When is a British Person Not British? 430

The attitude to immigrants which is betrayed by the stripping of citizenship from Shamima Begum is truly appalling. A British citizen, born in the UK, is deemed to be a citizen of another country they have never seen, because their immigrant parents came from there. To refuse to accept first generation Britons are Britons, as in Windrush, was bad enough. To claim that second generation Britons are not British, but rather citizens of where their ancestors “came from”, is racism pure and simple.

Begum is not a sympathetic figure. Savid Javid could not have found an easier target for his macho display of vindictiveness, guaranteed to win plaudits from the bigots whose votes Javid needs for his looming Tory leadership bid. Javid knows full well his decision will eventually be overturned by the courts, but he has already achieved his political objective of personal self-aggrandisement.

I do not know everything Begum has personally been doing in Syria and to what extent she has been culpable in any of the crimes of the Saudi backed jihadist group Daesh, originally launched by the CIA as a counterweight to Shia influence in Iraq. Begum, as with other members of the ISIS community in Syria, ought initially to be subject to any legal proceedings by the Syrian authorities on behalf of the Syrian people against whom such dreadful crimes were committed. If of no interest to the Syrian justice system or once any sentence has been completed, she should be returned to the UK and then subject to investigation as to whether any UK crimes were committed. All these processes need to take into account that she arrived in Syria as a minor, has been subject to indoctrination, and may well have severe mental health issues.

In a situation where the government is falling over itself to bring members of the UK-funded jihadist support group the White Helmets to the UK, having no claim to British citizenship; in a situation where jihadist activity in Syria was entirely dependent on finance, supplies and air support from the US, UK, and its Gulf State allies; in a situation where the Royal Navy had evacuated the Manchester bomber en route back to the UK after his Western backed terrorist jaunt in Libya; in a situation where the Manchester, Westminster and London Bridge terrorists all had extensive pre-existing relationships with the British security services; in all these circumstances, the decision to crack down to general applause on a bewildered East London child is a sickening example of the lack of ethics in modern politics.


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430 thoughts on “When is a British Person Not British?

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  • Squeeth

    Quite agree, this looks like a device to evade a trial in Britain, where awkward questions could be asked like if what she did was wrong, was it different to the Libyan terrorists sponsored by Six to commit outrages in Libya? Zionist hoodlums travelling to Palestine for a bit of tourist terrorism?

    • Laguerre

      Britain may not get a choice, if no-one else is willing to give her citizenship. My guess is an errant drone missile mistakenly taking her out. There are a lot of misfiring drone missiles up there in NE Syria, and it’ll be all very regrettable. It might even be a British one.

    • Laguerre

      It’s the nasty atmosphere Soubry was talking about this morning, though there in a Tory context.

  • Graham

    “To refuse to accept first generation Britons are Britons, as in Windrush, was bad enough. To claim that second generation Britons are not British, but rather citizens of where their ancestors “came from”, is racism pure and simple.”

    Yet, Craig, more than once when mentioning the royals you’ve called them “German” in a pejorative way. Liz is British-born, of British-born parents, and her children are all British-born. Phil was born in Greece, of mixed European heritage but mainly German, but he’s been a UK resident for 70+ years. I’m not a royalist either but I’ve never liked the “they’re German, not British” argument; it’s a cheap shot and it isn’t consistent with your point above.

    As for Amima Begum, I doubt very much whether she knew or cared that Daesh was a western- / Saudi-created tool of imperialism. She liked what she saw and went off to join up. I’m sure there are many others in that refugee camp who are far more deserving of our sympathy and help.

    • Herbie

      I’m sure she learned quite a lot about the British operation in Syria. The weapons. The wages. The special forces. Where they came from.

      Chickens coming home to roost.

      Or not.

      Anyway, the end of Atlanticism has certainly buggered up Britain’s ability to control the narrative.

      Desperate times.

      Probably explains the laughable lightweights in the highest offices of state.

      Anyone with any brains is staying well clear of this mess.

      • Charles Bostock


        “I’m sure she learned quite a lot about the British operation in Syria.”

        As a housewife?

        Or do you have any reason or evidence to believe that she was a combattant?

        Perhaps you’re just being darkly predictive agaion.

        • Herbie

          She’d learn those things from observing, listening and talking.


          You see, even proxy terrorists get a bit miffed when the pay packet doesn’t turn up. They bitch about it.

          When Vanessa Beeley interviewed the White Helmets, almost the first thing they complained about was that they hadn’t been paid for a month.

          I’m sure you’ll be able to find that video yourself.

          • Spencer Eagle

            It’s the same with the refusal to grant asylum to the Afghan interpreters used by the British army. They don’t want them in the UK because of what they saw and what they know.

          • Charles Bostock

            “She’d learn those things from observing, listening and talking.


            Simply rubbish, Herbie.

            You’re making her out to be a front-line terrorist just to suit your little conspiracy theory.

          • Herbie

            In Republican communities in NI in the 70s, everyone knew who was who, what was what, including the housewives.

            Especially the housewives.

            Women have their own networks in a community. And they talk, a lot. They gather intelligence from their males and spread it out amongst the females.

            They know more about the male hierarchy than it knows about itself.

  • John Pink

    What a load of rubbish. Murray’s views are themselves subversive. It is this sort of liberal left attitudes that endanger the security of this community country.Begim made her bed with the enemies of Britain and should remain there:

    • Rob Royston

      She was not fighting the British, she was fighting the Syrians which as far as I could make out was what the British government wanted to do.

      • Mary Paul

        she supported attacks on the British by her own acknowledgement, in retaliation for British attacks on ISIS.

        • Jo1

          The British were funding terrorist rebels in Syria who were linked with IS and al Qaeda! They weren’t fighting IS, they were trying to bring down Assad’s government and impose regime change!

      • Pete Whitelock

        I don’t think ‘fighting the Syrians’ is the most salient feature of Daesh. How about ‘beheading anyone who’s not an islamofascist’.

    • Andrew Ingram

      Nice bit of faux avuncular outrage John Pink, shame about the grammar.
      You should’ve tippled to the fact that we read this blog for the subversive views.

      • Garth Carthy

        Absolutely! The more subversion the better!
        Any status quo that is as rotten as ours needs subverting and a complete make-over.

    • Willie

      Craig’s assesment is bang on, Javids renouncement of her citizenship is illegal and in all truth this is a child, minor, young woman who at a child’s age was persuaded to effectively run away to possibly support a warring organisation a consequence of major power regional interventionsism.

      We do not know what, if anything she has done that may be criminal. We neither know of her state of mind.

      But one thing we we do know she is a fantastic figure to select to foment a huge public outpouring of resentment and hatred against her and her kind.

      The Brexit state needs enemies to hate, enemies to crush. Subversive Scots, the big Irish, the immigrant, or the poor – it’s how fascist states work.

      Crikey, after reading about her in the press today, the enraged public, having been encouraged to do so, would have her hanging from a the first tree or lampost after landing.

      Krystalnach – and Javid and his type cheerlead it. She needs to die!

      • Yr Hen Gof

        I’d have to agree; yesterday, many Face Book groups, mostly of a community nature were awash with support for Javid with calls for Begum and her family to be shot. Literally, to be shot.
        Amongst those expressing outrage at the presumed actions of this young woman was a QC, a retired Crown Court Recorder, I can only presume him to be in the grip of early onset dementia.
        Any student of recent history would find it impossible not to draw parallels with 1930’s Germany.

      • nevermind

        Well said Willie, whilst at the same time this woman is being used, by an ambitious western stooge who himself would never been seen on any frontline, the same man is quietly allowing 100 white helmets to re settle in the Uk.

        Fully facillitated by the Bibice’s softpedalling the organisation on Victoria Derbyshires important indoctrination for you program, sadly without mentioning the false chemical attacks they planned, created, filmed, and then ‘helped’ in Douma.

        Every day now we can see how massive manipulations of public consent is providing a crutch to this barely upright orifice of Government.

        The rats are leaving the two main parties, hoping to be called into coalition if they grow big enough, without having to face the electorate in an accountable position. They rather use smiles and empty retoric on the main propaganda channels, who fully support this hokey cokey shake it all aboutism as a new form of politics, as long as it involves around the same stale politicians supporting other countries genocidal policies and warcrimes commited, and a referendum of the ‘people’.
        Which people? All that live here, are permanent residents, regardless of nationalities?

        Enough to bring up your porridge.

    • sc

      Not liberal left, ‘rule of law’

      Every country has citizens it would prefer not to have, newspaper attacks and dumping them on other countries is not the way to go.

  • Mist001

    What I can’t understand is this: I’m from Edinburgh and when I was 15 years old, there’s no way that my parents would have allowed me to even travel as far as Glasgow on my own or even with a couple of friends, so how does did this 15 year old schoolgirl manage to travel all the way to a place that she likely couldn’t point to on a map?

    Where did she get the money? Do you just pop into a travel agent and ask for a flight to Syria, no questions asked? Her age must have been on her passport, so how was she able to arrange all this?

    There are so many unanswered questions about her getting there, let alone what she was up to when she arrived.

    • Anon1

      You obviously don’t know very much about Muslim communities. Money is raised, contacts are made. It’s kind of like you or I going on a gap year.

        • Photios

          ‘I’ is the Subject of the verb ‘going’ and therefore grammatically correct.
          ‘Me’ is in the Accusative case, and therefore grammatically incorrect,
          though colloquial usage often prefers it.

          • N_

            *dons mortar board*

            “Going” is a gerund, a verb form functioning as a noun. “Correct” would be “it’s like your or my going on a gap year”.

            I put “correct” in inverted commas because arguably that sentence is tending in the direction of being hypercorrect, even if it’s not quite as bad as “That was I”. “Like you or me going” is in more than just colloquial usage and is best in most contexts.

            “Like you or I going” is simply wrong. “Like” takes the accusative, not the nominative. Now you can either put “you or I” in the accusative, getting “you or me”, which given the existence of the gerund that they possess is not strictly correct; or, if you want the pronominal phrase to work with the gerund strictly correctly, you should make the pronouns possessive so that the whole noun phrase “your or my going” is accusative.

    • Jo1

      I wondered about that at the time the three of them went out there. I think I heard a report yesterday that Begun stole her older sister’s passport.

      • Kempe

        That would’ve been difficult seeing as she was an only child. I think somebody’s got her confused with another case.

        Some airlines will let children fly unaccompanied from age 14 or 15.

      • wonky

        … and was/were said organisation(s)
        a) active elsewhere and all over the place.. and
        b) infiltrated by informer spooks ?

        ummh, highly likely, this..

    • Joiningupthedots

      Dunno guy,
      Im from Glasgow and contemplated joining the Foreign Legion when I was 16-17 ( I joined something much better in the end though 🙂
      I knew where France was, where Aubange was, how to enlist, how to get there…..this was in the late 70’s???

    • John Pillager

      She stole her elder sisters passport and wasn’t checked properly.
      She traveled with 2 other young women.
      She flew to Turkey and then slipped across the border.
      Flights to Turkey are cheap…

    • Andrew Ingram

      You’ve led a sheltered life. I’m older than you and when I was fifteen I’d go to Old Trafford from Dunbar of a Saturday.
      There are many true stories of juveniles making their way half way round the world. It happens and in these days of open borders it is very easy, all one needs is the money.

    • Mary Paul

      Apparently the girls stole family jewellery and passports to raise the money and make the trip. On the day they seem to have told their parents they were going to the shops. The father of one of the girls Amina Abase, is a follower of Anjem Choudhary and was photographed on a demo with him so it is safe to assume she was subject to more radical views than those acquired from a pc.

    • FranzB

      Mist001 – “Her age must have been on her passport,”

      She travelled on her sister’s passport.

  • Michael Droy

    Britain (or any country) has two responsibilities. One is to our own people. One is to protect the rest of the world from our people.
    Of course she should be brought back. Willingly or unwillingly. Put in prison if a judge considers it appropriate. The idea that we should cast her off on the rest of the world is appalling.

  • MJ

    “deemed to be a citizen of another country”

    Not deemed so by Bangladesh, the country in question, which has no knowledge of her. International law doesn’t allow people to be made stateless. Nationality is not club membership, you’re born with it.

    • Anon1

      Technically she’s British but you can’t put a fish in a stable and call it a horse. Multiculturalism throws up these sorts of problems because you have people who are nominally British but share no identity with this country, no history in it, no sense of belonging to it, and who reject its culture and society.

      • Photios

        ‘…you can’t put a fish in a stable and call it a horse.’
        Yes you can. However, problems will surely follow…

      • SA

        False analogy. Horses and fish are completely different genera separated by millions of years of evolution. Also being born in a country is one of the ways of having a nationality especially if you have not lived elsewhere, there is nothing technical about it.

      • grafter

        “British”…”sense of belonging to it ?”…”culture”…”society”………Wtf is that all about ?? ………No thanks.

      • Wolsto

        Bollocks. She’s as British as I am. She was born here, has lived here all her life. British is a wide term that takes in people from all walks of life, always has been. What you, presumably, object to is that she’s not white.

        She was a 15 year old child who was brainwashed and trafficked, who is now being used as news item of the week so that a few politicians can do some grandstanding and an internet full of gammons and racists can sound off.

    • Mist001

      ‘Nationality is not club membership, you’re born with it.’

      In that case, her son is Syrian, so how come he’s getting UK citizenship and his Mother isn’t?

      • Laguerre

        So you know Syrian law of nationality, do you? I don’t, and I’ve been there often enough.

        • Sheepshagger

          Big leap. Being born in a country often confers citizenship of that country no matter the circumstances of one’s parents or their trajectory. It’s a humanitarian concept that Syria bought into many years ago – I’m sure.

          • uncle tungsten

            Canada does that form of nationality hijacking and people are not informed! An Australian Senator had to resign because of that.

  • Simon Hodges

    When is a British Person Not British?

    Odd question from a Scots nationalist?

    Craig – champagne socialist man of the people. He still doesn’t realise he’s part of the class problem and struggle according to his own politics. The elite Marxists will never address that contradiction though.

    • giyane


      Director of an African Elelectricity generation Company doesn’t sound like champagne socialism to me.

      Square pegs in round holes. Strange how the champagne socialists like Simon Hodges project their inadequacies onto their criticd while the foaming bonkers Tories just froth from their wired corks in rage.

      Can you explain please how come the British project their power into the Muslim world but they refuse to have the Muslim world projected onto them? Are they not equal in the eyes of the scriptures? Or do you think if Muslims were equal the sky would face in?

    • Ken Kenn

      You can’t go dancing round the world unfailing failed states rabbitiing on about freedoms and democratic rule of law etc etc unless you abide by the rules yourself.

      The question is who’s rules are the world obeying?

      The US’s or some other arbiters of alleged justice?

      Many UK people went to Syria to fight against a Sovereign nation and it’s government and President. It is irrelevant whether you like Assad or not.

      I can’t stand Donald Trump but imagine if a load of Cubans rocked up in Miami heavily armed saying ‘ Trump must go for the sake of the US people ‘

      Quite rightly the US people would say – that’s our decision – not yours.

      Or are you and others ‘ exceptional ‘ in a US way when it comes to International Law?

      Ask Tommy for advice on the matter of grooming young girls …………..oh just a minute she is the wrong tinge of skin.

      p.s. What do you mean that Craig is part of the class problem?

      Have classed disappeared?

      While your at it describe what an ‘Elite Marxist ‘ is.

      Are they the rich one’s?

    • Laguerre

      Juncker’s stepping down this year, isn’t he? So, is it really worth being being abusive about him? EU policy was never decided by him alone (rather different from May in that).

      • Hatuey

        Juncker has some sort of medical condition. Call me a slow learner but I’ve not yet evolved in the direction of ridiculing people who have medical conditions…

      • BigMac

        Junker is ~permanently drunk; who wouldn’t having to support an Uber EU vs zombie May, but also more and more other human European regional party leaders.

    • giyane


      They both know their chosen projects are doomed. EUROPEAN unity and empire2.
      Soon both will be forgotten. Cheap slogans disinterred for the last time. All the energy in the world is coming from the far East. These old farts have had their day. Both of them

      • Laguerre

        We’re just going to give up the ghost and not have a future, according to you. All the far easterners are just flooding to come to Swindon, aren’t they?

        • giyane


          The future of the UK lies with Islam according to me. We managed to get rid of popery feudalism and knitting stockings by hand so I guess we’ll work out the benefits of Islam eventually.

          If you lot are so addicted to politics that you need royalty black tights and hair perm, please feel free. The future is not orange.

          • Stephen Ambartzakis

            Giyani, before making statements which include future and Islam in the same sentence may I humbly suggest that you read Leon Uris’ books and watch some of Doctor Bill Warner’s videos first. Societies under Islam have always been ugly, dangerous, ignorant and bloody. You cannot deny that every Islamic country in the world is, either, fighting amongst themselves about which prophet was born first, or fighting some other Moslem country for having contrary views to themselves. Islam is riddled with tribal and sectarian violence.

          • giyane

            Stephen Ambarstakis

            Yes there are some pretty monstrous egos out there in the Muslim world as there are everywhere.

            Not unlike The jumped up Nazi gits , jumped up Tory gits and the jumped up git with Elvis orange coiffurr.

    • Blissex

      «Juncker was plastered and looks more senile than ever. He shuffles rather than walks.»

      He is partially but seriously disabled after a nasty accident and sometimes has to use a wheelchair.

        • Charles Bostock

          No. Schaeuble always uses a wheelchair. He was shot by a German left-wing terrorist bastard and was paralysed.

          • wonky

            You are a Schauble groupie, are you? Now that’s a neat fit.
            Both Schauble and Juncker need to be sentenced to permanent solitary confinement as two of Europe’s evilest psychopathic swamp rats in the last two decades.

    • Sharp Ears

      When I said ‘plastered’, I did not mean drunk. He had a large plaster on his cheek.

      I am sorry to read that he was injured in 1989. He is only 64 but appears much older.

  • different frank

    Will the British soldiers embedded with Jihadis like Al Nura have their citizenship removed too?

    • Laguerre

      We support jihadis – they fought the war in Syria for us. We just pretend we don’t – there’s this large hole when we insist that evil Asad must step down. Who’s going to replace him? A vast British official silence there, because, of course, the only possible answer is: the jihadis. Not perhaps the same branch of jihadis as Da’ish, but very close and quite similar, just not quite as brutal. Da’ish actually made a virtue out of being like the Mongols. HTS/Nusra in Idlib is just slightly less, and more Syrian. The British have always skipped admitting publicly who they support. It’s slightly embarrassing, isn’t it, when you’re loudly condemning Shemima Begum on one side, but actually supporting very similar people on the other.

      • giyane

        Very embarrassing for those of us who don’t lie. The Muslim world is totally unable to distinguish truth from falsehood when it plays politics: the western art of lying.
        However Islam has an alternative tradition. I guess the girl in questio is looking for a way back to Islam not Britain

      • Michael McNulty

        Yes. I bet some of the food she ate while with ISIS was supplied to them by the US, UK, Israel, France and Saudi. Where does that fit in the “traitor” charge?

    • BigMac

      UK parliament only allowed support for genuine Syrian anti-Assad groups, not for maniacs like ISIS or Al Qaida. What ever **** was done by MI6 etc. was not sanctioned by parliament.

      • Glasshopper

        And yet ISIS ended up with their Toyota landcruisers in about 5 minutes!

        Also, the “Caliphate” was established and funded by a 24/7 oil truck convoy between Raqqa and Turkey that the UK/US Air force never felt obliged to attack.

        • Mary Paul

          Actually the US did attack the oil convoy in the end. Some savy US general decided on “economic warfare” ie attacking/disrupting their supplies and sources of income and put a stop to the oil convoys. Can’t recall his name, maybe someone else can?.

      • Clark

        BigMac, I think you’d better read this:

        Pentagon report predicted West’s support for Islamist rebels would create ISIS


        It’s based on the following Pentagon document, obtained by Freedom of Information Act request:


        And where the US leads, NATO and the UK follow. You wrote:

        “What ever **** was done by MI6 etc. was not sanctioned by parliament.”

        And yet no one has been held accountable for this immense war crime of supporting terrorism. Ah yes, they’re the secret services. Well that’s very convenient, isn’t it? It makes a mockery of both parliamentary democracy and the law.

        • BigMac

          It it not at all the first time that the US/UK deep states have supported Jihad elements; Afghanistan, Chechnya or Bosnia come to mind. Arab oil is still the easiest tool to uphold the virtual dollar. That the US and UK law makers have been sleeping at the helm is deplorable, but with GCHQ and the NSA knowing all there is to blackmail the Elected they keep quiet as is expected from “Above”.
          Syria or Yemen are just repetitions of existing stupidity – Wahhabi Arab oil is still King.

  • A Bruce

    She was a minor – only 15 when she left.

    I doubt very much she was fighting anybody. For the last 4 years she’s either been pregnant – she’s had 3 babies (2 died ) – or she’s been nursing a baby.

    Javid can’t make her stateless but he will make her fight for her rights. He will lose. A mature government would find solutions and take responsibility for its citizens, the undesirables as well as the law abiding. Not dump them somewhere else.

    • Laguerre

      The US is going to have its hands full with all these regime changes, isn’t it? Or perhaps Trump is just a blowhard, and won’t go through with all the projects Bolton is telling him to launch. After all, six hours a day watching telly is tiring and time consuming.

  • John Pillager

    Thank you Craig for your unending calm and clear level headed approach to all things crazy and mad.
    Your time and words have much value.. :O)

  • Blissex

    «To refuse to accept first generation Britons are Britons, as in Windrush, was bad enough.»

    That’s enormous bullshit: over the past 40-50 years at least 90-95% of the Windrush generation applied for and got citizenship or permanent resident status. The few others either simply never applied, or did not have records of being UK residents, probably because in many cases they always worked cash-in-hand and never paid taxes.

    The Windrush campaign was a giant propaganda operation for “Britannia Unchained” after Brexit, to normalize the idea that ex-commonwealth migrants are nice, good regular folks, (while EU migrants are nasty fifth columns of the EUSSR of course). When the floodgates of immigration for very cheap ex-Commonwealth indentured guest workers are opened post-exit (to staff “Special Enterprise Zones”), any objection will be buried with “remember Windrush!!!”.

    «To claim that second generation Britons are not British, but rather citizens of where their ancestors “came from”, is racism pure and simple.»

    That discrimination against native born citizens is quite outrageous, but it is not quite racism, but rather tribalism: for many english people the only proper english people are the long standing members of the english tribe, not the newcomers. It has been applied also to 2nd and 3rd generation “not really english” native citizens of white complexion.

  • MBC

    I don’t think she should be stripped of her citizenship but I can’t see how it is remotely possible for her to return and live peacefully and anonymously in this country even if that’s what she wants to do. Which I believe she does. She might face a trial. The press will hound her, right wing crazies will hound her, would-be jihadis will hound her. She is just too infamous. Her kid would probably be removed and taken into the care of social services lest she indoctrinate it. If she wants to take her chances with all of that, then fair enough, come home to the welcoming arms of Brexit Britain. Her choice though.

  • Herbie

    Fairly similar case ongoing in the US:


    Compare and contrast.

    One lesson seems to be, don’t be a proxy for empire, they’ll just dump you when it all turns to crap, and even if it doesn’t.

    The other big thing in the US at the moment is the Jussie Smollett case.


    Two US senators filed a hate-crime bill in the senate using this case.

    What will be interesting is what contact these senators had with Smollett. As yet only redacted phone records have been supplied to the police.

  • Joiningupthedots

    While being a great admirer of you Craig your “whataboutery” can grate a bit.
    This bint knew exactly who she was, where she was going, what she was doing etc.
    She chose all of it….
    The commitment to terrorism
    The material support of terrorism
    The illegal (in UK Law) travel to participate in Syria
    The lying down in a sand pit and being impregnated by God only know who from where

    Now she wants back to:
    The DHSS
    The NHS

    Im sorry Craig….she needs to die in the desert with all of the Whahabbi rodents who dwell there

  • Chick McGregor

    A quote from the International Brigade memorial web site:

    “For the volunteers it was a departure that left them with mixed feelings. Though they wanted to get home, it is also clear that many felt that they were leaving unfinished the task they had undertaken. After the inevitable bureaucratic delays, most of the British volunteers, 305 in total, left Spain by train at the beginning of December 1938. They arrived back in Victoria Station on the evening of the 7 December 1938 where they were met by a huge crowd to welcome them back home, including amongst others, a number of senior members of the British labour movement, including Clement Attlee, the leader of the Labour Party.

    For many of the veterans of the International Brigades, the struggle against fascism would continue. Many (where they were accepted) fought in the Second World War and many joined the International Brigade Association, which continued to press for a return to democracy in Spain.”

    It’s all about political perspective.

  • Hatuey

    I think it’s about time we had a serious discussion about extremism and the way people have been radicalised over the last few years. I agree too that those who go over to the Middle East and Africa and engage in violence and terrorism should be called to account for the things they’ve done.

    I’ve lost count — how many countries have we destroyed since say 2003? We don’t really have official figures on lives destroyed but we are certainly into the millions.

    So, anyway, this girl who may or may not have played a part in that sort of stuff, I think we should skip her and move on to the real crackpots. Thankfully we have detailed records of how our politicians voted on things like decimating Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc., which should provide a solid basis for proper investigations and trials.

    I’m eager to get started. And I’m all for removing their citizenship and sending them packing, if they are found to be guilty. Let’s do it.

    • SA

      If we skip her and attack the crackpots we will soon find that we also have to attack our own crackpots who created them.

    • Stonky

      I think it’s about time we had a serious discussion about extremism and the way people have been radicalised over the last few years…

      I agree.

      I despise to the very core of my being the scumbag Western politicians who have lit a conflagration in the Middle East, and now dance around the bonfire. I suspect you do too.

      And yet, for some odd reason, I’ve never been “radicalised”. Unlike Shamima Begum, I’ve never once thought to myself “I know. I’ll go off to Syria and take part in the wholesale slaughter, rape and enslavement of the Yazidis. That’ll show ’em…”

      Unlike Salman Abedi, I’ve never once thought to myself “I know. I’ll blow up a bunch of kids at a pop concert in Manchester. That’ll show ’em…”

      So there must be some other factor at play in the “radicalisation” process. But I’m deuced if I can imagine what on earth it might be.

      • Hatuey

        Stonky, you just revealed yourself to be radicalised. Talking in highly emotive and graphic terms about the crimes of the official enemy whilst limiting yourself to sweeping generalisations and your own lofty values when talking about what “our side” does, is about as radicalised and biased as you get.

        You don’t see it because you’ve been radicalised.

        • Stonky

          your own lofty values …

          I don’t think there’s anything very ‘lofty’ in the idea that, in the (sadly) all too unlikely event that the Blair problem is ever resolved with piano wire and a lamppost, I will dance around whatever room I am in punching the air with glee and shouting “Yes!”

          Nevertheless these are my true feelings, and I must own them.

          Under no circumstances can I ever imagine myself dancing around the room punching the air with glee at the news that a group of helpless peasants in the Middle East have been slaughtered, raped or enslaved by stone age cultists, or that a group of children have been blown up at a Manchester pop concert.

          I guess there must have been a glitch in the matrix during my radicalisation process.

          • Hatuey

            And there you do it again. When you talk about our criminality, everything is contained within very narrow parameters that are contextualised to make it sound like some vague moral debate. When you talk about the official enemy’s crimes, you talk in graphic and emotive terms about things like slavery, rape, and slaughter.

            I guess you don’t know you’re doing it and aren’t able to do much else because the propaganda systems has programmed you to do that — there’s no shortage of material and grim detail on ISIS/Arab/Muslim atrocities in the mainstream. And like the mainstream, when you veer off in the direction of our terrorism etc., it lacks the same detail and is discussed in terms of whether we made some mistake or abstract ideas about justice.

            Do you imagine that the millions that we killed died in some flattering and painless way? Presumably you don’t, but you aren’t talking in the same graphic and emotive terms about that stuff… trust me, our way of killing innocent people is every bit as disgusting and depressing. If there’s a difference worth mentioning, it’s in terms of the scale we operate on. That’s about it.

          • Stonky

            When you talk about our criminality… discussed in terms of whether we made some mistake… Do you imagine that the millions that wekilled… our way of killing innocent people… it’s in terms of the scale we operate on…

            Since you’re determined to go all psychoanalytical on me Hatuey, pardon me for returning the compliment.

            There is something very wrong with a person who is as desperate as you are to own a set of actions they had nothing to do with. You seem to have done a comprehensive job of internalising the self-hatred of the idiot western progressive.

            That is your right. Don’t drag me into it. I am not part of your we and your our.

  • MBC

    There’s just something very cowardly about depriving a 19 year old lone mother of her British citizenship when she’s just had a baby and already lost two infants. She is our problem and nobody else’s.

    Not sure Britain’s the best place for her (would she ever be able to live in peace here?) but they should not deprive her of the only passport she has.

    • N_

      There is someone called “Denise Welch”, who I understand is a TV presenter and actress who played in Coronation Street, who got coverage in the Daily Mirror and on TV for opining that Shamima Begum’s baby should be forcibly adopted, because that’s “safest”. Why not go further and forcibly sterilise her? Do people see where this is going?

    • Stonky

      She is our problem and nobody else’s…

      She traveled to Syria voluntarily to lend her active support to a bunch of stone-age cultists engaged in wholesale slaughter and acts of bestial depravity, and she stayed there for years. Don’t you think that the Syrians have a right to deal with her that preempts yours?

      • Michael McNulty

        Our side put these forces together, organised them, armed them, fed them, moved them around and moved them out when they faced annihilation. These forces were fighting a sovereign state declared an enemy by western interests and aimed their weapons at other than western armies. She was embedded with pro-western forces. How can that not be on our side? As for attacking the west I’ve never been convinced these events either really happened or that our own security forces didn’t do them.

        • Stonky

          “Our side put these forces together, organised them, armed them, fed them, moved them around…”

          Speak for yourself. They’re not my side.

          “How can that not be on our side?”

          They just aren’t. They’re not my side. You can count them as your side if you want.

  • N_

    Did she enlist in a military force or assist same? Did she assist the Daesh regime as much as say P G Wodehouse assisted the Nazi one? What did she actually do?

    Also the use of the word “terrorist” needs to be unpacked. Daesh have certainly carried out acts of terrorism, but much of what they do is not terrorist. Not every horrendous inhuman act is terrorist. For example, death camps and slavery are not terrorist. That does not mean Daesh should not be wiped out. They should be wiped out.

    Those who have called Daesh a “death cult” are right. In one issue of their magazine “Dabiq” there is a gruesome and disgusting photograph of the remains of a human body that has just had its head severed, and then on another page there is a photograph of a Daesh “fighter” cuddling a cat, with a story about the symbolism and niceness of the cat’s actions.

    That reminds me of the mindcontrol techniques used by the cult around Charles Manson in California, whose members murdered Sharon Tate when she was 8 and a half months pregnant.

    It is in any case sophisticated mindcontrol.

    It also sounds like exactly the sort of propaganda that was fed to and consumed by this idiotic girl Shamima Begum.

    When a BBC reporter asked her the leading question “You say one of the reasons you joined the Islamic State was because you watched some beheading videos, is that right?”, she answered “Not just the beheading videos – you know the videos they show of families and stuff in the park, the good life they can provide you.”

    I am not defending this person who even at the age of 15 was over the age of legal responsibility and who clearly knowingly supported a murderous organisation, a death cult. But attention should be paid to the kind of dissociated whackball thinking that said organisation successfully encourages.

  • SA

    So Sajid Javid and those of his ilk, want to protect ‘British values’ by ignoring British and international law?
    The whole excercise is another big distraction and diversion. These matters should be settled through a legal route and not used for political gains. This is obviously a rally round the flag type call to distract from the actions of this incompetent government .

  • SA

    The context is this. In January 2015, the Syrian Government was fighting for its life, it had limited control of territory on the coast, major cities including Aleppo, Damascus, Hama and Latakia were under direct threat of bombardment by various factions. The West was constantly repeating that Asad must go. The fact that there were three types of ‘rebels’ Daesh, Al Qaeda and the FSA and their convenient supposed gradation between moderation and extremism was the narrative. The truth however was that thier fluidity was a fact and even Obama admitted that having spent half a billion training the FSA, they then defected to Al Qaeda or Daesh with their weapons. HMG and the west at the time was not concerned too much about foreign fighters going to Syria to fight Asad. In fact I wondered at the time at the conflicting messages coming out of these sources as to how we must get rid of Asad by every means, and how this would increase ‘radicalisation’.
    Of course this was before the Russian intervention starting September 2015 when the tide turned. The Russian intervention also exposed the major hypocrisy of how the fight against Daesh was a sham, when Russia showed that there was a constant stream of tankers transporting Syrian and Iraqi oil to Turkey. The bombing of Daesh by the Russians then led to the western scrambling to save face by finally declaring war on Daesh. In fact to this day our government and allies continue to either aid directly militarily, or through other means, the supposedly lesser jihadists factions of Jabhat al Nusra which was the transformation of Al Qaeda.
    This is the context but of course history will either be forgotten or rewritten.

  • Rosemary MacKenzie

    The mess in the Middle East was largely created by the American and British governments. Neither will take responsibilty for their actions, but a nineteen year old who left England at fifteen is expected to pay a huge price probably losing third child as well as her right to UK citizenship. Nineteen is not grown up, and fifteen is certainly not. Shamema Begum is a British subject by birth and should be able to return to the UK, where, if there is evidence, she can be brought before a British court. I’d be willing to bet that if she were a white, middle class Christian girl, she’d be back in the UK already and nobody would be any the wiser.

    • Stonky

      Shamema Begum is a British subject by birth and should be able to return to the UK, where, if there is evidence, she can be brought before a British court…

      She traveled to Syria voluntarily to lend her active support to a bunch of stone-age cultists engaged in wholesale slaughter and acts of bestial depravity, and she stayed there for years. Don’t you think that the Syrians have a right to deal with her that preempts yours?

      And just out of interest, supposing she personally had been actively involved in slaughter, rape, and enslavement during her time in Syria (which is perfectly possible). Exactly what evidence do you expect to find here in Britain about her activities, and how are you proposing to collect it?

  • Dan

    She still supports ISIS. Has publicly said so and that she has no remorse for her support of them. Said she was not really phased by the sight of beheadings of foreigners. Only now that they have been beaten does she wish to return. Were ISIS to still be in a position of strength she would not be asking to return. Should be brought back? Perhaps but if so take her child away to stop indoctrination and imprison her for her actions and words.

  • Sharp Ears

    There is no mention of Labour or anti semitism on the front pages today
    They all go on the splits in the Tory party..

    BBC News – Newspaper headlines: ‘I want to kill off Tory party’

    However Sky News were still spitting out the anti Corbyn stuff earlier in their breakfast programme, Sunrise!, with their political reporter, Tamara Cohen.

    • Sharp Ears

      Tamara Cohen came to Sky News 3 years ago after 7yrs 9mths at the Daily Heil. She has a 2.1 BA degree in history from Oxford.

          • Herbie

            U avin a laff, Abby.

            You’re no. 1 on this board for asking which university people attended, what they studied, which tutor, and public school.

            Floreat Etona etc.

            You’re like Cecil bloody Rhodes.

          • Charles Bostock


            “You’re no. 1 on this board for asking which university people attended, what they studied, which tutor, and public school.”

            Inaccurate, Herbie.

            Some commenters are very keen to tell us how highly educated they are and do like to name drop.

            I tend to ask those questions only in reaction to a poster who calls other posters ignorant (eg, Dungroanin to IrishU) or people who keep drawing our qttention – irrelevantly – to other people’s degrees (Sharp Ears, above).

            Hope that clarifies?

          • Herbie

            “”Some commenters are very keen to tell us how highly educated they are and do like to name drop.”

            I tend to ask those questions only in reaction to a poster who calls other posters ignorant (eg, Dungroanin to IrishU) or people who keep drawing our qttention – irrelevantly – to other people’s degrees (Sharp Ears, above).

            Hope that clarifies?”


            How do you explain your own exultations, for Floreat Etona, and Oxford.

            Both of these are associated with Cecil Rhodes’ Atlanticist dream.

            Ain’t that a bit elitist, like?

    • Glasshopper

      Britain is the least racist country in Europe, and people’s views on this issue have nothing to do with race. There will be plenty of non-white Brits in that 78%, just as there are plenty of non-white Brexiteers.

      And frankly, for someone so Judeo-obsessed, you’re probably best keeping your head down on issues of racism.

  • Charles Bostock

    I get the distinct impression that the Home Secretary is on a hiding to nothing. Philippe Sands as interviewed on BBC4 radio earlier this morning seems to have summed up the legal position and the questions posed by the Home Secretary’s decision rather well. It is probably too much to expect that the HS will reverse his decision and so, given where the young woman and her child find themselves currently, I should expect her legal representatives to get their finger out and launch an immediate legal appeal (and for the tribunal to deal with it with consoderable urgency).

  • Charles Bostock

    Meanwhile, as Labour front bencher Barry Gardiner continues to lament the deficient response to anti-zionisl by the Labour party and in particular its leadership, President Macron of France announces strong action both legislative and other to combat anti-semitism in France.

    Amoung the measures announced is legislation to suppress and sanction hate speech on the internet.

    And judging by the French record on actually implementing its laws criminalising Holocaust denial, if such legislation outlawing hate speech on the internet is passed the French aurthorities and courts will not hesitate to apply it severely.

    You can say what you like about Macron but you can’t fault him on something like this. I wonder if other EU countries will think that the example he and France are setting might be worth copying. .

    • Ken Kenn

      I’ll simplify that for you.

      What Macron is saying is that calling someone a ‘Zionist’ is anti – semitic.

      I don’t like Macron’s government so that makes me anti Catholic then?

      And all Catholics support Macron’s government.

      By the way I don’t like oranges but the very idea that you can make people buy Jaffas is ludicrous.

      Yet it is being attempted in the US.

      It will come to the UK next.

      You will be forced to eat oranges and figs on pain of the sack.

      And if you don’t vote for the Israeli song in Eurovision Song Contest that’s anti semitic too?

    • Clark

      I think the problem would better be dealt with at source. Antisemitism follows from insufficiently critical mainstream coverage of Israel and excessive Israeli influence upon politics, and the routine mainstream demonisation of official enemies.

      More broadly, distrust of mainstream media and the attendant rise in the popularity of conspiracy theories is a symptom of the appalling state of the mainstream media, eg. health journalism is dreadful, and a major cause of the anti-vaccination campaigns.

  • John Macadam

    On this reasoning I hold Indian, Bangladeshi and Thai citizenship which I reckon would come as rather a surprise to the authorities of those countries

    • Old Mark

      Both Indian and Thai citizenship are extremely hard to obtain for persons of European ancestry- can’t speak about Bangladesh, as the country is not exactly on the tourist trail, unlike Goa or Phuket, and the number of citizenship requests there from people of European ancestry since the foundation of the state in 1971 is probably in low double figures or single figures. Unlike the numbers going in the opposite direction, of course.

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