38 Degrees Refuse to Release Evidence of “Sexist Abuse” of Laura Kuenssberg 197


This is the transcript of my conversation with the 38 Degrees Press Spokesman today about the scrapping of the Laura Kuenssberg petition, for which 38 Degrees were praised by David Cameron in the Commons today.

Hello Craig

Hello Adam. I hope you are not quite so busy today? Has it calmed down for you?

It is a bit less busy. Well we are very busy on other important things. Did you see the article by David Babbs in the Guardian today?

I did, but it doesn’t really answer my question. I haven’t received the evidence of the abuse connected to the petition which you said you would consider sending me. Are you going to send it?

I don’t really have the time for this

But you must have this evidence. You took a well-supported petition down. You must have the evidence you based your decision on.

There were abusive tweets and comments

Can you send them to me?

You can search for them yourself online

I have done so. But you must have the evidence?

Look yourself online

This is a big story. In all the national press. You must have kept the evidence on the basis of which you made the decision?

You said yourself you had seen misogynistic comments

I said I could find a single one – very unpleasant but only one – out of hundreds of comments I read

So you did see misogynistic comments

One.

Search yourself online. There were tweets.

So far I have been able to find one. That is one comment and one tweet. Have you seen more?

There were misogynistic comments and tweets

More than two? Out of thirty five thousand signatories? How many have you seen?

There was misogynistic abuse

How many have you seen. You personally Adam. You said yesterday you had seen the evidence. Have you, personally, seen more than two?

If you are going to start shouting at me

More than two? Simple question, yes or no?

I don’t expect you to be impolite and abusive towards me.

How much evidence did you see?

We had seen sufficient evidence.

Is that more than two? Is that more than two? That’s a very simple question.

We had seen sufficient evidence.

Have you seen more than two things? Have you seen more than two things? That’s a very simple question. I am recording you. Is that more than two things?

You can record if you like. We had sufficient evidence.

Is that evidence more than one tweet and one comment?

I could…I have got to go I have things to do here

Do you have more than one tweet and one comment?

Hangs up.

I do not claim the 38 Degrees do not have any evidence to show to “justify” removing this petition. But if they do, I find their attitude absolutely astonishing. It seems to me most probable they did so under establishment pressure with no serious consideration of evidence, and zero concern for the 35,000 people – about half of them female – they have now stigmatised as misogynists.


197 thoughts on “38 Degrees Refuse to Release Evidence of “Sexist Abuse” of Laura Kuenssberg

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  • Steve De'Ath

    Oh dear, 38 Degrees, there was I thinking that you were helping to stand up to vested interests. It would seem not?

    • Herbie

      Looks as though 38Degs are working to vested interests.

      The model ought to be clear enough now to anyone really interested in how public discourse is manipulated.

      • Mulga Mumblebrain

        And encouraging the disgruntled to air their grievances also helps identify potential ‘trouble-makers’ for future reference, say as patsies who can plausibly be set-up, given their record of ‘misogyny’ and, of course, ‘anti-semitism’.

    • ASch

      Yep, their integrity is entirely blown with this pull-down under establishment pressure.
      Other petition site options are available.

    • Ben Monad

      Wishful thinking doesn’t unfailingly go reality. But there is that propensity…………

  • Redmist

    Seems like something is being hidden,certainly not a satisfactory explanation from 38 degrees. I signed this petition in the sincere hope that such unshackled bias reporting from the likes of Kuenssberg could be better regulated, and that perhaps the B.B.C could hopefully return to the sort of constructive and credible journalism it was once renowned for. This whole business has a sinister ‘reek’ to it, I would say to 38 degrees, ‘publish or be damned’, too many people signed this petition for varied and valid reasons for it to be simply ignored. Lets see those comments.

    • Mulga Mumblebrain

      Redmist, just exactly when did the BBC produce ‘..constructive and credible journalism’? Since 1979 it has been unrelenting Rightwing agit-prop, growing ever more extreme, petty, and, amazingly, arrogantly presumptuous, as time went by.

  • Mo Bowman

    I support 38degrees but NOT if they obey establishment pressure-I will speak to them re this situation& my DD to them.

  • N_

    @Craig – Don’t be astonished! 38 Degrees are doing what they’re told, and Adam McNicholas is a flunkey. A word to the wise: if you want to hit established power from the left, think twice before using professional lobbyists.

    And that’s what, for all their CIA-stinking references to “people power”, 38 Degrees really are. I wouldn’t touch them with a bargepole.

    There’s a reason why the Mike Danson-owned New Statesman frames 38 Degrees as the “real opposition”. Danson founded Datamonitor and today chairs Progressive Digital Media, basically a business propaganda and intelligence company, working for Big Pharma etc.

    • N_

      If we say Zionists are cunts, they call us anti-Semites.
      If we say a BBC liar is a cunt, they call us misogynists.
      Soon if we say the mayor of London is a cunt, they’ll call us Islamophobes.
      In fact, I must be the new Jack the Ripper just because I use the word “cunt”, right? Never mind that many women I know use the word in the same meaning. But why should we defend ourselves? To defend yourself in the media (and politics) is usually to let the cunts on the other side make the running.

      Almost everyone views David Cameron, the cocky entitlement-exuding Old Etonian cunt, as a cunt. He may fuck pigs and take bribes, but he’d have difficulty putting himself across as a member an oppressed group. (“Bestial pervert” and “bribe-taker” don’t do the job. Neither does “goy”.) So in his case the crime of those who call him a cunt must just be cuntophobia. Something that makes us like Hitler, anyway.

      Fuck 38 Degrees. Fuck all professional lobbyists whether or not they say they’re “non-profit”.

      Trust yourself, Craig.

  • RobG

    Can anyone tell me what’s happened to Natalie Hanman, who took over as Editor of CiF in 2010? Hanman was a supposed strong proponent of reader’s comments. I can’t imagine she’s still at the Guardian?

    • Herbie

      Oh puhleeze…

      She recently tweeted this gibberish, for example:

      https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/12/the-dark-side-of-guardian-comments?CMP=share_btn_tw

      What’s going on here, and more generally in mainstream media, is the creation of a myth.

      The myth is that the mainstream is under attack from vile vicious trolls.

      Repeat it often enough and the myth becomes a meme.

      This completely unsubstaniated meme will then be used to crack down upon free and open exchange and public discourse.

      Craig’s caught them out on this 38Degrees effort, but that won’t undermine the overall meme.

      They’re authoritarians and they don’t like peeps talking back.

      Simple as.

      Edging us closer to outright fascism.

      Where your human rights then.

      • RobG

        Ok, my bad. I should have searched for her on the Twits. Here’s her feed…

        https://twitter.com/NatalieHanman

        I was curious because Hanman, the Editor of CIF, has been remarkably low key about the somewhat dramatic recent changes to the Guardian.

        She always struck me as a good sort.

        In these very dark times we live in it’s easy to forget that sometimes you have to give some people the benefit of the doubt.

        As Editor of CIF I’m sure Hanman will read Craig’s post here, and maybe the comments. I invite her to respond.

        • Chris Rogers

          Rob,

          She’s not involved with CIF is the actual answer, she now overseas membership, so no doubt will face the sack shortly as many are refusing to pay subscriptions to The Guardian for outright propaganda, even the Yanks and people in Australia are up in arms about the hole The Guardian keeps digging for itself, which now looks more like a grave.

          • Mulga Mumblebrain

            Chris, what is known about who, and how, took over the Guardian and turned it into a Rightwing, neo-liberal, neo-conservative sewer?

    • Chris Rogers

      This from her Twitter Account:
      Natalie HanmanVerified account
      @NatalieHanman
      I’m executive editor, membership @guardian

      So Yes, she’s still with The Guardian, unlike 250 peers sacked last month.

  • N_

    Herbie – “Looks as though 38Degs are working to vested interests.”

    Giyane – “No, it looks like something else.”

    What then, in a sentence?

    • giyane

      N_
      “What then , in a sentence?”

      Yes. you are right. On 2nd thoughts, the illustrations I gave show that Herbie’s statement “Looks as though 38Degs are working to vested interests.”” is correct. Another busted flush. Thanks.

      • N_

        No probs, Giyane! I’ve liked your posts here. I totally agree that politics is run by psychos and that our enemies are fucked in the head.

        I’m about to go off for a while. Best wishes to you!

    • Herbie

      I don’t understand what Giyane’s on about neither.

      Mainstream media are the servants of the aims of the political culture.

      Always have been, in varying forms.

      Sure, they can critique on marginal issues to their heart’s content, which make no difference to the overall project but can make them look like they’re indpendent.

  • Chris Rogers

    CM

    You have posted on The Guardian again, your post will be removed promptly, however a full transcript of your post is now on the Guardian thread, as are other details lifted from your site.

    Any mention of Craig Murray or link to this site is virtually automatically deleted – but the truth is out there, even on the egregious latest article in The Guardian

  • John Spencer-Davis

    Don’t be ridiculous. If you disagree with a woman’s political bias you don’t call her a whore unless you are an utter animal. Are you trying to discredit this forum?

  • N_

    OK, last post from me before I leave again.

    I remember when the worldwide web started to take off, in the early-mid 1990s. I remember having to go through CERN to use it. At that time, medics and the Big Pharma that they serve expressed a worry that smelly dirty patient scum might turn up at GPs’ surgeries “clutching printouts from the internet”. Oh what were the poor put-upon medics to do? I mean a member of the public might think a “negative” result of a test meant they were going to die!

    Guess what happened.

    Health forums got set up by Big Pharma. Big business coped fine with the “new democracy” and encouraged it. Same with Web 2.0 – it ain’t damaged our “superiors” one bit.

    I’m not saying no online petition can work. But it’s not just a click a button thing. You’ve got to be damned clever and see the bastards coming.

    • nevermind

      Thanks N_, missed your outright deliberations, don’t disappear, pop in now and then, your opinion counts for much.

  • N_

    Chris, get a clue! What have you got against fat people? If you’re in a row with a fat guy, either keep to the issue and use your argumentative skills, or, if you want to upset him, refer to some characteristic he has that’s bad. There’s nothing wrong with being a woman or fat. For fuck’s sake!

    I would be even ruder to you, but I’m guessing you’re probably quite young.

  • craig Post author

    I have deleted both the comment from “Chris” and the excellent responses. There is no doubt this was a right wing plant and someone will soon be tweeting a screenshot to prove disgusting misogyny on this website.

    • Chris Rogers

      Craig,

      Please reference this link, which contains all comments posted on the original Petition:https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/e83cce2f-9558-4947-b971-3374d1dc1190/BBC-Laura-Kuenssberg-38-degrees-petition-comments.html

      Ms Bates is a lazy journalist who has done zero research, she’s followed a narrative handed to her, including the PR spin from 38 Degrees, which we have established from the Petitioner does not correlate with his FaceBook post outlining what’s actually happened, namely he was forced by the London media circus and named MPs to remove the petition, not withstanding he’s now slandered as a ‘sexist’.

      • Shatnersrug

        Chris,

        I do fear when the establish realise the propaganda no longer works they’ll shift from soft power to hard power and we’ll be living in East German 1971

      • Tom

        This has also been taken down:

        NoSuchBucketThe specified bucket does not existe83cce2f-9558-4947-b971-3374d1dc1190C49A6F76B94B

        I assume it’s been taken down from archive.org too?

  • bevin

    It’s just a matter of personal taste isn’t it. Except for those occasions when you explode and say things that only old soldiers understand.
    I really think that we to allow some people to be prudish and others to be profane. No good purpose served by obsessing over form when content is at issue. It is not as if the person in question was not quite obviously a woman. One could make the argument-trivial though it would be- that not to acknowledge her sex, while insulting her would be to add to the insult.
    The truth is that the lady is being accused of subverting the public discourse, misrepresenting matters of public importance and working for undeclared interests, rather than the people who employ her. Words like whore and cunt don’t begin to describe the criminality of such behaviour.
    And it is time that we said so. It is not she but us who have the right to be angry. Least of all do those prostituting the media in order to thwart the wishes of millions of people have the right to object to the anger their arrogance and treachery naturally arouses.

  • Peter Creek

    As a 38 Degrees subscriber I am disgusted that this petition has been taken down. I will now be considering very carefully whether to continue supporting them. If they’re going to roll over due to such minor pressure then, clearly they haven’t got the balls to fight off misogynistic remarks. Extremely disappointed!

    • Herbie

      Are they completely subscriber funded, or are the globalists throwing a few shillings their way as well?

  • Chris Rogers

    Important update to this Thread and the Story itself: A poster on The Guardian has managed to get a full transcript of all comments posted on 38 Degrees in support of the Petition – the claims by 38 Degrees and The Guardian are spurious, indeed a brief review suggests most comments were/are from concerned persons and not sexist pigs.

    We Deserve to Know:
    https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/e83cce2f-9558-4947-b971-3374d1dc1190/BBC-Laura-Kuenssberg-38-degrees-petition-comments.html

    • John Spencer-Davis

      I have just scanned all these comments. (Something that some idiot choked with laughter over on Twitter when Craig Murray said he had read every single comment. I bet Craig is a quicker reader than I am, and I imagine the Twitter berk uses a finger and moves his lips.) I have found only these which remotely – remotely – could be construed as attacking Kuenssberg for her gender:

      789886
      789905
      790075
      790351
      790499
      790626 (woman)
      790948
      791109 (woman)
      791156 (woman)
      792681

      Most could only be thought to do so by a real stretch. If I have missed any please do let me know. Compare that to the number of comments. I note that 2 of the 3 most vicious ones – cow, witch – are signed by women’s names.

        • Chris Rogers

          JSM,

          Your diligence and that of CM is to be applauded, I’m ashamed that the London media have brandished an innocent young man, one with none of the privilege that they themselves have enjoyed – he’s a photographer – as some kind of evil sexist.

          We have witnessed too many witch hunts of late, this is but another example of the blatant lies and propaganda the London establishment is now undertaking daily to close down any, and all, dissent from a narrative most no longer believe in. Suffice to say, this petition, given the traction it gained within 48 hours, was well on its way to attracting 100,000 signatures from concerned citizens.

          Just ask ourselves this, if the context of the Petition was so wrong, why did it take them four months to close it down, given it was actually hosted on 38 Degrees in the first week of January. Joe Haydon’s faceBook posts to his friends indicates clearly he was chuffed and overwhelmed when the petition reached 25,000 names, only to be defalcated on and slandered by this nations supposed liberal media and unnamed MP’s who should be ashamed of themselves for they really are a disgrace.

  • david lowton

    We should have a petition against 38 Degrees if they don’t come clean and offer proof of misogynistic abuse on twitter. By the way what is the abuse on twitter got to do with the above mentioned petition? I am a contributor to most of 38 Degrees petitions, now I have unsubscribed to the latter and have signed a new online petition with Change.org with reference to the blatant bias reporting by Laura Kuenssberg. WOOPS! Petition now closed https://www.change.org/p/james-harding-bbc-bbc-sack-laura-kuenssberg-over-political-bias-in-the-treatment-of-jeremy-corbyn

  • Louis Edmondson

    I have sent a note to 38 degrees, telling them that I will no longer be supporting their campaigns…despite being a regular supporter for several years. They have lost credibility as far as I am concerned.

  • Tony_0pmoc

    Thank You to Everyone who has published my comments over the last 40 years or so..but tomorrow is going to be a beautiful day…and we might just get our foldaway bikes out of the shed tonight..blow up the tires (with the electric car pump – car’s cig socket) – quick little test round the park in the rain…and sling em…well fold them up actually..one fits on the back seat and one fits in the Boot of Either of My Old British Classic Cars…

    We just might go cycling along The River Thames again in the morning (I know where to Park for Free)

    But I can’t Get No Sleep

    Notice The ” sign ”

    “Faithless – Insomnia – Live at Glastonbury 2002 ”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otLEUwHao_E

    These are the words to the song..commonly known as lyrics. I didn’t write them. I don’t know who did.

    “Deep in the bosom of the gentle night
    Is when I search for the light
    Pick up my pen and start to write
    I struggle, fight dark forces
    In the clear moon light
    Without fear… insomnia
    I can’t get no sleep

    I used to worry, thought I was goin’ mad in a hurry
    Gettin’ stress, makin’ excess mess in darkness
    No electricity, something’s all over me, greasy
    Insomnia please release me and let me dream of
    Makin’ mad love to my girl on the heath
    Tearin’ off tights with my teeth
    But there’s no release, no peace
    I toss and turn without cease
    Like a curse, open my eyes and rise like yeast
    At least a couple of weeks
    Since I last slept, kept takin’ sleepers
    But now I keep myself pepped
    Deeper still, that night I write by candle light
    I find insight, fundamental movement, uh
    So when it’s back this insomniac take an original tack
    Keep the beast in my nature under ceaseless attack
    I gets no sleep
    I can’t get no sleep

    I can’t get no sleep
    I can’t get no sleep
    I need to sleep, although I get no sleep
    I need to sleep, although I get no sleep”

    Tony

  • Herbie

    Anyway.

    Given the Alaistair Campbell precedent.

    Shouldn’t she just resign because she’s become the story?

    I’m sure there are many many other elite projects she could turn her hand to.

  • s tattersall

    Is Laura’ s privileged side of the Kuennsberg ( Koenigsberg) family related to the sonderkommando branch?

  • John D

    Just to let you know I have formally complained to 38 Degrees via their website, saying I will withdraw my future support unless I receive a satisfactory answer regarding your conversation with their Press Officer and why the petition was withdrawn when it had 35,000 signatories. Have just read David Babbs’ piece in the Guardian and he still doesn’t get it.

  • Jennie

    If 38 Degrees made a habit of removing any petitions which included abusive or misogynist comments, I wouldn’t have been so upset by their actions – but they don’t. Of course they don’t police all their petitions – it isn’t their job to.

    I’ve unsubscribed, tweeted them to say so and will be mentioning it on FB too. Meanwhile, where’s the new petition to stop bias in the BBC, particularly but not limited to Kuenssberg? After the recent elections, the female news reporter on Radio 3 mentioned, in tones dripping with disdain, that the Green party candidate had come third in the London Mayor elections. A few seconds later, her smile as she reported UKIP’s success in Wales, was audible. How is this allowed?

  • Chris Rogers

    More evidence on this stick-up, just posted on The Guardian and news to me, but important nonetheless:

    toadalone 45s ago

    Is it “moderatable”, then, to point out that the MP promoting this Kuenssberg “scandal” today at PMQs, Lucy Allan, was found to have fabricated an online death threat against her?

  • Maureen Anton

    This is not what I expect from 38 degrees.
    If they have been lent on to take the petition down, what is the point of them? I won’t be signing any more of their petitions if this is the way they regard 35000 people who signed this one. At least tell the truth about it.

  • R Jones

    38 degrees …. Degrees of truth it seems ! Well that’s your reputation up the swanny …. You now lack any credibility and this is a negative turning point for your organisation … You are ‘holed below the water line’ and sinking … Remember this when you are finished

  • rosemary rimmer-clay

    I am a Quaker- and a feminist. I would never be abusive. I did sign the petition because I was astonished at her bias. I didn’t see any abuse, and feel let down that many 38 degree signers have been badly let down by 38 degrees itself. You 38 degrees need to be strong in the face of establishment pressure, or the people will stop supporting you, and you will be finished- precisely what this government wants!

    BBC bias has to be [and will be, in future] challenged, here and elsewhere- because it damages the BBC\s standing as a reputable national broadcaster, and I am one of many who no longer trust the BBC to be impartial. Look at the long silence over #toryelectoralfraud…We need the BBC to stop being so craven in the face of government bullying and the attacks on the BBC itself…

    • Ba'al Zevul

      I think we’re going to be increasingly reliant on informal sources for our news. We’re stuck at the moment between media with access but no desire for examination of their sources, and bloggers with every wish to scrutinise what their told, and check it, but no access. We need a few more like Craig: people with contacts, who question.

      And that’s your compliment for this month, Craig…

  • Brian Watson

    I have withdrawn my subscription to 38 Degrees on grounds of their disregard for the substantial number of legitimate signatories to the Kuenssberg “petition” . Keep up the good work .

  • Lynda Moore

    What is going on — ? All of this seems very strange. Is it really 38 degrees responding to your reasonable enquiries in this way? It sounds like a friend/comrade giving responses under duress or threat of torture!

    I am also waiting to see the sexist comments which have been so prolific to result in removing this petition.

    I am also still waiting to see the details and evidence of anti-semitic behaviour/ bias, comments, reported as being expressed within the Labor party. I have heard many people criticise Israel’s illegal occcupation of Palestinian land and the ongoing suppression and persecution of the people therin — but I have not heard anyone make anti Jewish statements- quite the contrary!

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