Counter-Revolution

by craig on July 4, 2013 8:49 am in Uncategorized

What we are seeing in Egypt is counter-revolution pure and simple, military hardliners who are going to be friendly with Israel and the US, and are committing gross human rights abuse.

Western backed counter-revolution is going to be sweeping back across the Middle East; do not be distracted by the words of the West, watch the deeds.  It will of course be in the name of secularism.  There is an important correlation between what is happening in Turkey and Egypt.  I made myself unpopular when I pointed out what the media did not tell you, that behind the tiny minority of doe-eyed greens in the vanguard of the Istanbul movement, stood the massed phalanxes of kemalist nationalism, a very ugly beast.  “Secularism” was the cry there too.

 

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712 Comments

  1. Abu Qatada is more dangerous than any of the more flamboyant mullahs. Just as we do not allow White Supremacists from the USA to alight upon these shores, so too ought we to bar other dangerous supremacist leaders. Personally, I’ll be glad to see the back of him. I do not think anyone should be tortured. If that’s a concern, which it is, then as well as justifiably criticisng the UK Government (which of course is in cahoots with the Islamists in Syria/Libya, etc. and which uses the Qatada case as it’s PR vehicle in the opposite direction) for its rank hypocrisy, maybe we should be looking also at Jordan and why the regime there (and why all regimes in those countries) do what they do to their own people.

  2. Habbabkuk, I thought you had some intelligence. If you read the article you will see that Abu Qatada, a family man, born in Bethlehem, and without any apparent criminal record in this country is a is a middle-eastern Muslim that the Home Secretary and David Cameron have, together with former prime ministers, tried to split up from his family. On the other hand Sean Patrick Breach a “white shit” is a serial white South African wife-beater who has an alleged criminal record in South Africa as well as here. One is a prime target for deportation – the other has not even been considered for deportation and nothing of his crimes (Kempe take note) appear in the mainstream media. I am posting the link again so that you can read it and make your own judgement.

    http://newsjunkiepost.com/2013/05/03/is-hatred-of-islam-the-uk-home-secretarys-religion/

  3. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 6:56 pm

    Sub-contractors working on the gas supply in Birdcage Walk have cut through a water main which, apart from causing a flood, has deprived Downing Street, parts of Whitehall, the House of Lords and Wellington Barracks of their water supply. What a shame. Agent Cameron and the others are said to be not best pleased. That will teach them a lesson about privatising public services.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-23248549

    Tomorrow the £3bn privatisation of the Royal Mail kicks off. There will be a donation of shares (a bribe) to the staff. It will be the end of universal delivery to all parts of the UK for the same price and we will see hundreds of delivery vans running around all working for different companies.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/royal-mail/10167373/Royal-Mail-WILL-be-sold-off-in-biggest-state-privatisation-for-two-decades.html

  4. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 7:02 pm

    Victoria Britain’s opinion of Abu Qatada is different to the general view.

    I know Abu Qatada – he’s no terrorist
    Security services and politicians turned this man into an Islamic counter-terrorism myth. If only they’d talked to him instead

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/07/abu-qatada-no-terrorist

    I haven’t looked at the 1140 comments but can guess at some of the content.

  5. Abu Qatada allegedly is a very clever ideologue and what’s worse, a clever recruiter of youth who, it is reported, speaks one way in public, in English (allegedly to fool people) and another, when allegedly indocrinating gullible youths with his poisonous doctrine. He allegedly has links with training camps abroad. He also is an expert in theology – which the other, more theatrical, mullahs of hate were not. As I said, there must be no compromising of human rights, no matter how heinous the individual concerned. But there are individuals far more deserving of your good conscience, John, than Abu Qatada. It is people like him – his pals, actually – who are commiting much of the killing in Syria. It is a pity the issue has become a political football of the Far Right in this country. It’s bigger than that.

  6. “If only they’d talked to him instead…” Flaming June.

    Yeah, he’ll have told Ms Brittain exactly what she wanted to hear. As I said, he’s very clever. He knows how to milk liberals.

  7. “… his moral standards could have been useful in engaging Muslim youth and healing the wounds in our divided society.” [from the Brittain article]

    No, no, no! This man is a Far Right supremacist.

    “The Guardian Newspaper reported that in 1995 Abu Qatada issued a fatwa justifying the killing of Muslims who renounce their faith, and of their families.” [from Wikipedia]

    That’s just one example. This is the kind of man he is. So yes, let’s be absolute in our stand against evidence-from-torture, etc., but let’s not kid ourselves that this is a good man. In fact, our knowledge that he is not a good man and our steadfastness against torture actually strengthens our position.

  8. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 7:24 pm

    Murdoch won’t have Wendi Deng to save him next time.

    Rupert Murdoch Recalled By Commons Committee
    The media mogul is asked to appear before MPs after a tape recording emerged of a meeting with journalists at his newspapers.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1113515/rupert-murdoch-recalled-by-commons-committee

  9. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 7:41 pm

    @ Suhayl

    Thank you for those interesting posts on Abu Qatada. They are all the more valuable as the Eminences will not be able to shout “fascist” or “troll” or “hasbara agent” at YOU (this will of course deprive them of seven-eights of their ‘argument’)

    I would actually have used a couple of your points for my “debate” with John Goss – once he would have started to debate by setting out his reasons for maintaining that Abu Qatada should NOT have been deported (if you read his latest, you’ll have seen that he hasn’t actually done so, preferring instead to introduce Sean Patrick Breach into the discussion).

  10. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 7:46 pm

    From Flaming June re Abu Qatada:

    “If only they’d talked to him instead”
    _________

    Well, according to some of your fellow-Eminences, they did – because they suggest that he was an MI6 asset.

    No, seriously, this is a desperate argument. Oh, if only we’d have talked to x, y, z (fill in the names of some pretty unpleasant figures here yourselves), they wouldn’t have been so horrible!

  11. And while I’m at it, calling another Fundo Preacher, Qaradawi, “progressive” is the height of naivete (to be kind to Ken Livingstone et al). Qaradawi and his ilk are NOT progressive. He’s Muslim Brotherhood – and we just saw what they were trying to do to Egyptians and we see what their pals are doing right now in Libya and Syria (with the help of MI6, the CIA, the Saudis/UAE and the French). That is what happens when these people get power. They are not, could never be, should never be, friends of the Left. We saw what their theocratic Shia equivalents in Iran did to the Left when they hijacked the Revolution of 1979 – mass murder. Bani Sadr had to flee Iran disguised as a woman, on the back of a donkey.

    It is necessary to be against imperialism and in this regard, it is necessary clearly to see that one of the key tools of imperialism in the ‘Middle East’ is religious fundamentalism.

  12. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 7:58 pm

    @ John Goss :

    “Habbabkuk, I thought you had some intelligence. If you read the article you will see that Abu Qatada, a family man, born in Bethlehem, and without any apparent criminal record in this country is a is a middle-eastern Muslim that the Home Secretary and David Cameron have, together with former prime ministers, tried to split up from his family. On the other hand Sean Patrick Breach a “white shit” is a serial white South African wife-beater who has an alleged criminal record in South Africa as well as here. One is a prime target for deportation – the other has not even been considered for deportation and nothing of his crimes (Kempe take note) appear in the mainstream media.”
    ___________

    I’m assuming that you read my post before posting the above; you’ll recall that I suggested that you start off the debate by saying why you maintain that Abu Qatada should NOT have been deported.

    Does your post (reproduced above) constitute that statement of your reasons?

    If so, I note that your reasons for opposing the deportation of Abu Qatada appear to be :

    – that he is a family man born in Bethlehem
    – that he has no apparent criminal record in the UK
    – that various UK politicians have tried to split him from his family
    – that he is in complete contrast to Sean Patrick Breach, who has however not been deported.

    So before we go any further, please confirm that you have given me the reasons why you think that Abu Qatada should not have been deported and that those reasons are the ones eproduced above.

    Thank you.

  13. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 8:06 pm

    [Mod/Jon: excessive focussing on one particular poster, will continue to remove these]

  14. First of all Habbabkuk, it was you who was “happy to discuss” why Abu Qatada should, or should not, have been deported to the torturous state of Jordan. Theresa May, and other home secretaries from the time of Blair and Bush’s ‘war on Islam’ as I prefer to call it, has imprisoned people, including Abu Qatada, people like Babar Ahmad and Syed Talha Ahsan for collectively more than 14 years without charge or trial. That is not what we used to do in this country. That is why I raised several FOI requests suggesting that the FCO might be illegally bigoted towards people of Muslim faith.

    Suhayl you might be right, and I respect your opinion, but the Guardian timeline is not sourced. There are great writers on the Guardian, even more so since Glenn Greenwald joined. But those of us who have followed it over the years knows that the spooks have an input too. The bit about the Germans finding “recordings of some of his radical sermons in a home used by some of the September 11 attackers” in April 2002 is almost certainly disinformation of the nature of the videotapes of Osama Bin Laden found in caves.

  15. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 8:56 pm

    It’s so good to have one’s comments copied out and repeated. Free double exposure.

  16. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 9:29 pm

    “It’s so good to have one’s comments copied out and repeated. Free double exposure.”
    ______________

    Absolutely, and always happy to be of service to a valuable and valued contributor.

    There! I’ve done it again!

  17. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 9:39 pm

    Man’s inhumanity to man.

    In photos: Palestinian workers’ everyday nightmare at Israeli checkpoints
    Daniel Tepper

    Qalqiliya 9 July 2013

    http://electronicintifada.net/content/photos-palestinian-workers-everyday-nightmare-israeli-checkpoints/12597

  18. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 9:41 pm

    @ John Goss :

    “First of all Habbabkuk, it was you who was “happy to discuss” why Abu Qatada should, or should not, have been deported to the torturous state of Jordan. Theresa May, and other home secretaries from the time of Blair and Bush’s ‘war on Islam’ as I prefer to call it, has imprisoned people, including Abu Qatada, people like Babar Ahmad and Syed Talha Ahsan for collectively more than 14 years without charge or trial. That is not what we used to do in this country. That is why I raised several FOI requests suggesting that the FCO might be illegally bigoted towards people of Muslim faith.”
    ______________

    Let’s be clear : I originally asked whether there was anyone on this blog who thought that Abu Qatada should NOT be deported, and added that I should be happy to discuss.

    Yo indicated that you were such a person but, apart from so indicating, you have not given me your reasons. Once I have them, I shall be able to answer them.

    You did post some stuff but have not yet responded to my request to tell me whether that stuff constitutes your reasons for opposing Abu Qatada’s deportation and whether I have captured what you said accurately.

    You have now posted yet more stuff, bringing in another couple of people in addition to the South African murderer you mentioned previously and recalling for the third time that you sent off a Freedom of Information request. But still no exposition of the reasons for which you are opposed to the deportation of Abu Qatada.

    I’m seriously beginning to doubt your wish to discuss this question. If you are unwilling – or perhaps unable – to set out the reasons for your opinion, please just say so and we can drop the whole thing.

  19. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 9:47 pm

    @ John Goss

    And I have of course not failed to notice that you are doing your best to rubbish Suhayl’s sources, Suhayl having cast some doubt on the angelic and anti-terrorist disposition of the now departed Mr Qatada.

    I think they must have taught you that trick at Party school along with the dialectical materialism, no?

  20. Fred, I’m in mod-mode at the moment, so I won’t join in. But, in the interests of stimulating debate: either side of the independence campaign may have one or two unpleasant individuals willing to make death threats. However, neither side is going to publicly support that sort of thing, and 99% of unionists and 99% of independence supporters will not use this tactic.

    With that in mind, it might be best not to rest your argument on “nationalists are violent” – in the main, this is a peaceful campaign, both ways. Can we focus instead on the political and economic effects (good or bad) of separation?

  21. Thanks, John. Yes, that was just one example, as I said. Abu Qatada has been roundly criticised, his speeches and works negatively critiqued, by Islamic religious scholars (not just those in the UK, not just those of the obvious bodies) across the (sane) board whom he, in turn, has disparaged, and many others, not just by the spooks or elements of the Left or Right or whatever.

    He also allegedly had systemic links with the Algerian GIS, an organisation that massacred civilians in the thousands (even other Islamist who were not sufficiently psychopathic) as, of course, did the Alegrian state during the civil war there of the 1990s. He’s been a key (practising and theoretician) Rightwing religious supremacist for many years.

    As I said earlier, that is not to say that he automatically forfeits all rights or that we descend to the same level by using evidence gained through torture, imprisonment wihtout charge, etc. Everyone, even the biggest murdering bastard, is entitled to due process. I wish that for example, General Pinochet had been exposed to due process as had been demanded by the Spanish judge.

  22. And I wish Anthony Blair would be exposed to due process.

  23. Habbabkuk, this article is by Moazzam Begg. If your recall Moazzam Begg was one of the 779 men ever held in Guantanamo Bay, of which 15 were children. Of that huge total of Muslims (because I know of none practising other religions) only 13 have ever been charged with a crime, and 9 men have died there. Only 1 to my knowledge has been convicted. These figures speak for themselves. They are the joint intelligence of European countries, including the UK who condemn Muslims without them having committed a crime. Anybody who thinks differently needs to stop watching MSM. How good the intelligence is from intercepting people’s communications speaks for itself. But here is Moazzam Begg’s article. You worked out roughly what my arguments were as to why Abu Qatada should not have had to go to Jordan.

    http://www.cageprisoners.com/our-work/opinion-editorial/item/4002-from-bethlehem-to-belmarsh-abu-qatada%E2%80%99s-ordeal-in-britain

  24. Bani Sadr had to flee Iran disguised as a woman, on the back of a donkey.

    He did not run away because he was a lefty. Bani Sadr was “planted” in among the leadership entourage from the word go, by the CIA. His handler was one Guy Rutherford purporting to represent Carver and Associates of Pennsylvania, US. However Guy Rutherford also was known as William Foster, and in fact was Vernon Cassin of the CIA. Cassin had been operating since mid 1950s in the mid east, and he was posted as the CIA Station Chief in Damascus, later being assigned as the Station Chief in Amman, Jordan. Cassin also had a close working relationship with Thomas Ahern the Station Chief in US Embassy in Tehran.

    However, as ever any data concerning Iran does not necessarily need to be grounded in facts, so long as it conforms to the jaundiced view so prevalent with regards to all matters concerning Iran; portraying Iran in the most negative light, it should suffice. Fact that Bani Sadar was the fifth columnist sabotaging the Iranians war efforts, directed at countering the Saddams attacks, and defending Iran during the imposed war on Iran by Saddam. Hence his ignominious departure from Iran attired in tribal women’s outfit.

  25. Well, who knows? Bani Sadr, of course denies that he was a CIA asset, saying only that they attempted to recruit him but that he rejected their overtures. Whatever, many thousands of leftists and others were murdered by the theocratic regimes in the early 1980s. My point here being that people on the Left should never, ever ally themselves with religious extermists because when they do, they usually end up dead.

    But if you agree with Abu Qatada’s ‘preaching’ and alleged actions, then what can one say?

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NCwOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA180&lpg=PA180&dq=Bani+Sadr,+CIA&source=bl&ots=56YKXwCXv9&sig=r0THqqDRg5nqh1z_0l5SPqMShgg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-oHcUafcKYi0hAf9mYCYAw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAjgK

  26. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 10:54 pm

    @ John Goss:

    On second thoughts, I shall take your last two posts as indicating the ‘reasons’ for which you are opposed to the deportation of Mr Qatada and go through them point by point. When reading, please keep in mlind what Suhayl has posted.
    Perhaps that will encourage you to engage in the discussion you have indicated you want.

    Firstly, let me point out two facts :

    1/. There is nothing in international law granting aliens the unconditional right of entry into the territory of a state or, if the alien is already in the territory of that state, the unconditional right to remain.

    2/. UK Home Secretaries have absolute discretion in matters of right of entry and deportation, subject only to the provisions of relevant international law (notably the ECHR and EU legislation).

    Now to your posts, taking the latest one first.

    a) “..deported to the torturous (sic) state of Jordan.”

    The basis of Mr Qatada’s suit at the ECtHR was that evidence at the retrial he would face in Jordan might have been obtained by torture and that his trial would therefore be contrary to the ECHR’s provisions on the right to a fair trial. This objection has now been met by the recently-negotiated Agreement between the UK and Jordan that any such evidence would not be used at his trial. It therefore falls.
    ________

    b) “..has imprisoned people, including Abu Qatada, people like Babar Ahmad and Syed Talha Ahsan for collectively more than 14 years without charge or trial.”

    Irrelevant for the purpose of this discussion on two counts : (1) we are discussing the case of Mr Qatada and not Messrs Ahmad and Ahsan; (2) we are discussing the deportation and not what preceded it.
    ________

    c) “That is not what we used to do in this country.”

    This is not accurate : deportation powers have been used by successive Home Secretaries as far back as I can remember. Even if they had not been, this cannot be a reason as we are discussing a specific case of deportation now. If your reference is to 14 years of imprisonment, please see above under point b)

    d) “That is why I raised several FOI requests suggesting that the FCO might be illegally bigoted towards people of Muslim faith”

    The fact that you have submitted a FOI request is not a reason why Mr Qatada should not have been deported. And, by the way, if it were, you should have addressed it to the Home Department and not the FCO
    _________

    Now on to your first post.

    e) “Abu Qatada, a family man, born in Bethlehem”

    Irrelevant for the purpose of arguing that he should not be deported (by the way, he is a Jordanian citizen – and is a fugitive from Jordanian justice, wanted for retrial in Jordan.

    f) “…Home Secretary and David Cameron have, together with former prime ministers, tried to split up from his family.”

    Untrue (and therefore invalid as a reason). Mr Qatada’s suit at the ECHR, interestingly enough, was based on the claimed violation of his right to a fair trial and not to the right to have a family (or ‘enjoy a family life”). The UK govt wants hum out because he is deemed to be a threat to the security of the UK and that his poresence is not conducive to the public good. In adddition to which, he is wanted for retrial in a friendly state.
    _______

    g) “On the other hand Sean Patrick Breach a “white shit” is a serial white South African wife-beater who has an alleged criminal record in South Africa as well as here. One is a prime target for deportation – the other has not even been considered for deportation and nothing of his crimes (Kempe take note) appear in the mainstream media.”

    All irrelevant to the question of whether Mr Qatada should have been deported or not. I think you might agree that each case should be dealt with on its own merits and the absence of action in one case should not bear on another?

    ************

    Now, having re-read the above, I am forced to one of two conclusions:

    1/. Either you have set out your reasons for opposing the deportation of Mr Qatada in those two posts of yours, in which case I think that I’ve shown that those ‘reasons’ are either irrelevant or erroneous

    2/ Or your two posts have just been you sounding off and you have not so far seen fit to put the reasons for your opinion into the arena of discussion. If this is the case, I now again invite you to do so.

  27. “However, as ever any data concerning Iran does not necessarily need to be grounded in facts, so long as it conforms to the jaundiced view so prevalent with regards to all matters concerning Iran; portraying Iran in the most negative light, it should suffice.” Fedup.

    Not by me. No evidence of that whatsoever.

  28. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 11:00 pm

    @ Suhayl

    I expected better from you. He HAS been subject to due process, for Christ’s sake – why do you think it took years to get rid of him?

  29. Habbabkuk, I was not suggesting that Abu Qatada hadn’t been subjected to due process. I was reinforcing the importance of due process in all cases, and also of not obtaining ‘evidence’ via torture, the latter of which I think had been an issue in this case.

    Talha Ahsan, on the other hand, for example, in my view, has not had the benefit of proper due process. There may be the impression of due process in the Ahsan case, but that is not enough.

  30. “My point here being that people on the Left should never, ever ally themselves with religious extermists because when they do, they usually end up dead.” Me.

    Also of course because Right-wing religious supremacism is completely antithetical to everything the Left is supposed to satnd for. In majority-Muslim countries, for example, people on the Left are totally opposed to the religious extremists. No left-wing leader would ever dream of celebrating Al Qaradawi as “progressive” like Ken Livingstone did. And the SWP at times also at times behaves in an apologetic manner. We must get away from this ‘Third Worldism’.

  31. “I think that I’ve shown that those ‘reasons’ are either irrelevant or erroneous”

    Absolutely not. This mention of ‘irrelevant’ when all the rendered British Muslims in Guantanamo were innocent of any crime is nonsense. Did you read Moazzam Begg’s article.

    http://www.cageprisoners.com/our-work/opinion-editorial/item/4002-from-bethlehem-to-belmarsh-abu-qatada%E2%80%99s-ordeal-in-britain

    By the way, what do you understand by torturous? It is associated with the word torture. Look at the synonyms for meaning “a” and argue again.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torturous

    I give you facts. You give me irrelevancies.

  32. Habbabkuk, tomorrow I will give you an early-morning call by which time you might have had time to reflect on your comments. Read them through again and ask yourself why others contributing to the blog do not want to engage with you. Life is good, but time is precious.

  33. I entirely agree, John, that terrible injustices have been committed, and continue to be perpetuated by the USA and its allies, esp. the UK.

    Talha Ahsan has spent many years in gaol without charge or trial while he fought against extradition and right now, is in Florence ‘Supermax’, USA in solitary confinment with no charges laid yet and his lawyers unable to see the ‘evidence’ against him. I mean, this is not due process! And many more. ‘Rendition’, black sites, this whole panoply of tossing out Habeas Corpus, it disgusts me and is a betrayal of everything countless millions have fought and died for over the ages.

  34. Bani Sadr, of course denies that he was a CIA asset

    Is it not naive to expect a Company man to own up, and fess up to his misdeeds?

    many thousands of leftists and others were murdered by the theocratic regimes in the early 1980s

    The leftists inferred to were in fact the MKO (a communist group with leadership aspirations) that was in cahoots with anyone who opposed the leadership structures post the revolution. MKO also helped Saddam to attack Iran, as well as helping Saddam to suppress the Kurds in Iraq, and now are no longer on the list of terrorist organisations of the US (good terrorists) and are helping the US now.

    Furthermore, it should be noted that MKO arranged for the bombing of the Prime minister’s office by one of its members who was in fact in the post of Secretary of Supreme National Security Council. During this bombing many scores of the top echelon of the leadership were assassinated. That is in addition to the constant machinations of the CIA to attack the residence of Ayatollah with mortars.

    In the book referred to Dilip Hiro fails to mention that the information about Bani Sadr and CIA were gleaned from decoding the material found in the US embassy in Tehran. Bani Sadr can deny all he wants, but the decoded data points to his treason. Hence to find the treasonous scum bag being paraded as a hero who fought the big bad Muslims is only reinforcing the caricaturists view that seemingly these days are passed as “reasoned discourse”.

    However, then to make the leap from one traitor and to latch onto another ne’er do well as Ab Qatada who has committed no crimes, as reflected in the absence of any trial, and conviction of the said ex “Most Wanted Man” in UK . That is despite the arbitrary arrest, and detention of Abu Qatada in lines with interment of the Northern Irish who were suspected of IRA membership. This can only be reflective of political persecution of those the government finds undesirable. However this is not the subject of any debate.

    Ab Qatada may preach the same hate that many Rabbis preach, and the likes of Pamela Geller et al are so vociferously engaged in inciting hatred against . To single out only this “hate preacher” who has been out of circulation for the last twelve years, spending his time either in full detention or partial detention and house arrest and finally rendering him to Jordan with assurances that he will not be tortured smack of hypocrisy.

    Then to find any kind of objection to internment practices are misconstrued as being in agreement with the “hate” that he preached is indeed a new low.

  35. No, I was not talking about the MKO, FedUp.

    Do you agree with Abu Qatada’s views and alleged actions, Fed Up? Best to be open about it, if you do.

  36. You see demonstrated here as in most places today, it is either Right-wing imperialism or Right-wing religious supremacism, or apologetics for one or other of these positions, and nothing else is permissible.

  37. BrianFujisan

    9 Jul, 2013 - 11:40 pm

    A heart tugging wee story…Imagine we had to go through this every time we want to go to the seaside… or Ocean

    Alicia Keys Versus Palestinian Youth to the Sea

    “They headed out on Thursday, July 4th around 6:45am. I was waiting to receive them in Haifa. I got a call around7:20am stating that they were stuck at an Israeli checkpoint (permits in hand) and the soldiers were “checking the permits”. At 9:15am I call the driver and he tells me that the soldiers were refusing to let them pass and told them to go and try another checkpoint. At 9:50am they were turned away from a second checkpoint. At this point I am devastated. Not only do they have permission from Israel to come into the ’48 territories, but it’s 90 degrees outside and they had been up since 6:00am and on a coach since 6:30am. At 10:15am I hear that they have been turned away from yet another checkpoint. I called the center here in Haifa to see if they could help. By the time they got in touch with the offices that issue the permits, the children had been turned away at a fourth checkpoint. You can imagine the disappointment, many of them had lost hope. We kept pushing and the permit office finally gave us a fifth checkpoint to send them to, which they guaranteed they would pass them through with no problems. Its was 11:30am and the kids were made to get off the coach, were physically searched and had to walk 20 minutes to meet the coach on the other side of the checkpoint. As they boarded the coach again I could hear their joy through the phone as I spoke to the driver.

    “They took hundreds of pictures of each other and were telling me that it was going to be their “profile picture on Facebook”. They asked me again “Are we going to the beach now?” and I just smiled, boarded them on the coach and headed down towards the sea. Now, the only problem we had was that Israel did not permit us to allow them to swim. They state “Non Israeli Citizens” are not allowed to swim at the beaches…of course, not meaning tourists but meaning Palestinians. The organization we were working with was worried and felt that because there were more kids than we expected that we shouldn’t let them swim for safety reasons. We took them to an area where its really for walking, somewhat of a promenade where there are huge rocks between the walkway and the sea. As soon as they stepped off that bus many of them ran and jumped straight over the rocks into the sea. I must admit, I really didn’t mind. Of course I didn’t want them to hurt themselves but I can swim and it’s not deep there, so I just let them do it. Who knows when they will be allowed out to visit the sea again?! I snapped a picture of 15 year old Khalil who had jumped in with his sneakers and jeans. He was collecting water and sand. His smile….the waves crashing on him and his laughter….made me really think about all the things we take for granted

    http://www.existenceisresistance.org/archives/2818

  38. @Jon

    Independence might turn out all right, could very easily turn pear shaped.

    Nothing is known. Even if people vote for independence they will not wake up next morning`to an independent Scotland. That’s when the horse trading starts and it would probably take years. Salmond might be telling people that the assets will be shared geographically and the liabilities per capita but there is little likelihood that will be what actually happens. He won’t be in any position to dictate terms.

    It’s one big gamble, why would anyone using common sense want to take the risk?

  39. No, I was not talking about the MKO, FedUp.

    These were the lefties that were rounded up post the revolution, along with Todeh party (another communist group). Fact is left have always been prone to manipulation of the right, as the history of their successive failures across the globe bear witness.

    You see demonstrated here as in most places today, it is either Right-wing imperialism or Right-wing religious supremacism, or apologetics for one or other of these positions, and nothing else is permissible.

    The history of Bani Sadr, and portraying him as the victim of the religious zealots, and their right wing imperatives; only reinforces the caricature image of Iran, and upon getting pulled up on it. Then there follows the feet stamping.

  40. @John Goss.11 28pm

    Re Habba,

    “…ask yourself why others contributing to the blog do not want to engage with you. Life is good, but time is precious.”

    I’ve been sucked in so many times myself and I’ve been watching your attempt today with some sympathy. It’s like trying to swim in treacle.

    I swing between wanting to confront it and trying to ignore it. I’m clearly not alone. Sometimes it draws out plenty of facets worth looking at, but it’s hard work and as you say “time is precious.”

    Sophie the sock-puppet was about the nearest I got to an appropriate response. An angry kid can deal with it in a a way that just doesn’t sit right with an adult. Pity about the copy and paste cock-up.

    I like Habba’s complaint that Komodo was treating him as a dog treats a lamp-post. A good idea I think. Quick and effective.

    Here’s Baba Maal – Mariama (Thank You)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjMqLSCOBIo

    Goodnight.

  41. I’ve joined this conversation re deportation of Abu Qatada belatedly but I can say it is a convoluted mess (the conversation). Many issues mangled into a single question – should Qatada be deported?

    If someone were to separate and enumerate the salient issues, you might all be able to discuss them in a more orderly fashion. To this end, let me offer to start a list.

    1. AQ entered, applied for and was granted asylum in the UK. Should the govt be free to refuse asylum seekers on the basis of character checks despite credible risks of persecution? 

    2. Should the govt be free to reverse an earlier grant of asylum based on subsequent security and criminality risk assessments? 

    3. Where should the govt stand on granting asylum to applicants who would be otherwise ineligible for entry due to actual criminality or credible risks of criminality? 

    4. How credible should claims of possible persecution or torture be to prevent a deportation? 

    5. How is the govt to enforce guarantees of fair treatment of deportees in destination countries?

    6. AQ’s entry into the UK was technically lawful, how does this relate to the issue of refusal of entry to controversial figures such as ‘White Supremacists’ from the US? Many controversial figures are denied entry but not in relation to applications for asylum. The UK is required by law to give fair consideration to applications for asylum applications, not visitor visas.

    7. Should AQ be free to conduct himself in *any* manner that is strictly lawful while residing as a refugee? 

    8. Should credible but unproven allegations of criminality or seriously improper conduct NOT factor into his eligibility for indefinite asylum? 

    9. How should the UK regard the use of their country as a safe haven for political activists? Should there be any limits?

  42. Well, there were hundreds of thousands of people in the Tudeh Party. Many were executed by the mullahs. And many other Leftists and liberals (not just the Shah’s Right-wing monarchist people) were executed too.

    Fedup, I agree with you about the demonisation of Iran. But I’m not sure why exactly you are seeking to argue that Far Right religious supremacism is not antithetical to Leftist political views/activity. I think that the history of the last 3+ decades demonstrates that it is antithetical.

    Now, to repeat my very simple question: Do you agree with Abu Qatada’s views and alleged actions?

  43. Good morning Habbabkuk. Join the discussion if you’re there. It is moving along quite nicely.

    Kibo Noh, is that an admission that you are Sophie. If so some of those comments of yours were classic and so entertaining. Thanks.

    Suhayl, Talha’s case is particularly disturbing. I have read his poetry, and prose. As writers ourselves we should stand side by side with imprisoned writers, especially those whose liberty has been taken away without just cause. It is why I set up the Facebook page which I urge all writers and other artists to join.

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/371661099578187/?fref=ts

  44. Correction: Well, wrt Tudeh Party, maybe thousands, not hundreds of thousands…

  45. John, I do (stand side by side) with unjustly imprisoned writers and have written, and spoken, on Talha’s case and appeared side-by-side with his brother, Hamja, who has campaigned tirelessly.

  46. Flaming June

    10 Jul, 2013 - 7:43 am

    More cruelty and inhumanity. No evidence of the words of Jesus.

    ‘And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
    And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.’

    The Palestinians who live below the new fortresses on the hills have experienced this disgusting treatment by Israeli settlers for years and years.

    ‘Villagers in Wadi Fukin near Bethlehem were attacked by Israeli settlers from a nearby settlement, when they intentionally poured thousands of tons of sewage into the only natural water spring and the land.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FZ4COu5rRBI#at=109

  47. Flaming June

    10 Jul, 2013 - 8:00 am

    Omar Mahmoud Othman (Abu Qatada al-Filistini) was born in Bethlehem in 1960. What were his childhood experiences? It is difficult to discover from the internet. Nearly all entries about him are hostile. As a young child he would have experienced chaos and upheaval and seen death and injury as Israel’s Six Day War in 1967 was played around him and his people. Then Israel took the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria.

    I can remember the media coverage here of General Dayan as the heroic victor.

    Some discoveries are to be made when listening to this.

    ‘As Abu Qatada leaves Britain, we talk to one of his childhood friends – plus the Jordanian former justice minister on what happens next.’ http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b036kvb6/Double_Take_07_07_2013/

    4mins 50 secs in for 12 mins

  48. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    10 Jul, 2013 - 8:13 am

    @ John Goss

    I’ll be travelling over the next few days. This should give you time to present your arguments as to why Mr Qatada should not have been deported. Please keep them to the specific case of Mr Qatada and do not bring other cases into the discussion.

    Over and out for the moment.

  49. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    10 Jul, 2013 - 8:22 am

    @ Jemand (in haste, I’m afraid) :

    “9. How should the UK regard the use of their country as a safe haven for political activists? Should there be any limits?”
    _________

    The European Convention on Human Rights specifically allows States Party to impose restrictions on the political activities of aliens in their territory.

    Keep up the good work.

    You’ll have noticed that the discussion with Goss is having difficulty in getting off the ground because he will simply not put forward reasons for which Mr Qatada should not have been deported, preferring instead to talk about anti-Muslim agendas and dragging other individuals into the so-called discussion.

    This underlines something I noticed quite early on about most (but not all) of the regulars’ contributions to this blog, viz : they do not – or cannot – discuss. They will either evade, ignore or, when cornered, become abusive.

    Just pointing this out, although most of the 99% will have already noticed for themselves :)

  50. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    10 Jul, 2013 - 8:33 am

    @ Suhayl

    “Talha Ahsan, on the other hand, for example, in my view, has not had the benefit of proper due process.”
    ___________

    I do not know this case and you may well be right. But this is irrelevant to the question of whether Mr Qatada should or should not have been deported, is it not?

    One cannot say that Mr Qatada should not have been deported because someone else should not have been or was denied due process. It is simply meaningless…and evasive.

  51. Flaming June, I notice that BBC report is a lot more balanced than many of the reports portraying Abu Qatada as a hateful “Muslim cleric”. Cameron and May, and their policy of generating hatred against Muslims, are the ones who ought to go.

  52. Suhayl at 7.41 a.m. I have met Hamja too, and like you say he is a tireless campaigner. I feel so sorry for the Ahsan family. I also feel bitter towards my government for creating an atmosphere of hate that never existed at government level when I was younger. There were a few individual exceptions but they never made it to party leadership. Today the discrimination comes from the top and is poisoning the minds of the great mass of disinterested people who are content to wallow in apathy and “soap operas”.

  53. The Spiegel interview with Edward Snowden, now on his way to……………..
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/interview-with-whistleblower-edward-snowden-on-global-spying-a-910006.html

    This article argues that Germany could take him in, but Germany does not want to raise the wrath of the US such move would cause, a lack of will to stand up against the snooping bullies.

    It would also reveal the extend the BND has cooperated with the NSA.
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/venezuela-says-it-would-give-snowden-asylum-a-910200.html

  54. Sounds familiar!

    Military appointed Egyptian PM tells people: prepare for cuts.

    Posted on July 10, 2013

    According to The New York Times, the appointment of Hazem el-Beblawi as Prime Minister sends ‘a signal that the military-led transitional government intends to move forward with economic reforms and restructuring including reductions in the country’s vast public subsidies’.

    el-Beblawi himself is quoted as saying that ‘We must create a clear understanding for the public that the level of subsidies in Egypt is unsustainable, and the situation is critical’, and that ‘The canceling of subsidies requires sacrifices from the public and therefore necessitates their acceptance’.

    /..

    http://interventionswatch.wordpress.com/2013/07/10/military-appointed-egyptian-pm-tells-people-prepare-for-cuts/

  55. The descent into total anarchy speeds up.

    10 July 2013 Last updated at 11:58
    Muslim Brotherhood leader Mohammed Badie arrest ordered
    Breaking news

    Egypt’s prosecutor’s office has ordered the arrest of the leader of the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood movement, Mohammed Badie, state media report.

    Mr Badie is accused of inciting the violence in Cairo on Friday in which at least 51 people were killed.

    Several leading Brotherhood figures are already in detention and warrants have been issued for hundreds more.

    It comes as the new interim president attempts to form a government after the overthrow of President Mohammed Morsi.

    /..

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23256937

  56. From Jonathan Cook, ex Guardian (he got out), who now lives with his Palestinian wife in Nazareth – within the belly of the beast as we say. He knows what he is talking about of course. Israel wants the whole lot.

    Treatment of Palestinians is Apartheid by Any Other Name
    by Jonathan Cook / July 10th, 2013

    Were it not for the razor wire, giant concrete blocks, steel gates, watchtower and standard-issue surly teenage soldier, it would be impossible to tell at what point the barren uplands of Israel’s eastern Negev give way to the South Hebron Hills of the West Bank.

    The military checkpoint of Shani vaguely marks the formal demarcation between Israel and occupied Palestinian territory, but in practical terms the distinction is meaningless. On either side of the Green Line, Israel is in charge.

    In recent weeks it has been intensifying a campaign to evict Palestinian farming communities summarily from their ancestral lands to replace them with Jewish newcomers.

    Israeli human rights lawyers, tired of the international community’s formulaic criticisms, say it is time to be more forthright. They call these “ethnic cleansing” zones – intended to drive off Palestinians irrespective of the provisions of international law and whether or not the Palestinians in question hold Israeli citizenship.

    /..

    http://dissidentvoice.org/2013/07/treatment-of-palestinians-is-apartheid-by-any-other-name/

  57. doug scorgie

    10 Jul, 2013 - 1:23 pm

    Flaming June
    9 Jul, 2013 – 1:03 pm

    “If Blair approves of Miliband’s actions, as he did this morning on Sky, then you know Miliband is wrong.”

    Yes, quit true.

    Perhaps we should call him Ed Miliblair.

  58. The Talha Ahsan case was raised on this thread by others, Habbabkuk, not by me (though I have raised it extensively elsewhere). So I felt I had to respond.

    Also, Talha’s case has been linked to Abu Qatada’s by the ‘trial by media’; Talha often is mentioned as part of group of “others” in the same breath as Abu Qatada and it is this that is misleading and which needs cleared-up. Also, the sympathetic coverage given to the white hackers (who actually admitted they had done what they were accused of doing) was entirely different from the negative or omitted publicity given to Talha’s case. The families of Talha Ahsan and Gary McKinnon, for example, were actually mutually supportive, but Talha never gets mentioned in the same media breath as Gary McKinnon. This is likely to be the product of both deliberate and subconscious distortion by large sections of the media. Organisations like ‘Liberty’ were very quick and keen publicly to be seen to supporting the McKinnon family but much less eager – until a very late stage – to be seen doing the same with the Ahsan family.

    So one cannot view these things in a vacuum and one might argue that to do so itself is “meaningless… and evasive”.

  59. Now, to repeat my very simple question: Do you agree with Abu Qatada’s views and alleged actions?

    This line of discourse is so familiar! he nice man on the telly: “do you believe that Tony bLiar did not knowingly mislead the parliament”? This rhetorical line of questioning seeks no answers and only is designed to reinforce the assertions and assumptions of the questionnaire.

    The fact we have not any first hand transcripts of Abu Qatada preachings,other than well managed clips aired so often in the mejdia, and so far as his actions goes, what has he done? Is only a matter for those whom knew Abu Qatada first hand and personally. Therefore, how can anyone agree with Abu Qatada’s actions, and views is not subject of the question, and instead the more direct; “do you agree with Abu Qatada?”

    But I’m not sure why exactly you are seeking to argue that Far Right religious supremacism is not antithetical to Leftist political views/activity.

    A- it is not far right.

    B- it is not supremacist.

    The socialist view is pretty well and alive in Iran. However because their brand of socialism is not the same brand as in the West somehow does not mean the Iranian politics are based on far right supremacist dogma. This fact is patently obvious through the constant demonetisation of Iran by the so called “capitalist” systems, and their covert war on Iran for the last four decades.

  60. Suhayl at 6.49 pm. I think the person who Talha Ahsan has been most linked to is Abu Hamza, another Muslim cleric, the man with the hook. Abu Qatada made an appeal from prison for the release of British hostage and peace activist Norman Kember.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jun/18/uksecurity.terrorism

    He has also repeatedly called for the release of prisoners and and closure of Guantanamo Bay. I am trying to get information from the Home Office as to what his alleged crimes are.

    Doug Scorgie at 1.23 pm. I think Miliblair is a very good name. Long before he attacked the union that paid for his passage to parliament (would you call it biting the hand that feeds you?) he had revealed his true colours to me. As a friend of Israel he forced Paul Flynn to apologise over questions Flynn raised regarding meetings between Werritty, Gould, et al (including Bro David) but the thing that showed me his true colours was after the death of Abdelbaset al Megrahi when Cameron said there would be no public inquiry over Lockerbie. Miliband agreed. They all sing from the same song-book.

  61. “[Mod/Jon: excessive focussing on one particular poster, will continue to remove these]”

    On the scales of balance should one not also place the excessive volume and randomness of one particular poster. Being bombarded left, right and centre, its only a normal human sensibility to be irritated to say the least. Hardly the spirit of the suggestion of choosing a topic and inviting discussion which might lead to some enlightenment.

  62. John,, you’re correct, it was Abu Hamza. I guess my point was that one cannot simply view these cases exclusively through a legal prism. They are political cases on every level.

    Fed Up, that’s true about Iran. There have been such elements since 1979.

  63. Sadly, though, FedUp, it’s not been true of every other regime/configuration where Islamism has featured.

  64. Like most of these florid Islamist UK-based mullahs, was Abu Qatada a UK security service asset? This would be no surprise, given the history.

    http://www.nafeezahmed.com/2012/11/abu-qatada-asset-we-cant-get-rid-of.html

  65. Sadly, though, FedUp, it’s not been true of every other regime/configuration where Islamism has featured.

    True! The saddest part is everyday many innocent people are subject to the most terrible abuses of their inalienable/god given human rights. The roots of this corruption is to be found in the leadership arrangements that are normally based on the political imperatives of the the sponsors of the charge hands who are to be put in charge of these benighted masses.

    Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi, Jordan, Yemen, ….. the nationals of these countries have been systematically denuded from their rights, and their dignity to keep the oil flowing, keep the Western arms factories rolling out death machinery, and the banksters in the money.

    The Islam-ism label so much bandied around is designed to destroy one of the very few avenues available to these masses to rid themselves form the tyranny of their ruling elite. The simple fact is, in almost all of these nations they have no longer any kind of organic opposition within their civil constructs. The oppostion has been systematically destroyed.

    As we debate, the Egyptian Generals are hunting down the Muslim Brotherhood members and leaders, in line with other regimes in the area. Further, the extensive internal surveillance and oppression that is so extensively rooted in the governance of these countries. This makes it improbable for the trapped masses to organise in any fashion. The only mechanics of mass gatherings or mass actions are to be found in mosques and religious institutions. Hence the onslaught on all things “Islam-ist”. This is to hedge the longevity of the oil flow, in return for weapons and constructs of oppression, and most important of of all “interest payments/rent payments”.

  66. @John Goss. 7 38am

    “… is that an admission that you are Sophie.”

    Yes. She turned up by accident but then took on a life of her own until I carelessly copied and pasted Kibo’s previous posting and outed her.

    I’m glad she entertained you.

  67. Kibo Noh, me too, glad she entertained me. Are you a playwright? I think you have a gift.

  68. Suhayl, at 11.13. It would not surprise me. I’ve asked the question in my FOI request whether Abu Qatada was ever an asset but can pretty well guess the answer.

  69. Have to Agree With John..Sophie was Brilliant…A child Prodigy for sure, Thank you Kibo Noh.

  70. @John Goss. 12 07am

    Thanks. Not everyone shared your opinions about her posts.

    “Are you a playwright?”

    No. Not much of a writer at all. But having experienced Sophia’s constant nagging at me to give her a voice I now have some understanding of how it must be for those with the gift.

    She brought back to me such a vivid sense of the frequent bafflement and rage I felt around that age, at the antics of the grown-ups who lorded so pompously over my world.

    The character that possessed me can maybe be explained by my life-long enjoyment of Tom Sharpe and many a happy evening spent reading Terry Pratchet’s wonderful books aloud to my kids.

  71. @Brian. 12 36am

    Thanks.

    Maybe I’ll find a way to resurrect her without breaking blog etiquette.

  72. Kibo Noh. You should bring her back. She keeps her wayward (and currently travelling) father in check.

    Sorry Pratchett and Sharpe are too modern for us oldies.

  73. Flaming June

    11 Jul, 2013 - 9:10 am

    Don’t mention the word ‘coup’ contd

    ‘US-Egypt fighter jet deal ‘on track’
    The US is going ahead with plans to deliver four F-16 fighter jets to Egypt despite the political unrest in the country,senior American officials say.

    It comes as Washington is continuing to evaluate last week’s overthrow of President Mohammed Morsi by the army.

    US massive military aid to Cairo would have to be cut by law if the removal of the Islamist leader is determined by Washington to have been a coup.’

    /..
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23265632

    [Mod: removed an addendum here that commented on another poster – please stick to politics]

  74. Sorry Pratchett and Sharpe are too modern for us oldies.

    Speaking as a living fossil, I object. No-one is ever too old for Pratchett, and if anything Sharpe is unsuitable for the young. Start with “Small Gods” by the one and “Riotous Assembly” by the other. I defy you not to continue.

  75. I can never forgive Kibo Noh for breaking this old dragon’s sentimental heart. When I learned that Sophie, to whom when she was old enough, I would gladly have plighted my reptilian troth*, was naught but a figment of the imagination, a cluster of pixels fraudulently expressed in cyberspace, a marionette suggested by the outlines of a Footeze ™ Gentleman’s Stocking (treated with Cheese-sorb ™), I wept uncontrollably for hours and could only console myself by eating 1 pig, half a stray dog and several of my neighbour’s children.

    For shame.

    *not in the same place as mammalian troth, and nicer to look at.

  76. Had to visit an American website to discover what the NuLabour Blairite FoIs have been up to in recent days. Note the names of those present at the gathering.

    The British Labour / Israel Dinner Date
    by JAMES ELLIOTT
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/10/the-british-labour-israel-dinner-date/

    The only cheering thing to read is that Labour Friends of Palestine has a membership of 80.

    http://www.lfi.org.uk/lfi-supporters-in-parliament/

    The JC reports some warmongering by Alexander
    .
    ‘Mr Alexander said the threat posed by Iran must be taken seriously. The country’s funding of Hizbollah, support for Syria’s President Assad, and supply of weapons to the Taliban, meant “a nuclear armed Iran is not simply a threat to Israel, it is a threat to all nations”.

    He added: “Israel has a right, indeed an obligation, to defend itself, and as past conflicts remind us, that demands a strong Israeli Defence Force.”’

    http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/109222/shadow-foreign-secretary-douglas-alexander-warns-labour-over-israel

    Note Balls is off to Israel.

  77. [Mod: comment entirely about another poster, removed]

  78. OK, you old dragon, I’ll take your advice over “Small Gods” by Pratchett and “Riotous Assembly” by Sharpe, when I get a few free moments.

  79. Fedup, at 11:38pm on 10.7.13: Brilliant post, thanks.

    John, good on you.

    Kibo Noh, you need a new name? How about… let me see… ‘Shantelle’? [the second syllable enunciated, not in a French accent, but loudly in female falsetto Glaswegian]

  80. Hi Suhayl, belated thanks for your earlier appreciation of my post extract from K. Wonder if you actually read that piece or watched the video. I do recommend it/them. He so shows the wrong turn that humanity has taken and in a holistic way points out another way.

    More insights and less analysis is humanity’s need in these very conflicted times. Keep yours coming.

  81. Flaming June

    11 Jul, 2013 - 3:21 pm

    [Mod: removed, off-topic]

  82. Flaming June

    11 Jul, 2013 - 3:28 pm

    Just watching the close of the debate about the need for a vote in parliament before arming the Syrian opposition groups.

    Winding up, the shadow minister of foreign affairs Ian Lucas is a member of Labour Friends of Israel and the minister Alistair Burt was a member of the Conservative Friends of Israel. Perhaps its the done thing for ministers to come out of it for the duration.

    A vote on the motion has been called for.

  83. Flaming June

    11 Jul, 2013 - 3:45 pm

    A different view of Mandela and the ANC from the one usually received. Pilger always writes from the basis of his own knowledge and experience.

    From Apartheid to Neoliberalism in South Africa
    Mandela’s Tarnished Legacy http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/11/mandelas-tarnished-legacy/ John Pilger.

    ~~~

    PS The vote on the motion “This House believes no lethal support should be provided to anti-government forces in Syria without the explicit prior consent of parliament” was 147 for and 1 against, so that’s Cameron and Hague told and will hopefully prevent them taking any action during the 7 week long Summer recess.

  84. Members of the master race only agree with democracy for lesser races when lesser races vote for things people from the master race agree with.
    :)
    People in Muslim countries want to be governed by Islam.
    Get over it!

    You might believe your way of life is superior to anyone elses, but everyone else disagrees. Just as you believe your race is superior to anyone elses but you don’t seem to like to admit that anymore.

    You to your way, we to ours.

    You know you whites like to tell us lesser races about the wonders of your way of life. How secularism protects everyones right to follow their religion.
    It might protect your right to swear at the Prophet’s but it doesn’t protect our rights to follow them.
    Egypt was full of bans on Hijab and restrictions on men growing beards and praying in Mosques when it followed your enlightened secularism.
    So please take your secularism and shove it up your enlightened arse.
    :)
    We will govern ourselves by Islam to protect our rights to follow our religion.
    And we will also protect the rights of Non-Muslims to follow theirs because Islam gives them that right.

  85. ‘Ow’s the fish, Arsalan? Good to hear from you again, man. Even if I find your post (4:44pm) touchingly naive. Haven;t you noticed that the Great Powers of our Sublime North Atlantic Alliance have been supporting Islamic paramilitaries right across the Middle East? So, my firned, be uplifted: The Great Satan is with you!

  86. Whether they are with us or against us, the Islamic parties are what people voted for.
    Right wing white supremacists say, “who the people voted for should be ignored and the army supported because the great Satan is against them”.

    The left white supremacists say “We support the army against who the people voted for because the great Satan only pretends to be against Islam, America is really the main supporters of that”.

    Whoever the great Satan supports is not relevant to the blatant hypocrisy of people that claim to believe in democracy but change their minds as soon as brown people vote for people they disagree with.

    Our reason why we believe in Islam is nothing to do with a belief that “”America is against islam”, just as it isn’t due to a belief “America is for Islam”.
    We believe in Islam, because Islam is what we believe in.
    And when the people are allowed free and fair elections, they vote for Islamic parties.
    And when they did so in Algeria, the people they voted for were declared terrorists for the crime of winning the election.
    We believe in Islam, all of it. It is up to America whether they like the fact we do or hate the fact we do. It makes no difference to us, we will always believe in Islam.
    And true Muslims want to be governed by Islam, all of it. Not just the bits that are acceptable to whites.

  87. Hallelujah!

    Well, democracy is about more than just a ballot every four years as an means to absolute power. And billions of petrodollars and paramilitary forces that crush all other possibilities (except military rule) do not constitute ‘the will of the people’. And when the people recognise that they’ve been duped by neoliberal Islamist agents, and rise up to topple the agents, the army steps in and stops the people taking power by placing yet more neoliberal agents into positions of power.

    And Arsalan, when you claim to talk for “brown people”, and ‘Muslim people’ perhaps you would do well to remember that you too are white and that you cannot claim to talk for all, or even the majority of, Muslim people.

  88. Democracy is hypocrisy. It isn’t my slogan, i am not the one that claims to believe in it. It is they that do. And it is they that reject it when it results in something that they disagree with.
    Democray is just a rubber stamp they use to justify putting in power who they would have put in to power anyway.

    Do you even think about what you write?
    Haven’t you seen the billions in petro dollars the oil amirs have given to the millitry dictators after the coup? the Fighter jets America just handed over to them?
    The fact that every western government recognised the coup?

    But all that is irrilivant. you hold the same mindset as the colonialists on how the natives can not be trusted to choose their own way. If they choose anyway but your own they have been duped havent they?

    Just to clarify, I am not a supporter of the brotherhood or morsi. They were idiots if they thought they had a chance of taking power through the ballot box. didn’t algeria teach them anything?
    I don’t believe in Democract, the west doesn’t believe in democracy, the army doesn’t believe in democracry and Suhayl Saadi, you don’t believe in democracy.
    We all believe in out own way of government. And if the people agree with us, we agree with them. Unlike you I admit that I don’t believe in democracy. While you and the west redefine it everytime when the people want something that isn’t what you want.

    The only people who believe in democracy are the people who would agree with its outcome if it was something other than what they themselves would have chosen.
    That isn’t me, and it clearly isn’t you.

  89. You know I was refering to the imperialist mindset by “brown and white”, it is beneath you to pretend that you didnt.

  90. Arsalan, if I read your 2:10pm post correctly, you seem to be saying much the same as Islam4UK, a group of pro-Sharia fundamentalists who wish to remove democracy in the UK and replace it with theocratic rule. I met some of them, rather by accident, as they were doing a roadshow around the UK and were speaking to members of the public – I spoke to one chap for an hour or so.

    His basic error – and yours if you don’t mind my saying – is believing that the atrocities caused by the West represent the will of Western people. One or two people here have recently made the point that the UK is more democratic than other places (including places that are theocratically ruled) but it would be fair to add that it is not democratic enough. The invasion of Iraq was specifically undemocratic, since many millions of ordinary people marched against it and it went ahead anyway.

    People in Muslim countries want to be governed by Islam.

    This, thankfully, is a sweeping generalisation, and thus is false. Yes, some people in Muslim countries support Sharia law as a replacement for a democracy, but not everyone does. I should think people of other religions and people of none in (predominantly) Muslim countries do not wish to see Sharia introduced at all.

    Incidentally, if you are taking the view that Suhayl above is speaking in support of imperialism, then I think you have substantially misunderstood him.

  91. well Kibo Noh, thanks for the delightful Sophia, so well versed with shedlife.

    which brings me to this Sunday afternoon diversion….

    Mind, I’m well aware that some of the best ideas, ever, have come out of sheds and garages, spaces were you gaze outside, listen to the birds and bees, whilst letting the innovative mind sore to ever more intricate heights, were blueprints become Eureka moments and were life is easy holding a cup of tea.

    make mine an Assam, watch in wonder, a motorbike with no frame in the 1990’s, awesome.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGFkfhrTrIk

  92. Jon
    I don’t know them. I don’t speak for them, they don’t speak for me.

    It isn’t Muslims that want to replace democracy with Islamic law.
    There is no such thing as the democracy you are on about.
    It is just a useless slogan.

    It wasn’t us, so called Muslim fundamentalists who go about removing democratically elected governments.
    People voted for what you called fundamentalist Islamists.
    And it is blatant hypocrisy for people like yourself to claim you believe in democracy, but not if the people want a system you disagree with.

    My question to you is, if the majority of people here in the UK want to be ruled by Islam. If an Islamic part won the election, would you stop believing in democracy?

  93. Arsalan, having the vote is not a sufficient condition to ensure democracy on its own. After all Hitler was democratically elected and look what he did with it. It seems to me that for a democracy to function properly it has to be propped up by three basic pillars (and the institutions that support them) – the right to vote, freedom of speech/press, and the rule of law.

    Challenge them as I have inadvertently done and you will soon find that these pillars are more fiction than reality. Here in Canada, as in the UK, it has to be said that the democracy is a bit of a sham and it seems to me that with the growing power of the secret (and unaccountable)security state, the situation is getting worse day by day.

    And there is a forth pillar too – the right of minorities not to be dominated by the majority.

  94. ‘ello Arsalan,

    I don’t know them. I don’t speak for them, they don’t speak for me.

    Of course, I didn’t claim that. I said that you both appear to be saying the same things, with my intended inference being that you are inadvertently supporting religious fundamentalism.

    There is no such thing as the democracy you are on about.

    Do you mean there are no current examples of it, or that it is impossible? To take the first point, there has been discussion here in the past about Swiss I & R, which already exists, and whilst it is not perfect, I think it would be the right step forward for any state that genuinely wishes to be ruled by the demos. If however you believe it is impossible to achieve, I disagree – we need to be optimistic.

    It wasn’t us, so called Muslim fundamentalists who go about removing democratically elected governments.

    And it wasn’t us, so-called democracy supporters, who go about removing democratically elected governments.

    My question to you is, if the majority of people here in the UK want to be ruled by Islam. If an Islamic [party] won the election, would you stop believing in democracy?

    Ah, I think I understand your earlier comments now – you are disenfranchised with systems that are labelled “democratic” because, in the West, the “wrong” election result (such as Hamas in Palestine) will sometimes not be recognised by world powers. I agree with you on this point: this is an example of abuse of imperial power, but since it’s an undemocratic abuse, it’s not the fault of the theory of democracy. It just means that democracy isn’t respected by elites as much as it should be (but then that has always been the case). I’ll touch on this later, though.

    To answer your question directly, I’ll assume by “Islamic party” you mean one that would implement Sharia courts and remove the houses of Parliament, the judiciary and the principles of the legal system. If such a party won an election fairly in the UK, I would not recognise the result, since it is undemocratic to use democracy to destroy democracy. Put another way, if the people who voted for this party changed their mind after a few years of theocratic rule, they would not be able to vote them out since voting will have been abolished.

    For what it’s worth, I think I would struggle to come to terms with any faith party doing well in the British polls. We have something of a proud record of secularism in both national and local elections, and I hope it stays that way. Religion (and thus also religious politics) is, in my view, a symbol of the suffering of the masses, who turn to increasingly irrational solutions to ameliorate their woes. Even though faith fails to cure the ills of poverty, war, basic want and hunger, the feeling that we have a benign creator is comforting but unprovable.

    That all said, it’ll surprise you to hear that I respect people’s religious choices, since people must be free to decide for themselves. I think on the whole religion (and religious politics) is bad for people.

    Earlier I indicated that Hamas should be recognised as the government of Palestine. However, I also don’t think governments should be religious in character. Thus, I suppose I have two competing values (respect for democracy and support for secular governance) so I have to sort them in order of importance.

    So I understand where you are coming from, is there an example of an Islamic party in the world (whether in power or not) who you would vote for?

  95. “And there is a forth pillar too – the right of minorities not to be dominated by the majority.”

    This is the excuse they use to nulify democracy when lesser races are the majority and the master race is the minority.

    They have no problems at all with the majority dominating the minority when they themselves are the majority, do they?
    When France bans the Hijab and the Niqab, it is democracy and the minority needs to submit or get out?
    Isn’t it?
    And Canada itself has it’s own bans on Islamic practice, so before you come to us to preach respecting minorities to us. Isn’t it about time you started implimenting it where you are?
    Well, not just us, the way you treat your aboriginal minority is much worse.

    And that is exactly why I use “White and brown” here.
    It is all to do with racial superiority of the white race. When a non-Muslim country votes in someone with ideas whites don’t like they use the same old excuses.

    Remember what this thread is about?
    It is about people in Egypt voting for a party that some white people wish they had not voted for. And then those same white people who always talk about how white nations are superior to brown because white nations have democracy, suporting the army in removing that elected government.

    This is not just about Egypt.
    Islamic parties have won elections in many other nations.
    And everytime they do, the very people that scream democracy and use it as an excuse to kill and invade make excuses against democracy.
    Elections are just a rubber stamp when your guy wins.
    When the other guy wins, then winning an election is an act of terrorism. For which people are arrested, tortured and killed.
    :)
    So, you the enlightened white master race can take your freedom, your democracy, your capitalism, socialism, communism, freedom and secularism and shove it up your chock on it.
    You to your way and we to ours.

    We have our own ways of governing ourselves. you might think your ways are better just as you think your race is better. But we don’t. Get over it!

  96. Jon I think I need to clarify my position.

    I think the confusion might be my fault because I have said two seperate things and not indicate they are seperate.

    My first point was to do with this thread.
    The elections in egypt.
    the Brotherhood won.
    the Army removed them.
    They were arrested for the crime of winning an election.
    The west recognised the army rule.
    My point was to show the hypocrisy of those people who keep calling for democracy but call for something else when anyone other then their own people win.

    Jon your last post shows the key issues here. Democracy is just one tiny part of what people believe in when it comes to ruling.
    If the people you elect implement what you want implemented you are happy with democracy. If they implement anything else you are not happy.
    You wouldn’t like to be government by Shariya courts.
    But the people of Egypt would.
    That is why they voted for who they did.
    The same thing happened in Algeria. And if every Muslim country ever had free and fair elections, you would find that is what would happen all over the Muslim world.
    That is why White countries support the dictators and kings in the Muslim world.
    They make no secret of knowing the system that would replace them if there were free and fair elections.
    My first point was to call YOUR democracy, hypocrisy.
    The fact is you believe in your system, and if an election results in your system all well and good. But if it results in anything else. Well then the election is not valid is it?
    You don’t really believe in democracy do you? in the rule of the people. you and everyone else believe in the rule of yourown people.
    People that think like you.

    My second point was:
    So do I. I don’t believe in democracy. I believe in my own way.
    I am just not a hypocrit about it. I don’t claim it is all about the majority of people agrying with me.

    So the best thing for all concerned is white people should rule white countries by their white ways.
    And allow us lesser people to rule ourselves by our ways.

    We have our own history and traditions that we can use to develope our own systems.
    We have no reason to want to become duplicates of the white race.

    What confuses me is why you all go on about Muslims trying to force their shariya courts on you?
    It isn’t use invading your countries forcing our ways on you. It is the other way.
    There are no Muslims trying to take over the UK or canada or any other white nation. None of us are lobying the priminister to make him implemant islamic law.
    It is the other way.
    It is you forcing your ways on us.

  97. Arsalan, thanks.

    I haven’t made my mind up about the events in Egypt. I would in general agree that the army seizing power is a worrying development, and yes, the US recognition is bound to have come from the usual self-serving “American interests” mindset. However, I am moderately of the opinion that the overthrow has widespread popular support, i.e. the people changed their mind. If you have views on that I should be most interested to hear them. Did the Brotherhood fail to live up to expectations, or has popular support for the coup been mischaracterised?

    You wouldn’t like to be government by Shariya courts.
    But the people of Egypt would.
    That is why they voted for who they did.

    I have to say I don’t know the dynamics in Egypt well enough to be able to comment on that. My guess is that they appear to be, in the main, quite moderate and the Egyptian people voted for them on that basis. From my limited understanding, the Brotherhood would likely have continued within a democratic framework, and that there was no popular mandate for its dissolution. I should be interested if you know otherwise, of course.

    Some of what you say confuses imperialism’s disdain for democracy with my concerns about undemocratic systems, and you are entirely wrong to suggest I don’t believe in democracy. I suggested that if a religious party was voted into power in the UK, and they intended to dismantle the democratic framework, then the result should not be accepted; I say this because I believe in democracy, not because I don’t.

    I accept that rejecting a democratic decision to destroy democracy is a contradiction, it certainly is. In such cases, one again has to prioritise competing values. But equally, your position contains the opposite contradiction: you claim to hate democracy and appear to be in favour of absolutist theocratic rule, but you wish to use democracy as the vehicle to get you there. Is that not odd, in your mind?

    So the best thing for all concerned is white people should rule white countries by their white ways.

    This is worrying stuff. There is no such thing as a “white country” and making this the fault of “whites” is as racist as the imperial attitudes towards Muslims that you rightly decry. In any case, US/UK support for dreadful regimes around the world is essentially a capitalist decision – any religious/racial conflict that stems from it is regarded by the elites as just a side-effect.

    I notice you use the word “you” a lot, suggesting that you believe I am personally forcing my ways onto you. I am doing no such thing, but importantly, it reveals your world-view to be quite them-and-us, which is wrong. Some Muslim folk are quite attached to democracy, as it happens, just as some white folks would abolish it tomorrow if they could.

    None of us are lobying the Prime Minister to make him implement Islamic law.

    Not true, as my earlier post showed. There are groups in the UK who are (or at least were) calling for theocratic rule and the dissolution of the democratic and legal mechanisms.

    Final point; I’d like to appeal to you to try to understand my views as being well-motivated. If you believe that I support American imperialism, or that I am secretly racist, it just isn’t true. I want peace, security and justice for everyone, and I condemn imperialism in all its forms. Whilst you genuinely think religious rule will solve the problems of predominantly Muslim countries, I regard that as an example of false consciousness i.e. you actively support policies that are opposed to your own interests. Perhaps you have been lured into that view by seeing Islamic countries as a barrier to total American domination, and whilst that may be true to some extent, you put too much faith in fallible humans to think it can’t go wrong.

    If you support the creation of a religious oligarchy, and such a thing were to come into existence where you live, you may later regret it. Unfortunately your support cannot be withdrawn, and short of a popular revolution you will not be allowed to change your mind.

  98. Arsalan makes FedUp/Passerby look like Norman St John Stevas.

  99. Arsalan – I was not referring to Egypt in my earlier comment since I have not been given enough information by the media in Canada to be able to form a knowledgeable opinion; though in general I don’t like to see the military intervene either.

    Nor do I support Canada’s treatment of its dissenters, and the lack of adherence of the Harper Government to rule of law and even basic civil liberties. Their record on democracy is truly shocking. Mr. Harper is marching us down the road to a sham democracy. Our security agencies are totally out of control and becoming a threat to democracy. I have written on the subject.

    http://lobster-magazine.co.uk/free/lobster65/lob65-canadian-spy-agency.pdf

    I am not in any way opposed to fundamental religion provided it doesn’t interfere in the lives of those who have a different viewpoint. I can certainly think of the West’s past sins in this regard – from Torquemada and the Inquisition to the fundamentalist political movements we have had in Europe that brook no opposition and seem to have a need to persecute in an almost quasi-religious manner – Hitler and Auschwitz or Stalin and the Gulag, etc.. But, what all this tells me is that there is a need to protect minority rights if one wants to live in an inclusive, tolerant and prosperous state as I do – what I called in my earlier comment: the 4th pillar of democracy.

  100. How ironic that Arsalan Goldberg writes this:

    “So the best thing for all concerned is white people should rule white countries by their white ways.
    And allow us lesser people to rule ourselves by our ways.”

    Arsalan, you are white and you are from, of and are living in (what you would call) a ‘white’ country.

    What is this, Stockholm Syndrome? Lebensraum? “Our ways”. Yeah, sure. “Our ways”, defined by Maududi and Qutb and propelled by the House of Ibn Saud.

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