Air Disaster 530


Grief is the only appropriate reaction to the death of so many people on Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17. The point scoring and guessing games are macabre. Of course, some people have to suppress grief and get to work urgently to secure the crash site from interference so there can be a proper investigation of what happened.

We have no idea what evidence lies behind the various statements as to who did or did not shoot down the plane. There is no evidence I have seen that it was shot down at all. This could relate to Ukrainian violence, it could relate to MH 370, it could be an unrelated incident. We really don’t know yet.

What is particularly ghoulish is the false grief, what I might call the triumphalist shroud waving, of those seeking gleefully to blame the side they do not support in the Ukrainian conflict. In the current total absence of evidence, this is abominable behaviour.


530 thoughts on “Air Disaster

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  • Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    The media reports, prior to receiving evidence on the ground, were full of the sound and fury ‘Putin’ and it was clear to me that they were briefed by someone with prior knowledge.

    It was much like the police radios squawking a near Bio of Oswald 9 minutes after the head shot.

    We were so much younger then, we’re older than that now.

  • Resident Dissident

    “Paul Craig Roberts (from the link supplied by Mike). Now watch the trolls attack Paul Craig Roberts instead of the arguments.”

    Well I’ll lay off the rather easy task of attacking Paul Craig Roberts – and cut through his article and find his arguments that relate to the plane being shot down (the rest is just his usual hyperbole that the US always lies so it must be lying this time – which even you must realise is not really an argument that can be challenged with reason and logic)

    So his real argument comes down to the following paragraph

    “At this time as I write, we have no reliable information about the airliner, but the Roman question always pertains: “Who benefits?” There is no conceivable motive for separatists to shoot down an airliner, but Washington did have a motive–to frame-up Russia–and possibly a second motive. Among the reports or rumors there is one that says Putin’s presidential plane flew a similar route to that of the Malaysian airliner within 37 minutes of one another. This report has led to speculation that Washington decided to rid itself of Putin and mistook the Malaysian airliner for Putin’s jet. RT reports that the two airplanes are similar in appearance. http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/

    As for the conceivable motive – well here is one – the rebels thought they were shooting down an Antonov troop carrier – and lo and behold that is exactly what there leader claimed to have done on Twitter and VK. They have already shot down UKrainian helicopters and troop carriers and they thought in their ill trained ignorance that they had downed another. As for the Putin story – have you noticed how quickly that was dropped by the Voice of the Lubyanka (or RT as you prefer to call it).

  • Dreoilin

    “Russians did it” story has crashed and burned via media overkill, all using same talking points and not asking basic journalist questions.”

    Twitter comment.
    And if things carry on the way they’re going, I’d agree.

    (Washington, of course, wouldn’t understand the concept of overkill.)

  • Johnstone

    Very apt quote Ben and the last verse goes like this

    My guard stood hard when abstract threats
    Too noble to neglect
    Deceived me into thinking
    I had something to protect
    Good and bad, I define these terms
    Quite clear, no doubt, somehow
    We were…..

  • Sofia

    RD. 9 31pm

    Are you suggesting the UN FAO is conspiring to mislead us about the soils of the Donetsk region?

    “Soil round Donetsk and Lugansk regions, typical chernozems stretch, with the thickness of their humus bed up to 80-90 cm, formed on moist-loamy strata.”

    http://www.fao.org/ag/AGP/AGPC/doc/Counprof/Ukraine/ukraine.htm

    Check Fred’s link for images of the rocky wheatfields where the debris lie. Cunning farmers those Ukrainians!

  • Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    Mr Goss

    Please stop your usual evasions and respond pertinently to Resident Dissident’s post at 21h49 (last para in particular).

    Thank you.

  • Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    Mr Goss

    Also, please answer my question on how you managed to get into a respectable university.

    It obviously taught you none of the skills a university is supposed to teach.

    Why did you bother?

  • Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    Ben (California Nazi League)

    “Johnstone; I hope Dylan wouldn’t mind my transposing (sic) that line,…”

    __________________________

    What makes you think Bob Dylan would give a toss whether you transpose (sic) or not?

    Who are you to him?

  • Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    Paul Craig Roberts – Binoy Kampmark ( a Commonwealth scholar, no less!) – Global Research and the egregious Professor Michel – dissidentvoice.org – voltairenet with the respected Thierry Meyssan……..

    ….and so the dreary procession continues: has-beens and never-weres.

    Truly, by their sources shall ye know them! 🙂

    *********************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  • Resident Dissident

    Sofia

    Look at the map I provided – it is a Russian map (and more detailed than the FAO you linked to) and it is pretty clear about the type of soils in the area where the plain crashed. It is possible to grow wheat in areas without particularly deep soils. Rock is rock I’m afraid. I’d also be pretty careful about commenting on the size of any craters without any aerial photos – which for obvious reasons are not currently available.

  • Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    You seem a little off your meds tonight, havasack. Better call in someone from your shallow bench of alternates. Call in sick and take some ipecac.

  • fred

    “Is the problem with Facebook? Or the spooks? Or just a glitch?”

    The problem is that you missed a hyphen off the end of the link.

  • Resident Dissident

    The Spain Report may have been written by a blogger – but he produced a copy of an email from the Spanish Foreign Office about the non existent Carlos.

    There are also reports that Carlos posted from London and that he even tweeted that he was kicked out of the Ukraine back in May because he was a spy back. The likelihood is that he was one of the KGB’s internet activists, from whom we have the occasional visit.

  • John Goss

    (“Is the problem with Facebook? Or the spooks? Or just a glitch?”

    The problem is that you missed a hyphen off the end of the link.)

    So a glitch then. But it was not me because I just shared someone else’s link. But thanks anyway for solving it Fred. 🙂

    I meant to mention in my previous comment that the new BRICS bank threat may be the reason the USA is trying to create a war with Russia. The USA’s people are impoverished and yet it is has stockpiles of the most sophisticated weaponry it is just itching to get its trigger fingers on. Putin is trying everything to avoid conflict. The trolls back the USA (and its bend-over-backwards poodle, the UK) the aggressors rather than the peacemakers. What a world!

  • Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    Yes John. “AUSTERITY KILLS” and BRICS will disallow IMF strangleholds requiring obeisance to existing debt in order to keep your shekels dry and viable.

    It’ll be a complete write-off for all Western debtors and this scares the living shite out of them.

  • mike

    Hey FedUp, The collapse of the towers and the shadowy bogeyman who is nothing of the sort was handled very nicely by Iron Man 3. I kid you not !

    Check out the water tower collapse in the film. A nice follow up would be Captain America: The Winter Soldier. Mainstream film-makers seem to be trying to get the message across.

  • Resident Dissident

    John Goss

    Do you know anything at all about how Banks in the BRICS are currently run and regulated?? If you did, I very much doubt that someone who professes some residual socialism would be so hopeful about the proposed BRICS bank.

  • Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    “If you did, I very much doubt that someone who professes some residual socialism would be so hopeful about the proposed BRICS bank.”

    I should think the FREEEEEE Marketers would be overjoyed at the prospect of a competitive alternative.

  • Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    Excellent find John. It’s a wonder that the digital age gives us perspective on artificial ‘facts’. If only we had these capabilities earlier, like JFK’s assassination, or even 9/11.

    The Principals have their advance work cut out for them. They don’t worry about low-information citizenry, too busy to be bothered.
    But for those who have time available to dissect; it’s a wonderful thing.

  • Paul Rigby

    The weird and wonderful world of the Kievan junta just got that much stranger.

    In a desperate attempt to shore up the CIA-SBU false-flag, none other than the Chocolate Fire Guard has claimed that the junta has satellite photos of the locations from which the missiles were fired.

    Don’t hold your breath waiting for them to be produced: that will take even longer than the birth of the Ukie satellite programme:

    http://www.focus-fen.net/news/2014/07/20/343144/kiev-has-satellite-images-of-the-place-the-rocket-against-malaysian-aircraft-was-launched-said-petro-poroshenko.html

    Where does Washington find this sort of chap?

  • Fedup

    Chocolate Fire Guard has claimed that the junta has satellite photos of the locations from which the missiles were fired.

    So he can use google map too? The location is a grassland somewhere in Ukraine, so what?

    Where does Washington find this sort of chap?

    It is not that difficult to have a stable of crooks, liars, and opportunist psychos, and deploy them at will, and your own convenience.

    ======

    I should think the FREEEEEE Marketers would be overjoyed at the prospect of a competitive alternative

    This is the first step in setting up their own clearing house and bye bye the printed toilet paper called dollars. Although certain others will be in a bit of a disadvantage too, no more getting their commission/cut from playing their role as the middleman.

  • Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    “Where does Washington find this sort of chap?”

    Poroshenko’s statement is just now being released? I thought I’d heard that story earlier, but I could be wrong. Is this what’s known amongst HAM radio operators as a ‘repeater’?

    It’s odd in either case. By now they should have produced same, if it augered their agenda.

    Nicely suspicious find Paul.

  • Ангрысоба

    Mary: AFAIK there was no wreckage found at the Pentagon or in Philadelphia where there was just a small crater shown!:)

    Then I am afraid you have not even done the most basic research as even a Google image search will show you parts of a plane on the Pentagon lawn. There is less wreckage evident at the United 93 crash site but that is not surprising given the manner in which the plane apparently flew straight into the ground at speed. Yet, nonetheless there was still identifiable debris there too and if you wanted to properly research it you could instead of just parroting fact-free conspiracy musings from bloggers.

    My point, if you are interested, is that PCR’s comparison of a plane that was shot down at 33,000 with planes which were intact until impact with the ground is pathetic. If you want to compare another airline crash with United 93, then the best one that I know of is Pacific Southwest Airlines 1771:

    The plane was estimated to have crashed slightly faster than the speed of sound, at around 770 mph (1,240 km/h), disintegrating instantly. It is estimated that the aircraft hit the ground at five thousand times the force of gravity, and was traveling at an approximately 70-degree angle toward the south. The plane struck a rocky hillside, leaving a crater less than 2 feet deep and 4 feet across, presumably where the landing gear struck the ground. The high-speed impact compressed the soil, which almost immediately rebounded, throwing fragments and paper (including the note by Burke) back into the air, before flames consumed them. No one survived the crash; the force of impact meant that human remains were very small, the largest being feet in shoes. The remains of 27 passengers were never identified.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Southwest_Airlines_Flight_1771

  • OldMark

    Whilst it still seems very possible that the Malaysian airliner was shot down by rebels who mistook it for a Ukrainian troop carrier, it does appear that the Ukrainian authorities may be fabricating evidence to support this conclusion, as the link from John Goss at 11.06pm alleges.

    To date the main evidence for a rebel missile strike is the ‘intercepted phone calls’ produced by the Ukrainian authorities, and the apparently self incriminatory boast by Igor Strelkov on the Russian variant of Twitter posted on Thursday afternoon. Here is one of the first reports of Strelkov’s tweet (subsequently deleted)-

    http://mashable.com/2014/07/17/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-russia-rebel/

    The type of plane isn’t specified, but the location is described as ‘somewhere around Torez’ with the debris landing ‘behind a slagheap’.

    There are now plenty of western journalists close by the Malaysian airlines crash site, and plenty of film footage of the same.

    Have any of them seen, or filmed ,the ‘slagheap’ Strelkov referenced ?

    Strelkov posted his now deleted tweet on Thursday afternoon. On Wednesday evening a Ukrainian Su-25 was hit by a missile (the Ukrainians alleged at the time it was fired from a ‘Russian plane’, and not from a SAM launcher). This plane crashed near a place called Amvrosiyivka. According to Google earth, this location is 18 miles/29 kilometres from Torez.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/ukraine-claims-plane-shot-by-russian-missile

    Have any western journalists visited this other crash site ?
    Is there a ‘slagheap’ in the vicinity ?
    Did Strelkov post any tweets on his now deleted account on either wednesday evening or thursday morning, before the notorious ‘smoking gun’ tweet ?

    Just asking.

  • oddie

    ***BRICS BANK? BRZEZINSKI concerned for the future of the “world system”. says a whole lot.

    20 July: CNN Transcript: FAREED ZAKARIA GPS
    BRZEZINSKI: My sense is that the European public opinion is aroused. This humanitarian issue is so tragic, so painful, so cruel and so unnecessary that the Europeans are beginning to be moved. But each of the major European leaders has a role to play. Chancellor Merkel has to face the fact that her predecessor, also a chancellor, was one of the creators of Europe’s dependence on Russian energy supplies.
    Does Europe want to become a satellite? I think President Hollande has to face the fact that he cannot now, at this moment, be sending advanced arms to help Russia. Prime Minister Cameron should face the fact that the city of London has become a Las Vegas for Russian financial transactions that are self-serving.

    ***There are responsibilities these leaders have to face and they have public opinions which I think are becoming increasingly aware that this is truly a moment of decisive significance for the future of the system — of the world system…

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1407/20/fzgps.01.html

  • oddie

    on 13 July, FinTimes reported:

    Financial Times: Bitter residents of Slavyansk pick up pieces of shattered city
    “Nobody will tell you the truth now, it is dangerous,” she said. “But someone, someday, will pay for this.”…
    “About 20 per cent of our city feels liberated by the Ukrainian army. The rest [feel they] are now under occupation,” she added…
    “The Ukrainian army was worse than the German Nazis, slaughtering our peaceful citizens in their sleep,” said Nikolai Kalegin, a 71-year-old pensioner. “It is all the fault of fascist America, which wants to spark a new global war so that they can explore for shale gas here, take over Russia and the rest of the world.”…
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4fc63f78-0a92-11e4-be06-00144feabdc0.html

    the deaths of all those East Ukrainians in recent weeks meant nothing to the MSM.

  • Obviology

    Kempe is running the JFK-coup obscurantism playbook: focus on minutia to distract from the blindingly obvious. Applied to 9/11, this means fixating on the technical details of the tower collapse. Ignore the blindingly obvious absurdities: NORAD, the world’s most technically refined C3 infrastructure completely and utterly whiffed, along with the world’s most elaborate intelligence and law-enforcement apparatus. Two dozen pencil-necked grad students armed with office supplies made fools of the US government. Oops! Ali Mohamed, evil mentor of the Cole and WTC bombers, was a CIA agent and FBI informant but – Oops – he got away! Illegal biological weapons under the control of the most military force on earth somehow fell off the truck and got used to attack two Senators who just happened to be balking the PATRIOT Gemaechtigungsgesetz. Oops! The NCA sat on its thumb through it all and no heads rolled. http://www.consensus911.org/

  • DavidH

    Gosh the loonies are out in force on this one. My favorite so far is the suggestion, with no evidence at all and just because it seems a “cool” idea, that the wreckage of MH17 is actually MH370 that “they” have been keeping on hand “somewhere”. Followed closely by the unreasoned belief that Russian news sources, particularly RT and TASS, must be more reliable than western ones. Hmmmm. Just because we see clearly the faults of the western media and the Russian media are reliably anti-western, doesn’t mean the Russian media are so perfect, or even any better at all than the western. I’m all for healthy scepticism and I’m no admirer of US foreign policy, but these forms of reasoning are just daft. It’s: think of any idea that you would dearly love to be true and re-arrange / enhance / delete / make up the facts accordingly. Smells like religion to me.

    Anyway, here’s one that I don’t see mentioned above, although forgive me if it is and I missed it:

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1278239551/bellingcat/posts/919158

    Anybody heard of this Eliot Higgins guy and where he’s coming from? If a genuine attempt to open-source primary intelligence, rather then just reporting second hand conspiracy theories, then it should be of interest.

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