the legitimate exercise of violence within a given territory. For anybody other than the state to use substantive physical force against you or to imprison you is regarded as an extremely serious crime. The state itself may however constrain you, beat you, imprison you and even kill you. That link is on deaths in police custody. I might also quote the state murder of 12 year old British child Jojo Jones, deliberately executed by drone strike by the USA with prior approval from the British government.

That is but one example of the British state’s decreasing reticence over the use of extreme violence. The shameless promotion of Cressida Dick to head the Metropolitan Police as reward for orchestrating the cold-blooded murder of an innocent and unresisting Jean Charles de Menezes is another example. So is Savid Javid’s positive encouragement of the US to employ the death penalty against British men stripped of citizenship.

There are a class of states where the central government does not have sufficient control over its territories to preserve its monopoly of violence. That may include violence in opposition to the state. But one further aspect of that is state sanctioned violence in pursuit of state aims by non state actors, done with a nod and a wink from the government – death squads and private militias, often CIA supplied, in South America have often acted this way, and so occasionally does the British state, for example in the murder of Pat Finucane. In some instances, a state might properly be described as a gangster state, where violent groups acting for personal gain act in concert with state authorities, with motives of personal financial profit involved on both sides.

It appears to me in this sense it is fair to call Britain a gangster state. It has contracted out the exercise of state violence, including in some instances to the point of death, against prisoners and immigration detainees to companies including G4S, who exercise that violence purely for the making of profit from it. It is a great moral abomination that violence should be exercised against humans for profit – and it should be clear that in even in most “humane” conditions the deprivation of physical liberty of any person is an extreme and chronic exercise of violence against them. I do not deny the necessity of such action on occasion to protect others, but that the state shares out its monopoly of violence, so that business interests with which the political class are closely associated can turn a profit, is a matter of extreme moral repugnance.

Rory Stewart appeared on Sky News this morning and the very first point he saw fit to make was a piece of impassioned shilling on behalf of G4S. That this was the first reaction of the Prisons Minister to a question on the collapse of order at Birmingham Prison due to G4S’ abject performance, shows both the Tories’ ideological commitment to privatisation in all circumstances, especially where it has demonstrably failed, and shows also the extent to which they are in the pockets of financial interests – and not in the least concerned about the public interest.

I should add to this that Tories here includes Blairites. Blair and Brown were gung-ho for prison privatisation, and even keen to extend the contracting out of state violence for profit to the military sector by the deployment of mercenary soldiers, which New Labour itself consciously rebranded as “private military companies”. Iraq was a major exercise in this with British government contracted mercenaries often outnumbering actual British troops.

The reason for the state to have the monopoly of violence in any society is supposed to be in order to ensure that violence is only ever exercised with caution, with regret and in proportion, solely in unavoidable circumstances. It is the most profound duty of a state to ensure that this is so. The contracting out of state violence for private profit ought to be unthinkable to any decent person.

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1,085 thoughts on “A Gangster State

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  • Mary Paul

    On the subject of gangster states, has anyone else read what is currently going in Romania?

    • Cesca

      My lovely Mum is Romanian Mary, the corrupt, political mess our country is in seriously upsets us, cheers for mentioning this.

      • Cesca

        Btw, my name, it is my real one, is pronounced Chessca. Seriously apt for me, i’m an avid, very high elo player, just below GM level. My game style is very similar to Yifan Hou, i’m an in the wind freestyler, not computer influenced player, more sloppy than her tho, hence the lower elo.

          • James

            Briefly knew a Romanian girl some years ago called Manuela, who had a somewhat bizarre inflated opinion of herself, and turned out to be mad as a box of frogs. Hmm….

          • glenn_nl

            James: I currently work with a Romanian who has an incredibly inflated view of himself too. Called him an idiot once – entirely and quite obviously in jest – and he went batshit crazy. Is this a national characteristic, I wonder?

    • ADKC

      It appears to be a Soros funded colour protest designed to otherthrow the current government. The President of Romania, Klaus Iohannis, appears to have strong links to Soros and appears to be supporting the protests and urging the overthrow of the government. The protests have turned violent. I believe there was an election as recently as January 2018 so this is all very strange and seems to fit the Ukranian model and what is happening in Venezuela.

      The west and Soros seem to have been heavily involved in Romania since the fall of communism:


      So, if corruption is a problem in Romania, it seems that those fomenting the trouble are more that responsible for their fair share of graft.

      I suspect that the current government (far all their flaws) has been showing more independence than Soros and the west would like. Could it be that the current government is more favorably disposed towards better relationships with Russia and their pipelines?

      Regardless, there is a real problem with overthrowing a government that was democratically elected. It severely damages the development of that countries democratic institutions and almost certainly consolidates power into the hands of a bunch of oligarchs, cronies and thugs.

  • ex-con

    Back in the distant days – I was sent to a liberal open Borstal where I learned to play rugby union and a trade qualification which settled me down, gave me self respect and a crime free future. The Home Office does know what works but chooses not to ‘pay’ for it. Of course the short term saving go’s on costing for generations with the collateral damage to society. I believe Stephen Fry had a similar experience.

    • Shatnersrug

      Politicians of a Tory bent want power to play the war games involved in geo politics and become stinking rich, to do this these days they need a majority of sorts. By getting their chums in the media to scare timid middle England they can then talk tough on crime and punishment. The convict is irrelevant in this process

  • Sharp Ears

    Trump on Fux News, sorry Fox News. ‘The money came from me, not the campaign.’

    An American female over the airwaves just now – ‘He’s done wonderful for us and he’s done wonderful for the world’.

      • Vivian O'Blivion

        Don’t see this issue having a definitive impact on outcomes. On a pre 2016 planet Earth, perhaps paying hush money to porn star would be a big deal, but things are just so polarised now Trump will just bluster his way round trouble. Apparently Manafort would have been convicted on all 18 charges on day one of jury deliberations but one Trump supporting member held out for four days before reluctantly returning a guilty verdict on 8 counts.

        On another topic, if as is being reported, investigations into corrupt use of election funds by Republican Congressman Duncan Hunter (Cal) began in 2016, why wait ’till this week to press charges? The California, election primary process was settled in June and there is no facility in California for ballot paper “write ins” (an odd American concept). Voters will be faced in November with a choice of the Democratic candidate and a Republican candidate facing serious criminal charges.

        • Jo1

          Thing is, on the jury deliberations, we have yet another example of people in privileged positions effectively defying the law to rush to the media in order to share/leak information.
          It’s become impossible to believe anyone in the whole Trump saga, whether it’s people currently onside with him or people who used to be. Throw in the various government agencies like the FBI and CIA and it’s all just as unclear when they all have an agenda. As for the media….well, it has an agenda too.
          All of which leaves the rest of us pretty much still in the dark about what the truth actually is.

      • Sharp Ears

        I thought that there would be a Dem supporter. Don’t talk to me about Obomber.

        The Americans had no choice in 2016 once Jill Stein and Sanders were out of the way.

        • Nick

          You’re very much mistaken if you think I’m a Dem supporter. Or Trump supporter for that matter. And you haven’t answered my question – although I’m not demanding an answer 😉

          • Iain Stewart

            Come on Nick, everyone is a “supporter” just like football, innit? Irony by the way €;-)

          • Nick

            Iain, thank you for saying that. It seems to be so hard not to take sides these days. All the you’re either with us or against nonsense does my head in.

          • ADKC

            The whole of the US is moving towards war with Russia. Congress, House of Representatives, media, democrats, republicans, etc. are all up for it. There isn’t an opposing force to prevent stupidity. There is a complete lack of commonsense. Bizarrely, no matter what you might think of him, there is only one person that might be able to stop this, and that’s Trump. I can’t think of any other person or organisation in a position to make a difference that have shown any indication they would be willing to make a difference.

          • Clark

            Well there’s the recent Pentagon report that the US couldn’t sustain full-scale war for more than a couple of months without the support of, primarily, China, but also Russia and others, because of the need for critical minerals and components that are only available from certain countries. It was a Pentagon report but covered by RT.

            So the politicians may be up for it but I don’t think the military are. I think you’d be surprised how often it’s the military telling the politicians to back down, but then the military do have a lot more experience of war.

          • ADKC

            Clark, You are being complacent. The cold war is being re-introduced, the missiles are being targeted the Russians are being persuaded that this is serious. A miscalculation is all it takes. The US is in permanent irrevocable decline, their debt can never be brought down to reasonable levels and can only grow and grow. The war won’t last months, it will last minutes. If the US prevail all their problems disappear and another 100 years of US supremecy beckon. The problem is that people don’t recognise that something real is happening and get really worked about issues that are unimportant and just seek to divide. During the last cold war their were powerful peace movements; these no longer exist. Our institutions are far weaker at calling power to account than they were. A new cold war should be an unacceptable risk to any reasonable person.

          • Radar O’Reilly

            I’m not sure that ‘everything is Putie’s fault’ and ‘Russia interfered in voting for America’s Got Talent’ has actually made any headway with the hard-working U.S. taxpayers.

            I don’t think the anti-Donald ‘coup’ has worked, and I can’t see the new Cold War working.

            2016/2017/2018 ‘Grand old duke of York(U.S.A)’ has marched all their media and troops up to the top of the hill, so the question remains – where do they go now, stratosphere or back to earth?

  • Anon1

    The migration figures are out and we have net migration of 270,000 per year, three times the government’s target. This equates to a city the size of Bristol every two years. Or a Scotland every 18 years.

    The actual number of immigrants coming into this country is over 600,000 per year. All these figures are, of course, official figures and likely to be very much lower than the true numbers involved.

    • Clark

      Is this meant to be bad?

      What’s the global human population growth per annum? I recently saw a global population figure of 7.8 billion. The previous one I saw was 7 billion, not long ago. I remember it passing 4 billion, and the British population doesn’t seem to have doubled since then.

      • Andyoldlabour

        @Clark, yes it is bad if you are a qualified, experienced worker in any number of sectors in the UK, particularly if you are over 50 (although it doesn’t seem to affect MSM journalists/newsreaders or politicians).
        There are many employers who have no scruples, and are ecstatic when they have an unlimited employee pool to dip into.

        • Clark

          But surely it expands the market just as much as it expands the labour pool. It presumably also decreases the overseas labour pool, which is where the cheap imports come from.

          I’d have thought the solution to this was anti-austerity, ir prosperity, which always used to be a good word. If the population have more to spend, instead of vast profits being syphoned into UKOT off-shore accounts, there will be greater purchasing of goods and services.

          • Clark

            Someone posted up the other day that one UK banker got an annual bonus of 47 million! That translates to a couple of thousand workers on a decent salary, and all their income tax, VAT etc. into public coffers.

            Europe doesn’t put up with this. This is a UK problem.

          • Shatnersrug

            Oh Clark – there you go again using logic . There is no comeback from that! 50% of these isles don’t like them foreigners and they’ll look for any old excuse to prove to themselves Johnny Foreigner is not wanted.

          • Anon1

            ^Look at the lefty arguing for the importance of statisfying the demands of the markets and big business! The indoctrination runs so deep and the belief in the absolute necessity of replacing themselves with Asians and Africans is so strong that they will even argue against their own core principles. Remember, ‘Multiculturalism’ trumps *everything*.

          • Clark

            Shatnersrug, if we claim that there is media propaganda, we must also presume that some will have been taken in by it.

            Anon1’s position is very clear; he’s scared of Islam and Muslims. Ages ago he posted up a mainstream media propaganda piece that cherry-picked and misrepresented survey data, thus purporting to show that nearly half of all Muslims wanted to kill westerners, or at least approved of doing so. I began deconstructing it for him point by point; some of the surveys were taken in Iraq in the immediate aftermath of the invasion, for instance. Most of the published bullet-points misquoted or stripped away context found in the surveys they purportedly cited. The first five points fell so easily that I couldn’t be bothered with the other few dozen; the deceptive nature of the article was unmistakeable. It made not a jot of difference to Anon1’s attitude. He’s scared of Muslims and wants others to share his fear.

            Something like “foreigners are taking our jobs” is a widely publicised meme with superficial plausibility; typical corporate media stuff, but the logic doesn’t hold up and people need to know why, or they won’t have the political ammo they need to defeat the right wing. There’s a political bias in our employment structure that keeps wages down and employment insecure, and the “foreigners are taking our jobs” line constantly pushed by the corporate media is effective distraction and cover.

          • ADKC

            Expanding the labour just suppresses pay and ensures the continuity of austerity. You ‘re imagining a world of free market and trickle and it’s just an illusion. Austerity is not going to end (although, politicians will make that claim). Should you find yourself in difficult circumstances these issues may become of more importance to you but, just to pre-warn you, no one else will care.

          • Anon1


            On the contrary, this country is demonstrably one of the most tolerant on earth. Just look how much immigration has been tolerated so far. Look at the extent to which this country bends over to accommidate every different religion and culture. Try pulling that that off elsewhere.

            There are, however, reasonable limits to people’s tolerance and if you push them you’ll get the far-right. Is that what you want?

          • Clark

            I’ve never had to make any effort at all to accommodate another culture. What is there to do? People practice their culture quite spontaneously without making any demands upon me.

            Odd that you feel so put out, Anon1.

          • ADKC

            Clark, If Anon1 was scared about Muslims and Islam then you should have pointed out to him that this was down to Gladio B which is a western elite plan to create tension by false flag terrorist incidents. You should not have condemned him because Gladio is designed to create such hatred and division. This is particularly annoying as you raised the issue of your concern about Gladio B in an earlier post and here I find you advancing the Gladio agenda.

            However, Anon1did not say anything about Islam and Muslims (and he is not sacred of them, either). What Anon1 was doing was advancing a theory about a plan for the white race to be bred out of existence. This is a really boring subject for me and I really don’t want to give it any space because it is exactly the kind of hatred, division and tension that Gladio B is intended to produce.

            Finally, causing wars and troubles in other countries is designed to provide a pool of cheap labour for EU. It helps keep pay low and the workforce weak. To put it bluntly it doesn’t matter whether you want or don’t want immigrants, both are racist options. Not causing wars and destabilising other countries is the only non-racist option. The US, UK and France are the worst countries on the world for provoking wars and destabilising other countries. To the extent that we permit this (and we do permit this) we are all racist.

          • Anon1

            Anon1 isn’t scared of Muslims or Islam. Anon1 has lived and worked in several Islamic countries, and visited several more by choice as a tourist. Anon1 is realistic about the insanity of continued mass-immigration.

          • Clark

            ADKC, you are mistaken. Anon1 has been posting here for years, and is forever attempting to propagate his fear of Muslims. His comments smearing refugees as “rapefugees” have been deleted by the moderators, his comments about “importing the third world” still stand.

            Gladio, and potentially Gladio B are indeed designed to generate fear, but are nonetheless concocted by the fearful; why else create such a thing? There has to be a perceived threat, to motivate such aggression.

            My descriptions of bullies and cowards with guns who threaten to shoot you or your dog are not insults or generalisations; they are my personal experiences. And I maintain that anyone who voluntarily votes for a smaller cage is an idiot; any healthy animal will be as free as it can.

          • ADKC

            No, Clark, you are mistaken. Anon1 is not afraid. You are under-estimating him. Anon1 is extremely ideological and you are helping him push his ideology. I can read him far better than you can. He is far more manipulative than you think. I am afraid (now don’t get upset) he has used your own conceit against you. Your frequent references to the prison you find yourself in is a classic misjudgement on your part. I will help you try to see why but please understand that I am trying to equip you to take on people like Anon1. Firstly, you need to understand it is about the audience; it is not a personal argument (Anon1 understands this, you don’t). Don’ t insult your audience. You do this all the time. Anon1 never insults his audience. The UK is not a prison, it is extremely insulting to your audience to refer to it as such. Anon1 could well have far more travel experience than you but he isn’t foolish enough to insult his audience with it; unfortunately, that’s what you do when you refer to those 28 countries which you are no longer free to go to. Don’t seek to engender sympathy over nonexistent hardships; you are not in prison, you clearly don’t know anything about prison; you are still free to go to those 28 countries and, even if you couldn’t, no one is going to sympathise; if you’re homeless then you’ll get sympathy. Don’t argue with Anon1 try to persuade him, if he insults you, don’t insult him back. The discussion you are having is not with Anon1 but with your audience. Exercise sensible restraint, if Anon1 says something oddball, challenging merely gives him an opportunity to explain and promote his ideology. There’s a lot to be said by not engaging with Anon1; it minimises his poison, restricts his platform, and makes him appear odd. Finally, don’t be stupid and assume that Anon1 is an idiot or in anyway your intellectual inferior. Anon1 knows exactly what he’s doing and why he’s doing it and that gives him an immediate advantage over you.

          • ADKC

            No, Clark, Gladio exercises are not ‘concocted by the fearful’. They are real people die. They are carried out on behalf of the power to control the masses.

            Gladio B incidents involving Muslim terrorism is bound to induce racist and anti-Islamic feelings. You are coming very close to blaming the victims of these incidents. You obviously understand the Gladio purpose of tension and division but are only too happy to engage in that division, rather than profer an explanation of how people have been manipulated.

          • Clark

            ADKC, your 22:05 is a very interesting comment, though I think you have made some incorrect assumptions. My concern about loss of freedom is not for myself, but for others I know who live and work in Europe, and mainland Europeans who live and work in Britain. A community has developed and it will be divided by brexit. This is a great loss.

            I take your point about underestimating Anon1 and audience. Anon1 is clearly careful not to say too much; I had assumed this was merely to avoid being banned under the moderation rules, but now I see that this could also be crafted so as not to alienate certain readers. You say Anon1 is highly ideological; can you name or describe the ideology for me please? I will not object if this is something you think should not be mentioned in public.

            As to Gladio and similar operations, I maintain that they are motivated by fear, but fear at a deeper level than the fear that they exploit. Rather than fear of violence, death or foreign people, it is the fear of being merely equal rather than superior. Of course no one is truly superior; death eventually takes everyone precisely once, so the maintenance of the delusion of superiority demands tension for as long as the individual maintains it.

          • ADKC

            It doesn’t have a name. It is the belief that the white race is being bred out of existence. The plan was put in place by the Ford, Carnegie (and other) Foundations. The education system has been subverted to enable this. White self-loathing and diminishing of white males is part of the process. If you as a white man accuse another white man of racism you are confirming that the plan is working. Floridation and innoculations (autism) may be part of the plan. The current disturbances in the US around Trump, antifas, etc. are part of the plan.
            However, this does not effect the elite. And those who get the Ford, Carnegie (and other) scholarships are the intellectual class that implement the plan. Essentially, it is an overarching conspiracy theory but it is not without evidence (you’ll have to look for it though, I’m not that interested). Suffice to say hurling accusations of racism at your own ‘race’ tends to seem to confirm the existence of the plan (confirmation bias). The extraordinary focus on issues such as gender, #meto when there are far more important issue also looks like part of the plan. Far more people than you might expect are influenced by this ideology. My view, its stupid!

          • Clark

            At this point ADKC, your argument is losing credibility with me. To suggest that there is an overarching conspiracy but then to say that you are uninterested and cannot point me towards evidence is too thin.

            Of course identity politics has been examined by organisations, which have then developed strategies to use it to their advantage. This is entirely to be expected, but I see no reason to regard it as a major determinant of human behaviour.

            As to racism, sexism etc., these used to be the norm in society, they were genuine, major obstacles to equality. They were institutionalised and enshrined in law. Attitudes changed because the oppressed groups struggled for change, and eventually laws were changed. This is one of the major stories of the twentieth century.

            But all changes cause oscillations. White males were bound to feel diminished when deposed from their former position of superiority. There was bound to be lag, overshoot and rebound. People were bound to accuse each other of sexism, racism etc. along the way, and there is no reason to expect such oscillations and repercussions to have damped out so soon.

            You would have to show me strong evidence showing that fluoridation or vaccination cause autism. The strongest evidence that I know of regarding vaccination shows that it does not.

            Disappointing to have ended up back at a conspiracy theory.

          • ADKC

            Clark, that’s what motivates Anon1. You asked. I said its stupid. But you are completely mistaken if you don’t think that the ideology I described (a white supremacy victimisation) is without influence. Should there be a resurgence of white facism/racism of political importance it will be along the above lines. It us based on victimhood and victimhood is the driver for modern political movements.

            Incels are an obvious outcrop of this ideology but they are just a small part.

          • Clark

            ADKC, 02:49; I certainly agree that “white supremacy victimisation” is real, and exploited. But I think both are to be expected as responses to the 20th century movements towards equality rather than being part of an overarching plan. And I agree that such victimhood movements carry danger. I don’t know what incels are.

            Pete, 11:51: “The greediest, most heartless and ruthless” – and the most under-regulated and under-taxed, as you’d expect in the UK, whose establishment is dominated by “the true spirit of capitalism”. These traits have not just been encouraged economically; they’ve been glorified. It’s grotesque.

          • Clark

            Bloody hell, look at Pete’s graph!. And look at the numbers on the vertical axis; it’s logarithmic!

            Anyone care to estimate how much that lot would work out at if it were shared out?

          • Clark

            Gangster state and bankster state! Note the confirmation of what I said:

            “The payout represents a last hurrah for European banks’ big bonus culture, which was dealt a blow last year as new European Union rules came in to cap bonuses at no more than 200% of salary”

            “Last year” being 2014. Like I said earlier, this money-to-the rich culture is a UK problem, the EU has already started tackling it. It’s hardly surprising that the privately controlled “news” media would rather we blamed “immigrants” and left the EU, is it? That sort of money can easily buy plenty of column-inches.

        • Clark

          Well I suppose the building sector will have to take on workers. And it would help if there wasn’t so much cash sloshing about that many at higher levels own multiple premises.

          • Anon1

            Yes let’s build over the countryside to satisfy big Corp and your screwed up ideology.

          • Anon1

            It’s not the season, Clark. Get yourself an OS map. There are millions of miles of public rights of way.

          • Clark

            “You’re not allowed here, can’t you see we’re raising pheasants? You wan’t to be careful, you might get shot. We’ll shoot your dog!”

            I’ve met hundreds of ’em. Bullies and cowards.

          • Clark

            They take down the stiles, the signs and the way-markers, they block the footpaths or plough them over, “get off my land”. They even say the same thing here where I live; pure bravado, threaten me with the gun, and they have no right; I know they’re not the landowners, but they try it on anyway. They cut down the kiddies rope swings over the streams; just want it all to themselves.

          • Anon1


            Clark said he can’t visit most of the countryside. How much of the countryside is shot for grouse?

            Clark probably goes deliberately wandering all over pheasant pens looking for an argument and then wonders why people get angry with him. He then tries to engage the landowner in some pointless debate about why there should be no borders. I know the type.

          • Clark

            What’s your problem Anon1? I was born in Ilford, Essex. Have I strayed from the path?

            Funny, I’m white, but you want to tell me where I’m allowed and where I’m not. Going on about “immigrants” is just a cover; you want to tell everyone where they can be and where they can’t.

            It’s your own problem. You are not superior. Live with it.

          • MaryPaul

            Surely the arrival in a country ; or region or town or village0 of a significant number of people from abroad from a different culture who speak a different language, follow a different religion, (some of whose beliefs are at odds with local religion and customs) and who settle in “ghettos” and show little desire to integrate with the community in which they live, must dilute the local culture.

          • Clark

            I think it’s two different effects.

            The modern way of life disbands communities. People move house or area for multiple reasons: because they can; to move for a new job or a better school for their children; to get away from a new road, industrial estate or retail park; because they’re climbing the property ladder; because they want to live in a ”better area’; etc.

            If other people arrive and form community, practice another culture, it can look as though the previous culture has been replaced or diluted. But they moved and dispersed for their own reasons, not because they were displaced.

        • Andyoldlabour

          @MaryPaul, nobody can answer those questions, because there is not an answer to that question. There is not an answer, because there is not a solution.
          England is the most populated country in the EU (apart from Monaco of course), and in my lovely village in the garden of England, we have a sign in computer at the GP surgery where we have a choice between 2 languages – Polish and English – Polish comes first.
          That is wrong, very wrong IMHO.
          I am sick of this stinking situation, where we are labelled of being xenophobic, when we are one of the most tolerant countries on the planet, and I say this as someone who has travelled extensively, who is married to someone from Iran, and has experienced the attitudes of people in other countries to “foreigners” – particularly Eastern Europe, Poland in particular.

          • Clark

            A mile from where I grew up there was a significant Polish community. The second generation and onwards spoke English like the English, but the first generation could not. I wonder what it was like after the Second World War, when that first generation arrived?

          • Jo1

            England isn’t an EU member, the UK is, so you cannot compare it with other EU member countries. I’m not being pedantic here. It’s just that, as a Scot, I’ve heard so many people telling me that Scotland’s situation is irrelevant as it’s “not a country, it’s part of the UK!” It seems only fair to apply the same status to England.

      • Anon1

        Yes, bad thing. This is already one of the most overcrowded countries in the world. We (and I speak for the overwhelming majority of this country, not corporations and overgrown hippies) do not want our country paved over to accommodate immigrants. We don’t want the strain it places on public services. We dont want the NHS to be the world’s ‘free’ health service. We don’t want a pool of cheap labour that drives down wages. We don’t want the extra burden on the welfare state. We don’t want the crime or the unemployment. But perhaps most of all, we would like to preserve this country’s own culture and identity, just as everyone else does.

        • Clark

          Anon1, I do not share your fear of people who seem different. I’ve suffered quite enough from the fists, boots and cars of my compatriots. It makes no difference where people are from, they share similar faults, and the reasons for unemployment, lack of services etc. are political, not racial.

          • Clark

            You idiot Brexiteers, you have reduced my political cage from twenty-eight to one country. Who on Earth would be so fearful that they’d actually vote to have their cage reduced?

          • Anon1

            There’s virtually no integration, Clark. The whole point is to have multiple cultures (see “Multiculturalism”) because people don’t just magically become British on receipt of a piece of paper. Try telling the Japanese that they are racist and hateful for not hrowing the doors open to the third world. I chatted with a Japanese tourist in London recently who couldn’t believe what we’ve done to ourselves. “This is supposed to be England!” he said. The whole world laughs at the West now. People are tribal, whether you like it or not.

            Btw, if you weren’t such an annoyingly pious and self-righteous little prick the whole time you probably wouldn’t get your head kicked in. Just a thought.

          • Clark

            Anon1, your enemy isn’t ‘foreigners’, it’s cheap air travel. People bring culture, but it doesn’t somehow dissolve culture that already exists. The thing that does dissolve culture is corporatism; everyone eating McDonalds and staring into iPhones all day, walking around with headphones on instead of talking to people. All the advertising that attempts to indoctrinate everyone that they look bad or smell bad unless they buy Product X, that people will treat them as inferiors unless they display wealth in the form of corporate products.

            The whole world is becoming more similar, but it’s corporatism that’s doing it, putting identical buildings and cars everywhere; immigration just adds a bit of human colour, thank God.

          • Anon1

            What’s the opposite of scared, Clark? Confident? I am confident that I am right and you are wrong. The vast majority of people are on my side, not yours. Even the old left are on my side. It’s natural, if you think about it, not to want to be replaced. That’s why you can’t argue the points and instead resort to smears about being racist and hateful. You’ve never even done a day’s work in your life. You just float around on the labour of others telling people how they ought to think and behave. This is why you get beaten in a lot.

          • ADKC

            Clark & Anon1,
            You are both part of the problem and you both need each other.
            You both argued on made up facts, insults ( both of you insulting whole groups of people; you didn’t even have the decency to keep the insults personal) and on issues that you were both insincere about.

          • Clark

            What on Earth makes you feel you’re being “replaced” Anon1? What does that even mean?

            Interesting to see you repeatedly justifying violence.

          • Anon1

            Nobody is justifying violence, Clark. You just may wish to have a quiet moment with yourself and ask some searching questions about how you got into this state of being a walking punchbag.

          • George

            Is Anon1 actually beating Clark up? He seems to think he is. Or is he just punching and kicking a dummy he made up himself?

          • ADKC

            ‘You idiot Brexiteers’

            What a massive own goal. Anon1 must have loved that.

            The thread isn’t about brexit but you raised it and insulted at least half your audience. Actually more than half; do you really believe that all those who voted to remain are happy to have those who voted leave described as ‘idiot Brexiteers’?

            In raising it you illustrated that you are not really concerned about immigration or racism. Your concern is staying in the EU and your own convenience. You’ll be up in arms about that because its something you refuse to see in yourself, but its fairly apparent to your audience.

          • Clark

            George, Anon1’s “beating up” remarks are because I pointed out that I have been threatened and attacked by British people, see my comment 19:53 above. That doesn’t fit the picture that Anon1 like to paint, in which “Muslims” are violent and “the English” are victims. Therefore Anon1 has to find some fault in me whereby I “bring it upon myself”.

          • Clark

            ADKC, 22:46; point taken.

            A apologise to people who voted Leave that I wrote “you idiot Brexiteers”. I was angry with Anon1. I know some Leave voters myself, and they have various reasons for the choice they made, some of which I respect.

          • George

            I understand, Clark. But it’s interesting how bullies always try to absolve themselves of their crimes by claiming their victims always “bring it on themselves”. Every time I read Anon1 (and I really should stop) he comes across as an aggressive loner tearing apart self-made puppets in his bedroom.

          • Andyoldlabour

            why do you have to insult people to get your point (what is your point?) across? Nobody is saying that we fear/dislike/hate people from other countries, nothing could be further from the truth. I am half Irish, one quarter French, married to an Iranian (been to Iran several times, incredibly friendly and generous people), and I love travelling around Europe. I love to experience the different customs and cultures.
            What I am dismayed about, is the fact that our infrastructure is crumbling, the NHS is being destroyed by the Tories, GP surgeries are closing down, there are homeless on our streets, austerity measures have been placed on the UK by the government (which still has enough money to bribe the DUP and buy US made fighter jets for our warship), and yet some people think it OK to welcome unlimited numbers of people into the country, which will put even more pressure on our services.
            From an economic point of view, introducing millions of employees into the workplace (at a time when more and more jobs are being lost to advances in technology) has the effect of driving down wages – a race to the bottom, where ordinary people suffer the most.
            You seem to be dragging race and religion into the subject, which is emotive, rather than looking at it from a logical, economic point of view.

          • Clark

            Andyoldlabour, I apologise; please see my Aug 23, 23:31 comment above, third comments up as I post this. It contains a typo; ‘A’ instead of ‘I’. I was angry with Anon1, who is quite clearly either xenophobic, or wishes to spread xenophobia – with a clear bias against Muslims and a notable exception regarding Israelis. In emotionally driven haste I failed to target my comment accurately upon Anon1 and similar.

            A fair proportion of my friends live, work, have family or came from mainland Europe, and I do think it is short-sighted to have voted to dismantle the union which has encouraged such country-spanning community. The pro-Remain Tories who called the referendum as a publicity stunt simply assumed a strong Remain result which would bolster their position, very similar to May’s snap general election which resulted in the ‘surprise’ massive swing to Labour. Cameron’s government therefore presented absolutely no proposal as to how the separation was to be carried out; who must leave and who may stay, who may remain abroad and who must return, nor any of the essential legal and economic rearrangements that are currently being botched so badly. It’s one thing to vote for a declared plan, but another entirely to vote for a sweeping gesture on the basis of just one of its proposed effects, as if that one aspect was a magic bullet that would remedy all the economic maladministration you rightly highlight.

            ‘Leave’ was never a sensible vote because it was merely a word and never a plan, but it was a vote for which a large section of the corporate media had been preparing the ground for decades, with stupid stories about bananas, oven gloves, and how cheeses are named, plus of course relentless demonisation of ‘immigrants’, most of whom weren’t from EU countries.

            An appropriate target would have been NATO, whose wars have precipitated massive displacement, but the corporate media are always jingoistic and pro-war, so what distraction from that could be better suited than the EU?

            Sorry I got mad.

        • Jo1

          You do not speak for me “Anon1”. In fact, you don’t speak for yourself here when you’re even unwilling to give yourself a name!

      • Cesca

        Great reply Clark, then factor in stuff like the UK is an ageing demographic with a massive Baby Boomers pension and care crisis in the offing, in need of an influx of young migrants to avert disaster.

        It fascinates me that areas where immigration is counted a prob have a low rate of immigrants, high immigrant areas don’t seem to find it an issue.

          • Cesca

            PPS Think it was in ’16 the number of women having their first baby in their 30’s, outnumbered those having their first baby in their 20’s, for the first time. Our ageing demographic prob will get much worse.

        • glenn_nl

          Great idea, Cesca, to have a huge influx of migrants, who will supposedly look after our old people. Some of them might, anyway. But what happens when these migrants get old – will we have to double down, and get another load of migrants to look after them? How many generations do you think it will take, before this becomes unsustainable?

          • Clark

            Glenn, I sympathise with the Welsh Leave vote, because Wales really has seen its population displaced, by wealthy English buying up most of the former farm premises and leaving them empty most of the year as holiday homes. Wales has seen its language almost wiped out by English; ironically, I think it was EU diversity laws that eventually addressed that, possibly too late.

            There’s a big difference though. The English economy was and remains dominant over the Welsh economy. Welsh people moved away to find work, and their former homes were bought up with spare wealth from England. Wales was economically overwhelmed. But this was the opposite of the situation of migration into Britain, in which relatively poorer people are attracted by the stronger economy.

    • ADKC

      Crumbs, Clark, the west is destroying and destablising countries, killing people at an ever increasing rate with drones. And now we’re threatening Iran a country of 80 million. All this so the west can secure control of resources and a never ending supply of cheap labour. But the solution is a bit more money in our pockets.

        • Clark

          One doesn’t attack one’s equal.

          One who has accepted equality doesn’t attack. The other’s life and right to resources and right to peace are equal to one’s own.

          • ADKC

            We attack and kill our equals all the time. This woolly thinking of yours is not going to stop war.

            I don’t for one second think that you believe Anon1 is your equal and, if so, that makes you a hypocrit.

            Anon1 doesn’t regard you as an equal either, but he isn’t claiming to.

  • Pyewacket

    Here’s another curious case to add to the list of those who met their untimely end by perhaps knowing too much. I guess many of the regulars on Craig’s site will readily recall the very strange circumstances surrounding the death of Gareth Williams, the young Maths prodigy, who worked for GCHQ and died whilst on secondment to MI6, and was living in a safe house belonging to them in Pimlico by almost impossibly zipping himself into a sports holdall in his bath. Interestingly; the Coroner strongly suspected the involvement of others, after a three year investigation Scotland Yard came to a different conclusion.


  • N_

    I’ve just read Dominic Raab’s speech.

    Summary: it’s a crock. “Deal” is the word on every television watcher’s lips. What does the word mean in this Trumpian epoch? (Those of a delicate disposition, please look away now.) The word “deal” seems to mean what you get when you squeeze someone’s testicles as hard as you can until he submits to you. The model for such a way of operating is Idi Amin in Uganda, who used to enjoying doing literally that.

    In the real world, a “deal” requires negotiation, and negotiation requires give and take. What concessions is Britain offering to give EU27 and what are concessions are they asking for in return? Don’t expect to read the answers in the media or in ministers’ speeches.

    Middle-class chatterers who base their chatter on uncritically considering what’s in such speeches and spewed out by leading journalists are right down there with wrestling watchers as far as I am concerned.

    For some reason preferring to use a US dialect to a British one (sorry but which country he is a minister of?), Raab says “We’ve passed legislation to make sure that the UK has the legal powers it needs to support British truckers [sic] to continue operating internationally“.

    Oh really? I notice he says “support”, not “enable”, but how can a British law give the British government the legal power to help British lorry drivers to continue to conduct commercial activity on foreign soil?

    He also says

    We’re making sure our farmers get the funds they’ve applied for“.

    Good idea, that. If it ain’t worth those subsidised grantgrabbers’ while, they won’t bring in the harvest and they may just slaughter all their animals and not even sow grain. Just saying. That’s been the experience elsewhere. Got to wonder whether there are any strategists – in the civil service, the Carlton Club, or wherever – who are reading up on Stalin.

    (Government notices) will provide information and guidance, and, after some of the misinformation that has been put about lately, some reassurance. Take just one example of that, the suggestion that a no deal Brexit could spark a ‘sandwich famine’ in the UK, or that we’ve asked the army to deliver food supplies. In reality, our food and drink supply is diverse.

    “Diverse”. Ah, that’s OK then.

    In 2016, DEFRA food statistics show, the UK supplied half of the food we consumed. 30% did come from the EU, 20% from the rest of the world.

    I’m not making this shit up. A fall of even 5% in total food supply might well mean in some areas it falls by 50% or more. Food supply to a country isn’t like a big tank of water that you can measure the level in, and if it goes down a few percent for a while that’s not a big problem. Is that what McKinsey etc. are telling the government? I doubt it.

    Who is credibly suggesting, in a no deal scenario, that the EU would not want to continue to sell food to UK consumers?

    This is such an idiotic question it’s almost unbelievable. And this guy was a business lawyer. Wanting isn’t getting. Whether they continue to supply depends on a) their costs, and b) their revenue. Costs include the costs of paperwork and of physical hold-ups, which in the case of perishable items can be considerable. And revenue depends on the exchange rate, and it’s largely accepted that in the event of a WTO Brexit sterling will fall. So FUCK YOU, Raab, you are taking your listeners for complete morons.

    In any event, we’ve set out practical measures to mitigate any risks of disruption to supply. Through the recognition of EU food standards, our pursuit of equivalency arrangements on food regulation with the EU and indeed with non-EU countries, and through our support for UK farmers in terms of financial funding schemes.

    “Regulation” has little to do with it. What he means is he will allow food lorries into the country without many formalities. Right, so what’s he going to sell to prop up the pound?

    And as for “support for UK [sic] farmers”, what’s that got to do with imports?

    And there are no plans to deploy the army to maintain food supplies.

    He’s just taking the piss.

    Then he segues from food to immigration.

    I think it’s also worth saying that most of the worst case scenarios, being bandied around, imply that the EU would resist all and any mutual cooperation with the UK.

    In reality, I find it difficult to imagine that our EU partners would not want to cooperate with us even in that scenario in key areas like this, given the obvious mutual benefits involved.

    At the same time, in the unlikely and I think regrettable event of no deal, a balanced appraisal should recognise that there would also be some countervailing opportunities.

    The immediate recovery of full legislative and regulatory control, including over immigration policy.

    He keeps referring to “ambition” and “pragmatism”. Those words sound designed to play well in France (“ambition) and Germany and the Netherlands (“pragmatism”). What a silly sod.

    • remember kronstadt

      Historic world champions of Brexits – imperial masters of blood, of others, and tears, our own

    • N_

      The government’s advice on how to cope with Brexageddon the gentle walk in the park that a no deal Brexit would be is here.

      There’s not much in it, and what’s in it is cack. For example, under “Banking, insurance and other financial services if there’s no Brexit deal”, they say that they’re “proposing a new economic and regulatory arrangement with the EU.”

      That’s not “no deal” then, is it?

      Question: “What are you going to do in the event of no deal?”
      Answer: “We’re proposing a deal”.

      • Hatuey

        Soon, N, you’ll hopefully realise that the purported desire to have a deal is spin and stop wasting your energies on trying to make sense of the things they say.

        My guess is that the Labour Party leadership are probably in on it. They’re certainly aware of it. When you look at the last 2 years of politics, it’s hard to avoid the conclusion that the Labour Party have done everything necessary to stay completely out of the Brexit debate. Even when their hand has been forced they have taken a passive “whatever” position.

        My advice is to sit back and enjoy the drama. It’s the greatest show on earth. I’m looking forward to the inevitable turmoil. Certain sectors of the English electorate have had it combing for some time.

        From chaos cometh great TV.

    • Sharp Ears

      Not connected to the content of your post but he’s listed here.

      Jewish Conservatives set to sweep their constituencies in UK elections

      I read in The i this morning that Priti Patel received a pay off of £17,000 when she was sacked as DfID Minister ref her unauthorised visits to Israel. Also covered in the ES.

      ‘But details of the payment to Ms Patel are in the Department for International Development’s recently published annual accounts for 2017-18.
      It states under the subject line “Compensation for loss of office (audited)”: “The Rt Hon Priti Patel left under severance terms on 8 November 2017 and received a severance payment of £16,876.” Witham MP Ms Patel was forced to apologise in November for the private meetings with senior Israeli government figures held during an August holiday. The Prime Minister fired her after fresh revelations about them.’

      YCNMIU. She wins twice over. We still don’t know what she got up to in Israel.

      • Sharp Ears

        I believe she visited the Golan Heights.

        Netanyahu ‘still hopes’ US will recognize Israel’s Golan Heights sovereignty claim
        23 Aug, 2018 10:55

        Israel still hopes Washington will recognize its claim to sovereignty over the Golan Heights, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Thursday. Israel captured much of the Golan from Syria in a 1967 war and annexed it, in a move not endorsed internationally. In May, a senior Israeli official said that US recognition could be forthcoming within months.

        During a visit to Israel this week US National Security Advisor John Bolton told Reuters that “there’s no discussion of it, no decision within the US government.” Netanyahu was asked whether Israel, in light of Bolton’s remarks, had dropped expectations of US recognition of Israel’s Golan claim. He replied: “Would I give up on such a thing? No way.”’

      • Michael McNulty

        And I believe it is tax-free. I remember around 2002 David Blunkett had to resign for an infidelity … some wit said he wanted to spend more time with someone else’s family … and that payoff was £18,000 tax free. I would think it’s the same package.

      • Dungroanin

        Has any proof been published of Patel’s personal payment for her holiday?

        As Patels resignation statement stated that she was on a personal family holiday to Israel (!) and therefore it was not a trip to meet the Israeli officials and Parts of the occupied Golan heights (did she take her family on the jolly visits?)

    • MaryPaul

      Regarding EU food exports post Brexit. The UK must be a very big market for EU agricultural produce. Where are they going to sell it post Brexit? To each other? I do not really buy that. There is a lot of stuff needs a hot climate to grow and many of the potential markets have one and grow similar stuff internally already. Scandinavia. ? How manh Swedes Danes Find and Norwegians are there? Enough to buy all the produce the EU can no longer work in the UK? Doubt that. In any case they will be making up shortfall in EU budget from loss of UK subs. Sainsbury’s already seems to be diversifying on suppliers outside the EU. My local Sainsbury’s now sells apples from south Africa, tomatoes from Morocco and. I noticed today, fresh basil from Kenya.

      • N_

        Interesting info about food from outside the EU.

        As for suppliers inside the EU, they are not going to buy a pig in a poke and face the risk of running their lorries’ refrigeration units off of generators indefinitely while they wait in line for their paperwork to be checked. Even if the British government says “Look, OK, the country’s in trouble, so just come on through” – which at some point they are likely to – they aren’t charities and they are going to want to make at least the same amount of profit as before, in euros. What kind of price rises would we be looking at? They’re going to want to know they’ll make a profit before the lorries set off for Calais.

        • MaryPaul

          well clearly the suppliers I mentioned above – in south Africa, Morocco and Kenya have found a way to cope with the export paperwork. Interestingly I read a statement by someone a while back, I think it was from someone in Sainsbury’s, who said they sent their own lorries to France for some produce, I forget which, which was processed on site there and then driven back to the UK straight to their depot.

          • Anakim

            The major supermarkets have been importing food from Morocco and Tunisia and other non EU for years.

    • Node

      The model for such a way of operating is Idi Amin in Uganda, who used to enjoying doing literally that.

      …. or did he?

      I remember those horror stories of the mad buffoon who kept human heads in his fridge, and I believed them at the time. But since then I’ve noticed that such headlines are reserved for leaders who defy the Western powers. What event sparked the media’s demonisation of Idi Amin? Was it any more justified than their subsequent similar treatment of Saddam Hussein, Mugabe, Gaddafi, Assad, Putin?

      • N_

        Fair point. I’ve only read anti-Amin accounts, and it’s true that British publishers and media didn’t spread these stories while Britgov was employing and backing him.

        • Node

          I believe this quote from Wikipedia holds the key to why Amin was initially welcomed by the West, but then demonised.

          During his years in power, Amin shifted from being a pro-western ruler, enjoying considerable Israeli support to being backed by Libya’s Muammar Gaddafi, Zaire’s Mobutu Sese Seko, the Soviet Union, and East Germany.[2][3][4]


      • Shatnersrug

        The telegraph said of Amin “..a great friend and ally of Britain and a welcome relief from the state socialism of Obote”. Who had done

        Obote ofcourse creates a socialist state with excellent healthcare and education, when Amin the acedemics fled to the UK where they became extremely successful, my good friends father settled them in Birmingham he a scientist worked for British Gas giving them several patents, my friend went on to design radar systems for the MOD before he realised he hates it.

        Goes to show Uganda’s destruction was a boon for Britain (of course) and Amin handed back the mining etc to the establishment so all good till he dared to cross them.

        Of course he was treated to a full on state visit meetings with the queen and up to Scotland where he pronounces himself king.

        The war photographer Don McCullum ended up in Makindye where prisoners executed the one in front with a sledge hammer. Although I don’t believe he saw it with his own eyes, so who knows. I doubt Amin was a upstanding chap, but once he went rouge the papers came up with all these stories, they treat the public like idiots I don’t know why they even bother with it. It’s not like they care

        • kronstadt

          After Amin’s death, David Owen revealed that when he was the British Foreign Secretary, he had proposed having Amin assassinated. He has defended this, arguing: “I’m not ashamed of considering it, because his regime goes down in the scale of Pol Pot as one of the worst of all African regimes”.[59]


          and ultimately settled in Saudi Arabia, where the Saudi royal family allowed him sanctuary and paid him a generous subsidy in return for staying out of politics.[12]

  • Trowbridge H. Ford

    I most belatedly add that you should have mentioned the USA being the Godfather of it all especially since Trump has become POTUS. Took a holiday while Paul Manafort was facing the music for paying all the hush money to the Russians for trying to make out the she too is a vile criminal.

    You helped him to become so particularly by your claiming the you supplied the Hillary emails which were from a domestic US source to Wikileaks, making it sound like they originally came from Seth Rich who was murdered like a mafia snitch.

  • Republicofscotland

    Looks like Trump will have to move quick to pardon Paul Manafort, in case he decides to change his mind. Michael Cohen however has spilt the beans as they say on payouts of hush money.

    Trump appears to be on safe ground for now with regards to impeachment. However, the Democratics could take control of the Senate, and the House of Representatives in the November elections.

    Looking ahead if Trump is impeached, he’ll probably give all his buddies pardons, and then get Mike Pence into the Whitehouse hotseat, who’ll then pardon Trump. Just as Ford did for Nixon.

    However if Trump is seen to be making the people of America richer? Then Trump could dodge the bullet. Robert Mueller, may well be following the money, but if Trump is making it for the right people, it will be more difficult to remove him.

    • Nick

      RoS, I really hate playing the the devil’s advocate here again, but why is this an impeachable offence? Doesn’t everyone do it? Obama did (see my previous post). Doesn’t the FEC just fine people?

      I admit my understanding of the nuances is probably lacking, and I’m in UK.

      • Republicofscotland

        Good question Nick.

        I’m playing along with the premise, that’s been bandied about at present, which goes something like this.

        Michael Cohen plead guilty to two counts of campaign finance violations, that are not a crime.

        President Obama had a big campaign violation, which was easily settled. Due to it being a “technical one” whatever that meant.

        However Trump and Cohen were (allegedly) paying off women whose testimonies, just might have affected the outcome of the election. Ergo, the call for an impeachment from some quarters.

        • Nick

          Thanks RoS, appreciate the response. I guess your viewpoint depends on whether this counts as “high crimes and misdemeanors [sic]” and who to believe. Personally, to me, it seems a bit thin. But hey, I guess the mid-terms will be interesting.

        • Jo1

          I see the media are all over the Salmond allegations which surfaced yesterday. What’s your take?

          Interestingly, some senior figure at Holyrood is already adding fuel to the fire by claiming he tried to “gag” her. Very unprofessional of her since the line being used elsewhere by the SG is, “We cannot comment….” etc.

          You don’t have to believe this but, back in May, when Salmond declared he was ready to go on the campaign trail as soon as Sturgeon called Indyref2, I wondered if that would be allowed to come to pass. And, lo, three months later we have vague allegations from FIVE years ago thrown into the mix and claims he’s been referred to police!

          I’ve read the statement he issued yesterday and found it interesting. Clearly it’s a serious matter however I have to say the “process” business at Holyrood really is appalling! I’m pleased that Salmond is taking it on.

    • Vivian O'Blivion

      My understanding that impeachment is astronomically improbable. Only a fraction of total seats are up for grabs in November. Two thirds of the Senate is required to pass a motion of impeachment. The electoral college configuration of the Senate distorts the impact of the popular vote wildly (“there are more people called Dakota in California than there are people in North Dakota” © Bill Maher).

    • Hatuey

      He’s already made many Americans richer. The last time I looked, employment was up about 6 million. And, going out on a limb, I guess that there’s more than a few Americans who are glad to be alive thanks to Trump’s foreign policy — numbers on that range between 1 and several hundred million.

      When you boil down all the crap they say about Trump, he’s basically a daft guy who screwed around with a lot of women and paid them to keep quiet about it. Big deal.

      When Clinton was caught doing that sort of thing, the same people that are attacking Trump now were defending Clinton and most sane people couldn’t believe that a president could be hounded out of office over such trivial nonsense.

      • Clark

        “there’s more than a few Americans who are glad to be alive thanks to Trump’s foreign policy — numbers on that range between 1 and several hundred million”

        Er, there aren’t “several hundred million” US Americans in total.

        “Trump, he’s basically a daft guy who screwed around with a lot of women and paid them to keep quiet about it”

        He also lost the fortune he inherited and had to be bailed out by his family, despite his corrupt building practices with the mob.

        • Nick

          I thought there are several hundred million US Americans in total? Pop around 327 million in 2018?

          • Clark

            It depends how you read ‘several’. I usually take ‘few’ as around three, ‘several’ around five to seven.

            Whatever, there’s no way Trump’s foreign policy has saved the entire US population from death, not even if he’s averted nuclear war! Actually, I think he nearly started one recently, in Syria. With a bit of help from the UK and France, naturally.

          • Iain Stewart

            “It depends how you read ‘several’. I usually take ‘few’ as around three, ‘several’ around five to seven.”
            What about around four? Maybe “a number”.

          • Nick

            I’m hoping we can all agree it’s more than two and less than…err…10. In hindsight I shouldn’t have gone there 😉

          • ADKC

            Clark, Earlier you took issue with my concern about nuclear war, basically minimising the possibility of it happening. And here I find that you are concerned about Trump nearly causing a nuclear war?

            Trump was manouvred into launching cruise missiles against Syria. The UK was instrumental in trapping Trump into this position. Russia made clear that they would defend Syria by intercepting any missile and destroying the delivery system (i.e. any ships that the missiles were launched from). We were on the verge of war with Russia and in such an event the possibilities of a rapid escalation to a nuclear exchange was considerable. The UK and France were also going to launch cruise missiles. Pathetically, I wrote to my MP and PM pleading that Syria not be attacked. I was so angry with Trump when the attack was launched and I expected the worst but nothing happened?

            What Trump had done was agree with the Russians to launch missiles at two empty buildings and stop at a particular time. As a result the US had launched 60 cruise missiles (more than in a number of recent wars; so a relatively large number) but no one was killed. So Trump, far from nearly causing a war with Russia, actually averted one.

            However, the attack will cause deaths and birth defects because of the depleted uranium in the missiles. These deaths and birth defects won’t be restricted to Syria as a cloud of DU also wafted over Europe. (I guess that satisfies any equal opportunity issues).

            However, it is believed that there were some nasty surprises for the west. Russian defences are believed to have had considerable success in intercepting US cruise missiles. UK and France where unable to achieve any successful launches. And once the time came to stop Russia immediately targeted the western fleet who were then completely at the mercy of Russian missiles. Russian weapons are believed to have performed much better than expected. And that is why Russia has been experiencing a huge surge in demand for its weapon systems, which seems to indicate that what I have outlined is what happened.

            So Trump did prevent a disaster, like it or not.

            Teresa May never responded to my letter.

          • Clark

            What I understood to have happened (from the best informed news junkie I have ever encountered, using various military monitoring sources) was that Russia just planned and fought better with, as you say, unexpectedly good weapons. They concentrated their new anti-missile-missile systems to defend important targets and thus intercepted all those incoming missiles, but thereby leaving an empty building and a car park unprotected, which consequently were hit.

            I also wrote to my MP; a new, young, parachuted-in Tory. I didn’t even get a reply.

            Trump clearly has an enthusiastic fan club; just look at his numerous new hero-worshippers at this site! I expect that the remainder of your shining Trump success story was hammered out by this fan club, post hoc.

        • ZiggyM

          ” despite his corrupt building practices with the mob”

          Clark, during the time he was starting his empire in the 80’s.
          It was almost impossible for anyone involved in construction, and then running hotels in New York not have involvement with the mob on some level.
          Just the way it was.

        • Hatuey

          There’s about 400 million Americans. I don’t think referring to them as several is out of place.

          You’re clearly loathe to admit the truth of Trump. He’s a peace maker…and a deal maker… a womaniser too. I wish more presidents were wired like that.

          Where are all the morons who shouted about giving peace a chance and making love not war today? Here we have a president you should support, where are you now?

          Was all that crap about peace just another slab of leftist lies deployed to win votes?

          • Clark

            Of course, “anarchist” Hatuey; Trump has already saved the entire US population! How incredibly dishonest of me not to have given him credit.

            All hail Trump, shining saviour of the US and all humanity!

            (never heard the phrases “gullible fool” and “useful idiot”? Grief; what passes for anarchism these days?)

      • Clark

        Hatuey, there’s no way you’re an anarchist if you support Trump. You’re some combination of misinformed and US-style libertarian.

        • Trowbridge H. Ford

          Trump is relying on the threat of impeachment after the mid-term elections because the markets are on the brink of another bubble burst. Everyone knows its coming, and Donald is counting on its likelihood to keep the scumbag in office.

        • Hatuey

          Why is it important to label people?

          You should concerns yourself with facts. Folk psychology will get you nowhere.

          I don’t support Trump. I object to the idea that I support anything in the sense you use it. Life isn’t a game of football.

          I think Trump was a better choice of President than Hillary Clinton. That doesn’t mean I support anything.

          Trump has totally defused the Korean peninsula. Did Obama do that? He had 8 years to do it. Would Hillary have done so?

          Trump has also de-escalated in Iran where Hillary proposed to shoot down Russian planes inside her totally illegal no-fly zone.

          We can talk about the economics of Trump too, although, again, it’s early days. The signs are good. Several hundred million Americans are not only still alive but many are working and better off.

  • Loony

    Who can ever forget the evil Donald Trump personally ripping apart innocent Mexican illegal migrant families. Parents who had merely thrown their children into the Rio Grande suddenly deprived of their human right to throw their children into large bodies of water.

    What makes the pure and good Mexican risk entering into a state run by a Fascist/Nazi/Racist/Misogynist/Sexist?

    Why step forward Volkswagen – a company headquartered in the heart of the pure and noble and munificent EU. And what have Volkswagen been doing? Why causing a drought in Mexico – harming food production and destroying the Mexican agricultural base.


    How fortunate for Mexicans that they are being destroyed by good and holy forces as opposed to the Nazi/Fascist etc etc Trump.

    • Republicofscotland

      “Why step forward Volkswagen – a company headquartered in the heart of the pure and noble and munificent EU. ”


      Sarcasm doesn’t befit your wacky approach at times. Everyone knows fine well that the EU, isn’t a utopian body. However in my opinion, it’s more of a force for good, than evil.

      As for Volkswagon, I’m pretty sure there are any number of global companies right now abusing the natural environment, of any number of countries around the world. Some of them, will surely be American based.

      Infact right now with Trump’s approval I might add, fracking in America, is, at an all time high, and we all know the consequences of pumping those toxic chemicals into the ground.

    • Nick

      I have to say, there does seem to be a fair amount of double standards being applied all over the place.

      I’m still trying to grapple with what’s going on with the Steele dossier, Mueller’s investigation appears pretty partisan. I guess if you believe Trump to be the son of Satan (didn’t he tweet that at one point?) then that’s ok, the end justifies the means.

    • Clark

      Yep, that’s what big corporations do – move production to where it’s cheapest and least regulated.

      They actually have a duty to their shareholders to maximise returns.

      Obviously this proves that Trump is humanity’s saviour. Not.

      • Loony

        No it does not prove or in any way advise as to the policies of President Trump.

        It does however say a great deal about the people so outraged by US treatment of illegal migrants and yet so sanguine and uncaring as to the actions of Volkswagen. It says a great deal about people who support the EU – people who are often are keen to smear anyone who does not support the EU, but who have absolutely nothing to say regarding the actions of Volkswagen.

        Just in case the foregoing is too subtle, the charge is one of double standards with those standards not being motivated by concern for Mexicans or anyone else but motivated by hatred of people who have the temerity to take an opposite view.

        • Clark

          Well if you’re criticising overly polarised argument, you shouldn’t indulge in it so much yourself because it just provokes more of the same. Alternatively, if your contribution here is essentially parody, then you’re provoking the very behaviour that you’re mocking.

        • ADKC

          Loony you are right about this.
          You did not exaggerate, in fact you underestimated the problem. There are many western companies behaving in the most appalling way in countries that are poor and have weak regulatuon. Many of these company collude with government officials to murder trade unionists, environmental activitists and indigeonous people. The concern in western country is extremely muted. The west is fundamentally hypocritical.

      • Radar O’Reilly

        Picking you up mildly on ‘duty to shareholders’ there’s a fascinating article criticizing Germany’s Mi5, the BfV (Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz), that suggests they wish to rewrite the German constitution to worship Capitalism. It suggests that in Germany at least, the intel agencies are madly interfering in society, boosting/supporting some extremists, to en extent including murders. Just one datapoint, just one country, again, but it might have extremely close parallels with why some here on this UK blog and other UK media continue to big-up some eejit called “Tommy” and surveil all the rest. again.

        Capitalism is fine, least-worst system and all that, but when intelligence agencies are trying to boost the profit due to shareholders, that’s not strictly capitalism , but another -ism, again.

        Musicians’ group calls for shutdown of the German secret service


    • pete

      Re Volkswagen The site Loony quoted said:

      “A spokesman for VW said on Wednesday that the company would immediately suspend the use of the machines in automatic mode, following meetings with state authorities this week.

      “Once the anti-hail nets are installed in the yards, they will be used as the main measure for the protection of vehicles, while the devices will serve as a secondary tool and will only be used in manual mode,” he added.

      “With these actions, Volkswagen de México expresses its commitment to maintain sustainable relationships with its stakeholders: environment, neighbouring communities and authorities.””

      Which is obviously a PR face-saving type statement, but indicates that they are aware of the problem they have caused. The picture of a dead cow at the top of the article is obviously intended to excite emotions, I have no idea if it is in any way related to the story it accompanies.

  • SA

    The current state of the world is reaching a point of political unsustainability. The traditional working class has become irrelevant to wealth creation in developed economies where deliberate de-industrialisation has been slowly enacted since the Reagan/Thatcher days.. The working classes in developing countries have become enslaved to international corporations which are not subject to nation state laws and therefore totally disempowered. These factors, together with the monetisation of non-manufactured products and the mass capture of commerce by internet based sales, has meant that more and more money is being concentrated in fewer pockets. This has lead to the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer and disempowered. Marxism in this context is becoming less relevant to reverse this trend. In my view, the only salvation is a new form of politics where common good is not allowed to become a vehicle of accumulation but should be freely used. After all, the internet, the digital revolution, the complex running of a major city, major manufacturing and so on depend on myriads of people with sustained efforts to carry these structures. At the top of these virtual or real enterprises, sit few individuals with too much money and undue influence. A change is called for but sadly will not be forthcoming.
    Another aspect of unsustainability because of selective application is the so-called globalisation. The EU has attempted to have its own version of european globalisation by insisting on the 4 freedoms being indivisible, a fact that is giving brexiters a headache, whereas globalisation has only encouraged freedom for money and services but not for movement of people.. That is why globalisation is such a neoliberal capitalist con used as a form of neo-colonialism.

    • Nick

      SA, thanks for the post. It interested me because if I understood correctly, you’re anti-globalist. Does that mean you’re pro-Nation State?

      I’m not sure what I think, but have always believed a one-world government would be the most oppressive and corrupt we would ever see.

      • SA

        Thanks Nick for your comment. I am not anti-globalist on principle, just against this particular way of applying globalisation in favour of capital rather than people. The original ideas of the communists led by Lenin was that communism would only succeed if it was implemented on many countries as in ‘workers of the world unite’. Incidentally true communist also advocates light touch government and increased localism. I also don’t believe that globalism should mean a one world government nor of continuing the nation states as they are now, rather that there will be commonality in standards, governance and facilitation of movement within a certain standard and so on but still major localism. Also I believe that true globalism should reduce the need for huge expenditure in arms and an arms race.

        • Nick

          SA – I really appreciated that reply, thank you. Thoughtful, coherent and intelligent. I’m not sure I agree with it, but I’m not sure I don’t. I’d love to dispense Zeus-like bolts of knowledge from a crag of omniscience but…yes…not likely,

          It always seem to me here, we agree on the problem but not the solution. But yeah, how can we do otherwise?

    • Republicofscotland

      “The current state of the world is reaching a point of political unsustainability. ”


      I’m of the opinion, and I said it awhile back, that the rich won the war over the working classes. You have guys like Bannon, Soros and even old nick himself Kissinger, travelling around the globe preparing the ground for the rich, and the corporations to move in.

      The governments of the world often welcome these companies and individuals, with open arms and huge grants to set up and employ citizens, which is good for the population at first.

      However, government policy can and does sometimes pander to the will of big business, which can lead to damage to the environment, a reduction of public spending, and a sidelining of the voices on the left over such matters.

      The war is over, the only weapons the masses have left is to withhold their labour. Even then, there’s a standing army of millions of unemployed, and automation, to fill that void if the masses ever stop squabbling amongst themselves and realise that they have real power in unity.

      But that will never happen, not because it can’t happen, but because the global corporations won’t allow it to. They simple have too much influence over politics and governments.

        • Nick

          Sorry: “`There’s been class warfare for the last 20 years, and my class has won” is the quote.

      • SA

        The battle has been lost but not the war. Capitalism cannot go on the way it is. If workers are less relevant for production they are still valuable as consumers. Either capitalism will continue until it self destructs, or workers will either starve or rebel. I guess the problem at the moment is there is a vacuum in finding an alternative. I do not discredit Marxism as irrelevant but think that it needs tweaking to take into account the facts that added value is now often not produced by contribution of the working class.

        • Anon1

          It needs to take into account that while it looks good on paper, it’s implementation always leads to mass graves.

          • George

            And the implementation of capitalism always leads to peace. The 20th Century didn’t have a single war. And now that capitalism rules everywhere, the planet is completely peaceful.

          • SA

            I am not sure what you are talking about. You seem to imply that the implementation of Marxism has always led to mass graves. I will not postulate whether you have read Karl Marx, as that is your own business. Nor do I wish to insinuate that perhaps Stalin did not apply Marxism properly, even though he may not have done so.. However the mass graves have not been one sided. Since the mass graves of the second world war, contributed to by both sides, the contribution to mass grave count has been heavily tilted towards capitalist states. A change has already occured. So all I can say is that you seem to be stuck in the 1940s and not caught up to date with events since then.

        • George

          If it’s true that value can be added without the working class then there’s nothing to stop the rich from disposing of the working class completely. And the world can continue with those rich constantly creating value in this new magical way.

          • SA

            Maybe not entirely, but the work force has been outsourced to those who are less able to unionise. Plus I did mention that the working class is still needed in a major way as consumers which is one of the few reasons why your scenario has not yet happened. Of Course certain service industries still heavily depend on labour such as catering and others but these will eventually be replaced by robots.

      • Clark

        Actually, not so flippant; during the almost unreported March UK gas crisis, we were drawing gas so fast that it caused some small earthquakes off the Dutch coast. They had to reduce the extraction rate.

    • Trowbridge H. Ford

      It’s not nature but the American, Chinese and Russian covert governments.

        • Clark

          “Did the Morandi bridge really fall down?”

          Yeah it did. They got the ratio of concrete to dead bodies too low in most of the major buttresses.

    • Republicofscotland

      “Not directly on topic but has anyone noticed how many severe earthquakes have been occurring in recent weeks ? ”

      Oh Paul, I rather like the notions of yesteryear when it comes to earthquakes. It could be the four elephants standing on the turtles back that hold up the earth moving slightly.

      Or the defeated gods of the Gigantomachy, moving around in their under mountain graves.

      Still I suppose I must yield to the fact that is more than likely tectonic activity.

    • kronstadt

      And we can already hear talk about ‘a universal living allowance’ regardless of work done — pound shops going out of business is a sign of worse times to come

    • pete

      Re earthquake device.
      I can find no evidence of any device to artificially produce earthquakes as a weapon of war, hot or cold. Nikola Tesla was susposed to have designed such a device:
      http://www.excludedmiddle.com/earthquake.htm – this was built by Mythbusters: http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/about-this-show/earthquake-machine/ and proved to be somewhat of a failure, earthquakewise.
      Nevertheless there is a site regarding human induced earthquakes citing 774 cases:
      http://inducedearthquakes.org/ most of these seem to be caused by human activity like mining or fracking. The only scientist I am aware of who built an infra sound device which it is claimed could bring down a building – the nearest I am aware of replicating an earthquake – was a Professor Vladimir Gavreau, whose work is explored at:
      Whether any of his work has been scaled up and would work at a distance and which could also be focused on a particular site is anybodys guess. Infra sound can be quite deadly however, see:

  • Trowbridge H. Ford

    Or the US NRO causing quakes in North Korea which US covert experts claim are nuclear tests.

    Or US special attack subs in Iceland, off Aceh in Indonesia. or off Japan which caused quakes, volcanic eruptions and tsunamis.

    Or the Chinese equivalents which caused. quakes and eruptions in Hawaii which are causing the islands to lose their military importance.

    And then the Russians have opened the Arctic to container ship travel by similar means.

    Think the Genoa bridge collapse was a design and upkeep problem.

  • Republicofscotland

    “Broadcaster, doctor and vocal NHS campaigner Dr Phil Hammond announced on Tuesday that he would stand as a candidate for the National Health Action Party (NHA) in North East Somerset where Rees-Mogg is currently MP.”

    “Just hours later he tweeted that he had been fired from his Saturday mid-morning show on BBC Radio Bristol. ”


    Well at least we know now, that the government’s propaganda machine the BBC, favours a no deal Brexit.

      • glenn_nl

        I do find it strange that Scottish independence types hate the idea of being shackled to the UK (England, anyway), but do want to be ruled by Brussels. Maybe if they’re forced into an “ever closer union” until every last shred of Scottishness is obliterated they’ll change their minds, but it does seem rather opportunistic IMHO. They would have used the Brexit referendum as a reason to scream and shout and demand another Scottish message board whichever way the Brexit vote went.

        • Clark

          In Essex, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, and Lampeter, all places in which I have spent significant time, I’ve never had any feeling that the place I was in was “ruled by Brussels”. The main changes I have noticed that are attributable to the EU have all concerned corporate products; emission systems on cars, low voltage power supplies, consumables supplied in metric quantities; that sort of thing.

          What sort of effects have you experienced as a result of Brussels?

          • wonky

            “What sort of effects have you experienced as a result of Brussels?”
            Please take a long hard look at the rubble the EU left in Greece. Since the Troika literally replaced the Greek parliament, more than 5000 laws have been implemented without any parliamentary discussion or consultation of the public whatsoever. The EU didn’t even bother to translate their thousands of pages of dictat. Now the country officially belongs to banks and multinationals, and foreigners in Frontex uniform control its borders. This alone should end all cheerleading for the totalitarian EU, which is run from Berlin, which is run by the international devil-worshipping 4th Reich billionaire cabal. This comment contains zero irony.

        • Republicofscotland

          “Ruled by Brussels”


          That old chestnut has done the rounds for years. Currently Scotland loses out on a whole host of powers which are retained by Westminster, unlike the other 27 EU nations, who enjoy those powers.

          “I do find it strange that Scottish independence types hate the idea of being shackled to the UK (England, anyway),”

          One wonders if Wales would be in a better position, if it were independent from the UK. I’m sure you’re confident that once the Brussels billions given to Wales dries up, that Westminster will replace the lost revenue.

          It wasn’t that long ago Glenn, that the JRF, claimed that a quarter of the Welsh population lived in poverty. Will losing EU grants make things any better? I very much doubt that.


  • Cesca

    Like a lot of ppl, i’m totally sick of the constant demonisation of Russia, Salisbury? Let’s see the evidence, MH17? True it was brought down by a BUK, thing is it was an ancient one which the Russians haven’t used for years apparently.

    Think this funny vid helps put things in perspective: Whatever goes wrong, you can always blame a Russian! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlwEwwJcBTM

  • Trowbridge H. Ford

    144 quakes in the last week of significant impact.

    More than Mother Nature at work.

    • Nick

      Fact: “144 quakes in the last week of significant impact.” (I haven’t verified this, but I trust you)

      Interpretation: “More than Mother Nature at work”

      • Anon1

        He thinks the CIA have an earthquake machine. I think Trow really ought to consider putting himself out to pasture.

        • Nick

          That made me smile, but I don’t think he’s saying that. Of course I could be wrong there 🙂

        • Trowbridge H. Ford

          You never change your mind about anything, and follow their advice about your getting lost, so why should I follow your advice when more people are agreeing with my ideas about what covert states are doing?

          • Anon1

            I know. I don’t change my mind about refusing to believe that little green men control the earth from the moon either. I’m such a sheep!

    • N_

      @Trowbridge – I heard that idea somewhere else recently too. Can you summarise the proposition and premises in a few sentences, for the benefit of someone who has an open mind on this?

      • Trowbridge H. Ford

        Lasers, especially fiber ones, can produce beams much more powerful than the sun for just minute parts of a second, but they can produce them again in awhile. So put them in satellites,. in Boeing X37-B search planes or on special attack subs where they can be used to attack fissures in the earth’s surface where the tectonic plates collide or man-made structures exist like qanats, caves and underground structures, and fire away with your baems until a quake occurs. It has been done repeatedly in Iran, Turkey. China. North Korea. and off off the coasts of he Indian Ocean. Iceland and Japan,

        • N_

          @Trowbridge – Thanks for this, but I meant can you summarise why you think earthquake-causing technology is being used a lot right now. Or indeed why you think it has been used in the past in those or other places.

          That said, a second question is if lasers are used then at what wavelength band?

          The 1988 earthquake in Armenia was manmade but not by this kind of method I think. There have been more recent cases in the Far East where I have thought “that is very convenient indeed”.

          • Trowbridge H. Ford

            Quakes have been made to get rid of Turkey’s Ecevic for interfering with NATO’s effort to bomb Milosovic out of Kosovo, to get his replacement Erdogan behind the Mediterranean Dialogue to help Israel. to keep Iran on the sidelines during the Gulf Wars against Iraq’s Saddam, to keep the Muslim countries around the Indian Ocean from joining the Jhad in December 2004, to injure China so much in May 2008 that Xi’s predecessor was ousted from power to be replaced by the regime-endlng Bo And Go Xilays. to get rid of the most anti-American governmentin Japan since WW!! with the Tohoku one, and make pretexts for getting rid of the North Korean regime as a nuclear threat.

            If I knew the exact wave lengths of the most destructive lasers, I would be either dead or in jail now from dealing with a leaker. The US government tried to find such material when it searched my computers and papers in our apartment in Sweden, and it held up delivery of my furniture at the New York Port Authority in the hope of finding same when I moved back to this crap hole.

            The USSR used a different technology against Iran, China, and troublesome members like Armenia which the Yanks got by shipping Soviet contraband on the ultimately sunken Estonia.

        • Paul Barbara

          @ Trowbridge H. Ford August 23, 2018 at 22:16
          My understanding is radio waves are used, not lasers, to set up resonances where tectonic plates meet, thus causing earthquakes. HAARP from earth stations reflected off the ionosphere were originally used, but yes, there has been speculation that it is being done now from craft like the X37-B, especially as the biggest land-based HAARP station at Gakona, Alaska has been closed down for quite some time, yet the quakes proliferate.
          I put an extensive reply up last night, but I think a mischievous tooth fairy nicked it, along with another interesting comment about Tesla causing resonance mayhem!
          Then there is the ‘Owning the Weather by 2025’ USAF document, with it’s linked Stratospheric Aerosol Geoengineering.
          HAARP stations used to bounce the radio waves off reflective particles spread by aircraft.

        • James

          “Lasers, especially fibre ones”… your technical mastery of stimulated emission is almost palpable. With Boeing X37-Bs flying around colliding tectonic plates, qanats, caves and baems firing away all the while… what a fascinating world you envision.
          LSD-25 from a particularly clean batch, perhaps?
          Only the finest, thickest Alcan™ in your kitchen to be sure.
          Quality, and thanks!

          • Trowbridge H. Ford

            Just your usual crap, James.

            The Boing X-37Bs can locate what is hidden below water, icebergs and land by radar. On its first successful flight it discovered how well a US attack sub like the USS Jimmy Carter was cocking up the Tohoku quake off Japan which caused that unexpected devastatingtsunami. and saw to the end of the troublesome New Democracy government.

            My only drug-takinf is drinking alcohol on assertion. Stick to posting your crap in the threads which are about completely forgotten crap.

          • James

            To Paul Barbara:
            I’m familiar with much in that document, though not the document itself.
            It discusses, as you may have noticed, the military benefits of localised weather manipulation, mentioning a date of 1839 as an example of an early attempt at this.
            1839 is not so early; there’s plenty of evidence that pre-dates his by centuries.
            Subsequently, much research has pursued this, largely unsuccessfully. It’s a lot cheaper to wait for it to rain, then attack than to spend great effort and expense in (trying to) fomenting the rain.
            This is all rather far from Model T’s delusional ranging and swerving from laser baems to earthquakes via fibres, Boeing etc.
            Actually, the military attempts at causing thunderstorms is really rather tame and boring. No LSD, lasers, or electromagnetic radiation of any kind involved, but quite a lot of acid, silver nitrate etc. And no earthquakes either.
            Out with the Alcan fir Model T, and to hell with the leptons.

          • James

            Sounds like you could do with a drink right now.
            Its (nearly) all crap on here, had you not noticed.
            You take the Blue Riband chief, you are in the high part of the upper quartile of tinfoilhattery I’ve seen for quite a while.
            Quality, and please do keep it up. Its entertaining.

          • Trowbridge H. Ford

            Sounds like your memory is going. Looks like you have forgotten all your posts on the not forgetting the al-Hillis threads. They take the cake when it comes to crsp!

          • Paul Barbara

            @ Trowbridge H. Ford August 24, 2018 at 13:06
            I reckon it’s about time the X37-Bs started having their MH 370 moments.

          • James

            Sorry, old sport, but you’ve got me mixed up with another nutter on here. My first ever posting was three days ago, and I’ve only made a handful.
            I have no idea what or who alHillis might be. Perhaps something to do with you baems, Boeings, and bonkersness? Not a clue mate!
            At the expense of repetition, I really should make this my final post on here. Too much silly, off-topic vacuousness, and in your case downright crackpottery, and unpleasant invective. It’s a bit sad, really.

  • Philip Duval

    Remind us what publically owned social services and police did for the children of Rotherham, Rochdale, Oxford, Telford, Newcastle and every other town and city in the country where tens of thousands of the most vulnerable white children were left at the mercy of racist Muslim rape gangs for decades.

    If the eeeeeevil Tories and their privatised services had facilitated / covered up white racists raping and torturing Muslim children en mass, you’d be burning this country to the ground.

    • Anon1

      It’s ok, Philip. Rotherham, Rochdale etc were just a thoroughly understandable reaction to colonialism.

      • giyane

        Anon 1

        I’m not in favour of the English habit of owning dogs that maul babies, but I don’t keep tarring all the English with the brush of the nasty individuals like you do. I believe the technical term for that is racism.

        • glenn_nl

          I thought it was usually BNP / EDL types who liked to own ghastly, uncontrollable dogs that in turn liked to maul small children.

          Do you have such a dog by any chance, Anon1? Do you exercise its jaws by getting it to swing from a tyre suspended by a rope? (Btw, I have to admit I did agree with a number of your points earlier on mass immigration)

    • Paul Barbara

      @ Philip Duval August 23, 2018 at 20:39
      Have no fear, the police cover up British grooming and paedophile rings as well:
      Why do you think the IICSA Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse is getting no where fast?
      And the likes of Savile, at it in the BBC, in mental and other hospitals, for years, with all attempts at putting a stop to it hushed up and covered up.
      And the churches! Were and are they ‘evil Muslims’?
      And Kinkora Boys School, a cesspit of paedophilia, overseen by the British ‘Security Services’ and police, as a blackmail tool? Hardly ‘evil Muslims’.

  • Anon1

    Eight arrests after the quadruple stabbing and disembowelment in South London the other night.

    It’s the lack of youth clubs, honestly. I mean who hasn’t gone on a stabbing spree after feeling bored for a few hours?

  • N_

    It’s hilarious how so many middle class media consumers are opining that we shouldn’t mind the British government’s planning for rejecting a “deal” with EU27, because that’s only a negotiating strategy. They think those of us who do mind don’t understand anything about negotiation.

    First, they’re acting as if two giants are grappling with each other on a pantomime stage, each communicating behind the other’s back with his own half of the audience – as if nobody at the French or German embassies in London follows the British media.

    Second, they obviously believe British officials are cleverer at negotiation than foreign ones, because otherwise they might wonder why the EU27 side is NOT proclaiming to all and sundry that IT TOO is planning for “no deal”. Only the British side is saying it is. Not only that, but they must also believe that no deal would hurt EU27 more than it would hurt Britain, because otherwise why would Britain threaten it?

    These are stupid things to believe. Anybody who thinks Britgov’s discourse about “no deal” is purely a negotiating strategy is no brighter than a Sun-reading wrestling fan.

    Given that the British economy balances on the City of London, and given that EU27 will not accept “passporting”, we are effectively talking WTO even if it’s sold as a “deal”, which is unlikely.

    Personally I think some interests in Frankfurt wanted Britain to leave, although I haven’t yet reached a view on whether what led to that feeling was the City being on the offensive or the defensive. Certainly the City was extending its tentacles on the continent, but that doesn’t answer the question. A return to the status quo ante is practically impossible. The required writedown would be too huge. In 1914 the German army had to cross the border once it mobilised because if it didn’t it would have f***ed up the train timetable.

    • giyane


      Lemmings jumping off a cliff. Mrs May decided entirely on her own after the Brexit referendum that Brexit meant an end to free movement of people and free trade.rather like the soothsayers of Delphi chewing laurel leaves and poring over the entrails of a sacrificed bull.

      Brexit of course merely means a popular media dissatisfaction with being told what to do by Brussells which our participating MEPs never felt and never complained about, because as Craig so rightly pointed out at the time it was a ploy to divert popular attention away from the profiteering of the stinking 1% from their own stinking embezzlement of public funds.

      But the Delphic oracle must obviously be obeyed. She maybe has a dark connection to the Fates,, Harpies , and Satyrs. In all this pagan guesswork, of course the plummy tones of ra ra Tory ministers is the nearest one can find to a blue ceramic eye to ward off the workings of pre-Christian Satanism.

      The BBC regularly interview ordinary people who tell the cameraman they don’t trust Corbyn. But nobody dare say they don’t trust the Delphic Tory priestess Theresa May’s ability to read the intestines.

      • jake

        Mrs May’s enthusiasm for border & immigration control and for the UK not being subject to decisions of European Courts is entirely based on her own incompetence while in office as Home Secretary.

    • Shatnersrug

      This how the negotiating table goes

      HSBC : you need to cancel Brexit
      EU : we need to cancel Brexit
      uk gov : we need to cancel Brexit, but labour won’t take the blame for it

      HSBC : you need to cancel Brexit
      EU : we need to cancel Brexit
      uk gov : we need to cancel Brexit, but labour won’t take the blame for it

      HSBC : you need to cancel Brexit
      EU : we need to cancel Brexit
      uk gov : we need to cancel Brexit, but labour won’t take the blame for it

      HSBC : you need to cancel Brexit
      EU : we need to cancel Brexit
      uk gov : we need to cancel Brexit, but labour won’t take the blame for it

      HSBC : you need to cancel Brexit
      EU : we need to cancel Brexit
      uk gov : we need to cancel Brexit, but labour won’t take the blame for it

      Ad Infinitum

  • Ben

    Is there a innate need to be pushed and pulled by fear amongst our fellow humans? It would seem the masses need be afraid in order to motivate toward some goal beyond fulfilling primary needs. It’s not intuitive to simply default to negative emotions even though fear has utility for survival. I dont think people consider the alternative to survival when they are sated and inebriated.

    • Trowbridge H. Ford

      Don’t overlook the crash of that Chinook helicopter at the Mull of Kintyre in 1994 which killed off 25 intelligence and police experts who were seeking a soft landing with the IRA over the Good Friday Agreement.

    • giyane

      One might look to Idlib:

      “On August 13, 2018, British Secretary of State Jeremy Hunt assured the House of Commons that he regretted the 2013 vote in which Parliament opposed a military intervention against the “Assad regime” ( sic).

      However, according to The Times of August 21, the British government will reduce its support programs for “rebel” areas in Syria. ”

      The only reason why Foreign secretaries Hubris Johnson had to praise Al Qaida, and Jeremy Hunt has to regret UK intervention in Syria, is because the British Government still thinks there is mileage in using proxy terror for punching-above-our-weight and buttering up the cash-rich Saudis. Both of these fatuous failed British Tory policies ignore the real-politik that Trump is not a neo-con and Russia will shortly despatch Al Qaida to its makers, i.e children’s TV and the world of fantasy make-believe.

      • Brianfujisan

        Well said Giyane

        I found, then lost a page showing arms and machines Syrian army have captured

        one was a big machine wich looked like a 5/6 foot wheel at the front with teeth all round.. I’m thinking Tunnels.
        Very sophisticated tech. It must have came complete with specialized maintinence crew.

    • Brianfujisan

      Great interview Sharp ears Typical Forensic anlaysis, and Facts from Norman
      Cheers for posting.

  • J

    An interesting and important topic is immediately replaced by two thirds of a page of race baiting drivel from the usual one trick pony. Life in macrocosm.

  • Sharp Ears

    Australia. More Prime Ministers than hot dinners. The sixth, Scott Morrison, in 11 years takes office. Who he?

    And what’s this about Alex Salmon and harassment charges? Who is harassing whom?

  • Sharp Ears

    Listening to the likes of Raab, Hammond et al, you would think that it was another party, and not the Tories, who have been ‘conducting’ the negotiations with the EU which have led nowhere.

    ‘No-deal’ Brexit papers offer little comfort for financial services sector
    Long-established problems still seem a long way from being addressed, while new ones have been thrown into the spotlight.

    More from Brexit
    Tory divisions exposed by Hammond letter as Sky Data poll reveals shift against Brexit
    Conservative party reject membership of Leave.EU founder Arron Banks
    Philip Hammond risks Brexiteer row with £80bn ‘no-deal’ warning
    Medicine stockpiles and emergency airlifts in the event of ‘no-deal’ Brexit
    Govt lays bare consequences of ‘no-deal’ Brexit to British people
    Britain under ‘no-deal’: A far cry from ‘less red tape’

    As someone above said, the bankers are still in control of the affairs of this gangster state.

    Where is Theresa? Still walking?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbyAZQ45uww The lyrics are apt. 🙂

  • Sharp Ears

    Sergei Skripal’s relatives fear he is dead as almost a month of silence goes by
    Relatives of Sergei Skripal, the former Russian double agent who was allegedly attacked with a nerve agent in Salisbury last March, fear that he may be dead, his niece has told Russian news agency RIA.
    Aug 23, 2018 13:15

    Also, what about Yulia?

    • Cesca

      Cheers for bringing this up Sharp Ears, i feel seriously concerned about them too and find it worrying this isn’t covered in our MSM, so is being swept under the carpet. Think the Russians should seriously get in the face of the Tories about this, create as much stink as they can.

  • SA

    With reference to an earlier discussion between Anon1, Clark and ADKC with interjections by others, with regard to immigration and racism.
    This is a very complex subject and it is not really just a question of being anti-immigration being equated with racism. As usual with such a complex subject we need to revert to two basic underlying aspects. One is the overall ‘system’ and the second is the narrative created by the system. I am somewhat surprised at Clark therefore simplifying the discussion because really that is what the system wants, a simplified discussion that creates division.
    The underlying system is that there is an advantaged class and the rest, although this is not rigid because there is fluidity and relativity of those who are advantaged. For example everyone in UK is far more advantaged than a Somali nomad, living under fear of attack by either Daesh or the US.. The advantaged class is determined economically. Occasionally this coincides with race, sex, religion, ethnicity, citizenship of a country and so on, but is fluid. So at any time the system thrives by this fluidity and by creating divisions.
    There are good and bad aspects of immigration. Immigration has been used by globalists and colonialists for thier purposes and continues to be used also as a tool both to undermine the working class in affluent countries and simultaneously to create a bogeyman that can be used to explain all the ills of society. Just to give one example of immigration that is useful to us in the UK but destructive to others: our NHS would not survive for one day without immigrants. It is inbuilt into the system that we do not train enough doctors and nurses for our own needs but have to rely heavily on importing skilled and trained workers, often from poor countries, who cannot afford this drain. We do it openly, we deliberately have quotas on training and nobody complains about it. It is also very convenient because the medical system depends on a pyramidal structure whereby not all entrants will achieve consultant status, and you need to have a surplus of floating juniors who will never progress beyond a certain stage. This function is often fulfilled by imported staff but also to a certain extent by women who may need to take time off to have a family, although this type of exploitation is becoming less of a problem.
    So it should not really be a progressive or left versus right issue to discuss immigration. It has become weaponized to distract from the underlying manipulations. I am sorry I do not have the time, nor the intellectual power to expand fully on this but I hope that I have made my point.

    • Cesca

      Cogent, courteous post SA, your intellectual power looks seriously powerful to me, disagree Clark simplifies the issue tho. Think they might be a younger commentator too who gets a li’l too passionate at times, as i do. Plenty of well reasoned comments from Clark in that discussion tho, inclu: https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/08/a-gangster-state/comment-page-5/#comment-771243 and https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/08/a-gangster-state/comment-page-5/#comment-771300

      Seriously agree with you that globalists and colonialists have used immigration as a weapon SA, good points about the NHS too and love this comment from you in an earlier part of the thread: https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/08/a-gangster-state/comment-page-5/#comment-771196 Think i agree with all of it,or near as dammit. I’m one of those people who thinks immigration is a positive ususally, espec in the UK which has an ageing demographic. Going to post what i originally said in 3 posts in the Clark/Anon discussion below:

      *Great reply Clark, then factor in stuff like the UK is an ageing demographic with a massive Baby Boomers pension and care crisis in the offing, in need of an influx of young migrants to avert disaster.
      It fascinates me that areas where immigration is counted a prob have a low rate of immigrants, high immigrant areas don’t seem to find it an issue.
      Oh yeah, don’t look to us Millennials to lie back and think of the UK, to help sort out our ageing demographic. This article covers many of the reasons we’re not in a rush to have children: https://www.cometfi.com/blog/12-reasons-millennials-are-having-fewer-babies
      I’m in the *Women have more options now* category and have no desire to have children at all. Course that could change, my parents aren’t holding their breath tho =)
      Think it was in ’16 the number of women having their first baby in their 30’s, outnumbered those having their first baby in their 20’s, for the first time. Our ageing demographic prob will get much worse.*

      • SA

        Thank you for your kind words and apologies to Clark whom I agree with most of the time. He also writes very well and reasoned writing but does very occasionally get very angry but I agree with your comments about his comments.

      • Clark

        Cesca, thanks for the support. I’m 55. I too have noticed a point you make:

        “It fascinates me that areas where immigration is counted a prob have a low rate of immigrants, high immigrant areas don’t seem to find it an issue”

        SA, I just get pissed off with Anon1 and get hasty. I hate that attitude that treats people as a mass, “Look at ’em all, just count ’em!” and smears entire classes with selected bad behaviour of a few; “they cause all the crime” is as old as prejudice itself.

        • Cesca

          Keep your fire Mister, know it’s not just part of being young, passion with reason/logic is a powerful combi. You have fire in spades!

    • ADKC


      I do, by and large, agree with the points you have made. The only thing I would add (because I think it is the most important issue and one over which there should be no compromise) is that the west (mainly US, UK and France) needs to stop causing wars and destabilizing other countries .

      • Clark

        “…the west (mainly US, UK and France) needs to stop causing wars and destabilizing other countries”

        I strongly agree, and that one of the reasons I’m supporting Jeremy Corbyn.

      • SA

        Agree fully. But they use this to bolster the economy by selling weapons and militarisation.

      • Cesca

        Ditto me, in my book the US/UK/French Govts are the worlds scariest terrorists, there are no depths to which they won’t sink.

  • Republicofscotland

    Jeremy Corbyn comes under fire again, I wonder how much longer he and Labour can sustain this onslaught for.


    Meanwhile Boris Johnson’s nasty remarks on face veils has led to one woman in Salisbury, of all places, being told to f*ck-off, because one of her visiting relatives had on a face veil.

    Johnson should not be allowed to hold any government office ever again.


    • glenn_nl

      RoS: “[…] I wonder how much longer he and Labour can sustain this onslaught[…]”

      I don’t know – how long are people like you going to get whipped up with a complete non-issue?

      First, Corbyn was an IRA sympathiser. Nobody believed that, so then he was supposed to be a Russian spy in the 1980s. That didn’t get any traction either. Everything has been thrown at Corbyn, so now they’ve settled on pretending that he’s an anti-semite. It’s a complete lie, of course, but when has that ever stopped the slime machine on the right?

      But I have to ask, why do you keep this up? Why do you keep promoting this slur on Corbyn and doing the Tory’s dirty work for them?

        • Shatnersrug


          The sad fact of the SNP and the Greens for that matter is that very few if any Tories would vote for them, so they’re left attacking labour’s base and in effect destroying any chance of a progressive government. It must be clear now that a second indie ref is stalled by the establishment until further notice. The SNP now comfortable in their parliamentary expenses and ego wanking. One has to ask yourself? What kind of politicians would rather the status quo than to feed and house the populous – never has a choice been so stark. I have simpathy with Indy ref, support of it is what brought me to this site.

          As Keir Hardy himself said “Scotland must have a full government of its own” but the SNP is not fit for purpose, and now they don’t even seem to be memntioning a second ref. It’s a joke, I’ve spoken with JC about this before he was leader. He echoed Hardy’s words BUT we must always be working towards positive international relationships with all countries. World socialism stands against nationalism, but it embraces a pride in your home, but you can have more than one home and you can be proud of both.

          • Republicofscotland

            “The sad fact of the SNP and the Greens for that matter is that very few if any Tories would vote for them,”


            That’s correct Shatnersrug, infact I’d go as far as to say not one Tory in Scotland would vote for the SNP.

            They don’t need to as the Tories and Labour in Scotland vote for each other, effectively they’re joined at the hip so to speak.

      • Republicofscotland


        I’m sorry to see you feel a bit miffed at any article that decries Corbyn. But I’m afraid that Corbyn like Trump and Johnson, is a topical subject, they’re in the news.

        I don’t read comment from you of semi-anguish, when I post about Trump or Johnson.

        • Shatnersrug

          Tsk tsk tsk. Dropping Corbyn in with Trump and Bozzare… extremely transparent guilt by association style comment one might see from the Blairite PR company Portland Comms – that precise “technique” was even in their round robin a few months back.

          Are you absolute sure you’re not John McTernan, RoS? ???

          Actually I take that back. Even for comedy sakes I wouldn’t really force that comparison on you, as Steve Jones said of Bill Grundy “he’s ‘orrible.”

        • SA

          I think the point made by Glenn is that you, and other pro Scottish independence writers on this blog seem to attack Corbyn much more than other politicians because you are viewing it from the POV of independence. As Scotland is not yet independent, and if and until such a time this independence is achieved, Corbyn is your best bet to make life better for all of us. We all wish you abandon this schadenfreude with regards to the attacks on Corbyn.

    • Cesca

      JC is a dude on a mission ROS, he gets a bit frayed at times but has massive willpower, sure he’ll withstand this. Will keep an eye on this story to see how it plays out, snowflakes like the Jewish extremists loathe having the truth told about them.

      • Cesca

        Ooh, don’t mean all Jewish ppl are extremists. just there are extremist elements in the community. I prefer using the term extremists rather than Zionists, Zion is a beautiful word to many Jewish ppl

        • glenn_nl

          It’s perfectly OK to call extremists who happen to be Jewish, Jewish extremists. They are not a protected species, but some do distinguish themselves by pretending any critic of Israeli foreign policy is – in fact – simply attacking them as a race.

          America did the same for many years – any critic of their foreign policy was “anti-American”.

          There’s a good article about this latest tactic against Corbyn by the Establishment – and helped no end by their useful idiots – here:


          It’s long been a tactic of the far-right to take the most admirable quality of a opponent, and persistently tell lies to make it appear as if they actually were the opposite of that trait.

    • Vivian O'Blivion

      The more time passes and the more you pose the question; How much longer can Corbyn last?, the more ridiculous your position becomes. Corbyn is clearly lasting. By taking a principled stance and refusing to shut down debate, he is gradually exposing mendacious nature of the charges against him.
      You repeatedly advice Corbyn to compromise and admit to false charges. Corbyn’s detractors know no compromise, they are programmed to play by AIPAC rules.
      The moment you shake hands with the devil you have lost.
      Their latest wheeze is to make displaying the Palestinian flag in their exceptionalist state, punishable by one year in prison.


      If Ms Berger feels unwelcome in the Labour Party, she has a simple option to resolve her discomfort.

      • Republicofscotland

        “Corbyn is clearly lasting. By taking a principled stance and refusing to shut down debate,”


        That sounds very noble of him, or is it your opinion of Mr Corbyn? I wonder why he failed to answer a simple Brexit question six times, when he clearly said minutes earlier that honesty was the way forward.

        Or could it be that honesty, as with the Tories, can be a inconvenience at times?


        • Xavi

          Since 70% of Labour constituencies voted Leave, Corbyn’s electoral relevance rests on maintaining a careful ambiguity on Brexit. If he came out and said what you want him to say he would have as much chance of forming the next government in westminster as the Lib dems or the snp.

          • Vivian O'Blivion

            “If he came out and said what you want him to say” it would have no effect ’cause Jeremy just doesn’t do well at mass persuasion of groups that aren’t already on side. A lifetime of retreating to the comfort of small factions of fellow minded activists and presumably a subconscious grasp that proactive conversion of the masses isn’t really his forte.

          • Xavi

            “Jeremy just doesn’t do well at mass persuasion of groups that aren’t already on side . . .”

            . . . which is why at the last election he increased Labour’s share of the vote by more than any leader since 1945. (After being dismissed by neoliberal centrists as someone who appealed only to a tiny unrepresentative faction of like-minded activists.)

          • Vivian O'Blivion

            A surfer doesn’t create the wave. I will not give credence to the canard that Corbyn didn’t campaign in the run up to the 2016 referendum, I believe that the records show that he was very active in speaking at Labour events. The problem is that public perception has it that he was posted missing. On “fringe” subjects he is passionate about with self selecting audiences he can put up a persuasive performance. He doesn’t appear to believe strongly enough that membership of the EU is on balance a positive thing for GB & NI, which is fair enough. An essential element of the Brexit, perfect storm was Corbyn’s eezy-oozy commitment to the EU (reference his appearance on The Last Leg). Contrast that with the maniacal, fanaticism of J R-M and co..

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