UK Complicity in Massacre

by craig on July 24, 2014 8:14 am in Uncategorized

78 people died at Glencoe and we still sing about it over three hundred years later. Over 700 have been massacred so far in Gaza, 80% of them innocent civilians. The UN Human Rights Commissioner has made the very obvious, the unarguable, point that there is prima facie evidence of war crimes by Israel. These include the killing of four young boys playing football on the beach at Gaza, and the use of industrial nail bombs in civilian areas.

Yet the UK refused to support even having an investigation. Please note this was not a vote to condemn Israel, or to declare war crimes. It was a vote to have an investigation.

I am ashamed to belong to the UK. Just as having served the UK for twenty years and having worked my way up to be a proud British Ambassador, I became so ashamed at our complicity in torture and extraordinary rendition, I had to resign.

I want to be part of a country of which I am not ashamed

ignominy

Now imagine that board with Scotland on it and a green light next to it.

This is the British Foreign Secretary. He declares that Israel “has a right to defend itself” and that for the UN to investigate Israeli war crimes is “unhelpful”.

101721461-Philip_Hammond_530x298

This man does not represent me, or anything about me. Nor, emphatically, does that flag behind him.

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151 Comments

  1. Pleased to see my adoptive home there with a GREEN YES.

    That man standing in front of the union jack is cowardly scum.

  2. Michael Pattison

    24 Jul, 2014 - 8:33 am

    My sentiments entirely, Craig.

    How can the civilised world stand by and allow this to continue:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/10984259/Revealed-the-Palestinian-children-killed-by-Israeli-forces.html

    Scotland, vote YES and take your proper place on the world stage to help bring about a fairer, more equitable, decent world.

  3. Nothing about Gaza on the front pages today with the exception of the ‘i’.
    http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/7/23/325128/default/v2/i-1-329×437.jpg

    It’s all about Peaches and the Commonwealth games today. They have moved on.

    Nothing on the BBC front page apart from a link to a report ‘Hamas ties ceasefire to blockade’ and about a Red Cross vehicle being attacked.

    Sky keep going live to Gaza to a very good young female reporter called Sherine Tadros whose reports are factual. One of her videos is on the website

    ‘A UN report claims one child has been killed in Gaza every hour on average for the last two days. Sherine Tadros reports on the young lives being lost.’

    Sky also have this

    ‘Hammond: Israel ‘War Crimes’ Probe Unhelpful
    Israel says it will continue hunting Hamas cross-border tunnels under a truce, as global efforts to end the conflict intensify.’

    plus a breaking news item about the US resuming flights into Tel Aviv.

  4. I’ve just listened to Baroness Amos being interviewed on the radio. She’s Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator at the UN. She couldn’t even bring herself to say the seige of Gaza should be lifted when asked. That’s what you get when some Western Baroness is appointed to a such a position.

  5. Je

    Amos is a Tony Blair groupie and a crook to boot. The last chapter of The Catholic Orangemen of Togo is about her profiting personally from the Sierra Leonean conflict and from DFID funds in Nigeria going to dead dodgy private investment companies – on which she pops up on the board after giving the money as Minister. A politician who has never in her life faced any popular election.

  6. Amos. The search engine is good on this site. Two of the eight links that came up for ‘Amos’.

    NuLab Freeloaders Steal From The Starving
    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/05/nulab_freeloade/

    Yanukovich and Kabbah http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/yanukovich-and-kabbah/

  7. Alexander Waegner

    24 Jul, 2014 - 8:56 am

    A sorry state of affairs (to put it mildly and no pun intended). I too am ashamed that my country (Germany) abstained aswell.

  8. Well, that’s ‘democracy’ for ya.

  9. Craig, don’t you live in England?

    I share your shame at what our government says and does most of the time and that’s why it’s important to remember the difference between governments and people.

    Your desire to associate yourself completely with a government is leading you to an unsound position. You have created an image of this this imaginary ‘Scottish’ government that will agree with everything you believe in, remain entirely free of all corruption, command immense respect throughout the world and look after all of its residents come what may. It’s truly a lovely picture and I applaud the sentiment but it is a dream destined to disappoint not just you but a lot of “Yes” voters (who actually live in Scotland). What could make this truth any clearer than the fact that the dream is being championed by the wiley political fighter Alex Salmond?

  10. A quick read of Amos’s Wikipedia page reveals her drive for power, her greed and ambition.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Amos,_Baroness_Amos

    I see she was also appointed High Commissioner to Australia in 2009. Does she still hold that post?

    She is a director of Serious Trust Ltd. There are many entries for different companies with a Valerie Amos as director but I did not check them out.
    http://www.serious.org.uk/about/serious-trust

    No time for marriage or children. A career politician with an acquisitive nature.

  11. I like the idea of a proud Scotland voting in favour of an investigation and maybe generally being on the right side. Problem is, what evidence does anyone have that the new Scottish state won’t simply fall in line with prevailing views? Note all the EU members voted as one (excuse me if I missed something, but that’s how it looked to me).
    This is my only serious qualm about Scottish independence – capture by the same sort of moron that runs things in Westminster.

  12. As a follow up to my comment…Even Ireland abstained. All those fine words last week and then an abstention. Pathetic.

  13. From a friend just in.

    I was sent this 3 mins ago on fb, no confirmation, please let it be wrong:

    Maysam Yusef: ‪#‎BREAKING: Israeli warplanes just bombed a medical clinic that belongs to Dr. Kamal Abu Rjeila who generously volunteered to treat injuries in Khuza’a town (south east of Gaza Strip). Khuza’a is currently under heavy artillery and aerial bombing and ambulances cannot reach injuries and the dead. At least one was killed and 30 injured in that bombing. Few moments later, they bombed the doctor’s house as a punishment.

    Ban expresses condolences – to Israel:
    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/22/372384/ban-expresses-condolences-to-israel/

    ~~

    I just saw Hammond with Netanhayu. Brief statements. Blah. Blah.

    Gould is very busy supporting the Israelis.

    https://www.facebook.com/ukinisrael

  14. I think Scottish independence is a con and that the bedrock of Scottish nationalism is dimwitted chip-shouldered anti-English xenophobia.

    But if Alex Salmond and the SNP make a clear statement that an independent Scotland will not recognise the ethnic-supremacist ‘state of Israel’, and that it will not allow the Zionist organisation (for really there is only one) to operate in Scotland, I will reconsider how I cast my vote in September.

    In 2009, Bolivia and Venezuela were beacons to the world. They shut down diplomatic relations with Israel, which have not been restored.

    The first to do so was Bolivia, a country led by the first president to come from the country’s 80% indigenous majority.

    Alex Salmond could make Scotland a similar beacon. He could oppose NATO membership. He could denounce the cultural influence of the United States. He could denounce Facebook as the CIA tool that it is. He could do many things.

    He won’t.

    All he’s got is nationalism. Yuck. And most Scots know it. That’s why in Scotland the vote he gets in Scottish elections is far far higher than what he gets in British elections.

    I sometimes wonder whether anti-Zionists might apply en masse for citizenship of countries which do not stand idly by letting the ‘elephant in the dining room’ murder one Arab child every three days for 15 years and get their disgusting puppets to insist that they “have a right to defend themselves”. Countries such as Bolivia, Veneuzela, and of course Palestine itself.

    It’s an open secret that the Palestinian cause has shit PR. I read an article the other day in an Arab newspaper describing France as the “first” country to ban anti-Israeli demonstrations. Many many articles answer the Israelis point by point. Anybody can tell you that that’s not how to do PR.

    Maybe if 100,000 of us applied for and got Palestinian citizenship that might have a little bit of an effect?

  15. the vote he gets in Scottish elections is far far higher than what he gets in British elections

    – and I forgot to add that the turnout in Scotland is much higher in British elections than in Scottish elections.

    Scottish people show by their actions that they consider Alex Salmond to be what he is – the leader of the local council.

  16. I can only describe my feelings in one word for being a UK citizen. ASHAMED

  17. Perhaps we could get a kind of status which would not allow permanent residence, because obviously there is the issue of the right of return of refugees and their descendants, and the last thing Palestine needs is mass immigration of people who have had no prior connection with the country.

    The issue of whether or not Israeli Jews should be expelled from Palestine was recently mentioned here. Someone said they should. Craig then voiced the opinion that they shouldn’t, mentioning that white people weren’t expelled from South Africa upon the end of apartheid. (Talk about arguing by analogy!)

    My position is that many should, and many shouldn’t.

    A millionaire businessman with US citizenship, for example, who has recently made an “aliyah” to ‘Israel’ so as to benefit from another base, perhaps the main base, for his activities, should not be allowed to stay or to receive Palestinian citizenship.

    There should be a de-Zionisation process that goes further than de-Nazification in Germany. Parties proposing the re-establishment of a Jewish-supremacist state should be banned. Kibbutzim (anyone who doesn’t know these are racist instititions should wake up and smell the coffee) should be expropriated. Schools etc. should be de-Zionised. Those found guilty of Zionist activities should, I suggest, be stripped of Palestinian citizenship.

  18. Yes

    I find your passion for the Palestinians admirable. What I can’t get over is the view that the Palestinian nation are entitled to a state but the Scottish nation are not. Also that your unproven assertion that a Scottish state would be Zionist outweighs the stone cold certainty that the UK state is Zionist. You attack Alex Salmond vitriolically but fail to make any case for the UK.

  19. If you really want to not be part of the UK but presumably part of an independent Scotland), why have you not moved from Kent to Scotland in order to be able to vote for independence?

    At any rate, if Scotland votes for independence, will you move there, so as not to be part of the UK?

  20. I live in England. Hammond and his government (the “opposition” too) do not represent me. I reject strongly everything they and their Atlanticist, pro imperial, but vigorously flag waving, policies represent. Scottish nationalism (and nationalism is part of the toxic mix that sustains the UK government’s supposed legitimacy and authority) seems to assume that I am a fascist pig just because I live south of the border, and that cutting me adrift in an English nationalist pigsty will serve me right. But my principles and values have nothing to do with nationalism, and everything to do with human rights and the common good, regardless of borders. Scotland claims to want freedom from the neoliberal shackles of the global empire with all its blood soaked hypocrisy and duplicity – I can get behind that. But it has nothing to do with national flags and national pride.

  21. Please use your passion and courage to help bring about the change in the UK that is needed – rather than supporting division. There are many, many in England as well as Scotland who think the same as you do about this.

  22. By not voting they are ratifying and approving a Warsaw like ghetto and the killing innocent civilians. Everything that is happening in politics is only for the benefit of the isreali Zionist agenda , the politicians have been bought or have been brainwashed by the Zionist ideals .

    Everything that is happening in Middle East all the wars and coups is facilitated by the CIA Mossad and mi6 , how many wars has us and uk been in last ten years compare that with the likes of Iran who is the real warmonger and terrorist

    You can mention al Qaeda and Hezbollah and isis but all these are funded train ineed by Zionist to push out their propaganda. Uk is been sold out for isreal

  23. Abe Rene

    At the moment I am in Spain. I may move to Ghana. I do not know why you think citizens of any country should be locked in to it.

    I shall certainly be taking Scottish citizenship. I may very likely move to Scotland. But why you think that where Craig Murray lives has any impact on the viability of a Scottish state I cannot tell. As I have frequently made clear, I am an internationalist who believes that freedom of movement, particularly within the EU, is a great boon.

  24. Kate

    There are many in England who think as I do – but they are a much higher percentage of the population in Scotland, and Scotland has an electoral system which allows the Scottish Socialist Party and the Green Party much more present influence and exposure and future opportunity than their counterparts enjoy in England.

    But I believe that the departure of Scotland will be a massive kick to the English political system, that makes people realise change is possible. Those in England who want more than a choice between four neo-con parties I believe stand to gain from the vigorous shaking of the kaleidoscope that Scottish independence will give.

  25. I share the shame of everyone here of the British governments refusal to even investigate these obvious war crimes, on a par with changing the law on universal jurisdiction to protect Livni and other alleged Israeli war criminals entering the UK. Having said that, the Palestinian leadership themselves are failing their people by refusing to formally sign up for membership of the ICC [to achieve standing] Yesterday Riad Malki, the Palestinian foreign minister, appealed to the international community to hold Israel accountable for its actions in Gaza. “How many martyrs must die before Israel puts an end to its aggression?” The question that he needs to answer is how many must die before he and Abbas insist the Prosecutor at the ICC open an investigation into the situation in Occupied Palestinian Territory? With the first complaint being article 49.6 of the Geneva conventions and the corresponding article 8 of the ICC[UK Act 2001] dealing with the transfer of citizens of the occupier into occupied territory, this should be a slam dunk since the International Court of Justice [World Court] in 2004 has already given its opinion on this matter 15 judges to 0. Unfortunately President Abbas recently told the New York Times “I don’t like to go to the courts. I don’t like courts. I want to solve my problems directly between the parties”, this when a majority of the other Palestinian leadership members including Arekat and 17 NGO’s wanted Abbas to formally sign on to the ICC. Even the Prosecutor at the ICC said she is waiting for the Palestinians [“the ball is in their court”] but the collaborator Abbas will not move.Has he now changed his mind? I doubt it.

  26. This may be of interest. Russia prepares to develop Gaza gas field.

    http://www.robinwestenra.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/war-and-natural-gas-israeli-invasion.html

  27. Excellent argument Craig – I too am ashamed and right now if I thought Scotland would gain independence I would be looking over Loch Fyne with my long lost daughter from Inveraray.

  28. I simply cannot imagine a screen with Scotland on it with a green light next to Scotland.

    I should like to believe what you claim to imagine but it is simply inconceivable. No European country voted ‘Yes’, no member of NATO voted ‘Yes’. Scotland will wish to be seen as reliable partner in both these organisations, I cannot believe that a Scottish government would have chosen to vote in this way.

  29. Vronsky

    Would be good if it were true, but sadly it is complete bullshit. Russia, like many others, has simply marked its interest in Gazan gas AFTER a “settlement”. Not a hope in hell the Russians will develop it without Israeli agreement.

  30. Philip

    The UK is the loudest voice within the EU arguing for a blindly pro-Israeli position. The balance is finer than you might think.

  31. Craig

    I found the list of countries voting for an investigation into the Israeli killings interesting too but for a very different reason than you.

    Looking at the list you dream of a Scotland yes. Whereas I notice a very real truth:

    Austria Abst
    France Abst
    Germany Abst
    Ireland Abst
    Italy Abst
    Romania Abst
    United Kingdom Abst

    That’s every EU state on the list against an investigation.

    Coincidence? Unrelated to EU membership? A sure sign that the EU states will be better together?

    Or an indicator of something else?

    Down with the EU!

  32. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    24 Jul, 2014 - 10:52 am

    The trope that Israel is ‘defending itself’ seems to be getting swallowed whole, even by those who dimly sense that deploying the entire modern armoury against a captive civilian population maybe isn’t quite right. It needs challenging every time it is trotted out by the Israelis and their apologists. TFS posted this link yesterday – for those who missed it:

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/palestinians.php

    Behind the bland self-justification, that’s the reality. The longterm aim, faithfully pursued by successive Israeli governments, is ethnic cleansing, by any means available, without recognition of ethics, morals or anyone else’s opinion. To call this ‘defence’ is simply laughable. If Israel were interested in defending itself against attack by its historic victims, it would genuinely seek an accommodation. It would negotiate in good faith. It would open the crossings, permit trade, and permit free travel for the inhabitants of the ghetto. It would release prisoners held without charge after having been arrested as an act of revenge. And it would stop building settlements on Palestinian land.

    It doesn’t, and it won’t. Therefore it is not defending itself, but creating the conditions which guarantee it will always be under threat from people who are defending themselves, by the only means left to them by Israel.

    I’m not ashamed of being British – that’s something which has always meant a bit more than the venal tools we elect to govern us – and have little choice as to which tools we elect. Instead I’m deeply disgusted that the tools can’t scrape together enough principle to vote for the UN resolution (while noting that we didn’t actually vote No, like Israel’s big friend).

    And it’s increasingly obvious that what’s really responsible for our pusillanimity isn’t anything to do with rights, wrongs, morality or humanitarian concerns. It’s about money. About who pays our parties’ election bills. About who we sell arms to. About who might be willing, subject to not rocking the boat (sign here please), to create employment opportunities ,,,as our mutual friend Moishe is thinking of investing in a factory in his constituency.

  33. Or an indicator of something else?

    Such as : EU complicity in murder

    (just in case this wasn’t clear)

  34. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    24 Jul, 2014 - 11:09 am

    Agree, Phil…but basically, it’s follow-the-money time again.

    While I think this is peripheral, it’s still an important aspect of what’s going on:

    http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/2489992/armed_robbery_in_gaza_israel_us_uk_carve_up_the_spoils_of_palestines_stolen_gas.html

  35. Uzbek in the UK

    24 Jul, 2014 - 11:09 am

    Not sure what all hassle is about? It seems like IDF is just doing its job. What war crimes investigation? They need more time. they said it clearly.

    “The discoveries bring the number of tunnels intended for terrorist activity that the IDF has uncovered to 31. As the tunnels are dangerous and difficult to destroy, IDF forces have only destroyed nine of the tunnels thus far. The IDF stated that more time will be needed to uncover and destroy the terror tunnels in Gaza, which the army has stated is its primary goal in its Gaza operations.”

    http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/IAF-hits-35-targets-overnight-ground-forces-kill-several-Hamas-operatives-take-prisoners-368709

  36. Yes

    “chip-shouldered anti-English xenophobia” is incorrect and insulting.
    I see that disinformation promoted regularly by London based Journalists.
    The Yes campaign is more about democracy.

    Personalising the Yes movement to Alicsammin and the SNP dilutes your credibility.
    I’m sure you’re not a DailyMail reader and enthusiastic window licker but saying stuff like that does paint a picture.

    Palestinian children deserve better.

    Jim

  37. Uzbek in the UK

    24 Jul, 2014 - 11:14 am

    Since most people here trust RT on Russia’s war in Ukraine, I just thought why not trust Jpost on IDF operation in Gaza. Why would JPost be biased and twist information? Fair square?

  38. Craig
    “The balance is finer than you might think.”

    Is it really? Do tell. Or are you a dreamer?

    Apart from the dreamy hopes the harsh truth is Every EU state on the list is against an investigation!

    Down with the EU super government!

  39. Baal

    Yes I saw this gas thing come up on another site a few days ago but it got shot down as all the reports coming from one unsubstantiated source. I have no idea how true this is.

    Sorry to rush I have to go out.

  40. Looks like you’ve got yourself a wriggler there, Phil. Don’t let him go!

  41. Regarding the refusal of Abbas to insist on an investigation by the ICC, there has of course been pressure on him by the US Congress that they will withdraw US funding from Palestine if he does so. Also Israeli General Mandelblic asked for US assistance in dissuading Abbas from this course. He commented that Israel’s relations with the PA had been on a positive track, but described the
    PA,s actions as “war to take us to the ICC” and hoped the
    U.S. would help the PA understand the gravity of its actions.
    The Ambassador affirmed that the U.S. had consistently
    pressed the PA to cease such actions and had received
    assurances before Goldstone that the PA would freeze such
    attempts. http://wikileaks.org/cable/2010/02/10TELAVIV417.html

  42. Well said !!!
    Nothing will change until the US goes into meltdown.

  43. Harry Bannerman

    24 Jul, 2014 - 11:28 am

    It’s a mistake to think of Israel as a country in the usual sense.

    Israel is a western project, and that’s why you’ll hear little in the way of condemnation from western leaders.

    Israel is primarily a western colony whose aim is to ensure that Arabs don’t unite, and particularly any unification between ME Arabs and North African Arabs.

    It’s rather like Poland in that regard, whose prime function is to ensure there is no unity between Russia and Europe.

  44. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    24 Jul, 2014 - 11:34 am

    Phil –
    If you have time to read the Ecologist article I linked to, in full, you’ll see that it’s supported by numerous references, and that its major critic is closely connected with the Israeli project.

    A central question, from this:

    Why was Netanyahu simultaneously pushing forward negotiations over Gaza’s gas, while also blocking and excluding any deal that would grant any Palestinian entity inclusion in the deal?

  45. Uzbek in the UK

    24 Jul, 2014 - 11:35 am

    “Nothing will change until the US goes into meltdown.”

    And what will change then? Will we all live happily ever after? The same was sad many centuries ago about Romans, then about Ottomans, about French, British, Russians? This is cycle of history. Empires crumble only to give way to another empire.

    And you sit there wearing your pink glasses.

  46. Uzbek in the UK
    24 Jul, 2014 – 11:09 am

    —————————–

    Uzbek, are you Special Branch or MI5 ?

  47. It’s a nice thought Craig,Scotland the Brave standing up for the Palestinians!
    In reality,it would be a small indebted country and it would do what the money tells it to do.
    Labour,Conservative,Lib/Dem and EU all support Israel…………..I thought there was another party which is very unlikely to be so supportive,but for obvious reasons has to keep it’s mouth shut?

  48. Uzbek in the UK

    24 Jul, 2014 - 11:40 am

    @Harry Bannerman

    Quite a racist mate, are you not? There was no unity between Arabs since end of 9th century (under Arabs leadership) and there was no unity between Muslims, never. Poor knowledge of history, plus anti-Semitic shit gives way to the stupid conclusions.

    And thinking that Poland is on the way of Russian-European unification is … well I have no words for it. There was time (300 years) when Poland did not exist and that time (accidentally) coincided with perpetual war between Russia and Europe.

    Get real.

  49. Harry Bannerman

    24 Jul, 2014 - 11:41 am

    Should the Western empire collapse, then we’ll all have a bit of breathing space until another gets up and running.

    There’s no one else currently who can do the damage the US is doing on a global scale.

  50. The hypocrisy of the “civilised” debating society in UN the whole board is either green or white (the subservient coattail hangers), and the motion is defeated.

    That is the motion, to “investigate”, nothing other than fact finding and recording, yet this too was defeated. Making a mockery of historical “facts” and “accuracies”, for if it is not recorded, then it dose not exist! Note the millions of Iraqi dead, that is passed as 120,000! Thus the genocide and war crimes of the zionist supremacists shall be disputed.

    This is further compounded by foreign secretary Hammond appearing next to not so amused Nat-an-yahoo delivering platitudes as to “right to defend” only for zionists scum, and more platitudes with an added caveat; “grave concerns for civilian casualties” note the gutless, ball-less half hearted protest without daring to mention that these civilians referred to are Palestinians, mainly the women, children and old and infirm Palestinians.

    There is no record so there can be no future war crimes commission investigating any of these war crimes, and crimes against peace, and crimes against humanity committed by a rabidly racist Jewish supremacists.

    Now back to the grind, where did I put that file about this chap who looks like that Nazi guard in some place in Germany during WWII, damn war criminal ought to be tried for his war crimes.

  51. Phil

    OK, I will tell, as you asked.

    The EU states voted together. They nearly but not always do. They have a treaty obligation to “strive to reach a common position.”

    But in reaching that common position, the balance was finer than you might think. The UK is the leader of the pro-Zionist and pro-US position in the EU. Start to break up the UK, and add another country to the pro-human rights side, and you start to affect the balance.

    In fact breaking up the UK, which acts as the US proxy in internal EU debates, is a good thing not just on Palestine.

    Hope that helps :-)

  52. Uzbek in the UK

    24 Jul, 2014 - 11:48 am

    @doug scorgie

    “Uzbek, are you Special Branch or MI5 ?”

    Is this your smoking gun against me, mad western leftie creature?

  53. Uzbek in the UK

    24 Jul, 2014 - 11:52 am

    Mr Murray,

    And what insurances you have that Independent Scotland will be anti-US? Last time I looked there were more people of Scottish origin in the US (many of whom done well) than in Scotland. Is not this Anglo-Saxon unity not that US/UK unity?

  54. Свердлов

    24 Jul, 2014 - 11:53 am

    “Not sure what all hassle is about? It seems like IDF is just doing its job”
    Ты козел, там детей убивают, людей калечат просто за то что они хотят чтобы вернули им свои земли, родину. А ты сука про хасл масл, чекнутый чмо еврейское.

  55. Uzbek in the UK

    24 Jul, 2014 - 11:59 am

    @Harry Bannerman

    “There’s no one else currently who can do the damage the US is doing on a global scale.”

    I say give them a chance. It is estimated that more than 30 million died in decades of conflicts during Cold War (and it was not just US, there were two major participants in this conflict). It is estimated that Nazis killed more than 40 million during WWII. It is estimated that Stalin’s purges killed at least 8 million. It is estimated that Mao’s Great Leap Forward killed at least 60 million.

    But you did not know about this, did you? Or do not give a shit about it, do you?

  56. Agree Harry Bannerman. I have some understanding of Poland sandwiched between Germany and three former Soviet republics, including Ukraine that was ruled by a communist puppet government until 1989.

    Poland has worthless paper guarantees of safety while Israel has US muscle and US Dollars.

  57. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    24 Jul, 2014 - 12:01 pm

    Y’know, I’m beginning to favour UKIP. If Craig’s right, and the balance in the EU is a fine one, then a serious threat from UKIP, whether or not we leave the EU, will inspire Cameron to alienate the EU still further. To the point where reaction sets in, and the rest of the members wonder whether they really want to be seen as supporting ethnic cleansing. (Discuss!)

    Whereas, if Scotland secedes, and economic imperatives force it to lend an ear to its indigenous friends of Israel…not so certain, I think.

  58. It’s official. Protesting against Israel is anti-Semitic!

    “European Union foreign ministers condemned anti-Semitic incidents at Gaza protests across the EU when they met on Tuesday.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28439988

  59. Uzbek in the UK

    24 Jul, 2014 - 12:03 pm

    Свердлов

    The same could be said about murderers in Ukraine operating with Krelmin’s blessing and supplied by Russian guns. People are dying in Ukraine too, in case you have not noticed.

    But your small Butthole brain cells are not capable of thinking, are they? You write what you were told to write. You think what you were told to think. I know your kind. The worst kind of human beings on the planet.

  60. Uzbek.
    When the US goes into meltdown, the bully loses its big brother with the never ending wallet and stores of bombs and bullets.Without US support the Zionastys will hopefully fade away.
    You meant rose tinted didnT’ you ? Empires come and empires go and the sooner American century ends the better for peace everywhere.
    I don’t think there is anything wrong with a happy ending for the Palestinians if possible.Do you ?
    There are no assurances that a Scottish Govt would be anti American.. Scotland depends on the US for tourism and Whisky sales.Their approach will be a friendly one I’m sure,while at the same time telling the US navy to take their nukes out of Scotland.
    The US has proven time and again that economic sanctions are more effective than Nukes… and environmentally friendly.

  61. Uzbek in the UK

    24 Jul, 2014 - 12:10 pm

    mark golding

    Can you please clarify, what exactly you agree about Poland with Harry Bannerman? I wasn’t to enrich my understanding on this subject. Let’s say look at it from different angle.

    Cheers.

  62. Craig
    “Hope that helps”

    Not at all thank you. How could it when all you do is repeat “the balance was finer than you might think” but this time with more words around it. You add nothing beyond your hope for a better future. Your thesis denies the rule of neo liberal corporate state. Well I face the reality today as an indicator of the future.

    The balance was 100% against an investigation into massacre from the EU states.

    You correctly say “UK Complicity in Massacre”.

    You are blind to “EU Complicity in Massacre”.

    I say “Down with the EU! No to massive, centralised, distant government!

  63. Uzbek in the UK

    24 Jul, 2014 - 12:18 pm

    DoNNyDarKo

    I read somewhere that conflict between Arabs and Jews has started long before first European put their foot on American soil. Now you ask me to trust you on that when US goes to the meltdown Palestinians will win and Israel will cease to exist? Shall I at least question why do you think so.

    Accidentally, you might be aware that Stalin (USSR) did as much for the establishment of Jewish state as US. Stalin also wanted to have vassal state in the Middle East. But it seemed that US had upper hand (more Jews and better relations with them in general). Since end of 1980th Soviet Jews have in their millions migrated to the Israel thus providing surplus of Soviet Jews there, but most of them hated their former masters and would not want to serve Soviet/Russian interests. But this could easily change if needed.

    Think about it. Open your eyes and think.

  64. Baal, OK I will read it later. Sorry being shouted at from the other side of the front door.

  65. There seems to be some daydreaming going on today about the end of empires. At least the American concept has some ideals, which we could all aspire to (even if in practice America (like all of us) is failing badly and betraying those ideals). It is worth remembering that when an empire or state or any power falls it is not the daydreamers who benefit.

  66. Thank you Sverdlov @ 11.53am. I agree with your comment. Some people have hearts of stone.

  67. Some of Israel’s war crimes committed during Cast Lead
    December 27, 2008 – January 18, 2009
    (3 weeks and 1 day)

    1,417 Palestinians were killed including many children.

    Total wounded: 5,303 (PCHR)

    Total captured: 120

    Israel accused of war crimes over 12-hour assault on Gaza village
    White flags ignored and houses bulldozed with families inside, claim residents
    Fida Qishta in Khuza’a and Peter Beaumont in London
    The Observer, Sunday 18 January 2009

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jan/18/israel-war-crimes-gaza-conflict

    The Israelis were NEVER brought to court or punished.

  68. There seems to be some daydreaming going on today about the end of empires

    Have you forgotten the end years of USSR?

    Look around you, the only, repeat only “promise” (in return for the imposed drudgery, inequality, crime, corruption,…) of freedom to buy “things” has taken a huge knock, and there seems to be no end to the recession.

    The amounts of bullets bought by DHS, police cruisers are getting replaced by Police APC (Armoured Personnel Carriers), Boris in London is buying water cannons. Can you not see the disarray and desperation in every corner you glance at?

    Emperor has no clothes, it is all a light and shadow theatre.

  69. Ray Jinghar-Don

    24 Jul, 2014 - 1:07 pm

    “I want to be part of a country of which I am not ashamed”

    Luckily Scots are beyond corruption and ineptitude, and have played no part in your current shame, because you’d be in for one helluva wake up call otherwise.

    Oops…

  70. Свердлов

    24 Jul, 2014 - 1:09 pm

    Ok, here is a piece for your pea sized chicken brain Uzbek. In Ukraine rebels are fighting for independence against the military. Have they specifically murder children on the beach, or bomb hospitals, like your zionist friends doing in Palestine? Besides, these rebels would not be fighting if your ziomasters did not remove by force the constitutionally elected President. Why couldn’t they wait until end of constitutional term of Yanukovich. More than half in Kiev government today have dual citizenship, second being of Israel. Did you know that? Obviously not, because your chicken brain stuck in zbc news, it is you who has got no independent opinion, who has got no religion or nationality. You are zombie. You turned up in the UK by cheating and creating stories about torture in Uzbekistan so just to get asylum, but now you are hailing the long term torturers, child killers. Even Karimov does not take the side of the apartheid regime in Israel. You are simply a moron, who has been outcast by destiny from your old friends, family. You can not even name yourself. You double faced свинья.

  71. Uzbek says “But your small Butthole brain cells are not capable of thinking, are they?”

    This kind of insult reeks of a “chosen” attitude, we have a right to know if you are a jew – just Uzbek in the Uk wont do. We need to know where you are coming from before listening to any of your stuff against Putin. eg you could have been a Khodorokovsky agent in Uzbek land before they threw you out?

  72. Gaza Conflict From Space In ‘Saddest Photo’

    Explosions are spotted more than 200 miles above the Earth as the International Space Station flies over Israel and Gaza.An astronaut has posted a picture from the International Space Station while flying over Gaza and Israel, showing the worsening crisis which has left more than 700 people dead.

    http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/7/24/325213/default/v1/btpyq3ccyaek1s2-1-942×530.jpg

    German flight engineer Alexander Gerst captured the scene from 220 miles above the Earth as rockets and explosions lit up the night sky with wispy yellow light.

    His photo quickly went viral on the internet as he tweeted the message: “My saddest photo yet. From #ISS we can actually see explosions and rockets flying over #Gaza & #Israel.”

    Tens of thousands around the world shared the image as international pressure grows to stop the bloodshed in Gaza.

    The UN Human Rights Council says there is a “strong possibility” Israel is guilty of war crimes in Gaza, where some 715 Palestinians, including 165 children, have died in the fighting.

    Sky News
    ~~

    All very sad.

  73. What’s the title of that song from Fiddler on the Roof? If I Were A Rich Man.

    El Al fares jump by up to 150% after foreign airlines cancel flights :)

    Airline denies price hike is connected to cancellation of flights of U.S. and European carriers.

    By Rina Rozenberg | 12:00 24.07.14 |

    Within hours after most foreign airlines flying to Israel suspended flights, demand for seats on Israeli carriers — practically the only ones left plying the routes — skyrocketed, and so did airfares.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.606872

  74. Jonangus Mackay

    24 Jul, 2014 - 1:26 pm

    ‘Most of these people deserve to die.’ How IDF constantly refines in Gaza SS techniques of state terror. It’s become a global industry: Israel’s ‘pacification technology’ accounts for a third of its exports. Why this country the size of Wales is now the world’s third-biggest exporter of arms. Gaza has become the world’s biggest R&D lab. Its trapped population are its guinea pigs:

    https://twitter.com/jonangusmackay/status/492274754448277504

  75. I agree with you Ba’al(with Gaza)an independent Scotland that wants to continue high state expenditure and with high debt is likely to be saying “Yes Sir” quite a lot to the money men.
    All the three main parties appear to condone Israel in it’s attack on Palestinian civilians,as does the EU.

  76. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    24 Jul, 2014 - 1:42 pm

    Words of outrage from the UN; that’s all.

    Cast Lead had some notable war crimes. What is the disposition of that 5 year-old event?

    I shudder to think another will occur before any consequences arise.

  77. Craig
    This whole “balance finer than you think” thing…
    This whole “unproven assertion that a Scottish state would be Zionist” thing…
    This whole “Scotland has an electoral system that allows the Scottish Socialist…zzzz” thing…

    You’re just dreaming.
    I remember when you joined the Libdems as well. And look how that turned out.

    I think if Scotland votes for independence, and if I had a vote I would probably vote yes, just on the off chance of change, what you will end up with is a mini me corrupt, NATO-supporting, Zionism-supporting, standard issue EU small country with a desire to suck hard on the tit of the EU and see if they can do better out of it than, say Ireland.
    And Salmond and his pals and their heirs will lord it over everyone else and it will be mired in corruption almost from day one.

    But just in the off chance I’m wrong, I would vote for independence. Basically, it’s a faith based endeavour!

  78. Scotland only European state to oppose US – dream on…

  79. Message from a physician in Gaza within the last hour. His own hospital is wrecked.

    ‘Greetings from the bombarded, massacred yet triumphant Gaza. (Pyrrhic??)’

    I am still in Gaza city, living near to the main Palestine square in the same home you have visited before with ….. Every hour or even minutes lots and lots of extremely loud explosions that shake the city from all directions.

    I posted some pictures of the ongoing massacre against families and civilians on my facebook. Currently I am at Shifa hospital where I try to help.

    The filthy Egyptian government has called for a ceasefire from all parties without achieving any lifting of the siege in order to steal victory from Palestinians. (Rub their noses in the sand) The Egyptian initiative came after the Turkish and Qatari initiative was being formulated which ensured lifting the siege off Gaza.

    I just want you to keep in touch, make prayers and take care of your self.’

    He is one of a gracious and polite people. Also very well educated. They have their own university and medical school. British doctors go out to teach when they are allowed in,

  80. Bloody bastard. He was a ‘witness’ on that dreadful Melanie Phillips ZBC vehicle The Moral Maze last night. I did not listen.

    ex.British AFGHANISTAN Military Expert advises iOf on GAZA…

    ‘IDF does more than any other army to prevent civilian deaths’

    INTERVIEW: Colonel Richard Kemp, former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, talks to Ynet about Israel’s military and moral superiority over Hamas, and says Israel should hit Gaza harder and faster. [ See video ]

    Attila Somfalvi
    Published: 07.24.14, 11:52 / Israel News

    LINK : http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4548821,00.html

    Israel’s military makes more effort than any other army to prevent civilian casualties, but should be more aggressive in Gaza, says Colonel (ret.) Richard Kemp CBE, the former commander of the British armed forces in Afghanistan and fierce international advocate for the IDF.

    “I would like to see the IDF operating much faster, going in perhaps harder and faster, that’s what I would like to see,” Kemp told Ynet on Wednesday.

    “But having said that, I recognize – as you recognize – the pressures on Israel from all around the world to absolutely minimize the number of civilian casualties they’re causing”, he added. “I believe that on the basis of everything that I’ve seen, that everything the IDF does to protect civilians and to stop the death of innocent civilians is a great deal more than any other army, and it’s more than the British and the American armies.”

    Kemp, who was a strong advocate for Israel in the wake of 2012’s Operation Pillar of Defense in Gaza, said he had come to Israel now “to get as close a view as I can of the current conflict, so I can make my own assessment of what’s happened, to contribute to the international commentary that’s taking place on Israel.”

  81. ‘Disgustingly Biased’ – The Corporate Media On The Gaza Massacre
    Posted by The Editors on July 24, 2014, 2:06 pm
    Board Administrator

    Now permanently archived here:

    http://www.medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2014/772-gaza-massacre.html

    Best wishes

    The Editors

    ~~~

    Excuse my language above. I am getting angrier and angrier.

  82. The scum have committed a terrible war crime here. A UN school is shelled. 15 are dead.

    Israeli fire hits UN facility in Gaza, killing 15
    http://www.mail.com/int/news/world/3001844-israeli-fire-hits-un-facility-gaza-killing-7.html#.1258-stage-hero1-8

  83. I thought to abstain meant not expressing an opinion either way rather than opposing.

    Yes all the european countries abstained, including Ireland. Why would an independent Scotland be any different?

  84. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    24 Jul, 2014 - 4:27 pm

    Still nothing on Gaza from the Quartet representative, the “Rt.Hon” Tony Blair, for the last ten days.Will he utter before he flies to China? He’s joining Bill Clinton on or about the 25th, to schmooze at the 4th Huatuo CEO Forum, if this is correct:

    http://www.nation.sc/article.html?id=242346

    The Guangzhou forum which is being hosted by Yan Jiehe, chairman of the China Pacific Construction Group and promoter of the Huatuo Economic Forum, is expected to be attended by over 1000 leading Chinese business leaders and such international dignitaries as former President Bill Clinton; the Hon. Tony Blair; Lee Myung-Bak, the 47th President of South Korea; Kevin Rudd, former Prime Minister of Australia as well as the following dignitaries and Nobel Prize laureates: Janet Napolitano (chairman of the University of California); Prof. Thomas Sargent (2011 Nobel Prize Economics); Edmund Phelps (2006 Nobel Prize in Economics) and Gene Sperling (chairman Economic Committee of Clinton & Obama Administrations).

    Mr Jiehe is one of the most influential business figures in China today having won numerous awards such as ‘The most excellent entrepreneurs’, ‘One of the Top News Figure’, ‘Talented and influential Chinese business leader’.

    ‘Kowtow’ is probably the action Tone has in mind. Very profitable kowtow.

    His silence and apparent inactivity since he manifestly failed to get an Israeli wish-list accepted by Fatah, and never went near Hamas, are beginning to suggest that he has now been sidelined, and may in the not too distant future step down from what (as he is speaking from a script) can only be described as his role. Peter Oborne recently had an excellent idea for his replacement:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100280613/after-tony-blairs-failure-baroness-ashton-should-be-the-next-middle-east-peace-envoy/

  85. The BBC report on the latest atrocity. The shelter was shelled by the Israeli navy apparently.

    Shelling ‘kills 15 in Gaza shelter’
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28468526

    Sky have just shown footage of the hospital receiving casualties including tiny babes. Scenes from hell.

  86. You “had to resign”? Lord Jones seems to think you were recalled and dismissed:

    http://www.theyworkforyou.com/lords/?id=2010-11-11a.345.3&s=%22craig+murray%22#g369.0

  87. According to the Irish Times it was the wording of the draft that was not acceptable, biased and likely to influence the outcome.

    This is from the OHCR itself.

    http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/IICIOPT.aspx

    ” Pillay also condemned the indiscriminate firing of rockets by Hamas and other armed groups and the location of military assets in densely populated areas. Two Israeli civilians have died, 27 Israeli soldiers have been killed during the military operations and between 17 and 32 others have been injured, she said. ”

    If the BBC published that there’d be accusations of bias flying in all directions.

  88. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    24 Jul, 2014 - 5:13 pm

    Don’t quote out of context, Kempe.

    The UN Human Rights Council met in Special Session following the launch of the Israeli military operation, “Protective Edge”, directed at Gaza. In the two weeks since, more than 600 Palestinians, including at least 147 children have been killed in the intensive bombardment from the air, land and sea. The UN estimates of those killed, more than 70 percent have been civilians.

    [The UN Human Rights Council holds a Special Session to discuss the conflict in Gaza © UN Photo/Violaine Martin] Speaking at the Special Session, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay, cited these figures and also described the destruction of hundreds of homes and other civilian buildings.

    Pillay also condemned the indiscriminate firing of rockets by Hamas and other armed groups and the location of military assets in densely populated areas. Two Israeli civilians have died, 27 Israeli soldiers have been killed during the military operations and between 17 and 32 others have been injured, she said.

    However, Pillay said international law is clear: “the actions of one party do not absolve the other party of the need to respect its obligations under international law.”

    “Civilian homes are not legitimate targets,” Pillay said, “unless they are being used for, or contribute to, military purposes at the time in question.”

    The High Commissioner was unequivocal that civilians should not be targeted. “It is imperative that Israel, Hamas and all Palestinian armed groups strictly abide by applicable norms of international humanitarian law and international human rights law.” Citing examples where it appeared civilian homes had been targeted; Pillay said there is “a strong possibility that international humanitarian law has been violated, in a manner that could amount to war crimes.”

    The resolution passed by the Human Rights Council establishes an international commission to investigate all violations of international humanitarian law and international human rights law in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and the occupied Gaza Strip in the context of military operations conducted since mid June. The inquiry will establish the facts and circumstances of any violations and identify those responsible. The resolution says the purpose of the investigation is to end impunity, ensure those responsible are held accountable and to assist in the protection of civilians.

    Kyung-wha Kang, the Assistant Secretary-General of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, in her address to the Council, drew attention to the attacks on medical facilities and staff, “such action is completely unacceptable and is a flagrant violation of international law,” she said.

    Kang described the “terror and trauma” of civilians who are given warnings to leave their homes but have no safe place to go. She pointed out that 44 percent of Gaza has been declared a “no-go zone” by the Israeli army.

    While negotiations for a ceasefire proceed, Kang said, there must be a pause in the conflict to allow aid workers to reach people desperate for help. Humanitarian workers must be permitted, she said, to mount search and rescue operations, to assist in repair of essential infrastructure, to assist the wounded and retrieve bodies.

    Lance Bartholomeusz, the Acting Director of Legal Affairs from the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), describing a devastating human and physical toll on Gazan civilians, said by late 22 July, 118,000 Palestinians had sought refuge in 77 of the Agency’s schools. That is six percent of the Gazan population.

    “It is evident to those of us on the ground that the situation of the population of Gaza and of Palestine refugees in Gaza has become completely unsustainable,” he said, pointing to unemployment rates of 65 percent for young people and 80 percent for women.

    Pillay too, referred to the “crippling effects of the Israeli blockade”, a situation where there is very little water to be had, fuel and medicines are in critically short supply and electricity is reduced to a few hours a day. The High Commissioner reiterated her call for the blockade to be lifted once and for all.

    The independent experts appointed by the Human Rights Council to address specific human rights concerns and particular situations in a number of countries, the Special Procedures as they are known, were also represented at the Special Session.

    The Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967, Makarim Wibisono speaking on behalf of the Coordination Committee of the Special Procedures urged regard for international law and called for prompt, independent investigations of alleged breaches.

    “In Israel and Palestine, the politics of conflict, peace and security are constantly leading to the downgrading, or setting aside, of the importance of binding international human rights law and international humanitarian law. International law is not negotiable. No individual or state can be considered exempt, if they violate the law,” Pillay said.

    Describing the conflict as “dreadful and interminable”, the High Commissioner asked, ”What must we finally do to move beyond a ceasefire that will inevitably be broken again in two or three years?” The answer, or at least a first step, Pillay said, is accountability, “ensuring that the cycle of human rights violations and impunity is brought to an end.

    The independent, international commission of inquiry will report to the Council at its 28th session in March 2015.

  89. ‘”Precise co-ordinates of the UNRWA shelter had been formally given to the Israeli army,” Chris Gunness, a spokesman for the UN’s Palestinian refugee agency, said on his Twitter account.

    He told AFP news agency: “We’ve spent much of the day trying to negotiate or to co-ordinate a window so that civilians, including our staff, could leave.

    “That was never granted… and the consequences of that appear to be tragic.”

    Another UN official told AFP news agency they had tried to get people to leave the school shortly before the attack, fearing it might be a target.

    He said: “We were talking to the shelter asking them to leave, as we feared it was a potential target.”

    Israel’s military said it had acted “against a terrorist target located in a populated area”.

    Gaza Division Commander General Micky Edelstein said: “We use various technology, like radio or messaging to ask the population to leave.

    “We need to investigate what happened here.”‘

    The Israeli story of terrrrrists under the bed and weapons being stored is wearing thin. Their blood lust is ruling their actions.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28468526

  90. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    24 Jul, 2014 - 6:07 pm

    If UK is complicit, perhaps our locals could find Pooooootin is personally and entirely responsible.

  91. doug scorgie

    24 Jul, 2014 - 6:23 pm

    “It’s a travesty of justice; it’s a travesty of fairness; it’s a travesty of common sense; it’s a travesty of truth,” Netanyahu said.

    His remarks came after the UN Human Rights Council (UNHRC) launched a commission on Wednesday to investigate Israel’s war crimes in Gaza.

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/24/372612/netanyahu-slams-un-plan-to-probe-israel/

  92. doug scorgie

    24 Jul, 2014 - 6:24 pm

    Kempe
    24 Jul, 2014 – 4:27 pm

    “I thought to abstain meant not expressing an opinion either way rather than opposing.”

    You thought wrong Kempe.

    “If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.”

    (Desmond Tutu)

  93. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    24 Jul, 2014 - 6:30 pm

    Can the EU avoid complicity by actually doing somenting?

    “To this day, the international community has not done enough to stop Israeli settlements. European countries have profoundly criticised them while continuing to co-operate fully with Israel, economically, politically and militarily. As a result, Israel does not pay any price for seriously violating international law. On the contrary, Europe also pays for much of the humanitarian damage of the occupation, making it even easier for Israel to maintain.
    A year ago, the EU made a small step in the right direction: guidelines were issued prohibiting EU institutions to fund or to finance research organisations and activities in the settlements. Twenty European countries have published formal warnings to their citizens and companies regarding trade and financial relations with the settlements.
    And yet, these measures do not seriously challenge Israeli policy in occupied Palestine. Europe could do much better as illustrated by its response to Russia’s annexation of Crimea. It took the EU a few weeks – not years – to make its stance against Russian actions crystal clear. Just this week the EU has taken a further bold step in suspending the funding of new public-sector projects”

    http://www.juancole.com/2014/07/sakharov-laureate-palestinians.html

  94. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    24 Jul, 2014 - 6:52 pm

    Jews acting like Nazis, ISIS acting like Israelis……what kind of genuine ‘help’ can the worldwide community provide?

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/23/purged-by-isis-iraq-christians-appeal-to-world-for-help/

    “Assyrian Christians, including Chaldean and Syriac Catholics, Syriac Orthodox and followers of the Assyrian Church of the East have roots in present day Iraq, Turkey, Syria and Iran that stretch back to the time of Jesus Christ. While they have long been a minority and have faced persecution in the past, they had never been driven completely from their homes as has happened in Mosul under ISIS. When the terror group ordered all to convert to Islam, pay a religious tax or face execution, many chose another option: flight.

    “By 12 noon on Saturday, the Christians — all of them — left the city,” Yousif Habash, an Iraqi-born bishop of the Syriac Catholic Church, told FoxNews.com.

    Mosul, Iraq’s second-largest city, included 60,000 Christians in 2003. By last month, the number had dwindled to just 35,000. It now stands at zero, according to Ignatius Yousef Younan III, patriarch of the Syrian Catholic Church.”

  95. Shame on Israel. Shame on the Jews.
    Shame on them for not seeing the juxtaposition.

  96. ” If you are neutral in situations of injustice, ”

    The intent is for the commission to determine if any injustices have been done. It might seem like an open and shut case but that demonstrates the bias and assumption of guilt the abstaining countries claimed not to have wanted in the draft.

  97. demonstrates the bias and assumption of guilt the abstaining countries claimed not to have wanted in the draft.

    Turbolol

    Regardless of obfuscations of the zionist scum the world will remember; their war crimes, and crimes against humanity, as Pinochet was reduced to a blubbering idiot, so shall those rabid racists zionists shall be, when they are held accountable too. (yeah he was left free to pretend he was suffering from dementia! the fall of the butchers is always silent)

    Those bent on stomping on any investigations in the hope of destruction of evidence of their crimes, forget that world has witnessed the inhumanity and appalling barbarous genocide of the zionist scum.

    We all have come across the keyboard apology brigade and we know the extent of tacit acceptance of murder, land theft, war crimes. We shall remember!

  98. Ben Has Obama had anything to say especially about today’s atrocity which I think is the most cruel so far? If he stood up to the Jewish lobby and turned off the tap which spews out taxpayers’ dollars by the billion, Israel would collapse like a soufflé.

    ~~~

    This is an interview with Ilan Pappé – today’s date.

    http://zcomm.org/znetarticle/making-sense-of-gaza-an-interview-with-ilan-pappe/

    About him http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilan_Papp%C3%A9

  99. ‘Now imagine that board with Scotland on it and a green light next to it.’

    Craig- as Ron/Phil/Geoffrey et al have pointed out this is pure wishful thinking on your part.

    BTW I’ve just seen Jon Snow on C4 attempt at interview with with an Israeli spokesman about the attack on the UN school. The spokesman tried to muddy the waters by saying that Hamas mortars aimed at Israeli tanks may have ‘fallen short’.

    Even in the unlikely event that this is true, surely if you have hundreds of foreign tanks rampaging around your country you have ‘the right to defend yourself’- a right Israeli spokesmen have claimed for themselves again and again in recent weeks.

  100. Passerby – I agree about the signs, but the timing of these matters like financial markets is not easily predicted. My point was that when there is a vacuum we tend to fall not rise.

    George Gurdjieff in one of the more easily read chapters of Belezebub’s Tales wrote

    “I never yet met that idiot who, accustomed to shuffle in a pair of old shoes, would feel comfortable in smart new ones” –

    that at least the old ruling class usually have the habit of ruling, whereas those newly attained to power lack even the automatic ability to rule.

    I accept that those now in power also lack even the automatic ability to rule.

    Jesus said: “Be a passer by.

  101. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    24 Jul, 2014 - 7:43 pm

    Mary;

    Obama is busy with fund-raisers for the mid-terms this Fall. I’m sure he will have some sort of platitude to offer at a Presser.

  102. ‘massacre’ mostly impacting children

    Ashraf al-Qidra, a spokesperson for the Gaza Health Ministry, said that another 200 people were wounded in the attack on a compound offering shelter to those who had already fled the fighting elsewhere.

    While the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) had no immediate comment on the incident, news agency photographers reported seeing pools of blood on the ground in the courtyard of the school near the apparent impact mark of a shell.

    It comes after the UN’s humanitarian chief drew attention to the “major concern” of child fatalities in the conflict, which has seen one child killed every hour over the past three days.

  103. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    24 Jul, 2014 - 8:27 pm

    …Jon Snow on C4 attempt at interview with with an Israeli spokesman about the attack on the UN school. The spokesman tried to muddy the waters by saying that Hamas mortars aimed at Israeli tanks may have ‘fallen short’.

    Just heard Regev depositing that one on R4. Wonder what Israeli tanks were doing in the vicinity of the centre? Defending Israel, naturally. And it’s hard to see from the images* so far available what possible use the round in question would have been against a tank. There isn’t a big crater, and the blast seems to have been symmetrical.

    *claimed images. Site cleaned completely, leaving only impact area visible.

    http://www.trust.org/item/20140724164058-svcjf/?source=search

    And note:

    …..military spokesman Lt. Col. Peter Lerner said the military had urged the U.N. and the Red Cross to evacuate the school for three days leading up to the incident.

    The U.N. said it was trying to do just that when the school was hit. Agency spokesman Chris Gunness said the U.N. had asked the Israeli military for a lull in fighting to allow for the school’s evacuation but did not hear back. Why not?

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/gaza-fighting-rages-amid-cease-fire-efforts-24690044

  104. Germany calls the shots in the EU, not the UK, and its history means it will never question Israel, no matter what the circumstances. Germany and the USA have the economic might to get their way on whatever they want, and they would make sure an independent Scotland fell into line, just as they do with the UK.

  105. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    24 Jul, 2014 - 9:12 pm

    Mary

    You include in your denunciation of Baroness Amos the observation “No time for marriage or children.”
    _____________________

    Are you critical of people who are unmarried and without children in general, or just in the case of Baroness Amos?

    ***************

    And while you’re replying, perhaps you could just tell us whether you were married to a widower or divorcee and whether you have your own children or just step-children?

  106. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    24 Jul, 2014 - 9:15 pm

    Ron

    “I like the idea of a proud Scotland voting in favour of an investigation and maybe generally being on the right side. Problem is, what evidence does anyone have that the new Scottish state won’t simply fall in line with prevailing views? Note all the EU members voted as one (excuse me if I missed something, but that’s how it looked to me).”
    ____________________________

    I fear that you’re correct: there is coordination between EU Member States before UN votes.

    To be noted that an independent Scotland would wish to remain a member of the EU.

  107. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    24 Jul, 2014 - 9:17 pm

    “Germany calls the shots in the EU,”

    I see that now. How does the proscribed competition articles jibe with that? France and London don’t seem happy.

  108. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    24 Jul, 2014 - 9:19 pm

    Yes

    “I sometimes wonder whether anti-Zionists might apply en masse for citizenship of countries which do not stand idly by letting the ‘elephant in the dining room’ murder one Arab child every three days for 15 years and get their disgusting puppets to insist that they “have a right to defend themselves”. Countries such as Bolivia, Veneuzela, and of course Palestine itself.”
    ______________________

    I really do think you’re into something qith your suggestion.

    And look forward to hearing from the Eminences whether they have given, or will give, serious consideration to that suggestion as far as they themselves are concerned. Mary? Ba’al? MJ? Anyone else?

  109. Ben.
    24 Jul, 2014 – 5:56 pm on Ceasefire-My Arse thread.

    “…Maybe now that their ox is being gored…”

    It seems, while our Government representatives kepp their eyes shut tight and absrain from investigating the high explosive, industrial scale massacre ongoing in Gaza, at least Navi Pillay is stirring at last…

    “…the actions of one party do not absolve the other party of the need to respect its obligations under international law….

    Civilian homes are not legitimate targets, unless they are being used for, or contribute to, military purposes at the time in question.”

    Also Kyung-wha Kang, Assistant Secretary-General of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs referring to attacks on medical facilities and staff…

    …“such action is completely unacceptable and is a flagrant violation of international law…”

    Time for a return to the Geneva Convention?

    Here are a few key points for slow learners.

    “Sey elements of the Hague and Geneva Conventions
    Unlawful Targets

    The attack of noncombatants and protected
    property is illegal.

    Lawful Targets

    Combatants- a combatant is any one engaging in hostilities in an armed conflict on behalf of a party to the conflict.
    Military Objectives- A combatant, a dependent place, and those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use, make an effective contribution to military action.

    Incidental Injury and Collateral Damage- Unavoidable and unplanned damage to civilian personnel and property incurred while attacking a military objective.

    NONCOMBATANTS

    CIVILIANS

    WOUNDED AND SICK

    HORS DE COMBAT

    PRISONERS OF WAR

    PARACHUTISTS OF DISABLED AIRCRAFT

    MEDICAL PERSONNEL

    CHAPLAINS

    JOURNALISTS

    Please take note Kempe.

  110. Oops!

    Key elements…

  111. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    24 Jul, 2014 - 9:26 pm

    Craig

    “But why you think that where Craig Murray lives has any impact on the viability of a Scottish state I cannot tell.”

    ____________________

    Abe Rene, in his post at 10h07, makes no mention of the “viability” of a Scottish state, whether in relation to where you live or otherwise.

  112. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    24 Jul, 2014 - 9:31 pm

    sofia; Lots of words issued from the Mountain, but when will Moses smash the tablets? :)

    Seriously. Is the UN a paper tiger?

  113. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    24 Jul, 2014 - 9:33 pm

    BINGO! Quartet Envoy to the Middle East Tony Blair has surfaced! In Vietnam….

    http://en.vietnamplus.vn/Home/Prime-Minister-receives-Former-British-PM-Tony-Blair/20147/53146.vnplus

    Advising is so lucrative. Tony is expected, at least by a Seychellois source*, to be in China from the 25th. Don’t talk about the oil rigs, Tony. Bill Clinton will also be there. China banned his wife’s book recently.

    *dated 16th. A later report on the 19th omits his name.

  114. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    24 Jul, 2014 - 9:34 pm

  115. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    24 Jul, 2014 - 9:35 pm

    Craig

    “But I believe that the departure of Scotland will be a massive kick to the English political system, that makes people realise change is possible. Those in England who want more than a choice between four neo-con parties I believe stand to gain from the vigorous shaking of the kaleidoscope that Scottish independence will give.”
    ___________________

    I had no idea that Alec Salmond was such a kind person.

    Although what you believe may (or may not) happen, you are surely not suggesting that this is one of the motivations for, or objectives of, Scottish independence?

    Come to think of it, you could also argue that if Scotland and the Scottish were such humane, reasonable and honest entities, they would do better to remain as part of the UK and thereby influence UK policies in the direction you would like?
    A little bit like the various pro-EU people who say that it is only from within the EU that the UK can influence the direction of EU policies?

  116. At least 15 killed by Israeli shelling of Gaza school; toll exceeds 760

    More than 140,000 Palestinians have fled 17 days of fighting between Israel and Gaza militants, many of them seeking shelter in buildings run by the U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA). Israeli forces are trying to stop militants from Hamas and their allies from firing rockets into its territory.

    “It’s clear that civilians are paying an unimaginable price caught between both sides,” said UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness. “We were attempting to arrange a window for evacuation for the civilians with the Israeli army that never came. The consequences were deeply tragic.”

  117. Unpleasant anti-Hamas propaganda included in tonight’s episode of The Honourable Woman. I have not seen any previous in the series.

    The script is full of leading words like terrorists…scuttling around in their cellars..
    we do not deal with Hamas….these people…. etc etc

    http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2014/jul/23/honourable-woman-great-show-dated-opening-credits

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04bwqzv
    Hugo Blick Writer/Producer/Director
    Abi Bach Producer

  118. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    24 Jul, 2014 - 9:41 pm

    Harry Bannerman

    “It’s rather like Poland in that regard, whose prime function is to ensure there is no unity between Russia and Europe.”
    _____________________

    An interesting thought, Harry.

    Would you say that this is just a modern function or did it also apply to pre-partition Poland? Or also to pre-WW2 Poland?

  119. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    24 Jul, 2014 - 9:44 pm

    Abi Bach (producer, or ‘investor) is shown as an Anglo/Israeli, Mary.

  120. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    24 Jul, 2014 - 9:45 pm

    Mr Scorgie

    “Uzbek, are you Special Branch or MI5 ?”
    ____________________

    I think he is neither; he is soleone in this blog who “speaks truth to impotence”

    You really don’t like dissenting voices, do you?

  121. Lets gauge the Scottish people on their attendance at Saturdays pro Palestine anti Israel demonstrations. I will be at the Mound in Edinburgh and hope to see thousands this time and not the 50 odd that attended the last time. It might just inconvenience the Saturday ritual shopthon.
    The majority of people in Scotland are just as msm brainwashed and self centred as the rest of the haves in this world. They will always go with the popular choice so not to be different or part of a minority opinion….unfortunately. And this pisses me right off!

  122. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    24 Jul, 2014 - 9:56 pm

    Mr Scorgie

    ““I thought to abstain meant not expressing an opinion either way rather than opposing.”

    You thought wrong Kempe.”
    ______________________

    No, I’m afraid Kempe’s correct and it is you who are wrong.

    It is rather pointless to quote the admirable Archbishop Desmond Tutu, whose moral stature is considerably greater than his understanding of what abstention means in the context of UN voting.

    *******************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  123. Sofia Could you tell your father to f off and not to ask such personal and invasive questions the answers to which are none of his bloody business. Also that I will be missing from here for a couple of weeks but like General McArthur ‘I shall return’ (Deo Volente) much to the trolls’ annoyance presumably.

    In the meantime I hope and pray that no more Palestinians will be murdered or wounded by these damnable Occupiers of their land.

    Sorry to bother you.

  124. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    24 Jul, 2014 - 10:00 pm

    “And note:

    …..military spokesman Lt. Col. Peter Lerner said the military had urged the U.N. and the Red Cross to evacuate the school for three days leading up to the incident.

    The U.N. said it was trying to do just that when the school was hit.”
    ___________________

    If all of the above is true – why did the UN takes three days to start evacuating the school?

  125. GENEVA CONVENTIONS

    Some more Key points

    ACTS THAT CAUSE UNNECESSARY SUFFERING

    It is especially forbidden to employ arms, projectiles or material
    calculated to cause unnecessary suffering.

    Use of Expanding Bullets

    Hollow Points

    Use of Non-detectable Fragments

    Glass or Plastic Munitions

    Use of Poison (Chemical)

    Nerve Agents, Blister Agents, Blood Agents

    Altering Weapons

    AMMUNITION

    Weapons may be illegal per se

    By improper use

    By agreement or prohibited by specific treaties

    Hollow point ammunition

    Fragmentation

    Chemical Weapons

    Altering Lawful Weapons

    Ben.

    Re firstlook.org

    Thanks. Will check it out. A bit tied uptonight.

  126. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    24 Jul, 2014 - 10:09 pm

    Mary

    “Sofia Could you tell your father to f off and not to ask such personal and invasive questions the answers to which are none of his bloody business.”
    ______________

    Yes, it is nasty when people comment about whether other people are married or not and whether they have children or not, isn’t it.

    Just thought I’d give you a taste of your own medicine, and you din’t like itn did you.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “‘I shall return’ (Deo Volente) much to the trolls’ annoyance presumably.”
    _____________________

    Why annoyance? It’ll be a pleasure and amusing to have you back.

    PS – how are we going to keep up-to-date with the news, with you away? Dp pmease reconsider! :)

    **********************

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  127. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    24 Jul, 2014 - 10:14 pm

    And, ‘flechettes’?

    http://news.genius.com/United-nations-human-rights-council-goldstone-report-excerpts-relating-to-white-phosphorous-annotated#note-2200256

    “Based on its investigation of incidents involving the use of certain weapons such as white phosphorous and flechette missiles, the Mission, while accepting that white phosphorous is not at this stage proscribed under international law, finds that the Israeli armed forces were systematically reckless in determining its use in built-up areas. Moreover, doctors who treated patients with white phosphorous wounds spoke about the severity and sometimes untreatable nature of the burns caused by the substance. The Mission believes that serious consideration
    should be given to banning the use of white phosphorous in built-up areas. As to flechettes, the Mission notes that they are an area weapon incapable of discriminating between objectives after detonation. They are, therefore, particularly unsuitable for use in urban settings where there is reason to believe civilians may be present.

    As described in detail in chapter IX, the Mission investigated the attacks against al-Quds hospital in Tal el-Hawa, one of the hospitals which were allegedly used for military purposes by Palestinian armed groups. This hospital was directly hit by white phosphorous shells and at least one high explosive shell on 15 January 2009. The Mission conducted extensive interviews with al-Quds hospital staff and others who were in the area at the time of the attack and concluded that it was unlikely that there was any armed presence in any of the hospital buildings at that time. The Mission also investigated the attacks against al-Wafa Hospital in eastern Gaza City. As in the case of al-Quds hospital, after hearing credible testimony from doctors at that hospital, the Mission excluded the possibility that there were combatants inside the hospital at the time of the attack. However, the Mission did not make any findings with respect to the possible presence of Palestinian combatants in the surroundings of the hospital.
    Following Operation Cast Lead, an Israeli military strike on the Gaza Strip, the United Nations sent in a fact finding team to assess the aftermath and investigate the conduct of both sides of the conflict.

    The report issued after the assessment determined the claims of Gazans to be verifiable, that the Israeli Defense Force had used white phosphorous on Gazan citizens. White phosphorous is a legal chemical munition.

    *AND THE CLINCHER….*

    The OBAMA administration stood with their allies in the Israeli government to BLOCK the report from any serious consideration, including the possibility of war crimes tribunals at The Hague.

  128. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    24 Jul, 2014 - 10:15 pm

    “A bit tied uptonight.”

    No deletions or over-active mods. It’ll be there when you have time. cheers.

  129. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    24 Jul, 2014 - 11:32 pm

    Republicans gnawing on their own nuts over cancelled flights to Israel.

    “There are still flights to Afghanistan and even the Ukraine, where rootin’ tootin’ Putin murdered 300 people. Israel is being singled out”.

    I hope so.

  130. Halibaba

    It is embarrassing to teach you simple facts of life concerning the saintly figure called Amos. Living saints usually bear no children as they have no idea what that fucking piece of anatomy between their legs is used for. La vita è bella particolarmente in culo!

  131. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    24 Jul, 2014 - 11:49 pm

  132. saintly figure called Amos. Living saints usually bear no children as they have no idea what that fucking piece of anatomy between their legs is used for.

    That kind of a mother always eats her offspring, before they can manage to run away from her, it is nothing unusual.

  133. Your own little Guido and Ina

    25 Jul, 2014 - 12:25 am

  134. Ben.

    Great link.

    Thanks.

    I loved…

    “…concrete facts are not necessary…”

    Almost an epitaph!

    When that’s the MO of a government how can it be heading for anything but trouble.

    I have a dear friend with a scared face from finding out, as a kid, what it was like to ride her bike with her eyes closed.

    Regarding the human dramas and dilemas that this kind of madness generates, and the power for doing people harm that those engaged in a police state find they have, it put me in mind of the brilliant film “The Lives of Others”.

    Back on topic. It’s easy to see the deep trauma visited on the Palestinians will blight countless lives, but equally the brutalisation of it’s own young men and women will surely boomerang back into Israeli society just as the brutalisation of young Americans drafted to kill in Vietnam, Iraq etc has done in the US.

  135. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    25 Jul, 2014 - 1:38 am

    ‘great link’.

    Intercept has been a little disappointing in it’s reticence to publish, but it is great for commentators who seek a venue to air their grievances.

    And that;s no bullshit, sofia.

    Riding a bike with no hands is what Palestinians do.

  136. Sofia: I understand the thrill your friend sought. There is an occasional temptation to close my eyes for a few moments. while riding my 1-litre superbike (a Honda Fireblade, Respol edition, if anyone’s really interested):

    http://www.motofoto.es/fotos/3904/big-honda-cbr-1000rr-fireblade-repsol-83063.jpg

    The best way to do this, is get a friend/wife/etc. to talk to you, while you cycle along a massive beach on an off-road cycle. Cover your eyes, cycle while blind for a mile or so – it’s indescribable. Running while doing so – the same.

    Doubtless, there’s a label for this condition ;)

  137. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    25 Jul, 2014 - 6:33 am

    “I have a dear friend with a scared face from finding out, as a kid, what it was like to ride her bike with her eyes closed.”
    _______________________

    Good to learn that you have at least one adult friend.

    And there I was, thinking you were some sort of female Dennis the Menace!

  138. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    25 Jul, 2014 - 6:37 am

    News for ornithologists and others.

    The first “fucking” of the year from FEDUP has been spotted!

    A little late, if course, but this is understandable given this bird’s unexplained absence from its usual CM habitat.

  139. Geneva Convention

    Some more key points

    PROTECTED PROPERTY

    Civilian Property

    Cultural Property
    Churches

    Universities, Colleges, Schools

    Historical Monuments

    Museums

    Buildings dedicated to Charities (such as Orphanages)

    Cultural Property Emblems

    Protected Medical Transports
    and Facilities

    Ambulances

    Hospital Ships

    Medical Aircraft

    MEDIVAC Helicopters

    Hospitals

    Buildings

    Mobile (Tents)

    I wonder when it started dawning on Hitler’s butchers that they were heading towards the courts.

    I look forward to the moment that penny drops the butchers of Gaza.

    Every missile they fire make brings that moment a little closer.

    Mary. 9 59pm

    Dad’s really not worth a nano-second of your, or anyone’s, attention.

    I know you feel it’s a bit of a cop-out, but I think you’ve earned a short Habbabreak.

    Let him display his art here and and show us what it’s like in the mind of a zionist lackey. Just be sure to wash your hands after viewing.

    I know I’ve not followed his advice, but Node had a point back along when he said there’s nothing the man hates more than being ignored.

    OT.

    Glen’s Fireblade .

  140. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    25 Jul, 2014 - 10:13 am

    DIME weapons ( a sort of ultra-fragmentation charge) are so new as to be under the international radar. Medical reports suggest that Gaza has been used as a testbed for these since 2006.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dense_Inert_Metal_Explosive

    Ironically, these are designed to limit collateral damage. Which suggests only that the Gazan civilians killed and injured by them have been intentionally targeted.

    http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/op-ed-israel-may-be-testing-weapons-in-gaza/article/391073

  141. I find your passion for the Palestinians admirable. What I can’t get over is the view that the Palestinian nation are entitled to a state but the Scottish nation are not.

    I support a one-state solution in Palestine where some who are currently ‘Israeli’ Jews would get citizenship on exactly the same basis as other people, but certain recent settlers among their number would be denied it. For those in the latter group who retain citizenship of other countries, I would favour expulsion; but in the case of others, some kind of deal might have to be done with other states, probably involving some concessions, because the idea is certainly not to create any more stateless refugees. (Putting an end to Israel will involve a reappearance of international consensus on what is morally right – this may sound corny but in the present horrendous conditions are we wrong to want this?)

    I am not sure where to draw the lines, but with regard to the ‘Israeli’ Jews I would strongly reject both extreme positions, namely a) expelling them all and b) not expelling any of them.

    Changing the education system will be crucial, as was also recognised to be the case in post-WW2 Germany. So will banning all activities intended to restore Zionist power.

    As for Scotland, I support the holding of the independence referendum and therefore surely I do recognise the right of the Scottish nation to have their own state? I also recognise their right not to.

    I agree that the BBC is biased towards the Union and that this comes out in its coverage of the Commonwealth Games.

    On the other hand, the SNP tells people that Scottish independence won’t mean too much of a frightening loss of what they’ve currently got, because they’ll keep having the BBC and the monarchy and whether or not they keep British citizenship will be up to the rUK government. I think that’s pathetic. What parallels are there? They should say that they want Scotland to pull out of Britain and that whilst there will probably be some cross-border institutions with the country that they share an island with, Scotland will have its own SBC; and that rUK will become a foreign country with which they will strive to have friendly and mutually beneficial relations.

    Instead, their policy is a muddle, with some of them referring e.g. to Jersey, which is not independent.

    And as for the Commonwealth Games, let’s not forget that the SNP threw an enormous wobbly saying they’d abstain (in their own referendum!) if the referendum were held in 2013 and not in 2014, 700 years after the freemasons’ favourite mediaeval battle, Bannockburn. That was a classic case of treating people as if they are complete morons. Moreover, Bannockburn was fought in June, not September. The only reason for holding the referendum in September was because the SNP thought they might benefit from the increase of sport-themed, lardarse-style TV ‘come on Scotland’ during the Commonwealth Games. Again, I think that’s an example of treating people like idiots, because I would rather the contest be fought on real issues, not on national pride.

    Also that your unproven assertion that a Scottish state would be Zionist outweighs the stone cold certainty that the UK state is Zionist.”

    Better the devil you don’t know? It is as if you arguing that after Scottish independence, anything will be possible! ‘Vote for Camelot’?

  142. Similarly on the currency, why can’t Alex Salmond say “We favour a currency union with rUK, but if that cannot be agreed then we will have our own currency”?

    The foot-stamping is such a turn-off. It may be argued that Scotland has a moral right to be in the EU, but it cannot be argued that it has a legal right to be. That is not the ‘Yes’ camp’s fault, of course, but it is a reality, and leaders should recognise realities rather than whipping up starry-eyed Camelot-fervour.

  143. Uzbek in the UK

    25 Jul, 2014 - 11:30 am

    @mary

    “The BBC report on the latest atrocity. The shelter was shelled by the Israeli navy apparently.

    Shelling ‘kills 15 in Gaza shelter’
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28468526

    Sky have just shown footage of the hospital receiving casualties including tiny babes. Scenes from hell.”

    And yet similar scenes but in another place of the world (guess where) are being largely ignored by most of humane people on this blog. What is it biased approach or simply hidden agenda? So let me get it right. Russian mercenaries can kill people but IDF cannot? Is it right?

  144. It never ceases to amaze me, when I read the comments on here, just how many folk are completely ignorant of the actual debate here in Scotland. This is clearly illustated by the, frankly offensive, comment above at 9.45 am “I think Scottish independence is a con and that the bedrock of Scottish nationalism is dimwitted chip-shouldered anti-English xenophobia”. Can you imagine the outcry in the London based media if one of the “cybernats” made a similar comment about British/ English nationalism? VOTE YES!

  145. Well I have lived in Scotland for many years, Iain, so there is no “inside Scotland” versus “outside Scotland” dividing us.

    I have described my take on what is going on, which incidentally coincides with Billy Connolly’s and many other people’s. You quote one of my sentences and suggest that it indicates “ignorance of the actual debate” on my part. I would be happy to discuss with you, but the fact is that you do not give any examples to support your assertion. I do not mean to be rude, but that is typical of people who have arrived at their positions irrationally.

    I think you should examine where you are coming from. You may not like what I say, but I am a participant in the “actual debate”.

    Addressing the very real xenophobia is not ignorant; nor is addressing the PR strategy of the Yessers, which is Camelotic and, where that doesn’t work, foot-stamping. (Examples given.)

  146. Uzbek in the UK
    25 Jul, 2014 – 11:30 am

    “And yet similar scenes but in another place of the world (guess where) are being largely ignored by most of humane people on this blog. What is it biased approach or simply hidden agenda? So let me get it right. Russian mercenaries can kill people but IDF cannot? Is it right?”

    —————————————-

    Uzbek,

    The discussion on this thread is about Israel/Palestine; not Ukraine!

  147. yes, 24 Jul, 9:45 am:

    “But if Alex Salmond and the SNP make a clear statement that an independent Scotland will not recognise the ethnic-supremacist ‘state of Israel’, and that it will not allow the Zionist organisation (for really there is only one) to operate in Scotland, I will reconsider how I cast my vote in September.”

    I think you should look further ahead. With independence, Scotland will free itself of the outdated Westminster voting system which effectively limits power to the establishment. It’s practically impossible for even one non-conformist MP to be elected under the Westminster “winner takes all” voting system.

    The independence referendum is about freedom to choose policy, not policy itself. Secure the freedom, because then you can start voting effectively on the basis of policies.

    When I was visiting Scotland last year, many I spoke to were in favour of independence, but were reluctant to vote that way because they dislike the SNP and Salmond. But independence would initiate the decline (or force the transformation) of the SNP by removing its reason for existence; having achieved autonomy, the voters and party members will move on to the actual issues that they couldn’t effectively address under Westminster.

  148. Yes, 25 Jul, 10:21 am:

    “It may be argued that Scotland has a moral right to be in the EU, but it cannot be argued that it has a legal right to be.”

    I think it’s the other way around. Scotland is already in the EU by being part of the UK, and as such it holds responsibilities and treaty commitments towards the EU. Dismantling those commitments would be a bigger job than transferring them to a newly independent Scotland.

  149. Sorry, I didn’t make this clear:

    “… it cannot be argued that it [Scotland] has a legal right to be [in the EU]”

    It is unarguably the case that Scotland already has legal responsibilities within the EU which would have to be renegotiated before Scotland could leave.

  150. The terrible slaughter through terrorist bombings in English cities in the 70s and 80s should have reinforced into UK consciousness the utter inhumanity of such action.

    Yet the UK have no hesitation in condoning or indeed carrying out such action when it is other innocent civilians who are being slaughtered.
    T
    Iraq, Serbia, Gaza, Afghanistan…their civilians are all fair game

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