All Law is Gone: Naked Power Remains

by craig on July 3, 2013 8:39 am in Uncategorized

The forcing down of the Bolivian President’s jet was a clear breach of the Vienna Convention by Spain and Portugal, which closed their airspace to this Head of State while on a diplomatic mission.  It has never been thought necessary to write down in a Treaty that Heads of State enjoy diplomatic immunity while engaged in diplomacy, as their representatives only enjoy diplomatic immunity as cyphers for their Head of State.  But it is a hitherto unchallenged precept of customary international law, indeed arguably the oldest provision of international law.

To the US and its allies, international law is no longer of any consequence.  I can see no evidence that anyone in an official position has even noted the illegality of repeated Israeli air and missile strikes against Syria.  Snowden, Manning and Assange all exposed illegality on a massive scale, and no action whatsoever has been taken against any of the criminals they exposed.  Instead they are being hounded out of all meaningful life and ability to function in society.

I have repeatedly posted, and have been saying in public speeches for ten years, that under the UK/US intelligence sharing agreements the NSA spies on UK citizens and GCHQ spies on US citizens and they swap the information.  As they use a shared technological infrastructure, the division is simply a fiction to get round the law in each country restricting those agencies from spying on their own citizens.

I have also frequently remarked how extraordinary it is that the media keep this “secret”, which they have all known for years.

The Guardian published the truth on 29 June:

At least six European Union countries in addition to Britain have been colluding with the US over the mass harvesting of personal communications data, according to a former contractor to America’s National Security Agency, who said the public should not be “kept in the dark”. This article has been taken down pending an investigation.
Wayne Madsen, a former US navy lieutenant who first worked for the NSA in 1985 and over the next 12 years held several sensitive positions within the agency, names Denmark, the Netherlands, France, Germany, Spain and Italy as having secret deals with the US.
Madsen said the countries had “formal second and third party status” under signal intelligence (sigint) agreements that compels them to hand over data, including mobile phone and internet information to the NSA if requested.
Under international intelligence agreements, confirmed by declassified documents, nations are categorised by the US according to their trust level. The US is first party while the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand enjoy second party relationships. Germany and France have third party relationships.

The strange script which appears there happens when I try to copy and paste from this site which preserved the article before the Guardian censored all the material about the UK/US intelligence sharing agreement from it.

As you can see from the newssniffer site linked above, for many hours there was just a notice stating that the article was “taken down pending investigation”, and then it was replaced on the same URL by the Guardian with a different story which does not mention the whistleblower Wayne Madsen or the intelligence sharing agreements!!

I can give, and I would give on oath, an eye witness guarantee that from my direct personal experience of twenty years as a British diplomat the deleted information from Wayne Madsen was true.

 

 

 

 

 

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329 Comments

  1. Putin’s good. He said this in one take without breaking up. No teleprompter either. “If he wants to stay here, there is one condition: He must stop his work aimed at harming our US partners – no matter how strange this may sound coming from me… ”

    It can’t get much better. I doubt Snowden is struck in transit at the Moscow airport, but now the Bolivian President, his Defense Minister and their air crew are trapped in the transit area of the Vienna airport. No evidence of Sacher Tortes and coffee on silver trays either. All hail Obama and Kerry. Takes Ivy League smarts to pull this off. The diplomatic cables should be real-time available to us for real-time laughs.

    It’s the new Library at Alexandria. The sum wisdom and stupidity of the human race. They also need store the billions of spams per day. Who knows what messages Enemies of the State might embed in those.
    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56515678-78/data-nsa-http-www.html.csp?page=1

    We’re reminded we have nothing to fear if we have nothing to hide, and nobody is snooping aunt Maude’s recipe for rhubarb pie. Based on all gubmints’ record for truth-telling, they surely are reading recipes, testing and selling the tastiest to food conglomerates. :)

  2. The media has long been under the sway of the government. Look on the BBC website for the new stories about the dangers of dark nets and the impact they are having on Internet child abuse. This information has been put out there so as to build up public acceptance that anyone not communicating in plain text is up to no good. It also has the subliminal effect of reinforcing why its good for GCHQ to monitor all Internet traffic.

  3. The censoring of the story of Wayne Madsen reminds me of the story of Radio Moscow’s news reader Vladimir Danchev who called Soviet troops in Afghanistan “invaders” and “occupiers”, and was quickly taken off air and treated as a mental patient.

  4. Tech Savage

    3 Jul, 2013 - 9:22 am

    Seems to me the BRICS have become very suspicious of Snowdon’s motives, which seem primarily to be about creating a rift between the US and the EU. What is without doubt is that no one is actually really shocked about PRISM, we’ve known about Echelon for decades, where’s the outrage? All this bluster from Germany and Belgium is to placate the media instilled ‘anger’ of their populations.

    When you strip away the media hype you are actually left with very little that wasn’t already known; the US spies on it’s allies and is collecting data on people, FFS they have been doing that since day one, as have the UK, Russia, China. etc. etc. What do you think those secret services spend all their time doing, just watching each other?

    Wikileaks is a psyop – you can support Assange all you like, the fact is the Wikileaks cables were highly vetted (not one cable regarding the US’s ‘greatest’ ally in the M.E.?) before they fell into the hands of Assange, who then treated them as his personal property for financial gain, for which his controllers duly deployed the sexual allegations to bring him back in – and why he now prefers to live like a parasite off the Ecuadorian people rather than face the music that he partly orchestrated.

  5. Tech Savage

    3 Jul, 2013 - 9:26 am

    “The media has long been under the sway of the government.”

    Yes, just ask Rupert Murdoch.

  6. While your hunch may be correct (nothing surprises me about this story anymore), Wayne Madsen is a true nutcase. I don’t know how the Guardian was snookered into including anything by or about him in a story.

  7. Right-Wing Hippy

    3 Jul, 2013 - 9:27 am

    The strange script which appears there happens when I try to copy and paste from this site

    Paste it into Notepad, then copy from there and paste into WordPress. This will clear the formatting.

  8. Austria said the president of Bolivia was cleared to leave through Spain’s airspace, now story is that’s not true; Spain still blocking.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live

    Craig, you think the Europeans are having some passive-aggressive fun, having been bullied into forcing Morales’ plane down in Vienna, they’re now messing around and allowing US stew for a few more hours in world outrage?

  9. conjunction

    3 Jul, 2013 - 9:33 am

    What is interesting is the arrogance of this act. Obama often speaks as if he were lord of the universe, or more specificaly as if it were/should be a given that the USA is the benefactor of and main holder of wisdom amongst mankind. His earlier remarks about Snowden were slightly dismissive which made me think it was his playmates who were getting their knickers in a twist. But he must have authorised this.

  10. Flaming June

    3 Jul, 2013 - 9:46 am

    I was coming back here from your previous post Craig to wish you (and your heel) well and to ask if you could comment on this outrage given your expertise in international law.

    We know that Israel knows no law and now the US acts likewise. Completely out of control and their ‘president’ is a hypocritical and implausible one dimensional chimera fit only for photo opportunities visiting slave houses and prison cells.

  11. It is true. There is no longer any international law.

    This report produced by Yorkshire CND is well-researched history of what goes on at Menwith Hill (and elsewhere).

    http://www.natowatch.org/sites/default/files/liftingthelid.pdfhttp://www.natowatch.org/sites/default/files/liftingthelid.pdf

    The US has at least five major stations in the UK. Parliament never gave permission for these bases but the US in its arrogant bullying manner has done what it does regularly, stolen it from right under our noses.

    Don’t forget that tomorrow there is an Independence from America demonstration outside Menwith Hill, a US communications interception station, near Harrogate. The time has come to speak out and make your presence felt. Salma Yaqoob is one of the speakers. There is excellent food available.

    http://www.caab.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/july4th-20132.jpg

  12. Flaming June

    3 Jul, 2013 - 9:59 am

    Meanwhile the Evil Empire is lost and going down. Crumbling back to ashes and dust.

    ‘Soon enough, your neighborhood will resemble mine, for the United States is becoming ever more Third World economically and socially, but this, the Italian Market, is hardly a benchmark. We’ll go further, much further. Outside its richest, gated enclaves protected by armed guards and, surely, combat robots and drones, the US will devolve into a society of rooming houses, day laborers and peddlers, not to mention street urchins and part-time prostitutes.’

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/03/a-view-from-south-philly/

    Linh Dhin the author keeps a photoblog – The State of the Union -where he closely observes his environment and his fellow citizens
    . http://linhdinhphotos.blogspot.co.uk/

  13. Well, the US doesn’t recognize international law, and neither does the UK. And they fail to recognize international law whilst, amusingly, warning others that they should obey international law, and they use this tactic repeatedly. It’s quite a trick, worthy of Goebells.

    I was intrigued by the Wayne Madsen story. Like everyone else on these boards, I have stumbled upon Mr Madsen, usually during a late night intergoogle. I kind of have him down as a bit of a crank, to be honest, from the outlandish conspiracy breed of crank. I say ‘kind of’ advisedly: so called conspiracy theorists are, of course, being proven correct on the NSA revelations, and I do so hate how often ‘conspiracy’ is bandied about, as a kind of gun-silencer, a smear, by dim-wits liks Oliver Kamm.

    However, even the wildest conspiracy crank, if that’s what he is, can get it right sometimes. I’m glad Craig – who doubtless is aware of Mr Madsen’s reputation – has given us his eye-witness account. The story itself, regardless of its source, didn’t seem all that implausible. I suspect more to come, too.

    And Mr Madsen is far more plausible, now, than the increasingly weird and creepy Obama, bluntly.

  14. Flaming June

    3 Jul, 2013 - 10:07 am

    For information to those quick off the mark to smear Madsen. The usual CT stuff is hurled in the manner of Kamm, Rentoul and Aaronovitch. It sticks of course like the stuff you tread in on the pavement sometimes.

    On June 30, 2013, The Observer, which is owned by The Guardian, in London published a story sourced from an interview with Madsen that it had found in a blog, alleging connections between the National Security Agency and several European governments. [20] International journalists and security experts pointed out that Madsen was wholly unbelievable. Several called him an “online conspiracy theorist.” [21][22] John Schindler, a professor at the Naval War College and intelligence expert, commented on Twitter that Madsen was “batsh*t crazy, to use the technical term.”[23] The Telegraph, a U.K. competitor, and Forbes both revelled in the controversy with a Telegraph newsblog saying that The Guardian had relied on a “fruitloop who thinks Obama is gay”. [24][25] The article was quickly removed from the parent (Guardian) newspaper’s website pending an investigation, but not before the print edition had gone to press.[26] According to Forbes, The Observer likely took the story down as it was concerned with the reliability of the source rather than the content as no matter how “left field” the source was, the story seems to be largely true and has been a matter of public record for some years.[24]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Madsen

  15. Flaming June

    3 Jul, 2013 - 10:18 am

    I used to be jeered at for speaking of the rise of fascism. It is creeping in, invisible to many.

    ‘Understanding the latest leaks is understanding the rise of a new fascism

    20 June 2013

    In his book, ‘Propaganda’, published in 1928, Edward Bernays wrote: “The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organised habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.”

    The American nephew of Sigmund Freud, Bernays invented the term “public relations” as a euphemism for state propaganda. He warned that an enduring threat to the invisible government was the truth-teller and an enlightened public.

    [..]
    The power of truth-tellers like Bradley Manning, Julian Assange, and Edward Snowden is that they dispel a whole mythology carefully constructed by the corporate cinema, the corporate academy and the corporate media. WikiLeaks is especially dangerous because it provides truth-tellers with a means to get the truth out. This was achieved by ‘Collatoral Murder’, the cockpit video of an US Apache helicopter allegedly leaked by Bradley Manning. The impact of this one video marked Manning and Assange for state vengeance. Here were US airmen murdering journalists and maiming children in a Baghdad street, clearly enjoying it, and describing their atrocity as “nice”. Yet, in one vital sense, they did not get away with it; we are witnesses now, and the rest is up to us.’

    http://johnpilger.com/articles/understanding-the-latest-leaks-is-understanding-the-rise-of-a-new-fascism

  16. Madsen as conspiracy theorist.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Madsen

    Of course I realise that will make him a hero and a highly credible source to many people around here. Just excuse the rest of us if we have a good laugh.

    Sorry if I have this wrong but I thought Diplomatic Immunity guaranteed free passage and immunity from prosecution to particular individuals. Snowden is not an acredited diplomat so does not have immunity from arrest. Neither does freedom from prosecution mean freedom to commit an offence. There’s nothing in the Vienna Convention that prevents anyone from intervening to stop an offence being committed by a diplomat. (I am fully aware that reference to an offence is going to be controversial but I’m looking at events from “their” point of view.)

    I’m also mystified as to why Snowden has applied for asylum in so many countries which are NATO members. Would they not be treaty bound to arrest and extradite him? If not wouldn’t they be inclined to allow his rendition?

  17. I’ve just tried to raise an Epetition on Telecommunications Interception to the Ministry of Defence which if I recall correctly went something like this.

    “Following the revelations by Edward Snowden and others, we, the British public, call for closure of US bases at Menwith Hill, Alconbury, Croughton, Lakenheath, Mildenhall and elsewhere which are intercepting emails, monitoring social networking sites, listening to telephone conversations and providing coordinates for US drone attacks abroad . . .”

    When I clicked on the link in the confirmation email I got a message saying that it confirmed the email address was correct and it could take up to 7 days before I would know whether it had been approved. I never had this with the last Epetition I raised.

  18. Obama is a liar when he says US forces won’t grab Snowden if he flies over US territory on his way to Cuba.

    Huge US pressure is being put on a number of countries’ governments.

    These include not just Russia but also France, Portugal, and Ecuador.

    Snowden was stitched up into flying to Moscow. He was given an Ecuadorean safe passage (laissez passer), which was then withdrawn!

    The western media churns out the bullshit that Ecuadorean diplomats in London are taking orders from Julian Assange rather than from Quito. What I think happened is that the US exerted pressure on both the foreign ministry in Quito and the Wikilinks hierarchy. Don’t forget that the Ecuadorean currency is the US dollar. The Russian government, through Russia Today, helped Julian Assange, and so did the Ecuadorean government. Now they’re both too chickenshit to follow through. I hope the Ecuadorean government changes its position.

    Snowden will be absolutely nuts if he flies anywhere near US or British airspace, or sails anywhere near their waters.

    Kim Philby avoided going through the English Channel en route to Cuba.

    Bobby Fischer avoided flying to Keflavik airport in Iceland, but chose to fly to a smaller airport less susceptible to US military action.

    With reference to Snowden, Bobby Fischer is the example people should be talking about.

    The list of governments that may help is now very small, and includes Bolivia, Venezuela, and Cuba, possibly in that order, and followed by Ecuador.

    The Bolivian government has been an example to the whole world in not kowtowing to the US and Israel.

    It is very significant that the aircraft carrying president Evo Morales, who was in Russia, was refused permission to enter Portuguese or French airspace. That must surely have been as a result of US pressure.

    In the end, the plane had to refuel in Spain and land in Austria.

    Morales has denied that Snowden was on board the plane.

    I do not know whether Snowden was ever in any area which can be considered to be under Bolivian jurisdiction (e.g. in the presidential car at Sheremetevo airport), but if he was, then I hope he was granted asylum when he was.

    The US government is pulling out all the stops.

    As I understand it, Morales is stuck at Vienna airport.

    I hope he is very careful about what he eats and drinks. Otherwise he may end up like a number of other Latin American leaders.

    I dearly hope that Bolivia has granted Snowden asylum, or if it hasn’t already, that a way will be found for it to do so.

    Morales: “We say and advocate that someone in the world should stand with this young man and protect him. The revelations he has made with courage serve to change the world.

    No doubt we will soon be hearing from all the barrack room lawyers.

  19. The BBC quote Austrian officials as saying Morales’s plane was searched at Vienna airport!

    Meanwhile, let us hope Ecuadorean president Rafael Correa’s U-turn was only temporary.

  20. Wayne Madsen may or may not be a swivel-eyed conspiracist nutjob. But what he said, and what was pulled by the Grauniad, was true. It didn’t even need security sources to back it. It was already in the public domain. A lot of messengers seem to be getting shot these days…

  21. Good post Craig.

    International law is mostly obviated by pro-US sympathies, including shameless cooperation by Australian politicians and political staff, some of whom have been exposed as US informants. On Obama’s reluctant visit to Oz, our current leader of the opposition referred to him in a speech as “.. the President of the world.” – - – I kid you not. You will not find evidence of this gaffe so easily. Not even on the intergoogle. The link below was a very tough find, confirmed by a nobody in the comments section of a completely unrelated article. Too embarrassing? Absolutely.

    “President of the World” in the comments section.
    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/abbotts-time-to-occupy-high-moral-ground-20111128-1o35z.html

  22. Phone records? Or is it everything?.

    US senators would like to know:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/jun/28/senators-letter-james-clapper

  23. US military and spy bases in Britain

    3 Jul, 2013 - 11:34 am

    Snowden is only saying what everyone interested already knows.

    Meanwhile, things can go into the public domain and then back out. One example is that the US used to pay the UK a lot of money (10 figures, I seem to recall) for the ‘rental’ of its military and spy bases in the UK. The payments were officially published by British government statisticians as a component of invisible exports. (For several years, if it hadn’t been for foreign military and spy bases and Lloyd’s insurance market, British trade would never have been in the black.)

    Nowadays, even the people who run campaigns against the US military presence in Britain know little or nothing about whether payments are still made, let alone how big they are.

  24. @Komodo. It’s everything.

    Which includes:

    ● domestic electrical circuits
    ● face recognition
    ● anything remote-readable or that remote-reads, e.g. in cars and mobile phones

    Capability is far far ahead of what’s admitted.

    When someone at GCHQ or NSA or even poor old MI5 gets your file out, they can call up far more than your emails, internet activity and what numbers you’ve connected to on your phone.

  25. Don’t for a minute believe that the forced landing of Bolivia’s President’s plane was brought about by a genuine belief of the US that Snowden was on board. It just might have been a dry-run test of EU cooperation with US plans to arrest Snowden for this likely contingency.

    Then again, Wikileaks might have tested the waters first by arranging a false report of Snowden’s attempted flight from Moscow. With sufficient false reports making multiple forced landings embarrassingly problematic, they might be able to clear the way for Snowden’s eventual departure.

  26. Live blogging here

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live

    “So, after a stopover of more than 12 hours at Vienna airport, Morales is on his way. But the diplomatic row is set to run.

    “Bolivia’s ambassador to the United Nations in New York said the refusal to let his president’s plane cross over European airspace was an act of aggression that should have consequences, AP reports …

    “French and Spanish officials have reportedly denied that they refused access to their airspace. Bolivia said Spain agreed to allow the plane to refuel in the Canary Islands but only if Bolivian authorities agreed to allow it to be inspected.”

  27. Phone records? Or is it everything?

    According to this ex fbi counter terrorism officer it’s everything:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/04/telephone-calls-recorded-fbi-boston

  28. Now will people believe that the UK DID try to storm the Ecuadorian embassy in London last year, just ahead of Ecuador granting Assange asylum? I was up until 5am that night watching the livestream from the embassy and there were groups of police officers entering through windows round the side of the building. It seems the raid was called off abruptly about 3am because the police withdrew. As Craig told us at the time, he heard from Foreign Office colleagues that it had been planned for 3 weeks because of DIRECT pressure on Cameron and Hague from Washington/Obama. (Everyone remember Cameron and Clegg both booking their holidays at the same time, then Hague cleared off 2 days later? That’s how ‘plausible deniability’ is done.)

    Ecuador’s Foreign Minister announced last night they found a listening device in the London embassy during his visit to Assange last month. They say they are announcing which country it belonged to this morning. Also, that Snowden’s letter to Correa was hacked and leaked to the press before Correa even received it; Ricardo Patino claims his email account was hacked to create all the “increasing tensions in Ecuador over Assange ‘running the show’” stories; and they have tape recordings of Correa’s statements about Snowden’s asylum, which they claim have been mistranslated in the press. I predict a fairly explosive news day comin’ up!!

  29. Flaming June

    3 Jul, 2013 - 12:28 pm

    ZBC have a tag* in their most read list on their website -

    Snowden suspicion jet ‘can fly home’ !!!!!!!!!!!

    Wow, that’s good of the ‘President of the World’, as another person has called him, this time in Tanzania.

    ‘“Obama is like the president of the world,” said Nuhu Sandari Mohamed, 60, who was out for a stroll along the street named after the president. “The fact that he’s connected to Africa, my children and their children and their children should know.”

    Couples strolled and sat by the water on Barack Obama Drive on Tuesday, as ice cream salesmen pedaled their three-wheel cycles with coolers loaded with treats. For Said Maumba, 28, Mr. Obama’s visit was the best day he had ever had selling frozen treats, like Kreemas for about 31 cents, to the throngs waiting to watch Mr. Obama’s motorcade pass.

    “He’s hugely famous, and a lot of people are obsessed and just want to see a glimpse of him,” Mr. Maumba said.’

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/03/world/africa/after-obamas-visit-an-electric-moment-for-tanzania-lingers.html?_r=0

    *The tag takes you to

    Snowden case: Bolivia condemns jet ‘aggression’
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23158242

  30. For the people asking upthread about the full extent of the NSA’s capability to capture all forms of comms in real-time, I have previously posted these two very informative articles about exactly that. The NSA were developing (and had patented) the technology to do “machine-transcription of voice” back in the 1990s. We can presume the technology has only improved since.

    Rixstep 13/6/13: NSA Transcribing Voice 17 Years Ago
    http://rixstep.com/1/20130614,00.shtml

    Rixstep 13/6/13: On US Patent 5,937,422 & ‘Semantic Forests’
    http://rixstep.com/2/20130614,00.shtml

    Hats off to Assange for understanding the implications for us all when he discovered this NSA patent back in 1999, and for trying to blow the whistle back then (aged 27 by my calculation – how happy he must be to see someone from the next Internet-generation doing the same to such effect a decade or so later. No wonder he’s doing everything in his power to help spirit Snowden out of danger.)

  31. FAO Craig,

    Here is the text without strike through;

    At least six European Union countries in addition to Britain have been colluding with the US over the mass harvesting of personal communications data, according to a former contractor to America’s National Security Agency, who said the public should not be “kept in the dark”.

    Wayne Madsen, a former US navy lieutenant who first worked for the NSA in 1985 and over the next 12 years held several sensitive positions within the agency, names Denmark, the Netherlands, France, Germany, Spain and Italy as having secret deals with the US.

    Madsen said the countries had “formal second and third party status” under signal intelligence (sigint) agreements that compels them to hand over data, including mobile phone and internet information to the NSA if requested.
    Under international intelligence agreements, confirmed by declassified documents, nations are categorised by the US according to their trust level. The US is first party while the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand enjoy second party relationships. Germany and France have third party relationships.

    This article has been taken down pending an investigation.

    Perhaps this could be of some help.

    - – - – -

    This level of disregard for all conventions and treaties is repugnant even the National Socialist of the German Reich did not flout the international laws that US et al are systematically driving horse and coaches through! This is cowboys and red Indians gone wild.

    I am shocked, really truly shocked, this is the kind of stuff that starts all out wars.

  32. I really feel that people are powerless. Its not that revelations that Snowden released that is of any significance, its the actions take by the US government and European governments that have proven that the people are completely and unilaterally powerless to the security establishment we have allowed are government to create. We are now truly living in an Orwellian state, and even now so many people are blind to it.

    Just a few notes: I recommend everyone to read the Indian press as they not only failed to condemn PRISM, but announced that it had helped fight terrorism and they will now be basing their own program on it. I kind of get the impression that a few under hand deals were done between the Indian government after the news broke. The Chinese press also announced a phone monitoring system in Tibet, which surprisingly went unannounced.But both cases hint that both governments programs are nothing in the line of the US program.

    Another interesting point is the Sinovel trade case, were America announced they would prosecute Chine over stealing trade secrets despite now also technically being accused of doing the same.

    And the last point is I looked into the EU-US bugging, I am assuming it was down to the US wanting to pressure the EU not to except the Russian energy deals they were making at the time. Being the Lisbon Treaty which the US felt threatened by had just come into force.

  33. Ecuador’s Foreign Minister announced last night they found a listening device in the London embassy during his visit to Assange last month.

    So I guess that was the “security situation” that got Assange’s 1-year asylum anniversary speech cancelled the following day.

  34. It’s entirely possible that Snowden was being kidnapped from the transit area of the airport and the presidential ‘plane being used as cover for an extraordinary rendition. Doesn’t it just gladden your heart to see that positive action is now being taken by the governments of the free world to ensure that this kind of thing no longer happens and that a blind eye isn’t turned to the comings and goings of potentially suspicious aircraft ? It’s all the more impressive that even a stateless individual with passport and travel documents revoked can initiate such a prompt and well co-ordinated response from disparate organisations operating in different jurisdictions.

  35. Thanks, Craig, for starting this thread as it will allow posters to discuss all aspects of Snowden’s disclosures – e.g., who he really is, and why he did it, others apparently involved and what happened to them, government conspiracies and people who attempt to reveal them, all people are not invariably good and truthful, to get anywhere in effectively exposing our most corrupt, evil world one still has to make terrible compromises, then there are all kinds of surprises, good and bad, along the way, etc.

    Keep up with your efforts, and let’s hope that more posters show your virtues in promoting free expression.

  36. Although unlikely to be actionable, I believe NSA warrantless intercepts and recording of private communications are in breach of international copyright treaties that provide for extradition and prosecution of offenders as already effectively demonstrated in several cases. Will the US Govt provide public assurances that federal officials will not be allowed to engage in further copyright violations?

    Kim Dotcom (alleged copyright violator) has a stab at NZ PM (another copyright violator?)
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-03/kim-dotcom-challenges-new-zealand-spy-laws/4798006

  37. “Snowden was stitched up into flying to Moscow. ”

    Well it was Wikileaks who facilitated and arranged Snowden’s flight to Moscow, they who issued the suspect non-American-English statement purporting to have come from him and who are allegedly obstructing communication between Edward Snowden and his father. I’d hate to accuse them of exploiting Snowden for their own ends but…

    Interestingly whilst the Austrians claim to have searched the president’s plane the Bolivians deny any search took place; France and Spain also deny blocking the plane from entering their airspace.

    One day we might find out what the hell IS going on.

  38. We need to bear arms.

  39. Reporters Without Borders & WikiLeaks co-sign op-ed calling for EU to protect Snowden

    http://en.rsf.org/why-european-nations-must-protect-03-07-2013,44886.html

  40. Kempe, Wikileaks has been on the defensive ever since the summer of 2010 when it posted the Afghan Log, what Gareth Williams and Gudrun Loftus had put together and given it, without redacting names of those involved – what resulted in his brutal murder, and then hers when she tried to take up his cause. Astrophisicist Steve Rawlings followed them when he tried to determine St. John’s College, Oxford Dr. Sivia’s role in her murder.

    Certainly, Wikileaks did not try to stitch up Snowden by helping him go to Russia as Putin is more aware of what happened and more inclined to help than the Chinese but has nothing to gain by helping to promote the release of his disclosures.

    The Bolivian fiasco just shows what control Washington has over Snowden going almost anywhere now, leaving Obama with the puny, false claim about it not requiring the scrambling of fighters.

  41. @Arbed
    Now will people believe that the UK DID try to storm the Ecuadorian embassy in London last year, just ahead of Ecuador granting Assange asylum?

    I keep an open mind on it. Intimidation may have been a main aim.

    I was up until 5am that night watching the livestream from the embassy and there were groups of police officers entering through windows round the side of the building.

    Sounds like they took that route so as to get into an internal fire escape connecting several of the flats, including the embassy.

    Someone should keep video of stuff like this and post it up publicly.

    Craig told us at the time, he heard from Foreign Office colleagues that it had been planned for 3 weeks because of DIRECT pressure on Cameron and Hague from Washington/Obama.

    I wouldn’t believe every story that Foreign Office officials put out through Craig. They are capable of…well….you know…LYING THEIR SHITTY QUEEN-AND-COUNTRY PANTS OFF.

    And Craig, being mortal, is capable of being misled.

    Ecuador’s Foreign Minister announced last night they found a listening device in the London embassy during his visit to Assange last month.

    Hold the front page! :-)

    “They say they are announcing which country it belonged to this morning.

    Doesn’t seem that they did, though. It is unfortunate that they cannot simply shut their embassy in London, or even close the British embassy in Quito, which would provoke a tit-for-tat closure. While I am not sure whether the Brits were about to storm the embassy last year, I am pretty sure that if Ecuador plays the ‘diplomatic courier’ card, appointing Assange to that role and taking the position that he should then enjoy personal inviolability (which seems very clear under article 27.5-6 of the Vienna Convention, and note that diplomatic couriers, unlike diplomats, do not need to be accredited by a host country), the Brits and their masters from across the Atlantic (whether they much burgers or bagels) will show about as much respect for the Vienna Convention as they have been showing for the Geneva Conventions which are supposed to govern the treatment of POWs.

    I doubt that any hierarchical organisation is going to come out of the latest affair smelling of roses.

    And that includes those who already stink of AIPAC every second of the day, such as all but a handful of US senators. That said, actions such as the release of NSA information and the expulsion of USAID officials from Bolivia are to be welcomed unequivocally.

    One possibility here is the imminent eruption of very big problems with international trade. That was always going to be a feature of the inevitable economic collapse.

  42. Message from the people to Edward Snowden:

    “Thank you, Mr Snowden, for informing us of the activities of the NSA and GCHQ (ie, the USA and UK). You must understand that this information is unsettling to us, even though for many it’s only confirmation of what was suspected.

    We all have lives to lead, mortgages to pay, children to feed. We need to be able to continue with our lives for as long as we can. We don’t want the sack or ostracisation for speaking out (look what happened to you!).

    Thank you again, but,

    WE DON’T WANT TO KNOW”

    ——————————————

    “First they came for the whistleblowers…”

  43. @Kempe 1.25pm
    @ Trowbridge 1.51pm

    Good points!

    Trow, have you had a look at the death of John Tiley at Cambridge University yet? He was the top tax law academic in the country. He fell to his death from the roof of a building at the law faculty 4 days ago.

    He backed the introduction of a “general anti-avoidance rule”. Anyone who knows Britain will know that such a thing would be a complete dead letter as far as the big boys are concerned, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t conflicts.

    The police say they aren’t treating the death as suspicious.

    His wife Jillinda says he gave absolutely no indication that anything was wrong. “It just beggars belief”.

    Nonetheless, Jillinda puts queen and country first, and is quoted as speculating “whether her husband had suffered a stroke or had found out about a medical problem.”

    Yes, or perhaps he leaned over too far when admiring the view.

  44. Let’s hear no Russopobhia here, especially conspiracy theories at Putin’s expense, when the Bolivian President plane fiasco is showing what a genius he is, and what criminal assholes are leaders are,

  45. neorefusenik

    3 Jul, 2013 - 2:30 pm

    The NATO/EU satellites have about as much autonomy as the Warsaw pact and they will escape from their hegemon in the same general way. Tensions in the Warsaw Pact were not diplomatic disputes with Soviet Russia but divergent approaches to repressing the population. NATO has nothing to worry about until public outrage starts toppling regimes. The litmus test for a genuinely new regime is a state that either repudiates odious debt or formally denounces NATO per charter Article 13.

    There’s plenty of popular support for both but the subject populations can probably be kept down in the absence of a transmission medium for principled opposition. When the Warsaw Pact was decaying, the transmission medium was the Helsinki Final Act and the charter movements.

    So where might the impetus come from now? Candidates include UNESCO’s culture of peace and the various occupation movements, which interpenetrate – but rights and rule of law are very muted in the occupy movements, presumably because UNESCO wants to subordinate doctrine to organization. UNCTAD’s right to development is another institutional initiative but it gets no traction in the NATO bloc.

    The peace and development initiatives are saying the same thing: austerity is violence and repression is violence just as war is violence; peace and development are just the sum of all human rights. The new charter is out there, offering instant legitimacy to anyone who picks it up.

  46. Excellent post, Craig.

    If, as some commenters are suggesting, there has been a concerted effort to close off NATO airspace to Morales on the hunch that Snowden was on board, this’ll seriously compromise any future attempts the latter may make to reach sanctuary in a Latin American country. It also represents a real upping of the ante by the septics.

    Faced with this sort of pressure, Putin as well may have blinked a couple of days ago in his press conference, in which he asked Snowden to desists from ‘anti American activities’. Interestingly, that still leaves the Chinese standing up to Uncle Sam- and if any country has the wherewithal to stare the US down, it’s them.

    The odds on Snowden taking a return flight to HK soon could be shortening quite a bit today.

  47. N_ said;

    Indented/quoted

    Dropping is an age old favourite of the CIA, and by default the favourite of the satellite franchise of the the said illustrious organization, that even Truman after signing it into existence, became pretty disturbed by its putative “evolution” to the lawless firm that it was heading to become.

    Poor Gabby Rado in sulaymaniyah was dropped also, he had pretty damning evidence of the US B52 carpet bombing the Iraqi forces in that area.

    However remembering Terry Lloyd and his French cameraman Frédéric Nérac also among the list of the murdered for their intent on “whistle blowing”/reporting (unlike the embeds) on the hell on Earth that US created during its invasion of Iraq.

    - – - – -
    Flaming June said;

    I used to be jeered at for speaking of the rise of fascism. It is creeping in, invisible to many.

    Come on girl, we all know, and as Hollywood has taught us all; Fascists always wear jackboots, sport a moustache, clicking their heels at sighting any women, and heilling each other as they sip their Champagne, and talk animatedly and in foreign tongues about world domination. None of the current batch of lunatics, spivs, and carpetbaggers exhibit these traits, do they?

  48. @Neorefusenik

    “Transmission”?

    Hello Kautsky and Lenin (‘injection of consciousness’), Bordiga (‘transmission belt’), or take it back to Chernyshevsky’s ‘Bell’ (Kolokol) later appearing as Lenin’s ‘Spark’ (Iskra). It’s all the same idea.

    I respect your good intentions, but you are looking for a “revolution” to be made by ‘nice’ middle class professionals leading a movement of public opinion.

    Things just don’t happen that way. Not if the word ‘revolution’ is to be used in a genuine sensem that is. Do you really like what’s happened in East-Central Europe? Adverts and ‘how much?’ all over the place, as increasing numbers of people fall through whatever passed for a social safety net.

    Things don’t happen that way

    EITHER in working class revolutions (which with a few exceptions, such as Spain in 1936 and in various places in 1968, are brought about by the fear of starvation),

    OR in the pro-US fake shit which went on in East-Central Europe in 1989 and has been going on in various Arab countries recently.

    The idea of a movement occupying buildings and spaces is great (so the police are preventing access to one building? fine, so go and take the building down the road; we are many; they are few), but unfortunately the notion of ‘occupy’ has been spectacularised (hello ‘Zeitgeist’), as have terms such as ‘Big Brother’ and ‘Room 101′. The ruling class are ahead of us, it has to be said.

    If there’s one thing the CIA know, it’s how to run a ‘colour revolution’.

  49. It should be

    N_ said;

    perhaps he leaned over too far when admiring the view.

  50. Thanks, N.., certainly sounds fishy, and I shall look into it.

    Wonder if he, like Rawlings, was asking too many questions about what was going around Oxbridge.

    It’s clearly open season on any possible trouble.makers, as I well know by narrowly escaping assassination last Thursday night at about 12:40 PM. If I had only stood up when the killer with a beam light, laser pistol shined it into the window next to my bed, I wouldn’t be doing this.

  51. And credit to Craig for his unambiguous witness. Excellent post.

    I remember echelon, spying on each other’s population, being public knowledge decades ago.

    The first wikipedia entry for echelon included:

    “…critics claim the system is also being used for crass commercial theft and a brutal invasion of privacy on a staggering scale.”

    “…one of the many new arrows in the intelligence community’s quiver, along with increasingly sophisticated bugging and interception techniques, satellite tracking, through-clothing scanning, automatic fingerprinting and recognition systems that can recognize genes, odours or retina patterns.”

    “Echelon is a name for one of the largest spy networks in history. It can capture nearly every telephone call, fax and e-mail message sent anywhere in the world. There are estimates that it intercepts up to 3 billion communications everyday. Participating countries: [[United States]], [[United Kingdom|UK]], [[Canada]], [[Australia]], and [[New Zealand]].”

    That was in 2001. None of these lines remain in today’s entry. Which starts with:

    “ECHELON is a name used in global media and in popular culture to describe a signals intelligence (SIGINT) collection and analysis network”

    Comparing historical versions of wikipedia’s echelon entry is possibly watching the slow, choking grip of pr.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=ECHELON&diff=561743525&oldid=368157188

  52. @ Conjunction: “Obama often speaks as if .. the USA is the benefactor of and main holder of wisdom amongst mankind.”
    You mean you didn’t know that? :)

  53. Arbed, at 12.27 p.m. I believe it that our police did try to storm the Ecuadorian Embassy in London. Steve Elibank made an FOI request about a memo sent to the government of Ecuador a note (unofficial) on 15 August 2012 from the British Embassy in Quito. It contained the following.

    “We have to reiterate that we consider continued use of diplomatic premises in this way, to be incompatible with the VCDR and not sustainable, and that we have already made clear to you the serious implications for our diplomatic relations.

    You should be aware that there is a legal basis in the UK – the Diplomatic and Consular Premises Act 1987 – which would allow us to take action to arrest Mr. Assange in the current premises of the Embassy.

    We very much hope not to get to this point, but if you cannot resolve the issue of Mr. Assange’s presence on your premises, this route is open to us.”

    https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/assange#incoming-313501

  54. All eyes are on Maduro -

    http://diariodecaracas.com/mundo/maduro-podria-traer-edward-snowden-en-su-avion-venezuela

    English summary:

    http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023157514

    The route home might take a bit of calculation, I’d guess.

  55. Flaming June

    3 Jul, 2013 - 4:15 pm

    O/T but this is terrible. It is about the loss of law in Syria and its replacement with Sharia law.

    There are two parts – the shooting in the head twice of a 14 year old boy by one of the rabbles in Aleppo. He had refused to give a free cup of coffee and made a joke about the Prophet returning.

    The second part is filmed in Saraqeb. It is of a flogging, fifty times with an electric cable, for the ring leader of a gang who had tried to steal a taxi driver’s car. The sentence followed a ‘hearing’ in a ‘Sharia court’. The others received forty lashes.

    These people are allies of Messrs Cameron and Hague and the video should be shown to all those MPs and others who express support for these rabbles and for arming them further.

    The boy killed for an off-hand remark about Muhammad – Sharia spreads in Syria
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23139784

    I am amazed that the BBC have carried this.

  56. They may be fundamentalist terrorist bastards but they’re our fundamentalist terrorist bastards, eh?

  57. AFAICS, no-one has explained that the Graun article was simply a summation of Madsen’s interview with a blog called Privacy Surgeon. Madsen there actually gives the geographical locations of all the British and European interception stations which serve the NSA:
    http://www.privacysurgeon.org/blog/incision/former-nsa-contractor-warns-of-murky-interception-arrangements/

  58. http://www.zeit.de/datenschutz/malte-spitz-data-retention/

    Green party politician Malte Spitz sued to have German telecoms giant Deutsche Telekom hand over six months of his phone data that he then made available to ZEIT ONLINE. We combined this geolocation data with information relating to his life as a politician, such as Twitter feeds, blog entries and websites, all of which is all freely available on the internet.

    By pushing the play button, you will set off on a trip through Malte Spitz’s life. The speed controller allows you to adjust how fast you travel, the pause button will let you stop at interesting points. In addition, a calendar at the bottom shows when he was in a particular location and can be used to jump to a specific time period. Each column corresponds to one day.

  59. neorefusaniki

    3 Jul, 2013 - 4:50 pm

    You said revolution, not me, N_, and as you point out, there was nothing Marxist about the dissolution of COMECON and the Warsaw Pact, which was merely a nice first step. Human rights is considerably more subversive than Marxism/Leninism and NATO was lucky to get it under control. My question was, can you dust it off to use against the other totalitarian regime, the one that took over where the Soviets left off?

    Sure, CIA knows how to run a putsch, but they wouldn’t dare use human rights to start one. They’re scared of human rights. CIA was very nervous when Carter glommed onto human rights and they pushed back against Germany’s enthusiasm for Helsinki Final Act Point VII. They wanted predictable ‘stability’ as much as the Soviets did. And even now CIA assets like Otpor make a point of telling you that human rights is bullshit.

    So we’re talking apples & oranges.

  60. Flaming June

    3 Jul, 2013 - 4:52 pm

    Morsi and others are under house arrest and a military coup is under way according to Sky’s Tim Marshall who is a fair and well informed reporter in my opinion.

  61. Another great article Craig. Thanks for all the great links Arbed, John Goss and Passerby.

    A N_ said, its not going be the middle class spurning change, but the young disaffected long term unemployed, the ‘cuts’ generation.

    Those young who persuade themselves that this world of many is still a good bet to raise a family and play society, will get further disaffected.

    Whether they will have the gumption or zest of the Egyptians is questionable. What we are seeing is that any opposition that is forming today, to any of their major policies or politi, is being instantly divided, infiltrated by undercover police who can’t keep it in, and split by their efforts.

    Any change will come rapid, as Tunesia it will be an emotionally moving issue and it will be startling to see.

    All those who still think everything is fine will wake up and hopefully realise that we are approaching the worst, a pseudo democratic, fascist dictatorship.

  62. F.June wrote:

    I am amazed that the BBC have carried this.

    Why? It fits their running mad muslims narrative, never mind the fact the madder they are the more closely allied to UK, US and Israeli hegemonic control aims throughout the region. Do you think the average reader or viewer will connect the perpetrators of these outrages with Hague and Cameron’s pet rebels, kept in cash, weapons and mind-bending ultimately fatal pharmaceuticals at Brit taxpayers expense?

    Religion in adults is of course a clear manifestation of mental disorder, but in no way is this observation limited to the muslim faith alone.

    Quite separately. It also has to be considered that NATO is now very much out of control and a menace to public safety; the EU too, long a political and economic partner to NATO is fully exposed as a subsidiary organisation of the US-run military alliance, a costly gargantuan public relations exercise glossing over naked US control over western Europe.

    There is not an institution, from UK domestic parliament, government and law, to international organisations, culminating in the UN, that is fit for purpose. Extremely aggressive mass de-population (of us too, not just faraway dark-skinned foreigners) whilst populations are still numerous enough to represent a threat to the elites and their demonic agenda, seems an obvious next step, if it is not already underway and well-advanced.

  63. Really does look like a suicide at first glance, given the wife’s attempt to explain it away as at best a physical surprise, and police having no interest in suspecting foul play.

    Looks like he might have been blackmailed or too guilty about something still publicly unknown.

  64. Another point about Madsen. They would say that he’s a maverick, its obvious.
    Exactly because he’s been a maverick does not mean he’s not right for once, but its convenient to call him that, to be expected as it is part of their repertoire to misinform and split opinions, infamy has always had its jealous detractors.

  65. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 5:07 pm

    Craig; Thanks for undertaking the subject. However, I think you are being little hard on Guardian.

    They seem to have followed the NSA disclosures pretty well, as opposed to the other paper receiving the scoop, WaPo. I think the concern arises from Madsens background and it seems having some credibility in a world declaring in near unison that Snowden should be apprehended and tried. Just my two cents.

  66. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 5:09 pm

    edit;

    ‘having credibility in the face of a world declaring in near unison that Snowden should be apprehended and tried, is extremely essential at this stage of the game. Just my two cents.

  67. Y@Neorefusenik

    You said revolution, not me, N_,”

    Yep – sorry about that. I realised after I’d posted that my use of inverted commas could make it look as if I was (wrongly) quoting you, which I wasn’t trying to do! I should have rewritten, in at least some places replacing the word ‘revolution’ with maybe ‘popular upsurge’, or some term we could both accept as accurately summarising the kind of thing you were talking about. So, apologies for putting words into your mouth here!

    “Human rights is considerably more subversive than Marxism/Leninism and NATO was lucky to get it under control. My question was, can you dust it off to use against the other totalitarian regime, the one that took over where the Soviets left off?”

    This is not the place for me to go on at length about the gulf between Marx and Lenin, but there is an enormous one.

    But the role you give to the subversive power of already-formed ideas (can I say ideologies?)…I don’t agree with that. Ideas that assist with popular movements bringing about radical change have got to come out of people’s experiences and their growing awareness of what those experiences are about. I mean the proletarianised existence of the vast majority, maybe 80% of the population. The culture at the moment is so deeply schizoid; there has to be a massive rejection; it can’t have the truth injected into it, to be nurtured and grow within it, even conflictually. I don’t really want more people to watch the TV news; it wouldn’t be a big step forward. I would say human dignity is a more useful idea than human rights in the usual sense, or the ‘rights of man’ as they used to be called. ‘Human rights’ is a soiled term. If a movement opposed them to the rights of property, things would be a bit better, though.

  68. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live

    Jim Roberts of Reuters quotes Sacha Llorenti Soliz, the Bolivian ambassador to the UN, as also using the charged term “kidnapped” to describe the aeroplane incident. (The Bolivian vice president, Alvaro Garcia, said overnight that Evo Morales had been “kidnapped by imperialiam“.)

    Bolivia’s UN Amb.: “We’re talking about the president on an official trip after an official summit being kidnappedhttp://t.co/weqLOi1VAP
    — Jim Roberts (@nycjim) July 3, 2013

  69. Better way to describe what happened to the Bolivian President’s plane is that it was HIJACKED!

    Looks like our so-called counter terrorists have turned into the real thing in spades.

  70. who in the world says that Snowden should be apprehended and tried Ben? would it be all those who signed petitions thanking him for disclosing their fascists traits?
    or is it just those who are beginning to realise that their own operations will be highlighted, not just that of the all knowing super-owl US.

    If Snowden is cornered and imprisoned, the real extend of this release will not see the light of day. Snowden knew this, why else disperse the material to journalists such as GG?
    He has a safety lever somewhere and the US, and its best bitch, Putin, sorry, couldn’t resist, know that they can’t get to it. Snowden has not accepted Putins deal, and the material that is out there is being held back by the Guardian and Spiegel, I’m sure of it.

    If he has sent it to the paper in electronic form, it would have been intercepted and the extend of his spying is already known.

    But the US says that they are unsure about the extent of his release of taxpayer paid for information, so he must have sent the lot by post, or handed it over to middle men.

    Still the world is focussing on the person of Snowden, nobody cares a flying fart as to what he actually has released and what the nature of it is.

  71. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 5:51 pm

    “or is it just those who are beginning to realise that their own operations will be highlighted, not just that of the all knowing super-owl US.”

    I think you have the same elements in the UK. Bloggers cover this with snark, or objectivity?

    In the US it’s the Obamabots versus their derogation ‘firebaggers’. The Obots are so highly invested in Obama they don’t want to spoil his Xmas pudding, (his leagacy).

    Then there’s Congress, whose sleepy tenure (or worse, knowingly complicit) are all worried about their careers in politics.

    More disclosures need to be made from the Powerpoint to make some critical mass. All there is is speculation and finger-pointing. We need some real juice to get this Full Monty.

  72. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 5:56 pm

    Trowbridge: HIJACKED is what Samuel Clemons called ‘Lightning’ as the perfect word, as opposed to the near perfect ‘lightning bug’ word.

  73. This is bound to go to the UN after UNASUR.

    Ideally the ALBA countries would break off relations with the US and all of its military allies. That’s what I’d like to see: a derecognition of the US regime, by an increasing number of the world’s countries; formal steps to dissociate from it and to impose sanctions on it as the criminal entity that it is. Let’s recall this is not the first time that Bolivia stands as an example for the world.

    However, this would mean a lot of embassies closing, and I wouldn’t fancy Julian Assange’s chances.

    So…was the plane searched?

    RT are reporting that the Austrian authorities grounded it and ‘decided’ to search it, which I don’t think they have any right to do, under international law, unless permission is given. (I may be mistaken on this point. I thought a presidential plane, carrying a head of state on a diplomatic mission, counted as extra-territorial.) RT are further reporting that Morales did give permission for a search.

    Another point: what terribly poor surveillance they must have at (mafia-controlled) Sheremetevo airport, if there could be any confusion about whether or not Snowden boarded the plane. Are they suggesting that he and his associates wanted to make it look as though he boarded the plane, or may have done, whereas in fact he didn’t? Fiendishly resourceful people, eh, to outwit the FSB, formerly known as the KGB?

    Because how on earth were Russian security unable to confirm that no, Snowden did not board the plane, unless they were deceived?

    Was there a little bit of corridor between the men’s toilet and the door through which Morales’s baggage was moved out to the plane, uncovered by any camera? Were the FSB unable to ascertain whether Snowden had had a case of the runs which required several hours on the pot (maybe they thought it would be indecent to look over the cubicle doors?), or, on the other hand, whether he’d made a quick dash across the corridor to hide among the suitcases before they were taken into the plane’s hold? Or what? As usual, it doesn’t stack up.

    If Russian security thought he might have got onto the plane, they’d have gone looking for him at the airport. Yes, even in the toilets.

    What we do know, and I’m repeating myself here, is that major problems may soon beset world trade.

  74. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 6:08 pm

    N_; They were given permission to search by the Bolivians. It’s a false security, because it’s similar to a search warrant they send out for, while they keep you in custody they prevent anything from being removed, until the warrant arrives. In this case they refused to allow their departure until permission given.

  75. My Goodness, but the Bolivians are steaming… This is the speech their VP, Alvaro Garcia Linero, gave last night, surrounded by the entire Bolivian cabinet (rush translation into English):

    https://hiredknaves.wordpress.com/2013/07/03/bolivian-vice-president-alvaro-garcia-linera-today-certain-countries-of-europe-are-subjected-to-the-most-terrible-ignominious-obscurantism/

    “it is no longer the time of empires, because it is not the time of colonies; today is the time of peoples, today is the time of dignity.”

    Love that line! :)

  76. So are the Germans, Arbed, absolutely fuming.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/secret-documents-nsa-targeted-germany-and-eu-buildings-a-908609.html

    has anybody heard of Clarke, he’s not answering my emails, last I knew was that he’s fixing computers, saying that he’s going to be ‘as quick as he can’.

    let us know he’s OK.

  77. @Ben, I wouldn’t be so sure about any aspect of this.

    Certainly if Russian security thought someone might have flown off on a plane, but weren’t sure, and it was important to them, they’d search the airport.

    If Edward Snowden is ‘free’ in the transit area, airside, then presumably he is communicating with people who are following news reports, and he has access to them himself, so I wonder why he hasn’t at any time said publicly “Hey everyone, here I still am in Moscow; I’m not on anyone’s plane!”

    We don’t know whether he is at Sheremetevo or where he is.

    Nor do we know whether he is at liberty, even in the restricted sense of being able to walk around an airport transit area.

    We do know that Obama implied that US forces wouldn’t kidnap Snowden if he flew over US territory on his way to Cuba, and today’s events should make it clear to those to whom it wasn’t already clear that that was a dirty lie by the head of state of a criminal regime which rejoices in sticking two fingers up at international law.

  78. The European Commission could solve many of these problems by granting Snowden asylum in Brussels, and appointing him to the EU-USA Joint Committee to investigate all the problems Anglo-American data-mining is causing US-EU trade relations.

    He certainly is well informed about what has been going on, and by giving him asylum, it would tale his whereabouts, criminality, and safety out of the picture.

  79. Enlarging on my earlier terse comment.

    It is the religions and forms of religions which posit that they and their fellow followers are better, superior, morally or in any number of ways, or more doctrinally correct in their own interpretation of their own ‘big magic book’ than those of of another religion or of no religion, that are particularly dangerous in themselves and dangerous in that they can be used for nefarious indirect ends. The British state (formerly known as England) has always used religious extremists and extremism in this way, from John Knox in 16thC Scotland to protestant settlers in Ireland, to the present Syrian rebels, in a way ‘religifying’ disputes and issues about sovereignty, equality, freedom of conscience and freedom from external influences and control; adding destabilising irrationality and fear to matters which would otherwise be clear cut external interference and rejected overwhelmingly as detrimental and insulting to the populace at large in the target country or region, without the impenetratable religious fog and smokescreen masking such machinations as well as providing a recourse for the weak of mind as well as the calculating and exploitative to fall into predictable and thus controllable lines of (self) division. “Isms and Schisms”.

  80. doug scorgie

    3 Jul, 2013 - 8:07 pm

    Kempe
    3 Jul, 2013 – 10:41 am

    More Troll shite Kempe:

    “Sorry if I have this wrong but I thought Diplomatic Immunity guaranteed free passage and immunity from prosecution to particular individuals. Snowden is not an acredited [sic] diplomat so does not have immunity from arrest.”

    A deliberate misrepresentation of Craig’s post which had nothing to do with diplomatic immunity for Snowden.

  81. The US pretty much have copied Israel’s operation methods. Deny everything, ignore International Law and accuse anyone who disagrees with them as being terrorists… And we support their insane policies.
    And as for what they try to tar Wayne Madsen with, its just the same as they do with all whistle blowers.Blacken their names, make whatever they say sound conspiratorial and keep them as media clowns to continually take the piss out of.
    I’ve read quite a bit of his stuff. He seems to be a very analytical bulldog. Doesn’t let go.I’ve no way of knowing if what he says is true, but quite a few things so far have been.

  82. Craig,

    Its all old news!.

    “EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT Session document”

    11 July 2001

    “This report makes an important point in emphasising that Echelon does exist, but it stops short of drawing political conclusions. It is hypocritical for the European Parliament to criticise the Echelon interception practice while taking part in plans to establish a European Secret Service.”

    http://cryptome.org/echelon-ep-fin.htm

  83. “NSA/GCHQ – The New Praetorians and the New Cold War”

    http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2013/07/nsagchq-the-new-praetorians/

  84. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 8:34 pm

  85. One little itsy bitsy point is going missing in all the comments so far;

    How did the incompetent US spy apparatus that is so good at spying on anyone who talks on the phone, or types on the internet, somehow get the wrong end of the stick (thinking Snowden is secreted on the plane) and put the word out about Evo’s ride ?

    Also of interest is how quick the toadies jumped into action by denying their air space, and how come Austria was chosen? Also why has Austria shown such a contempt for Bolivia?. Clearly someone is playing the whole bally lot of these bully and coattail hangers thereof for chumps, and wank hands.

    However, no doubt the decision for interdiction of Evo’s ride and subsequent search of it further highlights that this decision ought to have been taken at the highest authority levels. Thus who is the tosser now? This has so far been kept secret.

    Although there could exist the theory that pre-emptive sucker punching poor Evo, has been designed in the way of proving how earnestly US is chasing its fugitive, in a fashion after Wyatt Earp and Doc Halliday. This episode is in fact an attempt to warn anyone who may be entertaining the idea of helping Snowden.

    Finally we didn’t get here into this lawless world today , without the assiduous disregard of the laws, convention, treaties, and morality by zionistan for the last seven decades. The current state of the lawlessness could only have been possible, and so prevalent by the ziofuckwits running amok and making lawlessness so acceptable, and tolerable.

  86. I hope the silver lining to all this is that the South American countries will come together to find a solution to Snowden and present it as a joint solution so that the eventual country is not singled out for persecution. I can imagine that once settled a Russian military plane could render him to his asylum. Belarus is now being mentioned as a possible host.

    I’d love to know the contents of the Correa-Biden call. Could it be that Assange’s safe passage was discussed? Since Correa seems so satisfied with that call.

  87. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 8:50 pm

  88. @Someone (8:25pm)

    A bit slow on the uptake then the EU Parliament: New Zealander Nicky Hager layed out ECHELON in excruciating painstaking detail in his 1996 book Secret Power, focusing mainly on the NZ side of operations, and made it clear too that it targetted diplomatic communications as well served US commercial espionage ends, subverted legitimate governments and made regular enough forays into civilian chatter as to be a grave concern to everyone, everywhere. Duncan Campbell had been plugging away at the subject for at least a decade before that, as well as other closely related subjects from the Zircon and other spy satellites to the useless, ineffectual first version of the UK Data Protection Act. I think Craig Murray pointed in a recent blog post that something like ECHELON dates back to the the 1940s, having roots in US-UK WW2 joint activities and was common knowledge in diplomatic and government particularly for many decades. The current programs are like echelon on stilts and echelon is bottom rung old hat.

  89. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 8:57 pm

    This is not good news….

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-digital-misuse-ban-ki-moon

    “The former NSA contractor Edward Snowden misused his right to digital access and has created problems that outweigh the benefits of public disclosure, the UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon has said.

    Speaking to a gathering of the foreign affairs committee of the Icelandic parliament in Reykjavik on Tuesday, Ban said that in his personal opinion “the Snowden case is something I consider to be misuse.” The UN chief added that the opening up of digital communications should not be “misused in such a way as Snowden did”.

  90. 24 January 2012

    “Google announces privacy changes across products; users can’t opt out”

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2837288/posts

  91. You apparently know the answer to your own question – i.e. the incompetent American spooks, despite all their machinery to help them out, guessed wrong about Snowden’s whereabouts, like when they guessed that they could get rid of the USSR by simply triggering Palme’s assassination or when the planned to get rid of Castro’s Cuba at JFK’s expense.

    As for Austria’s role, it has been in America’s pocket ever since the departure of the Red Army. Don’t forget that the Mad Austrian aka Josef Fritzl was set up first as Palme’s assassin.

    As for tossers now, I would look along NATO’s covert Gladio line from Stockholm to Vienna. Sweden’s FRA is the biggest eavesdropping asset it has on the continent.

  92. Doug Scorgie

    ….Snowden is not an acredited [sic] diplomat so does not have immunity from arrest

    Thanks for making me laugh, I nearly choked on my apple:

    Although you are being so charitable calling the “illustrious contributor” a troll. An asshat is a more appropriate terminology.

    The point you have picked clearly shows he/she has no fucking clue and has not read Craig’s post (this post is not about an obscure and highly specialist field) , however in its haste bashing the keyboard trying to earn a couple more pennies, seeing as it gets paid for the linage, by hasbara dept.

  93. Cryptonym,

    You can bet that Echelon has been upgraded, it still plays a big part of a greater whole that has many, many parts to it.

  94. Jesus, Ben, that’s weird.

  95. That was to Ben at 8.50pm

  96. I would look along NATO’s covert Gladio line from Stockholm to Vienna. Sweden’s FRA is the biggest eavesdropping asset it has on the continent.

    Thanks for the heads up.

    The mechanics:

    How come US came by the information about Snowden being on the plane? ie Clearly the US assets in Russia should command a high credibility for the US to kick in to action the stop and search procedure. However, the reverse could be also true; a flimsy passing remark has been picked up by the US, and taken to be true.

  97. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 9:38 pm

    Christian Science Monitor

    “Since Morsi’s election, the US has been oddly supportive of Morsi, muted in its criticism even when his government has prosecuted American NGO workers dispatched to Egypt to work on democracy promotion. Though the message of the Obama administration this week has been that “democracy” is about far more than elections, for much of the past year it has given the opposite impression.”

    Weird is exactly right, Dreoilin.

  98. My guess would be that Putin had his spooks put out messages about what Snowden et al were up to – what FRA picked up, and sent along to its Gladio contacts who got France, Portugal and Austria involved.

    Bildt is obsessed in gaining points with the tossers because of what FRA can do.

  99. “a flimsy passing remark has been picked up by the US, and taken to be true.”

    They have a bug or bugs in the transit area at Sheremetyevo airport and heard something that gave them hysterics – someone threw a freaker. And sent out the word to Europe, STOP THAT PLANE!

    (and no, I’m not joking – when you ‘run the world’, the last thing you’re thinking about when trying to catch a leaker is what’s legal or what’s acceptable under the Vienna Convention. Vienna what?)

    I sincerely hope UNASUR kick up blue holy murder.

  100. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 9:52 pm

    Ok, ok. It was just a big international misunderstanding resulting in the re-routing of the flight to Austria, where they wouldn’t allow it to depart until searched….all is forgiven.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2013/07/edward-snowden-asylum-93694.html

  101. Someone – 9:02 pm

    Scrooo Google! I use https://ixquick.com/uk/ and have deleted any and all “accounts” online, other than gravatar and my Irish email.

  102. doug scorgie

    3 Jul, 2013 - 10:05 pm

    Trowbridge H. Ford
    3 Jul, 2013 – 2:58 pm

    “Thanks, N.., certainly sounds fishy, and I shall look into it.”
    “Wonder if he, like Rawlings, was asking too many questions about what was going around Oxbridge.”

    “It’s clearly open season on any possible trouble.makers, as I well know by narrowly escaping assassination last Thursday night at about 12:40 PM. If I had only stood up when the killer with a beam light, laser pistol shined it into the window next to my bed, I wouldn’t be doing this.”

    Another imposter post???

  103. Nah, Doug, he’s 008, semi-retired.

  104. Trowbridge, do you have any ideas on how this Snowden situation might have a connection, however tenuous, with the disappearance of Harold Holt?

  105. Who is the imposter poster, Doug Scorgie, N..for asking me if there is in the alleged suicide some foul play, or me for stating it looked fishy, would investigate, and did so – concluding that Professr JohnTiler apparently committed suicide for unknown reasons?

    Or am I alone the Imposter poster for claiming that I was almost assassinated – what I have complained about to the FBi for trying to set me up for something, and going to the police here three times, the last time to 911 which has apparently provided officer Bryce to keep an eye on where I live?

    Which is it?

  106. Oh, I see others have joined in to discredit me.

    I am no one’s spook, and am completely retired.

    And Jemand, if you tried to tie it to Gough Whitlam’s political disappearance, it might be worth answering,

    You guys will have to work harder to be taken as serious trolls.

  107. “Or am I alone the Imposter poster for claiming that I was almost assassinated – what I have complained about to the FBi for trying to set me up for something, and going to the police here three times, the last time to 911 which has apparently provided officer Bryce to keep an eye on where I live?”

    Actually it was because you thought 12:40 PM was night that got me wondering.

  108. doug scorgie

    3 Jul, 2013 - 10:40 pm

    Flaming June
    3 Jul, 2013 – 4:15 pm

    “The boy killed for an off-hand remark about Muhammad – Sharia spreads in Syria”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23139784

    “I am amazed that the BBC have carried this.”

    Don’t be amazed Mary. If its from the BBC its from MI6

    This appalling activity is not Sharia law

    Don’t be taken in

  109. As for you, Fred, you will have to provide more than a miscalculation in typing the time,12:40 AM, to make out I am nuts.

    And the earlier threat was at around 12:30 AM Tuesday.

    One apparently has to have everything perfect to be simply ignored on this site.

  110. “As for you, Fred, you will have to provide more than a miscalculation in typing the time,12:40 AM, to make out I am nuts. ”

    I didn’t say anything about nuts. Just thought you might be an imposter that’s all.

    What makes you think you are nuts?

  111. “What’s a £1 billion fraud worth? A suspended sentence”

    http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2013/07/03/whats-a-1-billion-fraud-worth-a-suspended-sentence/

  112. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 11:07 pm

    @ Someone (20h25), who regales us with :

    ““EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT Session document”

    11 July 2001

    “This report makes an important point in emphasising that Echelon does exist, but it stops short of drawing political conclusions. It is hypocritical for the European Parliament to criticise the Echelon interception practice while taking part in plans to establish a European Secret Service.””
    _________________

    Sorry for correcting a post which might otherwise give a misleading impression (purely innocently, I’M SURE), but the above quotation is not from the Main Report of the EP’s Temporary Committee on the ECHELON Interception System but from one of the several Minority Reports appended to the Main Report, signed by 2 members of the full 34 member Committee (Patricia Mc Kenna and Ilka Schroeder.

    These words do not, of course, appear in the Resolution adopted by the European Parliament pursuant to the Report.

    Just thought I’d clear that up for the edification of the reading public :)

  113. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 11:10 pm

    @ Fred and Trowbridge:

    I know you are not trolls and would hate to see you being accused of being such. So please stop this silly mini-quarrel and stop disrupting this thread.

    Thank you!

  114. [Jon/Mod: removed, abusive]

  115. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 11:13 pm

    “Thank you!”

    Pot/Kettle

  116. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 11:16 pm

    President Morales is a blusterer and I predict that he will find some very good reason for very regrettably not delivering on his offer of asylum.

    I further predict that his fellow El Presidente, Rafeal Correa, is at this very moment thinking furiously about how to retreat gracefully – and also very regrettably, from his bluster in the matter of Julian Assange.

    I fear that some of the regulars on here will soon have to be looking for new heroes.

  117. Dreoilin

    ixquick/startpage seem to be secure search engines if you believe them. Of course they could be a front for some spooks but even if they are the worst that’s happened is you’ve cut out the middle-man (Google) so I can’t see any harm in using it (and I do among others).

    If you use ixquick/startpage via https then your search terms won’t be flying down the wires in clear text for anyone to see. If the spooks have obtained their private encryption keys though then they’ll be decoding all that traffic in real time. Normal https security is no security at all if the watcher steals or buys the private key.

    Which brings me to Diffie-Hellman key negotiation also known as “(perfect) forward security”. All modern browsers support this but very few web sites use it. With Diffie-Hellman even if the spooks have the private key and monitor the entire connection they cannot normally decode your encrypted transmission by any known method. – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffie%E2%80%93Hellman_key_exchange

    So who does use this? Step forward “Google” for one. When you make an https connection to Google an exceptionally high grade of encryption will be negotiated with your browser. Nobody spies on Google without being part of their club it seems.

    Interestingly https://duckduckgo.com (the other main private search engine besides ixquick/startpage) also uses Diffie-Hellman so searches on it should be highly secure (unless they also are a front for the spooks).

    Anyway I just thought it interesting, Google will use the most secure encryption (even against those in possession of Google’s private keys) when you make an https connection to their servers.

    If all webservers turned on Diffie-Hellman (it is usually explicitly turned off) then decoding “civilian” encrypted traffic would probably be beyond any agency anywhere. At least for now.

    There is an extra cpu overhead on the servers to support this form of encryption but not enough it seems to me to explain why it is relatively rarely deployed.

    I am surprised that ixquick/startpage don’t support this form of encryption as it makes their private keys worth a lot of money. I’ve thought of emailing them and asking why but thought better of it.

  118. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 11:18 pm

    That should have been “regretfully” and not “regrettably”, of course.

  119. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 11:25 pm

    @ Fred

    I shall deliver good advice to you whenever I feel you need it, and this is one such occasion. Come on, lighten up, you know it makes sense!

  120. Thanks v much, Anon. All information gratefully received!

    I’ve just been reading this

    http://www.zdnet.com/six-ways-to-protect-yourself-from-the-nsa-and-other-eavesdroppers-7000016860/

    and at the end he says

    “If we really want to protect our privacy on the net what we need is more than better technology, we need fundamental changes in our laws and how we enforce the privacy laws we do have. Then, and only then, will we have a fighting chance of keeping our privacy on the Internet.”

    which is self-evident. But doesn’t give me much hope.

  121. “The boy killed for an off-hand remark about Muhammad – Sharia spreads in Syria”

    The boy had asked for payment for the glass of tea he had served to his killers. Hence he was shot dead, but reporting this as it is, then would clarify the position of the “rebels” and their ruthless exploits, be it; demanding a cup of tea wit menaces, or robbing the contents of the households that their occupants have fled the area due to the said “rebels” activities (indiscriminate bombing, and shooting), or going out on a jolly shooting, rocketing and bombing the crap out of Syrian infrastructures, and people.

    The same report contained the tale of a car-jacker getting fifty lashes of electricity cable for jacking some poor bastards ride. However shooting the boy in the head for an every day expression, then is passed as “blasphemy”.

    The daily two minutes hate ritual towards all things Islam and Muslims in line with the established practice of blaming the Muslim victims for their demise, as the precedence set and as practised for the past seventy years, in zionistan. The cold blooded murder of a fourteen years old boy whom had asked for payment for the glass of tea he had served, is portrayed as his execution for his disrespect to the prophet, blasphemy.

    Ergo the message is pounded home yet again, here is the proof; Muslims are fanatical killers, as it is established! Further the free loading murderous hooligans who are getting supplied with arms and munition by the West and portrayed as “rebels” fighting for democracy in Syria are absolved from their crimes of robbing a cup of tea from a tea boy and killing the tea boy too.

    Truly a fucked up state of affairs, that is further perpetuated by the bbc, and the other medjia, all in the way of “informing” the populace, and letting them know how their tax funds are being spent to make the world a “safer” place.

  122. “I shall deliver good advice to you whenever I feel you need it, and this is one such occasion. Come on, lighten up, you know it makes sense!”

    “Don’t tell me what to do” is already one syllable words, hard to make it any simpler for a moron to understand.

    Now go fuck yourself pathetic failed troll.

  123. Bloody hell, Fedup (and Passerby) could you cut down on the verbiage? I don’t know who you think you’re lecturing, but the vast majority of people here are pretty well-informed and don’t need your lengthy essays.

  124. Just for the sake of clarification;

    Sahria could mean:
    Law, code, legislation, dispensation, fundamental principle, general rule, canons of good behaviour, and yes religious law.

    Although it is a bold step to take, but here we go;
    All laws across the planet are normally founded in the general rules and fundamental principles that are accepted and prevalent within the societies that the said laws are to be legislated for. Further the accepted norms, general rules and fundamental principles are based on or derived from religious codes, and ethics.

    Thus Sharia somehow is not unlike the current codes of; ethics, conduct, and morality, as well as the body of the laws we have and enjoy in this country. The racists have not yet fully realised the length of time the English have been living under Sharia, for a long time now. I say potato they say “al batates”, what is in a name? Evidently far too much, ask the poor women folk whom are mourning the murder of their men folk in the arc of blood, death, fire, and instability.

  125. doug scorgie

    3 Jul, 2013 - 11:59 pm

    I’m sure that everyone who matters in the security business knows where Snowden is and he is being closely watched.

    He is not going to sneak out of Russia “under the radar”.

    The forced landing of Bolivia’s presidential jet was a show of strength in my view, by USA agencies which would have known that Snowden was not on board and was a warning to any nation not to step out of line; especially if they want economic/security ties with North America.

    The Latin American countries that are inclined to offer Snowden asylum are all fragile democracies and economies under constant subversion by the USA and its proxies; a safe haven today but maybe not tomorrow for Snowden, Assange or anyone else.

    This boils down to power politics and one man’s life is worth jack-shit when it comes to the “national interest”.

    There is no morality, humanity or ethics in realpolitik.

  126. Bloody hell, Fedup (and Passerby) could you cut down on the verbiage? I don’t know who you think you’re lecturing, but the vast majority of people here are pretty well-informed and don’t need your lengthy essays.

    You are back on the sleuthing, again Charlie no Chan: Fedup, Passerby! (we have had this dance before). The “vast majority”, evidently now you are talking for the nation too, and complaining about the “the verbiage”.

    A- Who is the “vast majority” you have in mind? Those who keep commenting here , or those who read and never comment?

    B- Do you have a problem with space, trees chopped, or electricity used to create “the verbiage” and sustain it?

    C- So far as “who you think you’re lecturing” is concerned, certainly not you, after all you know everything, so it was not intended for you.

    d- What nerve did I hit, for you to start your assault and playing the banshee?

    E- Other than a continual sleuthing to find who is who (fuck me this is really the important issue after all in among the anonymous pseudonyms finding that the colonel did it, with a candlestick is a heck of job). Or lecturing Flaming June on how she should publish her comments, what is it exactly that you fucking contribute?

    PS So far as the “Sock puppet-ting” goes, that is to be abhorred on the same thread, ie, someone keeps posting the same shite nuder differing names on the same thread. However to start laying fucking rules down as to who should have what fucking name, seems to be an uncalled for intrusion into the personal domain of others don’t you think?

    PPS there seems to be a drive to discount differing individuals and classifying these as a single person, that is all the rage among some of those commenting on this blog, I have been taken for some “steel fuckwit”, and then some “other tosser”, and “so forth”, seems to be an OCD affliction with some who comment around here.

  127. One apparently has to have everything perfect to be simply ignored on this site.

    You seem to have a point there, count me in with imperfect lot, we are at a disadvantage amidst the body of knowledge that seem to be brain farting away and putting everyone else right. Not forgetting to be “admiring” each other to boot.

    Finally, how come you know so much about Sweden?

  128. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 12:29 am

    You are nit-picking Fed-up. Get a grip.

  129. doug scorgie

    4 Jul, 2013 - 12:40 am

    Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)
    3 Jul, 2013 – 8:57 pm

    “This is not good news….”

    No it is not.

    However it does not surprise me. Ban Ki Moon has, in my view been a puppet of the USA for years through blackmail and threats towards him and his family.

    The western media portray him as a human rights champion, an international law champion; he is neither.

    He is a mere human-being manipulated by and compromised by the security services.

    They have the dirt on him.

  130. Dreoilin

    Just to add another curiosity. If Google use the highest encryption without exception then which one of the big players uses the lowest? Step forward Microsoft. Seems (based on published independent monitoring) you can sometimes even end up with an “encrypted” connection some teen cracker could break with an antique Sinclair ZX80. Microsoft also never use Diffie-Hellman.

    All https connections are not the same.

  131. You are nit-picking Fed-up. Get a grip.

    No mate I am fucking sick of unduly to get fucked around!

    Nothing to say other criticising those who actually think, or want to contribute, that is not fucking on, here I have already poked fun at it.

  132. Could I point out to you, Fedup, that I wrote, “Fedup (and Passerby)” to include Passerby in what I said, and that I made no remarks at all to you about sock puppets.

    What nerve did I hit, I wonder?

    I believe I was reiterating what Jon said to you on the UN thread

    “and if you can explain your views more clearly in less words, I think it would be helpful.”

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/work-for-the-un/comment-page-6/#comment-415450

    Oh, and Jon addressed it to “Passerby/Fedup” but I don’t recall you objecting at the time. [Correct me if I'm wrong.]

  133. “here I have already poked fun at it.”

    You tried.

    I’ve left a note on that thread about punctuation and how it clarifies what people write. Especially when they’re quoting from elsewhere.

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/pandering-to-racism/comment-page-5/#comment-416301

  134. doug scorgie

    4 Jul, 2013 - 1:00 am

    Someone
    3 Jul, 2013 – 11:05 pm

    “What’s a £1 billion fraud worth? A suspended sentence”

    Absolutely spot-on:

    “A college student with no criminal record was jailed for six months on Thursday for stealing a £3.50 case of bottled water during a night of rioting.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8695988/London-riots-Lidl-water-thief-jailed-for-six-months.html

  135. Thanks again, Anon. I hope to be off Microsoft by Christmas! (or so I’m told)

  136. Hmm after a bit more checking, Microsoft mail servers will use exceptionally secure Diffie-Hellman if absolutely forced to by client. No available browser or addon (as far as I can find with a quick search) will force this but Microsoft will support it if you have one that does…

    How the Microsoft servers do this is by supporting Diffie-Hellman as least preferred option. It will then only be selected by a client which refuses anything other than Diffie_Hellman. Interesting. Well to me anyway if nobody else :-)

    Information gathered mainly from https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/index.html

    Bottom Line: It is possible to make a probably spook-proof highly secure connection to Microsoft servers but not with your standard unmodified browser.

  137. Cryptonym. 7 26pm

    “…they and their fellow followers are better, superior, morally or in any number of ways, or more doctrinally correct in their own interpretation of their own ‘big magic book’ than those of of another religion or of no religion…”

    Here’s the late great Dave Allen on religion.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3-Lp0M1r6o

  138. OBarnum and Co. threw perception to the dogs and simply went gangster on Evo Morales.

    Simultaneously shoving a really big cream pie in the world’s face.

  139. @N_, Yeah, dignity’s the greatest. Dignity was the cri de coeur of the nascent Arab risings. So happens that the word dignity is in the preamble of both the ICCPR and the CESCR, since dignity, like peace and development, is another way of rolling all rights together into a word.

    In all the recent popular uprisings, the rhetoric and substantive demands were shot through with human rights stuff. Is that osmosis from clever propaganda? I tend to think it’s people availing themselves of an ethical framework that gives them a way to talk about state predation. Latin America caught on best, the Mideast pretty well, and the US only dimly, and that partly accounts for what each rising accomplished.

    HR’s soiled, yeah, in a sense. As Chomsky sez, when states talk about HR, it’s often casuistic bullshit signifying nothing. On the other hand, when humans start talking about human rights, that’s trouble. The throw-weight of human rights depends on their assimilation into public discourse.

    IMO rights fans and fans of class struggle sometimes wind up talking past one another, unnecessarily so. When you mention property rights, you put your finger on an interesting wrinkle in human rights doctrine. The CESCR in Article 1(2) mentions international law in connection with resource rights and then in Article 25 goes on to say nothing may impair the peoples’ resource rights. It subordinates legal property protections to peoples’ [collective] resource rights. It’s another stick to beat the state with. Everybody can get their licks in.

    Very thought-provoking, thanks for weighing in.

  140. “The Latin American countries that are inclined to offer Snowden asylum are all fragile democracies and economies under constant subversion by the USA and its proxies..”

    They are certainly constantly threatened by US subversion. In Obama’s time Honduras and Paraguay have both been take over by US backed gangsters and the President of Ecuador was nearly assassinated.

    On the other hand how robust do you consider democracy in the USA to be?
    And does it not strike you that with fifty million people on foodstamps, and millions more ineligible for health care, with unemployment, in real statistics, pushing 23% and a trillion dollars in student loans outstanding, there may be a wee bit of trouble coming down the ‘pike there?

    Or do you hew to the notion that Americans are so dumb that they will put up with anything?

    Snowden will be fine. He has already done more for his country and his world than most of us dream of doing in long lives. His name will live forever.

    It is a sad commentary on, not just the governments, but the peoples of countries which offered Kropotkin, Mazzini, Marx and Bakunin asylum that they now live in hope of earning tips from tyranny and turn in their own countrymen to torture and life imprisonment (without charge or trial) for the privilege of being given american boot leather to lick.

  141. “We have to grasp, as Marx and Adam Smith did, that corporations are not concerned with the common good. They exploit, pollute, impoverish, repress, kill, and lie to make money. They throw poor people out of homes, let the uninsured die, wage useless wars for profit, poison and pollute the ecosystem, slash social assistance programs, gut public education, trash the global economy, plunder the U.S. Treasury and crush all popular movements that seek justice for working men and women. They worship money and power.”

    ― Chris Hedges, The Death of the Liberal Class

    “The corporations that profit from permanent war need us to be afraid. Fear stops us from objecting to government spending on a bloated military. Fear means we will not ask unpleasant questions of those in power. Fear permits the government to operate in secret. Fear means we are willing to give up our rights and liberties for promises of security. The imposition of fear ensures that the corporations that wrecked the country cannot be challenged. Fear keeps us penned in like livestock.”

    ― Chris Hedges, The Death of the Liberal Class

    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013/04/10/a-voice-worth-listening-to/

  142. A quickie:

    MasterCard breaks ranks in WikiLeaks blockade

    http://wikileaks.org/MasterCard-breaks-ranks-in.html

  143. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 2:42 am

    Dreolin; That’s important. WL needs financial support ASAP.

  144. Stopping a president’s plane is ridiculous – their bad.

    But spying on everybody’s communications data? I thought that was common knowledge anyway. Don’t people realize we live in a post-privacy age? Everybody who uses modern forms of communication is leaving large quanities of data about themselves on servers all over the world. No way can this all be protected by privacy laws. That’s how the system works and the benefits are that we have instant and almost free communications and access to vast sources of information. If service providers mine this data to send us pop-up ads for stuff they think we want to buy, or governments mine this data for their own purposes, then that’s the price we pay for using the system.

    One thing’s for sure: if the shit ever really does hit the fan and we lose the relative peace that keeps us all so cosy in the western world, I hope it’s The US and The UK that have the upper hand in the cyber war, rather than the Chinese or the Russians. Let alone the narco criminals or the Islamists. I know which tyranny I’d rather live under.

  145. Re Dreoilin, 4 Jul, 1:03 am: “I hope to be off Microsoft by Christmas (or so I’m told)”

    Anyone who wants to get off Microsoft can install Ubuntu in practically two shakes of a lamb’s tail. I have been using Ubuntu for five years and currently have it on three machines. All of them I converted simply by downloading the latest 64-bit version and putting it on a USB stick (you have to use a special installer if you are working from Windows, but this is provided). I have had no problems on any of the machines, except for the inital loss of the wireless connection on one of them (but the system identified it automatically for me & directed me how to self-install it).

  146. @DavidH 3:30 am: LOL. Whatever you are being paid is far too much. Sheesh.

  147. “LOL. Whatever you are being paid is far too much. Sheesh.”

    So what has Snowden told us except what bears do in the woods?

    World politics is getting more like Pro Wrestling all the time.

  148. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 7:25 am

    I was picturing what’s left of the army in control of the ZBC newsroom and the ConDems under house arrest. :)

  149. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 8:03 am

    When I said that I was surprised that ZBC were carrying those reports from Syria about the child being shot and the sharia court’s sentences, I meant that it did nothing to support the plans of Cameron and Hague plan to arm the rebels. In fact Paul Woods piece does the very opposite.

    You might remember my posts about John Baron MP speaking up about Cameron reserving the right to act without either consulting parliament (the two month + recess is approaching) or having a vote on the arming and other interventions.

    Mr Baron has now secured a debate to be held on July 11th.
    Should be interesting. The vote is predictable though. All those whips will be out.
    http://services.parliament.uk/calendar/#!/calendar/Commons/MainChamber/2013/7/11/events.html

  150. John Spencer-Davis

    4 Jul, 2013 - 8:07 am

    Unless the story has been changed again since Craig’s comments, the replacement story *did* and *does* mention the intelligence sharing agreements, in similar terms to the original – towards the end of the text. Looks to me as if it is just Mr Madsen’s contribution that has been dropped out.

    Kind regards, John

  151. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 8:07 am

    O/T Hope all the night owls are following the health advice here!

    Good night’s sleep ‘protects heart’
    By Helen Briggs

    BBC News

    Sleep is good for the heart as well as the mind, say researchers

    Seven or more hours’ sleep a night boosts the benefits to the heart of a healthy lifestyle, research suggests.

    /..
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-23144438

    Five things that stop a good night’s sleep
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/0/20427553

  152. Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
    Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
    Everybody knows that the war is over
    Everybody knows the good guys lost
    Everybody knows the fight was fixed
    The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
    That’s how it goes
    Everybody knows

    Leonard Cohen

  153. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 8:33 am

    A thread from Medialens on George Galloway with a presenter from the Australian broadcaster, James Carleton.

    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1372893247.html

    which links to:

    http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/radical-uk-mp-george-galloway-speaks-to-breakfast/4798410
    which contains the audio link

    ABC is the state broadcaster?

  154. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 8:39 am

    A happy Independence Day to all Americans.

  155. Will EVERYBODY please tackle the arguments commenters make, and not refer to their motives for making them – which you cannot know – or that people are paid, or their personality traits, or somebody else.

    What interests me is the arguments people put. I think most of the imputations made on all sides are probably inaccurate, but even if they were accurate they are irrelevant. A man or woman may be a one-eyed former contract killer with a cocaine habit in the pay of the state of Israel, but may still make an argument that is absolutely correct. Please address the argument, not the person. Posts which fail to do this will be deleted when seen.

  156. Can anyone help me find something online? It appeared yesterday in the Guardian: an MI5 advert for intelligence analysts. It consisted of the purported intelligence record of an IA’s day, complete with its culmination, the arrest of some evil terrorists (obviously). Ironically, the information sources listed strongly confirmed the notion that nothing is sacred. I know this, but I would like it to reach a wider public.

  157. @Someone. 2 15 am

    “Fear keeps us penned in like livestock.”

    Here’s how is works. (2.5mins)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y07at1bU89Q

  158. That’s glorious, Kibo. But a big question there, would a Border collie actually be any worse at running the country? They’re MUCH brighter than Cameron et al.

  159. “Dreolin; That’s important. WL needs financial support ASAP.”

    Yes, Ben, and look at this

    “The Supreme Court decision in Iceland was in favour of WikiLeaks and DataCell, but it did not include damages – deemed a separate issue under Icelandic law. A court claim for compensation is currently being prepared. Damages are estimated at 9 billion Icelandic Kronas (55.9m EUR or 72.7m USD).”

    Anything approaching that/those figures should make them a lot more secure.

  160. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 9:20 am

    The CEO of this company has put out a statement denying accusations that his company was involved in the supply or placing of the bug at the Ecuadorean Embassy.

    http://www.thesurveillancegroup.com/news/78-press-release

    http://www.thesurveillancegroup.com/

  161. “Russian femme fatale Anna Chapman proposes to Edward Snowden on Twitter”
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2355316/The-spy-tagged-Russian-femme-fatale-Anna-Chapman-proposes-Edward-Snowden-Twitter.html

    A diplomatic solution? If they married in the airport transit zone, would that get him into Russia legally and instantly? President Putin could say straightfacedly, “I have no choice, under Russian law, but to admit him.”

    They could be Mr. & Mrs. Smith. Make movies.

  162. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 9:31 am

    Ref the announcement by Mr Patino that surveillance at the Ecuadorean Embassy has been discovered, this is the detail for the company which has denied involvement.

    http://companycheck.co.uk/company/04246863/THE-SURVEILLANCE-GROUP-LIMITED/company-summary

    The CEO is Timothy Young and has this history http://companycheck.co.uk/director/907609868

    Boasting of their prowess.
    http://www.thesurveillancegroup.com/surveillance

  163. Flaming July, and a happy Independence from America Day. Last plug.

    http://www.caab.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/july4th-20132.jpg

  164. For anyone who is interested in the question of Shannon and how many US troops have passed through there, I have received a reply from Shannonwatch as follows

    “Hi XXXXX,

    “First of all thanks for your ongoing support.

    “The troop figures are made available by the Minister for Transport who is asked on an annual (sometimes more frequent) basis to provide them. This is normally done through parliamentary questions.

    “Here’s a link to one such question/answer in 2010 (you will see it was asked on our behalf by Joe Costello who is now a member of the government that we have to drag the information out of!). If you search kildarestreet.com you will find other answers with troops information.

    http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2010-10-05.1347.0&s=number+troops+shannon#g1348.0.q

    Regards,
    XXXX”

  165. @ Craig

    “ad hominem”

  166. Why do they even bother to censor it? Everyone with half a brain could guess it anyway. Or do they fear the sheep might protest? Most people would probably think it is a good idea. “Terrorism” needs to be fought after all ^^

  167. “A man or woman may be a one-eyed former contract killer with a cocaine habit in the pay of the state of Israel,”

    Damn.

    That’s me rumbled.

    :.)

  168. Dragon,

    “Ironically, the information sources listed strongly confirmed the notion that nothing is sacred. I know this, but I would like it to reach a wider public.”

    Explain please,ta?

  169. This story appeared via Twitter, and I thought it was brilliant:

    “In 1999, the state-of-the-art in video game warfare was Quake 3 Arena – a fast and brutal game set in tight, cramped levels, where the aim was simply to kill, get killed, and repeat.

    “And among its various innovations – of which, arguably, there weren’t that many – was some rather clever artificial intelligence.

    “The ‘bots’ in the game – essentially the computer controlled players – were equipped with a kind of ‘learning’ AI.

    “In the game, the bots would watch your gameplay style, and adapt themselves as the fighting continued. The bots would effectively “think” their way to new tactics, discarding ideas that didn’t work and honing in on those that did.

    “Naturally this got some people thinking. If you left the bots playing, on their own, surely they would get better and better… and then what? Would they turn into the ultimate AI killing machine – or create a nightmare world of pain and suffering?

    “Well now we know.

    “They evolved world peace.

    “According to a mysterious message board thread from 2011, in about 2007 one gamer set up a server of 16 bots playing each other in an endless, pointless war.

    “In 2011, four years later, he remembered the server, and returned to it.

    “According to the thread on 4Chan, the gamer found that the bots had evolved to do absolutely nothing. Instead of running, shooting and killing, they had learned that the only way to ensure their survival was to abandon violence, and simply stand facing each other, forever – as one gamer in the thread put it, “waiting for a purpose or salvation”.

    “Nobody could win – but nobody could die. A peaceful stalemate had emerged naturally, after four bloody years.”

    However, that’s not the whole story … HuffPo is now claiming that the whole thing was a joke/hoax

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/07/01/quake-3-arena-world-peace_n_3529082.html

    :(

  170. @Flaming June:

    The CEO is Timothy Young and has this history http://companycheck.co.uk/director/907609868.

    Hmmm…Herefordshire. Now what else is based there?

  171. Jives – Looking for a web image of this ad. Just that. After all the denials and obfuscations, this is what they do, and they advertise it. In the Guardian.

  172. None of those, Dreoilin, I’m afraid. This was a 1/8 page ad in the print edition, consisting entirely of a spookspeak (for public consumption) running record of interceptions – of a number of sources – and surveillance, with some insertions into the text, in bold, of the job details. Think it was in the educational ads section, more bizarrely still. I don’t have the paper with me.

  173. TAFTA: Illegitimate EU-US Agreement Will Begin Under Total US Surveillance

    http://www.laquadrature.net/en/tafta-illegitimate-eu-us-agreement-will-begin-under-total-us-surveillance

  174. Actually, I *am* a one-eyed former contract killer with a cocaine habit but I absolutely refute any ridiculous suggestion that I have ever been paid by the State of Israel. Mossad are so stingy all I got was a complimentary Barbra Streisand CD, one ticket to Fiddler on the Roof and a poster of Steve Guttenberg.

  175. Let’s not rely on western news reports. Here is a poor English translation (sorry!) of an official press release by the Bolivian foreign ministry.

    Comments to follow in next post.

    ************************
    COMPLAINT BY THE PLURINATIONAL STATE OF BOLIVIA

    The Government of the Plurinational State of Bolivia denounces before the international community the act of aggression against itself, and specifically against President Evo Morales, constituted by the surprise withdrawal of overflight and landing permissions for the Falcon 900 presidential aircraft FAB 001, which on 2 July 2013 was on its return flight after the participation by the Head of State and his delegation at the Second Summit of the Forum of Gas Exporting Countries, held in the Russian Federation.

    The Government of Bolivia denounces before the international community the unfriendly and blatantly aggressive communication that the presidential aircraft was not authorised to cross the airspace of the Republics of France and Portugal.

    The Republic of Portugal announced the withdrawal of overflight and landing permissions and later amended its decision, authorising only overflights and thus preventing a landing for necessary refueling.

    For its part, the Republic of France announced the withdrawal of permission to fly, when the Bolivian Head of State was within a few minutes of entering French airspace.

    The attitude of the two countries is a violation of existing international agreements, undermining the life and safety of a Head of State, forcing the aircraft to make an emergency landing in the Republic of Austria and to make a flight plan rearranging the return of President Morales, with consequent damage to the presidential inauguration.

    The Government of the Plurinational State of Bolivia believes that these actions are discriminatory and intimidatory, and that they have been generated from the unfounded and malicious suspicions that the presidential aircraft was carrying US citizen Edward Snowden.

    La Paz, 3 July 2013
    ************************

  176. Not much relevant since I was last here except NR’s Daily Mail article about Anna Chapman, the pin up girl of the ‘false lag’ Manhattan 11 where Snowden’s disaffection all started, offering to marry him.

    The article doesn’t mention that when Putin volunteered to take the ‘Russian’ spies back, they agreed to be under his control, so the offer has the approval of Russia’s President.

    Looks like a way to solve his lack of residence, and a marriage contract may include a provision that he will get her approval for any new disclosures he wants to make.

    Remember she was the one who exposed the American spies, refusing to go along with any more FBI efforts to make them look like Russian ones, what made hacker Gareth Williams and Snowden himself go off the rails.

  177. One thing that’s interesting is that Bolivia doesn’t criticise Austria at all.

    Austrian President Heinz Fischer actually went to Schwechat airport in Vienna and spoke with Evo Morales there.

    So we have

    a) western reports that Bolivia has accused Austria of “kidnapping” Morales, of not allowing take-off until they had searched the plane, of an Austrian “decision” to search, of an Austrian search, and of Bolivian “agreement” to a search – all with slightly different spin, with our being left unclear not just regarding whether a search took place, but as to what on earth did or didn’t happen in Vienna

    b) a Bolivian statement which does not criticise Austria but which also, very interestingly, does not even mention Austria; for example, it doesn’t deny that there is any problem between the two countries, or thank Austria for allowing the unscheduled landing

    c) no word from Snowden or Wikileaks regarding Snowden’s whereabouts or recent movements.

    As I have said before, it’s very unlikely Snowden could have boarded a plane without the FSB (formerly known as KGB) knowing about it; and in the unlikely event that they were in any doubt, they would have searched the airport and, if he was still at the airport, found him.

    Russia is involved in the propaganda here.

    I doubt Snowden has been in the transit area at Sheremetevo airport in Moscow all this time. In fact, I doubt whether he has been in Russia all this time.

    One possibility is that he did go to Austria, although if so, then by now he is probably somewhere else, perhaps even back in Moscow, or in captivity, or dead.

    Bolivia and Austria seem to have done some kind of deal.

  178. And here is an English translation of the press release from the Austrian President’s office. Austria doesn’t seem to have a problem with Bolivia either, at least if we discount the patronising and arrogant title, very possibly related to racism.

    Everything below the asterisks is from the Austrian President’s office.

    *************************
    “Bolivian President Evo Morales can continue home”
    Statement by President Heinz Fischer

    3 July 2013

    Unplanned stopover by head of state after the departure from Russia. Some EU countries refused overflight permission because of the rumour that the former US intelligence official Edward Snowden was on board.

    Photo: President Heinz Fischer and his counterpart Evo Morales at Vienna airport: the Bolivian President expressed thanks “for the great hospitality of Austria!”

    Here is the President’s statement:

    “Today, at 7.45, President Evo Morales, whom I consider as a friend, contacted me by phone and informed me that he was at Schwechat airport, because the airspace of some European countries, especially Spain, had been denied to his aircraft, and he was waiting, pending further developments, in Vienna.

    I promised Evo Morales that I would meet with him at Vienna’s Schwechat airport, and also to use the opportunity to exchange views with him. In the meantime, the necessary air permits were received, and the Bolivian President could continue his journey home.

    He asked me in passing to express his great gratitude for the hospitality and for the excellent and proper treatment during his unplanned stay in the Republic of Austria and by the Austrian authorities,” said the President.

    *********************************

  179. Absolutely no reference to any search then, in either statement – or to any interest on the part of Austria regarding whether or not Snowden was on board.

    I await the next stage in the story with interest!

  180. Bolivia has REJECTED a formal US extradition request for Snowden:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-04/bolivia-rejects-u-s-request-for-snowden-following-flight-detour.html

    Note, too, that of the list of 21 countries that have applications for asylum from Snowden, the sidebar on this BBC article today says that only 4 have so far formally said No; the majority are fence-sitting, awaiting developments:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23174874

    Of which, there’s a good possibility some will come from the 12-nation bloc of UNASUR holding an emergency summit today, who can now co-ordinate a response as a strong enough bloc to resist trade threats. This letters page from the Guardian makes clear what Ecuador’s actual position is, as well as why so very many of those applications were aimed at European nations, who all have very compliant extradition treaties with the US – so it would seem odd at first – but who now, with the brilliantly timed stories of NSA spying on EU business, can be pressured to act as a bloc (which is clearly happening and having some effect – the US-EU trade treaty negotiations been completely disrupted):

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/sovereignty-stake-snowden-saga

    There’s a VERY clever game of geopolitic chess being played here and, of course, it’s Wikileaks who are the ones who’ve been busy plotting all the Knight and Queen moves…

    God, I would give my eye-teeth to know who exactly put out that *rumour* that Snowden was on Morales’ plane to be picked up by the intelligence services and kick off this unholy fuck-up in intercontinental political relations. Oh, what’s that you say? Ecuador found a bug in their London embassy three weeks ago…?

    Ahahahahhahahhahahahhahahahha!

  181. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 3:28 pm

    France blames ‘conflicting information’…..

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23174874

  182. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 3:32 pm

    Arbed; Imagine the poutrage if Air Force 1 were denied flyover in the airspace of some Latin American country.

  183. Don’t think that who put out the rumors that Snowden might be on the President’s plane, Arbed, is anything to waste important teeth on.

    Just listen to the interview with Morales while in Moscow, and recall all the times America has read Russian messages on land lines, and microwaves to its detriment.

    Back in Soviet times, the KGB planted in those tunnel operations in Vienna, and Berlin, just what the American wanted to hear, and when the Anglo-Americans assassinated Palme, Putin had reassuring messages put on lines CIA was monitoring in Moscow.

    All Moscow had to do now was put out some rumors about what was happening with Snowden for Sweden’s FRA and Britain’s GCHQ to pick them up, and the spooks swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

    Western intelligence agencies are the slowest learners on the planet because they are always using the same methods to prove that they finally got it right.

  184. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 3:41 pm

    Memories of ECHELON…http://thebricspost.com/why-spy-on-a-trusted-ally/#.UdWJpODTLFJ

    “The US snooping on the EU, its most trusted ally, can therefore only mean one thing – this is about economic spying and about gathering economic information.

    Pretty soon negotiations for a far reaching free trade agreement between the EU and the US are about to start. Actually, preliminary negotiations – not to be underestimated – have already been going on for some years.

    The US is losing ground not just because of the economic crisis. Its economic power has been shrinking steadfastly long before the crisis started.

    It is a sign of its waning predominance that the US now finds itself in the embarassing situation of having to explain why it is bugging its own ‘trusted’ allies in Europe.”

  185. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 3:45 pm

    “Western intelligence agencies are the slowest learners on the planet because they are always using the same methods to prove that they finally got it right.”

    Yes, Trowbridge. Someone in the Agency made the system recommendations and now the purchase order has been paid for. Gotta push that square peg in the round hole, or my career ends here. Many examples of this in hdwe….The infamous Bradley comes to mind.

  186. Right, Ben, the West’s intelligence services have always put more emphasis upon systems, gizmos, and trade craft rather than just spies – why the KGB beat them hollow in the Cold War.

    If it had just been a spy war, Moscow would have won.

    In fact, Soviet spying helped loose it because it so overloaded the USSR with new technology that the system became increasingly unmanageable.

    Good example of the law of unintended consequences.

  187. doug scorgie

    4 Jul, 2013 - 4:07 pm

    “(Reuters) – France’s external intelligence agency spies on the French public’s phone calls, emails and social media activity in France and abroad, the daily Le Monde said on Thursday.”

    “It said the DGSE intercepted signals from computers and telephones in France, and between France and other countries, although not the content of phone calls, to create a map of “who is talking to whom”. It said the activity was illegal.”

    “All of our communications are spied on,” wrote Le Monde, which based its report on unnamed intelligence sources as well as remarks made publicly by intelligence officials.”

    “Emails, text messages, telephone records, access to Facebook and Twitter are then stored for years,” it said.”

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/04/us-france-security-idUSBRE9630FS20130704

  188. Just a pathetic way for French intelligence to explain away why it, along with other countries’ agencies, was fooled about what was going on in and around Moscow.

  189. Here’s an English translation of the Bolivian Foreign Ministry’s press release about the US extradition request. Comments to follow.

    Can someone please improve the translation of the second paragraph?

    ************************
    THE SNOWDEN CASE

    The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Plurinational State of Bolivia expressed outrage and condemnation at the request for the arrest of US citizen Edward Snowden, preliminary to extradition, submitted by the Government of the United States of America on the same day that our President was illegally detained in Europe on unfounded suspicions that the said person was in the presidential aircraft.

    In this regard, it is clarified and emphatically reiterated that Mr Snowden never met the President in Russia and less, up in the aircraft; has at the present time not been present on Bolivian territory and, if he decides to enter or transit through the country, Bolivia would exercise the principles of sovereignty, independence and equality of states.

    It is reported that the requirement for the purposes of extradition detention violates the Framework Agreement signed with the United States in 2011 and the Extradition Treaty of 1995, in a clear violation of the principles governing international relations enshrined in the Constitution of the Plurinational State of Bolivia.

    So, the strange, illegal, unfounded and suggestive Request for Extradition of a person who is not in the territory of the requested State, shall be returned to the Government of the United States immediately and categorically.

    La Paz, 3 July 2013
    ***************************

  190. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 4:28 pm

    Trowbridge; Not sure it was unintended to break them with costs.

    I remember Reagan rolling out his posters showing the superiority of Soviet ICBM’s

    Of course, the ancient liquid-fueled Russkies were twice as big as the more efficient and techno-superior solid fuel rocketry.

    It illustrated his contempt for the truth, but he got his ‘Peacekeeper’ Loved that Orwellian name.

  191. @Doug – that Le Monde story makes me wonder whether there hasn’t been an agreement among the major western powers to bring it into the public consciousness that all activity on phone lines and the internet is monitored, and Snowden is just the means. (Those of us with a ‘critical’ bent have known for decades that the NSA listens to everything.)

    As for Snowden, it wouldn’t surprise me if he recently took a trip to a city renowned for its chocolate cake and Spanish riding school.

  192. I was talking about stealing technology across the economic spectrum, Ben, what spies like Gordon Lonsdale accomplished in spades, but created a complete mess when the command economy increasingly decentralized, creating a maze of problems throughout the system – what Gorby’s reforms only compounded.

  193. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 4:51 pm

    N_; 2nd graf. Just sounds like diplo-gobblygook to me. With all the cryptic back-and-forth on Ecuador, and the split-vote amongst the electorate, Bolivia’s population might be angry enough during the 24-hr news cycle to agree to asylum, but these things can’t happen that fast.

  194. “How NSA access was built into Windows”

    http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/5/5263/1.html

  195. @Ben – did you look at the Spanish? Sorry, I should have posted a link: http://www.rree.gob.bo/. It’s the press release entitled “COMUNICADO DEL MINISTERIO DE RELACIONES EXTERIORES DE BOLIVIA SOBRE EL CASO SNOWDEN”. Second paragraph:

    *******************
    Al respecto, se aclara y reitera enfáticamente que el Sr. Snowden nunca se entrevistó con el Presidente en Rusia y menos subió a la aeronave; no encontrándose al presente, en territorio boliviano y, si decidiera ingresar o transitar por este país, en ejercicio de los principios de soberanía, independencia e igualdad entre Estados.
    *******************

    Here’s a big question: where is Edward Snowden?

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