Nationalisation Without Compensation 1600

When slavery was abolished in the British Empire, taxpayers paid huge sums in compensation to slave owners for the loss of their “property”. No compensation was ever paid to the slaves for the loss of their freedom.

The problem with that approach is, of course, that the state did not take into account that the “property” of which it was relieving the landowners was acquired as part of an inhuman and immoral situation.

I was considering the same question in relation to the constitutional moves of South Africa to redistribute land without compensation. It seems to me this is plainly morally justified. The only question marks I can see are of practicality, in terms of making sure those taking over the land are trained to keep it properly in production, and that redistribution is not corrupt. Those are not insuperable problems, and I support the South African government in its endeavours.

But I wish to apply the same principle, of the state acting to right historic injustice on behalf of the people, much more widely and in the UK.

I apply precisely the same argument to the great landed estates, particularly but not only in Scotland. I believe the fundamental answer to land reform is confiscation by the state of large estates, and that social justice can never be redressed by the taxpayer simply handing over money to the ultra-wealthy. We have already been doing far too much of that through the bankers’ bailouts.

I have no moral qualms at all about simply taking back the land, whether it be from the Dukes of Sutherland, Buccleuch and Atholl, from a Dutch businessman or from a sheikh. In England the Grosvenor estate, the lands of the Duchy of Cornwall, and similar holdings could be confiscated. I do not see this as harm to the “owners”. Let them work for a living, or try their luck with the benefits claim system. Residential properties in large estates might become council homes, while tenants of commercial properties might pay rents to the council rather than to the Duke of Westminster, and the council use a large portion of that money for homebuilding.

Agricultural land from vast estates might perhaps best be given to the tenant farmers who have rented it. In the Highland glens, there are vast tracts which were once cattle rearing and arable. We have been lied to for generations that these are only fit for moorland for grouse and deer hunting – despite the fact that they are studded with the croft foundations of the cleared populations they once supported, who reared cattle and grew crops. These unfarmed lands should be given free to communities to develop; with assistance for the expensive task of bringing them back into production. That assistance would be a better use of state money than paying “compensation” to the ultra-wealthy.

But it is not only land. I favour nationalisation without compensation of all PFI projects, and of all railways and utilities. The owners have milked the public and the taxpayer far too long. Any business investment carries risk, including political risk. If you misjudge the political risk, your business fails. These businesses have made a misjudgement of political risk in the view they could profiteer, that it is possible to rip off the people forever without blowback. That is a business miscalculation, and such businesses deserve to fail.

The Labour Party’s renationalisation proposals have been carefully calculated within the existing framework of “legitimate” property rights. Therefore John McDonnell has framed rail nationalisation in terms of the expiration of franchises, and talked of PFI projects in terms of buyouts. I reject this approach in favour of the more radical approach of confiscation.

Yes, I realise that some percentage of the investments removed will belong to pension funds and insurance companies and even foreign states, and to small investors. Still more will belong to hedge funds and plutocrats, and the stake of ordinary people in wealth through pension funds had been – deliberately – tumbling for two decades. The less wealthy individuals with a stake in pension funds will lose a little, but gain from the wider public good, and for them there might be a compensation mechanism.

I also realise the markets will not like confiscation, and there will be an increase in bond yields; but this will pass. There is no measure to redress social injustice the markets will like. The City of London is our enemy and will naturally attempt to resist or punish any attack on its continued ability to be the conduit for the hoovering dry of the national wealth.

The fact is, that the extreme injustice and inequalities of society have now become so very glaring that there is no way to make any impression on wealth disparity without changes that may be rightly considered revolutionary. Either we are content to live in a society where the wealthiest one per cent will within two decades own ninety per cent of all wealth in the UK and the rest of us be helots, or we make changes to the fabric of the economy and government which are truly radical.

The economic system has tilted beyond correction by tinkering.

What is immorally owned ought not to be compensated on expropriation by the community.

As with the owners of slaves, the owners of “property” would be likely to attempt to defend their riches through the courts. This is where the doctrine of the sovereignty of parliament might for once be put to good rather than evil use, in passing law making such state confiscation unequivocally legal. Both the UK and Scotland appear set for at least a period outside the EU; I cannot think of a better use for any window of legal autonomy.

I am fully aware that I am proposing very radical measures very unlikely to be adopted by the current political Establishment. But the most telling fact of recent western society, itself a natural and predictable result of that galloping wealth inequality, is that the political Establishment has its coat on a very shoogly peg.

1,600 thoughts on “Nationalisation Without Compensation

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  • Stonky

    Don’t know how this escaped the sharp eyes of Sharp Ears:

    “The boss of a taxpayer-supported business that supplies cars to people with disabilities has resigned after it emerged he is in line for a £2.2m bonus… in the first seven years of a bonus scheme, five executive directors received £15.3m in total… The Work and Pensions and Treasury Committees said potential rival companies cannot compete with Motability because it receives substantial tax breaks from the government that no other firm is entitled to, and does not face any competitive pressure when tendering for the contract to run the scheme…”

    A shameless taxpayer-funded lootfest run by greed-maddened scumbuckets. Modern Britain in a nutshell.

    • Sharp Ears

      Ha Stonky. I was discussing it with friends yesterday who have a middle aged disabled daughter. She will have nothing to do with them, buys her own car and has it adapted. The VAT is then reclaimed.

      What we found strange, as seen in many other cases of these rip offs, is that they are allowed to run without interference and then suddenly the National Audit Office reveals all. Apparently Motability built up a cash reserve of £2billion. That is government money and should have been returned to the Treasury.

    • Tony_0pmoc

      flatulence’ ,

      The few left at the MSM, use as their inspiration, journalistic and editing skills, the template developed and promoted by The Daily Mash, but they are not yet as funny or accurate in their reporting.


  • Molloy

    Great by Deb at 0404hrs. . . . .

    “The US has imposed sanctions on Iran and acts as if this constitutes international law, then uses a third party country to detain nationals of another country. This is US exceptionalism gone mad.”

    Hmmm. .. . as far as am aware, critical analysis would say that this is the usual US$ DS gangster behaviour, worse than any mafia more obscene than any violent act to win back stolen land stolen resources.

    Please call out the crime against humanity (deaths of children especially) for what it is. “exceptionalism” my feckinR’s. . . .

    Iran, my sisters and brothers. ¡No pasarán!


    • Radar O’Reilly

      more background on Chinese telecom backdoors, Chinese big-brother – the infrastructure that led to the development of the Chinese social justice ranking for internet activists etc (now being called “Digital Dictatorship“)

      Surely Huawei will rank bigly in digital equipment interference of citizens, and sales of oppressive (sorry ‘dual-use’) equipments?

      Ah, from public analysis of the website of the Chinese Ministry of Public Security it has become evident that US Cisco sold the ‘Cisco IDS-4125’ DPI intrusion detection system to China; the ‘ASA 5505’ used in the Chinese Internet backbone and the ‘Policenet’ – described as key to China’s Golden Shield censorship and surveillance systems. What, Cisco not Huawei?

      Further quoting from a 2008 (old, real) article “It is futile to argue whether western corporations are directly responsible for the uses to which China puts their technologies. Following basic free-trade principles, products are most likely sold “as is” to (rather than customised for) the Chinese government or third-party resellers. However, just as in the arms trade, these practices have led to the creation of a hostile digital environment, inhabited by Da Ge (pinyin for Big Brother)” What, free-market not Huawei?

      A historic court case in the US against Cisco did however allege that Cisco deliberately modified and customised their systems specifically for Chinese activist surveillance, highlighting the possible ease of tracking for religious groups or other keyword searches using DPI (deep packet inspection) systems. So probably Cisco was doing stuff deliberately. . .

      Further away from ‘evil’ Huawei, is a report that Boeing-Narus (Isra€li/US) partnered with Shanghai Telecom to block Skype calls inside China. (China’s autonomous region of Hong Kong was of course instrumental in the whole early FBI/NSA/GCHQ ILETS IUR proceedings and helped to establish the international standards for lawful and eventual mass interception.)

      Finally, here’s a serious Iran-Sino Thomson-Reuters report, of the sort that we no longer see – just Integrity initiative nudges, (2.2MB instant pdf download, virustotal checked 0/60)

      Huawei is mentioned, but there are about twenty times more references to ZTE in Iran, surely 5-eyes must try harder to limit anyone other than the wonderful Ericsson networks to install in their eminent domains, after all, what could possibly go wrong with Ericsson systems?

      other than a day without smart-buses, O2 4G, etc etc 32 million ddos SSL

      Strange, 4 attempts to post this and it has not yet appeared, even tho’ it was given “comment-page-10/#comment-808127” attributes – maybe Cisco/Narus/Symantec/Ericsson network infrastructure is dodgier that I expected!

      • MaryPau!

        why should anyone be surprised? USA is scarcely the only country to sell weapons, armaments or electronic surveillance tools to hostile countries or dictatorships. Is there anyone who doesn’t sell to Saudia for example?,

    • Andyoldlabour

      @Molloy, as usual you have hit the nail on the head. Iran and any other country which dares to stand up to the “exceptional” USA (exceptionally stupid and evil) will forever face repercussions in the form of – invasion, bombing, sanctions, regime change.
      The real problem though, is that very often other countries hold on to the tail of the US, like frightened puppies, thus legitimising its actions.
      The sanctions are hitting people in Iran, I know because half my family on my wife’s side still live there, and how do they view the US?
      Well as the sanctions hit harder, they hate the US (and the UK) more, because they do not see how the sanctions are justified (Neither do I and many others), whilst countries such as the US, UK, Saudi Arabia and Israel get away with war crimes around the World.

  • Molloy


    Reposted response to ‘Mary’ at 0853hrs. . . . too far below ‘Mary’s’ original innuendo. . . .

    The suggestion of spyware whilst having no evidence, to this tribunal, is simply racist propaganda.

    Reply ↓
    December 9, 2018 at 12:17

    Really, Mary. Oh purrleeze!

    Please, once again, share with us all any evidence of spyware at all which may be in your possession at Cheltenham. Please do share.

    Too often too many seemingly innocuous little innuendos are not going to look good on your CV, and may harm your promotion/status prospects. That means less opportunity to work for warmongers.

    Weather now lovely in Westbury-on-Severn is it not?!

    ¡No pasarán!


    • MaryPau!

      Not sure what you are talking about. EU has recommended not using Huawei kit in electronic networks and two days ago BT/EE announced it would not be using it in 5g networks.

      • Molloy


        Mary — gaslighting?

        I’m talking about evidence.

        EU (sadly) is Not Evidence.

        Nice try!


  • Molloy


    Welsh Noir — your question.

    How the greedy corporate elite protect their stolen property?

    re “Anyone else see the footage of armoured cars in the Paris riot bearing EU flags?”

    . . . . . please provide the link/video and if deemed fitting a senior (independent) competent judge must look into the alleged use of violence by EU.

    Evidence please.


  • giyane

    Selling spyware to Muslims. In Islam if somebody looks through your keyhole you are entitled to stick a knife in their eye because the Qur’an specifically and repeatedly forbids spying. There is no question of an oppressive regime being entitled to spy because a government is not entitled to oppress.

    The IT savvy tell me that the internet is like an open warehouse door , not a keyhole, and you are literally exposing yourself if you don’t take precautions. But if you started taking precautions that would only increase their desire to spy on you and increase their mental sickness.

    Now the jolly old security services are worried about being spied on themselves by Chinese technology. So it’s highly illegal and dangerous when they are the victims of illegal spying and by contrast we are extremely stupid if we allow ourselves to be spied on. Make up your minds please.

    Personally what I do is this. If I think someone is spying on me I do or say something so outrageous that the human being doing the spying forgets that they are supposed to be incognito and comment. Not much difference from shooting pheasant on a Sunday afternoon. I have flushed out many spyers using this system.

    You can’t beat a good brace of fattened spyers so long as you’re on your guard against the incriminating bird-shot. On one occasion the spy threatened to kill me, on another, they called the police and recently they forgot to keep it zipped on the camera they put in my house.

    Government by Shanghai delegated to a man of common sense like Jeremy Corbyn would be vastly preferable to the status quo that have failed in two years to do anything but bluster and splutter trying to conceal their evil intent. Are these government people not sent to University to learn about framing informed opinion about government. Or did they recruit the Brexiteers from playgroup. Let’s pin up their childish efforts on Brexit with encouragement and call it Tory early years development.

    • Molloy


      Giyane — great stuff.

      However, perhaps in error? you seem to overlook:

      a/ Racism and lack of evidence of IT spying, and

      b/ The bizarre and ludicrous idea that anybody from China might be interested in a self-important, corrupt and miniscule and entirely unlawful UK regime.

      The only possible interest for another (more up together State) naturally, would be to guard against UKU$S DS aggression theft of property and greed.
      Going on previous and entirely obnoxious warmongering form (of corrupt global elite). . .from a human perspective, any so-called spying for purpose of avoiding aggression is entirely justified, and in fact wholly moral and responsible.

      Eerily, the elephant in the room on this forum that GC$HQ DS psyops contributors are reluctant to talk about.
      And the warmongers have plenty of crimes to hide.

      As the good book says, charity begins at home; first put our own house in order.

      So. . . . . .as earlier, DS are involved therefore ‘spying’ accusations directed at other people oozing from the rear of DS? . . . . . . ha ha, my feckinR’s.

      ¡No pasarán! and go well, my friend.


      • nevermind

        Molloy has introduced her/himself, then supported many comments, albeit the defused and literary efforts to appear left.

        Now we are in a new phase of ‘it’ chewing away at comments that are obvious, covered in the past, or well argued according to preceding facts, as if
        It was its civic duty to oblige and disrupt.

        If you have no BBC evidence to peer at, does not mean you have to clutch at disruptive straws to show off.

        • Molloy


          Never — Say Never. Gaslightingly hubristic.

          GC$HQ got the aircon on too low have they?!

          What’s wrong with you?!

  • Tatyana

    Well, well, well, nice Sunday evening after nice Sanday day!

    I’m happy and jumping with joy, because today I was testing our new car. Alone. Without my husband sitting by and providing his “precious” comments on my driving skills 🙂

    You can imagine my feelings, if you ever had russian car like “moscwich” or “zhiguli” and sometimes had to connect the fan wires directly for forced cooling because radiator is boiling.

    If you had never had a russian car you can get idea from this song
    * russian humor show KVN, the artist sings: “Roads in the country, as well as cars in the country, as well as salaries, football, housing and communal services, not to say about cinema — he makes a pause and we hear Freddy Mercury singing words ‘God knows’, which in russian sounds like ‘говно’ (sh:t). *

    Or, for example, here is another humor story:
    Russian car-building company Autovaz and Japanese corporation Nissan decided to exchange their experience.

    Russian engineer puts a question: ‘What is your procedure to check the car interior for leaks?”
    Nissan engineer answers: “We put a cat into the car in the evening and leave it there for the night. In the morning we come and observe. If the cat is alive, so obviously air came into, thus the car interior has leaks. If the cat is dead, so the car interior is properly sealed. And what about you?”
    Russians: “Well, our procedure is nearly the same, we put a cat into the car in the evening… In the morning we come and check. If the cat is still in the car, so the interior is sealed. But if the cat has run away, so there are leaks”.
    Happy Sunday evening to everyone!

    • flatulence'

      Same to you.

      In the UK the procedures are slightly different. They’re simply told there is no leak, has been no leak and there never will be a leak, and this is based on irrefutable evidence which cannot be shared and is from an anonymous source.

        • Molloy


          Taty — curious that you appear (analysis) to be taking the piss out of Russian people.

          . . . . .i.e. dodgy cars; not very bright people; cruelty to animals?

          Hmmm. . . .

          Any reason? Dislike of Russians?
          Please tell all of us (most humans with half a brain realise that Russians are also humans, pretty heroic humans too).

          Perhaps not wise to conflate Russian people with the ‘difficult’ (albeit fairer than UKU$S war machine) Russian State entity. This seems to be how your piece reads, anyway.
          Tell me that I am wrong.

          ¡No pasarán!


          • Tatyana

            Molloy, are you serious asking that? I’m russian 🙂 We are mocking everything, including laughing at ourselves.
            Our humor is often ‘black humor’ but it only involves imaginary situations, fiction.

            Joking in Russia is never intended to offend anyone, just to have fun.
            I know it is not the same in other countries, people are cotiously choosing words and situations for jokes.
            We don’t. We’ve got tons of jokes about politics, LGBT, religion, nations, stupid and smart people…

            I assure you, russian cars, as well as russian roads, and russian football players are common topics.

          • Blunderbuss

            Hello Tatyana.

            Is this a real Russian joke or is it an English forgery?

            How high is the corn, comrade?
            As high as God’s knees, comrade.
            But there is no God.
            There is no corn either.

      • Spencer Eagle

        You are absolutely right, a friend who used to work at Nissan’s Sunderland plant, you know the one – ‘the most productive car plant in Europe’, revealed that when cars failed the water test, workers were told to dry the seats with paper towels. The cars left the factory and the leaks then became the dealers problem.

    • Spencer Eagle

      At the height of the Soviet space race in the 1960’s the engineers were having serious problems maintaining the cabin pressure of a new capsule in development. The program’s chief engineer reported his concerns to the director, insisting, such was the risk to life, that the program be halted. The directors solution was to promote the chief engineer to cosmonaut and the launch deadline was met. True story.

      • flatulence'

        All this talk of engineering reminds me of a story a tutor told me (don’t know if it’s true, or funny for that matter, I find it funny but I’m a geek). USA spent much time and money developing some micro drill bit and were so pleased with themselves they sent one to Russia to rub it in at how advanced they were. Russia just sent it back with a hole drilled through it.

      • Tatyana

        I’ve got funny story, it is not true, so no one reason to get offended, please! Just for fun.

        One of the early russian spaceships goes to space. It carries two dogs Belka and Strelka, and a man from far undeveloped part of Russia. Radio communication with the flight control center:
        – Belka
        – *barks* Wof!
        – Belka, push the blue button
        – Wof wof!
        – Strelka
        – Wof!
        – Strelka, push the green button
        – Wof wof!
        – Ivan
        – Wof!
        – Stop barking, you idiot! Feed the dogs and don’t you touch anything!

    • Kerch'eee Kerch'ee Coup

      Gotta love Radio Yerevan reports(Sorry problem with cloud flare so can’t reference). Humour in adversity. . cClosest British equivalent was “Wot no…”

      • Tatyana

        I know Radio Erevan! It was popular in USSR.

        Radio Yerevan reports: a group of Chinese aggressors suddenly attacked a Soviet tractor which was peacefully plowing a field at the border. The tractor responded with a massive missile launching, after that it took off and went deep into the country. The Ministry of Agriculture has warned that if the provocation is repeated, then we will see vertical takeoff and landing mowers on our fields.

  • Sharp Ears

    I didn’t see Marr this morning. I know that Swarbrick was reviewing the papers along with Miller and Stuart. He is now on LBC and was previously at No 10 i/c of May’s broadcasting.

    He would have been on this list which I came across. Sorry it’s from G Fawkes. An amazingly large crowd of ‘SPADS, wonks and spinners’, 39 or so for May alone, all being paid by the taxpayer of course.

  • N_

    Tommy Robinson and UKIP marched in London today, some of them wearing military style berets. Union Jacks were aplenty. There were also bagpipes, St George’s flags, a Trump banner, UKIP flags carrying the pound sign, and (but why?) a red flag and a black flag. Tommy Robinson seems to have difficulty standing still. Is it cocaine, pubic lice, or a mental illness? “Our streets”, the ubermensch shouted.

    UKIP leader Gerard Batten said that “If Parliament does not take Britain out of the European Union it will be the biggest constitutional crisis since the English Civil War. In 1642 the king put himself in opposition to Parliament. Parliament won and the king lost his head. If Parliament betrays Brexit they will be putting themselves in opposition of the people and if they win you will lose your liberty.”

    The last line sounds very burgermunchery and probably comes from a combination of UKIP’s notorious USaphilia with wanting to impress real live Uncle Sammers from the embassy.

    Apparently the fash didn’t make it to 10,000, whereas the anti-fash made 15,000. There’s no sign yet of any photo-opportunities.having been successfully created by Robinson and Batten’s deplorable mob. The Sun may well love this tomorrow. Not so sure about the Heil.

    • Republicofscotland

      “The Sun may well love this tomorrow. Not so sure about the Heil.”

      Try the Daily Express or the Daily Mail, both will be salivating like Pavlov’s dog at the thought of printing the pictures.

    • Rowan Berkeley

      @N_ let me reconstrue your question as “and a red & black flag (but why?)”

      It sounds like a tribute to Right Sector in Ukraine. Their red & black flag (simple diagonal division) is the same as the anarcho-communist red & black flag. Confusing but true.

      • N_

        Thanks for this, @Rowan. I think you are right, although it was a red flag AND a black flag, not a red-and-black flag. Right Sector and the national bolsheviks do indeed like those colours. There are also the “national anarchists”. The Guardian reports that the lambda symbol of Generation Identity was in evidence today too.

    • Dave

      I would expect state agitators to be present to ensure some violent footage to be used in the 2nd referendum campaign to discredit the Leave campaign. Farage is right, going down the populist anti-Muslim blind alley is playing into the state’s hand.

        • Dave

          I haven’t heard him use those exact words, but he has said it would undermine the effectiveness of UKIP by turning it into the BNP, which amounts to the same thing. For some on the ‘left’ there is no difference, but in practice UKIP prospered as the respectable moderate ‘anti-racist’ middle-class alternative. There is always a dilemma facing political parties between welcoming new members and being taken over to promote a different message from the founders.

          • flatulence'

            Actually I will, because he made a good point the other day which shocked me. Not the point itself, just that he made one.

            He pointed out that while the leave vote won, the remain campaign never stopped and has been relentless since the vote. Maybe a 2nd ref was always the plan. Hope indyref2 is taking notes.

          • N_

            OK, but it isn’t the same thing, because “playing into the state’s hands” would suggest he was pointing to the secret state and presumably MI5 in particular as conducting manipulation operations or at least being capable of doing so. We all know they do, but I didn’t think Farage had ever referenced these matters, and if he does it will mark a change. Do you think he will go for setting up a new party?

            Interesting fact: shortly before the referendum – about two days before – he pulled out of the BBC’s Question Time at very short notice. The reason given was that he hadn’t seen his son for two years and he had a chance to go to dinner with him and he put this first before politics. That could be true. He is a human being after all. But it could also be that powerful interests decided to yank his reins.

            This is a piece on Farage’s role in the pocketing of millions on the markets that night.

          • Dave

            For the purposes of a referendum there’s no need to set up a new party, as opposed to a cross-party campaign group to campaign for Leave and Farage’s strength is as a freedom advocate rather than party leader.

            I don’t think gambling at the bookies on the outcome of elections is suspicious it just means you may as well make some money in an area of your political expertise, particularly as anti-establishment politicians will struggle for employment outside politics.

            Pulling out of QT could be good tactics if you are going to face a contrived lynch mob. I always thought Nick Griffin made a mistake appearing on QT for that reason. He should have milked the per-publicity and then not take part due to a lack of democratic guarantees!

  • Republicofscotland

    So the State broadcaster allowed Boris Johnson to flap his gums on the Marr show this morning over Brexit.

    Johnson and Co have been prevaricating on Brexit since 2016, beginning with the big red NHS bus. Johnson was and still is very vocal on Brexit, yet when leave won Johnson fled the scene like a frightened mouse, and left the rest of his totally inept party to deal with it. Needless to say it has been all downhill from thereon in with regards to Brexit.

    Yet the BBC, still allows the failed Foreign secretary airtime to push his “If only the EU would do as we want” routine, and that “Im sure Britain will be great again once we’re out” routine.

    Boris Johnson in my opinion has no credibility, and like the majority of the Tory government, sees Brexit as a opportunity to increase his wealth and influence in Britain, whilst the rest of us can take hike for all they care.

    • Deb O'Nair

      The fact that the odious and disgusting Johnson is seen as an ineffective blow-hard in his own party, and a joke by a huge majority of the public, has to make on wonder why he is given a platform by the state broadcaster. Is it because of the backing he receives from billionaires like Trump, Murdoch and the Barclay twins to take over from Theresa May despite his time as FM showing him to be a complete inept for high office?

      It was only a few days ago he had to make a grovelling apology for failing to declare earnings. A number of weeks ago it came out that he was giving his police protection the slip whilst FM, to get up to god know what. His wife recently left him because of his continued unfaithfulness and he’s sired, with two different women whilst married, at least two off-spring which were aborted.

  • Trowbridge H. Ford

    Still no impeachment move against Trump, though he committed massive fraud on the American voters by saying he was going to lock candidate Hillary up because she was a terrible druggie pedophile, and he paid off two other women to keep covered up his affairs with them.

    Would the Republicans even agree to impeach him if he shot dead some one at a large public event?

    Think not. Some rule of law!

  • Tony_0pmoc

    [email protected] 09:09

    Very interesting, I do not have a problem with Chinese technology, especially with regards to their hardware, which is often leading edge and first to market. Sometimes they just put it out, and sell it for next to nothing. 10 years ago, they may not have had the software skills, but their hardware was so good, that enthusiastic American and British software designers, used to get the software working, for free, in their spare time, in their bedroom, cos they were so frustrated with their paid day time job, working for some horrendous enormous corporate bureaucracy. Some of our kid’s friends have moved to live in China, and occasionally come back for a visit at Christmas..

    The Americans can’t do it any more. They can huff and puff, but they’ve lost it. They no longer have the skills, drive and enthusiasm. Even much of their military, is dependent on Chinese and Russian technology.

    You can’t get much more crazy than showing all the signs of wanting to go to war with them, when you are dependent on their technology.

    Now who turned O2 off? Was that just a one day demo?


    • Molloy


      Tony — Really? Are you absolutely sure?!

      “Even much of their military, is dependent on Chinese and Russian technology.”



  • Republicofscotland

    So the US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo in his Brussels speech laid out how a future US, as world leading, would like to see the shape of things to come.

    Pointing out that, the likes of the IMF and World bank, and the likes of Russia and China weren’t really forces for good, but America is.

    In short it would appear that the US wants other nations to sign up to their way of thinking, and those nations and institutions that don’t meet their criteria better watch out.

    Its a subliminal mission statement on how the US will some day run the world the way it wants to.

  • SA

    I am rather surprised at the presence of climate change doubters and outright deniers posting on this website. But then I guess it is freedom of speech!

    • Republicofscotland

      Ah, I see where you’re going with that SA firstly my previous comment left it open for discussion for those who don’t believe in climate change. I however do believe that climate change is happening, and it’s occuring much quicker due to humanities global actions.

      David Attenborough gave a very eloquent speech on the matter, at a UN Climate Change Summit in Poland recently, and I’m inclined to agree with him.

      • michael norton

        RoS now that the yellow jackets have brought the French economy to its knees, the French government will be quickly moving away from global warming taxes for the poor working classes.
        Other countries will take note.

        • Republicofscotland

          You never know Michael, although nearly two-thousand Yellow Jackets have been arrested so far.

          Some might not agree but the French really know how to show their government that they’re not happy about economic policies. If only other nations citizens had a bit more militant tendencies about them, governments might think twice about imposing horrendous policies on their denizens.

        • SA

          The problem is that this has been presented as a green tax to combat greenhouse gases but this is totally phoney. You cannot tackle greenhouse gases by taxing the poor who depend on transport and everyday living for these fuels whilst huge industries, multinationals and large economies continue to produce large amounts of the stuff. A policy to find replacements is required, or tax on air travel as suggested by Craig before.
          Moreover it looks as if the French have had enough not only because of the fuel taxes but because France has become much more expensive, food, services and other expenses. No wonder people had enough.

          • Dave

            Higher taxes on plane fairs, so only the rich can holiday in areas with a higher temperature!

          • Clark

            Who cares? We’ll all lose our liberty if we permit the biosphere to be stiffed. Simple matter of priorities.

            Extinction? REBELLION!

          • Clark

            If needs be.

            You seem not to have understood the seriousness of the situation. The extinction rate is 1000 times its historical background rate. In terms of our generations the changes seem slow, but compared to the geological record they’re like lightning; there’s nothing like it recorded in the rocks.

            If we were on a crippled ship you’d support measures like rationing. Well spaceship Earth is in big trouble, and there are no lifeboats and no coast to reach. We solve the problems we’ve created or we go under. Our political preferences are irrelevant beyond saving our only home.

          • Dave

            In other words world government to enforce world rationing aka the dictatorship of the 1% in the name of saving the planet.

          • Clark

            If you say so Dave.

            I’ve looked at the science and it is compelling. It shouldn’t be a surprise; I’ve seen the human population double in my lifetime, and our lifestyle has a very large impact upon the environment. Human activity nearly destroyed the atmospheric ozone layer, but action was taken swiftly and that disaster was averted. But it was just one problem.

          • Johny Conspiranoid

            Being true never stopped anything from being weaponised in the interests of power.

          • N_


            You seem not to have understood the seriousness of the situation. The extinction rate is 1000 times its historical background rate. In terms of our generations the changes seem slow, but compared to the geological record they’re like lightning; there’s nothing like it recorded in the rocks.

            And you propose…rationing air miles?! There have been fast changes before. Who said consumer capitalism would survive long?

          • Clark

            “And you propose…rationing air miles?!”

            No, that’s just my reply to Dave’s correct criticism that taxation of air flights would be unfair.

            “Who said consumer capitalism would survive long?”

            I’m trying to ensure it doesn’t take down civilisation and possibly all humanity when it inevitably sinks. Stop giving legitimacy to the deniers!

      • SA

        Sorry RoS but your previous post was very clearly saying that we should hedge our bets and think of the worst but hope for the best. You stated
        “The thing is if global warming is true, and who’s to say with any certainty either way, if we’re wrong and it is, then much of the planet will become uninhabitable, or flooded, wages won’t matter then”.

        Reminds me of agnostics who either half heartedly practice a religion or convert in their deathbeds because they have nothing to loose by ‘believing ‘.

        • Clark

          “…and who’s to say with any certainty either way…”

          Me. Every piece of the global warming science I have looked at has been utterly sound, and every counter-argument has been trivial to refute.

          • Dave

            Hardly encouraging, considering you also promote spontaneous combustion due to shock and sympathy collapse theory, to explain the destruction of three towers with a combined height of 267 storey’s on 9/11.

          • Clark

            Yep. If you can’t work out that a floor structure designed to withstand at most ten times its own weight will collapse if eleven stories fall on it, you haven’t a hope of understanding climate change.

          • Clark

            “Combined height”. LOL.

            And since when did a building get stronger by being higher? Heh, it’s easier to build them taller you know; the short ones invariably fall down. It’s just a conspiracy that we use rockets to launch satellites, since space elevators are simple to construct if you have enough Lego.

          • Blunderbuss

            Most of the IPCC’s global warming “science” I have looked at has been utterly unsound.

          • Deb O'Nair

            “If you can’t work out that a floor structure designed to withstand at most ten times its own weight will collapse if eleven stories fall on it, you haven’t a hope of understanding climate change.”

            The lower floors of the towers, with the help of the massive central core, successfully held the entire weight of the block for decades and as the block was ‘collapsing’ (i.e. turning into fine grained dust) the loading would have been reducing on the lower floors.

            Photos of the site once the dust had cleared show very little left in the way of structural debris. The entire debris pile (including in the basement levels) contained less than 10% of the building’s mass. So the remains of the upper floors could not have caused the destruction of the lower floors because they were not there – they had already been turned into fine dust. Anyone that watches the destruction of the twin towers and believes they are watching a building ‘collapse’ is suffering from a major cognitive impairment.

          • Clark

            Blunderbuss, don’t LIE. I went through EVERY criticism you raised, and in EVERY case, the IPCC had it right and you had it wrong.

          • Clark

            Deb O’Nair, I’m not getting into all that; I went through it all on the 9/11 thread, and the discussion is prohibited here. I worked out the collapse sequences for myself, and subsequently found myself in agreement with the fire safety and structural engineering communities. WTC7 remains very odd.

            If you think the Towers “turned to dust in mid air”, you haven’t watched the videos closely enough. I must have spent hundreds of hours doing so, downloading them and observing frame by frame in some cases. Yes, there’s some dust during the collapses, but it pales into insignificance compared with the dust clouds that welled up as the collapses hit bottom, as would be expected at the moment of maximum crushing.


          • N_

            If you can’t work out that a floor structure designed to withstand at most ten times its own weight will collapse if eleven stories fall on it, you haven’t a hope of understanding climate change.

            If a storey has been designed to withstand at most 10 times its own weight then it couldn’t have 11 storeys on top of it in the first place. The weight (gravitational force) acts through the structure, downwards.

          • Clark

            N_, you’re misunderstanding the structure. The vertical columns (perimeter and core) supported all the (horizontal) floor assemblies. Each floor assembly supported only its own weight and its load (contents and occupants), plus a safety margin. Collapse occurred, and accelerated, because the vertical columns ceased to line up vertically, thus transferring their load to the highest floor structure below the damage zone, which was never intended to support the structure above.

            Even if the horizontal floor structures could have withstood this (which they couldn’t), the load would have ended up on the truss seats – the little lugs you can see here:


          • Clark

            Steven Bowles, yes of course I know about the e-mail leak. Big deal. The polar ice is retreating, and at an accelerating rate. Species are becoming extinct at 1000 times the usual rate. Little human scandals such as three words in an e-mail really are utterly irrelevant.

          • Deb O'Nair

            “Deb O’Nair, I’m not getting into all that; I went through it all on the 9/11 thread, and the discussion is prohibited here”

            Clark, it’s you who is (lopsidedly )’discussing’ this. I take the expert assessment of thousands of qualified architects and engineers over opinion holders, just like you do regarding climate change. Perhaps you should ask yourself why you felt compelled to respond (i.e. defend the official mumbo-jumbo) to Dave’s original comment.

          • Clark

            Deb O’Nair, Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth are a tiny minority, as are the global warming denialists. A&E9/11Truth have some 3000 members, mostly architects not engineers, versus more than 150,000 members of the American Society of Civil Engineers, and over 90,000 members of the American Institute of Architects.

            Twin Tower demolition theory really is the Mother Of All Conspiracy Theories. Once someone starts believing that the Twin Towers could be demolished in front of the largest global audience ever, and the global science and fire safety communities would say nothing, it opens the doors to believing that they would also fake climate change, perpetrate the supposed chemtrail conspiracy, and try to kill everyone with vaccines. It is pure anti-science, anti-intellectualism, both of which are cultivated by the mainstream media, because doing so disempowers us ordinary people.

            Understanding science is my ‘thing’. Dave even denies that water expands with temperature! The reason I feel compelled to respond is that in a world full of deception, critical thinking is the only way to empower ourselves. Is there any science you are familiar with? If so, let’s discuss that so you can evaluate my skill. If not, maybe you should either learn some, or stick to things you do know.

          • Clark

            And I don’t “defend official mumbo jumbo”. The mainstream account of 9/11 is clearly full of holes, but the Twin Towers collapsed as should be expected for such (very cheap and nasty) structures. Regarding the collapses, I tend towards the late Danny Jowenko’s position.

          • Clark

            Because it’s utterly stupid to treat a supposedly all-seeing, all-powerful God as if He could be fooled by a simple deception. “Treat God like a gullible idiot and he won’t send you to Hell”? How dumb is that?

        • Clark

          Deb O’Nair, Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth are a tiny minority, as are the global warming denialists. A&E9/11Truth have some 3000 members, mostly architects not engineers, versus more than 150,000 members of the American Society of Civil Engineers, and over 90,000 members of the American Institute of Architects.

          Twin Tower demolition theory really is the Mother Of All Conspiracy Theories. Once someone starts believing that the Twin Towers could be demolished in front of the largest global audience ever, and the global science and fire safety communities would say nothing, it is a short step to believing that they would also fake climate change, perpetrate the supposed chemtrail conspiracy, and try to kill everyone with vaccines. It is pure anti-science, anti-intellectualism, both of which are cultivated by the mainstream media, because doing so disempowers us ordinary people.

          Understanding science is my ‘thing’. Dave even disputed that water expands with temperature! Is there any science you are familiar with? If so, let’s discuss that so you can evaluate my skill. If not, maybe you should either learn some, or stick to things you do know.

      • Dave

        Sir David Attenborough agreed to promote the scam in exchange for a big BBC wildlife series, a fair conclusion because he’s not a climatologist, so is no more professional qualified on the subject than a non-qualified person, and claimed to be confidence of the ‘evidence’ after seeing a graph!

        As a naturalist he knows the importance of carbon dioxide to human and animal survival, but alas has allowed his fame to lend credence to the scam, but skunks himself for a clear conscience, with the far-fetched apocalyptic musings.

        • Republicofscotland

          He might not be a climatologist, however in my opinion he’s been filming the natural world long enough to see the changes.

        • J

          “As a naturalist he knows the importance of carbon dioxide to human and animal survival…”

          As an experiment, seal yourself in a small airtight room or perhaps sellotape a plastic bag over your head. Let us know how well your theory describes the effects of too much CO and CO2 upon your survival.

        • N_

          I love David Attenborough’s wildlife series. Beautifully organised and made, they are some of the very few television products that are worth watching and keeping.

          But they also play a role in promoting the British brand globally, and he’s a propagandist for us all tightening our belts “because of climate change”, and sometimes an inner Malthusian and Social Darwinist message of “population control” comes out too. Those dirty plebs – they’ve been breeding I tell you! Single mothers! Council flats! Darkies! Alumni of state schools! Whenever refined and decent people turn their backs, they go at it like rabbits!

    • Tony_0pmoc

      SA, all “climate change doubters and outright deniers posting” denial of the fact the climate has always changed and always will, have probably not done physics, maths and history at school, but concentrated on their religious, artistic, and political studies…

      And anyhow if their theories are correct, which I seriously doubt the main effects from a UK point of view is..

      Number 1 Westminster and all these useless idiots who go to work every day Mon-Friday will be drowned, when The Thames Barier fails to go up, because of an unpredicted software failure.

      Number 2. All the colourful tropical fish will return to the now warmer Irish Sea, The North Sea, and The Atlantic Ocean, and we will be able to dive and snorkel in it, without wearing full temperature protected body & head gear..

      Number 3. The fields of Ireland and Scotland will just become so fertile, that it will be easy to not just feed ourselves, but export it too.

      Personnally, I think its going to get exceedingly cold, like in 1963.

      I do however know how to build an igloo, cos I’ve done it with my brother.

      We used a block of ice for the window.

      It lasted 3 months.


      • Clark

        Tony, climate hasn’t “always changed”. Rather, it has exhibited tens or of millions of years of stability separated by relatively sudden changes to a new regime. The current change, caused by human activity, is many times faster than any change that has occurred before. In addition, a sixth mass extinction is occurring; again, it is happening extremely fast and human activity is the cause. The situation is extremely serious. It is a global existential crisis.

        “…have probably not done physics, maths and history at school, but concentrated on their religious, artistic, and political studies…”

        Not me. I’m the opposite of that. I like this sort of thing:

          • Clark

            They happened, but they were localised; not global changes such as we are seeing now. And the rate of extinction of species wasn’t 1000 times the background rate, which it is now.

          • Nick

            @Clark. Hi. I would agree that failing biodiversity is an issue, but your view on MWP & LIA isn’t settled science. There is not enough data nor the understanding behind it to assert local over global.

            How academically rigorous and exact do you think the climate sciences are? Money is pumped into both sides of the argument.

            I can see CC as a useful tool for certain agendas, and it will be you average Joe-Shmoe in their yellow jackets who will be picking up the bill. (I guess that goes for air miles too eh? ;))

            Here is our favouriite crusader for the environment, Arnie, with his cars –

            Not much of an argument, but you get my drift.

          • Clark

            It’s rigorous enough to know we’re in Deep Shit. That rising greenhouse gas concentrations increase the temperature is beyond doubt; you can check it in your own kitchen:


            That CO2 concentration is rising off the scale is beyond doubt – look carefully, because at that scale the recent rise is so steep it’s easy to mistake it for the vertical axis of the graph! –


            That the polar ice is retreating at an unprecedented rate is beyond doubt:


            We have cause and we have effect. We have predictions, confirmed and exceeded. What more do you want? How long before you stop telling your daughter that adulterated heroin might not be doing her any harm, and she should keep taking it for the economic health of the black market? I really don’t care whether some actor is a hypocrite or not; this is a tad more serious, no?

          • Nick

            Appreciate the reply as always. I’m not a denier [sic] but was curious as to how you’d reply.

            I have to respectively disagree re Arnie. It’s not a separate problem, it’s part of the same problem. He’s not alone. Let’s just say the optics are bad, real bad. (And I’ve got all his films – well apart from all those rubbish ones, where he wasn’t going around implausibly mowing down swathes of enemy goons)

            I digress. However real and urgent the problem is, it is not playing out for the benefit of the majority of the inhabitants of this planet. And then who are we saving the planet for?

            And if any weather control experts want to step in…? 😉


          • Clark

            As things stand I’m opposed to the proposed stratospheric aerosol injection programmes; Earth’s weather systems are vast and complex, making predictions of their effects highly uncertain. I’m in favour of emissions reductions and diverse carbon capture, directly from the atmosphere and oceans. Let’s get the greenhouse gas concentrations back down to something approaching normal. If we try to compensate with other emissions we risk massive unanticipated consequences, or, if first indications seem encouraging, they’ll be used as an excuse for business-as-usual and its exponentially increasing greenhouse gas emissions, and then we’ll really be caught in a vice, unable to stop either until the jet fuel runs out, forcing catastrophe.

            There’s no point asking me about celebs ‘cos I avoid such media. I really have no idea how such people behave, nor what views they claim to support.

          • Nick

            @Clark, It appears celebrities are used politically – tell me otherwise -.I have plenty of evidence. And if so, why does dismissing them help your argument?, Arnie’s not some random celeb who endorses environmentalism. He’s a poster boy/ageing action hero for the movement.

            You pretend to be unaware of this, but I suspect you are. Sorry.

          • Clark


            “why does dismissing [celebs] help your argument?”

            Because my argument is scientific. Politics is irrelevant to data, and frequently hostile to reason.

            “You pretend to be unaware of this, but I suspect you are”

            He played the Terminator. And a couple of hard man roles? It was him I saw in Total Recall wasn’t it? Stupid film. And then he went on to become governor of some US state, maybe California or Florida, or was that some TV wrestler or that ex-Navy SEAL / Underwater Demolition Team bloke who presents that Conspiracy Theory US TV show with Alex Jones?

            It’s a mad world… which I need know nothing about in order to understand the case for global warming.

      • Johny Conspiranoid

        There is nothing to stop man made and natural climate change from happening at the same time.

        • Blunderbuss

          Yes, the earth’s climate is far more complicated than carbon dioxide in a plastic bottle.

    • Dave

      mm-Climate Change is promoted by the Globalists, hence the wall to wall, mostly uncritical coverage in MSM, which is evidence its their baby.

        • Clark

          Facts, Ian. Your intention is good, but post facts; ridicule enlightens no one.

          Here’s Channel 4’s contribution:

          Coverage has generally been appalling:

          In a survey of 636 articles from four top United States newspapers between 1988 and 2002, two scholars found that most articles gave as much time to the small group of climate change doubters as to the scientific consensus view. Given real consensus among climatologists over global warming, many scientists find the media’s desire to portray the topic as a scientific controversy to be a gross distortion. As Stephen Schneider put it:

          “a mainstream, well-established consensus may be ‘balanced’ against the opposing views of a few extremists, and to the uninformed, each position seems equally credible.”

          • Clark




            – In early 2008, the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine (OISM) published their Petition Project, a list of names from people who all claimed to be scientists and who rejected the science behind the theory of anthropogenic (human-caused) global warming (AGW).

            – According to the OISM website, anyone with a Bachelor’s, Master’s, or Doctorate of Philosophy in a field related to physical sciences is qualified as a scientist. In addition, the OISM sent the petition cards pictured above only to individuals within the U.S. Based on this information, we can us the OISM’s own guidelines to determine how many scientists there are in the U.S. and what percentage of those scientists are represented by the OISM petition.

            – As you can see, Table 1 shows that there were over 10.6 million science graduates as defined by the OISM since the 1970-71 school year.

            – In other words, the OISM signatories represent a small fraction (~0.3%) of all science graduates, even when we use the OISM’s own definition of a scientist.

          • Clark

            I don’t know of a petition, but surveys and systematic reviews show very high agreement that human activity is causing global warming, eg:

            “of the 13,950 articles in peer-reviewed journals, only 24 rejected anthropogenic global warming. A follow-up analysis looking at 2,258 peer-reviewed climate articles with 9,136 authors published between November 2012 and December 2013 revealed that only one of the 9,136 authors rejected anthropogenic global warming. His 2015 paper on the topic, covering 24,210 articles published by 69,406 authors during 2013 and 2014 found only five articles by four authors rejecting anthropogenic global warming. Over 99.99% of climate scientists did not reject AGW in their peer-reviewed research.”

            The “Oregon Petition” is a joke; of those “31,000 signatories”, only 39 hold qualifications in climate science.

            ” the petition and its creators are not neutral parties, and the major entities supporting it can easily be described as politically motivated. The petition was organized by Arthur B. Robinson, a conservative politician who founded the aforementioned Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine and who holds a PhD in biochemistry from the University of San Diego.

            Along with the petition itself, the document was sent out with a cover letter written by Frederick Seitz, a National Medal of Science Medal winner and a former president of the National Academy of Science who later went on to be an influential yet controversial tobacco lobbyist and who founded the George C. Marshall Institute, a conservative think tank that has since morphed into one more focused on the climate, with a long history of promoting environmental skepticism”

            Global warming denial is a well funded PR exercise:

            In 2005 alone, ExxonMobil spent mjore than $2.4 million on organizations that say what Exxon hasn’t got the credibility or the nerve to say itself.

            Here’s a list, as reported on ExxonMobile’s 2005 Worldwide Giving Report:

            Acton Institute – $50,000
            American Conservative Union Foundation – $50,000
            American Council for Capital Formation Center for Policy Research – $360,000
            American Enterprise Institute – $240,000
            American Legislative Exchange Council – $241,500
            Atlas Economic Research Foundation – $100,000
            Center for Defense of Free Enterprise – $60,000
            Center for a New Europe – $50,000
            Competitive Enterprise Institute – $270,000
            Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow – $90,000
            Free Enterprise Education Institute – $70,000
            Frontiers of Freedom – $140,000
            George C. Marshall Institute – $115,000
            Heartland Institute – $119,000
            International Policy Network – $130,000
            Institute for Energy Research – $65,000
            Media Research Centre – $50,000
            National Black Chamber of Commerce – $60,000
            National Centre for Policy Analysis – $75,000
            National Centre for Public Policy Research – $55,00
            Pacific Research Institute for Public Policy – $95,000

            That’s just for 2005. According to past reports, Exxon has contributed at least $12 million since 1998 to groups that deny that climate change is happening, deny that humans are responsible, deny that the ratio of CO2 is climbing dangerously in the atmosphere, deny that Kyoto is a good (if inadequate) first step – deny, deny, deny.


          • Clark

            Nick, we’ve known what increased greenhouse gas concentrations would do since the mid 1800s. If the temperature wasn’t rising, then we’d have a scientific mystery to explain. And we’d also need another explanation for record high temperatures, records broken and rebroken year-on-year, melting icecaps, melting glaciers…

          • jazza

            BORING and not proven – Having a few thermometers in the antarctic to measure temperture does not mean that we can retropsectively prove what the climate was like a 1000 year sago – it’s all bollocks

          • Clark

            The radiative properties of atmospheric gases have been well quantified for over a century.

            You’re dismissing the entire field of palaeoclimatology? Is that the field you resigned from?

      • nevermind

        You seem to under the impression/illusion that mmglobal warming must be a bigger business opportunity than 100 years of selling oil in all its derivatives, Dave, which is without any evidence or prospects to becpme true, because cupboard thinkers such as ypurself would never agree that there is a problem.

        I second Clarks views on climate change, our man made scientifically measured and felt observations.
        This has now been disputed since the late sixties and its about time that it entetd the few grey cells left in deniers.

        • Dave

          Religious beliefs have endured for more than a 100 years. For some CC is the new old time religion, except instead of repent your sins the end of the world is nigh, its recycle your waste, in many different coloured bins, that make the place look untidy, the end of the world is nigh!

          • Clark

            But this isn’t religion. Not only is it science, it’s simple observation. We fix it or we’re fucked, Left and Right together.

          • Blunderbuss

            Yes, simple observation of flawed data, see Nick at 07:47 above. Btw, Clark, do you call everybody who disagrees with you a liar, or is it just me?

          • Clark

            Dave is just ignorant. You, Blunderbuss, claim a scientific background, but you’re prostituting your self-claimed technical authority, encouraging in their folly a person who doesn’t even understand how water behaves when heated. Dave should reassess his ignorance, whereas you should be ashamed of yourself.

            Go encourage your daughter to take fentanyl; after all, the human body is very complex, fentanyl might not be harmful, and there’s the black market economy to think of, no?

          • Blunderbuss

            @Clark 15:05

            Earlier, you urged me to commit suicide. Now you urge me to poison someone. What sort of a person are you?

          • Clark

            No, I urged you to ignore the alarmist scientific conspiracies about gravity and aerodynamics, and enjoy natural flight by using your armpit hair. Now I advise you to make your daughter very happy by ignoring the medical conspiratorial lie that opioids are somehow dangerous. Laughable nonsense to keep people drinking alcohol After all, you linked to the petition promoted by someone who circulated similar arguments for tobacco:


          • Clark

            “…someone who circulated similar arguments for tobacco”

            Dr Frederick Seitz of the George C Marshall Institute “conservative think tank”. More on his tobacco lobbying here:


            Lyberpoulos H. Memo to various people Subject: Misuse of science: F Seitz’ paper. Philip Morris Corporate Affairs Europe. 16 March 1994, Brussels:

            “You may wish to distribute the paper to your NMA’s [National Manufacturers Associations, representing tobacco companies in each country] and Smokers Rights Groups to provide them with a tool for their communications/lobbying efforts”

            What’s sauce for the goose, Blunderbuss…

          • jazza

            i have a scientific background and am globally mature enough to say man made global warming or climate change as it is famously called is mythology in those who want to control the people

    • SA

      One of the spurious arguments used by the capitalists is that the private sector is more efficient at running services than the public sector. This blatant lie is repeated to justify the privatisation of everything despite by now massive proof to the contrary and the major failure seen recently of many firms such as Carillon and of course the Banks in 2008.

      • Dave

        Its true that neo-liberals like privatisation, but the big privatisation agenda under New Labour and continued by New Conservative was driven by a desire to join the Euro-currency, by promoting PFI mickey-mouse private spending on public infrastructure and services to keep within the public spending rules to join the Euro-currency.

        An early infamous example was Gordon Brown’s ordering the Inland Revenue to raise money by selling off and then renting back all their buildings, which they did to a company based in an off-shore tax haven.

        • SA

          New labour did a lot of service for neoliberalism. In fact they did spend a lot of money on infrastructure but they did that by starting a massive transfer of national resources to the private sector at a time of relative prosperity. Labour gave a lot of money to the NHS but this money also went in part at least to putting in place a massive administrative infrastructure to facilitate the future privatisation of the NHS. The other massive transfer was of course through PFI, a scheme first dreamt by Major but developed by Brown. I am not sure why you are blaming the EU for PFI which is a British invention.
          But of course the largest service that Blair and Brown did for neoliberalism was to not only let the banks get on with unregulated Ponzi schemes and openly dangerous trade in derivatives, they then failed to jail the perpetrators, bailed them out with public money and even accepted a Mia culpa for the collapse without a robust defence. They thus converted an opportunity for converting the openly larcenous practices with exposures of the evils of capitalism into an own goal for pretend socialism. The period of neo labour therefore ended by a huge transfer of public money into private pockets under our own eyes. The banks to this day have hardly suffered any damage or increased regulation and continue to practice open theft of money with blessings from governments and international institutions and pseudo Socialism of bro labour has given a bad name to true socialism. The banks meanwhile have now established the precedence that they are too big to fail and neoliberalism flourishes even more with increasing unprecedented inequality. And if anybody can then believe that Trump or anyone in power in the West is trying to drain this swamp then they are not informed about what this swamp is.
          PS the legacy of the PFI schemes lives on and companies that have prospered under PFI like Carillon are slowly folding, again with massive consequences to the public purse.

          • Dave

            I never said PFI was an invention of the EU.

            PFI was promoted to resolve a New Labour manifesto dilemma. Namely how to increase spending on public services and remain within the public spending rules for joining the Euro-currency, under the terms of the Convergence and Sustainability criteria.

            They did this by attracting private money to spend on public services or at least Gordon Brown defined it as private money. The National Audit Office said it should be included as public debt as all PFI was in practice underwritten by the taxpayers and its estimated this off-the-books debt amounts to £200billion.

            In other words New Labour did spend, in a poor value for money way, £billions on public services, whilst keeping within the rules for joining the Euro, a policy Brown described as his Golden Rule, but was finally officially abandoned the day before Northern Rock was reluctantly nationalised.

    • Blunderbuss

      @Sharp Ears at 18:35

      “TfL has blamed the delay to the central section of the line on the need for testing communication between trains and signalling systems”.

      If it works, they could test it in 2 months. The fact it’s going to take 2 years suggests it doesn’t work.

  • SA

    Trump and Macron are part of the new phenomenon that the financier rentier class have decided to do away with acting behind the scene and have decided to blatantly take control on behalf of the financial mafia. Neither of them was a career politician or know anything much about politics. The Tories have of course been doing it in this country for a long time but in a much more subtle arms length manner, and have at least been pretending to be politicians foremost.

    • Dave

      Trump is constrained and has to side with the Zionists, who distrust him as an independent mind, for some protection from the Globalists who target him from both ‘left and right’, but his Make America Great Again is an anti-imperialist message and should be supported by genuine peace activists and internationalists.

      Its true US military spending has increased, but its mostly spent on obsolete weapons and sitting ducks! Apparently a newly launched $multi-million aircraft carrier has a design fault stopping planes from landing or taking off the ship.

      • Ian

        Anti -imperialist? you’ll make up any old nonsense to excuse the old fraud, a dodgy cowboy builder in cognitive decline.

      • SA

        Do you realise what you have just said? Trump is a great thinker who wants to counter the globalists by allowing his country to spend money , huge amounts, on dud projects so as to make America great again? Can’t he find some powerful intellect in his enormous brain to spend channel some of this money into a good cause that would really make America more acceptable to the world again?

        • Dave

          Its difficult for any leader to simply wave a wand and get their way as they need to negotiate around powerful vested interests, e.g. the Israel lobby in Congress who promote world war rather than make peace with the Palestinians.

          The armaments industry provides many jobs, hence Corbyn’s difficultly in persuading the unions to oppose Trident, due the loss of jobs, but my point was its difficult to be an overbearing imperialist power with dud weapons, hence why the Russians are successful on a tiny budget due to less procurement corruption and their new era weapons.

          But Trump draws on the non-interventionist (meaning foreign wars) America First tradition that says building America should replace destroying other countries, and opening the mines and bringing the industrial jobs home is good for America and the world contrary to the Globalist agenda.

  • Graham Ennis

    Craig, the lack of land reform plus reforestation in scotland is costing the economy about 35 billion a year. If scotland switched to a finland system of forestry, on the same scale, (They earn about £22 billion a year from Forest products) then added on top rural small farming….this would creat significant wealth, evenly spread. But SNP will not do this!
    Graham Ennis

    • J Galt

      You are right – Scotland’s rural areas need to be populated from her failed (sabotaged?) post industrial towns and cities – or “useless eater reservations” as I call them (no barbed wire required – where would they go!).

  • Sharp Ears

    A Thomas Piketty sees an answer to the economic woes.

    Group led by Thomas Piketty presents plan for ‘a fairer Europe’
    Manifesto by progressive Europeans calls for €800bn of levies to tackle inequality, disillusionment, climate change and migration

    Sun 9 Dec 2018
    A group of progressive Europeans led by the economist and author Thomas Piketty has drawn up a bold new blueprint for a fairer Europe to address the division, disenchantment, inequality and rightwing populism sweeping the continent.

    The plan, crafted by more than 50 economists, historians and former politicians from half a dozen countries, includes huge levies on multinationals, millionaires and carbon emissions to generate funds to tackle the most urgent issues of the day, including poverty, migration, climate change and the EU’s so-called democratic deficit.’

    He is wrong. The levies imposed will just be passed on to the 99%.

    • Ken Kenn

      apparently a critique of Picketty is that he only concentrates on earned income – not unearned accrued income year on year.

      This unearned ( rentier ) income is allegedly added to total GDP as proof that the economy is growing.

      The problem is that this income is untaxed as it is not deemed to be income but dividends.

      Of course ordinary peoples incomes are taxed. They are not above the Law of course.

      Unearned income from rents/land etc must be special.

      See: Michael Hudson economist for details on youtube.

      • Discombobulated


        I read the Guardian piece on the Picketty proposal and saw exactly what you say. There was only a tiny increment (1% extra tax) proposed on wealth and assets.

        Unearned income should be the main target of taxation (for both moral and practical reasons), but Picketty’s suggestions are limited to individual earnings (admittedly high earnings) and corporate profits, while leaving rentier income almost untouched. I agree that corporations need to pay their share, and I’ve always though that some kind of maximum wage is logically required in order for a minimum wage to have any meaning or purchasing power (otherwise min wage is always running a losing race against inflation, especially the kind we have seen in rents and housing) – so I’m with Picketty on the general idea of higher taxes for those who can most afford it. I just think that earnings (and maybe even profits) are off-target. We should concentrate instead on taxing rentier incomes and tax them hard.

        If land was nationalised we would have the basis for a common wealth. Since the land is a natural resource it should not be privately ownable in itself. Private land ownership encourages non-productive land banking and rent-seeking. Only the people (either through the mechanism of the state or some form of devolved commmunity custodianship) should be able to collect rents/taxes from the land and other natural resources. This wouldn’t prevent private individuals or corporations from profiting from economic activity on the land, but such profits would have to be based on productive use/value added rather than from non-productive, economically perverse activities such as rent-collection, land-banking or flipping for capital gains.

    • Ian

      Anonymous person on blog declares people who have actually done some work and research wrong, on the basis of, er, nothing at all, other than conviction that he is always right. lol. let’s not try and solve the serious problems we face, when we can have armchair experts holding forth with their superior knowledge about everything.

      • glenn_pt

        _She_ is always right, shhurely?

        I’m not actually sure what sort of society SE wants, because she refuses to engage in anything except negative dialogue.

        • Molloy


          For “I” and for “G”.. . . . so very transparent!


          He Knows No Artichokes

          She didn’t mind his toxic tan
          or his weasel taste in toothpaste.
          What she did mind was
          the way he’d Cheshire cat
          the woman from the council
          and the way she visa versa
          would Cheshire cat him.

          It was on the tip of her tongue
          to tell visa versa
          that he was poison on the inside
          and not to be fooled by his silk sheet face
          or them hammer your knickers to the ground eyes

          and furthermore when he tells you
          he likes the Jerusalem artichokes
          forget it, the liary yoke knows no artichokes.
          She has a good mind to tell visa
          about his guacamole hole
          only she’d probably pity him.
          He had a way of making the females pity him
          a toxic tan way of touching the pity spot.

          If they really knew,
          his favourite food was
          dried pigs blood with a thistle on top
          and if he’s not having a collision with a fry up
          he’s traumatized.

          Jerusalem artichokes my crack,
          don’t be fooled
          by his silk sheet face, she’d say
          he’s rotting from the inside out
          I know it and the street knows it
          the council should know it too.

          Rita Ann Higgins


      • SA

        The beauty of this blog site is that anyone can express thier views even if they are absurd as long as they abide by rules of the blog. SE does a lot of digging about certain people beyond the news headlines often keeping us here well informed. You may disagree with what she says but you can refute and argue, in a constructive way.
        In this particular case I disagree with SE’’s assesment about the Pickett group’s conclusions although I can see why she said what she did. I think that most of their proposals are good but some like property taxation and carbon tax may need to be finessed in order not to be regressive. The value of this posting was thus not nescessarily what SE’s opinion is but that it made me for one read that article and look at it critically, I was not biased by what she said.
        Interestingly I can also see why SE did not like this group because Gordon Brown is a member. GB prevailed in the greatest service to neoliberalism under the pretence of being a ‘socialist’. Please see my answer to Dave above.

        • Ian

          Indeed, SA, but what is the point of serially posting links without any inclination to support your assertions other than groupthink out of hand dismissals. It is yah boo politics, of the Dick Emery kind – google a lot of stuff, watch some rubbish tiv, and then rush to a favourable blog site, to burnish credentials by declaring ‘ooh, aren’t they awful’? Expecting a ready hearing. That isn’t debate of any useful kind, and is fairly typical internet behaviour, where you seek out your favourite confirmation bias and then parade it as evidence of your superior insight, while doing nothing to engage people in debate or do some thinking of your own.
          The Piketty thing is interesting, not because he is necessarily right, but because it is a debate that is desperately needed, with some accompanying answers and suggestions. Climate change and the Trumpian/nativism neo fascism (just read Sarah Churchwell on the origins of America First) are real problems that need addressing, not a lot of pointless virtue signalling. I could care less whether Gordon Brown is involved because I don’t have a knee-jerk tribal reaction that anything he says must be suspect, which most people here will of course have – thus saving them the bother of addressing the arguments. And so it goes on, a nice little echo chamber and mutual back patting.
          At least Craig does think for himself, whatever your opinions of his pieces.

    • Tatyana

      Thanks, Tony.
      This is what we have in Russian news:
      Huawei is the third largest producer of smartphones, after Samsung and Apple.

      “… Wall Street on December 6 went into the “red zone”. Futures on all the leading US stock indices fell by 1.5%. The fall of the S & P 500 futures was so strong that trading was temporarily suspended on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. The sharp decline in the shares of American technology giants – Apple, Netflix and Nvidia…
      … Europe Stoxx 600 fell during the bidding by 2.3% – to two-year lows. Hong Kong stock markets fell by almost three per cent. The key Japanese Nikkei index lost 2.3% of its value, South Korean KOSPI – 1.4%…
      …The Chinese Foreign Ministry demanded the immediate release of Meng Wanzhou, warning of another escalation of the trade war between the United States and China…”

      Regarding russian humor. The title of the article is – Trump says ‘Huawei you’
      * ‘Hu’ sounds in russian like ‘[email protected]

      • Molloy


        Yes, Taty – That is funny imho. Truly funny.

        For me, sorry, it’s universal humankind . . . .h u m o u r !! Not exclusively Russian. Sorry to argue.

        (In judicial circles in the UK so-called American spelling/useage is, errmm. . . . seen as a little disrespectful. Just saying!!)

        In passing, anybody possessing half a brain on this site knows perfectly – absolutely obviously – well that Russian Federation and ordinary Russian people have been grotesquely defamed and libelled by the mindlessly stupid and pointless DS U$UK sociopath warmongers.
        (UK elite/establishment ‘feckers’ have been playing that game for 800 years.)

        For me, 20 million Russian heroes will never be forgotten (whatever criminal politicians say). We are all human beings.
        Honestly, many on here neither wish to see Russians ‘dissed’; nor wish to read, or need to read, an agenda? for ‘bigging up’ Russia.
        A good number of ‘normal’ people have known the reality for some time. So, it is not worthy of you to feel the need to keep reminding us! (I, for one, will no longer take you seriously; and will be looking for the slyly concealed message. . . . you know, I’ve read the wrong’uns, this is an open comment site whatever, attracting rather too many ‘shitespeak’ gob$hite doublespeaking moron$

        p.s. Again, that is a superb joke. However. You know, some of my friends are inclined to look sideways and grimace when hearing ‘that kind of language’.
        Enjoy the Father Ted video. re. ” ‘that kind of language’ ”

        Father Ted | Pulp Fiction _ Pauline McLynn

        Go well and Sláinte.


  • N_

    Those who pull Nigel Farage’s strings may now be in a position where they could screw the Labour party in any general election, positioning UKIP 2 as moderate with respect to Tommy Robinson.

    But what about in a referendum? That’s a different ballgame and what a new party’s effect would be there I don’t know. Last time there were two main Leave campaigning organisations, Leave.EU and Vote Leave, aimed at different markets. This time? Hard to predict. Leave will need to fire up xenophobic fervour on their side, but they don’t want to lose the middle ground by letting Remain successfully paint the vote as being all about Tommy Robinson. If Leave don’t make inroads in the middle, they may find they lose some of the luvvie vote. Turnout will probably increase, and Leave need to aim to win some votes from Remain, at least in middle-of-the-market churning. (I still think Leave will win, probably with an increased majority. But I am forcing myself to consider the possibility that things aren’t so clear and that Remain has a good chance.)

    Word is that Remain may brand itself as “Stay” this time, the penny finally having dropped. Any good writer knows that whether you choose a Romance-root or an Anglo-Saxon-root word is of great significance. in 2016 the Leave side was the “don’t tell us what to do – we want to leave” side. Remain said “we consider the avenue of remaining to be the most beneficial”.

    A referendum with three options, whether we have to list our top two in order of preference (Alternative Vote system) or answer two different questions (e.g. Leave versus Stay, followed by “If Leave, then Deal or No Deal”) has the whiff of insanity about it but could happen. Until a short time ago I didn’t think the Commons would vote against “May’s Deal” and then vote to include it as an option in a referendum, but they might. Or they could play silly buggers and bat the issue to the Electoral Commission and the Supreme Court, filling the front pages with disagreements over exactly what should go on the ballot paper once it’s been decided there will be another referendum. A kind of British highly protocolled-up and procedural version of a “government of technocrats”! Their lordships’ and ladyships’ house may get some airtime too.

    AV would probably be better for Leave, because almost all voters would have to say they backed at least one Leave option. It’s well known in advertising that a good way to influence people is to get them to write down that they favour something. This is part of what “Like” buttons are about, and it’s also why companies hold competitions saying e.g. “Complete the sentence ‘I like Pedigree Chum because …’ using no more than 10 words. The technique is also used in the classes they allow drivers to attend as an alternative to getting licence points for non-dangerous speeding offences. Earlier it was used by Chinese authorities on US prisoners in Korea.

    • michael norton

      Last evening that green woman, caroline lucas said there should be a new people’s vote with two questions, remain or teresa may’s option.

      of note she would not let us vote full leave.

      • N_

        @Michael – That’s one question with two possible answers.

        A three-option question in a referendum with the winner decided by Alternative Vote – has this actually been done before anywhere in the world?

        Ask two questions, the responses to the second one only taken account of if one particular answer to the first question wins, and of course you are straightaway not treating all options the same, which is going to upset some people. But of course they three options AREN’T equidistant from each other, so why should they be treated the same?

        There is no “objectively right” answer to the question of how to decide between Remain, No Deal and Deal (whether it’s May’s or another one) in a referendum.

        I thought it was hilarious that when there was a referendum on AV as a sop to the Liberal Democrats, almost the only people who voted for AV who weren’t Liberal Democrat supporters (who were clearly always going to support it) were academics in Oxford and Cambridge. They thought they were so clever. They love to think they are rational and the plebs aren’t. But they missed the point that this isn’t computer programming.

        • nevermind

          Tge Alternative vote is a pumped up FPTP system, far more impottant, it was grudgingly chosen , a take it or leave it ultimatum.
          Choice would have included jubilant Mps widening voters options by adding STV and the AMS system, but they decided to keep fair proportional voting shakelled, and for.their very own selfserving, cheating reasons.
          Why would any MP not be interested in a much fairer vote?

  • Discombobulated

    I try not to be overly pessimistic, but I’m getting old, and I wonder whether any principles of social justice and organisation, however well considered and intended, can prevail for long over humanity’s anti-humanitarian traits. Greed, lust for power, zero-sum survival struggles, corruption, in-group favouritism and persecution of out-groups, predation by the powerful against the weak… all these have been with us throughout our species’ history. We’ve been capable of, and produced, a lot of good things as a species too, that’s undeniable, so there are reasons to keep alive some hope for humanity. All the same, it is hard.

    Sorry, not much of a contribution to the debate. Just an expression of my personal exhaustion at this moment in time. Thank goodness, it’s not all about me, then, eh? I appreciate reading all your thoughts and continuing efforts to set the world to rights.

    • glenn_pt

      My old man’s pessimistic conclusion was that greed was going to be the downfall of humanity, that which rendered us to no hope whatsoever for a future. My old mother said recently that it looked like we were turning a corner back in the day, and about to achieve some enlightenment, but obviously we did not. I thought so too, back in my misbegotten youth, a bit more recently.

      Then again, didn’t whoever was currently in charge of humanity always see these entirely negative outcomes were inevitable given the degeneracy of their own generation, and that even worse was to follow? Having said that, the entire destruction of the ecosystem was not high on our ancestors’ list of concerns (nuclear war aside, granted). Now, it is the primary and most immediate concern – just as a consequence of business as usual. Which is exactly the way we are going to conduct ourselves, as we run our life support system into the ground.

      • J

        If greed was more than a habit (which can be fed and appealed to) would it require several hundred billion dollars each year in global PR spending to make it so, universal?

  • Molloy


    Taty — Yes (why the ‘defensive’, pray?)

    Uncannily an absence of space to reply. (your intriguing point is reproduced for analysis below)

    Frankly, the toxicity, barb or otherwise of a ‘joke’ – as with any abuse, for example – is wholly for the judgement of the recipient. The reader. The listener. The audience. The analyst. Not. The ‘joke’ maker. (i.e. what you claim to be a joke. . .)
    Simply that. e.g. The Yawning Heights; A Zinoviev. Anything by Vygotsky, L.

    My view, fwiw, empathising with Russian ordinary humankind is that, your ‘unwittingly’ perhaps but I strongly suspect not, is without doubt undermining and divisive of others, Russian people, all of us. Toxicity.

    Hmmm. . . . interesting that you apparently make such a ‘song and dance’ about your extensive knowledge of Russian people. It can only ever be your personal subjective view.
    Being that adamant and self-righteous then begs the question for what purpose? Why so important to you (on this site) to often ‘big up’ your sociological credentials?

    You have no evidence. Only your subjective take and opinion and possible bull#$**t; accompanied by what seems like virtue-signalling by your good self designed to hide goodness knows what motives.

    Holding a Russian passport and claiming to be Russian is irrelevant and a tad wearisome. Why go to such length to emphasise your expertise and credentials?

    Therefore, bigotry. Regardless of your assertions.

    As we say in Ireland, take 5 minutes to catch on to yourself and spare us the ‘doublespeak’.
    Have a nice day full of “humor”. And. Do. Say hello to “nevermind” at Mo$$ad for me too.

    ¡No pasarán!


    (your original reply blocked comment)

    December 9, 2018 at 17:12
    Molloy, are you serious asking that? I’m russian ? We are mocking everything, including laughing at ourselves.
    Our humor is often ‘black humor’ but it only involves imaginary situations, fiction.

    Joking in Russia is never intended to offend anyone, just to have fun.
    I know it is not the same in other countries, people are cotiously choosing words and situations for jokes.
    We don’t. We’ve got tons of jokes about politics, LGBT, religion, nations, stupid and smart people…

    I assure you, russian cars, as well as russian roads, and russian football players are common topics.

    • SA

      Indeed this should be explosive. But ultimately what the BBC May find out is that they could equally be damned by thier silence.
      It is also the case that HMG has refused to make a fuss of very blatant interference in internal British politics practiced by a close friend and ally and exposed by Al Jazeera.

    • Sharp Ears

      He is to be greatly admired Brian.

      He has also spoken out about a Pink Floyd tribute band appearing in Israel.
      ‘“To sing my songs in front of segregated audiences in Israel, and contribute to the cultural whitewashing of the racist and apartheid government of that country, would be an act of unconscionable malice and disrespect,” Waters wrote. “The people you intend to entertain are executing their neighbor’s children, shooting them down in cold blood every day. In the name of everything human, PLEASE hear my plea and cancel today.”

      They have cancelled their three planned appearances.

    • Andyoldlabour

      @Sharp Ears,

      Thanks for that, at least most of the comments show that people are not buying this crap any more.

      • Paul Barbara

        @ Ian December 10, 2018 at 12:09
        It wouldn’t matter if it was fifty five years old, the point is obvious.
        The plain, unvarnished truth, rather than government and media BS propaganda.

  • Sharp Ears

    An account of one person’s experience of the American health system, coming here if the Tories have their way.

    Case Study of 1

    It’s heartbreaking to read as are some of the comments.

    His biog note – ‘I’m Alex Press, an editor, writer, and political organizer newly in New York by way of Boston. This blog covers politics from a left-wing perspective. It’s also occasionally a venue for personal essays. Those, of course, tend to be more popular.’

  • michael norton

    French Economic Catastrophe
    President Macron, who has remained silent during the month of protests – reportedly for fear of inflaming the situation – tweeted on Saturday: “To all the forces of order mobilised today, thank you for the courage and exceptional professionalism you have shown.”

    Minister of Economy says this is a Catastrophe for France

  • flatulence'

    December 9, 2018 at 11:45

    State funded anti Corbyn, I mean anti Russia-bot cell, I mean think tank, discovered in Scotland. Anti Scottish independence too? If not at this cell then almost certainly at another.”

    When I posted this, I was already late to the party. Where’s the raids? Where’s the interrupted broadcasts with breaking news and arrests. I don’t know much about Watergate (or anything for that matter), but I vaguely remember reading that it was to do with snooping on, and disrupting, the domestic opposition.

    No mention, no coverage. Where are the raids? This won’t be the only cell. This won’t be their only agenda. Why are the culprits being given a head start. All evidence destroyed. Nothing to see here. Where are the handcuffs?? Resignations don’t cut it, especially when they are back in a higher post months later. Scum.

    • flatulence'

      “I don’t know much about Watergate (or anything for that matter), but I vaguely remember reading that it was to do with snooping on, and disrupting, the domestic opposition.”

      This may be completely false, having skimmed a bit on the pedia. Don’t know where I got my ideas on Watergate, probably half watched a film. I probably said ‘remember reading’ to delude myself as to appear more intelligent. Still, this would make what’s happening in the UK worse than Watergate, though I’m obviously not qualified to make that comparison.

      • Paul Barbara

        @ flatulence’ December 10, 2018 at 11:37
        Actually it was a scam to get rid of Reagan so Vice President G H W Bush would ascend to the throne, and was intentionally leaked.

    • Clark

      Institute for Statecraft, incorporated November 2006. They have an entry at Companies House:

      LAFAYEEDNEY, Daniel; Edinburgh
      COOKE, Anthony Roderick Chichester Bancroft; 2 Temple Place, London
      DONNELLY, Christopher Nigel; Cumbria
      HART, Harry; 2 Temple Place, London
      LAFAYEEDNEY, Daniel; again, this time at Donnelly’s address, Cumbria
      MATTHEWS, Philip; London
      MCTERNAN, Oliver James; Monternay, France
      NAGY-MOHACSI, Piroska; 2 Temple Place, London
      SZUSTERMAN, Julia Celia, Dr; 6th Floor, Granville House, 132 Sloane Street, London, England, SW1X 9AX

      What’s at 2 Temple Place, London WC2R 3BD and Flat D, High Hundhowe, Burneside, Near Kendal, Cumbria, LA8 9AB?

      Powerbase have a page; not yet updated to include this matter. They’re associated with the Prevent programme, and NATO Public Diplomacy:

      Frank Church at WhatDoTheyKnow has sent an FOI Request to the FCO:

      • flatulence'

        nice one Clark. I just hope there is an arm of the powers that be are doing something. We can’t do what they must now. The info is there. RAIDS! There needs to be justice for the people and for democracy. We can fix it and come back all the better and stronger. Don’t cover up, fix it!

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