My Metropolitan Police Evidence on Torture and Extraordinary Rendition 1137

This is a transcript of the evidence I gave, at their request, to the Metropolitan Police. I published scans of the witness statements yesterday, and a commenter has kindly transcribed them to make them web searchable. I was interviewed by the Police both at my home and at their headquarters, and it was made very plain to me that not only Sir Mark Allen, but Tony Blair, Jack Straw and numerous officials in the FCO and the Security Services were in the frame. I confess I therefore always expected the Establishment would have the case dropped despite overwhelming evidence.

I first offered this evidence to the Gibson Inquiry, I was treated by that Inquiry as an important witness and Judge Gibson ordered the FCO to give me full access to all documents I saw while Ambassador, to refresh my memory. No. 10 panicked at this and other evidence that Gibson was doing a genuine job, and the Gibson Inquiry was closed down by Cameron with the active complicity of Nick Clegg. I was then told by the Gibson secretariat that the Metropolitan Police were taking over aspects of that inquiry. I was then contacted and interviewed by the Metropolitan Police and gave this evidence.

The Director of Public Prosecutions having corruptly closed down the criminal case, the matter is now purportedly under investigation by the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament – consisting entirely of “trusties” of the security services. They have continually and repeatedly refused requests by me to give evidence. I last heard from them on 15 December 2015, a simple acknowledgement of a receipt of a communication.

As nobody can claim my evidence is untrue due to the amount of documentary report, the Establishment simply ensures it does not get heard by any inquiry or court. When the House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee had hearings into extraordinary rendition, they directly asked seven different witnesses – including Jack Straw – whether I was telling the truth, but they refused to call me as a witness or to accept written evidence from me.

CI Act 1967. 3.9: MC Act I980. ss.5A(3)(a) and SB; Criminal Procedure Rules 2005. Rule 27.1
Age if under 18 Over 18 (if over I3 insert ‘over 18’) Occupation: Development Consultant

This statement (consisting of pages each signed by me) is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully stated anything in it which I know to be false, or do not believe to be true.

I joined the Foreign Office in 1984 direct from University in the ‘fast stream‘ process. I held a number of posts including second secretary in Lagos, then Head of the Maritime section in London and the Cyprus section. Around 1992-l993 I was also head of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) embargo surveillance section both before and after the first Gulf War. Its role was to monitor Iraqi attempts of weapons procurement. I then served in Poland as first secretary in the Embassy and returned to London as deputy Head of the Africa Department, and thereafter in Ghana as Deputy High Commissioner. I was security cleared to Developed Vetted level and because of my earlier work in relation to Iraqi arms embargo l was given extra security clearances enabling me to view other sensitive intelligence material up to including various extra codewords over and above Top Secret. I have never worked for either the Security Service (SYS) or Secret Intelligence Service (SIS). I speak both Polish and Russian.

In August 2002 I took up the role as Ambassador, at the Embassy in Uzbekistan. I was given very little formal pre posting briefing by the FCO and met the outgoing ambassador Chris INGRAM only for about half an hour during which we only discussed a staff issue regarding an embassy member called Chris HIRST. Ihe staff at the Uzbekistan Embassy included a Defence Attache, an assistant, a Deputy Head of Mission, a third secretary, a management officer, consular ofiicer and assistant. My number two was an acting second secretary called Karen MORAN. I didn’t have many staff or much ability to discuss matters with them.

After my arrival in Uzbekistan as part of my role I viewed certain intelligence material originating from Uzbekistan. This material came to me from SIS in London and was sent to them by the CIA via the CIA Headquarters in Washington. It was sent to me if SIS thought it appropriate information I should be aware of. The only person security cleared to see such telegrams were I and Karen MORAN in her role as Deputy Head of Mission (DHM).

I was aware even before I arrived in Uzbekistan that the Uzbekistan security services had a terrible reputation for torture that included for example using boiling water on individuals as well as electrocution. I never whilst in Uzbekistan ever had direct involvement with the Uzbekistan security services, SIS officers came out on liaison visits but I don’t recall who they were or who they met.

Page 2 of 5

Continuation of Statement of Craig MURRAY …………………………………………………………………………………….. ..

In my new role I was proactive in meeting local Uzbekistan people and I had only been there a couple of weeks when I attended a trial of dissidents accused of terrorism. More than one witness tried to change their original account claiming it was made under torture. I found them credible that they were tortured to give a false account. The United Nations special rapporteur on torture came out to Uzbekistan to do a special report and we arranged for torture victims to see him.

The intelligence that was sent to me by SIS at this time concerned me on two grounds; firstly it showed how systematic the torture was by the Uzbekistan security services as the intelligence was coming from tortured detainees. And secondly the quality of the intelligence was inaccurate. I knew these from my first hand experience in Uzbekistan and I knew individual facts could be shown to be false.

I came to these conclusions after about three to four months of being in Uzbekistan. This was due to the fact I had been doing some work around tortured Uzbekistan detainees and I could see links with the intelligence I was seeing. Most of the intelligence didn’t name the detainees but it had similar trends such as Al Qaeda (AQ) membership or attending AQ training camps which wasn’t true. I was aware that my defence attache Colonel RIDOUT had been to one training camp location that was cited in the intelligence reports and found they did not exist. I knew that Uzbekistan was getting money and arms from the United States and I believed the Uzbekistan government were exaggerating the AQ threat in response. I believe this was a view shared by colleagues in the Embassy.

My concerns revolved around the intelligence and the cooperation between the Uzbekistan security services and CIA. I was uneasy about what the US were not doing to stop the torture. I decided something was going wrong and London (the FCO) must have not known about the torture. I asked Karen MORAN who had regular meetings with the US mission in Uzbekistan to ask the US about the intelligence flow from torture and to confirm from the US mission that it in fact was not from torture. Karen told me that the US response she received was that the intelligence was from torture however it was justified in the ‘war on terror‘. This response was possibly from the US Mission political counsellor.

On about 17th December 2002 I wrote a telegram back to London setting out my concerns. I have obtained a redacted version of that telegram under a Freedom of lnformation request I made I produce a copy of which as CJM/l telegram number I47 of I7/I2/2002 at 0345. It was addressed to the permanent under secretary (PUS) Sir Michael JAY as he was the head of the Diplomatic Service and Michel WOOD the Foreign Office legal advisor as it dealt with legal issues. I also sent it to relevant UK Missions (UKMIS) who had interest/deal in torture policy, these included New York, Geneva, Vienna and ‘Organisation Security and Cooperation in Europe‘ (OSCE) of which Uzbekistan is a member. lf you send a telegram on policy it is practice that it is also sent to other UK Missions who have an interest as with this telegram.

I don‘t know how I received a response but I got a message back stating that I could discuss the matters with William ERHMAN during an Ambassadors conference that l was due to attend in London in January 2003. I believe this message originated from Sir Michael JAY and I believe it is back referenced as telegram 323 of 2002 which appears on the next telegram I sent.

In January 2003 I returned as planned to London for a few days and could not get hold of William ERHMAN so the conversation I intended never took place with him. I subsequently returned to Tashkent, Uzbekistan and it was around this time I was aware public concern had just started regarding detainee issues in Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay. I seemed to be the only person within the FCO who was worried about it. I had never done this before by that I mean flagged up these kinds of issues/concerns.

Page 3 of 5

Continuation of Statemait of Craig MURRAY …………………………………………………………………………………….. ..

On 22nd January 2003 I sent another telegram this was addressed to William ERHMAN again I produce a redacted copy that was supplied to me under a Freedom Of Information request I made as exhibit CJM/2 on it there is the back reference 323 which I believe was the response originating from Michael JAY that I previously referred to. ‘The telegram essentially states the same as my first. I did not receive a response to any of the points: this is unheard of because if an Ambassador writes a telegram in relation to a policy matter there is always response. I was frustrated and could not understand why there was no written reply on this policy on torture.

Shortly after this I was asked back to London to discuss the issues I had raised. I can’t recall what method this summons was communicated to me. I believed I was coming back to London to see Sir Michael JAY however I never did see him.

I thought I was in trouble due to the nature of the recall to London and I suspected I was going to be sacked. I returned to London on 6th March 2003 I don‘t recall what dictated the timing but it was two weeks before the war started in Iraq. At that time, with the ‘dodgy dossier‘ going around supporting the war and my concerns regarding the inaccurate intelligence I had seen, the atmosphere was not good at the FC0. It was not the best time to be saying openly that our intelligence was not reliable. A retired ambassador had stated that we should not go to war as the intelligence on Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) was not reliable. From evidence subsequently given in the Chilcott enquiry I believe Sir Michael WOOD had advised Jack STRAW at the time, it was not legal to go to war in Iraq. So all this was going on around my return to London.

I was called into a meeting on the 7″‘ or 8″‘ March 2003 with Linda DUIFFIELD who was the Director Wider Europe (DWE) and my counter signing manager. This meeting took place in her office and she told me Sir Michael JAY wanted to see me but was too busy. With her at the meeting were Michael WOOD and Matthew KIDD who I believe was from MI6 (SIS), he was introduced as being Permanent Under Secretary Department (PUSD) which is a liaison department that deals with SIS. It was a two part meeting with either a private discussion between Linda and myself and then a gmcral discussion with everyone present or the other way around I can’t recall now. She told me that ‘JAY was not pleased I had put things in writing, things like that should not be in writing.‘ In the general meeting with all three she stated Jack Straw had seen my telegrams (CIM/l and CIM/2) and they ‘troubled him and he lost sleep at night over this‘. Also that he had met ‘C’ Sir Richard DEARLOVE and discussed whether, in relation to the ‘war on terror‘ should intelligence from torture be used. Also that Jack Straw made the decision that I should not send over ‘emotional and melodramatic’ telegrams like these and that intelligence and torture were ministerial decisions.

In the general meeting Sir Michael WOOD stated he had looked at the United Nations convention on torture and that it was his legal position that if we didn’t ask someone to be tortured but got intelligence from torture then we were doing nothing illegal.

I asked him about complicity in torture and Article 3 and 4 of the UN Convention on torture. Sir Michael WOOD stated that he didn’t know but Article l6 allowed us to get intelligence from torture but it could not be used in court. Mr KIDD went on to add that intelligence coming from Tashkent was useful to SIS. I told him the intelligence wasn’t true. He disageed with this.

A formal response to my telegrams was read out to me by Linda with everyone present and she told me the response would not be sent as these things were best not put in writing.

Page 4 of S

Continuation of Statement of Craig MURRAY …………………………………………………………………………………….. ..

I produce a copy of the minutes of this meeting again supplied to me under a Freedom of lnformation request I made which 1 exhibit as CIMI3. I do not accept the minutes as a full and accurate account of the meeting. it was not sent to me in draft afierwards for ‘signing off‘ which was practice. It also mentions l was given a revised telegram which I was not. I was shown it but not to keep and it was never sent to me.

Afler this meeting I went back to Tashkent. Later in 2005 I obtained a message dated l4/3/2003 supplied to me under a Freedom of lnfonnation request I made which I exhibit as CJM/4. This indicates Jack Straw saw the minutes of the meeting referred to in exhibit CIM/3. There were hundreds of meetings at the FCO each day and it would be very rare for minutes to be seen by Jack STRAW unless he had previous documents regarding the matter i.e. my original telegrams and an explanatory briefing from Sir Michael Jay or another oflicial. Simon McDONALD was Jack Straw’s number 2 private secretary and Alan CHARLTON was Head of Personnel.

Whilst in Tashkent l was concerned my career was ruined. I had upset my line managers and I decided I wasn‘t going to say anything else as I was extremely concerned about my future.

I was then told that my third secretary Chris HIRST had attacked a blind person in the street with a baseball bat. I had been told by my predecessor that he had been accused of doing something similar before, but that my predecessor had supported him, this was the staff issue I referred to earlier in this statement. I personally had witnessed his verbally violent outbursts in a local bar before. I knew that as a result of this baseball bat incident that he had to go, which he did. After this I then found papers regarding Chris HIRST that had been hidden from me by his partner Karen MORAN and I learnt she had destroyed other similar documents. As a result of this Karen had to go as well.

At this time I was not receiving any replies from London and asked them why they were ignoring me but got no response.

In June 2003 Colin REYNOLDS from the Foreign Office arrived in Uzbekistan ostensibly to find out what was happening at the Embassy with the sudden departure of Karen and Chris. He had been sent out by Alan CHARLTON. All the Embassy staff was seen by Colin and the staff told me that in fact he was asking them not about Chris & Karen as they expected but things about me such as my drinking habits and whether I used prostitutes. The staff were confused and surprised. I let Colin finish the interviews of staff and then l asked him what was going on as it seemed to me that he was investigating me. He told me not to worry and that he had been instructed to investigate allegations raised about me. He would not tell me what those allegations were. He later as I understand reported back to London that the staff supported me and there were no issues. I obtained a copy of his findings dated 26/6/2003 supplied to me under a Freedom of information request I made which I exhibit as CJM/5. This confirms he reported that all the staff supported me. The report has been ec‘d to amongst others Harvey BOWYER of the FCU. This is the internal audit section called the Financial Compliance Unit (FCU) l did‘t know where this fitted into the investigation by Colin REYNOLDS. However a few months later a team fiom the FCU internal audit came to the embassy to go through all our accounts. All they found at the end of their audit was that I owed about $20 for a lunch for which I lost the receipt, this I repaid. It appeared to me that they were plainly out to get me and I thought I had survived: the only criticism of me was the handling of the HIRST matter.

In July after Colin REYNOLDS left I then went on holiday. London then sent out Dominic SCHROEDER from the FCO political Eastern Department who came and interviewed the same staff as Colin Reynolds again after which he came up with some 18 discipline offences against me.

Page 5 of 5

Continuation of Statement of Craig MURRAY …………………………………………………………………………………….. ..

In August I was called back from holiday in Canada to London to see Howard DRAKE the personnel department director. Present at this meeting were Tessa REDMAYNE of the personnel department and Kate SMITH who was my union representative. At this meeting Howard DRAKE asked me to resign and I declined this is detailed in a report he completed dated 27/8/2003 that was sent to me for ‘clearance’. I produce a copy as exhibit CJM/6. During this meeting l was told that if I forgot about Tashkent that I would be offered another ambassadorship, but I declined this. It was at this meeting that I first became aware of the allegations albeit Colin REYNOLDS had previously told me they were nonsense. The source of the allegations was never disclosed to me.

All the disciplinary allegations were false and around this time my security clearance was up for review. My security clearance reviewer contacted me to state my clearance had been passed by him but it had then been sent back to him and he had been put under pressure not to clear me. He said that he was sticking by his recommendation and my clearance was renewed.

l was suspended for four months and sent back to Tashkent and told not to speak to anyone about the outstanding allegations. l was banned from entering embassy buildings and the stress of it all caused my health to collapse. I suffered severe heart and lung problems as a result.

After four months of investigation l was cleared of all l8 allegations: there was a formal hearing in relation to two matters only. These related to being seen with a ‘hangover’ by a local member of staff in Tashkent and secondly misusing an embassy car, l was cleared on both counts and the evidence against me was shown to be rubbish or non-existent.

l was however found guilty of telling someone about the existence of the allegations when I returned to Tashkent for which I was given a final written warning in January 2004.

Later in June 2004 one of the initial telegrams l had written was somehow leaked to the Financial Times newspaper and the Times printed sections of it. This was not done by me and although I denied it I was suspended as a result and in February 2005 I resigned from the Civil Service. I was given six years early retirement severance pay.

I firmly believe that the allegations against me were knowingly false or grossly exaggerated,. and were concocted against me deliberately to silence me after l was the only senior civil servant to enter a written objection to the policy of collusion in torture. As a consequence my career was destroyed and my health permanently damaged.

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1,137 thoughts on “My Metropolitan Police Evidence on Torture and Extraordinary Rendition

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  • Republicofscotland

    “US Democratic presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton says Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Kuwait must stop funding extremists in the region.”

    “An “area that demands attention is preventing radicalization and countering efforts by ISIL (Daesh) and other international terrorist networks to recruit in the United States and Europe, for starters, it is long past time for the Saudis, the Qataris, and the Kuwaitis and others to stop their citizens from funding extremist organizations,” Clinton said in a national security speech in Cleveland, Ohio on Monday.”

    “And they should stop supporting radical schools and mosques around the world that have set too many young people on a path toward extremism.”

    Hilary Clinton has some nerve to come out with that, the US has been funding terrorism covertly for decades now, in South America and the Middle East. The infamous School of America’s camp is a well known example.

    As for Saudi Arabia and the neferious spread of Wahhabism, in my opinion it has been allowed to flourish, because the brainwashed you men, who are then used to carry out iniquitous deeds, in regions around the globe, are beneficial not only to the Saudi cause, but to those who use them to elicit regime changes around the world.

    In my opinion, if Saudi Arabia ever falls foul to it’s powerful Western allies, the Wahhabi schools or Madrassas, would quickly be sought out and closed down, but for now those brainwashed young men akin to programmed products coming off a production line, serve a wicked purpose.

    • giyane

      Like the 9000 tonnes of weapons the US sent to Daesh and Al Qaida in the ceasefire.

      • michael norton


        The FRENCH state prosecutor, François Molins, said that during the negotiations with police, Abballa had said he was a practising Muslim and observing Ramadan and that he had pledged allegiance to the Islamic State leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, three weeks ago. Abballa said he had responded to an Isis appeal to “kill non-believers at home with their families”. He said he had known that his target was a police officer.

      • Republicofscotland


        Yes, I think it has long been suspected that the US has aided and abetted Al-Qaeda, and like the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, who the US backed to help thwart Russia’s conquest of Afghanistan, but then turned against them, in the bogus hunt for Osama bin Laden. The US is using Al-Qaeda to serve a purpose, that puropse is to defeat pro-Assad fighters.

  • Republicofscotland

    Re my Hilary Clinton comment at 19.49pm.

    “Saudi Arabia’s involvement in supporting terrorism stretches from Sept 11 all the way through to ISIS – however, where there is a big, and potentially law-breaking, problem is what Jordan’s official news agency, Petra News Agency, reported on Sunday citing the Saudi crown price, namely that Saudi Arabia is a major funder of Hillary Clinton’s campaign to become the next president of the United States.”

    “As MEE notes, the Petra News Agency published on Sunday what it described as exclusive comments from Saudi Deputy Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman which included a claim that Riyadh has provided 20 percent of the total funding to the prospective Democratic candidate’s campaign.”

    “The report was later deleted and the news agency has not responded to requests for comment from Middle East Eye. However, the deletion took place too late, as the Washington-based Institute for Gulf Affairs managed to capture the report and has re-published the original Arabic Petra report, which quoted Prince Mohammed as having said Saudi Arabia had provided with “full enthusiasm” an undisclosed amount of money to Clinton.”

    I for one would not be surprised if the report was true.

  • Habbabkuk (impeach "President" Nicolas Madiro Moros now))

    Yesterday Resident Dissident wrote the following about Macks:

    “Perhaps I can ask which commenters here of any political perspective actually like Macky? I suspect most of those who you think actually support you find you something of an embarrassment. But lets see.”

    It is noteworthy that up to now not a single other poster has written to say “I like Macky” or “I support Macky” or eben “Macky does not embarrass me”.

    The conclusion must be that Resident Dissident was correct.

    So now you know, Macks 🙂

    Time to work on yourself rather than obsessing about me.

    • glenn_uk

      I did offer some helpful advice only yesterday, but it was dismissed. Heck, I have even offered the same service (free of charge!) to yourself, your faithful Anon1, and multiple others over the years – none of you seem to appreciate the generosity of the deal. I do sometimes wonder why I bother.

      However, now is your chance to break the mould yourself – will you avail yourself of the opportunity?

  • Republicofscotland

    “In 2014, an Instagram post of David D. Ovadia, an Israel Defence Forces (IDF) combat soldier bragged about killing 13 Palestinian children in one day, sparking outrage on social media. Posing with a Barrett .50 caliber sniper rifle, Ovadia tagged a Palestinian woman Sherrii ElKaderi, and wrote:”

    “I killed 13 childrens today and ur next f***ing muslims go to hell bitches.”

    He received a thirty day jail sentence for his actions.

    What does that miniscule jail sentence say about Israel’s alleged position as a fair and democratic nation.? Often bleated in here by you know who? In my opinion it makes a complete mockery of the claim.

    • Jim

      Do you even read the things you post RoS? The guy was an idiotic vile braggart, but he didn’t actually kill 13 children. He was jailed for being a moron and disgracing the IDF with his moronic posting.

      • Ben Monad

        “Do you even read…”

        Projection is a very, very sad disease.

        Can I help?

          • Ben Monad

            Heh. More diffuse projection. Moar plz. Can you duplicate an idiocy? I think so.

        • Resident Dissident

          Projection is a very, very sad disease.

          I agree – all those people calling others trolls, paid agents, shills etc. for some reason spring to mind.

      • Habbabkuk (impeach "President" Nicolas Maduro Moros now))


        Congratulations – you have identified a dishonest technique often used by the Excellences and their hangers-on.

        It consists in giving a link to add spurious authenticity to whatever the Eminence is raving on about.

        The Eminence assumes that very few people will bother to open the link and read it carefully

        Because if they do, they will find that the link does not bear out what the Eminence wrote. Indeed, in many cases it even says the opposite.

        It is a dishonest technique but it is possible that some of the more stupid Excellences are not being dishonest, it may simply be that they lack reading and comprehension skills.

  • Habbabkuk (impeach "President" Nicolas Madiro Moros now))

    @ Mr Roderick Russell

    I believe you may have forgotten to answer a couple of rather important questions I asked you the other day. You will recall that they are intended to elicit answers which would help clarify exactly what your problem was and, therefore, to possibly absolve you from the charge of displaying clinical obsession.

    Here are the questions again, for ease of reference:

    “So you were blacklisted simply because you left the company – have I got that right?

    And you’ve previously told us you’ve been hounded from pillar to post – was that also just because you left the company?

    Let’s assume for a moment that you’re not a simple obsessive : what would you say your former company was hoping to achieve by blacklisting and hounding you? What was their objective?”

    Looking forward to hearing from you soon, Roderick.

    • Ben Monad

      Let’s take a moment to review the Hab zeitgeist.

      Too much pepper flakes for emphasis

      Too few employable entries with a grain of import.

      Medium temperament with maximum pretend.

      Far too nasty imbibing of his Craig Murray freedoms.

      Far too few humorous anecdotes.

      Excessive self-congrats without a foundation.

      Shall I continue? Much more is coming by way of wishes.

      • Alcyone: Any one for a googly?

        Ben, is Monad deliberately chosen to rhyme with gonad?

        I know you work as hard as pocket-cricket to spin your language.

        • Ben Monad

          Why don’t you educate yourself and look the fucking word up?

          Are you trolls immune to learning by your own methodology?

          Can you do a vertical smile?

          • Ben Monad

            That’s what I thought.

            There is nothing more consistent than a coward and his weak dialogue.

      • Alcyone: United States of Nitwits

        “Far too few humorous anecdotes.”

        Ben when was the last time you cracked a joke or said anything funny here?

        The last time I heard you say something funny was some years ago, when you came on here and asked Komodo in American, “How’s it hanging?”. And that too you will reluctantly agree was rather unwitting?!

        Anyway how are your chads hanging in the primaries, or is that just for the final event? What’s your prediction, if you were a psephologist?

        Please reply with something funny, will you?

        • Ben Monad

          Did you actually look up the meaning of monad?

          Ah. Then I haven’t underestimated you.

          • Alcyone: The Joy of a Kick up an American Arse

            I didn’t know

            (a) that I had to look up monad to discover that it rhymes with gonad 😉

            (b) that I had taken allegiance to the American constitution and follow your instructions, so fuck right off, pal!

          • Ben Monad

            And gonad will be all you git from it. But I do appreciate your flaccid attempt at humor.

            Hab should take lessons from your comedic gifts. Jim will be glad to suck on them.

          • Alcyone: The Joy of a Kick up an American Arse

            You should stop telling people what to do Ben. Else wear your ball-guard and bend over for another kick. You’ve earned enough to last you this year. So, you can stop begging for more.

    • giyane


      What was their objective? No objective other than intimidation of truth-seeking.

      We humans know full well what you oversized sea-pork-sausages are motivated by.
      Once Faust has sold his soul to the devil, the Lodge, the Friends of Israel, he/ she is irrevocably bound for hell. There is no objective other than obedience to evil in return for power and fame.

      The deal, as you well know, is that you act as hasbara troll, and they threaten the blog-owner with being bumped off if he doesn’t house you.

      Intimidation of truth-seeking pays the bills of blubbered sea-mammals with trailing sea-weed coloured balls.

      The odd redeeming hour of small talk with his ageing mother, and his / her donations to charity will not redeem the spiral into the inferno.

      • Alcyone: Don't bash Afghani hash

        Guano, have you been taking creative-writing lessons from our weed-waving friend?

        You have successfully managed to make yourself completely indecipherable!

  • Ben Monad

    When Bullies and other cowards are confronted they retreat, post haste.

    It’s rather sadistic of me to enjoy their simple-mindedness. It’s not politically correct to chide the disadvantaged, but then, I don’t give a shite about PC.

    • Alcyone: United States of American Heroes

      Alright Ben, you win. You are a Hero and we are Zeros. Which is why you poor debauched Americans with chips on both shoulders are trigger-happy around the World?

      We know you uncouth lot are not PC, so your own declaration is hardly surprising!

      But I am disappointed, I thought you were a weed-smoking counter-establishment revolutionary. You certainly don’t come across as one here and now. Did I blow your cover?

      • Ben Monad

        Heh. It’s rather simple to seem heroic when your standard for such is typing rather unpolished thoughts and declaring them to be gold. Maybe you are thinking of the nutrient power of human shite. That’s gold of a sort. You are welcome to claim such power.

        • Alcyone: A kick up the Arse only produces Shit

          [ Mod: Caught in spam-filter ]

          Ben, can you please stop corrupting Guano?

          Still waiting for you to come up with something ‘humorous’. Isn’t that where this whole thing started. Com’ on then, come up with an old one.

          God, you are boring. I am praying for sleep.

  • RobG

    Orlando: there’s no real mobile phone footage. There’s no tv footage of dead or injured people. There’s no real footage of anything.

    The mainstream media just wheel straight into action: non-stop headline coverage, and within minutes it’s known who the shooter is, and they’re an agent for ISIS. The mainstream media do not question anything, as should be normal, and just parrot stuff put out by security services and the government.

    Ladies and gentlemen, you live in a police state, and like most police states it will butcher its own citizens without blinking an eye.

    If you fall for stuff like the Orlando shootings you are really, really stupid – and deserve everything that’s coming to you.

    An AR-15 semi-automatic weapon, alleged to have been used in the Orlando attacks, would have had to have been reloaded numerous times in order to have killed or injured more than 100 people (an AR-15 can have a 30 round clip, but that’s rare). Anyone familiar with firearms will tell you that an AR-15 is not quickly re-loaded; Why wasn’t the shooter overpowered by people in the club?

    We’re being attacked by terrorists! Well, the Munchkins continue to believe this rollocks, all egged-on by the Presstitutes, not to mention the army of internet trolls: black is white, down is up, etc, etc.

    • Ben Monad

      I think the evidence will show that more than 2/3 of the victims died at police hand of hysteria and fear for themselves.

      • lysias

        When the Russian authorities took the school in Beslan that terrorists had taken over, I think the authorities were responsible themselves for shooting a lot of the victims.

    • lysias

      To successfully shoot over 100 people, he probably fired considerably more than one round per person hit. He would have been spraying on semiautomatic.

    • fedup

      Mark did you use any of the trigger words?

      Did you get a message your post is being moderated (paraphrasing)?


      This is a very interesting article about Omar Mateen:

      FBI investigators investigated Mateen, who was born in New York, for 10 months. They introduced him to confidential informants, spied on his communications and followed him

      Note the notion of informants ought to be understood as:

      individuals posing as members of terrorist organizations who approach suspects, coerce them into planning and preparing for terrorist attacks, before finally aiding the FBI in the suspect’s arrest before the attack is finally carried out.

      This kind of practice used to be illegal and classified as “entrapment” but post the Bu$h and bLiar world of the neoconartists anything goes these days.

      • Ben Monad

        What am I, invisible? Didn’t i already address the untraceable enabling of the mentally unstable?

        KEEE-RICED !

      • mark golding

        Sorry I am nor aware of trigger words – no nothing about moderation – I did get a duplicate post message when I attempted to post a number of times.

      • Habbabkuk (impeach "President" Nicolas Madiro Moros now))

        “A very interesting article..”

        From – as Fedup carefully avoids mentioning upfront – that extremely dubious website with the supremely pretentious name “”

        Why am I not surprised?

    • RobG

      This is one of the most bollocks stories I’ve seen recently, and is all planned to tie-into the Orlando stuff (please don’t link to France 24, which is even more biased than the BBC).

      You cretins swallow all these stories without them having any journalistic value whatsoever. The so-called ‘mainstream media’ just parrot what the government and totally out of control security services tell them.

      The government and the media are totally corrupt and are a complete and utter joke. They are total scum.

      The sad thing is, a majority of morons still believe them.

      • Habbabkuk (impeach "President" Nicolas Madiro Moros now))

        Spoken like a true supporter of terrorism.

  • Mark Golding

    [ Mod: Sorry Mark, caught in spam-filter ]

    I am assiduously pissed off with aberrant US tyranny; sick to the back teeth of American oppression and domination.

    The US now claims that any website, anywhere in the world, using a US-originated domain name i.e. is subject to US law, thus allowing the American government to globalise their legal hegemony. The most notorious recent case was the illegal US intelligence operation to take down Megaupload and arrest Kim Dotcom in New Zealand earlier this year and now more recently Sheffield student Richard O’Dwyer is currently wanted by the US on copyright infringement charges after he set up a website called, a sign-posting service to websites where people could download media and containing no copyrighted material hosted on his website.

    Richard is now faced with extradition to America using the Blair conceded asymmetric UK-US extradition treaty of 2003, a one-sided piece of bull-shit that allows the US to extradite UK citizens for offences committed against US law, even though the alleged offence may have been committed in the UK by a person living and working in the UK and there being no reciprocal right for a US citizen to be extradited & tried and sentenced by a UK court.

    This situation together with more surveillance laws (, I regard as hideous and grim which without mass British umbrage and calls for change, English folk will slide further into the illusion (and delusion) of freedom and democracy that is in reality a Matrix existence where the elite mafia completely, totally and utterly control every form, condition and facet of our lives and our children’s children lives too boot.

    Permit me to ask are you a culpable father and mother pledged to improve the lot of future generations or on the other hand perhaps you don’t give a damn?

    • michael norton

      Girl stabbed in France by man trying to ‘make sacrifice for Ramadan’

      The girl’s assailant told a witness that he was a Muslim. He was immediately detained by police at the scene of the crime and later told officers that he was obeying voices in his head that had ordered him to make a sacrifice for Ramadan, the holy Muslim month of fasting that began on June 6.

    • giyane

      Mark, I read somewhere a comment by a US man that he had never had any complaints from man or woman about his sexual performance.

      For a people so completely self-involved and devoid of consideration for others, what would be the point of complaining? My sister married the son of a British Indian colonial, who long after retiring would still chortle to himself that ‘ We were Gods’.

      I don’t believe the US has achieved the same Pharaohonic level of arrogance as the British at the end of 250 years of Raj. But given time ….

      • Ben Monad

        “I don’t believe the US has achieved the same Pharaohonic level of arrogance as the British at the end of 250 years of Raj. But given time ….”

        Thank you for saying…

        I am no defender of hubris and.or Nationalism. Being of native american descent, I think I have more cause for complaint than those who lost the fortune of Colonization as well as that portion of Empire.

        But the bigotry smearing all America is the low-snark of well-heeled boys.

        • Alan

          Ben Monad “But the bigotry smearing all America is the low-snark of well-heeled boys.”

          So is that why the Republic of Lakotah is complaining about US genocide?

          Would you describe the late, great, Russell Means as a “well-healed boy”?

          For example:


          Only 14% of the Lakotah population can speak the Lakotah language.
          The language is not being shared inter-generationally. Today, the average age of a fluent Lakotah speaker is 65 years.
          Our Lakotah language is an Endangered Language, on the verge of extinction.
          Our Lakotah language is not allowed to be taught in the U.S. Government schools.

          Don’t worry, I’ve got the Onondaga bookmarked too. When will they ever get their land in New York State back, and the mess at Onandoga Lake cleaned up?

        • Alcyone: American conditioning and Red Herrings

          “I am no defender of hubris and.or Nationalism. Being of native american descent, I think I have more cause for complaint than those who lost the fortune of Colonization as well as that portion of Empire.”

          Oh, a minute ago you were being as arrogant as a untravelled redneck and declaring your not being PC.

          Now we are hiding behind a claim of being a native American (how pure is that claim?). Anyway its not Red Indian, but a Red Herring. You are still a product of crap America and conditioned as such and you produce Hillary and Trump as your best offerings. You are no longer capable of doing any better.

          • Ben Monad

            I answered last night while you were hiding, but mods are so protective.

            You may have a love/hate relationship with the ‘lash’.

            If you could just stick around for our little discussions, you might find I’m a lot cheaper than that Dominatrix you are so fond of.

      • mark golding

        You totally missed the point Jim – maybe that is par for the course – ne l’est pas?, in fact on 13 March 2012, Theresa May, the UK Home Secretary, approved the extradition of O’Dwyer to the United States.

        My point is regardless of deals on appeal (Richard’s parents are still traumatised to this day) a forum bar amendment to the Extradition Act was included in the Police and Justice Act 2006, but has not been brought into effect by this treacherous neocon government and further compounded by .com .org .net etc global hegemony which stinks and is certainly not in the spirit of Internet freedom.

        The open Internet is central to citizen’s freedom to communicate, share, advocate and innovate.

        Powerful interests want to censor free speech, block the sharing of information (esp. Twitter), hinder innovation and control how Internet users get online.

        All too often, people in power are making decisions behind closed doors about how the Internet should operate.

        Do you want children to play out their lives in the Matrix?

        • Jim

          Yeah, she approved it, but then by late 2012 the whole thing had been settled by the deferred prosecution agreement without the need for extradition. And he’s now an IT consultant and racing driver. So you’re wrong about this being some sort of ongoing nightmare for him. Didn’t you read the link I posted? Matrix my arse.

      • Habbabkuk (impeach "President" Nicolas Madiro Moros now))

        Well debunked, Jim.

        Mark Golding needs that done to him more often.

      • Ben Monad

        But I do tire of the lack or reading comprehension…Oh! and the Colonial Bigotry!

        • Ben Monad

          Nit-pickers alert. The ‘r’ key is near the ‘f’ key. It’s called a ‘typo’ and if we had the ability to edit, this problem (human error…blecccch) MIGHT just be a thing of the past.

        • Alan

          If it’s any consolation I can just remember us getting kicked out of Suez when POTUS stated “We’re not having any more French and British colonialism”.

          Now there’s American bases all over the world, including Britain. We recognise colonialism when we see it. POTUS calls it “being the world’s policeman”.

  • Macky

    A see a lot of comments have been culled, shame that whetever criteria was used hasn’t yet or perhaps doesn’t extend to including the shameful offensive racism directed to Ben by “Alcyone”; too bad Ben that you’re not an Israeli or of the Hebrew Faith, because as we know, not all bigoted abuse is treated equally.

    • michael norton

      Nigel Farage has claimed he is a turkey and is voting for Christmas, by that he means he wants to loose his well paid job as an M.E.P.

      Recently Neil Kinnock that slag trougher has been pleading with the U.K. electorate to vote remain.

      As seems likely will will vote in a week to leave,
      does Neil Kinnock get to loose his massive E.U. pension,
      if the U.K. is no longer in the E.U.?

      • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

        Bo, he wouldn’t lose his pension.

        But quite a few British senior officials would have to pack their bags (with a severa ncescheme).

  • fred

    I see Nicola Sturgeon is being accused of negative campaigning, “Project McFear” they are calling it in the press.

    What Nicola is now realising is that when you are arguing for the status quo it is your only option, the leave campaign can make all sorts of promises how things would get better, remember Salmond’s fantasies of oil wealth making us all rich. All remain can do is say things would stay the same if we remain and get worse if we leave.

    The Yes campaigners, including one not a million miles away, must have known this in the Scottish referendum yet they used it to lambast campaigners for the Union anyway. Now they reap what they sowed.

    • michael norton

      A man has died after being Tasered by police who were called following serious concerns about his welfare and behaviour, a watchdog has said.

      The Independent Police Complaints Commission said officers were called to Llanelli, Carmarthenshire, to deal with the man, who appeared to be injured.

      He became unresponsive after being stunned with a Taser on Tuesday evening and was later pronounced dead.

      Dyfed-Powys Police referred the case to the IPCC, which is investigating.

      Emergency services were called to the Morfa area of the town by a concerned member of the public.

      The IPCC said police officers “engaged with the man” before it is understood a Taser was discharged.

      “The man became unresponsive and was subsequently pronounced dead,” a spokesman added.

      Looks like WALES is a police state.

      • michael norton

        Project McFear

        Nicola Sturgeon has warned that the UK voting to leave the European Union could present the risk of a “right-wing Tory takeover”.

        The SNP first minister said the referendum was “on a knife-edge”, with some polls suggesting Leave is leading.

        She said a Brexit could “leave Scotland at the mercy” of “the most right-wing Tory government in modern history”.

        Scottish Vote Leave dismissed Ms Sturgeon’s comments as “Project McFear” and a “desperate bid to scare voters”.

        And Conservative MSP Ross Thomson, who backs Leave, said Ms Sturgeon’s comments were “absolutely extraordinary”.

        Opinion polls have suggested a swing towards the Brexit vote in recent days, with just over a week to go until the referendum on 23 June.

  • michael norton

    Britain is having a Ref to ask us if we wish to sling our hooks from the hated E.U.

    I wonder how France is doing remaining in the hated E.U.
    what is their unemployment 10 – 11%
    The UK unemployment rate has fallen to 5%, the lowest since October 2005, according to official figures.
    I think the French invented the E.U.
    has it done them any good, their country is chaotic.

    • Dave Lawton

      “I think the French invented the E.U.
      has it done them any good, their country is chaotic”

      You are right invented by a ghost.
      President Giscard d`Estaing played a large part in bringing in the European Monetary System. EMS
      said he had been inspired by “the ghost of Charlemagne”

        • michael norton

          The assassination of the chief of the municipal police remains an enigma

          March 21, 2007, Christian Marshall, 59, was found dead at his home larded 18 stab wounds. This man with the imposing stature was murdered by two killers he knew, because he has opened his door. He was stabbed at his desk and even beaten while trying to flee. A genetic fingerprint was found in the house, but investigators from the judicial police of Versailles failed to identify.
          “The problem is that we made the victim a hero from the investigation, so that investigations have also revealed a series of facts that could be serious mobile to eliminate it, a precise source close to the case. This is a major handicap, because today no one’s interest to explain themselves to the police. “The investigators attempted to verify rumors accusing Christian Marshal extort shopkeepers of the town, selling personal and confidential information to which he had access as head of the municipal police, or being associated with crooks. “It would have opposed these little thugs, thinking they would not dare to attack a police officer before being victim of a settling of accounts,” suggests the source.
          But no material element never came corroborate these assumptions counsel Marshal family, Mr. Jean-Pierre Versini-Campinchi sweep of his sleeve: “The police have no evidence to support the scenario a villainous mobile. All this is only gossip and lies. Christian Marshal was a honesty and unflinching honesty. ”
          another mobile one time considered by investigators, love, “I think there’s a woman behind the stabbing of hard,” said a judicial source. But again, there is no proof. The police had found the phone number of a woman that Christian Marshal had concealed under a false name. He was a friend and confidante, not a mistress.
          Finally, the political track seems to move away definitively. This case however left traces in the mind of the deputy mayor of Chambourcy, Pierre Morange (UMP), which a few months after the murder of Christian Marshal had asked a gun permit, fearing for his life. Recently he wrote to the prefect of Yvelines, Anne Bocquet because it feels threatened. His fears were this time related to his participation in a “commission on the financing of the hospital,” he said … The last hope of the investigators is the identification of this mysterious genetic fingerprint, if the case Marshal join the procession of unsolved crimes.

          • michael norton

            The uncle of Claire Schutz is Pierre Morange, best friend of Christian Marshal
            Pierre Morange (UMP), which a few months after the murder of Christian Marshal had asked a gun permit,
            fearing for his life.

            Of course the knifing to death of a police chief and his wife in the same area of France nine years later
            may be just co-incidental but the murder by multi knife wounds at his home by Islamist killer is quite a co-incident?

    • michael norton

      Why can’t these ex-government types live off their pensions,
      after all Neil Kinnock manages O.K. on £300,000 a year pensions paid for by the little people.

      • michael norton


        In February 2006, Smith was taken to hospital after collapsing at his Rochdale home. He had been weakened by dehydration and low potassium levels.[26]

        In 2008 the New Statesman accused him of improper conduct in his connection with the company Turner & Newall (T&N), which was based in his constituency, and was once the world’s largest manufacturer of materials using asbestos. In the summer recess of 1981, Smith wrote to Sydney Marks, head of personnel at T&N, informing him that EEC regulations were coming up for debate in the next parliamentary session. A House of Commons speech he delivered was almost identical to one prepared for him by the company. “The public at large are not at risk” he said in his speech of a substance then long known as lethal if inhaled. A year later Smith revealed he owned 1,300 shares in the company. Interviewed in September 2008 by the BBC’s local news programme, he responded to the claims he had helped cover up the dangers of asbestos as “absolute rubbish”. After he died, Smith was described by the journalist Oliver Kamm in his Times blog as “a corrupt, mendacious mountain of flesh”.

        how shocking

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