My Metropolitan Police Evidence on Torture and Extraordinary Rendition 1137


This is a transcript of the evidence I gave, at their request, to the Metropolitan Police. I published scans of the witness statements yesterday, and a commenter has kindly transcribed them to make them web searchable. I was interviewed by the Police both at my home and at their headquarters, and it was made very plain to me that not only Sir Mark Allen, but Tony Blair, Jack Straw and numerous officials in the FCO and the Security Services were in the frame. I confess I therefore always expected the Establishment would have the case dropped despite overwhelming evidence.

I first offered this evidence to the Gibson Inquiry, I was treated by that Inquiry as an important witness and Judge Gibson ordered the FCO to give me full access to all documents I saw while Ambassador, to refresh my memory. No. 10 panicked at this and other evidence that Gibson was doing a genuine job, and the Gibson Inquiry was closed down by Cameron with the active complicity of Nick Clegg. I was then told by the Gibson secretariat that the Metropolitan Police were taking over aspects of that inquiry. I was then contacted and interviewed by the Metropolitan Police and gave this evidence.

The Director of Public Prosecutions having corruptly closed down the criminal case, the matter is now purportedly under investigation by the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament – consisting entirely of “trusties” of the security services. They have continually and repeatedly refused requests by me to give evidence. I last heard from them on 15 December 2015, a simple acknowledgement of a receipt of a communication.

As nobody can claim my evidence is untrue due to the amount of documentary report, the Establishment simply ensures it does not get heard by any inquiry or court. When the House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee had hearings into extraordinary rendition, they directly asked seven different witnesses – including Jack Straw – whether I was telling the truth, but they refused to call me as a witness or to accept written evidence from me.

WITNESS STATEMENT
CI Act 1967. 3.9: MC Act I980. ss.5A(3)(a) and SB; Criminal Procedure Rules 2005. Rule 27.1
Age if under 18 Over 18 (if over I3 insert ‘over 18’) Occupation: Development Consultant

This statement (consisting of pages each signed by me) is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully stated anything in it which I know to be false, or do not believe to be true.

I joined the Foreign Office in 1984 direct from University in the ‘fast stream‘ process. I held a number of posts including second secretary in Lagos, then Head of the Maritime section in London and the Cyprus section. Around 1992-l993 I was also head of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) embargo surveillance section both before and after the first Gulf War. Its role was to monitor Iraqi attempts of weapons procurement. I then served in Poland as first secretary in the Embassy and returned to London as deputy Head of the Africa Department, and thereafter in Ghana as Deputy High Commissioner. I was security cleared to Developed Vetted level and because of my earlier work in relation to Iraqi arms embargo l was given extra security clearances enabling me to view other sensitive intelligence material up to including various extra codewords over and above Top Secret. I have never worked for either the Security Service (SYS) or Secret Intelligence Service (SIS). I speak both Polish and Russian.

In August 2002 I took up the role as Ambassador, at the Embassy in Uzbekistan. I was given very little formal pre posting briefing by the FCO and met the outgoing ambassador Chris INGRAM only for about half an hour during which we only discussed a staff issue regarding an embassy member called Chris HIRST. Ihe staff at the Uzbekistan Embassy included a Defence Attache, an assistant, a Deputy Head of Mission, a third secretary, a management officer, consular ofiicer and assistant. My number two was an acting second secretary called Karen MORAN. I didn’t have many staff or much ability to discuss matters with them.

After my arrival in Uzbekistan as part of my role I viewed certain intelligence material originating from Uzbekistan. This material came to me from SIS in London and was sent to them by the CIA via the CIA Headquarters in Washington. It was sent to me if SIS thought it appropriate information I should be aware of. The only person security cleared to see such telegrams were I and Karen MORAN in her role as Deputy Head of Mission (DHM).

I was aware even before I arrived in Uzbekistan that the Uzbekistan security services had a terrible reputation for torture that included for example using boiling water on individuals as well as electrocution. I never whilst in Uzbekistan ever had direct involvement with the Uzbekistan security services, SIS officers came out on liaison visits but I don’t recall who they were or who they met.

Page 2 of 5

Continuation of Statement of Craig MURRAY …………………………………………………………………………………….. ..

In my new role I was proactive in meeting local Uzbekistan people and I had only been there a couple of weeks when I attended a trial of dissidents accused of terrorism. More than one witness tried to change their original account claiming it was made under torture. I found them credible that they were tortured to give a false account. The United Nations special rapporteur on torture came out to Uzbekistan to do a special report and we arranged for torture victims to see him.

The intelligence that was sent to me by SIS at this time concerned me on two grounds; firstly it showed how systematic the torture was by the Uzbekistan security services as the intelligence was coming from tortured detainees. And secondly the quality of the intelligence was inaccurate. I knew these from my first hand experience in Uzbekistan and I knew individual facts could be shown to be false.

I came to these conclusions after about three to four months of being in Uzbekistan. This was due to the fact I had been doing some work around tortured Uzbekistan detainees and I could see links with the intelligence I was seeing. Most of the intelligence didn’t name the detainees but it had similar trends such as Al Qaeda (AQ) membership or attending AQ training camps which wasn’t true. I was aware that my defence attache Colonel RIDOUT had been to one training camp location that was cited in the intelligence reports and found they did not exist. I knew that Uzbekistan was getting money and arms from the United States and I believed the Uzbekistan government were exaggerating the AQ threat in response. I believe this was a view shared by colleagues in the Embassy.

My concerns revolved around the intelligence and the cooperation between the Uzbekistan security services and CIA. I was uneasy about what the US were not doing to stop the torture. I decided something was going wrong and London (the FCO) must have not known about the torture. I asked Karen MORAN who had regular meetings with the US mission in Uzbekistan to ask the US about the intelligence flow from torture and to confirm from the US mission that it in fact was not from torture. Karen told me that the US response she received was that the intelligence was from torture however it was justified in the ‘war on terror‘. This response was possibly from the US Mission political counsellor.

On about 17th December 2002 I wrote a telegram back to London setting out my concerns. I have obtained a redacted version of that telegram under a Freedom of lnformation request I made I produce a copy of which as CJM/l telegram number I47 of I7/I2/2002 at 0345. It was addressed to the permanent under secretary (PUS) Sir Michael JAY as he was the head of the Diplomatic Service and Michel WOOD the Foreign Office legal advisor as it dealt with legal issues. I also sent it to relevant UK Missions (UKMIS) who had interest/deal in torture policy, these included New York, Geneva, Vienna and ‘Organisation Security and Cooperation in Europe‘ (OSCE) of which Uzbekistan is a member. lf you send a telegram on policy it is practice that it is also sent to other UK Missions who have an interest as with this telegram.

I don‘t know how I received a response but I got a message back stating that I could discuss the matters with William ERHMAN during an Ambassadors conference that l was due to attend in London in January 2003. I believe this message originated from Sir Michael JAY and I believe it is back referenced as telegram 323 of 2002 which appears on the next telegram I sent.

In January 2003 I returned as planned to London for a few days and could not get hold of William ERHMAN so the conversation I intended never took place with him. I subsequently returned to Tashkent, Uzbekistan and it was around this time I was aware public concern had just started regarding detainee issues in Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay. I seemed to be the only person within the FCO who was worried about it. I had never done this before by that I mean flagged up these kinds of issues/concerns.

Page 3 of 5

Continuation of Statemait of Craig MURRAY …………………………………………………………………………………….. ..

On 22nd January 2003 I sent another telegram this was addressed to William ERHMAN again I produce a redacted copy that was supplied to me under a Freedom Of Information request I made as exhibit CJM/2 on it there is the back reference 323 which I believe was the response originating from Michael JAY that I previously referred to. ‘The telegram essentially states the same as my first. I did not receive a response to any of the points: this is unheard of because if an Ambassador writes a telegram in relation to a policy matter there is always response. I was frustrated and could not understand why there was no written reply on this policy on torture.

Shortly after this I was asked back to London to discuss the issues I had raised. I can’t recall what method this summons was communicated to me. I believed I was coming back to London to see Sir Michael JAY however I never did see him.

I thought I was in trouble due to the nature of the recall to London and I suspected I was going to be sacked. I returned to London on 6th March 2003 I don‘t recall what dictated the timing but it was two weeks before the war started in Iraq. At that time, with the ‘dodgy dossier‘ going around supporting the war and my concerns regarding the inaccurate intelligence I had seen, the atmosphere was not good at the FC0. It was not the best time to be saying openly that our intelligence was not reliable. A retired ambassador had stated that we should not go to war as the intelligence on Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) was not reliable. From evidence subsequently given in the Chilcott enquiry I believe Sir Michael WOOD had advised Jack STRAW at the time, it was not legal to go to war in Iraq. So all this was going on around my return to London.

I was called into a meeting on the 7″‘ or 8″‘ March 2003 with Linda DUIFFIELD who was the Director Wider Europe (DWE) and my counter signing manager. This meeting took place in her office and she told me Sir Michael JAY wanted to see me but was too busy. With her at the meeting were Michael WOOD and Matthew KIDD who I believe was from MI6 (SIS), he was introduced as being Permanent Under Secretary Department (PUSD) which is a liaison department that deals with SIS. It was a two part meeting with either a private discussion between Linda and myself and then a gmcral discussion with everyone present or the other way around I can’t recall now. She told me that ‘JAY was not pleased I had put things in writing, things like that should not be in writing.‘ In the general meeting with all three she stated Jack Straw had seen my telegrams (CIM/l and CIM/2) and they ‘troubled him and he lost sleep at night over this‘. Also that he had met ‘C’ Sir Richard DEARLOVE and discussed whether, in relation to the ‘war on terror‘ should intelligence from torture be used. Also that Jack Straw made the decision that I should not send over ‘emotional and melodramatic’ telegrams like these and that intelligence and torture were ministerial decisions.

In the general meeting Sir Michael WOOD stated he had looked at the United Nations convention on torture and that it was his legal position that if we didn’t ask someone to be tortured but got intelligence from torture then we were doing nothing illegal.

I asked him about complicity in torture and Article 3 and 4 of the UN Convention on torture. Sir Michael WOOD stated that he didn’t know but Article l6 allowed us to get intelligence from torture but it could not be used in court. Mr KIDD went on to add that intelligence coming from Tashkent was useful to SIS. I told him the intelligence wasn’t true. He disageed with this.

A formal response to my telegrams was read out to me by Linda with everyone present and she told me the response would not be sent as these things were best not put in writing.

Page 4 of S

Continuation of Statement of Craig MURRAY …………………………………………………………………………………….. ..

I produce a copy of the minutes of this meeting again supplied to me under a Freedom of lnformation request I made which 1 exhibit as CIMI3. I do not accept the minutes as a full and accurate account of the meeting. it was not sent to me in draft afierwards for ‘signing off‘ which was practice. It also mentions l was given a revised telegram which I was not. I was shown it but not to keep and it was never sent to me.

Afler this meeting I went back to Tashkent. Later in 2005 I obtained a message dated l4/3/2003 supplied to me under a Freedom of lnfonnation request I made which I exhibit as CJM/4. This indicates Jack Straw saw the minutes of the meeting referred to in exhibit CIM/3. There were hundreds of meetings at the FCO each day and it would be very rare for minutes to be seen by Jack STRAW unless he had previous documents regarding the matter i.e. my original telegrams and an explanatory briefing from Sir Michael Jay or another oflicial. Simon McDONALD was Jack Straw’s number 2 private secretary and Alan CHARLTON was Head of Personnel.

Whilst in Tashkent l was concerned my career was ruined. I had upset my line managers and I decided I wasn‘t going to say anything else as I was extremely concerned about my future.

I was then told that my third secretary Chris HIRST had attacked a blind person in the street with a baseball bat. I had been told by my predecessor that he had been accused of doing something similar before, but that my predecessor had supported him, this was the staff issue I referred to earlier in this statement. I personally had witnessed his verbally violent outbursts in a local bar before. I knew that as a result of this baseball bat incident that he had to go, which he did. After this I then found papers regarding Chris HIRST that had been hidden from me by his partner Karen MORAN and I learnt she had destroyed other similar documents. As a result of this Karen had to go as well.

At this time I was not receiving any replies from London and asked them why they were ignoring me but got no response.

In June 2003 Colin REYNOLDS from the Foreign Office arrived in Uzbekistan ostensibly to find out what was happening at the Embassy with the sudden departure of Karen and Chris. He had been sent out by Alan CHARLTON. All the Embassy staff was seen by Colin and the staff told me that in fact he was asking them not about Chris & Karen as they expected but things about me such as my drinking habits and whether I used prostitutes. The staff were confused and surprised. I let Colin finish the interviews of staff and then l asked him what was going on as it seemed to me that he was investigating me. He told me not to worry and that he had been instructed to investigate allegations raised about me. He would not tell me what those allegations were. He later as I understand reported back to London that the staff supported me and there were no issues. I obtained a copy of his findings dated 26/6/2003 supplied to me under a Freedom of information request I made which I exhibit as CJM/5. This confirms he reported that all the staff supported me. The report has been ec‘d to amongst others Harvey BOWYER of the FCU. This is the internal audit section called the Financial Compliance Unit (FCU) l did‘t know where this fitted into the investigation by Colin REYNOLDS. However a few months later a team fiom the FCU internal audit came to the embassy to go through all our accounts. All they found at the end of their audit was that I owed about $20 for a lunch for which I lost the receipt, this I repaid. It appeared to me that they were plainly out to get me and I thought I had survived: the only criticism of me was the handling of the HIRST matter.

In July after Colin REYNOLDS left I then went on holiday. London then sent out Dominic SCHROEDER from the FCO political Eastern Department who came and interviewed the same staff as Colin Reynolds again after which he came up with some 18 discipline offences against me.

Page 5 of 5

Continuation of Statement of Craig MURRAY …………………………………………………………………………………….. ..

In August I was called back from holiday in Canada to London to see Howard DRAKE the personnel department director. Present at this meeting were Tessa REDMAYNE of the personnel department and Kate SMITH who was my union representative. At this meeting Howard DRAKE asked me to resign and I declined this is detailed in a report he completed dated 27/8/2003 that was sent to me for ‘clearance’. I produce a copy as exhibit CJM/6. During this meeting l was told that if I forgot about Tashkent that I would be offered another ambassadorship, but I declined this. It was at this meeting that I first became aware of the allegations albeit Colin REYNOLDS had previously told me they were nonsense. The source of the allegations was never disclosed to me.

All the disciplinary allegations were false and around this time my security clearance was up for review. My security clearance reviewer contacted me to state my clearance had been passed by him but it had then been sent back to him and he had been put under pressure not to clear me. He said that he was sticking by his recommendation and my clearance was renewed.

l was suspended for four months and sent back to Tashkent and told not to speak to anyone about the outstanding allegations. l was banned from entering embassy buildings and the stress of it all caused my health to collapse. I suffered severe heart and lung problems as a result.

After four months of investigation l was cleared of all l8 allegations: there was a formal hearing in relation to two matters only. These related to being seen with a ‘hangover’ by a local member of staff in Tashkent and secondly misusing an embassy car, l was cleared on both counts and the evidence against me was shown to be rubbish or non-existent.

l was however found guilty of telling someone about the existence of the allegations when I returned to Tashkent for which I was given a final written warning in January 2004.

Later in June 2004 one of the initial telegrams l had written was somehow leaked to the Financial Times newspaper and the Times printed sections of it. This was not done by me and although I denied it I was suspended as a result and in February 2005 I resigned from the Civil Service. I was given six years early retirement severance pay.

I firmly believe that the allegations against me were knowingly false or grossly exaggerated,. and were concocted against me deliberately to silence me after l was the only senior civil servant to enter a written objection to the policy of collusion in torture. As a consequence my career was destroyed and my health permanently damaged.


1,137 thoughts on “My Metropolitan Police Evidence on Torture and Extraordinary Rendition

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  • Alcyone: Barbarians at the gates

    How many young Afghans would give an arm and a leg to leave the Taliban behind and go and live in the US of A, no matter how violent that country (America, and here I include psychological violence), is!

    Of course behind the good Taliban remain Pakistan and it’s utterly evil ISI. Not to mention the sickos, Saudi Arabia and their filthy money. God gave oil to many of the wrong guys. Of course, in this country we’ve managed, even excelled, at frittering it away. This island nation would’ve sunk in the Thatcherite days if it hadn’t been for oil. And today it’s financial services that has us by our balls and ovaries.

    I’m all for reclaiming our country out of Europe and making a new start of putting men (yes JSD, women too) and materials together and finally getting kicked into the 21st century.

    • Herbie

      “I’m all for reclaiming our country out of Europe”

      Ooooh.

      Ain’t that a bit nationalist.

      Fred won’t be pleased.

      • Alcyone

        Give up Herbs, It’s all too subtle for you.

        Btw what does your guru Chomsky have to say about the Islamisation of Europe?

        And also btw don’t forget Fred was on the winning side–Scotland staying in the Union. And that is how it will remain.

        Now stop persisting on bullying Fred; it just erodes your credibility.

        • Herbie

          Hmmm.

          You don’t think that a Brexit will put some pressure on the Union?

          Do you know what you think.

          • Alcyone: Hmmmm x 2/No limit

            It is best to cross bridges when we get to them, but mark my words.

            And give credit to Fred for his good judgment, particularly given the oil prices.

          • Alcyone: what does your guru Chomsky have to say about the Islamisation of Europe?

            Are you avoiding? Or do you have to go look it up?

            Anyway, good night and swet dreams about an independent Scotland

          • Herbie

            Fred’s argument against Scottish independence was based on his hatred of the term nationalism, which even Chomsky didn’t apply to Scottish independence.

            He’s fixated and obsessed by it, digging up whatever he can find to slay the beast of nationalism.

            Sancho Panza.

            But nationalism has got nothing to do with it.

            Scottish independence is simply a function of Scotland’s very different economy not wanting to be dragged in directions inappropriate to it by England’s financial services economy.

            And that’s the split in the world as well.

            Productive economies against bankers.

          • Herbie

            Haven’t a clue what he says.

            But the Islamisation of Europe as you call it, is an arrangement with Turkey to resettle primarily Kurds who are a nuisance to his plans.

            The Germans have discussed this issue at length in their media.

            Hardly a secret, in Germany or anywhere else in Europe.

            Is it only becoming an issue in UK media now?

  • Mark Golding

    Orlando shooting – Another person known to the intelligence services.

    Annie Machon gives us an important insight which I have highlighted in a grab of her post here:

    At the time, as the news was breaking, I was somewhat puzzled about what I could contribute – surely this was just another ghastly massacre by the usual gun-toting crazy that America seems to spawn so regularly? After all, it seems that the Second Amendment is the last right standing from the US constitution, after all the others have been eviscerated as a result of the “war on terror” and the social friction caused by the financial melt-down of the US economy?

    However, with a little thought on a mellow European Sunday, I could see a number of threads coming together, which I explored during the interview. I would like to develop some of them further in this article.

    At the time I was interviewed, few hard facts had been confirmed about the shooting – merely a conservative estimate of the number of dead and wounded, and the fact the gunman had been killed. Everything else was pure speculation. That did not stop much of the Western media from jumping to conclusions – that this must be an ISIS-inspired attack and therefore Muslim terrorism, by our current Western definition.

    I have a problem with this current usage. When working as an intelligence officer with MI5 in the 1990s – at the height of the religious civil war being waged between the Protestants and the Catholics in Northern Ireland, our working definition was that “terrorism” was the use of violence to achieve political aims. So “terrorism” has never been a purely Muslim-originated concept, no matter how the USA has chosen to define it since 9/11.

    The reason I am making this rather obvious point is that the USA, particularly, has always engendered some rather unsavoury domestic “terrorist” groups, motivated by Christian or cult fanaticism – think the Branch Davidians, or the Christian fundamentalists murdering doctors and blowing up abortion clinics, or white supremacists terrorising black communities or blowing up FBI offices such as the Oklahoma bombing of 1995, which was initially blamed on Middle Eastern terrorism. If that is not the use of violence to achieve political aims, then our intelligence agencies need to change the definition of terrorism.

    As the shootings in the Pulse nightclub in Florida specifically targeted a LGBT crowd, it is just as feasible that the gunman could have fundamentalist Christian beliefs that urged him to target this community as some ISIS-inspired jihadi. After all, we have seen similar attacks in the UK, with the London nail bomber targeting gay nightclubs in 1999.

    Yet the former is, to this day, widely seen as a mass killing, a “rampage shooter” or a madman, and treated as a criminal, whereas a Muslim committing the same acts for similarly bigoted reasons is automatically deemed to be a terrorist. And we all know that “terrorism” is a unique form of “eviltude” that immediately exposes the suspect to greater legal penalties at the very least and assassination at the worst end of the scale, US citizen or not.

    Terrorism is a crime – pure and simple – and it should be treated as a crime. Muslim suspects of such crimes should not be kidnapped, tortured, held in isolation for years, or subject to military tribunals with no real right to defence, any more than Christian, atheist or any other suspects should be. Nor should specifically “Muslim” terrorism be the excuse used to strip away all our basic and hard-won civic freedoms and human rights in our own countries, yet that is what has been happening in the unending “war on terror”.

    The UK went through this debate in the 1980s and 1990s – at the height of the Provisional IRA and Loyalist paramilitary bombing campaigns across the UK – which was another religious-based terrorist war, as I mentioned before. It also – at least from the PIRA side, received the bulk of its funding from the American Irish diaspora. In fact, despite the peace process in Northern Ireland signed with the Good Friday Agreement in 1998, this funding from America only finally dried up in the aftermath of 9/11.

    And what of the third point in the title – the mental health issue? I mention this because there was a recent case in London of a knife-wielding man frenziedly attacking commuters in an underground railway station last year. The reporting at the time declared that he had been shouting “this is for Syria” – as he attacked his fellow travellers. At the time everyone assumed he was another radicalised jihadi carrying out a lone wolf attack. Indeed, even people at the scene seemed convinced. One witness cried out “You ain’t no Muslim, bruv“, a heartfelt sentiment that went viral over social media.

    This story was headline news in the UK at the time. The trial recently reached its conclusion, and it now appears that the perpetrator had serious mental health issues. These may have latched onto jihadi terminology, but the motivation was not terroristic.

    The guy probably needed an earlier intervention by health professionals, but he slipped through the cracks. That does not make him a terrorist though – no matter what he said in his frenzy – and yet this conclusion certainly did not get the front page headlines the initial attack received.

    Let us also look at the so-called “lone wolf” attacks that have happened across Western countries over the last few years – in Canada, London, Australia, the USA, Denmark – as well as the Paris and Brussels attacks. Many of the protagonists were already on the radar of the Western intelligence agencies, but because they are drowning in a tsunami of information garnered for the mass surveillance of us all, these crucial nuggets of real intelligence were swamped.

    Even worse, it appears that many of the people subsequently fingered as the perpetrators had already been approached by the intelligence agencies, as appears to be the case in Florida too.

    So, how does this all come together? There is not doubt that genuine psychopaths or sadists are attracted to terrorist as well as criminal gangs to give free rein to their tendencies – ISIS is an absolutely horrifying example of this. But the ideology of such groups can also attract from a distance the mentally fragile, who can become useful idiots or delusional followers, or vulnerable individuals who can even be manipulated by law enforcement. Add into the mix fundamentalist religion, cult, or racial supremacy beliefs and it all gets too messy, too fast.

    And yet…. all these groups use terror to achieve their goals, but only a few are deemed to be terrorists rather than criminals – and we all know now that anyone labelled a terrorist faces far higher penalties than these other categories of crime.

    Intelligence agencies are there to protect our national security – ie our nation’s integrity and its very existence. As I have said for many years now, such threats include imminent invasion, as Britain faced during the Second World War, or global annihilation as we all faced during the Cold War.

    The random attacks of terrorist – or criminal groups or mentally ill people – cause trauma to the country and the communities in which they occur, but they do not threaten our country’s very survival.

    We need to clarify our thinking urgently, both around the definitions applied to such crimes and to the proportionality of the response we make. This will allow us to preserve and strengthen the concept of the rule of law and the notion of democracy under which we all hope to live.

    Thank-you Annie – Much love.

    • Alcyone

      Thank you for what exactly Mark? A long-winded piece with no particular revelation?

      I’d also be rather more private about coveying my love, rather thanleaving it all over the place, as it risks becoming disingenuous!

      • bevin

        On the contrary, Alcyone, as the piece I posted below points out, Annie is very perceptive in seeing that there are clear links between the CIA manufactured ‘jihadism’ that appeals to these lone wolves, madmen who claim just before dying that they are agents of Qaeda or ISIS, and the evangelical protestantism so prevalent in the USA. Those like the Oklahoma City bombers, the Branch Davidians and numerous other terroristic militias and gunmen who were the terrorists de jour of the pre 9/11 era.

        • nevermind

          Thanks Mark G, for posting Annie’s missive.
          Everything about the Orlando killing sounds wrong and desperate.
          The media is desperate to pin this on ISIS, it seems that any incident is now being used to make out its ISIS, our proxy in Syria, or Putin’s Russia.

          First, the attacker apparently was interviewed three times about ISIS and his allegiances,support or other for those fakes.
          -well, if he worked as a security in a defences contractors he would be, being a Muslim these sort of ‘checks’ in the US are the done thing, normal.
          One of his past mates was interviewed on Radio 4 saying that he had problems with his first marriage, that he was beating his wife.
          -Why, I asked myself, would a young man with a wife and children beat up his wife, he had a secure job? what happened in his past, was he in effect swinging both ways, was he in the closet?

          Why would such a simple possibility not even mentioned? because he is a Muslim? because it does not fit into our agenda’s, perceptions and propaganda goals?

          Did the FBI monitor his computer like they do with so many of their interviewees? They’ve form and its known.
          -How did he pick his target? was he present in the club before?

          Then we are subjected to some US snitch fury on radio four who makes out that ‘these gunmen can walk into our schools and shoot up our kids’.

          This is outrageous, because one single incident of many committed by white bored/mad/psychologically flawed white teenagers with ACCESS TO DADDYS GUNS.

          This is another NRA rifle association induced killing, those who campaign for more guns on the streets are responsible for this massacre.

          The news increasingly sounds like Goebbels spits, the BBC is a propaganda mouthpiece for NATO and its pathetic grey men in the background, those who will run first when the shit hits the fan.

          where is anonymous when you need them to rattle the cage?

    • Mark Golding

      The US must win in Syria.

      The Syrian center stage has unfolded a ruse encompassing the terrorist group ISIS. From my own early 80’s experience ISIS/ISIL is a proxy ‘army’ created by British intelligence based on knowledge gained from the war to remove Northern Ireland from the United Kingdom and to bring about an independent republic enclosing all of Ireland – .ISIS is organised by the CIA and funded by the Saudis.

      Clearly ISIS is the mariage de raison for America in Syria and whose pursuit is to annul the forces of the Syrian government, Hezbollah and Quds without breaking the mutable thread with Russia developed by John Kerry after the abortive bribe attempt by Bandar Bush.

      • giyane

        The US will never win in Syria. They have triggered a worldwide revulsion at state-deceit, state-terror, state propaganda, state-destruction of infrastructure, state-removal of all the things a state stands for.
        This goes across all nations, religions, social classes, political ideologies.

        If the US has for many decades been a pariah state, it is now seen universally as a pirhana.

  • bevin

    Not only known to the Security Services but a long time employee of G4S
    The following from The Angry Arab puts the matter of homophobia among wahhabis into perspective. Asad AbuKhalil points out that the homophobia of these ‘jihadists’ is largely borrowed from fundamentalist christian evangelicals:

    “Shooting in Florida: Christian homophobia and Islamist homophobia in the West
    “There is no question that Islamism in Western societies has been influenced by the tone and themes of Christian fundamentalism, namely in the issue of homophobia. I have noticed this back in 1993, in the aftermath of the World Trade Center bombing. I had read the speeches of the “blind cleric”, `Umar `Abdul-Rahman, and noticed that his rhetoric borrows from the rhetoric of Christian fundamentalist kooks in the US, especially his pernicious homophobia. He was far more concerned with homosexuality than I read in the rhetoric of Islamists back home. Christian and Islamist and Jewish fundamentalists in Western countries often share bigotry and misogyny and often work together on “moral” issues. I also have written back in 1993 about Homosexuality in the history of Ararb/Islamic civilization and I note that what passes in today’s world as “Islamic issues” is often importation of Western Christian victorian values. Modern Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia, for example, has element of Christian puritanism that have been alien to mainstream Islam. You could get away with poetry in the 9th and 10th century in Baghdad or Damascus which could get you beheaded in today’s Saudi Arabia. So Islamists in the US, I argue, are influenced by the rhetoric of Christian extremists. We should be concerned over homophobia wherever it comes from and if you surf the US channels you will find homophobia to be pervasive on Christian channels. That should have raised alarm a long time ago. I should also remind you that Western countries when they occupied Middle East lands imposed their Christian rigid homophobia on the region by imposing the codification of criminalization and categorization of homosexuality (See Joseph Massad’s Desiring Arabs on that). Middle East media have a role to play: but not a single Arabic newspaper, OTHER THAN AL-Akhbar of Lebanon, combats homophobia and writes sensitively about gays and lesbians (which is ironic because Western media wrongly refer to Al-Akhbar as “Hizbullah paper” when Hizbullah is not in any way opposed to homophobia). The media of the “moderate Arab governments” are complicit in creating a climate of hostility against gays and lesbians and they still routinely refer to gays as “sexual deviants” but that never bothers US embassies which raise hell if they encounter articles critical of Israel.

    “PS Of course, I don’t know anything about his ideology but I am here accepting (too quickly?) the assumption of US media. ”

    All of these crimes are the result of imperialists employing mercenaries, crudely re-labeled as islamists, to pursue geo-political objectives. Muslims are horrified by these caricatures of their faith dreamed up by Orientalists in the employee of Washington.

    • Loony

      I was wondering how long it would be before I read the kind of argument that you have presented. You have put me out of my suspense in about the kind of time frame I was expecting.

      If I understand correctly the latest shootings are a product of Islamic homophobia which itself is a product of Christian fundamentalism. In order to maintain the integrity of this argument it is surely necessary to introduce to the wider public the concept of Siderodromophobia.

      Apparently this is a word used to describe a fear of trains and is necessary in order to explain the Madrid train bombings and the London tube bombings. I am not familiar with the technical “phobic” terms to describe a fear of rock concerts, Christian churches in Pakistan, restaurants, off duty soldiers, Nigerian schoolgirls, Kenyan shopping centers,and commercial airliners.

      I fear that there may be too many unusual phobic prefixes in order for this strategy to gain wider purchase in the public mind. I am also unaware of any fundamentalist Christian groups who habitually rail against trains. Perhaps the Westboro Baptist Church could be inveigled into providing a useful quote.

      Either way you have your work cut out to maintain the intellectual viability of this line of argument, so I will leave you to it.

  • glenn_uk

    I have to admit to not inconsiderable disappointment at the lack of any argument on the EU referendum issue on this blog.

    John Major said last weekend that this is much more important than a General Election, and I agree – it’s the most important issue of our time where the opinions of ordinary people (rather than the Establishment) will significantly sway events for the entire world, for generations to come.

    I would certainly like to see the issue argued here. Otherwise, I fear, it is being assumed that those likely to favour Brexit are simply racist morons who can barely read anyway and are impervious to reason. This dismissive arrogance is the single reason a Brexit is now on the cards. One might equally well argue that Remainers are neo-cons, corporate stooges, huge fans of Blair and Cameron, and will unquestionably follow every instruction of the US President.

    Craig – you stated that no further posts would issue from you until after the referendum. I sincerely wish that you reconsider, and actually argue for the case you favour – just as you did in the Scottish Independence referendum.

    • giyane

      Since the EU referendum is only a distraction from the main global issue of USUKIS neo-colonising the Middle East, and it is totally irrelevant anyway because all the existing deals will remorph back into place after Brexit, it’s good to see the Robin Hood of this blog stitched up inside a stag, breaking into Nottingham castle with his bow and arrow.

      Bullseye! Bullshit! Don’t take your eye off the apple for one second. The apple is US hegemony by Centcom of the Middle East awkward mob, i.e the Muslims.

      Will they be sold out by Daesh and Al Qaida. I don’t think so. Daesh and Al Qaida goin to spend a long time rotting in the Sherriff’s dungeons.

      • nevermind

        All good questions Rob.
        I was near your place last week and talked to a few expats and French. The expats are miffed because nobody considers or interviews them at all.

        The Breton merely waved his arm and said ‘boeuf’, so what, just leave. One comment was that the Stalag two fence in Calais would disappear and border controls for tourists be sharpened up /take far longer. No more free travel for us.
        Now Cameron raised the issue of pensions and that no mechanism has been agreed, because nobody is talking anymore bar the hyperbole lies and innuendo that is coming out.

        The majority of British are of Anglo Saxon decent, the immigrated between 600AD and now from all over Europe, settled here, shared their abilities and inventions. In the 14th century we were trading all over Europe, from Konstantinopel to Bergen and Kiev, the Baltic, North sea, and the Mediterranian, the Hanse was the first international trading association in Europe from which most of the other exploits and histories derived. We are part and parcel, integral to the EU.

        Brexit means distance, misunderstandings and possible confrontation over issues in future, not cooperation a la Norway or Switzerland.
        Some 1.5 million Irish people live here and our borders could become EU borders, what is their opinion.
        We have heard much from those want to leave, but those EU nationals who already made the EU a multicultural reality and live in each others countries have had not much say whatsoever.
        We also had many wars in Europe, well not during the last 60 years when the statutes of Rome and the mismanagement of Commissioners ran the EU, but thats down to our party politicians and their self serving agendas, not us. If we, the voters, would be asked some more and had the choice of commissioners, are not faced with some appointed yes man, the development today would have looked different.

        What is becoming much clearer is that the EU will have to spend some money on its very own security, as NATO can’t really be trusted anymore to do the job. Europe is not going to be rail roaded into a nuclear war because some military industry paid NATO stooges are up for it.
        Time to get some control over these freaking nutjobs, publicise their rabid self and make the industrial military complex the laughing stock it deserves to become.
        They have bled economies dry with their fear creation, complicity and underhand arming of all sides.

        HAVE YOUR FREAKING WAR IN ALASKA, you nutters, not here Europe is not your warbitch.!

        • Loony

          You seem to misunderstand a basic fact. No-one cares what Europe or Europeans think. You will do exactly as your US masters instruct you to do. Sure you are free (for the moment) to write empty slogans, but in terms of policy you will execute instructions received from Washington.

          If Washington orders you to support Ukrainian Nazis then you will support Ukrainian Nazis
          If Washington orders you to place combat troops on the Russian border then you will place combat troops on the Russian border.
          If Washington orders you to host large numbers of migrants with unknown backgrounds then you will obey
          If Washington orders you to reduce interest rates to zero irrespective of the economic damage caused then you will obey.
          If Washington orders you to impose sanctions on Russia then you will impose sanctions on Russia.

          Do you understand? Hopefully not, Washington prefers it that way. If you do understand then you will either be smeared or ignored.

    • Jim

      There was some discussion of the subject recently Glen, I remember posting a link to Yanis Varoufakis giving his strong support for remain, ‘taming the monster’ being his memorable sound-bite. There is an excellent conversation between Paul Mason and Varoufakis (hosted by the Guardian) on YouTube I’ll find the link to. Again, Varoufakis is passionately for ‘in’ but gives far more detail in this conversation for his reasons. Good stuff!

      • glenn_uk

        Hello Jim – that must have occurred while I was away (unless I just missed it). A few notable comments here and there is all very good, but why are we not having a full discussion on this hugely important subject? I thought that was what this blog is for.

        Varoufakis also gave an interesting talk on R4’s “Start The Week” a month or so back.

        What I’m really missing is input from the blog host, who has a huge amount of experience and insight into international affairs. He made a short statement a while back that said, more or less, that staying in would be for the best, and there would be no more discussion until after the referendum – a position I find difficult to understand, particularly given the huge amount of coverage and argument in favour of independence at the Scottish referendum.

        Personally, I’m exceedingly ambivalent but ultimately feel we should leave.

        • Jim

          I can’t remember offhand Craig’s reason for being reluctant to have the subject up as one for discussion, it does seem strange though.
          After listening to lots of opinions, I’m definitely a remainer myself. I’ve got a horrible feeling the vote could very easily go the other way though.

          • glenn_uk

            It looks like LEAVE is the most likely outcome right now. There is a horrendous line-up of money-grubbers, war criminals, crooks and liars (not to mention the Establishment itself, but I repeat myself) urging us to vote REMAIN, and the highly unattractive actions of an elitist, corporate/bankster and power-mad executive in the EU which gives little cause to REMAIN.

            Given the LEAVE camp is quite well populated by older people, who actually bother voting rather than merely holding a vague opinion, and the gathering momentum of the LEAVE campaign, we should not be surprised if we get out. Simply dismissing those expressing deep dissatisfaction as uneducated idiotic racists is not a convincing argument.

          • fred

            “I can’t remember offhand Craig’s reason for being reluctant to have the subject up as one for discussion, it does seem strange though.”

            Too many people with good memories around.

            Oh how they lambasted Labour for sharing a platform with the Conservatives.

          • glenn_uk

            “Oh how they lambasted Labour for sharing a platform with the Conservatives.

            Indeed – if we wanted an explanation of what Cameron meant with his campaign song “We’re all in it together”, there it was! It showed the neo-con agenda was faithfully being supported by all parties, they were all Establishment stooges, and certainly not to be trusted.

          • Jim

            You mean money grubbing neo-con war criminals like Yanis Varoufakis? You mean you’re on the side of cuddly social justice advocates like Gove, Farage and Johnson? Oh, I see the logic now. ?

          • fred

            It’s good that David and Nicola are singing from the same hymn sheet, we’re better together, both in Britain and in Europe.

          • glenn_uk

            It is true, there are deeply unpleasant characters to be found on either side of the fence. Many decent ones too. However, Fred highlighted the danger of sharing a platform with particularly loathsome individuals – the stupidity of Labour (“New” or otherwise) sharing a bed with the filthy Tories over the Scotland independence referendum, is what undoubtedly cost them the last general election.

  • BDS Now !

    Its OK if we allow in a million more turkish fishnchip sellers (and three million more dregs of East European/Ukrainian society), the main thing as Fallon said is to get Parliament to bomb assad, in aid of our cousins in Israel. Out government is more busy working towards Lord Astors agenda and narrative. We can always import half a million filipinos to run the NHS to cater for all the sick old greeks and like who have descended upon England for treatment, the main thing is to set aside £2b to bomb assad. The chosen have taken over this country and are running it towards their ends, the proof is staring at us in the face – murdoch/green have been feeding on our press freedoms/pension funds in broad daylight with complete impunity as they are fully complicit with the son-in-law and tribesman cameron.

    The national debt was £800b (even after £300b spent on rescuing the banks in 2008) when the reptilians took over, IT IS £1800 BILLION TODAY, only 6 years later – billions transferred to Eastern Europe to get the Poles to bring down putin who stands in the way of eretz shitsrael – we have even had the devil himself satanyahu invited to 10 Downing !!

  • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

    MODS

    Are you really going to do nothing about “BDS Now!” and his hateful posts?

    Whether he is genuine or, as Spencer-Davis speculated, an agent provocateur?

    I realise you might not be able to block him but at least you could delete his posts?

    **********************

    PS – always surprised that no one else on here seems to object to him.

    • D-Majestic (Floreat Epona!)

      Well I guess many contributors object to your own presence still being tolerated here. One of the wonders of modern life, indeed. You exhibit neither learning nor empathy. Nor any knowledge of cars.

    • nevermind

      shut up Habby, youb are an idiot for even trying to deny the truth. BDS now has it just right, as hard as you might try and wipe our eyes here.

      Have you not realised yet that you are merely being owned here, go see to your Schickse In Tel Aviv Moishe.

      • Anon1

        “BDS now has it just right”

        I’m glad we now have it in writing that Nevermind agrees with the views of hardcore anti-Semite and Holocaust denier, English Knight / BDS Now.

        • nevermind

          Anon, you opinion does not conflate to others get that into your thick head, what you think of others is as skewed as a kebab served by Boris.

        • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

          Absolutely, Anon.

          Calm persistence will always flush out the haters in the end.

          • Herbie

            Certainly flushed you out long ago.

            So much so that you’ve had to be banned a few times, suspended and heavily moderated.

    • oblivious

      Quit whining and ignore him like I try to ignore you. Constant appealing to moderators exposes you for the puerile specimen you are. Over sensitivity to criticism of Israel does not mean the critic is an anti-Semite no matter how many times you accuse them . Grow up!

      • oblivious

        Where did I say I agreed with him? It seems you are adept at distortion and down right lies but it’s people like you as well as Hababbkuk who, because of your constant accusations of anti-Semitism actually make it much easier for real anti-Semites. You and your blind approval are the real problem and despite your love affair with Israel, you do much more damage than good. No matter the overwhelming military supremacy Israel has, it’s slowly losing support because of its policies, not the irrational conclusion that everyone is becoming anti-Semitic.

      • glenn_uk

        Don’t be so silly. One is not in agreement by default. What is it with Israel-first stooges and their constant attempts at smearing others with this weak guilt-by-association BS?

        • Anon1

          Nevermind is in agreement. And considering just how long “English Knight has been around now, we have to look at the failure to condemn by other posters.

          I excuse your good self and Ba’al, amongst one or two others.

  • Alan

    Propaganda & Engineering Consent for Empire

    The manipulation of public opinion through suggestion can be traced back to the father of modern propaganda, Edward Bernays, who discovered that preying on the subconscious mind was the best way to sell products people don’t need, and wars people don’t want.

    Abby Martin interviews Dr. Mark Crispin Miller, professor of Media Studies at New York University.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7HmFH-Wo1s

    • michael norton

      Are the children of immigrants more likely to become murderers than the actual immigrants?

      • Alcyone: Who is updating Islam, carried into 21c kicking and screaming?

        Excellent question Michael. From what I have observed, I would say so. Many of these immigrant families harden their ‘faith’ to a greater degree in their adopted lands than they would at home; perhaps they are insecure in ‘diluting’ their ‘identities’. The children oft will grow up poorly adjusted and in the profusion of confusion, which is their conditioning from their prevailing immediate environment.

        Besides, the original immigrants, generally of very modest means, came to create a better future and had to earn their keep. Their children grow up with a sense of entitlement.

        At any rate, the only Muslims I trust are ones who appreciate a good breakfast of bacon and eggs. Even though I am reverting to being a vegetarian, nothing to with religion. For context, I reject every organised religion. As K said, you cannot organise the Truth.

        Our march of life as a Type Zero Global Civilisation continues, regardless of extraordinary advances in Technology. That will remain for the foreseeable future.

        • Ba'al Zevul

          …the only Muslims I trust are ones who appreciate a good breakfast of bacon and eggs.

          Now try this for size:

          “…the only Jews I trust are ones who appreciate a good breakfast of bacon and eggs.”

          Not that you’d be so antisemitic as to do so. But hey, why not?

          • Alcyone: Who is updating Islam, carried into 21c kicking and screaming?

            Agreed Ba’al, you’re not exactly being very original here, as this was enshrined, indeed in anticipation, in my comment that I (consistently) reject ALL organised religions. Probably, they are dangerous for one’s mental health and, if not, undoubtedly a major, predominant factor to man killing man and constant fucking conflicts around the globe, decade in, decade out.

            But the conversation I am trying to address is the Islamisation of Europe and Saudi Arabia’s role which for some strange reason has been stealthily escaping the radar for some decades now.

          • nevermind

            Hmm, both like bacon and eggs for breakfast?, does that mean their religions are very closely related?…….
            or would that be closely related breakfast choices?

          • Ba'al Zevul

            Missing the point, Alcyone Free Headline Here. Which is that you can make all the stupid generalisations about Muslims that you like, but make one about Jews and you’re in deep shit with the thought police. Irrespective of your personal views.

            Nevermind, I lived in a Jewish area of London for a while, and oan au pair working for one Jewish family told me that most of the Jewish households in the street started the day with a hearty repast of bacon and eggs. That was before weird breakfasts became trendy, of course. And I doubt it affected their trustworthiness one way or the other.

          • fedup

            Don’t mention these mere facts!!!!

            Also not mentioned; the fact that he was born and bred in the US of A has also no bearing on any of the events!!!!

            It is the darn Muslims that we all should be hating because the semites hate them and how dare the world to be so antisemi…. not to hate these hated Muslims? There should be a law against it!!! Just read the unconscious drivel of the keyboard offence units spamming this board, as in proof.

            It is sickening to see these specimens pouring rank hatred on Muslims and then taking the umbrage in case of any perceived slight against the “chosens”.

            Meanwhile back at the ranch all those heterosexuals getting bombed to oblivion in Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan, Libya, ………….. not a fuck given! But a few gays getting it in the neck, is minute to minute coverage, and the pontifications of it is the end of the world and everyone hates gays and so forth …… Identity politics at it’s best, leave the substance alone and stick to the narrative, and leave the oil line plans untouched!!!!

        • Loony

          What a disgusting set of photographs no-one wants to see pictures like this.

          Are you someone else with comprehension difficulties? The question invited people to comment on the differences between 1st and say 3rd generation muslim immigrants. It had nothing to do with non migrating Americans. The US is an exceptional country – all of its leaders agree and all of its policies are are founded on this notion of exceptionalism. It wants nothing more than to bring freedom to the peoples of the world.

          Such a pure and noble aim – poisoned and besmirched by people like you, people determined to post obviously photo shopped images to try and tarnish the reputation of these pure and humble freedom loving people.

          • Alan

            I have a little something I keep on file 😉

            1) US General says- “It’s good fun to shoot people”
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaQcVsq6akw

            2) Official US policy: I don’t know who I kill, I don’t even know how many I kill.
            I can kill anyone I want, anywhere on earth, at any time, for secret reasons, under
            secret process, decided by people in secret.
            at 6:00′ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4NRJoCNHIs

            3) A US State Dept govenrment spokesperson, when asked about Snowden” *officially states* that a US Citizen may NOT speak to defend himself.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDFIVVmXE-g

            4) US Congressman Michael Grimm threats to kill a Reporter in front of the camera,
            for daring to ask about his campaign fundraising.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeJhXaC5WPg

            5) CIA News Network, in youtube video titled: @CNN cuts off soldier then Ron Paul brings him on stage to let him finish talking” does exactly what the title says.

            6) Has produced a manual with torturing techniques which it distributed to “friendly” dictatorships (google “CIA Interrogation manual” and tell me what you find.)

            7) http://www.nbcnews.com/id/10996623/ns/world_news-terrorism/t/us-outsourced-torture-investigator-says/#.VXLa8s9Viko

            8) http://williamblum.org/aer/read/96 , “We came, we saw, we destroyed, we forgot”

            An updated summary of the charming record of US foreign policy. Since the end of the Second World War, the United States of America has …

            Attempted to overthrow more than 50 governments, most of which were democratically-elected.
            Attempted to suppress a populist or nationalist movement in 20 countries.
            Grossly interfered in democratic elections in at least 30 countries.
            Dropped bombs on the people of more than 30 countries.
            Attempted to assassinate more than 50 foreign leaders.
            In total: Since 1945, the United States has carried out one or more of the above actions, on one or more occasions, in the following 69 countries (more than one-third of the countries of the world):

            Afghanistan
            Albania
            Algeria
            Angola
            Australia
            Bolivia
            Bosnia
            Brazil
            British Guiana (now Guyana)
            Bulgaria
            Cambodia
            Chad
            Chile
            China
            Colombia
            Congo (also as Zaire)
            Costa Rica
            Cuba
            Dominican Republic
            East Timor
            Ecuador
            Egypt
            El Salvador
            Fiji
            France
            Germany (plus East Germany)
            Ghana
            Greece
            Grenada
            Guatemala
            Honduras
            India
            Indonesia
            Iran
            Iraq
            Italy
            Jamaica
            Japan
            Kuwait
            Laos
            Lebanon
            Libya
            Mongolia
            Morocco
            Nepal
            Nicaragua
            North Korea
            Pakistan
            Palestine
            Panama
            Peru
            Philippines
            Portugal
            Russia
            Seychelles
            Slovakia
            Somalia
            South Africa
            Sudan
            Suriname
            Syria
            Thailand
            Uruguay
            Venezuela
            Vietnam (plus North Vietnam)
            Yemen (plus South Yemen)
            Yugoslavia

            http://mattiasalmloef.com/?p=1416

            http://friendlydictators.blogspot.co.uk/

            http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/at-last-cuba-is-free-to-become-more-like-the-glorious-us-of-a-9934482.html

            9) Ex CIA personnel themselves describe their involvement:
            a) In the downing of PASSENGER jet, Korean Airlines Flight 007 over Siberia on August 30, 1983.
            b) In the downing of PASSENGER jet, July 3, 1988, when the USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian civilian airliner over the Persian Gulf, killing 290 people, an act which President Ronald Reagan dismissively explained as an “understandable accident”

            http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/29/obama-should-release-ukraine-evidence/

            As I’ve had it on file for some time some of the links may be dead, but the content is easily verifiable with a little research.

          • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

            “..I keep on file” and “As I’ve had it on file for some time..” (whatever the “it” is…)

            That says it all really, doesn’t it?

            Pre-written and ready to be wheeled out whenever the Hater deems appropriate (or for whenever he pops his cork)….

  • nevermind

    Craig’s last point is most pronounced when one speaks of Edward Bernay, Alan.
    When he writes
    “I firmly believe that the allegations against me were knowingly false or grossly exaggerated,. and were concocted against me deliberately to silence me after l was the only senior civil servant to enter a written objection to the policy of collusion in torture. As a consequence my career was destroyed and my health permanently damaged.”

    then that is the best example on how the already Orwellian/Leviathan system works, truth is being drowned out by cooperation with Ruperts MSM, but much more with the BBC black mailed and high jacked by party political purposes and agenda’s.
    Why is the BBC funded by a Government franchise that needs renewing by the same old same same every seven years? So they, not the listeners, can control it.

    Why is the Electoral Commission being funded by an equally renewable franchise when they should have their funding guaranteed by law? because then party politicians have control over the electoral process.
    God forbid that any Independents get elected, that would mean that these two have their funding questioned by the establishment and party politicians who rely on their connivance.

    That Craig was the only civil servant who spoke out is an indictment, a fact that shows that Bernay’s techniques have dulled and koshed the most clever minds and people, that they have not got an iota of democratic, fair and principled behaviour to offer.
    But there must be some who are stirring, and they are of better use inside, speaking out and letting us know what’s happening, these people must exist, otherwise we would have to rely solely on the excellent work of anonymous ,Wikileaks and many others who are currently involved in cutting through their massive control and silencing operation on the internet, their data stealing and SIM.
    Quiet funny that E. Bernay hated the use of his methods in advertising, that he could not have foreseen that this would be the first application, after the use for propaganda purposes

  • Anon1

    Another Canadian hostage has been beheaded in the Philippines by the Islamic group, Abu Sayyaf.

    It’s shaping up to be another gruesome Ramadam for the RoP.

        • Anon1

          I thought about responding to your request to put forward some arguments for Leave, and was going to list numerous ways in which the EU is fucking over Britain.

          But then I realised that would make most of the commenters here more likely to vote Remain. 🙂

          • glenn_uk

            Most droll I’m sure, but are you actually serious? You continually imply that many posters here want positive harm to our country, whereas in reality the people to whom you refer more likely want our war criminals held to account, and our imperialist policies brought to a halt.

            OTOH, perhaps you should compile a list of how voting REMAIN would boost Israel 😉

          • glenn_uk

            “Vote Remain or the Jews get it.”

            Now, now – you’re conflating Israel with Jews. Are you implying that Israel is a Jewish state? That’s the only way such a link could be legitimately made. And if it is, that’s unbelievably racist. If not, what are you talking about?

            I’m tired of you lot trying to have it both ways all the time.

      • Alcyone: Democracy is coming to the United States of Europe. Not.

        I am with you Glenn. Good to see you.

        • nevermind

          One for you all.
          “This vote is about preserving Europe’s competitiveness in times of change and struggle between world powers. It’s about nothing less than the future of the peace project started in 1946 by erstwhile enemy nations on a devastated continent, (“Let Europe arise!” as Churchill put it). It is a project that has unified western Europe for seven decades.

          The words are becoming increasingly heated. EU opponents are comparing Brussels to Hitler and producing dangerously false statistics, while the dominant tone among EU supporters is pathos. For once, the latter is justified, because fundamental principles are at stake.”

          http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/comment-on-brexit-it-s-smarter-to-stay-a-1096929.html

          • Anon1

            “If it votes to leave because a disproportionately high number of older and less well-educated British want it so passionately…”

            Older and less well-educated. The fucking cheek.

          • glenn_uk

            Yes, that is a damned cheek. Once again, it demonstrates my point about LEAVE voters being dismissed as stupid, ignorant racists. And that arrogance will probably cost us our membership (for good or ill).

    • Loony

      As far as I know Craig Murray has stated that he is in favor of the UK remaining in the EU, and that he considers the referendum to be a contest by proxy for the Conservative Party leadership. Beyond that he has no interest in discussing the subject.

      I have yet to hear any form of meaningful positive arguments for remaining in the EU. Perhaps that is because no matter how gifted a wordsmith one may be the task at hand is simply impossible. Whatever your personal political leanings there is a wealth of considered political thought that makes a compelling case for leaving the EU. This ranges from the views espoused by people like Michael Foot and Tony Benn right across the spectrum to figures such as Enoch Powell. Their political descendants continue to make their case.

      That the EU is both corrupt and fatally flawed is beyond doubt. Democratic votes are ignored whenever they threaten to place a brake on the aims and aspirations of the EU elites. Greece is being hurtled into the third world and is little more than a neglected colony of Germany. The economies of southern Europe are being left to atrophy in perpetuity. The EU is allowing itself to be blackmailed and humiliated by Turkey. It’s only solution to the refugee crisis is to hurl accusations of racism at Viktor Orban and indeed any citizen that may inquire as to the actual plan.

      It is a stagnating economic bloc suffocating any entrepreneurial spirit in rafts of petty regulations that have been largely designed by large corporate firms in order to benefit themselves by choking off the prospect of any meaningful competition. It is only the economic strength of Germany that serves to mask the truly dreadful position of most of the rest of the union. Germany is only as strong as it is because through the euro it benefits from currency manipulation by proxy.

      Popular discontent is obvious and explains the rise of anti EU parties all across Europe, ranging from right wing French Front National to the left wing Spanish Unidos Podemos. That the EU will collapse is beyond doubt, the only unknown is what form this collapse will take.

      British politicians constantly peddle fear and maintain that the UK is too small to stand alone in the wider world. The opposite is true. Alone among European countries that may act the UK is large enough and strong enough to deliver a knock out blow to the EU. The UK is the best hope that Europe has to unwind the EU on relatively peaceful terms. All thinking people in Europe should be urging the British to stand firm and vote leave.

      • glenn_uk

        Yet more ill-informed nonsense from an uneducated racist 😉

        Seriously though – excellent points, Loony.

      • Jim

        It comes to something when you’re reduced to using the decades out of date views of the dead! And talking if Greek advocates and voices, you might be interested to know Yanis Varoufakis, the well known neo-con hawk and warmonger, has been doing the rounds for months strongly advocating for Remain.

        • Loony

          The views of Yanis Varoufakis will ultimately be conditioned by what he considers to be in the best interests of Greece He is entitled to his views and the British population is entitled to determine that his views, whatever they may, are irrelevant to their considerations.

          • Jim

            Nooe, that’s a gross mid-characterisation of his views. The guy has a better grasp of the history of British politics, a better grasp of nearly everything, than most British pundits. It’s worth watching the Mason conversation, he’s a very bright fellow, a veritable polymath.

          • Jim

            And anyway your statement doesn’t make sense, if Varoufakis’ only interest was in Greece’s future wellbeing, and he’s strongly advocating for Britsin to remain in, where does that leave your argument that remaining would not be in Greece’s interest?

          • Loony

            Jim – Hungary is in central Europe, not eastern Europe.

            Orban is best described a Hungarian nationalist. But, however you describe him, he is popular in Hungary.

            Despite an absence of any evidence if you consider him to be a racist xenophobe then why would you want to be associated with him? and moreover associated with a majority of the Hungarian population who support him?

            Yanis Varoufakis is unquestionably intelligent and highly plausible. In the ultimate analysis he is an “educated idiot” He devised a highly credible plan to resolve the Greek debt crisis. A plan that was thrown into the bin by the EU even as he was explaining it. His intellect is such that he is simply unable to grasp the evil that is the EU. The EU says it wants a solution and Varoufakis believes them and provides one. He does not understand that they are telling lies. The last thing they want is a solution and every single thing the EU has done in relation to Greece is evidence of this.

            Overriding Greek economic problems, the Greeks have an atavistic fear of the Turks. As people like Erdogan consolidates power this fear grows. Naturally Greece believes that the EU provides some from of protection from Turkey.

          • Jim

            Oh, Yanis Varoufakis the credulous dupe? That one? Give me a break, he gives detailed point by point elucidation in the Mason conversation as to how the ‘monster may be tamed’, and says that while his critics claim he is a Utopian dreamer, things can be changed. It’s a powerful and credible message of hope.
            Hungary, central/eastern? it’s a pernickety non-point to choose to argue over. To choose ‘in’ and have such dubious political and economic bedfellows does indeed give pause for thought. However, you were claiming Orban is no xenophobe at all, which is pretty untenable, and you smartly sidestepped that.

          • Loony

            Jim If your believing Orban is a xenophobe racist encourages you to dump the EU then I am happy to agree with your categorization.

            Don;t forget Marine le Pen in France is very right wing. The AfD (Alternative for Germany) is gathering support, there is still a minority fascist party in Spain, the Law and Justice party is in power in Poland (some say they are worse than Orban), an Austrian nationalist came within a few thousand votes of winning the Presidential elections.

            Varafoukis is only one face of Greece. Do not forget Golden Dawn – a bona fide fascist party.

            Agreeing with your definition of racism and xenophobia, surely you can see that these people are all over Europe and their influence is growing. You surely do not want to be associated with such people. Vote Leave!

          • Jim

            I’ll go with Yanis thanks. These xenophobes are not there for ever, this is an ongoing and existential battle. The consequences from Brexit precipitating a complete breakup of the EU are, in Varoufakis’ estimation and other influential voices such as Tusk, more dangerous than maintaining the union. I believe him.

          • Loony

            Jim – I take it you have actually read the thoughts of Varafoukis.

            You don’t seem to have pointed out that he himself conditioned his views with a caveat to the expected failure of his own ideas “There is virtue in heroic failure”

          • Jim

            The statement doesn’t indicate ‘expected’. And there is such a notion, who would deny it? The consequences of not trying are more serious than not trying at all.

      • Jim

        And by the way, Orban is a racist xenophobe, did you read the Oborne opinion piece someone posted earlier? Scary stuff from these people, and there are a lot of them in Eastern Europe.

    • Alan

      The end of Western civilisation? Yeah! And better still, Cameron goes down in history as the one who caused it.

  • Anon1

    Is anyone false-flagging yet? Surely there were crisis actors involved, or holograms, or shadows in the wrong places? Perhaps RobG can comment on the CCTV footage.

    I’m surprised Nevermind hasn’t blamed the gays for fooling around in a nightclub whilst a terrorist is trying to go about his business.

    • Loony

      No need to false flag this. They are working hard on blaming the NRA and Christian fundamentalists.

      • Anon1

        The BBC in particular has been very keen to stress the homophobic nature of the attack. The discussion then becomes about homophobic attitudes and LGBT rights in the US, ather than Islamic extremism and Islam’s violent attitudes towards homosexuals.

        The pretence that there is nothing wrong with Islam must be kept up at all costs.

        • Jim

          Anon, you posted a very misleading comment yesterday suggesting Owen Jones ‘flounced’ out of the Sky studios because they wouldn’t accept his characterisation of the crime as purely homophobic hate crime. He was annoyed rather because they seemed not to accept his contention that it was both Islamist terrorism and homophobic hate crime. In other words they were focused on the Islamist nature of the crime and not seeing it in its full context.

          So Sky’s skewed focus seems ok to you, but now the BBC are somehow biased for looking at the homophobia element? Hmmm.

        • Loony

          Did you know that siderodromophobia is a fear of trains and is only diagnosed rarely in comparison to other phobias. This is strange because if the attacks in Florida were homophobic then the attacks in Madrid and London must surely be siderodromophobic.

          Perhaps devotees of Islam are much more likely than other segments of the population to suffer from siderodromophobia. There appears to be a paucity of literature on this subject – maybe the EU could consider funding some research.

    • nevermind

      Speculating again Anon? you got all the facts, have you? or is this just your opinion so far.

      Here is the next president of the EU speaking the language of Trump, Gove and Farrage. British Muslims do have little choice.
      On one side they will face six month of bigotry before the Maltese falcons take over the reign, whilst on the other they will loose their human rights altogether for some bill of rights they have no say in, forever.

      by Peter Oborne.
      http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/which-way-should-british-muslims-vote-eu-referendum-152685040

      • michael norton

        If we vote to leave the hated .U.

        Cameron is going to fuck everything up for the U.K.

        • Macky

          Ah ! Dim Jimbo ! No relax, I’m not going to remind you that you have yet to produce all those “anti-Semitic” & “horrendous homophobic” comments of mine, because as we both know they don’t exist, and you are just a shameless lying smearing troll.

          However still interested to hear your views on if you’re supporting BDS or not, & as to whetever Israel can be called an Apartheid State ?

          • Macky

            @Dim Jim, no can’t find any antisemitism or homophobia there; Can you quote exactly what you are referring to, but this time try not to deliberately change any words as you did before !

            Why so shy on stating your views on BDS or Apartheid Israel ? 😀

        • Macky

          All talk and no trousers as we all know Dim Jim, thanks anyhow for proving yet again that you are a shameless lying smearing troll.

          I have to tell you though, your reluctance to answer the Israel questions is not doing you any favours ! 😀

          • Jim

            I’ve posted numerous times thicko, a couple of days ago multiple posts on the subject of a damning BBC Storyville on the hidden war-crimes of the 6 day war. Why do you persist with this inane shit when everybody can see you lying continually. It just makes you look a complete arsehole.

          • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

            Still nothing of substance from “Macks”.

            If he asks nicely and sends me his real email I’d be happy to send him a few pointers for future comments.

            No charge! 🙂

          • Macky

            The only “lack of substance” Habba-Clown is Dim Jim’s smearing attempts, oh, also his very amusing evading of two very simple questions on Israel, to which you should feel honoured as I think it’s due to him not wanting to hurt your feelings about Israel ! 😀

          • Jim

            Christ, it’s like a horrific alternate version of the Big Lebowski : “my message to you sir is,’The morons won!'”.

          • Macky

            @Dim Jim, what do you think Dumbo, that you could get away with smearing people, you disgusting low-life ?

          • Macky

            @glenn_uk, well I did try to engage your troll mate about Israel, but he keeps running away ! 😀

          • glenn_uk

            It is possible to thoroughly disagree with someone while keeping it civilised, you know.

            You should try it sometime. It might allow you to get your point across, while not embarrassing your natural allies. You never know, you might actually convince your opponent of something – make them learn about your point of view.

            That’s never going to happen while they are defending or counter-attacking a personal offensive. Habbabkuk would benefit from this advice too, and I’m not entirely convinced Anon1 is beyond hope – even he can manage a passing impression of being house-trained on occasion.

          • Macky

            glenn_uk; “It is possible to thoroughly disagree with someone while keeping it civilised, you know.”

            I know you have been having spells away from here, so you may have missed some background here, but you should know by now that I give people a fair chance to start with, but when they start trolling, and try the old smearing game, to the extent of deliberately changing my words in “quotes”, all of which is very uncivilised, that’s when I start calling out trolls & liars for what they are;

            If you prefer to let such tactics slip by in the interest of remaining pals with people, that’s your call, just don’t expect me to do the same.

          • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

            “Macks” to Glenn:

            “…you should know by now that I give people a fair chance to start with..”
            _____________________

            Supreme magnanimity! Oh, divine tolerance! Amazing Grace!

            We bow down before the master and pray we may yet receive His Gracious Approval.

            And then we wake up and remember he’s just The Flouncer.

            Get real, “Macks”

      • Anon1

        Don’t you think Islam has earned its reputation in Europe?

        And no, not speculating. You blamed the British tourists for their own deaths for arsing around on the beach in Tunisia.

        Now get back to sticking up for your friend ‘BDS Now’ (who “has it just right”).

        • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

          Our German-born contributor from Norfolk was born after the war and would therefore not have been exposed to Nazi indoctrination before coming to the UK.

          That makes his true feelings (as expressed in his support for “BDS Now!”) all the more remarkable…..and worrying.

          • Anon1

            He was around when “BDS Now” was calling for Jews to be put aboard cattle trucks.

            It appears we have something deeply troubling in our midst in the Norfolk countryside.

          • nevermind

            Its you and Habby, Anon, who are the real boot licking fascists here, whatever lies you may like to spread about me.
            I have fought fascists all my life and I can see them a mile off.
            Those who want to ban BDS for shekels stick out especially.

            And whatever you call fucking ckeek, Anon, when information given to voters are lies and accusations that are really disturbing.
            Calling Brussels the new Nazi HQ does not make for PM material.

          • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

            “I have fought fascists all my life and I can see them a mile off.”
            ____________________

            Pardon??

            What fascists have you fought?

            For God’s sake THINK before you write, man!

  • Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit

    Wonder if loony Donald is going to call on the military to bust into the White House, and make a citizen’s arrest of the POTUS.

    Heaven forbid that he calls on it to level the NRA headquarters for allowing the mentally disturbed to purchase any weapons they fancy..

    • Anon1

      Gun control is a side issue and a convenient distraction for the progressive left who want to avoid any discussion of Islam. I would agree that the ability for almost anyone to posses an assault rifle is questionable, but a truck load of gas cylinders would have done the job as effectively. And not forgetting that the Paris attacks were carried out in a country with far stricter gun laws than the US. If you want to get hold of weapons to cause mass deaths and destruction you can do so in any country and there are also reports that the shooter had bomb-making equipment.

      • Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit

        Pathetic Anon1 as gun violence in America is an epidemic with nearly 100 people being killed by them every day in the USA.

        Dangerous jihadists should be on every counter terrorist list, and should be under surveillance to prevent them from doing any violence.

        A truck load of anything is harder to use for anything than just going down and buying an assault weapons to kill a whole lot of people if one fancies.

        And enforcing laws on the books about limiting gun violence is a joke here and in many other places.

        Get real instead of just engaging in diversions.

        • Loony

          Trowbridge – Is a diversion a lie if it don’t come true or is it something worse?

          It is true that in the US almost 100 people a day die gunshot wounds. It is also true that about 2/3rds of those deaths are by way of suicide. Presumably people intent on suicide are not reliant on access to firearms.

          Is there any reason why you did not mention this fact?

          • Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit

            I have no objection to suicide by any means if it is a reasonable solution to the problems of life no matter how it is conducted.

            I am probably going to commit suicide if the world and my health deteriorates much more.

            In short, I don’t consider gun suicides a problem that can be solved but murders, especially massacres, can be greatly reduced if our country is not an open gun market.

            And a diversion is changing the subject so that the stated problem or concern can be avoided or minmised.

        • Republicofscotland

          “gun violence in America is an epidemic with nearly 100 people being killed by them every day in the USA.”

          _______________________

          Well if these annually increasing facts are anything to go by, then gun control isn’t the main threat to the average American.

          http://obamacarefacts.com/facts-on-deaths-due-to-lack-of-health-insurance-in-us/

          The US government might not be able to do much about gun ownership in America, but they could do plenty about the health insurance companies and big pharma if they wanted to, but they don’t want to.

    • Republicofscotland

      “Heaven forbid that he calls on it to level the NRA headquarters”

      _________________

      You’ll have Charlton Heston spinning in his grave in. ?

  • Republicofscotland

    The father of one of the four young Israeli young men killed on Wednesday, in Tel Aviv by Palestinian men (allegedly ) said it’s the fault of the Israeli government, by making things worse instead of better.

    “The father of Ido Ben Ari, one of the four victims of the shooting attack allegedly carried out by two Palestinian cousins at a Tel Aviv cafe, accused the Israeli government of making the situation worse.

    “Last night, after the attack, the prime minister and two of his ministers arrived and yet another security cabinet issued decrees – not to return corpses, to put up barriers, to destroy houses, and to make lives harder,” the father said at his son’s funeral.”

    “These solutions create suffering, hatred, despair and lead to more people joining the circle of terror,” he added. “What’s needed is a solution rather than saying all the time that there’s nobody to make peace with.”

    Wise words, alas I fear they’ll go unheeded.

    https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/video-israeli-occupation-colonization-root-violence?utm_source=EI+readers&utm_campaign=a234366c34-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_e802a7602d-a234366c34-299185473

    • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

      Just like it was the fault of the tourists in Tunisia for being in Tunisia or the fault of the people in Paris being in the Bataclan?

      • Republicofscotland

        Habb.

        Well I think when the father of one of the murdered men, speaks out and says – look the system is all wrong or words to that effect. Those in positions of power and responsibility show sit up and take notice.

        There may be a growing unrest among Israeli residents, that the direction Israel is heading in (internally) isn’t the right one.

        It’s a can of worms, that can only be opened from the inside out, in my opinion, and I dare say, it’s the opinion of the father, who’s just lost his son.

        • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

          RoS

          “Habb.

          Well I think when the father…..”

          ______________________

          Whoa, RoS, stop right there! You don’t think, you just clown around.

      • nevermind

        Again you proof your absence of mind, Habby. Tunesia was given a FO warning, have you forgotten?
        Tunesia under BenAli was a torturing state with no freedom of speech. He was disposed by its people with the help of some anonymous hackers who took it upon themselves to show its poor people how Ben Ali lived in pure luxury, importing his fruit juice from Monaco by air and feeding four chickens per day to his sons tiger pet.

        That was a week before poor Mohamed Bouazizi took his own life and became the spark that outed the BenAli regime.
        The new Government under which this massacre was carried out, was young inexperienced and in the cross hair of a western backed IS.
        Follow the money stupid.

      • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

        That was a silly comment of mine, wasn’t it, RoS?

        Very similar to most of yours, in fact.

        Hope it helps you to learn.

  • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

    I note that the recent flurry of activity by “BDS Now!” coincides with an unusual period of silence from our Transatlantic Friend.

    • Republicofscotland

      Good afternoon Habb.

      How is our wannabe mod? Still pining, to moderate Craig’s super blog? Or have you accepted that your cherished desire, is nothing more than a pipe dream. ?

  • John Goss

    After the England Russia football match there were a few comments on hooliganism, and which fans were to blame, exactly what MSM want you to be discussing, rather than the football, because that is what fosters hatred. Hatred keeps the battles going. I never commented at the time because, although I was sure in my mind that the ‘foul’ that led to England’s goal was not a foul I could find no footage and ITV never repeated it (surprise, surprise) so had to look elsewhere. Because politics has become an increasingly integral part of sport I decided to blog about it.

    http://johngossip.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/soccer-england-did-not-deserve-victory.html

    • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

      “http://johngossip.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/soccer-england-did-not-deserve-victory.html”
      ________________________

      Of course it didn’t, Mr Goss, because it was England.

      ***********************

      I’ve heard that cuckoos leave their eggs in others’ nests but this is the first time I’ve seen the cuckoo leaving his address in the new nest 🙂

    • Loony

      Yeah the British do things their way,

      Andy Burnham said England had been let down by a minority of their fans and that whilst they may have been provoked they were not blameless and that their behavior was embarrassing.

      And the Russians do things their way

      Igor Lebedev a member of the Russian Duma did not think the behavior of Russian supporters to be out of the ordinary and praised the hooligans for defending the honor of Russia and for not allowing the British to in any way defile the homeland.

      • fred

        I think there may be more to the Russian “hooligans” than meets the eye. British fans said they weren’t like ordinary fans, they all looked like body builders and French authorities say it was a well planned and well orchestrated attack. All the Russians escaped arrest.

        A military or paramilitary unit maybe?

          • Macky

            @Habba_Clown, sneaky being topless, doesn’t allow you opponent any chance to grab & hold you.

            Here’s something for you to comment on;

            Whilst the media attention is focused on Orlando and Pretoria, the daily oppression continues.

            IOP headlines for 10 June 2016:

            Israeli Army positions open fire on Gaza farms

            Night peace disruption and/or home invasions in 9 towns and villages

            4 attacks (2 Israeli ceasefire violations)

            14 raids including home invasions

            3 injured – 2 acts of agricultural/economic sabotage

            20 taken prisoner –

            70 restrictions of movement

            Palestine Human Rights Campaign
            http://palestine.org.nz/phrc/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3413&Itemid=44

        • Jim

          British police were in Marseilles to keep tabs on Brit hooligans, filming etc for evidence for future banning orders, and their boss said the Russian ‘fans’ were highly organised, tooled up and at a level of violence he’d not seen before. They are handing over their filmed evidence to French police to try and locate the Russian thugs for prosecution. I hope they succeed.

        • John Goss

          “All the Russians escaped arrest.” What I cannot fathom here is if they were wearing balaclavas how can we tell what nationality they were.

        • Loony

          Fred – I do not know who the Russians were.

          I do know that I was speaking with a Polish emigre earlier. That person told me that unlike the Polish the English do not understand the Russian mentality. That there are many Polish people in France with a principle aim of engaging with Russians and I that I should be advised that no matter the circumstances Polish people will never back down from Russians.

          This kind of sentiment does not bode well for your expressed hope that the world moves away from nationalism.

        • Alan

          A military or paramilitary unit maybe?

          There was a photo in one of the papers showing a number of them with a circular tattoo on their left shoulder, so probably.

      • Anon1

        “Igor Lebedev a member of the Russian Duma did not think the behavior of Russian supporters to be out of the ordinary and praised the hooligans for defending the honor of Russia and for not allowing the British to in any way defile the homeland.”

        Stop it. You’re getting Macky all horny.

    • fwl

      Whilst it’s halfway acceptable to support Russia over England if your Scottish or Irish (or quarter way to acceptable if your Welsh) it’s kind of weird to support Russia if your English and don’t have Russian ancestry; it evens raises a question mark over your purely political postings.

      Footie commentators generally acknowledge where their team has had the benefit of a dodgy decision even in England. They might make light of it but they acknowledge it.

      • John Goss

        Then why didn’t they? Why didn’t they replay it? It was never a foul in a million years. “Dele Alli ran into Georgy Shchennikov”. It is clear to all except people like Resident Dissident below. He should watch it again, bearing in mind it was never replayed in our media (how unusual is that?), and was not available on a search. And when he watches it he should take off his ‘blame Putin’ and ‘blame Russia’ hat. D)

        • Resident Dissident

          Blame Putin and Blame Russia are two different hats. Where is the coverage in the Russian media or Russian commentators claimimg that there was no foul???? On 19 out of 20 occasions referees would have given that body check as a foul – and on the other occasion they would have been wrong. – I did look at it again on your link.

          Please take off your I hate my country mask.

          • Macky

            RD; “Blame Putin and Blame Russia are two different hats”

            Did you write that with a straight face ! Whenever the topic of Russia come up, no matter the issue, it is you, Resident Dumbo ,who’s always try to personalise with your “Putinista” smears! 😀

    • Resident Dissident

      We can clearly add football to the list of subjects about which you know very little – I’ve watched the foul again and it confirms what I thought at the time and I don’t think you will find many clearer examples of a player being impeded. Not even my missus argued about the foul and the booking- and when it comes to football she is very partisan and obviously watches the game more often than yourself – and from what I can see there were any complaints in the Russian Press either.

      As for the idiots using sport as an excuse for violence whether they be English, Russian or whatever they are just idiots.

      • John Goss

        “from what I can see there were any complaints in the Russian Press either.”

        That would surprise me but perhaps they never got to see a replay.

        Shchennikov showed great restraint. He never moved when Alli ran into him instead of round him. He never even protested. Sometimes you have to bite your lip when a bad decision goes against you. This was a bad decision. I guess all teams have been advised to accept the referee’s decision since there is nothing you can do about it. The same happened in the Ukraine Germany match, if you watched that, to the detriment of Ukraine, for whom I felt sorry.

        As to knowing about football I was watching it when you were in nappies at a time when men were men and their shorts went down to their knees. However in the interests of fairness I urge others to watch the replay at 3 minutes 30 seconds in this vid and see if they agree that “it was a clear example of a player being impeded.” Outside of your gang of six I doubt you’ll get many takers if they’re honest.

        http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=2764456

        • Resident Dissident

          Watched it again Schennikov clearly coming forward when he fouled Alli – please go and have your eyes checked. Football has moved on since your days .

    • glenn_uk

      I dunno about that. They’re up against some stiff competition from the Dutch, for example.

    • Anon1

      Not any more. I recall a few years ago when Chelsea went to Galatasaray, the Turks were waiting for them with chains and broken bottles.

      Only to find that the Chelsea fans were there just to enjoy the match with their families.

      There is a perception in many European countries that England fans are still as they were in the late 80s/early 90s.

  • bevin

    The haste with which the trolls seek to pin the killings in Orlando on Islam is a disturbing sign of the extent of the headway made by islamaphobic propaganda in our culture.
    It is clear enough that Islam had no more to do with this massacre than Buddhism.
    In terms of immediate responsibility the killer was a young man, the son of a well known Afghan emigre politician who has lived in America for decades (the killer himself was US born and bred), working for one of the “Security” firms G4S which specialises is doing dirty work for governments, including both the British and the Israelis. He had a long history not of religious observance but of domestic violence and mental illness.
    And the ‘religion’ to which, allegedly, and shortly before dying, he stated his allegiance, over the ‘phone, is that variety of wahhabism concocted by the Saudi kleptocracy and the CIA to serve as a rallying point for the collection of mercenaries, collected from the muslim world and beyond, it welds into militias to take down geo-political rivals.
    These riff-raff need a new and simplified religion because Islam simply does not condone massacres of this sort or homophobia (it is curious how many people forget that Islam in the west has long had the reputation of being the ‘not homophobic’ religion).
    The reality is that, sad as the event is and horrible as must be the suffering of the survivors it is all too typical of the world imperialism has built for us. What seems quite genuinely to shock people is that today’s “dozens killed; many wounded” story comes to us not from Iraq or Syria, Libya (‘we came, we saw and we killed thousands.Ha Ha Ha’) or even Odessa, but from the world of Walt Disney.
    We really ought to understand that once we get into the business of killing crowds of people to de-stabilise governments or as ‘colateral’ damage in assassination attempts. Or to get shi’ites to fight sunnis or to terrorise Catholics watching Football on TV…once we start down that road it is going to lead, inevitably to massacres in the metropolis.
    Does anyone remember 9/11?
    And it really matters very little whether one believes it to have been a false flag operation or a genuine episode of blowback, carried out by people angered by imperialist attacks on their countries. It doesn’t matter at all for the victims, who in any case were the victims of vicious, callous imperialist policies.

    There is something really horrible about the haste with which, before the blood has begun to dry, the propagandists rush to set up their stalls at the crime scene. The smoke still hanging over the place, the corpses still being carried away and the air is full of the sound of islamophobes blaming religion, identity brokers claiming yet another battle in the war between ‘gays’ and those who refuse to congratulate them on their sexual tastes, racists eager to point out that the shooter was brown skinned, feminists reminding us that violence at home-rather than in the world at large- is the thin end of the wedge and the whole carnival of political clowns who dance on graves because dancing on graves can be profitable. And a lot less wearing than digging ditches.
    How many of our intellectual and political class earn livings from the business of scapegoating muslims? How many millions are spent on think tanks, publishers, academies in which cheap propaganda, much of it inspired by the fascist strain of zionism, is heaped up to be thrown at muslims?
    How many of the trolls here gave up thinking years ago because trotting out watered down racism (slavophobia, sinophobia included) and banging out variations on the theme that Islam needs a Reformation (one wonders whether such fools have caught on to the fruits of the Christian Reformation in its more popular and bigoted forms: you want a Reformation? Check out Texas on a Sunday morning) is so much easier than missing a few hours worth of chances to insult and, (who knows?), perhaps even hurt or anger someone living thousands of kilometers away, someone who you will never meet, and who you have no interest in understanding, missing such semi-orgasmic moments of fleeting excitement in order to study the matters under discussion. To read a book perhaps, to look at a map; to consider the case of the victim, rather than the bully’s threadbare justifications, to think before shooting off the opinions culled from yesterday’s Guardian or the BBC.
    The trolls are our Long Parliament, or Scottish Synod who have sat too long and settled into the work of taking the easiest route, following the path most trodden, refusing to think for themselves, less than real citizens of the blog because they do not bring their own judgments to the discussion but merely the cast off ideas of those they revere, the pundits working for imperialism, the hired guns of zionism and the whores of academia.
    May they rot in Connaught, where internet connections are few and far between.

    • Jim

      So Owen Jones and Peter Tatchell are Islamophobic bigots? And you’ll be telling me the Amazon flows into the Red Sea next.

        • nevermind

          Macky, you are quoting some very weird sites for your not so sturdy accusation, quiet poor for your standard.
          peter Thatchell is well aware who runs the Muslim community via the pulpits, and to say that gay Muslims are welcome in mosques with open arms would be a lie.
          That said, some of the two facedness amongst Christians when confronted with reality of the LGBT movement can be equally rabid.
          Thatchell has devoted his life to sexual politics, thats his choice, to say he is a warmonger is pathetic.

          • Macky

            @Nevermind, I used the Aussie Site because it’s was the only one I found with a scan of Tatchell’s letter; that you are not aware that Tatchell, from the attack on Iraq onwards, has supported all other military interventions in Muslim countries, may explain why you don’t consider him one of the Fake Left Cruise Missile Humanitarians, however many others have seen through him; I recommend you look into this, (I think I provided links in the I, Daniel Blake’).

          • Macky

            @Nevermind, Here’s a comment that neatly outlines the case against Tatchell as being “anti-war;;

            “Tatchell has a made a habit in recent years of saying ‘I am anti-war – but here is my pro-war demand, and if the left don’t go along with it, shame on them!’.

            Here he is basically saying ‘I am anti-war, but the occupation of Afghanistan must continue for the good of Afghans’.

            Here he is saying ‘I am anti-war, but we must bomb Syria for the good of Syrians’ (given that a ‘no-fly zone’ simply can’t be enforced without regular and fairly heavy bombing of ‘enemy’ air defences).

            Here he is saying ‘I am anti-war, but Libya must be bombed for the good of Libyans’.

            Even as far back as 2003, he was arguing for a kind of ‘intervention lite’ approach to Iraq, writing that while he was opposed to the invasion of Iraq, ‘The international community should train and arm the Iraqi opposition forces, especially the Kurds and Shias who already have viable armies’, providing ‘tanks, helicopter gun-ships, fighter planes, heavy artillery and anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles’.

            What could possibly have gone wrong?

            Incidentally, he wants Nigeria to be one of the countries which sets up ‘no-fly zones’ and ‘safe havens’ in Syria. Even though the Nigerian government and armed forces have spent the last few years bombing civilians, carrying out massacres, systematically torturing and collectively punishing whole villages themselves (this is all well documented by human rights groups). It’s a strange kind of ‘humanitarianism’ that puts forward these vicious abusers as the saviors of Syrians.

            There’s a bit of a pattern here, isn’t there? Trumpet your anti-war credentials, then argue for pro-war policies – over and over again.

            I also thought it was very rich of him to argue that Stop the War apparently not letting pro-U.S. led intervention Syrians speak at their rallies is ‘censorship’.

            Because when Stop the War invited Agnes Mariam – who is allegedly pro-Assad, but against U.S. led bombing – to speak at their November 2013 rally, he signed a letter demanding that they no-platform her (that Agnes Mariam is a Christian, and works within Syria’s Christian communities, might give some indication as to why she would be sympathetic towards Assad – i.e. the alternative is seen as potentially worse by some minority groups within Syria – beyond her simply being evil).

            So on the face of it, Tatchell appears to want ‘free speech’ for U.S. led intervention advocates who hold views inimical to the Stop the War cause, but no-platforming for anti-U.S. lead intervention advocates who hold views inimical to the Stop the War cause.

            It looks like blatant double standards and hypocrisy to me, designed to push Tatchell’s pro-war agenda, but disguised as a principled defense of the right to a say.” Peter on 8 November, 2015 at 10:45 am

            It’s below this piece, which you should read also;

            http://socialistunity.com/stop-the-war-peter-tatchell-and-the-malign-legacy-of-western-liberalism/

          • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

            http://www.socialistunity.com, eh?

            Sounds like a platform for one of those myriad ultra hard left grouplets (International Marxists, International Socialists, Workers’ Revolutionary Party, etc, etc).

            That’s probably why “Macks” sounds so deranged.

      • YouKnowMyName

        I take your FrAmirals MN, and raise them with a Polish Politicos predict the end of the world. . . ‘European Council president Donald Tusk says a UK vote to leave the EU could threaten “Western political civilisation”‘ [BBC headline, I couldn’t be bothered to read the actual farticle] 🙂

  • Macky

    @Habba_Clown Troll, thanks for the great laugh ! 😀

    You have buried, dug-up, decapitated, & reburied poor old Satire !

    Damaging the reputation of this blog is your prime motive here, so do the decent thing for this Bog, and simply disappear ! 😀

  • Silvio

    So just who are the real anti-Semites?

    Israel’s Silent Allies Are Its Worst Enemy
    Former PM notes ‘signs of fascism,’ but West ignores danger.
    By Murray Dobbin, 11 Jun 2016
    Israeli political commentator Michael Brizon, who writes under the pseudonym B. Michael, concluded the failure of Western governments to criticize what is happening in Israel is itself a new form of anti-Semitism. Writing in a Haaretz op-ed titled ”Yet Again the Jewish People Face Great Danger and the World Is Silent,” Brizon lamented the fact that the greatest danger to Israel is now from within, not from its traditional enemies. ”With our very own hands, we anointed the Huns who rule over us.”
    The irony for Michael is palpable: Israel’s promise has been lost, he wrote, and ”all that remains is a big mouth, brandished fist, and endless hidden hatred, militarism, paganism, and self-righteousness. And the world is silent.”
    That silence is what terrifies Michael: ”…if you persist in your silence, you indifferent world, that will be categorical proof that you really are anti-Semitic, exactly as we’ve always been told.”

    http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2016/06/11/Israel-Worst-Enemy/?utm_source=weekly&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=130616

    • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

      Here’s what The Tyee’s (cited by Berlusconi) says about itself on its cover page:

      “The Tyee strives to be a widely read and respected independent online magazine that publishes news, reviews and commentary not typically covered by B.C. and Canada’s mainstream media. We aim to inform and enliven the democratic conversation necessary to improve environmental, economic and social conditions.”

      That’s why it has a “story” about Israel in its front page.

      Hatred assumes many disguises.

      • nevermind (meiere in faciem)

        Exactly Silvio, thanks.
        Monseigneur Cacophonous Habbicus delirious, above, just does not realise that Israel is eating itself, provides no future for its children. Who wants their children to live in war, with hatred eating up society, a pariah on the world stage, projected militarism and interference in the neighbours resources and assets.
        Israel will destroy itself from within, because so much hatred for others can’t be channelled to sound positive and appealing.

        • Anon1

          I have noticed that whenever there is a major Islamic terrorist attack, the Israel obsessives on this blog start sounding off their fantasies about Israel ceasing to exist.

          It’s just weird.

          • Oh the humanity

            Oh dear, has there been yet another mass murder? I heard about the one committed by the violent groupie of Bloomberg’s personal army, the NYPD – saw his pictures posing in their regalia – was there a new one, by Islamists?

          • Slapsticke

            Yes, quite, Graham Fuller brought the boy’s palaar to CONUS as a Muj, lent him money for a rug store or whatever dismal bone they throw the small fry. Bit of a Walter Mitty, isn’t it? Mateen minor inherited Dad’s inferiority complex and then some. CIA and Mossad tweaked it till the boy was NYPD material, a downright psychotic nitwit. Same routine as with Ruslan’s nephew, same old strategia della tensione. Fuller’s toned it down a bit, at least. Spared us the corny snapshots of anguished casualties and heroic bumboys capering with American flags. Wise, that. What decent man of human feeling can view the Boston Marathon photos without laughing?

          • Lord Haw-Haw

            Indeed, the boy worked for G4S, or whatever they call themselves today. They’ve recruited a preeminent corps of zoomers. They hired Tom Hall to blow up the Olympics, panicked the London embassy with that squib in their truck, and stampeded Old Trafford with that toy bomb. Chris Reid’s the D.G. of Fucking Up.

    • Ben Monad

      Rome rotted from the inside. The Barbarians just nudged the culture for total collapse.

  • Republicofscotland

    Habb.

    Unrequited love, (regarding desperation to be a mod) must surely be a tragic thing. Like Juliet awakening to find Romeo dead, Habb, just can’t seem to comprehend that he’ll never see his beloved name, next to the word moderator. He truly is a star crossed commentor.

    No doubt if one listens hard enough, the faint tragic tear filled cries of Habb, mumbling “moderatorship, wherefore art thou moderatorship.” ?

  • John Goss

    I’ve just watched Italy 2 Belgium 0 and Italy look strong contenders with fast but relaxed play. They produced 3 professional fouls where Belgium could have had a run at goal, but that seems to be par for the game these days.

    I am consoled to see nobody yet has come to the defence of the deplorable England commentators who made a concerted effort to make sure the ‘foul’ from which England went one up was never shown again. We have reached a stage where we no longer have any shame, not just on the field but in the commentary box. It is win at all costs – which is of course technically cheating. This win at all costs attitude, like three or four years back when Stuart Broad refused to walk after being caught in slips to a thick edge, is the culture of dishonesty from which the next generation is learning. It is the bankers’ mentality, the mentality of public schools, the mentality of governments.

    I have seen tennis players acknowledge a ball being in when it technically cost them a point. I have seen golfers acknowledge accidentally moving a ball and other misdemeanours which rightfully cost them shots. But it is honesty in sport. In cricket in the past fielders have acknowledged that the ball touched the ground before being caught. Now we have to have cameras. What chance do sportsmen and women have when our sports’ commentators are as bad as our newsreaders?

    • glenn_uk

      Did you see the foul play against Wales last Saturday? Even the English commentators were shocked – a linesman was watching the foul directly from mere yards away, and never saw a thing. Just unbelievable. Winning, even after the other side commits blatant fouls, feigns attacks against themselves, in short cheats shamelessly with the indulgence of the ref – that is one of the sweetest victories.

      • John Goss

        I agree glenn_uk: it was a solid victory and well deserved. My fellow countrymen need to be aware that there is a man called Gareth Bale on the pitch on Thursday. It looks like being a good game.

        Roy Hodgson did all right for the Baggies and he is a good club manager. At this level he’s out of his depth. He proved it in the World Cup and I am surprised they gave him a second chance. It was a mistake to get rid of Sven but there again I am not racist even if there are some who believe unwaveringly that the England manager should be English at all costs. When I was young there was a similar mentality with Yorkshire cricket: “Tha can’t play for Yorkshire unless tha’s a Yorkshireman.” Such parochial attitudes belong in the parish dustbin.

  • Ben Monad

    What better way to keep your police State than by eliminating all means for citizens to protect themselves from the Authorities. Yes. Let’s make Fascism safe for Fascists. It’s your patriotic duty.

  • Anon1

    So Gorgon McDoom has waded into the EU debate, thus securing tens of thousands more votes for Leave.

    All we need now is for Juncker to pay a visit.

  • Macky

    Two from the man in the Embassy;

    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/wikileaks-founder-assange-backs-brexit/news-story/098ef1fce6a87096b21fca731e1e5f80

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jun/12/wikileaks-to-publish-more-hillary-clinton-emails-julian-assange

    Interesting insight that the Government is repeatedly using the EU as political cover, and that he doesn’t think Clinton.will be indicted, but that the FBI might get concession instead, so I wonder what these could be ?

    • Ben Monad

      The European Arrest Warrant sounds like there is no more need for extradition treaties, as though INTERPOL could just go grab someone and render us all speechless again.

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