No Trump, No Clinton, No NATO 388

Marina Hyde’s vicious and spiteful attack on Susan Sarandon and the Green Party points to the real danger of anti-Trump protest next week being hijacked by the neo-con warmonger franchise. The idea that those of us who do not want arch warmonger Clinton in power are therefore supporters of Trump is intellectually risible and politically dishonest.

Yesterday the OPCW reported that, contrary to US and UK assertions in the UN security council, there was no nerve agent attack on jihadist-held Douma by the Syrian government, precisely as Robert Fisk was execrated by the entire media establishment for pointing out. The OPCW did find some traces of chlorine compounds, but chlorine is a very commonly used element and you have traces of it all over your house. The US wants your chicken chlorinated. The OPCW said it was “Not clear” if the chlorine was weaponised, and it is plain to me from a career in diplomacy that the almost incidental mention is a diplomatic sop to the UK, US and France, which are important members of the OPCW.

Trump’s reaction to yet more lying claims by the UK government funded White Helmets and Syrian Observatory, a reaction of missile strikes on alleged Syrian facilities producing the non-existent nerve agent, was foolish. May’s leap for British participation was unwise, and the usual queue of Blairites who stood up as always in Parliament to support any bombing action, stand yet again exposed as evil tools of the military industrial complex.

Hillary Clinton, true to form, wanted more aggressive military action than was undertaken by Trump. Hillary has been itching to destroy Syria as she destroyed Libya. Libya was very much Hillary’s war and – almost unreported by the mainstream media – NATO bombers carried out almost 14,000 bombing sorties on Libya and devastated entire cities.

Sirte, Libya, after NATO bombing

The destruction of Libya’s government and infrastructure directly caused the Mediterranean boat migrant crisis, which has poisoned the politics of much of the European Union.

Donald Trump has not started any major war. He has been more restrained in military action than any US President since Jimmy Carter. My own view is (and of course it is impossible to know for sure) that, had Hillary been in power, Syria would already have been totally destroyed, the Cold War with Russia would be at mankind threatening levels, and nuclear tension with North Korea would be escalating.

“He hasn’t destroyed mankind yet” is faint praise for anyone. Being less of an existential danger to mankind than Hillary Clinton is a level achieved by virtually the entire population of the planet. I am not supporting Trump. I am condemning Clinton. I too, like Susan Sarandon, would have voted for Jill Stein were I an American.

So do protest against Trump. But do so under the banner No Trump! No Clinton! No NATO! And if any Clintonite or Blairite gets up to address you, tell them very loudly where to get off. I remember the hijacking of the Make Poverty History campaign by Brown, Darling and Campbell on behalf of their banker friends. Don’t let that happen again.

Or here is an even better idea.

Escape the Trump visit completely. Rather than stand penned in and shouting slogans at a police van parked right in front of you, turn your back on all of that and come join me at the Doune the Rabbit Hole Festival from 13 to 15 July. As our regulars know, this blog has been intimately connected with running the Festival from the start. This year is much bigger, with the Levellers, Akala, Atari Teenage Riot, Peatbog Faeries, and literally scores of other bands, and a great array of other festival activities too, including for kids, who come free and get free drinks.

DTRH has no sponsorship, no advertising, no government money and no rip-offs – beer and cider from £3.50 a pint at the bars. It is very much an alternative lifestyle gathering, and I find spiritual renewal there in the glorious Stirlingshire countryside. (I know that sounds corny, but I do). Tickets are £90 for full weekend including camping, which I think makes it the cheapest festival on this level around. Or you can buy a cheaper day ticket and drop in just for the day. If tickets are too expensive or you fancy a different kind of fun, you can volunteer, including to come and work with me in the bar, though there are a whole range of other tasks to be done if you don’t fancy that. Volunteers get in free and get fed in return for one six hour shift a day.

I really do hope I will see some of you there – it looks set to be a glorious weekend. Forget stress, forget Trump and hang out with nice people!

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388 thoughts on “No Trump, No Clinton, No NATO

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  • Clydebuilt

    I’ve just heard BBC Radio Shortbread, Bill Whiteford claim that Bill Jamieson of the Scotsman voted YES in the 2014 Independence Referendum.

    Jamison has just agreed to this , his explanation is that independence would force Scotland to face up to economic reality.
    He’s an economic advisor to Ruth Davidson.
    Unless I’m mistaken doesn’t BJ live in England’s West Country.

  • Emily Tock

    The claim that unemployment in the US is down is a canard. The US government asks questions re employment to establish its bogus unemployment stats like the following: Are you employed? If you are not employed, are you looking for work? If you are not looking because you’ve given up, you are counted as ‘out of the workforce’ and so don’t count. Also, if you have been on unemployment long enough to run out of unemployment benefits, you are no longer counted. Also, being employed for 1 hour a week counts as being employed. It’s all bread and circuses, especially if you can only get 28 hours a week at Wal-mart or Amazon at $9 or $12 dollars an hour (if you’re lucky!) and have very kindly been given WIC and Food Stamp forms by your benevolent employer because you are so impoverished, even if you have two or three different part-time jobs, that you qualify for food aid, which, by the way, amidst all the sound and fury of the immigration cruelties going on currently, the Congress just voted to slash by billions of dollars. Welcome to the free and democratic shining city on the hill.

    • giyane


      The same is true here in the UK but we don’t call it a canard. It is a direct lie by the Tories. I work in the construction trade and I have never had permanent employment, just zero hours. Easy come, easy go. I am tethered to the state only by having a limited company through I am taxed and through which I claim my business expenses. When we had a Labour government on the other hand, they would not accept my existence in this floating form because left wing dogma did not approve of right wing dogma rules.

      Sadly Jeremy Corbyn has not yet understood how much people hate being pushed this way and that by political dogma. This is our livelihood. There are armies of Left wing municipal staff whose mindset is out of date, who would bankrupt the workforce if they changed the rules. Simply put , they hate the self-employed.

        • Emily Tock

          I’m not sure this is a right/left issue vis a vis the US, as there IS no true left in the US. Both R and D administrations engage in this kind of manipulation of labour statistics. In truth, there is only one party in the US – the oligarchy/corporatist party. And I’m fairly confident this can be applied to most of the world…

          • Herbie

            “In truth, there is only one party in the US – the oligarchy/corporatist party. And I’m fairly confident this can be applied to most of the world…”


            Adam Curtis made a documentary for the BBC, “Hypernormalisation”.


            Very very enjoyable watch and instructive in the ways of the world.

            Very stylish is Adam, but anyway. It explains how you construct a modern democracy, political parties and so on.

            You create your left and right, arguing this and that irrelevant nonsense, but all the while both are under central control. Sound familiar.

            This is aimed at Russia, but it could equally be aimed at any modern democracy.

            The Caspian Report did a much shorter version on the construction of the political system in Iran. Same thing:


            This is how modern democracies are managed.

      • Andyoldlabour

        Giyane, for many people the “easy come, easy go” doesn’t pay the bills, zero hours contracts are nothing to cheer, just another way for employers to have their cake and eat it, and encourage an ever widening gap between rich and poor.

      • Squeeth

        Utter guff, Corbyn’s problem is that he isn’t dogmatic enough, hence his toleration of the fascist wing of the PLP and the zionist-antisemite witch-finders, who persecute people for wanting a fair deal for Palestinians (starting with getting their country back).

        • Baalbek

          Spot on. Corbyn is not at all the “radical” he is made out to be by the establishment media and his political opponents. He is far too accommodating of the people who wish to destroy him, his policy prescriptions are decidedly restrained and, as a leader, he is not nearly assertivre enough. Those hoping he will pull the UK out of its current neoliberal nosedive will be sorely disappointed.

        • Andyoldlabour

          I totally agree Squeeth, but what have we come to if we have to criticise someone for being a basically decent human being. The people trying to take Corbyn down are like hyenas – MSM, Blairites, Tories etc. They are the people who have dragged us into wars without end, who are totally responsible for the destruction of countries – Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, and who have forged alliances with radical jihadists.

      • Tony_0pmoc


        I don’t hate the self employed. I think the self employed are magnificent. My wife has been self employed for much of her life, and my son has been self employed since the age of 13.

        It is so very much harder being self employed, rather than working for a large company or the government.

        The self employed have to do everything – not only their skilled job, but all the monstrous bureaucracy, accountancy, marketing etc, and nagging and threatening their customers with discontinuation if they don’t pay their bills.

        The one big advantage of being self employed, is that you are not working for a complete and utter total moron.

        I would recommend it to anyone, who has the drive and determination.

        I personally, have never done it, but that in no way changes my respect for the people who do.


        • N_

          The one big advantage of being self employed, is that you are not working for a complete and utter total moron.

          That is funny 🙂

          Some self-employed people are great; others are liars and tricksters. Many double-glazing salesmen are self-employed…

          • Charles Bostock

            “Some self-employed people are great; others are liars and tricksters. ”

            Absolutely right.

            As are some employed people working in the state sector, some employed people working on the private sector, some unemployed people, some senior citizens, some students – in fact, some of every category of humankind!!

        • Prospero

          “The one big advantage of being self employed, is that you are not working for a complete and utter total moron.”

          Except if the self-employed person is him/herself “a complete and utter moron”? Many are.

          Many others are simply being conned.

          Much ‘self-employment’ is phoney – a means for main contractors to avoid their responsibilities and maximise their profits.

          It is disguised casualisation – and involves much tax-avoidance/evasion – corporation tax, rather than income tax – and cooked books to avoid even that.

      • milliem

        The Mirror’s website has a story of an HGV driver who was promised £12.50 an hour by a recruitment agency but ended up getting £7.85 an hour after the money went through an umbrella company. He had to pay the employer’s National Insurance contribution as well as the employer’s Apprenticeship Levy.

        No doubt, in Giyane’s mind, it’s all Corbyn’s fault.

  • N_

    Boris Johnson, David Davis, Michael Gove, Sajid Javid, David Gauke – any word from them yet on how great they think “the cabinet’s” Brexit position is?

    I note the Evening Standard is calling it a “deal”. In this tabloid muck-culture of “deal and no deal”, it seems they expect their readers to forget that a deal is a type of agreement between two sides. The cabinet position is not a deal. It is a decision to make an offer to the other side in the negotiations.

    And is there any word yet from the political editors on how the offer is a complete piss-take? Why? Because the EU has made it clear that Britain the single market includes freedom of movement.

    Note carefully that getting food into the country is bit by bit becoming the key issue.

    • Hatuey

      I’ve explained the purpose of May, Brexit, and the end goal in it all many times on here.

      The hidden hand in all this remains more or less invisible to the naked eye. Basically a team of crackpot paedophile aristocrats from England have sided with some homeless internationalists who have a requirement for laundering swag. The intention is to create a sort of Hong Kong on the coast of Europe — with low or no tax, zero welfare, relaxed regulations, etc.

      The process we are calling ‘the Brexit negotiations’ with May at the helm is a necessary charade for them. When the time comes, and it will, the process will be scuppered or abandoned and they will say something like ” we tried being reasonable, May tried to compromise, we did everything we could to get a deal, but those nasty Europeans refused to be reasonable…”

      Everything that has happened recently in regards to Brexit supports the above. The media are prepping people accordingly with stories of how compromising and earnest May is, but when you look at this so called deal they have made within the Tory party not only is it unworkable, elaborate crap (as intended), it has already been rejected by the EU.

      If the EU were minded to be really malicious towards these crackpots they would accept the Tory proposals.

      • giyane

        100% agree and Craig prophesied the same before the EU referendum.

        But if the launderers ( ISIS oil, Libyan assets, EU slush etc etc need this offshore Hong Kong why will they say no to Brexit? Surely they will say yes if what you say is true?

        • Hatuey

          Giyane, as usual, I have trouble comprehending what you say. I didn’t mention ISIS oil, Libyan assets, or EU slush. And I have no idea what any of those people think of Brexit.

          It’s clear that there are powerful and largely hidden forces at work, though. Something like 90% of the tabloids, for example, if not more, agitated for Brexit and are foreign owned. Then there’s the twisted English aristocrats who have basically hijacked UK politics. Beyond those two groups, it’s hard to see who else is involved, even if we could probably guess.

          I don’t discount the role of the ordinary English voter who was stupid enough to fall for the lies and spin and voted to Brexit. There was a lot of veiled racism involved too and thick people always seem to find racism seductive; language, skin colour, and culture require no effort so I can see why these things appeal to dolts.

          I have mixed feelings on Brexit. Part of me hopes they go ahead with their crazy plans and the people who supported it get taught a lesson. I think England as a country has some vile characteristics and values, politically speaking, and maybe it’s time to face up to them. The US is the same.

          Economics, as I said, has exacerbated and accentuated all this. History shows that people are much more likely to turn to extremes when times are hard.

          The post-imperial chickens — unlike football — are definitely coming home to roost in Dear Old Blighty.

          • Jack

            Actually, I voted for Brexit. I recognized the lies and spin for what they were – I’m not stupid.

            I voted for Brexit because the EU is deeply undemocratic and chronically corrupt. EU policy is largely written by industry lobbyists, rather than by the has-been political failures in the Commission, who are supposed to write it. And because I don’t want anything to do with the disgraceful treatment the EU has meted out to Greece, and their appalling backing of the Francoists in Spain against the democratic leadership in Catalonia.

            I understood perfectly well that it was a bad idea to have the Tories conduct the process; that they would use it as a way make the rich richer, at the expense of the rest of us. And I fully understood that the fact the referendum was really an attempt to resolve internal divisions among the Tories would result in a pretty bad deal.

            I didn’t vote for Brexit out of xenophobia; but I do think a completely unrestricted market in labour is a scheme to keep pay low and profits high.
            I voted for Brexit despite reservations about the timing and the Tories’ agenda, because I felt that this might be our last chance to escape. Every previous national referendum about EU treaties has been bitterly opposed by Brussels, and overturned on a re-run. Brussels is not keen on decentralized democracy.

            Therefore I remain in favour of Brexit, even if that means we “crash out” without a deal. In particular, I hope this nonsense about some kind of bespoke customs thing gets kicked into touch by Barnier and Co. before any more time is wasted on it.

            I appreciate the problems with borders in Ireland. But I also note that the GFA was never supposed to be permanent; and I note that the party negotiating Brexit for us would be forced into a General Election but for the support of a dozen bigoted dinosaurs.

            The ScotsNats should note well this Brussels control-freakery; “If the UK brexits, you Scots will be forced to brexit also”. And if you choose to rejoin, you will be forced to go through a normal membership application (like what they have told Catalonia), including the requirement that you join the Euro.

            People you disagree with are not always stupid.

          • Hatuey

            FAO: Jack

            I didn’t say that people I disagreed with were stupid. I said many stupid people were seduced by the veiled racism of the pro-Brexit arguments. Everything you typed here in an attempt to justify your support for Brexit has bolstered my view on that.

            I see that you were careful to avoid using phrases like “the new world order” and “globalists”, but it can’t be coincidence that your arguments for Brexit align almost perfectly with views espoused by people like Alex Jones.

            People educated by YouTube appear so flimsy when held to account by those of us who took the time to read books and go through university.

            Around 80% of what you said about the EU is basically emotional rather than substantive or reasoned, and I have no desire to play a part in your further education on that score, but your point about the free market of labour is a good, typical example of your erroneous ways.

            It is noteworthy that the very few protections that UK workers have today were “imposed” on the British government against its will by the EU. After Brexit that protection will be gone completely.

            Meanwhile successive UK governments have been chiselling away at labour laws and tribunal rights making it virtually impossible for employers in the UK to be charged for unfair dismissals.

            It takes a special sort of stupidity to suspend reality when it comes to issues like this, especially when you purport to champion those sorts of issues.

            As for this — “because I felt that this might be our last chance to escape” — please tell me who you mean when you say “our”? As I have proven above, the last thing we need is another useful idiot standing up for us.

            Democracy would possibly be worth trying if it wasn’t for useful idiots who fell for University of YouTube crap.

          • Greg Park

            You cannot call people who disagree with you idiots and boast about having been to university and expect to be taken seriously.

            Surely some part of you knows that?

          • Dave Price

            “People educated by YouTube appear so flimsy when held to account by those of us who took the time to read books and go through university.”

            A superb summary of the Thatcher-Blair years ‘aspirational’ lower middle class. Wonderfully self-unaware stuff.

          • Hatuey

            FAO: Greg Park

            I didn’t boast about University. I don’t think University is something to boast about. You are either educated or you’re not. But, at the end of the day, if I hire someone to wire my house, fix my car, or navigate a ship that I am on, I would prefer that they were properly educated and trained to do the job. Why should it be any different with political, philosophical, or historical matters?

            It’s interesting to me that so many halfwits think they can watch a couple of YouTube videos on ‘The New World order’ and think they know what’s going on. That’s the spirit of the age for me; hoards of numbskulls going around with a couple of diabolical ideas rattling around in their empty skulls, ideas that they picked up on YouTube or Facebook, shouting the odds about foreigners taking their jobs.

            Jack’s comment is a very good example. On one hand he purports to have supported Brexit because of the EU’s detrimental impact on labour in terms of driving down wages etc. That’s the very sort of ill-founded crap that was carefully peddled online and elsewhere in the run-up to the Brexit vote, and it doesn’t stand up to the slightest bit of serious scrutiny — EU workers are, without any shadow of doubt, the most pampered and protected on the planet. In actual fact, they are the most pampered and protected in all human history.

            I hope Brexit voters like Jack get exactly what they voted for. In fact, let’s go large with that — let’s have the hardest of hard Brexits. I absolutely guarantee that life for the average English worker will be markedly more deprived and miserable when that happens. And if they can afford Internet access, I wonder what the videos they watch on YouTube will be telling them in say 5 years.

      • Screaminkid

        Yes this so called miracle deal has already been rejected by Barnier, yet the Tories & their media propaganda insist it is a revelation. The UK media machine has changed , changed and changed again to arrive at this deal which they hold up to us proclaming it is a new, yet those of us who have followed the Tory Gov maccinations know it is just the SAME LIE repeated, only with different words to fool the sheep?

    • Sharp Ears

      Well Poison Gove didn’t stop talking on Marr but as to what he actually said, I can’t help you. He and Marr got shirty with each other at one stage, accusing each other of retailing fake news. So funny.
      Not on the iPlayer yet but there are three tweets feat. Gove on Twitter.

      Allegation of “black hole Brexit” by European Research Group of pro-Brexit Tories dismissed by @michaelgove #marr

      Environment Secretary @michaelgove says the cabinet needs to show “collective responsibility” after Chequers talks #marr
      Is the cabinet united?

      The government’s Brexit plan “honours” the Leave vote says @michaelgove

      PS Why has Gove got that handle? Parents and teachers called him toxic for his wrecking of the education system. Remember he was campaign manager for Boris Johnson in the leadership contest
      ‘On 30 June 2016, Gove, who was campaign manager for Boris Johnson’s drive to become Prime Minister, withdrew his support on the morning that Johnson was due to declare, and announced his own candidacy in the leadership election. In the first round of voting, Gove came third to Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom. He was eliminated from the leadership race on the second ballot on 7 July 2016.’

      No honour or principles among thieves.

      • giyane

        Gove is the Chemical Ali of the Tory party. Sorry he is MP for Surrey. I will never forget when Chemical Ali stood trial and was accused of the murder of many Iraqis his only reply was Alhamdulillah / praise be to God, meaning yes and I’d do the same again tomorrow. Defiantly unrepentant. Saddam was installed by the CIA but he knew full well that the CIA would undermine him using Islamists jihadists so he killed many suspects, possibly on false evidence.

        “Poison Gove” presumably comes from the Steve bell cartoon of him “taking back control” by self-injecting a lethal injection with his free hand giving the thumbs up. Whatever revolting plan the Bilderbergers have for the UK, Gove is the willing slave or genie in the bottle to serve their nefarious purposes. Iraqi CIA jihadists were strung upside down and electrocuted while being thrashed to near death at the command of Henry Kissinger who said “some people confuse covert operations with social work”.

        Look at Cameron, how he was put through the mincer as thanks for destroying Libya. Sooner or later Gove and May, Johnson and Fox, Davis and Double-Barrell will be put through the combine harvester and used for bedding deep litter cows.Unfortunately we do not possess the same level of evil imagination that would allow us to predict what evil outcome is planned by NATO. they know they’re going to die anyway so what does it matter if they serve the Great Satan or die of lost marbles in their deepest old age?

  • Rhys Jaggar

    Will you be like Wimbledon Centre Court and ban the World Cup Final at DTRH?! I guess if the festival is full of Scottish Nationalists that is just a sideshow anyway….

    I must say the argument ‘if you hate XXXX, you must love YYYY’ to be the most risible on earth. The correct question to someone opining ‘I hate XXXX’ is: ‘So what do you prefer?’ Questions are preludes to possible enlightenment, reactive statements are often demonstrations of prejudice.

    Me not liking Glenlivet Scotch does not preclude me from enjoying drams of Highland Park, Lagavulin, Glenmorangie, Laphroiag and several others.

    Thinking Boris Johnson a somewhat reprehensible self-serving twit does not make me worship at the altar of either Nicola Sturgeon or Tony Blair.

    • Andyoldlabour

      Rhys, exactly right. People tend to be pigeon holed too quickly nowadays. I have been called a Trump supporter (I hate the guy) because I vehemently hate Hilary Clinton. I tend to listen to Corbyn and Sanders, because they seem to be more in touch with real World issues and have empathy with others.
      I think the EU is a totally corrupt organisation, yet I love visiting the individual countries which make up the EU, because of the people and their culture.

      • Andyoldlabour

        I have been accused of that many times Tatanya. to the extent that I cannot login to comment on the Independent and Guardian for a couple of months.
        It started with comments being deleted because I was questioning the government line, no abuse, no swearing etc.

  • Vivian O'Blivion

    Trump v’s Clinton must be considered on a case by case basis. One instance where Trump has almost certainly proven better than Clinton was likely to have been is Syria.

    The Syrian government is rolling up armed opposition in the SW of the country. Rebel factions in Deraa province are striking deals to hand in heavy and medium weapons and return to their homes under Russian assurances of safety. This mirrors the events of Douma and since there have not been accounts of government reprisals in Douma, it appears trust in the good faith of the Ba’ath administration is growing. Refugees have even begun to trickle back from abroad.
    ps. Middle East Monitor is not sympathetic with the Syrian government.

  • Thomas_Stockmann

    The OPCW interim report makes clear that the initial security concerns which delayed the investigators’ entry into Douma were well-founded and accepted by the UN and OPCW. Jonathan Freedland claimed at the time that this was more evidence of Russian skulduggery. He is one of the first to denounce “fake news” when it suits his purpose. So much for the newspapal infallibility of the Guardian.

    • SO.

      Actually the OPCW interim report doesn’t even give a reasonable basis to conclude the possibility of either gaseous or liquid chlorine.

      The cl-organics present are easily explainable as those normally found in chlorinated water and domestic cleaning products and more tellingly the basement where one would reasonably expect a heavier than air gas such as chlorine to accumulate shows nothing unusual what so ever. It’s also quite telling that lab 03 didn’t see fit to really mention any of those compounds at all which leads me to believe they considered them to be more or less irrelevant.

      The most unusual find actually being the presence of chloral hydrate in the bedroom on the sheets and pillows considering it’s more commonly known as the date rape drug “Mickey Finn”.

      Personally I suspect the results were included and the report released as it was simply to give the media something to get creative with.

      • Tatyana
        I think that explosives and chlorines were taken from those used gas shells.
        What is contradcting in the ‘attack’ is why helicopter took gas shells and flew directly to a buildng crouded with women and children, who sheltered there at upper floor not in the basement.
        Why never adult men are gassed? One single male terrorist? Who are those alleged casualties from neighbouring country? Are they males? What is that country? More questions and no answers.
        I’m sorry to say, but it looks like those women and kids were killed by terrorists and used gas shells are planted into the building.

        • SO.

          The explosives don’t really mean anything much. 2.4.6.TNT is going to be absolutely everywhere anyway.

          The interviews from country X will most likely be from people interviewed in turkey.

          The lab results combined with pictures from the site tell an interesting story.

          1. The original circulated picture show’s the cylinder on the bed covered in dust.

          This implies it was placed on the bed BEFORE the hole in the ceiling was made.

          2. The pictures of the cylinder head indicates the valve was intact.

          This indicates an explosive release of chlorine gas was impossible.

          3. OPCW dry swap of the valve shows nothing. A wet swab indicated the results of water chlorination. (ie trace result).

          4. OPCW swab of the wall behind the bed indicates nothing at all.

          5. OPCW swabs of the bed clothes indicated Dichloroacetic acid, trichloroacetic acid, chloral hydrate, trichlorophenol, (from lab 2)

          Dichloroacetic acid, trichloroacetic acid are by products from water chlorination. chloral hydrate is a date rape drug/sedative and trichlorophenol is commonly found in lots of things. it’s a preservative mostly but less commonly 2,4,6 trichlorophenol was also used as an antiseptic.

          6. OPCW swab of the pillows also indicated tetrachlorophenol. Another preservative and antibacterial.

          At a completely wild guess given the limited information available (need lots more) i’d suspect someone used that bedroom for the treatment of sick or injured people before dumping an empty gas cylinder on the bed then going up to the roof and knocking a hole in it.

  • Crispa

    I was interested in Craig’s comment on the OPCW report that mention of chlorine was a “diplomatic sop”, which of course has been used by the msm to highlight that aspect of the report. Annex 3 summarises the analyses of 20 environmental samples which were thought to be of “greatest probative value”. Each laboratory’s findings are summarised in one of two columns. The summary in the right – hand column is unequivocal: 16 / 20 clear statements of “No CWC-scheduled chemicals detected” (which presumably includes the possible use of chlorine). In the other four it states “no nerve agents detected” but cites the presence of other chemicals, including traces of explosives (as could be expected in shelled buildings). I am no scientist but I can’t see where even chlorinated products feature in the following.

    16.Sample of grouting from a wall containing Triethanolamine (which is used to help products stick together like sun tan cream, washing up liquid, paints and general cleaning products and presumably grouting!)
    17.Clothing from a Victim containing trinitrotoluene (an explosive) Triethanolamine (see above)
    19 – Scarf from the basement containing Triethanolamine, “AmgardV19” phosphonate (which is a flame retardant) ,malathion, (used in common insecticide sprays)
    20 A stuffed animal collected from the basement containing Triethanolamine and Trinitrotoluene*.

    Samples 17 – 20 were described as having been received from witnesses but the report does not say if the witnesses were part of the Douma sample or those interviewed in “Country X”. The witness sampling numbers are clearly lopsided with of the 34 interviewed only 13 coming from Douma and the other 21 from those in Country X.– presumably rebel evacuees and “white helmets”!

    • giyane

      I’m no scientist, but as an electrician we do spend a lot of time on making our work tidy, symmetrical and straight because it does look as though you know your stuff. It’s called b***s***.It neither makes the safety devices work better, nor does it increase the pay. It simply serves to convince the unlettered observer that the job has been done professionally.

      In reality it is game set and match for USUKIS use of proxy Al Qaida and ISIS Islamists. Nobody in the entire world now believes that the White Helmets are anything other than part of USUKIS propaganda.
      I still remain open to the suggestion that the real purpose of the bullshit might possibly be part of a bigger scam involving both Russia and Saudi Arabia , in trying to eliminate as many would-be jihadists as possible by creating a war arena in the Middle East.

      But we need those jihadists later to overthrow USUKIS.

  • Vivian O'Blivion

    Private company Black Cube working for notorious, right wing, anti-Semite Victor Orban. The company said to be staffed by ex military intelligence officers from a Mediterranean country, used cover names and fake backgrounds to contact targets associated with George Soros. They used the same methods to target actress Rose McGowan to try and find damaging material on her at the behest of Harvey Weinstein. Also targeted family members of the team conducting talks on the Iran nuclear deal back in the Obama days.
    What complete bastards!

    • giyane

      Viv o’Bliv

      Put in your mind that necessary cover to do Zionism is to be an anti-Semite. It’s like art. They say there is nothing original left. It’s all pick and mix.

      My advice is keep it simple. Every single Iraqi, Somali, Palestinain and Pakistani etc etc, know that USUKIS are the only ones that plant sectarian bombs in order to divide and rule. Every single man woman and child knows this, but we in the West don’t know this. time to finally fathom the satanic deception of old-colonial and neo-colonial politics. we gave it up for a short time after the near catastrophe of two world wars, and then Thatcher brought it back against the Falklands. BTW Russia saved us from our own sh*t then and is doing it now in the Middle East.

    • Sharp Ears

      Make sure not to omit the letter ‘Y’ from Avi’s family name.

      Black Cube is a private intelligence agency, which is based in London, Paris and Tel Aviv, and is the trading name of BC Strategy Ltd. The company was founded in 2010 by former Israeli intelligence officers Dan Zorella (in Hebrew: דן זורלא) and Avi Yanus (in Hebrew: אבי ינוס). Its employees include former members of Israeli intelligence units, including Aman, Mossad and Shin Bet, as well as legal and financial experts.’

      I feel quite soiled just from reading through that stuff.

      ‘ A select group of veterans from the Israeli elite intelligence units that specialises in tailored solutions to complex business and litigation challenges.’

      Advisory Board:
      The late Meir Dagan
      Yohanan Danino
      Giora Eiland
      Asher Tishler
      Paul Reyniers
      Golan Malka
      Itiel Maayan
      Mati Leshem
      The above all have biogs. Scary.
      How can you have an honorary president who’s dead. Are they mad?

      Honorary President
      The late Meir Dagan
      As one of the most illustrious and successful directors of the Mossad (2002-2012), a post to which he was appointed by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Mr Dagan cemented his position as a leading thinker and innovator in the intelligence community. His strategic approach, leadership, operational skills and unique mind-set provided for his prior successes in his military career, as counter terrorism and national security advisor to the Prime Minister, and saw him awarded the medal of Gallantry in 1973.’

      How many Palestinians have died and been tortured at their hands?

  • N_

    The Moggster rises…

    Not a peep from most of the ERGers in the cabinet, nor from Boris Johnson.

    How this is choreographed with the football, I don’t know. And Amesbury and Salisbury. But we shall soon find out.

    • giyane

      I was at university with an adopter of posh Oxford tones and I once borrowed his black suit. I was surprised by the rank odour and large capacity of the crutch area. Does that mean I suffer from ferremone envy of the country’s professional liars? No, because I understood completely and permanently from that one pair of trousers that the ruling classes are incapable OF TRUTH. Double-barrell, treble barrell, ddouble pong, tttreble pong is not important to me . All I need to know is that they are professional liars.

    • N_

      You know how Rees-Mogg keeps saying the Tories in government have never chosen a new leader who hasn’t been running one of the great offices of state? (Which, by the way, narrows it down because Boris Johnson certainly won’t get the leadership and probably won’t even run for it, and Philip Hammond won’t run either, so there’s only Sajid Javid.)

      This might explain why they’ve choreographed the whole Chequers thing.

      First, it paves the way for a “challenge from outside the cabinet”, because most of the cabinet are discredited insofar as none of them have walked out in rejection of Theresa May’s BINO. Sure, you can walk out from a cabinet meeting at 10 Downing Street too, and Michael Heseltine did, but showing Chequers with the aerial shots and the high ceilings, and cloaking it in stories about taxis and the one-mile driveway, made the scenery far more dramatic, and there were more than the usual number of opportunities to say the word “Cabinet”. Cabinet, cabinet, cabinet, cabinet, cabinet.

      So the Moggster can say that the cabinet is poop. He can say it’s therefore a time for breaking precedent, for standing for the leadership from outside it, because such supine behaviour, such total capitulation to the French foreigners EU has been unheard of in all of the Tory party’s glorious history, and he would not want to be remembered as the man who coined it from his hedge fund sat on his hands and did nothing. Come the man, come the hour.

      Second, and less importantly, by giving a bit of a “grand country house” feel to Theresa May it might help her a little bit in a contest against the Moggster even though of course she’s from nothing like that kind of background. My hunch is she will put up a fight because there is no other serious contender who hasn’t got rabies.

      Whether she will get a chance is another matter. The 1922 Committee meets tomorrow. Will there be a vote of confidence? Or will they just hand her her cards and she’ll be offski?

  • Sharp Ears

    Will Hurst of the Architects’ Journal is still going strong on Boris Johnson’s failed Garden Bridge project and it’s £multi million smoke and mirrors..

    Will Hurst has been on the case ere long but of course, the crooks are protected by each other. If it was us, we would be having our collars felt. I would like to see Johnson in leg irons breaking up stone in a hot climate somewhere like Robben Island. He would soon become less of a heap.

  • Trowbridge H. Ford

    Looks to me that the Home Secretary has jumped to conclusions about barbaric Russia having been responsible for the novichok attack in Amesbury.

    • Tony_0pmoc

      Trowbridge H. Ford,

      They all give the impression of being a bunch of complete and utter morons.

      Glad, I never worked for them.

      I have occasionally come across some idiots in authority – but these people have done their utmost best to besmirch the reputation of My Country.

      Not in my name.

      I didn’t vote for them.

      I voted for Jeremy Corbyn.



    • N_

      Agreed. Even asking who was responsible for the Novichok attack in Amesbury is jumping to three conclusions before the question is answered. I dearly hope Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess have family and friends supporting them. Are they supposed to be conscious or comatose?

  • Sharp Ears

    How much has the World Cup cost the Russian (people)?

    Voice of America (anti Russian prop) says $15billion

    Much less according to the Torygraph. $10.7billion ++

    Like the Olympics, there will be redundant stadia.

    This is Athens, only 14 years on –
    Those Olympic games cost the now impoverished Greek people €9 billion.

  • quasi_verbatim

    SadJav in Salisbury: the Opera.

    It ain’t over ’til the Russkies sing.

    • Ort

      I’m in the USA, and our corrupt and decadent political class is also desperately trying to save face, bolster its fortunes, and keep the public confused and paranoid by pinning things on the Russians.

      Their approach is simply to pin, pin, pin first and fabricate pretexts, insinuations, and innuendo as they go along. This, quite appropriately, resembles the Duchess’s “moral” in “Alice in Wonderland”, here paraphrased: “Take care of the pinning, and the ‘hows’ will take care of themselves.”

      As we have seen in both the US and UK, the wild and woolly accusations are either manifestly incredible, and are eventually either disproven, retracted, or like the Skripal case, dangle indefinitely in the wind.

      But the game is to keep on “pinning”– somewhat like one of those deranged persons who goes about the streets randomly sticking passersby with a sewing needle or safety pin. The “hows” come and go, but the pinning remains the same. 😉

  • Ben

    Arron Banks’ Leave.EU campaign team met with Russian embassy officials as many as 11 times in the run-up to the EU referendum and in the two months beyond, documents seen by the Observer suggest – seven more times than Banks has admitted. The same documents suggest the Russian embassy extended a further four invitations to Brexit’s biggest funder, but it is not known if they were accepted.

    It is the third time the number of such meetings has been revised upwards. For two years, Banks insisted his only contact with the Russian government consisted of one “boozy lunch” with the Russian ambassador.

  • Sharp Ears

    A modern take on Percy Bysshe Shelley taken from today’s Poetry on Sunday on DV

    Shelley in the Village
    by David Penner / July 8th, 2018

    Slaves of America: wherefore gaze into the
    Soulless screen from birth unto death, and
    From dawn to disintegrating light? Wherefore
    Love not your own flesh and look upon your
    Neighbor with fear and the bitterest hate?

    Wherefore sleep, while with your own bread in
    Agony earned, millions are slaughtered by the
    Angels of unconscionable doom? Wherefore in
    Insouciance lie when health care is sold as if it
    Were a bag of trinkets? Have ye public education,

    Single-payer, laws, or jobs? Have ye communities,
    Unions, or leisure? The soul ye discard, another
    Eats, the mind ye abandon another defiles; the
    Doom ye know yields the power of the kleptocrat,

    For when the night comes softly, the shackles are
    Duly placed on the limbs of ye; wherefore meekly lie
    Down in submission like a well-trained dog while

    The country’s wealth is plundered by a pack of
    Savages, nay wild cannibals? Wherefore read lies
    Penned by the devil, and cannot think, cannot feel,
    And cannot see? Wherefore wage war with the

    Opposite sex and embrace not love’s eternal bower,
    While books are burned, children are tortured, and
    Solidarity abandoned, to kiss the foot of Satan, and
    To prostrate your soul at the altar of untrammeled

  • Republicofscotland

    So it might appear that the PM’s get together at Chequers, could be shot down in flames by the EU before it’s presented.

    “But before her ministers have even agreed to the deal, EU officials told The Independent the white paper would be “dead on arrival” in Brussels if, as expected, it proposes that the UK remain in the EU’s single market for goods, but not services. ”

    No deal, WTO, here we come. The M20, will need more lorry parks.

  • Nick

    I’m wondering if anyone here has worked in mid-upper management, (which I consider to include our political classes) where they weren’t surrounded by self-importance, incompetence, greed, deceit and general back-stabbery? Mind you, it appears to be one of the things the UK is especially good (ie bad) at.

  • SO.

    @Tatyana : #comment-759690

    C2CL4 is commonly used in dry cleaning since it is an excellent organic solvent.

    However i’d be cautious of using it as a base to conclude anything from since C2CL4 is normally manufactured at high temperatures (couple of hundred degrees) by the processing of hexachloroethane whereas trichloroacetate can be expected to already be present in processed water.

    erm.. sorry about not providing the link btw. I presumed everyone would already have it.

    • Tatyana

      I’m no scientist, I just suppose those acides can be naturally found in textiles which had been chemically cleaned.
      It is described at chemcleaning machines repair forum, that chloracetic acides arise in tetrachlorethylene very easy in presence of water and air. I suppose a chemcleaned textile should develop it in natural way.

      Yet, I don’t think that chlorine traces can be found in a living block, but not found in a hospital. It is weird, hospitals must use chlorine-based disinfectors.

      • SO.

        Doesn’t matter to much if you’re a scientist or not since the question isn’t whether something is possible given chlorine chemistry. (which can be quite complex)

        The question is much simpler and is “can chlorine gas or liquid do this in situ in normal or even unusual circumstances?”.

        If the answer to that is *no* then the likelihood of the results indicating an actual gaseous chlorine weapon is negated.

        Don’t over think it.

  • Tatyana

    An interesting piece of information on Vil Mirzoyanov. He is Tatar national and activist for separating Tatarstan from Russia. In 2009 he visited Ankara, Turkey and there he was elected a prime-minister of ‘Tatar government in exile’.
    In this status he is up to this day. Information from his friend Fausia Bairamova, tatar writer and political activist.
    If you put this together with Crimean Tatars, you get another ‘pro’ possible ukrainian involvement into Skripals case.

    • Tatyana

      I see a clear link between qirimtatarlar (Crimean tatars) most part of this etnos lives in Turkey, then Mirzoyanov (contra-foreign-intelligence employee at Novichok lab) and turkish director general of OPCW with Porton Down being OPCW designated lab.
      Qirimtatarlar are mostly sunni muslims, and Assad is fighting with those in Syria. Their political activist are anti-russian and I think Crimea was intended for Turkish NATO naval base.

      • Tatyana

        Add, there was info on Skripals issued by British govt that they got a call intercepted from Syria about ‘two people left the house’ and ‘package delivered’.
        Regarding Turkey holding a big area in Syria (fighting kurds, Afrin) it can really be true about the call.
        And regarding their involvement in Douma attack investigation, I say they definetily have something about chemistry.
        Regarding they have downed russian aircraft, I can say they are not friends to Russia.

          • Emily Tock

            Good catch! And I’ve seen several pushes (no doubt from NED, VOA or other CIA backed NGOs) on social media re the ‘plight’ of Tatary in Crimea in the last week.

          • Tatyana

            Emily, I understand the filings of tatars, but they must realise Stalin is dead, USSR doesn’t exist, no communism any more. New times, new reality, it is better to negotiate and move to mutual benefits, then pouring out old offences and set people one against other.
            The position of tatars in Crimea now is better then in Ukraine, they got their land, they are widely presented in local and republican authorities, their language returned to schools. Live, create, prosper.

  • quasi_verbatim

    Unsurprising, that Grovel was first out slavering over May’s New Brexit Dispensation.

    This is the same Dispensation that Boris likened to “polishing a ****”, according to the ever-reliable Guardian although he, Boris, was “big about it” over dinner (the ****?).

    Anyway, Grovel has much experience of this activity.

  • Tony_0pmoc

    I just took my water pistol . It was very hot. My wife, and most of our family and friends turned up a little bIt later . It was just so hot, and brilliant, when Mum and our Grandchildren turned up at the pub this afternoon for the live gig.

    It was hot, sweet and sticky

    “Heavy Metal Kids – Montrose – Rock Candy”


  • mike

    The pre-Brexit British state can’t even do dirty tricks properly.

    A halfway decent media could have toppled the Maybot by now, not once, but thrice. The Manchester/Libya connection, the Salisbury/Amesbury fairy story, and the blocking of the ISC’s torture inquiry, were/are enough to end her.

    A proper investigation of any of those is long over due. Pity there are no corporate journalists left in the UK who would even entertain the idea. Not when the alternative, in England at least, is a socialist Labour Party.

  • Maywood

    Police have launched a murder inquiry after Dawn Sturgess, 44, died on Sunday evening at Salisbury District Hospital, Scotland Yard said.

    – Sky News

    • Sharp Ears

      She was a mother of three and was living in a hostel.

      We are told that Theresa May will be making a statement later tonight. We can guess the content. Basu has already said his two pennyworth.

      • Ross

        And of course in the midst of this manufactured crisis it simply won’t do for anyone to move to challenge May’s leadership.

        • N_

          I think many of us expected this horrible turn of events but we didn’t want to say so because we dearly hoped it wouldn’t happen.

          It makes sense for the Tories to conduct the ritual killing of a down-and-out to propitiate for themselves at this time of trouble. Those who really have their wits about them in Britain know that the Tories think all such people should die when there aren’t any Tory toilets they can be forced to scrub.

          RIP Dawn Sturgess. I didn’t know you, but you wll not be forgotten.

          Any Tory tears on this matter will be crocodile tears. And anybody on the left who wants to fight the Tories MUST say this.

      • Maywood

        I must say, I did more than hope. I assumed she would recover (they both would recover) as the Skripals did. I got rather a shock when I read that she had died.

        • Tatyana

          I may be obsessed, but..
          Date: 4th of a month
          Place: Salisbury park
          Target: white male+white female

          Is there something in it? Crazy Porton Down employee or the lab has just a sheduled event every 4 month.

          • N_

            @Tatyana – The involvement of the policeman this time was to paint the killing of a down-and-out as an “attack on Britain” which generally speaking wouldn’t otherwise be how Tories think, because they don’t think the lives of down-and-outs, and of unemployed people who aren’t down and out, are worth more than shit. Tories have no humanity. And they love the police.

            Most people living anywhere near Porton Down are white. That in each case it has been one male and one female may be significant.

            You should watch Theresa May’s response because there may be symbolic features of it that tie in with how you’ve been thinking.

  • Ross

    Poor Dawn Sturgess has served her purpose and has now been murdered by the state; I suspect her partner will be similarly done away with in due course.

    • DiggerUK

      That is not a balanced comment. She was in the care of the NHS. You seem to be claiming that the NHS have not only failed in their duty of care, but have got involved in a dirty conspiracy.
      I cannot support your position, and ask you to clarify, or withdraw…_

      • Ross

        As she or her partner were deemed to have been exposed both incidentally and accidentally there would not be the same kind of security which was deployed for the Skripals; very easy for someone with the right uniform to slip in, do the deed, and disappear into the night.

      • N_

        Listen to how you sound, @DiggerUK. You sound as though you can’t distinguish between the authority system and the public good.

        The universal healthcare system that the decent people in Britain all support, called the NHS, is not the same as the secret state. Do you really think the money-drenched senior medics in an area are going to stand up to MI5 and Cobra and say “fuck national security: I must as a person employed by the NHS put my patient’s interest first”, as if it is some kind of TV show? That’s not how the mentality of a person in such authority works. “Duty of care” my arsehole.

    • Ian

      Do you mean she accidentally picked up a container of the original toxin, had a weak immune system which wasn’t strong enough to keep her alive – that’s murder in your book, is it? The same person who posters here were referring to as ‘lowlife’.

        • N_

          @Pyotr. More or less, yes. Certainly for it to be murder there must be an intention to kill someone or cause them very serious harm. It doesn’t have to be a particular someone though.

      • N_

        Britain’s chemical warfare defences must be total shit if they “clean up” after a supposed chemical warfare attack but they miss a hypodermic needle in a bin, and by some strange coincidence it’s left in the bin for four months.

        I mean you’d even think it was more about soldiers prancing around in funny suits for the cameras than actual chemical warfare defence.

  • Loony

    No Trump, No NATO is analogous to a headline stating “No Water, No Thirst”

    Of all of the leaders in western nations only Trump loathes and despises NATO- only Trump is prepared to see it sink into the mire. As the dullards that aspire to run European countries slowly become aware of the fact that Trump is serious you can watch in real time as they squirm and squeal and line up to pay homage to the killing machine that is NATO

    It is a joy to behold the ease with which Trump wins and the manic hatred expressed by so many for a man who merely intends doing what they say they want someone t do. This is cognitive dissonance taken to a whole new level.

    • Paul Barbara

      @ Loony July 8, 2018 at 22:18
      And the Loony-asy of folk who believe the ‘S’Trumpet’ is not dancing to the Bankster’s tune.
      And is a total, soul-sold a**hole.
      But, on the other hand, by all means join ‘it’s’ ‘Chearleaders’ ensemble. Nice pair of nickers!

    • laguerre

      “As the dullards that aspire to run European countries slowly become aware of the fact that Trump is serious you can watch in real time as they squirm and squeal and line up to pay homage to the killing machine that is NATO”

      Bonkers. That was an American claim from a former US official, Panetta, attempting to frighten the Europeans. I should think European leaders will react coolly, and tell the Yanks to piss off. That was the virtually unanimous reaction of commenters to that article.

  • Pyotr Grozny

    Dawn Sturgess may simply have died from contaminated drugs. The question is, if this was Novichok poisoning why wasn’t it diagnosed immediately? It appears that the emergency services in Salisbury were primed to look out for further cases of poisoning, why else the lockdown in Amesbury on the Saturday night? They didn’t see symptoms of Novichok poisoning then, it really does seem that someone in high places decided a couple of days later to make this a Novichok incident. Frustratingly this sad death stops one from attacking the whole hoax with satire and humour.

    • Paul Barbara

      @ Pyotr Grozny July 8, 2018 at 22:47
      Or, of course, maybe she hasn’t died at all, and is/will be relocated to US/Is*ael/New Zealand/Canada under a new and protected ‘identity’?
      As I often say on the London Underground (when I am (unusually) in my cups): ‘Please mind the gap – pause – between what the MSM tell you and the truth – public service announecement’.
      Eh bien alors…

    • bj

      The question is — do we actually believe she died?
      What about Sergei Skripal.

    • N_

      Contaminated with what?

      I don’t understand your third sentence.

      I wonder what kind of funeral Dawn Sturgess will get. If Theresa May is going to say she was murdered by a foreign power, will she attend? How have they deduce mens rea, I wonder? Reporting has already introduced the wacko concept of an “accidental target”, a true oxymoron.

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