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“Nobody thought we would be allowed to leave”
Who had a power to not let you leave?
Most ridiculous statement!
Pigeon English, what I think I mean, is that almost everyone I know, voted for the U.K. to Leave the E.U. and regain our sovereign status. We are now being branded as The United Kingdom. Almost everyone I know, did not think we would be allowed to leave as Britain is so valuable to the E.U., we gave them status.
Our own Prime minister, David Cameron, was against the U.K. leaving the E.U. Most of Big Buisiness was against us leaving. Most celeberaties, were against us leaving. Most scientists, were against us leaving.
You could say most University educated people were against us leaving, so in a way, it was a “peasants revolt”
or you could say the biggest decision in the history of the U.K. that allowed Democracy to win.
In my area, there was a Big majority for leaving, I think in the North East they had the biggest majority for leaving, this was partly about de-industrialisation and consequent poverty. The Levelling-Up, is targeted at the North East.
Blyth for example is where the HVDC Interconnector comes ashore from Norway.
https://northsealink.com/
There are plans for a monster undersea fertilizer mine.
https://www.northyorkmoors.org.uk/planning/Sirius-Minerals-Polyhalite-Mine-Woodsmith-Mine
Now with added need, as Methane has skyrocketed.
All these elements are geopolitical.
Part of the mechanism for Global Britain, as much as AUKUS, probably more so.
But so much of the U.K.assets are to do with our seas, that is why there is a rapid build up of the Royal Navy.“Emmanuel Macron’s high-handed attitude to Brexit made every step more difficult. Even the French media are now comparing our head of state to Napoleon Bonaparte, suggesting that ‘Napo-Macron’ wants to use sea blockades to ‘starve the English’ into compliance.”
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10066419/NABILA-RAMDANI-threats-Admiral-Macron-shame-country.html
Royal Navy needed more than ever, to defend the U.K. against our”partners” over the other side of the English Channel.Macron is acting like a child who has had his sweets confiscated.
“A common thread in these face-offs is the fact that Mr Macron and his cronies are preparing for a presidential election in April. Mr Macron is determined to win a second five-year term and establish himself as the de facto EU leader after the retirement of German Chancellor Angela Merkel.
As France moves further to the Right, Mr Macron knows he has to attract extreme nationalist voters to defeat rivals such as Marine Le Pen of the National Rally party.
An obvious way of doing this is for ‘Napo-Macron’ to take on his country’s historic enemy at every opportunity, so prepare for Britain to be blamed for every French ill in the coming months. He might not win every battle, but if Mr Macron finds himself back inside the Elysee Palace, his aggression will have served him well – whatever it does for Britain’s relations with one of its closest neighbours.”
Macron thinks he will soon have the U.K. tided over a French barrel.
He ought to remember that The Germans thrashed the French three times, in recent history, it is two hundred years since the British done for Napoleon, the last war between France and England ended in 1815.
Why does he want another war, with his near neighbour, because we left the control of the E.U. of which he wants and expects to be soon crowned Leader of Europe. Yet the French hate the squirt. They despise him.
No, Pigeon English, the U.K. is better off apart from the E.U.It’s called Projection.
You accuse others of what the UK is doing.
Who is pretending of being Churchill? who is sending Royal navy left right and centre? who is mentioning WW2?
who is constantly blaming EU? It’s all the time UK against EUSSR.
The First Sea Lord and Chief of the Naval Staff has been appointed as the new armed forces chief, making him the first sailor to get the top military job in 20 years.
So there you have it, the Royal Navy is now back at the top of the tree.
They control two huge aircraft carriers and the Nuclear buttons.Happy to know that British Empire is back in the game!
Are you parking one Aircraft carrier in La Manche to fight the Frogs and dinghies or to deliver food and petrol to the nation?
With a sailor in command finally Brexit Britain is Safe and ready to rule the world. Step aside Biden, BJ is coming – no pun intended!
Did you finally get some airplanes for Carriers?Even in the linked article past wars were mentioned and obviously Germans.
One of the purposes of the EU was to have friendly co-existence guided by common interest instead of this Brexit Bellicose rhetoric!!
I am happy that Brexit is just giving benefits as promised.
I fully trust BJ and his henchman to turn idle working class (Britain Unchained book) into a well-paid high-productive work force. The rise in prices will be worthwhile and I kind of agree but paying unskilled lazy workers double to get half a job done is very risky. I am sure Brexitears will step in for the country and pick vegetables, slaughter pigs, and nurse their compatriots. At least the army is doing something useful like driving lorries! After all, we have the Royal Navy to protect us with their boats …
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[ Mod: For the record, a recent reply from michael norton was deleted because it contained the phrase “The Frogs are hopping mad!”. He has been warned many times about his xenophobic rhetoric – particularly towards the French, Scots, and Chinese – and he may be suspended for it again soon. ]Following the announcement of the formation of AUKUS, it is important that the First Sea Lord is made top dog of all the Armed services. It does show that the Royal Navy is back in charge of the nation’s protection. If we think about it a bit, this has probably been in the making for the best part of forty years, since the Falklands Conflict, which would not have been possible without the Royal Navy.
Oh, I forgot to say I am pleased the Army is on the way to take control of Britain.
The Navy in control of outside security and the rest of the army in control of internal affairs and deliveries.
PS MN did not inform us about 100 Chinese planes flying into the Taiwan “Air defence zone”.
Taiwan and the Royal Navy did not have the guts to shoot them down – I wonder why?For the avoidance of doubt, I do not hate the French. I have very many times been to France, I have stayed with and engaged with French people. I have French fiends, we have more than once hosted French people in England staying with us.
Multiple sailors on board the USS Connecticut submarine were injured following an incident in international waters, defence officials have revealed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Connecticut_(SSN-22)
On 2 October 2021, Connecticut was damaged after the submarine experienced an underwater collision while maneuvering in the South China Sea. About eleven sailors were injured.
Michael, I have to believe that one of the reasons you read and post on CM’s blog is that you are somewhat mistrusting of the main/maniacal stream media. Don’t you think that a lot of the Anti-Chinese especially but also anti-Russian coverage of late is somewhat bogus and appears to be manufactured similar to the Saslisbury novichok poisonings which you have stated elsewhere you disbelieve? Why are you so keen on AUKUS which represents more unnecessary military build-up and spending, money that probably could do more for ordinary people elsewhere?
ET I do not believe that Russia is in any way a danger to the U.K. The U.S.A. did their best work to break up The Soviet Union, in the end it did break up. Partly as a result of things orchestrated by the U.S.A. but it probably would have broken up one day. Russia is relentlessly tagged by the U.S.A. administration as being up to no good, weekly. I try and follow what happens in Syria. The U.S.A. tried their hardest to break up Syria, which goes against the Ethos of the United Nations. They make up endless lies about Syria and Russia.
Russia did not crush Iraq, U.S.A. did, after stringing along Saddam, their henchman, to go to war with Iran.I think what Russia has done in Syria, is mostly positive. Very slowly Syria is recovering, no thanks to the U.K., France, U.S.A., Australia or NATO. I also suspect that the U.S.A. has tried to have Erdogan removed from Turkey, they do so much disrupting.
However, I do suspect that China poses a clear and present danger, not because they want to convert us to communists but because they are sucking the life out of the planet and a dazzling acceleration, soon, they will have sucked it to desert.
Pigeon English, October 6, 2021 at 21:48,
the U.K. for better or worse has now left the E.U. We may not be the last nation to seek to leave.“The European Commission has warned it will use all its powers against Poland.”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58840076
“On Thursday, Poland’s Constitutional Tribunal ruled that key articles of one of the EU’s primary treaties were incompatible with Polish law, in effect rejecting the principle that EU law has primacy over national legislation in certain judicial areas.”
After the U.K. Referendum and the way the vote went, meaning to leave, this set the way, for others to think about their relationship with the E.U. For years Poland and the U.K. have been friends. Nominally, at least, the U.K. entered the Second World War against Germany, because Germany invaded Poland. No doubt Poles still remember that.
Growing up in England, some of my friends were Poles, whoes families had moved to England because of the war.
There have been a number of changes made to Polish law by the current government of Poland that have raised eyebrows not just in the EU but across the world. The stink of the catholic church hierarchy is all over it. I grew up in Ireland in the 70s-80s, the stink is familiar. One of the issues most problematic is the politicisation of the judiciary and legal system, something people reading CM’s blog should be very aware of. They have effectively banned terminations, made IVF impossible for single people and rolled back anti discriminatory legislation amongst other things. Ireland added to its constitution that the state must do its utmost to protect the right to life of the unborn child in 1983. That didn’t go well and has since been removed but it fucked Ireland up for quite a while.
The principle that EU law has primacy over national legislation kinda has to be so and countries that signed up to the treaties signed up to that. If you are going to set up an internal market you can’t have individual countries deciding how to interpret the regulations because you’d soon have all countries interpreting them for their advantage. Also the principle that EU law has primacy over national legislation relates only to those competencies given to the EU in the treaties. Poland is one of the countries that beneftted most from the free movement principle. If you are going to have free movement of workers then you need laws to protect those workers that apply everywhere.
As soon as any country including UK signs a trade agreement you are giving away part of your sovereignty. It can’t be avoided. As soon as you sign a treaty you do the same. The UK fulfilled its EU treaty obligations (better than most countries I should add) until they left, Poland will have to do the same or leave.
“However, I do suspect that China poses a clear and present danger, not because they want to convert us to communists but because they are sucking the life out of the planet and a dazzling acceleration, soon, they will have sucked it to desert.”
Do you think a Chinese person has as much right to use as much energy as a USA person or an Irish person (Ireland uses more energy per-capita than UK)? What right have we to say to a Chinese person that you can’t have as much energy as we have? USA per-capita energy usage is 4-5 times that of China.
The Royal Australian Navy is set to dump its troubled fleet of European-made MRH 90 Taipan helicopters, replacing them with US-made Seahawks in a deal worth around $1.3 billion.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-09/us-to-sell-12-attack-helicopters-to-australia-aukus-/100526744Seems to be quite a lot of changes going on with AUKUS
Nuclear weapons will avail no one of anything. The world is now utterly interdependent. An internal Pentagon report recently pointed out that the USA was incapable of waging war on China for more than two months because the US military is dependent upon China for manufacturing, among other things, rocket nozzles, integrated circuits and accelerometers.
The best thing the Australian government could do with its shiny new nuclear-electric submarines is moor them permanently and hook their generators into its power grid.
Civilisation’s only way out of its predicament is peace.
Michael, it breaks my heart to see you manipulated by propaganda.
You are falling for the age-old trick of “divide and conquer”.Look. You could very well have posted a quote like this:
– “At the same time,
Kim Yo JongHillary Clinton, thedictator’s sisterPresident’s wife who was elevated to the country’s powerfulState Affairs Commissionsecretary of statelast weekin 2009…”Or, compare this:
– “George Prescott Bush (born April 24, 1976)[1] is an American politician and attorney serving as the commissioner of the Texas General Land Office since 2015. – A fourth-generation elected official as a member of the Bush family, he is the eldest child of former Florida Governor Jeb Bush, nephew of the 43rd President, George W. Bush, grandson of the 41st President, George H. W. Bush, and great-grandson of Connecticut U.S. Senator Prescott Bush. He is a candidate for the Republican nomination in the 2022 Texas Attorney General election.”
Now I shall slightly reword one of your Daily Mail quotes:
– “A common thread in these face-offs is the fact that Mrs May and her cronies are preparing for a general election in June. Mrs May is determined to win a second five-year term and establish herself as the first female Prime Minister since the esteemed Margaret Thatcher, and the woman who freed the UK from the EU.
– As England moves further to the Right, Mrs May knows she has to attract extreme nationalist voters to defeat rivals such as Ed Miliband of the Labour party.
– An obvious way of doing this is for ‘Maggie-May’ to take on her country’s historic enemy at every opportunity, so prepare for France to be blamed for every English ill in the coming months. She might not win every battle, but if Mrs May finds herself back inside Number 10, her aggression will have served her well – whatever it does for Britain’s relations with one of its closest neighbours.”
Michael, power structures are the same throughout history and the world over; they manipulate the masses. It is never the “leaders” who go to fight in wars. They send the ordinary peasants to fight, it is always the ordinary peasants whose homes are bombed to smithereens, whose land is reduced to a radioactive wasteland, whose sons are reduced to a bloody pulp, and whose wives and daughters are raped by “the enemy” whichever side ends up doing the raping or the getting raped.
And propaganda never changes either. The people are equated with those who rule over them – “the French”, “the English”, “the Chinese”, as if the rulers truly represented the interests of the people.
You wrote:
– “For the avoidance of doubt, I do not hate the French. I have very many times been to France, I have stayed with and engaged with French people. I have French fiends, we have more than once hosted French people in England staying with us.”
How, then, can these friends of yours also be your “historic enemy”, as claimed by the Daily Mail ? How can you relish conflict between Paris and Westminster, when that would in fact consist of young men from England in the Royal Navy, and young men from France in the French navy, confronting each other in the English Channel, firing weapons at each other’s vessels, mutilating each other, drowning each other, blasting each other to a bloody pulp?
There has to be a contradiction… but where?
Could it be that the news media is actually just propaganda? Just the way that the rich and powerful manipulate the poor and the powerless?
Michael, I should have explained; I had not read this thread recently. When I returned and reviewed it, I was shocked at some of your ideas that I found here.
On the climate thread you have repeatedly suggested that people should get by with less stuff. But one of the most costly and energy-hungry things that humans do are the military activities and conflict.
The EU was not responsible for the UK’s deindustrialisation; that was caused by keeping the pound “strong” in comparison to the Euro. Imports into the UK became cheap because one pound bought 1.60 Euros, but conversely UK goods became expensive in Europe, because one Euro bought only 62p. This worked to the advantage of finance in the UK, but against manufacturing. The UK’s “strong” currency also encouraged immigration.
How is the UK to cope without guaranteed energy-sharing with Europe? For renewables to work their net has to be cast as widely as possible. UK gas is depleted, coal is irresponsible and you don’t like nuclear.
– – – – –Apologies to moderators and to Pigeon English; these thoughts would be more appropriate on the climate thread, but the comments that led to them are here. These matters are inextricably linked, because one of the main things that governments fight over is energy.
Clark, it is the French Administration, egged on by the French fishermen, who are threatening to close the Channel Tunnel ( something that was constructed by both French peasants and British peasants), they are boasting that they will stop food from Europe into the U.K. They are boating that they will stop French electricity coming from France to the Channel Islands, if they do not get their way. They are threatening the U.K. to stop selling French Electricity to the U.K. Yet it is the French peasants who are building Hinkley Point C for us in Somerset, perhaps they will go on strike?
Boris does not have to win a General Election to remain Prime minister of the United Kingdom but Emmanuel Macron must have a face off for retaining his crown as President of France, next Spring.
This aggression between France and the U.K. only started to reemerge, after our 2016 Referendum. If we had voted to stay in the E.U., this rudeness would not have happened/be happening. This leads me to the conclusion that the leaders of France and some other E.U. countries are very hurt that the U.K. voted to jump ship. What they really do not want is more countries to jump ship.
Democracy cannot exist in the E.U.Yes we in this part of North East Europe should be sharing fuel/electricity, even though the U.K. has left the E.U.
Only a few days ago the new HVDC Interconnector from Norway to Blyth, came on line, mostly this will be Hydroectric produced energy flowing from Norway into England. It is planned that Solar power will flow from Morocco directly to North Devon. We do have an Interconnector with France but the English end burnt out, it will take half a year to fix it.And yes, at present Hinkley Point C is being constructed with Chinese money by French peasants, in Somerset. Watch this space as to how things proceed as we have spats with both China and France.
The irritation MN is that the UK appears to be attempting to back track on the agreements it made and signed relating to the French transitional fishing rights and the NI protocol and doing so publically. As for the fishing rights, it seems again the such a small economic contributor to either country is causing outsized angst. The post-Brexit agreement negotiated with the European Union provided that EU fishermen could continue to fish in certain British waters if they obtained a licence. The licence would be granted if they could prove they were fishing there before. Whether you agree or disagree that that should have been included is not relevant.
I don’t know how credible the French boat’s evidence they were fishing there before is and were I to be adjudicating on the UK’s behalf I’d be pretty damned harsh about that ie. your boat better have pretty incontrovertible evidence or you wouldn’t get a liscense. However, we are not seeing that data. Let Jersey/UK state on what basis they have refused liscenses so we can decide if they had reasonable grounds or not.
The NI protocol is a different, more serious, kettle of fish (:D).
North/South trade is booming post brexit. Irish haulage is using direct ferries to France rather than the UK landbridge with traffic at UK ports previously used by Irish hauliers considerably down (one third of what it was). Again, the UK agreed and signed a treaty knowing this would be the effect and appear to trying to back track. In the case of the NI protocol the USA and congress will not look kindly on any threat to peace nor the threat of a hard (economic) border. In this video on twitter Frost confirms the above and at the end of it states: “That’s one reason why we can’t wait very long to solve this problem because things are already happening.”
The protocol is being attacked not because it doesn’t work, but because it DOES – strengthening north-south economic links.ET
I agree with what you just wrote. My point was that the unpleasantness between the U.K. and France only kicked off, after the 2016 Referendum to Leave won. So Macron is pissed off that we have left the E.U., he is making himself as horrible and stupid as possible, so that he retain the French Presidency. He thinks if he becomes a double President, his next job will be to lead the E.U. onto the Sunny Uplands. But what is not being grasped is the undemocratic attitude of the E.U. Elite, they do not think the British should have been given the choice to walk away.
We will never, ever rejoin the E.U. I have my doubts how long the E.U. will last, I would guess, no more than thirty years.AUKUS
Sikorsky SH-60/MH-60 SeahawkAustralia has ditched the European helicopter programme and gone for the Seahawk.
So, the submarine hunting version that can land and be stowed on warships, folding rotors and folding tail.
This probably mean they aim to buy or construct frigates or destroyers, as well as Nuclear Submarines.
Australia seem to be going Full Metal Jacket.MN, I don’t agree that there was ever a case where the UK (or any other country) would not be “allowed” to leave. The treaty contains a mechanism for a country to leave so they did anticipate the situation. There is definitely regret that the UK has left and people and politicians have opinions as to the merits of leaving or not to which they are entitled. Ultimately it was for the UK electorate and only them to decide.
I don’t agree the unpleasentness kicked off after the referendum just because the UK decided to leave. The fishing rights issue and the common agricultural policy have been causing arguments for years before Brexit was even a consideration. Also, Cameron never thought the UK would vote leave and consequently had no plan for the subsequent negotiations. Having no plan and the novelty of unwinding the previous 40 years of agreements was always going to be difficult and especially as it was the first time it happened. Brexiteers lied about how easy it was going to be and exercised deranged thinking in expecting to have their cake and eat it. The EU was never going to allow business as usual with a third country and why should they? No other trade agreement would or does allow one country to remove itself from obligations whilst at the same time retaining the benefits.
The UK and EU signed an agreement that finalised brexit, presumably both did so in good faith. The NI protocol is working well for NI business, they can sell into UK and into EU and is working as anticipated. Let the UK explain its reasons for declining some fishing boat licenses and let the French explain their objections so the rest of us can make a judgement as to who is acting in good faith or not. I suspect there is a bit of acting in bad faith on both sides.
The EU is being portrayed as the enemy in the DSaily Mail and others. Do you think NAFTA will allow the UK to enjoy the benefits without fulfilling obligations (like bleached chicken)?
Michael:
Oct 10, 10:52 – “This aggression between France and the U.K. only started to reemerge, after our 2016 Referendum.”
It became more apparent after the Brexit referendum, but it had been churning along for decades as a competition between factions of the rich and powerful, and was reflected in the massive, decades-long propaganda campaign in several “British” newspapers – “They“ [the EU] “are discriminating against our pork pies / names of cheeses / names of ice cream / shape of bananas / interfering with our oven gloves” and “They refuse to disperse all the destitute, smelly, dangerous immigrants accumulating at Calais trying to get onto our sovereign soil” – as if us peasants had any sovereignty at all, let alone over the land beneath our feet! Such sovereignty belongs only to the rich and powerful.
I suspect that this inter-elite rivalry had much to do with Finance, especially the City of London as gateway for dark money to the unaccountable tax havens of UK Overseas Territories (UKOTs), British Dependencies etc; a plethora of tiny islands left over from the British Empire. The EU was keener to regulate such finance than was Westminster, the latter always in the grip of The City, the City’s Remembrancer having discretionary but permanent and continuous powers similar to The Speaker in the House of Commons.
Oct 7, 08:46 – ‘You could say […] in a way, it’ [voting for Brexit] ‘was a “peasants revolt”’
But the idea never originated with the common people; why should it? You said yourself, you never had anything against people from France, no objection to them visiting your home or you visiting theirs; building such links is healthy for peace and cooperation. The idea was promoted by certain “news” papers and their websites. And look who seized upon it and championed it – the right-most faction of the Conservative party! Hardly the representatives of the common people.
Oct 10, 10:52 – “Boris does not have to win a General Election to remain Prime minister of the United Kingdom but Emmanuel Macron must have a face off for retaining his crown as President of France, next Spring.”
Yes, this is the situation right now, but my parody of Theresa May as Emmanuel Macron illustrates that elite-versus-elite rivalry is permanent; the participants change but the propaganda remains systematically constant.
Oct 10, 10:52 – “Democracy cannot exist in the E.U.”
This is one of the deceptions promoted by the same “news” papers that had been propagandising for Brexit. It has two prongs; (1) that Westminster democracy works and (2) that EU democracy doesn’t exist. Both are ridiculous exaggerations. There is massive democratic deficit in nearly every so-called democracy; look what happened to Jeremy Corbyn and Bernie Sanders. And every EU country has some form of inadequate democracy – the EU Constitution doesn’t even permit a country to join or remain in the EU unless it is “democratic”, ie. it makes some pretence at democracy like the UK and US do.
When in the EU all UK voters could vote in EU elections. Most never bothered, except towards the end when, again encouraged by the pro-aggression media propaganda, many voted for UKIP MEPs. Voters never bothered because most were barely aware – most of “our” “news”papers treated EU elections as a joke if they bothered to mention them at all; they never even named or interviewed our candidates – propaganda by omission.
– – – – – – – –Michael, you clearly appreciate Craig’s opinions regarding, for instance, Russia and Syria. I think you should pay more attention to what he has written about Westminster’s relationship with the EU. Please, please carefully read the following posts of his, and consider and introspect upon them; compare them with the attitudes you’ve been projecting on this thread:
Johnson Intended to Break the Withdrawal Agreement Even Before He Signed It
Channel Islands Fisheries and Abuse by Tory Jingoism
Macron is no angel; very few of the ruling classes behave as truly decent people, because when a decent, caring, reasonable person is likely to gain power, as Corbyn was, the media unite to denigrate them. But these problems are not all of Macron’s making; they’ve been stirred by the propaganda industry for decades. It takes two to tango, and a crowd to brawl. If our friends behaved as aggressively as most politicians we’d dismiss them as undesirable and break off the friendship.
ET October 10, 2021 at 15:29
When David Cameron and Nick Clegg were joined at the hip in The Rose Garden, everything was lovely, as far as most of the Gravy Trainers were concerned (see how much money they have both made, since leaving office, almost as much as that weasel Tony Blair). Then after five years of joined-at-the-hip, the British Electorate knew Clegg was also a lying weasel, so they threw the LibDem scumbags out, bag and baggage. However, this moved to the next shift, our Dave had foolishly made a commitment to a Referendum, in the unlikely event of him winning hands down, this was a turn up for the books. He kept his word but only after he had gone cap-in-hand to the E.U. Elite who told him to fuck right off. That was the fucking arrogance of the E.U. Elite, they hate Democracy, they detest it. How very dare the peasants have a voice.
The rest as they say, is history.Michael norton, Oct 10, 18:44 – What’s this “Rose Garden”?
“Rose Garden” is the garden in 10 Downing Street
“He kept his word but only after he had gone cap-in-hand to the E.U. Elite who told him to fuck right off. That was the fucking arrogance of the E.U. Elite, they hate Democracy, they detest it”
Did he really get that shafted? I don’t really think so though now that you have brought it up I seem to remember that was how it was reported in the news. I had to go and search to remember it in detail but The guardian’s and Politico’s articles give what I think are good summaries. He got a lot of what he wanted from my reading of it.
There is a vehemence in your statement that I just don’t get MN. MEP’s are elected in all member states though as Clark said above little attention is paid to those elections by media in most countries. The commission is made up of people proposed by the member state’s governments and the council of ministers (ministers of member states) being the prime legislative body. If you were to conceive of a body similar to the EU how would you set it up? Most power rests with member states’ governments.
For amusement I thought some of the cartoons on some of this weeks events were good. I liked the one with the statute of liberty……..off topic I know but hey-ho.
ET
I actually think the coalition formed by the Conservative Party and the LibDem Party was fairly positive for the U.K.The U.K. had been thinking about a Referendum on leaving or staying in the E.U. for some years. I doubt either Nick Clegg or David Cameron had any real intentions of allowing a Referendum on Brexit. Dave Cameron probably would have rather had another five years of Coalition, rather than rabid Conservatives demanding the Referendum.
If the E.U. had been more respectful to Dave, more giving, more reasonable, maybe, we would not be where we now are.
They were not respectful, they were not giving and they were not reasonable, the mask had slipped. The people of the U.K. began to be awakened from their soporific period. Most of the clever people were for staying in, most ordinary working people were for getting out. This is because wages for ordinary people had been kept low for quite a while.
“Freedom of Movement”
The U.K. had more or less been de-industrialised. I am not sure I know why but I suspect “Freedom of Movement” played its part by allowing bosses to employ Eastern Europeans and keep wages lower than they would have been, if there had not been “Freedom of Movement”
I think being in a club for forty years was probably more than enough.
We will never, ever go back.“If the E.U. had been more respectful to Dave, more giving, more reasonable, maybe, we would not be where we now are.”
When you carefully read the amendments the EU made he actually got most of what he had asked for MN, in my opinion from re-reading it now with some hindsight. I’m not sure how you think they were disrespectful. I suspect what happened is that the pro-brexit media presented it that way. In what way do you think they ought to have been more respectful or more giving or more reasonable? That is a genuine question not just rhetorical.
Something else I remember now is that the UK could have kept the new members citizens out of the UK’s labour market for 7 years under what was then existing EU treaty law but declined to do so.
“This is because wages for ordinary people had been kept low for quite a while.”
Was it the EU or UK government responsible for that? I suspect very much it was more the UK government. Having worked in the NHS for 30 years MN I can assure you it wasn’t the EU who have messed it up it has been sucessive UK governments. (not that I was against all the reforms, any government has to ensure it gets value for money from what it spends)
I’m gonna have to get my eyes tested if these captcha things get any more difficult 🙂
M N @ 79252
Yes East Europeans are attracted buy low wages in UK.
All of them are unskilled!( from fruit pickers nurses HVG drivers Butchers scientist’s bankers etc.) Or maybe British Empire needs skilled workers to fill up gaps?
Uk was attractive country but now Ireland is.
Ireland is doing much better than England in all parameters!!!!!!MN 79252
“The U.K. had more or less been de-industrialised. I am not sure I know why but I suspect “Freedom of Movement” played its part by allowing bosses to employ Eastern Europeans and keep wages lower than they would have been, if there had not been “Freedom of Movement”
So high wages and idle working class would have saved UK manufacturing industry.?
When did Poland join EU?
“Ireland is doing much better than England in all parameters!!!!!!”
I would hold off counting chickens for now. Ireland’s national debt is enormous close to 250 billion euro and the multi-nationals there have an outsized influence on GDP etc. With the new global tax rates things might become a little unstuck. There is till a lot of anti-east european sentiment in Ireland as indeed other immigrants which drives me mad when I go home and hear it. You’d almost think the Irish didn’t do exactly the same thing for hundreds of years i.e. emigrate. The housing situation in Ireland is shocking wth enormous rents and prices.
Michael, thanks for the clarification.
– “I doubt either Nick Clegg or David Cameron had any real intentions of allowing a Referendum on Brexit”
The EU referendum was Cameron’s publicity stunt, which he assumed would finally silence the “rabid Conservatives” you mentioned. It backfired, but only just. Far too many people thought that ‘Remain’ was a foregone conclusion; many of these were so sure that they didn’t even bother to vote.
I can tell it was a publicity stunt because there was no plan. You can’t just pull out of a massive trading bloc without a plan. ‘Remain’ obviously didn’t need a plan. ‘Leave’ was entirely undefined.
– “The U.K. had more or less been de-industrialised. I am not sure I know why…”
I see two major reasons. Thatcher started the de-industrialisation to destroy the power of the trades unions. Globalisation continued the process, because manufacturing for multinationals is far cheaper in countries with less regulation, lower wages and poorer working conditions.
Freedom of movement played its part but that could have been addressed, both as ET mentioned, and by convergence between the value of the Pound and the Euro. The fact that it wasn’t is because employers always want to pay lower wages, and since the ascendency of neoliberalism, government consistently sides with employers over employees.
One thing that was very wrong with the UK’s place in the EU was that the UK opted out of many EU worker protections such as the Working Time Directive. The EU is neoliberal, but Westminster is even more so; that is one reason I voted ‘Remain’. Another is that membership of the EU imparted some protection to the UK against the US and its neoliberal corporatism. A third is that there was never any plan for ‘Leave’, such that ‘Leave’ held massive potential for disaster. That disaster could arrive very soon, with no UK gas storage and the termination of EU treaty obligations to supply gas and electricity; in fact it has already started.
I had other reasons to vote ‘Remain’ too. I had spent a little time in the mainland EU, and had seen that most things are done rather better over there. I had travelled across the open borders, seen the cultural integration, experienced the relaxed attitude. I have two friends in German/English families, and I used to have a French/US girlfriend. Jamie’s festival had a lot of volunteers from the EU due to a cross-cultural initiative organisation.
I have grave criticisms of the EU as well; what the EU bank did to democracy in Greece, and EU support for the Spanish government’s violence against the Catalan referendum voters.
Such a complex set of issues to have to make a yes/no/abstain choice about. But ganging up with the US and forcing Australia to join a confrontation against China is a worse outcome than I ever expected.
Nowadays most of Europe speaks English so with poor English and no knowledge of local language you can get a job in any other EU country like Germany, Nederland, Scandinavia etc.! 30 years ago without speaking Danish was nearly impossible to get a job but now is not as “bad”.
“UK opted out of many EU worker protections such as the Working Time Directive”
Actually Clark, they didn’t opt out of the EWTD. In fact they implemented it much more vigorously and rigorously than most including Ireland. I did my last continuous onsite 48 hour shift in 2009, thank God. Colleagues in Ireland had to wait years more for that to happen. In fairness to the UK, when they were in the EU they were conscientious about implementing the legislative changes required. In Ireland we had to have a referendum about everything every six months.
The fact is the EU was blamed for a lot of stuff that was the fault of globalisation and multi nationals moving manufacturing to where it was cheaper in order to maximise profit. Even Mr.Dyson, a staunch supporter of brexit decided to move his manufacturing out of UK. Sadl;y for the UK leaving the EU is not going to correct those issues and will probably exacerbate them.
It came to mind that one of the things that pissed off the Brits was the human rights stuff and one example was the mandatory allowing of prisoners to vote. Personally, I think that is daft for your standard axe wielding mass murderer but do people thing Craig Murray should be denied a vote? Makes one think innit?
