Jack Straw Lied To Parliament

by craig on November 17, 2009 8:33 am in Rendition

The documents I obtained under the Freedon of Information Act yesterday are irrefutable evidence that Jack Straw lied to the parliamentary inquiry into extraordinary rendition. This is what Straw said:

I set out the British Government’s position on this issue on a number of occasions, including in evidence both here and to the Intelligence and Security Committee. I wrote a pretty detailed letter to a constituent of mine back in June, setting out our position. As I said there, there are no circumstances in which British officials use torture, nor any question of the British Government seeking to justify the use of torture. Again, the British Government, including the terrorist and security agencies, has never used torture for any purpose including for information, nor would we instigate or connive with others in doing so. People have to make their own judgment whether they think I am being accurate or not.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmfaff/573/5102405.htm

Yet all the time he had been personally directing a secret policy of using, justifying and conniving with torture, as these documents prove. I provide here a brief transcript with notes for those having difficulty understanding Civil Service jargon. :Deletions are by government censors.

My notes are in bold.

Download file

TRANSCRIPT

Classification redacted

From: Linda Duffield (Director, Wider Europe, Foreign and Commonwealth Office)

Date: 10 March 2003

Reference: 1

To PUS (Permanent Under Secretary, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Sir Michael Jay now Lord Jay)

cc: (Sir) Michael Wood, Legal Adviser

Matthew Kidd (Position redacted – representing MI6)

SUBJECT: UZBEKISTAN; INTELLIGENCE POSSIBLY OBTAINED UNDER TORTURE

1. Michael Wood, Matthew Kidd and I had a meeting with Craig Murray (Me, British Ambassador to Tashkent) to discuss his telegram (Tashkent Telno Misc 01). (Detail of telegram deleted. In it I complained that we regularly receive material from the CIA, got from the Uzbek secret services, obtained by torture.) I said you had asked me to discuss this with Craig personally in view of the sensitive nature of the issues involved.

2. Craig said his concerns had been prompted by a presentation to the Uzbek authorities by Professor Korff (OSCE Adviser) on the UN Convention on Torture. Craig said that his understanding was that it was also an offence under the Convention to receive or to possess information obtained under torture. He asked for clarification on this. Michael Wood replied that he did not believe that possession of information was in itself an offence, but undertook to re-read the Convention and to ensure that Craig had a reply on this particular point.

3. I gave Craig a copy of your revised draft telegram (attached) and took him through this. I said that he was right to raise with you and Ministers (Jack Straw) his concerns about important legal and moral issues. We took these very seriously and gave a great deal of thought to such issues ourselves. There were difficult ethical and moral issues involved and at times difficult judgements had to be made weighing one clutch of “moral issues” against another. It was not always easy for people in post (embassies) to see and appreciate the broader picture, eg piecing together intelligence material from different sources in the global fight against terrorism. But that did not mean we took their concerns any less lightly.

4. (Whole paragraph deleted – this may have related to my querying of the accuracy of the CIA torture material).

5. After Michael Wood and Matthew Kidd had left, Craig and I had a general discussion about the human rights situation in Uzbekistan and the difficulties of pushing for a Resolution in Geneva, which we both agreed was important. (Section about US administation supporting Karimov in UN deleted)

CONCLUSION

6. In conclusion, Craig said that he was grateful for the decision to discuss these issues with me personally. At the end of the day he accepted, as a public servant, that these were decisions for Ministers to take, whether he agreed with them or not. If it ever reached the stage where he could not accept such a decision, then the right thing to do would be to request a move. But he was certainly not there yet. He had fed in his views. You and Ministers had decided how to handle this question. He accepted that and would now go back to Tashkent and “Get on with the job”.

7. I think it was right to see him. I am not sure this is the end of the issue (or correspondence), but it was a frank and amicable discussion and Craig appears to be making efforts to balance his work on human rights with other FCO objectives. We shall, of course, be reviewing these again once he has produced his post objectives for the upcoming year.

Signed

Linda Duffield

Director Wider Europe

Then Comes the Endorsement from Jack Straw:

Download file

Linda Duffield

UZBEKISTAN

Last night the Foreign Secretary (Jack Straw) read a copy of your minute of 10 March reporting your conversation (in the company of Michael Wood and Matthew Kidd) with Craig Murray.

The Foregin Secretary agrees with the PUS that you handled this very well. He has asked me to thank you.

Signed

Simon McDonald

(Assistant Private Secretary to Jack Straw)

Does anybody wish to now argue that Jack Straw told parliament the truth when he said two years later – when asked specifically about my account that hese events had happened

It is Mr Murray’s opinion. Mr Murray, as you may know, stood in my constituency. He got fewer votes than the British National Party, and notwithstanding the fact that he assured the widest possible audience within the constituency to his views about use of torture. I set out the British Government’s position on this issue on a number of occasions, including in evidence both here and to the Intelligence and Security Committee. I wrote a pretty detailed letter to a constituent of mine back in June, setting out our position. As I said there, there are no circumstances in which British officials use torture, nor any question of the British Government seeking to justify the use of torture. Again, the British Government, including the terrorist and security agencies, has never used torture for any purpose including for information, nor would we instigate or connive with others in doing so. People have to make their own judgment whether they think I am being accurate or not.

I have highlighted the bits that are plain lies to parliament in view of the above.

Any argument?

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmfaff/573/5102405.htm

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121 Comments

  1. No argument from me! As per my comment on yesterday’s post, I wonder now how the wheels of justice can be oiled a little bit? I suggested that Jack Straw could be extradited to Spain, a la Pinochet, but I should imagine the chances are slim. (In the same vein, George Monbiot of the Guardian constructed an interesting argument that it would be desirable to have war criminal Blair become president of the EU Council. Why? Because he would be obliged to travel to countries who might be willing to prosecute him over Iraq.)

    One could also approach the police, but what are the odds of a set of bobbies arresting Straw, or the likelihood of the CPS agreeing to take it up? “Not in the public interest”, I should think they would say!

    Failing that, I wonder if a private prosecution of Straw is viable? It would require a bale of money, but if a proper organisation were to be set up dedicated to his prosecution, and donations were to be sought, I could imagine quite a few people would be inclined to contribute. He’s not well liked, you know!

    I wonder if we could get the input of a human rights lawyer here too. Perhaps someone with experience in that area might speculate how this fresh evidence changes the chances of bringing this to public trial. Furthermore, is there a precedent for deliberately breaking UNCAT rules, and what sort of sanctions could be reasonably be applied?

  2. Great news.Perhaps he can be impeached as Justice Secretary asap on this evidence alone?That might be enough to also revert the absurd secret inquests bill that he managed to force through parliament?

  3. Craig

    How much is a one way ticket to the “International Criminal Court in The Hague”?.

  4. Craig

    Not just Jack Straw from the list of names above. They knew and should have come forward to tell the truth.

  5. I can’t see any of the self-styled members of the international community being arrested for their crimes.

    The closest it ever got to that was when that Israeli general was tipped off, by our peace loving spooks no doubt:

    “Major-General Doron Almog avoided arrest in September 2005 after he was tipped off that officers planned to detain him on landing at Heathrow airport.

    He refused to leave his El Al flight, and remained on board for two hours before returning to Israel.

    Leaked documents show police did not board the plane to detain him at the airport because they were worried about the dangers of an armed confrontation.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/why-israeli-general-avoided-heathrow-arrest-784147.html

    According to last night’s Dispatches programme from Peter Oborne, about 80% of prospective Tory MPs are in the pay of right wing Israeli lobby groups.

    Hard to believe, but it looks like the Tories will be even worse in following the disastous neocon agenda than even the Blair was.

  6. I take it Clarke Willmott will arrive in a tank next. With a couple of Tornados by way of escort.

  7. PS Aren’t blogs great?

  8. On Sunday morning on Radio 4 I heard a vivid description of everyday, co-ordinated abuse by British troops, by officers and ordinary soldiers in groups of up to one hundred, in Basra. The Iraqi man interviewed said that they had not felt safe to make these complaints against them while they were still in control of the area. This was followed by a blase whitewash by Ian Rimmel who said that a tiny minority of British troops had behaved badly.

    New Labour always lies about this war, abuse and torture. It’s what they do.

  9. “According to last night’s Dispatches programme from Peter Oborne, about 80% of prospective Tory MPs are in the pay of right wing Israeli lobby groups.”

    In case you missed it…

    “Dispatches / Dispatches: Inside Britain’s Israel Lobby”…

    http://tinyurl.com/ylrnv5x

  10. Not being as bright as your other blog readers I can’t see the exact sentence where torture is explicitly justified, or it is admitted the British connive in the use of it.

    Perhaps if the content of your telegram was included?

    If your telegram is not included then it’s still your word against theirs isn’t it?

    BTW I think I’d take your word every time in this situation, I’m just thinking about proof.

  11. Brian,

    I don’t see any other construction you can put on the conversation. What else do you think we might have been talking about, and why?

  12. A revealing insight into how things work in the FCO.

    This piece is interesting and goes to the root of the problem:

    “….Craig appears to be making efforts to balance his work on human rights with other FCO objectives.”

    I assume from that that part of your job description from the FCO was to monitor and indeed report human rights abuses?

    This would cover the FCO in terms of their international human rights obligations. If, for example, you failed to report human rights abuses they could discipline you for that too, if they were so minded.

    But in your posting it’s quite clear that they want you to favour these “other FCO objectives” over human rights concerns.

    This is an organisation that has covered itself on both fronts, leaving the individual decision up to the person in post. You’re supposed to know what they want you to concentrate on without them having to tell you, but if it all goes wrong they’re covered either way as an organisation.

    It’s not uncommon today for individuals to find themselves working in situations where the publicly stated policy objectives of the organisation are mutually contradictory and the organisation places all the risk on the person in post to, both fulfill the unstated interests of the organisation, but also take the rap if it all goes wrong.

  13. Craig

    I believe your version, but I don’t think it’s proven.

    Might there not be reasonable doubt that you were perhaps talking about the issue in principle, rather than about specific instances of torture intelligence?

  14. Brian

    Well, you have the heading of the minute for one thing. You also have the probability. Why would you fly back your ambassador from Uzbekistan for a theoretical discussion about the philosophy of torture? And why would Jack Straw closely be following such a theoretical discussion? I think you are clutching at absurdities.

  15. Further to last comment, I think it is absolutely plain in para 3 tht Linda Duffield is talking about actual intelligence amterial.

  16. The distinction between justifying the use of torture, and justifying the acceptance of information from a third party that may well have been obtained by torture, is similar to that between theft and the receipt of probably stolen goods.

    The distinction between conniving at torture in the sense of collaboration, e.g. asking torturers to extract answers to specific questions, and the acceptance of information from a third party that may well have been obtained by torture but was not provided in response to such collaboration, is similar to that between being an accomplice to theft, and the receipt of receiving probably stolen goods.

    So Jack Straw’s protests could be compared to those of a fence saying ‘I am not a thief, nor am I ever an accomplice to burglars.’

  17. George, thanks for the Dispatches link. That was excellent, and stood up to the Israeli lobby surprisingly well. Rusbridger, who to be honest I don’t think much of due to his non-cooperation with Media Lens, looked absolutely petrified!

  18. I don’t think much of Rusbridger because he’s a lousy editor and paid oodles more than ne’s worth.

  19. It didn’t, but what if your redacted telegram said…

    “Our government does not connive in, condone or employ the use of torture, but given the conclusions of Professor Korff I’m concerned that although as an entity the British government does not use information gained from such practices the fact that the provenance of some intelligence may be unknown leaves HMG open to unpleasant accusations. Furthermore what might be the possible implications for HMG of individual officials from whatever department having knowledge of illegal acts carried out in intelligence gathering? etc…”

    Might not then the meeting be justified and everyone in the clear?

  20. Brian

    No. It is unthinkable that they would recall an Ambassador to discuss that sort of woolly nonsense.

    Furthermore, Linda Duffield’s responses at para 3 would not then make any sense – if the intelligence was not from torture, why would its use have “difficult ethical and moral issues involved and at times difficult judgements had to be made weighing one clutch of “moral issues” against another.”

  21. I believe that English law has historically treated the issue of receiving stolen goods more seriously than the actual theft. I can think of several good reasons for this.

    Tony

  22. Take your point re: the Ambassador, although if I was looking to cover my tracks I’d be sending Ambassadors hither and thither to discuss such woolly nonsense as fast as I could. It could be a sign of just how seriously we take these issues.

    As far as para 3 is concerned would this not make sense if you were using intelligence where the method of obtainment was unknown or deliberately not revealed/requested. This would certainly entail moral issues while perhaps not being deliberate connivance with torture.

  23. Just thinking about those other posts concerning the deaths of John Smith, Robin Cook, David Kelly et al., but thinking also about the almost thoroughly international agenda of Blair. His main domestic agenda seemed to be concerned primarily with increasing the power of state agencies, to an extent unprecedented in modern British history.

    No matter what way you look at it, there’s been at lot of very weird and dodgy stuff going on around Blair’s premiership.

    One thing that’s rarely mentioned in connection with John Smith is that Smith disliked Mandelson, to put it mildly. He removed Mandelson from the inner circle of advisors. In a Smith premiership Mandy would have been a nobody.

    It’s understandable of course, why an honest plain speaking Scot like Smith would dislike the sleazy ways of a Mandelson, but perhaps Smith knew more than is obvious.

    When Blair won the premiership there was a newspaper report that Mandy had immediately headed over to Hillsborough House in N Ireland to check through all the secret documents. It wasn’t his brief. However, NI had been the touchstone of spook affairs for quite some time.

    Wonder what he was looking for, and why.

    The answers lie always in the past.

  24. Jon

    This link goes with the dispatches link…

    http://tinyurl.com/ya78hmb

  25. Craig, I entirely sympathise with and support you in pusuing this issue, but I do sometimes wonder why someone who has worked in the diplomatic sevice is so gobsmacked that their stock-in-trade is casuistry. To an outsider it seems par for the course.

  26. No arguments at all Craig.

    It’s crystsal clear.

    Good work and thank you.

  27. There is a story about a slave who bit his master when he was being beaten. The master tells the crowd,’ Look what savages these people are!’ The thing that I find most deceitful about Jack Straw et al is the underlying assumption that anything anybody else does is a crime while everything we do is done entirely innocently. This is Alice Through the Looking Glass justice.

    This is a question about international law and we are discussing it as if it is merely in a court of democratic public opinion. The FCO and Jack Straw’s intentions were, either A: ‘the interests of UK citizens override the interests of foreigners’. Or B: ‘the interests of the UK as nation are not well served by torture’. It is perfectly clear from these documents that their intentions were to implement A. ‘Our interests override the interests of foreigners’ while maintaining a public facade of B, ‘It doesn’t look good to the outside world.’ As ever, our intelligence is being insulted by spin doctors in power. I would sentence New Labour to Hard Labour for connivance in torture.

  28. All the main players,as usual,are jews (blair,brown,smith and craig are crypto jews,or what used to be known as “marranos” in 15th century spain.You can add the Windsor rabble to the list too.AKA “new christians”)

  29. Grossly misleading statements by Straw, yes. Plain outright lies, well, that’s not so clear.

    When Straw says he “would not instigate or connive with others” (in using torture), what I think he means is “Technically I’m in the clear, as long as you can’t actually prove that we Brits have actively gone out and done it ourselves, or actively encouraged someone else to do it for us. Sure, we get loads of information obtained under torture. But as long as we don’t do any worse than turn a blind eye to it happening, we’re not responsible for the torture.”

    What worries me is that lots of ordinary people will sympathise with Straw. They will say “If these are the guys who are bombing the Underground, then your casuistry is only reasonable. We can’t afford high moral standards when we’re dealing with terrorist killers.”

    The answer to that of course – and I’ve heard you give it, Craig – is that most of the people who get tortured are just innocent fall-guys who get picked up by the police in a police state, and shown off so that the police can prove how “effective” they are. One reason why Straw ought to be opposed to torture is that it produces unreliable evidence, pulls in the wrong people, and isn’t worth the money that’s spent on it!

  30. David Allen,

    What do you think about Peter Power then? In case you don’t remember – on the day of the London Bombings – he rushed to the BBC – and said that he was conducting a terror exercise, at the very same locations and at the very same time as the explosions went off.

    Personally, I thought he was trying to cover his own arse – cos he couldn’t believe it.

    Now I do realise that co-incidencies happen – even quite amazing co-incidencies…

    But a similar terror exercise was taking place on 9/11…(“Is this real-world or exercise?”)

    I can’t be bothered finding links and posting them – but they are very easy to find using a search engine – and in no way can they be classified as “conspiracy theory”. You can classify them as co-incidence theory if you like.

    Most people simply do not want to know, because the implications – which are rapidly turning into reality are too horrendous to contemplate.

    Despite the fact that we have illegally invaded other countries and killed and maimed literally Millions of innocent people, tribal psychology dictates that most people have to believe – that the real evil came from another tribe, and that our tribe is good and honourable and simply defending itself.

    We can’t face the evil within our own culture. It’s like discovering your father is a Mass- Murderer – a Serial Killer. “No it Must be someone else”, even though he keeps coming home covered with blood and says he has been working with his mate down in the local butchers. You daren’t ask the butcher, if he knows you Dad, because you are frightened of what you know he will say.

    Tony

  31. Alfred Burdett

    17 Nov, 2009 - 8:06 pm

    Perhaps my grasp of English is inadequate, but I do not see Jack Straw being forced to resign his seat in Parliament on the basis of Paragraph 3 of the above-quoted memo from Linda Duffield to PUS.

    The wording seems hopelessly (and no doubt deliberately) vague with little meaning for the average person, and thus of little significance either legally or politically. No wonder Straw congratulated the author.

    However, it seems to me that Jack Straw’s statement to Parliament that

    “… the British Government, including the terrorist and security agencies, has never used torture for any purpose including for information, nor would we instigate or connive with others in doing so.”

    is demonstrably false, on two grounds.

    First, the numerous reports of torture by British forces in Iraq (e.g., http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/6567529/Iraq-Investigation-into-new-claims-of-torture-by-British-soldiers.html) appear to refute the claim; although I suppose no investigation has been conducted or would be tolerated that established direct government responsibility for such acts.

    Second, and more significantly, if connivance means “to give aid to wrongdoing by forbearing to act or speak,” Straw’s statement appears demonstrably false.

    I believe that your campaign against torture and connivance at torture, based on your personal knowledge of torture in Uzbekistan is much to be admired. Yet it seems pointless to bemoan the cost to your career. The issue was whether you wished to pursue your career by compromising your moral standards or uphold your beliefs at a personal cost. You did the latter, as many might not have. Well done. Now the thing is to make the best of your present situation, which is most easily done without regret for past decisions that, given your personality and the circumstances (i.e., crooked lying bastard as Foreign Secretary, etc.), were inevitable.

  32. “December 2002 visit”

    “With regard to torture, the State Department cited the Uzbek

    government’s “adequate cooperation” with the U.N. Special

    Rapporteur on Torture Theo van Boven during his December 2002

    visit as evidence that the government “has become more willing to

    discuss torture.” In fact, Mr. van Boven has made clear that he

    did not receive adequate cooperation. Moreover, the Uzbek

    government has taken no serious steps to implement his

    recommendations for ending torture.”…

    http://tinyurl.com/ycedxjh

    The above letter…”Linda Duffield 10 March 2003″ about…”Craig appears to be making efforts to balance his work on human rights with other FCO objectives.”

    To even think that torture was NOT a major talking point in the above is an impossibility. Torture and Uzbekistan and other countries were big talking points at that time 2002/2003…

    tinyurl.com/yedva34

  33. “MI5 and MI6 are currently calling for evidence of collusion with torture to be concealed even from lawyers for Binyam Mohamed in his damages claim. It is the first time the government has demanded such secrecy in a civil case.”

    [Article entitled

    “Ex-MI5 agent in memoirs battle sues newspaper for naming him”]

    Guardian

    http://tinyurl.com/ybec7dz

  34. Tony,

    “We can’t face the evil within our own culture.”

    Well, you’ve certainly persuaded me to think hard about my own motives in making the posting I made above. But I don’t think I’m really into denialism.

    There is a potential for evil in any culture. There is evil in Islamic societies, there is evil in Western societies. There can be evil inspired by religious hatred, and there can be evil associated with secular creeds, like Stalinism or Nazism.

    There are differences, though. US Christian zealots tend to go in for loud bombast, outright blatant lies, and taking pride in doing their own dirty work like Abu Ghraib. Brits like Jack Straw have a different style. They shy away from telling direct lies. They let someone else do all the dirty work. They might occasionally be a little better behaved, but they are a great deal more hypocritical.

    US cold warriors scream hatred at “liberals”. By contrast, UK cold warriors often cosy up to genuine liberals, and try to camouflage themselves alongside them!

    Why bother analysing these distinctions, if they’re all fundamentally similar b*st*rds? Well, “know your enemy”, I guess.

    As others have said, to claim that Straw’s remarks are blatant lies is a slight overstatement. To point out the sickening hypocrisy and also the sheer incompetence of the NuLabour position on torture should be a more effective line of attack.

  35. You are delusional. You make the sweeping statement that eveyone involved is Jewish, then list a lot of people none of whom are, to my knowledge, Jewish, then explain away this inconvenient fact by calling them Crypto-Jews.

    I am not deleitng your silly racist assertions only because they are so pathetic.

  36. I don’t think humans are intrinsically evil. Quite the reverse. I think 95% of humans are intrinsically good, in all cultures all over the World. The vast majority of people are honest. They do not steal goods on open display.

    But a small percentage of humans are intrinsically evil. There have been some detailed studies on this, that make convincing reading. e.g. Ponerology: The Study of Evil ponerology.com by Andrew Lobaczewski and The Sociopath Next Door, by Martha Stout

    Both identify “around 4% of humans with undetected mental disorder, the chief symptom of which is that that person possesses no conscience. He or she has no ability whatsoever to feel shame, guilt, or remorse. They could be your colleague, your neighbour and they can do literally anything at all and feel absolutely no guilt.

    How do we recognize the remorseless? One of their chief characteristics is a kind of glow or charisma that makes sociopaths more charming or interesting than the other people around them. They’re more spontaneous, more intense, more complex, or even sexier than everyone else, making them tricky to identify and leaving us easily seduced. Fundamentally, sociopaths are different because they cannot love. Sociopaths learn early on to show sham emotion, but underneath they are indifferent to others’ suffering. They live to dominate and thrill to win.”

    Such people often end up in positions of power throughout all aspects of society, because they are totally ruthless.

    Society changes drip by drip. It’s a gradual morphing. Germans are certainly no more evil or less intelligent than any other nation, but they ended up in a Nazi dictatorship under Hitler – shipping Millions of people to Death Camps for extermination – and this was only 70 years ago.

    There are multiple similar examples throughout human history.

    Because of the gradual nature of such change, most people are completely unaware of it happenning, or unaware of the extent to which it is happenning.

    Through a gradual process of moral decay, they themselves can get sucked into a position of behaving like a dictatorial fascist, even if they have such a minor job as a parking attendent or a dustman. They enjoy their power and become addicted to it. Instead of helping people and doing their best to provide the service that they are paid to do, they can make life a misery for everyone they come in contact with and spark completely unnecessary aggression.

    Human nature is such that people learn from example of those perceived to be in authority. Children learn from their parents. If the parents act in a moral fashion, displaying love, honesty and compassion, then its highly probable that their Children will behave in a similar way.

    But on a similar, but more widespread level, people learn behaviour from their leaders – be it in school, work or Government.

    We have a very major problem at the moment, because people are recognising that their leaders are incredibly selfish, evil, corrupt and actually start illegal wars and kill and dismember Millions of innocent people.

    This moral decay inevitably spreads throughout much of civil society, because this behaviour is subconsciously learnt.

    Our politicians set a most appalling example.

    So what can we do? The result of such moral decay almost always inevitably leads to the complete destruction of the society both from within, and externally from the enemies it creates.

    The only real solutions that I suggest to halt this evil is the Law. But the Law must be applied equally throughout all of society. No one can be above the Law. Not Prime Ministers, Presidents or Extremely Rich and Powerful Bankers.

    But Collapse does seem far more likely than reform, and it is likely to be extremely horrible for everyone.

    And I don’t actually buy this Global Warming, Energy Shortages or much of the rest of Popular Hysteria. Sure the human race is facing Multiple Problems, but all these problems can be resolved, if they are tackled in an honest, sensible and fair way, using objective analysis and science, technology and education. At the moment, hardly anyone is actually telling the truth about anything.

    Tony

  37. Carlyle Moulton

    18 Nov, 2009 - 11:53 am

    The word “evil” means characteristic of people who are not like us. The vast majority of human beings will see the same actions as good and justified or evil and unjustified depending on how they classify the doers and the victims in terms of “Us and Them”.

  38. Carlyle Moulton

    18 Nov, 2009 - 12:07 pm

    The word “evil” means characteristic of people who are not like us. The vast majority of human beings will see the same actions as good and justified or evil and unjustified depending on how they classify the doers and the victims in terms of “Us and Them”.

  39. Carlyle Moulton

    18 Nov, 2009 - 12:09 pm

    What does it mean when someone raises the cry of “Politically Correct”.

    It means that someone who is certainly an idiot and is definitely a traitor to his race or nation has said something or done something that implies that a member of species homo sapiens sapiens who is not human in the sense of being entitled to human rights is in fact entitled to human rights. Far more important than human rights is the non entitlement of some humans to them. The right to human rights can be overridden by the necessities of Government or to protect the interests of the elites.

  40. Carlyle Moulton

    18 Nov, 2009 - 12:11 pm

    Something odd is happening Craig. My last couple of posts have vanished into a black hole.

  41. Carlyle Moulton

    18 Nov, 2009 - 12:13 pm

    Ah it turns out that things were just very slow, may have generated accidental duplicates, triplicates.

  42. Carlyle Moulton,

    “Tribalism” and “Loyalty” are certainly still very much alive, but the vast majority of people clearly know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. Throughout the World, people remain very open and welcoming to completely different cultures, often exhibiting quite tremendous generosity. Whilst their first loyalty will remain within their tribe, they subconsciously and often consciously recognise that openness and friendship can be mutually beneficial. Its only when such trust is abused that evil rears its ugly head.

    Tony

  43. At risk at getting flamed to a barbecued crisp, may I suggest that Tony, Carlyle, Bob and others take their discussions to another place off this thread for today, please?

    This is a serious post by Craig, and the discussion here needs to keep its eye on the ball.

  44. I think Brian and Abe Rene are doing a useful job here testing Craig’s assertion that this is incontrovertible proof that Jack Straw lied to parliament.

    My view is that Craig is right, but I think Brian’s comments show how essential it is to provide “notes for those having difficulty understanding Civil Service jargon”. The issue is very straightforward and simple, but has successfully been buried under layers of obfuscation.

    Indeed, it might be worth Craig providing a very clear guide to why this disclosure is significant for the absolute beginner?

    Regarding lying to parliament. I’m no constitutional expert but I’m guessing that formally this is a matter for parliament itself rather than the police or suchlike.

    Therefore, what are the next steps to take this further?

    Craig, do you have a sympathetic MP who could help with tabling parliamentary questions, or complaining to the Speaker, or whatever is needed? Would George Galloway be prepared to assist?

    Meanwhile, obviously it would be nice to think that someone from the mainstream papers would pick this up eg the new winner of the Paul Foot Award for Investigative Journalism, Ian Cobain of The Guardian (or, if The Guardian won’t touch it, someone from the Independent).

  45. Carlyle Moulton:

    try clicking the “Refresh” button on your browser a few seconds after you’ve posted. I normally find that this site updates itself pretty quickly, but a new comment doesn’t always show up until you’ve clicked “Refresh”.

  46. Good points, Strategist. Yes, where should we apply pressure?

  47. Strategist,

    Everyone realises that this is a serious post by Craig. It’s his blog, and he is completely free to delete any comments that he feels are inappropriate – including yours.

    If you think a “sympathetic MP” or an “Investigative Journalist” are likely to have any positive outcome, or even have any opportunity to leave any impression, then you are living in a state of self delusion, and think we still live in a Free Democracy.

    Ask Craig how easy it is, to get any media attention about such important issues?

    Your attempts to stop others contributing to a blog will have absolutely no effect, except to stop people raising their views on a widely read blog.

    Why don’t you write some more stuff on the Guardian’s blog?

    Do you honestly think it will make any difference?

    Tony

  48. Tony. Thanks for letting me off with only a light toasting…

  49. Strategist,

    Actually, I was very impressed with the silence in class. I bet you can’t do that with the rabble on Guido’s blog, which is only worth reading for the occasional hilarious contribution.

    Tony

  50. Sorry that last comment was by me, addressed to Bob

  51. Tony,

    your 1:45 comment was overly cynical. Craig certainly HAS made progress on this issue, as have others. The evidence of torture and collusion with torture is being reported, not as much as we’d like maybe, but more than it would be if we all just didn’t bother.

    I do often wish this site was structured more like a discussion forum, though… Can’t we have a “Green Room”, Craig?

  52. Craig,

    I’m glad you didn’t delete Bob’s comment; it was so silly it made me laugh.

  53. Clark,

    The site is based on a rickety old platfrom which the blog has way outgrown. Problem is apparently it would be a massive amount of work to move it. I don’t think we can do any more modern comment stuff on this platform.

  54. Media reporting of evidence of British Security Services collusion in torture (in the case of Salahuddin Amin) was subject to a court injunction, with the reason cited as :_

    “…the grave risk to national security at the present time from potential acts of terrorism and the likely obstruction both to the identification of perpetrators and to the bringing to justice those who are identified are so real that an exceptional course is justified.”

    See http://preview.tinyurl.com/y9nhd85

  55. Sorry, I apologise for being overly-cynicl. With regards to the theory of coincidence which I mentioned in an earlier post, I will relate the following because it is kind of relevant.

    A close neighbour of ours was very recently interviewed on National TV News. Now I know he had some very posh mates, because he invited us to one of his parties. I won’t go into the details but they were all dressed like penguins and I had just come back from a rock concert with the guitarist.

    Anyway, I was beginning to think he had lost his job, and came very close to asking him about it. Then he appeared on National TV news. Of course he wasn’t saying anything particularly interesting, and I would much prefer to see Craig Murray given the same opportunity…

    But that is not how the system works. Sure you need the experience, but you also need all the right contacts, right up to the highest level. And everything needs to be cleared editorially in advance, except in extremely rare circumstances.

    Whilst obviously Craig Murray has got some very good contacts, he is hardly likely to get an opportunity to discuss the contents that he writes here on Prime Time National TV News, unless something quite extra-ordinary happens.

    Tony

  56. Craig, have you looked at WordPress? It gets very good reports from users, and I believe it’s easy to transfer existing archive material once you’ve set it up.

  57. anticant,

    Apart from when this website is apparently sufferring denial of service attacks, which is an issue that Craig’s Dutch ISP, now seems to be dealing with quite effectively, I Really Like its simple format. It does everything it needs to do, and at least in the browser I use – works very well and looks quite nice.

    I think I may have mentioned previously, that my Son runs his own ISP, and he could offer much faster bandwidth and multi-site redundancy, but he is only 21 years old. Yes he provides Internet Services All Over The World including Internet TV Services to places like Peru and Saudi Arabia…

    But any company who provides Internet Services To Craig Murray, needs Balls of Steel

    Because Craig Murray is Craig Murray

    Tony

  58. What Politicians Need To Realise, That The Internet Was Designed and Implemented By People Like Me…

    We Couldn’t Give a Shit About What People Say To Each Other…

    All We Are Doing Is Maintaining Communication Links

    And You Might Try and Sue Us Or Close Us Down…

    But We Have No Interest In What You Have To Say…

    We are Just Maintaining The Communication Links – Just Like The Guys Who Maintain The Electricity Supply…

    We have No Knowledge About The Content Of The Communication

    We are Not Editors. We Do Not Control The Content of The Data.

    All We Do Is Maintain Communications

    Some of The Communications You May Not Approve Of – But That Is Not Our Problem

    And If We Receive Any Letters From Arseholes We Will Wipe Our Arses On Them – Before We Flush Them Down The Toilet

    I Personally Am Retired…

    And I express my interest on this and other web sites..

    My Son Hosts Many Thousands of Websites All Over The World…

    And it maybe that some Revolutionary Cunt is Spreading His Message About Taking On The Abusive Penguins in Outer Mongolia on a Website That My Son Or His Resellers Are Hosting and You May Want To Sue him in Outer Mongolian…

    He Will Simply Ignore You, So Long as The Bloke Paying The Bill Keeps Up His Payments

    He is Not In The Editing Business and Has Absolutely NO Interest In Politics

    He is Just Providing a Service

    Tony

  59. Tony – it was not just happening in London. This reference to an astonishingly coincidental drill ahead of time is reasonably well referenced, given it was a FEMA spokesman talking to Dan Rather:

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fematape.html

    I concur with your item on sociopaths, and how they rise in government. In could also be said that Chief Executive positions lend themselves to high-functioning sociopaths. How else could they commit treason by sending their nation’s jobs offshore by the million, throw vast numbers of families into desperation, take their millions in bonuses with a smile on their face, and still sleep easy at night. And get up the next day, and think of new ways to do the same thing, and internally congratulate themselves for doing a good job, and convince themselves that they have earned their money by their exceptional cleverness.

    In business, we get the likes of Mark Hurd, CEO of HP. He has successfully sacked tens of thousands of decently paid western workers to pay slavery wages in China to have all hardware manufactured. Then the same but to India, for the software and administration end. While profits for HP break records, he imposes a 10% pay cut on all employees in the US – given how tough the market is these days , the hapless worker should understand. He generously takes a 10% salary cut himself, about 0.1% of his total income from HP, while trousering a $50+M bonus.

    In politics we get the likes of Blair – as with your summerising of sociopaths, he was said to “glow”. Clearly, Blair is a sociopath, and cares nothing beyond getting his wishes fulfilled at that given moment. That “success” is all it takes to convince him that he was right all along, regardless of the outcome. Remember, a sociopath is never wrong, and any unfortunate consequence is always Someone Else’s Fault.

    This internalisation, rationalisation, whatever you want to call it, makes the high-functioning sociopaths running the programme drive weak people such as Jack Straw. The likes of Straw will suddenly be caught up with this wonderous personality, and their sudden own importance, that they will rationalise their own position at any price. Even abandoning any semblance of principle, honesty or even credibility that they once held. They must hold with it. A terrible error in judgement would be too terrible to contemplate, otherwise, by the time they embarked even a short way down the path. This sort of person – as Straw is demonstrating even now – is the most dangerous threat to liberty we can have. A weak stooge with tremendous power, and responsibility to do the Right Thing, but dares not.

    Such a potential for being a stooge was clearly identified to sociopath Blair early on, and that is why Straw has become what he has become. Very sad, because under more enlightened guidance, Straw might well have become a very positive administrator in some small capacity, who could have done a reasonably large community some good.

    I suppose there is very little more sad than seeing a once principled man, bought and paid for to make a small-time stooge. Straw has to be the ultimate example. At least Short, Cook and Dobson bailed. Hain is another bitter disappointment, little more than a co-conspirator and apologist to war criminals. How the admired, principled people have let us down once we’d finally got them into power.

  60. Being sometimg of a noob, a newbie, an ingenue des affaires politiques, how is it that the most dangerous, most anarchic, most libertarian political critic de nous jours, Guido Fawkes aka Paul Staines, is a regular on the telly whilst rational evidential critics like Craig are not?

    Shurely shome mishtake…

  61. Letter in the Morning Star yesterday. The message is getting through..

    Real reasons behind Taliban’s removal

    Wednesday 18 November 2009

    The British public have been deluded for too long as to the reason for the Afghan war. Bush had decided before the destruction of the Twin Towers that Afghanistan was to be invaded to overcome Taliban resistance to the construction of an oil/gas pipeline through the country from Turkmenistan to Pakistan and India.

    Hamid Karzai, the discredited president of Afghanistan, formerly worked as a consultant for Unocol (now Chevron) in negotiations with the Taliban concerning the pipeline which eventually failed.

    After the invasion the Karzai government signed the pipeline deal on December 27 2002. So our boys are dying to boost the profits of the oil barons.

    The Taliban had been told either to accept the offer of a carpet of gold or be buried under a carpet of bombs.

    David & Joan Sheldon

    Epsom

  62. The awakening is indeed growing Mary. I will chuckle when I see the rats starting to jump ship. Murdering fukkers.

  63. From Glenn: How the admired, principled people have let us down once we’d finally got them into power

    I disagree. You cannot get such fundamental change in so many people unless there is a very good reason for it.

    We need to find out the reason.

  64. Well it seems that Turkmenistan have gotten tired of waiting for the westerners to come through. Very recently Iran and the Turkmens have completed their pipeline –

    http://www.upi.com/Science_News/Resource-Wars/2009/11/12/Iran-Turkmenistan-pipeline-online-in-weeks/UPI-30471258042432/

    and China and the Turkmens have completed their pipeline also –

    http://turkmenistan.ru/?page_id=3&lang_id=en&elem_id=15866&type=event&sort=date_desc

    Strangely, these events have arisen at the roughly the same time as Brown/Miliband release plans to pull out of Afghanistan…

  65. Craig,

    You are very brave. Don’t ever regret standing up for Truth and Justice. You speak for millions of people who stand by you and the values of civilization.

    Thank you for all you doing. We shall soon see the likes of Jack Straw and Tony Blair behind bars as war criminals.

    (France)

  66. The Frankfurt School

    19 Nov, 2009 - 3:15 pm

    Craig – you’re not alone.

    “While Davies’s book was discussed, reviewed, and applauded, far and wide in both print and broadcast media, our own book (published in September) has so far limped to just two, largely dismissive, reviews in mainstream outlets, in the Guardian and Times Higher Education (THE), totalling exactly 1,000 words. Our previous book, Guardians of Power (2006), has never been mentioned, let alone reviewed, in any mainstream national UK newspaper.

    The truth is that dissident media analyses are consistently ignored in this way – it is not just us. And so Cook’s comparison of Davies’s mainstream view of the media with an analysis based on Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky’s “propaganda model of media control” is a vanishingly rare event. As ever, Cook’s experience as a professional journalist adds a fascinating additional dimension to his analysis.”

    http://www.medialens.org/alerts/index.php

    Let’s get trivial

    Trivial

    I wanna get trivial

    Trivial…

  67. Nov. 18, 2009

    “Transcript”

    “Explosive testimony on Afghan detainees”

    “Senior diplomat Richard Colvin testified at a House of Commons committee Wednesday that he warned government and military officials that Afghan detainees being turned over by Canadian soldiers were being tortured. The following is an extract from his opening statement”…

    http://tinyurl.com/y9xjcx3

  68. The UK government is looking even worse than the USAnians:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8368841.stm

  69. Another CIA torture hell hole ‘discovered’ in Lithuania.

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24010.htm

  70. Quite interesting that the Brit who has just been made European Union High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Catherine Ashton, has no Foreign Office or diplomatic experience whatsoever in her 7 year ministerial career, 10 years after her political career was kickstarted by being appointed to the House of Lords.

    Presumably, she must be a massive talent to have got so far so fast? What other explanation could there possibly be?

  71. “What other explanation could there possibly be?”

    This seems as good as any…

    http://tinyurl.com/ykpxqy3

    “Puppet on a String” also won the Eurovision song contest…A case of history repeating itself.

  72. John D. Monkey

    20 Nov, 2009 - 12:46 am

    1. She’s married to Peter Kelner, Bambi’s pollster-in-chief.

    2. She won’t frighten the horses.

    3. She can safely be ignored by Sarkozy, Merkel et. al.

    Cheap at the price!

  73. Tony: “At the moment, hardly anyone is actually telling the truth about anything.”

    >>Some of us are. Consistently and with material evidence. The prevailing dominant sociopathic culture rolls out its sadistic, covert dirty tricks brigade and the good guys get battered every which way. Until the tide turns, that is.

    Ruth: “From Glenn: How the admired, principled people have let us down once we’d finally got them into power

    I disagree. You cannot get such fundamental change in so many people unless there is a very good reason for it.

    We need to find out the reason.”

    >>I don’t believe there’s any reason apart from what’s in plain sight: the love of power, money, greed and a thoroughly callous, ruthless disregard for ordinary people. Sociopaths are adept at gathering coteries of intimidated wannabes around them.

    We ordinary little people who have healthy principles and compassion cannot get our heads round this sociopathy and its lickspittle adherents, whom we’d always thought of as admirable and ‘people like us’. So we have to read more into it than is there.

    It’s simple. We either go along with these sociopaths and feather our own nests with their droppings, or we disassociate and stand up for humane values, compassion and fairness. The latter is far harder in a climate where every infected, diseased arm of the state is pressed into the sociopathic service of suppressing truth and rational, free debate.

    But if we don’t stand firm now, then we’re certainly headed for another 3rd Reich, another CCCP.

    Kudos to Craig for standing firm.

    >>and yes, it’d be good to have that ‘green room’, a discussion forum…anyone any ideas for how to set it up?

  74. “But if we don’t stand firm now, then we’re certainly headed for another 3rd Reich, another CCCP”

    Exactly. And not because nazi-ism or communism, but because they are totalitarian in nature. Central banks like things this way… So much easier to extract wealth from the people, when ‘their’ governments act ruthlessly.

  75. It was gratifying to see Bliar scuttling away from the cameras yesterday.

    People here keep using the term ‘sociopath’. I would say that the term psychopath applies to these war criminals.

    Psychopathy is a personality disorder whose hallmark is a lack of empathy. Robert Hare, renowned researcher in the field describes psychopaths as “intraspecies predators who use charm, manipulation, intimidation, sex and violence to control others and to satisfy their own selfish needs. Lacking in conscience and empathy, they take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without guilt or remorse”. “What is missing, in other words, are the very qualities that allow a human being to live in social harmony.”

    Psychopaths are glib and superficially charming, and many psychopaths are excellent mimics of normal human emotion; some psychopaths can blend in, undetected, in a variety of surroundings, including corporate environments. There is neither a cure nor any effective treatment for psychopathy; there are no medications or other techniques which can instill empathy, and psychopaths who undergo traditional talk therapy only become more adept at manipulating others. The consensus among researchers is that psychopathy stems from a specific neurological disorder which is biological in origin and present from birth. It is estimated that one percent of the general population are psychopaths. (Wikipedia)

    a~~

    Much of the above applies to Blair, Brown, Straw, Hoon et al and their counterparts in the US, Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Powell et al.

  76. Well well. What’s this all about? ACPO are having a hissy fit on Cameroon’s plan to have forces under locally elected control. I thought we had police authorities containing locally elected representatives at the moment.

    Acpo head warns police chiefs may quit over Tory plans

    Sir Hugh wants police independence retained.

    Police chief constables may resign if a Tory government tries to place forces under local political control, the head of their professional body has warned.

    Sir Hugh Orde, of the Association of Chief Police Officers, said colleagues would resist being told how to protect the public by locally-elected leaders.

    The Tories want these officials to be able to hire and fire police chiefs and set force budgets in England and Wales.

    Sir Hugh said police independence was vital to public trust and democracy.

    Sir Hugh, the former chief constable of Northern Ireland, took over as the president of Acpo earlier this year.

    aa~

    Few people know that ACPO is a private company.

    http://www.acpo.police.uk/about.html

  77. They’ve speedily forgotten the old dispensation when local police forces were semi-independent of the Home Office and overseen by elected watch committees. A good summary of the history here:

    http://www.historyandpolicy.org/papers/policy-paper-16.html

  78. Few people know that ACPO is a private company.

    http://www.acpo.police.uk/about.html

    I knew that.

    On a totally different subject and not related in any shape, way or form to the above (and me being a bit thick) could anyone tell me what the word “freemasons” means?.

  79. I have just been looking at the composition of the panel on the Chilcot Inquiry. The members were chosen and appointed by Brown/NuLabour ie the poacher chooses the magistrate, and if this was not so serious a matter this would be funny. JP Morgan Chase also employ Bliar but I am absolutely 100% sure that there will be no conflict of interest. (from Wikipedia)

    Sir Roderic Lyne – He will form part of the Chilcot enquiry into circumstances leading up to war in Iraq in 2003 and its aftermath. He is an advisor to JPMorgan Chase, who have been chosen to operate the Trade Bank of Iraq, which will give banks access to the financial system of Iraq.

    He was a special adviser to BP, which currently has major interests in Iraq.

    a~~

    Sir Michael Wood FCO (in Craig’s post above) is on this list to give evidence first.

    Any comments Craig?

  80. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100017393/climategate-the-final-nail-in-the-coffin-of-anthropogenic-global-warming/?

    Seems to be that the climate camp have been lying and changing figures that didnt suit for some time now.

  81. And I bet the Canadian defence minister has also lied here…..

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/20/canada-allegations-complicit-torture-afghanistan

    You did this before this Canadian diplomat Craig… thank you for being you

  82. I could hardly believe, that a girl in my wife’s class at school, who no-one has heard of outside of the political class, and someone who has never been elected to do anything whatsoever should be given what is potentially one of the most influential powerful jobs in Europe – but stranger things have happenned in fiction – but no one believed the story was true.

    It would have been better if it had been Blair for numerous reasons. First of all to have a World Renown War Criminal as Leader of The EU would be completely appropriate for an Unelected European Dictatorship that the vast majority of the European Population completely disapprove of.

    And nearly as importantly, if Blair had have got the job, as even Monbiot has pointed out, he would have to travel regularly to different Capitals in Europe, and would always be worrying when he was going through Airports, is it going to happen here and now…?

    Because sooner or later it will.

    It would be completely appropriate if the Leader of the EU was arrested and Charged with War Crimes Against Humanity, and Shackled and Taken To The International Criminal Court in The Hague.

    So far as Lady Ashton of Upholland is concerned, well I have never heard of her, and I don’t think anyone outside of The Political Class has ever heard of her.

    Also hardly anyone in Upholland has ever heard of her. They might as well have given the job to My Mother-In-Law. Despite being about 25 years older, she is far better looking, and personally knows thousands of people in Upholland and surrounding areas. Not only that but she is of Royal Descent – a Direct decendent of at Least Two of The Women That King Henry VIII not only shagged, but married – and one of them was French.

    She is also a strong defendent of small independent farmers, having had her father’s farm compulsorarily puchased such that they could build the abortion of Skelmersdale on it, and also opposed to mass immigration, particularly of Scousers.

    The Most Powerful Lancashire Girl in Europe? I think I’m Going To Throw Up.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_Ashton,_Baroness_Ashton_of_Upholland

    Tony

  83. Steve Abbott

    20 Nov, 2009 - 6:36 pm

    Craig, are you following the news items on Canadian diplomat, Richard Colvin, re torture of Prisoners handed over by Canadian Forces in Afghanistan?

    http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/2009/11/19/afghanistan-torture-colvin-inquiry.html

  84. There is nothing to be said about the bypassing of FCO talents, it shows how popular they are.

    I think the two will make a go of it and hopefully work together, it is to be seen who and what will try and send the first shiver to divide them from their tasks of uniting 27 states, who will be the first to work away at the new decision makers in Europe? create factionalism and division between two departments that have a simbiotic realtionship to function well, one can only do as good as the other.

    Maybe the friends of Israel are already smarting at the task.

    I welcome both appointments and will want to see how they are doing for Europe.

    As much as some might want to flog their mother in law, royal heritage connective tissues, warts and all to do this job, don’t mind if they see ol crony Tony on the throne, a calamity and invitation to create more strife and anger, imho, I could not possibly join in.

    The man is a religious nutter who should has lied and deceived what people call ‘democratic institution’, his actions together with others were pivotal in sending hundreds of thousands Iraqi civilinas to death, I’m glad he never had a chance, it says something about Europe and its leaders, how people felt about his performance.

    Anyway, the gold price is creeping up, maybe soon we will see a new world currency emerging, will do wonders to our spending habits I fear.

  85. Re: Mary’s Wikipedia quote on psychos/politicians, bankers, etc.

    “The consensus among researchers is that psychopathy stems from a specific neurological disorder which is biological in origin and present from birth.”

    To call psychopathy disorder seems bizarre. Look at the buggers. Who’s got the money, the power, the fame.

    Obviously it’s a highly adaptive trait. And for those who don’t have it, the logical thing is to skew the contingencies of selection: send the bastards to the Hague and have them tortured to death by being forced to listen to a tedious English judge for years — as in the case of Slobo. Or just hang them.

  86. Alternatively, train him to shoot a gun give him one single pair of boots and a basic kit to carr round and send him to Helmand, not to polish boots or cook for the troops, but next to fighting contingents, out on patrole with the boys. If he comes back, he will be a changed man forever.

    or, feed him to the dogs.

  87. ingo,

    Actually I think it was more a part of this

    http://www.alternet.org/world/144022/why_is_congress_demonizing_an_investigation_of_israel%27s_war_crimes_in_gaza

    Gaza today.

    [Report this comment] [Ignore this user]

    Posted by: Tescoliatprole on Nov 20, 2009 1:37 AM

    Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]

    Your rating: 5

    Do you ever get the feeling that events are overtaking us? My view is that Bush and Blair have already been found guilty of war crimes in the real world court, i.e. the court of World Opinion. Wether jurisprudence ever catches up remains to be seen. But I cant help thinking that this same world court has already made its mind up about last winters attack on the people of Gaza. The world has shrunk, and we were all able to watch as white phosphorous rained down on defenseless civilians. We were all able to see the aftermath.

    The mushroom media can continue on it’s own sorry path, but those with eyes to see, and ears to hear and with the curiosity to find out have bypassed the mushroom growers. Not it would seem in the House of Representatives.

    We are fed a steady diet of the settlements issue, but many of us are asking what now for the people of Gaza? Eighty thousand homes destroyed. People now facing a freezing winter surrounded by the rubble of their former homes. No building materials for reconstruction. And no suggestion from our current leaders that their consciences are at all troubled.”

    Tony

  88. We know what’s going on, OK. But what’s the point of knowing what’s going on if we do nothing?

  89. Craig, I notice that a nat blogger is being forced off the net because he ‘outed’ Jim Murphy as a cunt. Consider this a shot across your bow – the droids are getting ready for an election, and wardog is an early trophy. Could you please assist the dissonant majority by going on record with a confirmation that Jim Murphy is indeed a cunt (as we in Scotland understand the term in its colloquial and familiar sense as descriptive of an entirely worthless person) – and put on record your regret that an articulate voice of dissent has been silenced?

    http://wardogblog.blogspot.com/

  90. Quoting Ruth: “We know what’s going on, OK. But what’s the point of knowing what’s going on if we do nothing?”

    Well, quite. But it’s a real poser, isn’t it? c. 2million of us gathered in protest back at Hyde Park: if millions of people all over the UK and the world held no sway as we exercised our democratic right to peaceably protest, then one wonders what exactly would constitute effective lawful action.

    One can only hope that the Chilcot inquiry may surprise us with truth and fuel for justice. At least, the MSM seems to be beginning to focus on Blair and his culpability.

    “…Fresh evidence is emerging every week of the alleged complicity of the British state in the torture of terrorist suspects, particularly after President Bush’s White House took a much more brutal approach to such enemies of America after the bombing of the Twin Towers in 2001.

    It is inconceivable that British intelligence agents would have been involved in the torture of terror suspects without explicit ministerial sanction.

    The question is how much did Blair himself know – and the evidence he did is getting nearer his door all the time. A Human Rights Watch report into British complicity with torture is to be published on Tuesday and will add to the pressure.

    The third area of potential illegality [first concerns corruption, whereby businessmen or large corporations were able to influence government policy or gained other favours in exchange for donations to the Labour Party]

    concerns the still highly controversial decision to go to war with Iraq in March 2003.

    A number of legal experts argue that the war was illegal and Tony Blair is therefore guilty of war crimes…”

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1229692/PETER-OBORNE-He-looks-haunted-new-claims-torture-war-lies-hes-got-lot-haunted-by.html#ixzz0XSROcxTa

    Maybe the smoke and mirrors house of cards will fall under its own despicable weight? May we hope that time will give birth to truth?

  91. Sam. Gathering isn’t enough. That’s the lesson of Feb 2002, and indeed of earlier times! Poll tax demos, miners demos, Iraq war demo. The means of protest via demo died a peculiar and almost unrealised death in the late 20th and early 21st century.

    It’s time – long overdue in fact, to make a move into direct action / civil disobedience.

    Refuse to bank with institutions who are involved with dirty principles. e.g. Lloyds for blocking Palestinian aid. Barclays for what amounted to threates to bring a little island to it’s knees.

    Do not purchase goods/services from companies that have connections to dirty politics.

    Don’t vote for anyone other than those clearly against the putrid NWO.

    Do not pay tax to fund a war machine.

    Don’t pay for media which oils that killing machine.

    There are many things one COULD do, but it’s incredibly sad that most just don’t give a toss.

  92. Re: 5:30 AM,

    Lots of people care, they just don’t think they can make any difference. I agree with all of the suggested actions, but I really don’t know how the money I spend actually gets used, and it would take an age to find out.

  93. November 19, 2009

    “Share the Sacrifice Act Ends Borrowing to Pay for Afghan War”…

    http://tinyurl.com/yduojqr

  94. I read that Oborne article claiming that Blair is a war criminal and about the evidence against him:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1229692/PETER-OBORNE-He-looks-haunted-new-claims-torture-war-lies-hes-got-lot-haunted-by.html#ixzz0XSROcxTa

    Whilst I don’t disagree with much of it, I think Oborne is a bit naive when he says this:

    “His predecessor, Margaret Thatcher, has only to enter a restaurant and the room will rise to applaud her. Tony Blair, in contrast, is increasingly reviled and insulted.”

    I well remember Thatcher in power and she was utterly despised up and down the country. Even when the Tory conference was bombed there was much cheering in the country, so much were they hated. So clearly that’s not enough, especially if over time perceptions can change so much.

    In many ways it was Thatcher’s destruction of the BBC and Thames Television which paved the way for the toadying broadcast media experience we have today.

    The BBC was destroyed by Thatcher in 1987, and Thames lost its franchise in 1992 on foot of changes in the franchising legislation passed by Thatcher. This legislation allowed Carlton to win the Thames TV franchise. Carlton was an even poorer broadcaster than Channel Five is today. Thames was one of the best current affairs and news broadcasters in British history.

    Thatcher certainly paved the way for Blair and Mandelson’s control of the news agenda.

  95. Maybe we all need to meet to thrash out ideas on how to become an effective organisation.

  96. RUTH’S COMMENT & THE DOUBLE STANDARD IN HUMAN RIGHTS

    Ruth, you raise a very good question. Look at my own case. I won’t reiterate it except to say that it is indicative of an appalling double standard in human rights and civil liberties. Now I am not in any way belittling these foreign human rights matters that are so regularly reported on and so important. They are absolutely shocking issues that need exposure, but there is a double standard being applied.

    The double standard is this – Our human rights industry will not deal honestly with human rights issues (like mine) where the core of the high establishment are the abusers. Yes, they will attack Pinochet-types thousands of miles away, or the CIA, even occasionally our own personnel ?” but never the high establishment. Other victims of the high establishment have reported the same.

    This is my experience of Amnesty International and The Guardian. These organizations hold themselves out to be advocates of human rights issues; so people believe that they are honest and report all. So when they avoid an issue (like mine) they are effectively denying it credibility, and operating indirectly in support of the abusers.

    What I do know is this. After leaving The Guardian’s offices in Manchester, my wife and I were threatened by MI5 just for going there. When we reported the issue (multiple death threats from MI5/6 being covered-up by government) to Amnesty, they ran a country mile (to the disgust of some of their local activists) and made no attempt to check anything whatsoever. My correspondence with Amnesty is on the Internet.

    Comments on my shocking experience with The Guardian have been published in other mainstream papers under the heading:

    THE GUARDIAN: PRESS SELF-CENSORSHIP WHERE THE HIGH ESTABLISHMENT IS CONCERNED

    It can be seen on this web site:

    http://russell46.livejournal.com/

    Ruth, as long as the home established can rely on the operation of a double standard in human rights (and civil liberties) and on the hypocrisy and cowardice of organizations such as The Guardian and Amnesty International, you can be certain that nothing will happen at all. It seems to me that the high establishment and their tools (MI5/6) have it all nicely sown up.

    Roderick Russell

    #207, 1733 ?” 27 AVE. SW

    Calgary AB T2T 1G9 CANADA

    403.229.0864

  97. The Internet’s uncensorable nature and the power it gives individuals to publish is a huge step forward. Look about the ‘net and you’ll see all sorts of groups publishing things the establishment would rather not make public. But what it doesn’t do is create a large consensus on such issues.

  98. Delphine Delgardo

    21 Nov, 2009 - 6:23 pm

    Off Topic: Sorry. But what do people think of this down the memory hole article on this quirky blog referencing BBC News:

    http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2009/11/british-plot-against-pakistan-british.html

    According to the Independent: “Britain planned to build a Taliban training camp for 2,000 fighters in southern Afghanistan.” (Revealed: British plan to build training camp for Taliban fighters …)

    A post at this site Cached tells us of the British government link to the terror in Pakistan.

    In 2007 Pakistani Intelligence traced the source of much of terror in Pakistan to a ‘terrorist’ camp in Helmand province in Afghanistan.

    The camp was run by Michael Semple and Mervyn Patterson.

    The real story was that these training camps were to create the Pakistan Taliban or Tehreek-e Taliban-e Pakistan (TMP); but why?

  99. Maybe we all need to meet to thrash out ideas on how to become an effective organisation.

    Posted by: Ruth at November 21, 2009 2:42 PM

    >>>Yes. Where? When?

    and why…? One has to be very clear about purposes and aims in order to create the grounds for consensus. (cf. Clark at November 21, 2009 4:38 PM)

    People DO care about what’s going on: corruption, the psychopathy of many of our leaders, the increasingly delusional nature of our culture (cf Roderick Russell’s experience, common to many, where the organisation spouting support for this or that ‘good’ actually turns its back on the victim of contraventions.)

    I notice that there are a number of apparently kosher looking democracy groups springing up around the net now. But I wonder how effective any of these are/will be. See, for example, Helena Kennedy’s Power 2010 http://www.power2010.org.uk/about/about-power-2010, which looks to me like something that’s been done before and was squashed out of existence.

  100. Delphine Delgardo

    No idea, except that the idea of the UK training the Taliban reminds me of a photo I once saw of a contortionist arching his back far enough to put his head backwards up through his legs. Moral contortionism. Seriously, one of the most effective ways to get people to accept secularism, which means separation between all social authority and religion, is to create war fatigue. Whatever it takes to put a stop to this terrible fighting, I will sign. i.e. collective torture. Secondly people always blame the perpetrators rather than the agent-provocateurs. Hence in Kurdistan, for years on end, the flow of funerals used to be continuous and now they blame the Arabs, rather than the West which armed Saddam Hussain, not just with weapons, but biological and other chemicals.

    Many of that generation which was brought up during conflict now reject everything Arab including the Qur’an, or giving their children Muslim, Arab names. War-Crime pays, but it’s getting harder, with the internet, not to get found out. Justice on Judgement Day will definitely be done, if not sooner, Inshallah.

  101. Thanks for that link Dephine. Just as it was not impossible to create the talibans political barnd of Islam during the 1980’s in Pakistan with the help of CIA and SIS, it is not impossible to contemplate such mercenary/spooks activities by some irrational thinkers.

    I also believe that the resumption of arms trade to Dostum and his best mate Karimov will create civil war conditions and revive the Northern Alliance’s antaginism with the southern tribes. Sadly the chances of Abdullah Abdullahs to unite these two factions by his presedency, he has family relations from both south and north, are not helped by the EU’s lifting of the arms embargo, indeed it looks like a continum policy guranteeing more strife and war in Afghanistan for a while to come.

    Already, Mp’s and minister allied to Karzai are attacked with suicide bvombers, he will be gone in a year and then we will be dealing with a whole new situation were alliances with warlords will be forged.

  102. The phenomenon of the West cultivating Al Qaeda in the fight against the Soviet Union was an application of the false principle that the enemy of an enemy is a friend. They armed Saddam against Iran with similar motives (‘He’s a SOB, but he’s our SOB’), and the Israelis similarly cultivated Hamas (to begin with) against Yasir Arafat.

    All three policies had disastrous consequences. Saddam invaded Kuwait, Hamas caused more trouble for the Israelis than Arafat did, and Al Qaeda caused 9/11 and its aftermath. Further, the reaction by the West injured its reputation – for America by its conduct in the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, and Israel by erecting the West Bank barrier and invading Gaza.

    Hopefully the West will have learned a hard lesson from all this – to put it as a proverb, he who handles snakes is liable to get bitten.

  103. @Abe Rene

    Perhaps the West had an interest in destabilising this region.

    It’s obvious that Israel had an interest in destabilising the Palestinians and their territory.

    Not sure why you think the West are the planet’s transcendental goodies, whose barbarism is only ever mistakes.

    Perhaps you ought to read some history, or at least some current affairs which is something other than from pro-West propaganda sources.

    That “West as goodies” premise of yours is not an asset so far as critical thinking is concerned.

  104. On Ruth’s question. My view is that the British people believe that they live in a democracy and indeed there is a steady stream of propaganda from the media to reinforce this viewpoint. It seems to me that the challenge is a PR one ?” to have the people see the truth for themselves.

    I also believe that our constitutional arrangements have been twisted out of shape to try and find a role for monarchy. This institution is not the figurehead we are lead to believe, but exercises very considerable behind the scenes power. I do not say that this undemocratic power is exercised by The Queen: monarchy is an institution surrounded by hundreds of courtiers and hangers-on, who may have their own agendas. I have had my views on this subject published in the mainstream Canadian press.

    MPs are only interested in getting elected ?” they will effect change if the issues becomes important to them. Perhaps Ruth could give us her views on the best approach to take.

  105. 19 November 2009

    “A turning point for the constitution”

    “So who benefits from this mess? It is certainly convenient for the civil service and the government of the day, but it also benefits pretty much anyone who is in a position of authority or knows anyone in a position of authority with something embarrassing (or even criminal) to hide.”…

    http://tinyurl.com/yescqxr

  106. Roderick Russell

    We have an idea that at the higher echelons of our society, everyone is scratching eachother’s backs in a united core of establishment self-interest. I suspect that a better model would be the earth’s upper atmosphere where there are several, highly stratified bands of different substances and temperatures.

    The problems you have described occur because hierarchy increases in importance as you ascend the establishment scale. Your rank depends on not interfering with the line managers above your own rank. If you question anything, you are immediately removed from rank altogether.

    What are human beings, that they have such a high opinion of themselves? Our lives are in the hands of Allah. All the treasures of this world and the next and all respect, are with Allah. These gonks are not allowed to stray out of their jealously guarded slot. My understanding roams freely like light radiating from a distant star. I refuse to value myself by their standards, the bastards who wallow in their own man-made superiority. They are primarily bastards to their own selves. I value myself by the standard shown to us by our prophet Muhammad, may God’s peace be upon him. We are fasting for nine days to get in some free forgiveness for our sins. That’s deep respect for human beings, not the blind insistence on status and status quo that deceives these lost souls/a***holes.

    Cheer up, like Craig. You’re in the right place and the right time and you’ve managed to escape from this nightmare of self-delusion we call power.

  107. @Grow up

    I haven’t had many messages that rival yours for ignorance. I note that your name is a call to others, not to self. You are not a competent judge of my knowledge or anyone else’s. You must learn the difference between speaking to the point and making personal comments based on your knowledge of someone – in your case none.

    As for the West being the world’s good guys: the West are humans first, and anything else afterwards. But there is freedom and opportunity here not available elsewhere. You had better learn to be grateful for what you have, and practice what your self-styled name preaches.

  108. @ Abe Rene

    I’m a perfectly competent judge of your juvenile comments on this blog.

    I note that you’re incapable of addressing the points I made. I’m not surprised at this.

    However, I see you’ve introduced another schoolboy howler into the mix, that “there is freedom and opportunity here not available elsewhere”.

    Clearly you don’t do irony either.

    I suggest you try to find out for yourself what it is like to be subject to US and indeed Western foreign policy, rather than dribbling on about how great things are here.

    It’s not my job to remedy the obvious defects in your education, but it is important that the trite drivel you spout is challenged at every opportunity.

  109. @Grow up

    You have made no points worthy of attention. If you don’t like it in the West, go elsewhere. I’m not wasting time on you.

  110. @ Abe Rene

    I’ve made a number of points worthy of attention.

    Their worth is incontrovertible. Your own personal inability to engage with them is an entirely different matter.

    I’d suggest that your, “If you don’t like it in the West, go elsewhere” is an appeal to subserviance and undermines the critical analysis that is the essence of Western being.

    Curiously enough, I haven’t actually criticised Western values. I’ve just criticised Western foreign policy and how it impacts those unfortunates in whom we take an interest.

    But then again, you’re much too dim to appreciate the difference.

    I’d be much happier if those who like yourself do not appreciate the critical traditions of Western culture would take yourself off to whatever other state you please, preferably one where drones are doing duty. You’re of no value to the good people of the West.

    Now please run along, like a good little boy.

  111. Grow up

    I’m not wasting time on you. Go and get your medication.

  112. @ Abe Rene

    Well, you do appear to be wasting some time, despite your claims to contrary.

    It would be much more productive if you were capable of addressing the points made, but as I’ve shown you’re singularly incapable of doing anything remotely approaching that.

    QED

    This demolition of your tedious and trivial interventions would serve to undermine any such further intervention on your part, and indeed “points” you might make in further threads.

    Educate yourself, before boring people with your tired, shabby, reheated versions of what popular media has instilled in your balefully uncritical mind.

  113. Roderick Russell is correct. Our ‘democracy’ is basically an illusion whilst we have this relic of a monarchy thankfully now self-extinguishing.

    I was looking to see how many Privy Counsellors there are (some throwback to gentlemen of the privy? carrying of the piss pots and the like?) and was absolutely staggered to see that there are hundreds of them enmeshed in our judicial and political structure. What are they there for and what do they do? War criminals like Blair, Straw and Hoon are amongst the number.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_members_of_the_British_Privy_Council#T

  114. Listening to Andy Hayman talking on The Interview BBC World Service. Total tripe, with apologies to those who like tripe.

  115. Mary asks what the Privy Councillors are they there for and what do they do.

    I suspect very strongly that an inner group of the Privy Council direct policy; that the Prime Minister and the Cabinet are their executive, that they control funds siphoned off from the taxpayers via the intelligence services and that they use the judiciary to hide state crime.

    It’s very interesting that two of the judges in the Lockerbie case became Privy Councillors just before the trial. It’s also very significant that the judges alledgedly brought in a verdict that no reasonable court could produced.

    It’s also quite interesting that as soon as Blair had made the Prisoner Exchange Agreement with Libya he asked Alex Salmond to become a Privy Councillor.

  116. Mary asks what the Privy Councillors are they there for and what do they do.

    I suspect very strongly that an inner group of the Privy Council direct policy; that the Prime Minister and the Cabinet are their executive, that they control funds siphoned off from the taxpayers via the intelligence services and that they use the judiciary to hide state crime.

    It’s very interesting that two of the judges in the Lockerbie case became Privy Councillors just before the trial. It’s also very significant that the judges alledgedly brought in a verdict that no reasonable court could produced.

    It’s also quite interesting that as soon as Blair had made the Prisoner Exchange Agreement with Libya he asked Alex Salmond to become a Privy Councillor.

  117. Thanks Ruth. I think your suspicions are correct. I should have said that I was looking at the list of privy councillors to see if the members of the Iraq Enquiry were on it. Of course all five, Chilcot, Freedman, Lyne, Gilbert and Prashar, are there. Prashar was only sworn in last month btw.

    The strange oath of secrecy they make is here. Sounds more like a freemasons’ lodge.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Her_Majesty%27s_Most_Honourable_Privy_Council

  118. So obviously they had to get Prashar in quick to tow the line.

  119. ‘Prashar was only sworn in last month.’

    Of course to bring in the right verdict.

    No deviation from the verdict already written.

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