Pandering to Racism

by craig on June 26, 2013 1:52 pm in Uncategorized

Here in Ghana people are stunned by the announcement that a bond of £3,000 will have to be submitted by visa applicants to the UK, redeemable on return.

It is unpleasant for a nation to be singled out as comprised of particularly untrustworthy individuals against whom special measures are needed.  Theresa May appears quite deliberately to be singling out countries whose citizens are normally black or brown – India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Ghana and Nigeria.  They are all citizens with extremely close ties to the UK.  For example, all of those countries supplied large numbers of men to British armed forces in two World Wars; with little resulting gratitude.

The true level of Britain’s regard for the Commonwealth is disclosed in all its arrogance; citizenship of the Commonwealth countries with the longest link to the UK will become a positive disadvantage in visa application.  Israeli settlers living in Occupied Palestine on the West Bank, incidentally, will still be allowed to enter the UK without any visa at all, despite membership of neither Commonwealth nor EU.  Paradoxical, isn’t it?

The measure shows the arrogant British disdain for these countries – of which India pre-eminently but also Ghana are fast growing and important trading partners.  Undoubtedly Ghana will retaliate with measures which hurt British businesses; many of my good friends are senior Ghanaian politicians, and they are all furious.  The rhetoric the British employ about transformation from colonial status to a modern partnership of equals is exposed for the tissue of lies it has always been.  This is a straightforward racist measure, aimed at securing the racist vote to the Tories.

Not does it make any sense.  If you are intending to enter the UK under false pretences, and have the intent illegally to settle and start a new life there, then £3,000 is scarcely a deterrent given the substantial economic gains you intend to make over the long period you intend to stay.  It will rather seem a good investment; people will find the money.  The people it will deter are those who never intended to overstay.  The extra cash upfront,  to the businessman for a business trip, for the student coming to study, for the tourist will drive them to go elsewhere, to the UK’s net loss.

More cruelly it will deter decent middle class people from coming to see grandchildren in the holidays, from going to the niece’s wedding,  from going to graduation.  Those things will become the prerogative of the wealthy, those with plenty of cash to spare.

This does nothing to deter illegal immigration.  It merely demonstrates populist racism, demonstrates contempt for some of the UK’s best-disposed friends, and demonstrates that the government thinks the right to travel is only for the rich.  It is contemptible.

Tweet this post

932 Comments

  1. Sorry for the O/T: “Rebels” make gains in southern Syrian town of Deraa. This is right on the border with Jordan, where 4000 US marines are conducting “exercises” with their hosts. Now, I’m no conspiracy theorist, but…
    Don’t expect the Blind Broadcasting Corporation to ask if there might be a connection. If this keeps up, I would guess that the next move would be Syrian use of the Iskander missiles Russia delivered to them earlier this year. It will be Russia’s decision whether to fire them, of course, maybe near Aleppo in the north (but the Turks ain’t so keen now to help the “rebels” cos they got troubles of their own) or near Deraa itself; maybe a little piece of Jordan…
    You can see where this is going. Dis shit gettin’ REAL, as my analyst once said to me…

  2. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 11:05 pm

    ” Dis shit gettin’ REAL”

    Indeed. I sense a fuse is being lit.

  3. well spotted Mike, and when you listen top the BBc you would think they have nothing else to do but to report on Glastonbury,
    what a perfect distraction, massacres in |Syria to the tune of I can get no satisfaction, apocalypse now in reality.
    Dis shit is getting very real indeed, the Saudi’s put their hands in their pockets and made arms dealers smile, Deraa would be the first town to get the arms, for all the reasons you mentioned. Syria is also being supplied, whatever Putin may say, he’s not going to set Syria adrift.

    Add to this powder keg the lightning speed changes in Egypt, by tomorrow this could be civil war with a sectarian flavour.

    I’m appalled at the impotence of the UN and the ease by which its various hands are being corrupted and bend over to suit crooks.

    Time to dig that hole…

  4. Anyway. Great speech by Glenn Greenwald on the Ed Snowden leak, speaking freely amongst friends.

    Very funny too.

    Starts 10.00 mins in, unless you really need to hear the introductions. Scahill’s @ 3.00 mins in is worth a listen though.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Uulv4ve6RJ8#at=1376

  5. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 11:48 pm

    If I were a gambler, I would put up several dollahs @ 10-1 that if trollery or other asshattery is not benefitting from this imbroglio, I will eat my three corner hat. Oh, I don’t think I understand that gambling thing….

    Just say I’ll eat my asshat.

  6. @Phil. 10 09pm

    “…I was only hectoring myself.”

    Isn’t it the natural, hard-wired, courageous and admirable male approach to a problem, to want to do something physical about it.

    I’m sure we wouldn’t be having this conversation if our young men of countless generations had not, without thinking, jumped out of their sleep and headed out to meet the big cats while women, entrusted with the future, gathered the young and moved them to safety. Samburu men do just that to this day.

    Bruce Chatwin, in “The Songlines”, had some interesting thoughts in this and much more back in 1986.

    Back to the jobs at hand.

    A “what is really so” narrative has to be one of the crucial issues if we are to course-correct. I’ve a couple of highly effective buddhist friends who have three simple practices.

    Pay attention.

    Tell it as it is.

    Practice compassion.

    Their questions enrage keepers of the Official narrative. But they refuse to treat them as enemies and seem the happier for it.

    No matter how they go about it, defenders of the old paradigm are finding it difficult to maintain once people start to check it out.

    I mean, we are being expected to swallow the notion that it’s somehow OK for national leaders to constantly use lethal, destructive force (in the name of protecting people and bringing democracy) or economic ECT (See Naomi Klein: “The Shock Doctrine”) to maintain the economic status quo.

    Out in the world, despite increasingly colossal fortunes being spent to manufacture the corporate media narratives, these are increasingly perceived as bizzare and not in the individual or society’s interests.

    It can no longer be convincingly argued that so many should be excluded from the earth’s wealth and nurturing capacity while the microscopic few have between 28 and 32 trillion dollars stashed away in tax havens. The rising tide left most of the boats underwater. Now it’s receded it only took the elites craft with it and left the rest of us high and dry.

    Milton Friedman economics is a busted flush, discredited outside the walls of the dominant banking cult but still in vogue with the Lords of the Universe, for obvious reasons.

    More and more people don’t see why their unborn kids should be saddled with the debts of corporate fraudsters. Witness the global spread of Ireland’s Anglo Irish Bank tapes.

    We are expected to accept these kind of swindles?

    Who says?

    Oh. It’s those same banksters, arms producers, generals and their political servants who profited by it all in the first place. Who can be reassured once they really get minds around that?

    Enormous mental and emotional energy is now required by comfortable conformists to stay shut in their cognitive cuckoons, eyes and minds shielded from reality out there when, increasingly , it crashes into lives all around them?

    Citizens are given bank debt, the surveillance state, pre-emptive arrests, etc and kept poor post WOT / Corporate Coup. Just how can that be defended rationally?

    Hence the sense of panic from the those who see it as their noble entitlement to enforce conformity,increasingly scraping their intellectual barrels in a vain and rather desperate attempt attempt to distract, insult and confuse.

    And of course we, who so desperately yearn for change, can forgive ourselves for loosing our cool now and then. Surely a valid response to, for example, blowing up chidren with missiles from a safe office thousands of miles away, or from an F11 thousands of feet up, is visceral disgust.

    Sometimes the language that escapes me offends and alienates. I don’t think it gets me very far, but it sure lets off steam. And Jon’s a dab hand with his zapping stick. Ouch!

    These conversations are important because they are likely to leak out of the blogosphere.

    My wish would be for change to come peacefully through increasing implementation of International Law. I’m not holding my breath on that one.

    I don’t believe the situation can be kept fossilised like this for much longer and ultimately one straw or another will turn up to break this camel’s back.

    So post on brother!
    ……………………………..

    @Ben.

    It’s the time of night to put those pokers away, put yer feet up, and get an ear-full of this.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej4tKE43oOw

    Peace.

  7. Good God, Ben!!

    It’s, “Were I a gambler”

    Have you learned nothing from Habby’s lessons?

  8. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 12:08 am

    OK, Kibo. This is War….

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9muzyOd4Lh8

  9. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 12:10 am

    “It’s, “Were I a gambler””

    We dun tawlk lak dat down heuah, son. Git yer culture igorance someswheres else. Gotta run now.

  10. A round up of the foreign news, the news that you are not likely to find in any of the fucking medjia you have come to rely on to keep you misinformed and ignorant.

    South Africans burn Obama’s poster

    Demonstrators expressed their opposition to Washington’s support for the Israeli regime, the killing of innocent civilians in U.S. drone strikes, and the continuing operation of the U.S.-run Guantanamo Bay prison.

    Some protesters compared the Obama administration’s support for the Israeli regime to the apartheid in South Africa.

    Moreover, activists from the Free Palestine Organization of South Africa waved Palestinian flags and carried signs that urged Obama to “Stop Funding Israeli Apartheid.”

    For their troubles informing the wider world of what is really happening; US seeks to take Press TV off air in western Afghanistan

    Press TV has learned that the US Consulate in Herat, situated more than 800 kilometers (miles) west of Kabul, has asked the cable television provider in the city to immediately remove Press TV from its platform.

    A senior official from the diplomatic mission has even met the managing director of the cable TV provider in Herat, and offered him three times more than the amount of the money paid by Press TV.

    ~~
    On June 19, Intelsat announced that it will no longer provide services to Iranian channels including Press TV. The decision has been made under the pretext of the company’s abiding by illegal sanctions against the head of the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB).

    ~~
    Press TV has learned that the Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) – an agency of the US Treasury Department headed by an Ashkenazi Jew called Adam Szubin – is behind the pressure on Intelsat.

    Meanwhile back in London, there has been a demonstration around Saudi embassy in which the demonstrators have been condemning the detention and torture of women who have been kidnapped and detained whilst demonstrating in protest against the ruling regime of Saudi in the town of Buraydah in central Saudi. This is in addition to the unrest in the western provinces and along some eastern board towns of Saudi.

    Moreover Bahrainy protests are still ongoing, with demonstrations in the township of Sitra south east of the capital Manama . Those attending the protests were openly challenging the ruling regime and maintained; they no longer feared the measures taken against these demonstrators, which includes detention, torture, and disappearances. Further, the demonstrators made clear that they will carry on with their protests until such a time that the ruling regime have not stepped down and remain in Bahrain.

    Egyptian demonstrators have been burning the zionistan flags and have also unfurled a giant banner in front of the defence ministry. The banner read; the pigs and dogs of Mossad, Egyptians are united, and will not fall victim to the US tricks.

    With respect to Syrian front, two polish cargo aircraft, each carrying ninety tonnes of heavy weapons and munitions thereof have landed in Jordan, and their deadly cargo has been injected through the Jordanian border into Syria.

    The weapons transported are being transported from the Kandahar airport in Afghanistan. the bridge head set up in Kandahar through means of air as well as ground deliveries to the Jordanian and Turkish borders, is delivering weapons and ordnance into the hands of the Syrian “rebels” (the heart eating, good terrorists). The cargo is composed of Humvees equipped with rocket launchers and semi heavy weapons, as well as anti armour rockets and munitions.

    This revelation further clarifies the push for arming the “rebels” which in fact is an attempt to farm out the redundant and surplus equipment in Afghanistan theatre, into the Syrian front, in the way of aiding the “rebels” to gain an advantage in the Syrian theatre.

  11. The power of intention wins again Ben. My all time fav ‘Knights in White Satin’ by the Moody Blues. I sang this song in Singapore Brit Club and in Yokahama Japan with the band, ‘London Lights’ aboard HMS London – Cheers for the memory – Syria-the terrorists must move out; they are no longer required. The world has spoken, viva voci people are hand in hand – the terror of Iraq is a constant vision in the minds of Syrian households.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9muzyOd4Lh8

  12. @Ben.12 08pm

    Oh, for that old summer of love! You win.

    ………………..

    @Fedup. 12 23pm

    Thanks for the update.

    Goodnight all.

  13. the Stuxnet computer virus unleashed on Iran’s nuclear facilities is such a huge story, with developments this week. what could be more dangerous than meddling in this way with nuclear reactors? an interesting take here:

    Mondoweiss: Leak inquiry launched over ‘NYT’ story on American-Israeli cyberwar targeting Iran
    by Alex Kane
    http://mondoweiss.net/2013/06/launched-cyberwar-targeting.html

    the criminal behaviour of US/Israel must be stopped. international bodies are so compromised, we need another way to hold them accountable.

  14. Flaming June

    30 Jun, 2013 - 6:54 am

    Good posts from the night owls.

    The ex Goldman Sachs operative returns to London to start work at HQ. He will pick up £874,000 pa.
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/a27e08f4-dec4-11e2-b990-00144feab7de.html#axzz2XfyPfpkl

    Merv goes off into the sunset for some me-time instead of doing QE-time.
    http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/6/25/1372194446411/26.06.13-Steve-Bell-on-Me-002.jpg

  15. Flaming June

    30 Jun, 2013 - 7:00 am

    That old D notice thing rearing its ugly head again?

    http://www.newssniffer.co.uk/articles/658994/diff/1/2

  16. Flaming June

    30 Jun, 2013 - 7:09 am

  17. Flaming June, at 7:09am: This is another plank in this fundamentalist government’s plan to privatise the NHS. It’s extremely dangerous. As far as I’m concerned, they can fuck off (and that’s my official public statement on that matter).

    But sadly, most people will do as they’re told.

  18. Here’s RT’s Crosstalk on the Snowden case.

    Some fine moments of verbal slapstick in the second half as the MSM panelist insists that if Snowden had integrity he’s get himself back to the US and “go through the proper channels”.

    http://rt.com/shows/crosstalk/whistleblowing-nsa-lies-law-372/

  19. Disturbing:
    “Royal Family granted new right of secrecy
    Special exemptions to be written into Freedom of Information Act”
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/royal-family-granted-new-right-of-secrecy-2179148.html

  20. I can’t see any problem with asking foreigners to meet their own medical expenses with an insurance policy. Oz, for as long as I can remember, has required visitors to have insurance. I don’t really want to ask the obvious .. but .. who is supposed to pay for the very expensive healthcare needs of people? If people are entitled to ‘free’ healthcare, surely they should be entitled to ‘free’ basic food and ‘free’ accomodation. How are these any different?

  21. Agree Suhayl. Yet another stick to beat already demoralized staff. That is the Con Dem agenda

    Mechanisms for collecting the cost of treatment from patients not entitled to NHS care already exist. Hospitals have finance departments for that purpose.

    Some of the ‘foreign patients’ aka ‘migrants’ or even ‘immigrants’, come from countries we have destroyed or pillaged incidentally so we shouldn’t be too hard on them.

    The BiBiCee said this morning that unpaid bills for treatment amount to £24m. They did not say what period was covered. I think they were quoting the Mail!

    A message here this morning from a medic I know.

    ‘Estimated cost of NHS services for foreign patients – 0.05 to 0.2% of total.

    Estimated cost of Health and Social Care Act ‘reforms’, not announced in any election manifesto – £3 billion which is roughly 3% of the total NHS budget.

    Bill for treating road trauma – £several billion. Hospitals can claim up to £1,300 from insurance companies (when I was working), when claims were settled – ie after several years. Few hospitals had the oomph or back up to follow these up. I encouraged the ‘managers’ to go for it.’

    ~~~

    And a ps. Don’t have an accident or get ill in Cornwall. Their services are in chaos. There has already been a scandal about the privatisation of their out of hours GP services with the provider altering statistics and providing poor or non existent care. Now the NHS 111 service there is in limbo –

    NHS Direct pulls out of Cornwall NHS 111 helpline
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-23113571

    and the board members of the trusts are resigning. Imagine working in the system at the moment with this scenario likely to spread round the country,

    Cornwall hospital trust chairman resigns after less than a week
    Royal Cornwall Hospital Mike Higgins said he resigned because he could not unite the hospital trust’s board

    Related Stories
    New interim health chair announced
    Chairman of hospital trust resigns
    Hospitals chief ‘distressed’ at row

    An interim chairman appointed less than a week ago at a hospital trust, after the resignation of the previous chairman, has himself resigned.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-23086746

    ~~

    Jeremy Hunt better head for the hills.

  22. If people are entitled to ‘free’ healthcare, surely they should be entitled to ‘free’ basic food and ‘free’ accomodation. How are these any different?

    Good to be in fucking Australia and waxing lyrical about bollocks as ever. what if the ill “immigrant” were to be struck with Lassa fever, Yellow fever, or any of the other contagions of highly dangerous pathogens? Yeah, hate can have awful consequences and come back to bite the hater on the arse really hard.

    Further, as your kind of Jayne Mansfield supporting fossil would not have time to learn, or begin to understand; the right to food, and the right to shelter, which ought to have been amended to the universal human rights charter, if it were not for the objections and the veto of the “freedom lovin democratic” US efforts in the UN.

    How about a far more simpler solution to your xenophobia? Stop your “governments” fucking around in the far off lands and nicking the chattel and wares of the would be immigrants? These would be “immigrants” lacking any means of supporting themselves in their own countries of origin, up sticks and set off on the road as itinerant labour prepared to do any kind of work. Included to put up with playing punch bag to the bigots and politicians alike. There seems to be a lot of pleasure derived from abusing these immigrants, by certain cretinous elements in every society. Fact that these would be “immigrants” would far rather stay with their own families and circle of friends and enjoy their lives, instead of setting off on journeys in search of jobs and a better life, because their own country has been sucked off dry by the sanctimonious bastards who keep abusing them in the first place.

    Stop meddling in other nations affairs, and let the people of the world have the opportunity of earning a livelihood in their own lands wherever these maybe. Whilst Syrians are getting “helped” to be “free and democratic”, Iraqis are too busy coping with their “freedom an democracy”, same as the Afghans, Yemenies, Libyans, Somalians, ………. there will always be a stream of vulnerable butts to be kicked by the likes of you and your mates, the suck up and kick down wankers who can hardly fight their way out of a fucking paper bag, getting pleasured playing the master race.

  23. Jemand, it depends what kind of society one wants to have. There’s always lots of money for dropping bombs on foreign people, it seems to me. People who live here or who become ill while visiting should be treated, free of charge. We all pay for one another. But whatever, I do not think that health professionals should become border guards. If they want us to start checking ID cards, insurance details, etc,. like in the USA, then the authorities can go to hell as far as I’m concerned.

  24. “If people are entitled to ‘free’ healthcare, surely they should be entitled to ‘free’ basic food and ‘free’ accomodation. How are these any different?”

    No different.

    They are entitled to those as well.

  25. *

    Hospital doctors announce decision to ignore the Ministry of Health directive and to continue treating undocumented migrants

    Prior to the May 6th elections, the minister of health, Loverdos, announced undocumented migrants were to no longer receive any treatment in public hospitals in Greece. In response, hospital doctors issued, through their union body, the following statement

    source in greek

    Doctors: “We will treat undocumented migrants. No to Loverdos’ credentials to the [Nazis of the] Golden Dawn!”

    http://blog.occupiedlondon.org/2012/05/17/hospital-doctors-announce-decision-to-ignore-the-ministry-of-health-directive-and-to-continue-treating-undocumented-migrants/

  26. Thanks, Fedup. Well argued with not a scintilla of sneering, psychotic rage and inane hostility. *hug*

    Suhayl, you said medical care should be “free” and then say “we all pay for one another”. May I suggest that both statements are incorrect. Inasmuch as you acknowledged that it is not indeed “free” but must be paid for and also that the burden of the cost is not equally or universally distributed.

    Furthermore, this issue has nothing to do with dropping bombs, directly, although the misallocation of resources does in fact impact on the quality of social services such as healthcare. When it comes to issues of finance, we can look at all wasteful expenses and say that they have the same financial impacts – ie money is fungible.

    I also think it is an exaggeration to say that health professionals will be required to act as border guards any more than bus conductors are tax collectors. They have a responsibility to account for their services and not simply bill the public for “free” delivery of unprovided services to anonymous or fictitious patients.

    Like I have said previously, if you all want to impose a moral obligation on yourselves to meet the burden of improving the lives of others, then you’d better back up your moral posturing with the means of delivering on your promises. Otherwise, you’re just writing blank cheques that bounce.

    PS – the above exchange is another example of conflating personal preference with observation and extrapolating all sorts of nasty character traits.

  27. Flaming June 30 Jun, 2013 – 10:41 am
    “Jeremy Hunt better head for the hills.”

    Yes he had. The (refreshingly radical?) pensioners group DAGE are so angry that Hunt will not talk to them they are organising a coach trip to visit him at home.

    DAGE broadcast on resonance. They are on at 14:00 today. It’s great radio.

    http://www.resonancefm.com

  28. Cornwall again. Poor man. Hope he has entitlement to NHS care and treatment. If not I hope he had his credit card handy as he was stretchered in, just like in Amerika (and Australia I believe?).

    Prussia Cove cliff fall man airlifted to hospitalA man has been airlifted to hospital after falling from cliffs in Cornwall.

    The man, who is in his 30s, fell about 35ft (11m) at Prussia Cove near Porthleven on Saturday evening.

    Falmouth Coastguard co-ordinated the rescue involving a helicopter from RNAS Culdrose and the Penzance coastguard team.

    The man was flown to Derriford Hospital in Plymouth with serious, but not life-threatening, injuries.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-23117205#

    ~~~

    The next move will be to exclude NHS patients from care if the injuries arise from sport or leisure activities.

  29. So while the government is throwing disabled people out of their homes for having a bedroom too many they have given the security services a 3% above inflation rise in their £1.9 billion budget.

  30. Thanks Phil I will try to catch it later.
    http://resonancefm.com/schedule

    The Lewisham hospital group who have their A&E and maternity services threatened have a ‘Hunt for Hunt’ campaign going, They recently went down to Farnham in Surrey, which is in his constituency, to beard him in his den.

    He picked up the poisoned chalice fron Lansley who now sits on the Front Bench organising the business. Milton, one of Lansley’s ministers, has been made a junior Whip, Burns has gone to Transport and the useless Burstow was kicked out of the government. He has the chutzpah now to concern himself with planned hospital closures in his constituency, afraid that he might lose his seat on the gravy train come 2015. I called him useless but he was not useless to his masters, at whose bidding he aided the imposition of the H&SC Act 2012 on the populace.

    Couldn’t make it up.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/liberaldemocrats/9528849/Paul-Burstow-criticises-dangerous-and-flawed-plans-to-close-hospitals-after-being-sacked-as-a-health-minister.html

  31. Flaming June 30 Jun, 2013 – 12:17 pm
    “They recently went down to Farnham in Surrey, which is in his constituency, to beard him in his den.”

    OK that’s presumably what I heard DAGE talking about. Great stuff.

  32. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 12:42 pm

    Jemand’s posts are convincing and he has had the better of his critics – the post at 11h30 is especially hard-hitting and, I think, unanswerable by any reasonably same person who approaches the matter with an open mind rather with the intent of sumply seeking to find fault in every single thing the UK govt. does.

    While on the subject, I refer to the following, posted at 10h41:

    “Mechanisms for collecting the cost of treatment from patients not entitled to NHS care already exist. Hospitals have finance departments for that purpose.”
    ________

    If that is the case, what is the poster complaining about wrt to these tightening up measures? And secondly, yes, there are finance departments, who seem unable, inter alia, to recover a deal of money from people who’ve had treatment and then buggered off abroad again.

  33. “if you all want to impose a moral obligation on yourselves to meet the burden of improving the lives of others” – we already have this obligation. It’s called ‘humanity’. It’s also, as Suhayl points out, entirely selfish: we all share the benefits.

    Of course, if you’d rather have a system where the efforts of the many increasingly and disproportionately benefit a very rich few (feudalism, I believe it used to be called, or slavery), then you seem to be in tune with government thinking.

    “then you’d better back up your moral posturing with the means of delivering on your promises” – syntactical confusion aside (is ‘posturing’ the same as ‘promising’?) are you really trying to address this to a doctor, among other people?

  34. Why on earth should we pay for these bloody foreigners to get free healthcare when its so much more efficient to bomb them to smithereens in their own lands?

    And its for their own good of course.How else would they receieve Freedom and Democracy??

    I jest,tragically,of course.

  35. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 1:20 pm

    “Cornwall again. Poor man. Hope he has entitlement to NHS care and treatment. If not I hope he had his credit card handy…”

    (post at 12h02 from she whose name one should apparently not mention)
    ____________

    He will most certainly have entitlement if he is lawfully resident in the UK or a bona fide visitor.

    Most govts advise their citizens to take out insurance when travelling abroad to top up medical cover and to ensure that treatment where required is financially affordable.

    Hope this clarifies.

  36. doug scorgie

    30 Jun, 2013 - 1:20 pm

    Phil
    29 Jun, 2013 – 1:09 pm

    “So, what do you think of Left Unity? I am no particular fan of Loach but considering the labour party is lost, is this the only game in town?”

    You could be right Phil but without the financial backing of the unions I fear it will fail.

  37. Well done. As usual, emotional resonance takes precedence over logical coherence – because it feels good.

    An intellectually poor attempt was made to falsely imply that I am advocating a bad system over a good one. If I am going to advocate for any particular system, it would be one that simultaneously delivers high quality health care and is fully paid for. Not one that promises quality and then delivers excuses because of financial problems.

    But the reality is too much to bear for fantasists. You can spend your whole GDP on health care and people will still be sick and dying. How do you explain that? 

    Dream on dreamers, and whinge and whine all you like because you can’t change a basic fact of humanity – we don’t work for “free”.

  38. Flaming June

    30 Jun, 2013 - 1:38 pm

    ‘….we don’t work for “free”.’

    You would be surprised at how many people in the UK work for free, either as volunteers or actually in employment on rock bottom wages. Have you heard of workfare?

  39. “we don’t work for “free”..

    We can. All that is required is evolution in our consciousness. Dollars destroy everything. An RBE will hold back our end of life.

  40. doug scorgie

    30 Jun, 2013 - 1:46 pm

    Flaming June
    29 Jun, 2013 – 5:59 pm

    “I am sending it to my MP, who is a Conservative, with a plea to Cameron not to supply further arms or weaponry to the rebels.”

    Take care Mary:

    “The Malicious Communications Act. That Act, from 1988, says that someone who sends another person material which is grossly offensive or indecent and is sent in order to cause the recipient distress or anxiety is guilty of an offence. The offence can apply to letters, email and other forms of communication.”

    http://www.out-law.com/page-7803

  41. Good luck with your system of volunteer doctors, nurses, anaesthetists, orderlies, cleaners, technicians, administrators, ambulance drivers etc etc. I should imagine service quality will improve with having volunteers too.

    Obviously you will save some money by eliminating the accounts department, obviated by your “free” system of health care for anonymous patients because everything is “free” and service delivery cannot be traced to an end user. I think astronomers call that a ‘black hole’.

  42. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 2:00 pm

    “emotional resonance takes precedence over logical coherence – because it feels good.”

    please demonstrate the ‘illogicality’: please also clear up your syntactical confusion earlier?

    nothing necessarily wrong in ‘feeling good’ by the way – as your like-minded poster, Habbakuk is consistently underlining. Of course, since life is nuanced, it all depends on what makes you ‘feel ood’: I wouldn’t advise it for a psychopath.

    “Not one that promises quality and then delivers excuses because of financial problems” – do you know anything about the appropriation of NHS funding by managers and PFI schemes? I think you cannot. Please read up.

    “But the reality is too much to bear for fantasists. You can spend your whole GDP on health care and people will still be sick and dying. How do you explain that?”

    Is this meant to be logical? People will always get sick and, yes, we will all die. The issue under discussion was the refusal of medical intervention to a certain section of people: the Greek doctors in the link I gave above had a word for them. Incidentally, I admire the conflation of doctors and bus conductors earlier: have met many decent bus conductors who have let poor people on without paying. Less able to do so now, of course, thanks to surveillance by much richer people, who one rarely sees on public transport.

  43. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 2:01 pm

    correction ‘good’.

  44. doug scorgie

    30 Jun, 2013 - 2:03 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    29 Jun, 2013 – 8:50 pm

    “Doug Scorgie. 1.58pm Radonski Caprile is a bad loser.”

    “Thank you for reminding us that the full name of the losing candidate in the recent Presidential election in Venezuela is “Radonski Caprile”.

    Playing games again HB.
    You “forgot” to state that the message you referred to was from Flaming June but implying it was from me.

    My post:
    doug scorgie
    29 Jun, 2013 – 1:58 pm

    The Venezuelan right-wing only accepts democracy if they win:
    “As part of ongoing attempts to prevent President Nicolas Maduro from consolidating his leadership in the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, right-wing forces at home and abroad have reissued false claims that he was born in neighboring Colombia.”

    http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/9771
    You have to laugh really.

    June’s post:
    Flaming June
    29 Jun, 2013 – 6:13 pm

    “Doug Scorgie. 1.58pm Radonski Caprile is a bad loser.”

    You’re not as clever as I thought you were HB and you underestimate people on this blog.

  45. Were the parasitic elites not continually fleecing us, there’d be plenty to go around.

    A system which is little more than skimming, numbers and protection rackets should not be expected to provide good outcomes.

  46. Another heart-wrenching, gut-churning glimpse of our Uzbek “friends”

    Indie Article

    Letter to our Dave

  47. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 2:17 pm

    Jemand: George Monbiot’s The Captive State v good on the insane and destructive extortion created by PFI hospital schemes, also Alyson Pollock, Private Eye etc etc etc.

  48. doug scorgie

    30 Jun, 2013 - 2:20 pm

    Nevermind
    29 Jun, 2013 – 11:13 pm

    “I’m appalled at the impotence of the UN and the ease by which its various hands are being corrupted and bend over to suit crooks.”

    I have no doubt that all the senior UN officials have been spied on and blackmailed by the west’s security services. That is how they operate.

  49. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 2:25 pm

    @ Doug Scorgie :

    My sentence read as follows :

    “Thank you for reminding us that the full name of the losing candidate in the recent Presidential election in Venezuela is “Radonski Caprile”.”
    _____________

    From where do you deduce that the “you” in this sentence referred to you and not to Flaming June/Mary?

    As my post quoted the first line of Mary’s, I think most normal readers would probably be able to figure out to whom my comment was addressed. But do please tell us why you think otherwise (if you “could be arsed” to do so, of course).

  50. ‘The issue under discussion was the refusal of medical intervention to a certain section of people’

    Trans- The issue under discussion is whether the delivery of healthcare in the UK should be via a ‘National Heath Service’ (as recommended by Jemand) or via an ‘International Health Service open to all comers(as recommended by FedUP, Technicolour and any other Mrs Jellaby thinkalikes on this thread).

  51. doug scorgie

    30 Jun, 2013 - 2:35 pm

    Flaming June
    30 Jun, 2013 – 7:00 am

    That old D notice thing rearing its ugly head again?

    http://www.newssniffer.co.uk/articles/658994/diff/1/2

    Well spotted Mary

  52. Habby’s post to which Doug refers above is reproduced in full below.

    Thanks, Doug.

    You’ve not only exposed an attempted subterfuge but even more dishonesty in the attempt to cover it up.

    What sort of character does things like this?

    Can we please be rid of it, once and for all!!

    =================================================================================

    “Doug Scorgie. 1.58pm Radonski Caprile is a bad loser.”
    _____________

    Thank you for reminding us that the full name of the losing candidate in the recent Presidential election in Venezuela is “Radonski Caprile”.

    Well, except that it’s actually CaprileS (father’s surname) Radonski (mother’s surname).

    Given the attachment some commenters have to giving Mr Capriles his full name,I am somewhat surprised that they have never referred to the winner, commonly known as Mr Nicolas Maduro, as Mr Nicolas Maduro Moros. Could it be that the part-surname “Radonski” is of particular significance for them?

    ****************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/pandering-to-racism/comment-page-2/#comment-415456

    ====================================================================================

  53. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 2:48 pm

    “International Health Service open to all comers as recommended by…”: I’ve been responding. Much depends on what the government categorise as ‘emergency treatment’, but in the meantime it seems a move of intellectual paucity, financial triviality and an appeal to knee-jerk prejudices.

  54. Uzbeks tortured me, says British Embassy man

    Former Foreign Office employee says he has been abandoned, despite refusing to spy on UK

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uzbeks-tortured-me-says-british-embassy-man-8679979.html

  55. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 2:54 pm

    Imagine you are a doctor, and someone arrives with a suppurating eye infection. It might not be a life-threatening emergency: it is, however, agonising, debilitating and easily cured. Are others on this board seriously suggesting that that doctor should refuse to treat them?

  56. Ah, so FJ is Mary. The need for aliases is awful perplexing.

    At least this posters penchant to bombarded us with off topic, offensive, hateful statements makes sense now.

  57. ‘Are others on this board seriously suggesting that that doctor should refuse to treat them?’

    Of course not. If the person presenting with such a condition is an EEA national, reciprocal treatment rights should apply. If the person is from another 1st world country (NZ., Japan etc) their travel insurance should cover the cost of treatment. If the person is from a country known to have a high propensity of its nationals to be visa overstayers, the proposed £3000 bond would be forfeited in whole of in part, to pay for the treatment.

    Enough shroud waving already !

  58. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 3:15 pm

    ah, ‘make Mary the topic time’. I see.

  59. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 3:16 pm

    Old mark: thanks. What if they are Somali?

  60. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 3:16 pm

    Remember when Wikileaks released the US diplomatic cables ‘embarassing’ Hillary?

    “Der Spiegel reported that the US had bugged offices and gained access to EU internal computer networks, according to secret documents, the latest in a series of exposures of alleged US spying.

    The magazine quoted from a “top secret” US National Security Agency (NSA) document from September 2010 that it said former NSA contractor Edward Snowden had taken with him, and which its journalists had seen in part.

    Der Spiegel said the document outlines how the NSA bugged offices and spied on EU internal computer networks in Washington and at the UN, listening to conversations and phone calls and gaining access to documents and emails. It said the document explicitly called the EU a target.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/30/us-clarification-us-spying-nsa

  61. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 3:30 pm

    I didn’t see that Der Spiegel was specifically targeted.

    “The prospects for a new trade pact between the US and the European Union worth hundreds of billions have suffered a severe setback following allegations that Washington bugged key EU offices and intercepted phonecalls and emails from top officials.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/30/nsa-spying-europe-claims-us-eu-trade

  62. Flaming June

    30 Jun, 2013 - 3:30 pm

    Thousands and thousands of Egyptians are in Tahrir Square. They do not like Shillary’s stooge, Morsi. 22 million people have signed a petition demanding that he ‘step down’.

    Egypt protest: Thousands stage anti-Morsi rallieshttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23115821

    Bowen has just been on giving his two pennorth. ‘Deteriorating conditions in Eqypt are leading to this unrest. Unemployment is high and the young especially feel discontented at the lack of dialogue.’

    Now when and where else have we been hearing that?

    ~~~

    Cameron pledges to ‘stand together’ with Pakistan on terrorism’. Any Pakistani people surviving Obomber’s drone attacks will probably be able to ‘stand’ too. Now he’s in Kazakhstan on a trade (arms?) mission.

    Perhaps he will pick up some tips from Nazarbayev for success at the polls in 2015.

    ‘On April 3, 2011 he was again elected President of the Republic of Kazakhstan supported by 95.5 per cent of electors.’ Wow! He must be popular.

    No irony in the Guardian headline. B.Liar is on a retainer isn’t he?

    Kazakhstan praises Cameron and Blair for helping improving country’s image
    As he flies into central Asian republic, British PM says he will raise Kazakhstan’s poor human rights record with its president
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/30/kazakhstan-cameron-blair-human-rights

  63. Flaming June

    30 Jun, 2013 - 3:36 pm

    ‘The CE’ needs to wake up. Bit slow on the uptake there. And a rather garbled message.

    CE? ? Any of these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE

  64. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 3:41 pm

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323419604578571601908964678.html?mod=wsj_share_tweet

    “But in the note, Mr. Assange also offered public-relations advice to top Ecuadorean officials about how to handle the crisis. Mr. Assange’s earlier efforts on Mr. Snowden’s behalf had prompted one diplomat to caution that Mr. Assange could be perceived as “running the show” in Ecuador.”

    I’m sure someone seeks to stoke the fire of power for their own purposes. Kerry undoubtedly cited numerous ‘disadvantages’ to giving asylum.

  65. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 3:44 pm

    “I’m shocked….shocked to see there’s gambling going on here”

    http://www.juancole.com/2013/06/collects-internet-connections.html

  66. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 3:50 pm

    Herbie; I was half-way through cocktail time last eve and my reply to you could be misunderstood.

    Cheers.

  67. doug scorgie

    30 Jun, 2013 - 3:59 pm

    Flaming June
    30 Jun, 2013 – 7:09 am

    Medics recruited to join UK Border Agency.
    http://news.sky.com/story/1109710/nhs-tourism-govt-to-announce-crackdown

    Mary, this is complete bullshit by the government; it is another “knock the foreigners” political ploy.

    I will return to this subject later when I get time.

  68. I made a rather poor joke, Ben, and you were very tolerant in reply.

    Thanks.

  69. Flaming June

    30 Jun, 2013 - 4:38 pm

    An invitation here to join a party to celebrate the 65th birthday of the NHS.

    5th July 2013 2pm
    Trafford General Hospital, Urmston, Manchester M41 5SL

    http://unite.newsweaver.co.uk/1s88loxzbd9voxu9d3q2j0?
    email=true&a=11&p=37346335

    As it says –

    We are celebrating 65 years of our NHS – the greatest social benefit of any government – but our message is serious.

    If we don’t act to save it – we will lose it.

    The coalition government’s pro-privatisation NHS shake up coupled with a multi-billion pound funding squeeze is putting our NHS at grave risk.

    Local communities are losing A&E units, hospital beds, maternity wards, and other NHS services. Waiting queues are growing, rationing is rife and, staff not sacked, are being overstretched to breaking point.

    Picking up the pieces are private companies who are set to make billions of pounds from our health.

    Join us to help celebrate our brilliant

  70. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 4:42 pm

    @ Mary/April Showers/Flaming June/…? :

    No chance that The CE was being gently ironical, I suppose?

    Nah, you wouldn’t know irony if it slapped you in the face :)

  71. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 4:55 pm

    @ Technicolour

    “Old mark: thanks. What if they are Somali?
    _______________

    I think Old Mark has dealt with your question rather well. I hope you’re happy!

    And now let’s cut through your clever-clever stuff and get serious.

    What would you – yes, you, Technicolour – suggest

    1) should be done to prevent illegal immigration

    2) should be done with over-stayers if they’re discovered.

    My questions assume, of course, that you are not in favour of illegal immigration.

  72. “But the reality is too much to bear for fantasists. You can spend your whole GDP on health care and people will still be sick and dying. How do you explain that? ”

    That’s easy, the death rate never changes, it’s one per person, always has been.

    The problem is that the health system isn’t designed to cure people who are ill any more, it is designed to make the shareholders of large drug companies, including the ones sitting in the House of Commons, rich.

    The drug companies invent a new drug then they invent a new disease for it to cure then invent a new drug to counteract the side effects.

    If they just stop handing over so much of our money to rich drug companies there will be plenty left for curing people who are actually ill.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1369125/

  73. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 5:16 pm

    Habbakuk – thanks for the intervention. But I think I’ll wait for Old Mark to actually reply to my question; only polite, you know.

  74. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 5:17 pm

    btw “You didn’t like Mubarak very much (he was an American stooge). And now you don’t seem to like Morsi very much either – apparently he’s an American stooge as well” – absolutely!¬Well spotted!

  75. “I know you’re busy with other ‘scoops’.”

    Yes, like this one perhaps. Dedicated to Flaming June, soon to return as Mary, or perhaps Hotter than July? :

    Cost of updating Parliament toilets to be £100,000

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-23117369

  76. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 5:20 pm

  77. Thanks for that from Egypt June, another sucker who has been exposed for taking the piss with the aspirations of young Egyptians. I eminent Egyptian scholars and Professors warn of impending civil war, with sectarian divides further blurring the lines of accountability and lawful judicial discourse.

    Villager’s amourous chit chat with Habby here, their common love to verbalise what their posts produce, is all beginning to look like a happy ending is near, when is the date?

    How about the 4th July, such fitting special day for all global lovers of freedom and democracy via the barrel of a gun, I’m sure people will come. Don’t worry about the beads and wind chimes along the isle, it’ll be fine.

  78. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 6:29 pm

    ‘Villager’s amourous chit chat with Habby here, their common love to verbalise what their posts produce, is all beginning to look like a happy ending is near, when is the date?’

    oh for heaven’s sake.

  79. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 6:36 pm

    @ Technicolour

    Never mind Nevermind, he can’t help it. Too many high altitude flights with defective equipment. Oxygen starvation. Terrible thing, you know.

  80. Fred, the pharmaceuticals industry is very much part of the bigger problem of health care economics. And I think several factors make this so.

    Having said that, modern medicine is remarkably new (~130yrs) and in due course, many of the essential pharmaceuticals developed in the last 50 years will fall in price as patents expire leading to competition.

  81. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 6:39 pm

    I have a happy vision of several people who commonly insult each other on this board ensconced together in a pub and laughing uproariously. Cheeky monkeys ;)

  82. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 6:40 pm

    Did you look up PFI yet, Jemand?

  83. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 6:41 pm

    @ Villager :

    “Hotter than July” !! Precious!!!!! :)

    Alpha plus for that one!

  84. @Jives. 1 19pm

    “…its so much more efficient to bomb them to smithereens in their own lands?”

    Not only pissed off but also off-piste again.

    Surely it is simply an issue of how we frame the action of dropping high explosives and depleted uranium to save lives and improve everything in far off dictatorships.

    Think not of bombs but of “seeds of democracy” and voila, the issue is suddenly resolved!

  85. Flaming June

    30 Jun, 2013 - 7:02 pm

    Is there a collective noun for trolls?

  86. And anyway once those nasty dictators start thinking about alternative currencies, domestic oil revenues, greening deserts and the like, the next thing you know they’ll be independent of the western sphere of influence. Perish the thought.

    Our leaders have difficult decisions to make and sometimes they have to be cruel to be kind. It doesn’t help them when you criticise everything they do.

  87. “Villager’s amourous (sic) ….

    How about the 4th July, such fitting special day (sic) for all global lovers of freedom and democracy via the barrel of a gun, I’m sure people will come.”

    Never-a-mind sounds like you’re a bit lonely and need to come. :-) Sure you’re on the right website here?

    Btw, just a tip (pun intended), under new regulations (which expressly include failed-foreign-petty-politicians) in case you don’t sort out your English, you may not be entitled to your benefits.

    GET TO WORK!

  88. FJ. 7 02pm

    It’s trolls.

  89. On topic.

    Reginald D. hunter on racism (1 06mins)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg6CTFwOalc

  90. Flaming June

    30 Jun, 2013 - 7:38 pm

    Unusual to find words like these from one of the stenographers– to-power.

    The British – supine to the last when it comes to America – are of course silent.

    It’s Alex Thomson on Channel 4 News’ Snowmail who engages in the usual derisory descriptions of Edward Snowden….fugitive…mole…

    ‘Anger grows over claims NSA bugged EU offices

    Astonishing language being fired off by senior European politicians at the USA tonight – not least by the Germans. ‘Abhorrent’, ‘disgusting’, ‘treating us like the enemy’, ‘Cold War tactics’, ‘like the Stasi’ are just some of the accusations being levelled at Washington if it is proven they have indeed been spying on EU offices. Well – they pretty much seem to have been spying on everyone and everything else – if the tip-offs by the still-stranded Mr Snowden are reliable.

    US and EU reaction appears to confirm that the leaks from the fugitive intelligence officer to Der Spiegel magazine are indeed reliable, with the documents to back them up, according to the magazine. The resulting language is the like of which we have not seen being traded across the Atlantic in many a long year.

    The British – supine to the last when it comes to America – are of course silent. Not so the Germans and others. Not so at all.

    For now US President Barack Obama – who has been caught out as a devotee of interfering with people’s communications up to and including diplomats and journalists before now – seems to think the only game in town is apprehending Mr Snowden.

    Pretty soon he is going to have to deal with what the mole has leaked, rather than the simple (and as yet quite ineffective) manhunt for the leaker. Jane Dodge has been digging.’

    ex Medialens

  91. Kibo, consider my last post to you on the UN thread (good omen) as an olive branch. Please understand, my essential quarrel was not with you (by definition) personally but with the lack of attention to the issue in moderation, given the rapidly deteriorating situation at the time on the blog overall. In the spirit of Technicolour’s comment above i’d be quite happy to share a bowl of noohdles with you sometime.

  92. ‘Trollers’ Mary – ‘Fishing’ for interpersonal conflict and shock-value controversy by those predisposed to antagonism.

  93. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 8:59 pm

    Well said Mark. Free speech has it’s limits in the US. You can’t falsely yell ‘FIRE’ in a crowded theater.

  94. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 9:04 pm

    June; I saw this morning that Der Spiegel was specifically targeted. This is no Benghazi kerfluffle.

  95. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 9:11 pm

  96. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 9:11 pm

    (sorry)

  97. “Did you look up PFI yet, Jemand?”

    No, sorry. I’m busy having an interesting conversation with my cat.

    Can you look it up and get back to me with the gist of it? 

    Thanks.

  98. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 9:13 pm

    Ah, Jemand, and I was trying to take your comments as though they were being made by someone who was worth responding too, and/or knew what they were on about. Please accept my apologies. In all seriousness, I do realise that cats are more fun than facts :)

  99. You misunderstand Technicolour. What I mean is that conversing with my cat is more informative and interesting than engaging with you. I thought you would have understood that.

  100. On the whole; the more shit… Sorry for the unflavourable language. We consume the mor vat we pay to the government.

    Of which come’s back in health care.

    On the whole! It is all equatable.

    Education would reasonanly suffice but with no restraint on idiocracy.
    The shit stick’s continiously.

    As usual the weak and unfortunate fall behind ad hominem.

  101. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 9:53 pm

    In case anyone is puzzling over the posts from Technicolour and Villager (both at 17h17), they are referring to a post of mine of a little earlier, which questioned a couple of elements in an O/T post by Mary/April Showers/Flaming June, namely (1) that 22 million Egyptians had signed a petition against President Morsi and (2) that Morsi was an American stooge.

    I asked for the source of the claim about the 22 million, signatories and also asked Mary whether there was any potential Egyptian leader wholm she would not accuse of being an American stooge.

    Needless to say, that post of mine was soon deleted.

    It is beginning to look as if Mary (and Doug Scorgie, who was also briefly alluded to in my post) are rapidly becoming protected species.

    ****************

    La vita è bella, life is good (I post, you might be offended, he/she/it censors…)

  102. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 9:55 pm

    er, naturally, but the issue you had was, you said, about a system “that promises quality and then delivers excuses because of financial problems.”

    equally naturally, i presumed you’d have some kind of idea about what engendered the ‘financial problems’ – or be interested in their causes.

    hey, we can’t all be aware of stuff. cats are great; enjoy.

  103. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 9:57 pm

    sorry; above to Jemand. habbakuk yep, would also like to see source for that 22 million.

  104. Noted Mark. :)

    Technicolour Yes. Man has now become Creator. There has hardly been any comment in depth on what is being proposed and no thought of what the repercussions and future consequences might be.

    Heard that Agent Cameron is being accompanied by a party of 30 British business heads on his visit to Kazakhstan. Bet there is some representation of arms manufacture amongst them. Shades of previous visits to other cruel dictatorships like Bahrain and Saudi Arabia.

    Land transit rights are being sought for getting our junk out of Afghanistan. I think Craig told us that Hammond has already done a deal with Karimov for the same.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/30/us-kazakhstan-britain-cameron-idUSBRE95T08S20130630http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/30/us-kazakhstan-britain-cameron-idUSBRE95T08S20130630

  105. well, there we are, a quick search for the 22 million petition and here:

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/22-million-sign-anti-morsi-petition-egypt-opposition.aspx?pageID=238&nID=49706&NewsCatID=352

    and here:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/29/anti-morsi-petition_n_3521595.html

    ‘claims’ you note. but if anyone has taken any interest in Egypt after the flash-bangs of excited temporary reporting a while back, significant numbers are not surprising.

  106. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 10:06 pm

    @ Technicolour

    “equally naturally, i presumed you’d have some kind of idea about what engendered the ‘financial problems’ – or be interested in their causes.”
    ______________

    On the assumption that what is meant are the financial problems of the NHS, then the answer is simple : it is the problem of unlimited demand for a product or service which is free at the point of delivery to the consumer or user.

    (And, btw, re-assigning govt expenditure tends merely to shift the problem to other areas where there is similar unlimited (and expanding) demand for same (eg, social security).
    (And before someone says “defence”, look up the figures for govt expenditure on the NHS, social security, pensions and defence, pls)

  107. “it is the problem of unlimited demand for a product or service which is free at the point of delivery to the consumer or user.”

    Habbakuk, my dear, I wish I thought that, but I have read too many facts, Many of them from the Telegraph:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8877412/NHS-among-best-health-care-systems-in-the-world.html

    That was our model.

  108. Jon, since i’ve read Habby’s protest, will you delete this provocation also:

    “Flaming June
    30 Jun, 2013 – 7:02 pm
    Is there a collective noun for trolls?”

    Actually my TRUE view is that there is now a risk that the pendulum will swing the other way — too much snipping, whereas it may logically be the case that water might find its own balance.

    If Habby’s tone is respectful, why protect any species. Learning to ignore certain people or even have a civil laugh at their expense, is part of life! In the end people can only reach the nirvana that all posters and non-posters aspire to, by dissolving the self, the ego. Plenty of opportunity here in a relatively safe virtual environment.

    “”A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest… a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.”
    ALBERT EINSTEIN

  109. hello, Villager, how interesting compared to nhs funding racism etc – and this has what to do with anything but yourself, precisely?

  110. What is the name for someone who is being trolled?

  111. so, back the the nhs and the current associations of racist discrimination -

  112. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 10:30 pm

    @ Technicolour (re Morsi and the petition)

    Thanks for the links.

    But I must say I’m still doubtful. Disinformation and false claims are perhaps not a monopoly of the evil West or the satanic Israelis; perhaps the wily Arab is also a practicioner of these dark arts.

    Seriously though, if you calculate on the basis of the figures given in the first link, to get to a figure of 22 million signatures you would have to accept that not only ALL the votes which went against Morsi at the Presidential election signed this petition but also that 10 million of the 25 million voters who did not vote at all in that election were sufficiently stirred to sign. I don’t know whether that’s entirely convincing.

  113. ‘back to the nhs’ – drat

  114. “What is the name for someone who is being trolled?”

    again, if that is you, mary, this has very little to do with the issues at hand.

  115. “But I must say I’m still doubtful.” – always good. Will dig, when I finish this chunk of work….

  116. HI TC yes i realise Einstein is difficult to understand, but in this case not precisely. If i understand your question precisely, the cue lies in the optical delusion. Nodding off now so more about the NHS tomorrow if you’re around.

    Meantime thanks for the daily mash.

    Over on media lens and dissident voice there is a great concern and debate raging as to whether FJ will self-destruct at midnight tonight, in the spirit of Y2K.

  117. but whether it is 22 million or 20 million, or 10 – people in Egypt, from my sources, are horrified by what has happened to the people’s revolution, It was taken over by the resident spy chief, as I remember. good grief.

    there is another possibility, where the ‘ruling elites’ do not have to be scared of losing, you know.

  118. Technicolour…’very little to do with the matters in hand.’

    Not if you are someone who is singled out, picked at and picked upon. Read back a bit. There in black and white.

  119. Mark Steel on Racism, albour and the BNP:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UIN1NM7GlE

    ………….

    @Villager. 3 08pm on “Work for the UN” thread.

    “Yes, just more evidence of schizophrenia.

    On a serious note, don’t dismiss it easily. But also don’t be disheartened for i believe your objectives are true but your methods are destined to lose. Forget about analysis and narratives and tipping points. Focus on your self so that you may access insights. The only tipping point perhaps is when there comes a critical mass through a change in our collective human consciousness which is different from collective beliefs and ideologies etc.
    http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/about-krishnamurti/the-core-of-the-teachings.php”
    ……..

    That’s a peace offering?

    First you psycho-analyse me.

    Then you diss the stuff I feel deeply to be important. Who the hell gave you the right to tell me what issues to forget?

    Then you talk as if I had taken you on as my personal guru. Well thanks a bunch, but no thanks.

    WTF entitles you to make such assumptions and give such instructions?

    I take the piss when I witness bullying and pompous bullshit. And occasionally with genuine posters who I know can take it in the spirit in which it’s offered. (Thanks Jives, Ben, Technicolour other surviving victims.)

    As regards Krishnamurti, I’ve no argument with him and I’m sure he had great wisdom to share. Are you sure he would really have chosen to have you use him to score points?

    I’ll happily disengage from your posts if you enter into the spirit of the blog and stop asking for it.

    (Sample: Villager
    18 Jun, 2013 – 12:00 am
    “Kibo don’t venture towards Krishnamurti, not for children.”

    Also why do you go bleating continually Jon? He’s shown he’s a big boy, generously doing a rotten job. He’s asked us to allow him to use his judgement. So what if he zaps us now and then, or doesn’t zap those who we would have liked him to? Craig clearly trusts him to do his fallible best.

    You know as well as I do that Sofia’s sock-puppetry was continually being flagged by, well, Sofia herself. That was a pretty obvious clue if you ask me. That’s why it was so unintentionally funny when you sought to steal all the credit for working out what everyone had known all the time. And that’s the first time I’ve teased you for that because I felt it would have been cruel.

    If you were for a moment deceived into thinking she was offering a real 13.5 year old’s perspective then, I suggest, you need a lot more help than Mr Krishnamurti could ever have given you.

    You’ll find Kibo/Sofie’s piss-taking is generally a response to a post. Part of the cut and thrust of threads which, at best, tests to destruction those narratives that you so often seek to shepherd us away from.

    Let’s lighten up on the hostilities up by all means. But not at the price of turning the comments section into a kind of sanitized Green Zone, with all the life and humour of a mouldy sponge.

  120. villager, einstein is just normal. i was referring to your peculiar and lengthy plea to the moderator about something completely distracting and different, but carry on, why not.

  121. “Imagine you are a doctor, and someone arrives with a suppurating eye infection. It might not be a life-threatening emergency: it is, however, agonising, debilitating and easily cured. Are others on this board seriously suggesting that that doctor should refuse to treat them?” Technicolour, earlier today.

    Totally agree, Technicolour. Anyone in authority who suggests that treatment of a human being should be withheld or premised on ability to pay, or that I even consider requesting proof of insurance will receive a Glasgow Kiss, personally, from me (in line with the Hippocratic Oath).

  122. Is there a collective noun for trolls?

    Useless fucking trolls.

    Mind you have managed to get under their skin pretty good, in any opportunity (almost all the time) they are whinging, whining and calling for “mod” to “sir” them so they could delete your posts, and banish you to the four winds.

    This is then passed as debate. Although I don’t read any of the wankers’ “contributions” but scrolling past I can see Flaming June said this and said that. June dearest you have my vote, and thanks for your comments, keep up the good work.

  123. Flaming June. 10:30 pm

    “What is the name for someone who is being trolled?”

    How about an asset to the blog?

  124. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 10:57 pm

    @ Technicolour

    Is there a contradiction between the British NHS being the best in the world (if true) and the fact that it is also an example of unlimited demand for a product which is free at the point of delivery (and this in a context of finite resources)?

    If there is not, then I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make with your post and link.

    ________________

    BTw I did read your link…and some of the commenbts from readers on the Telegraph’s two year old article. The “best” claim comes from a report from the Commonwealth Fund, which is an American institute apparently favorable to President Obama’s proposed healthcare reforms.

    One of the comments I saw however siad, and I quote :

    “The Commonwealth Fund report is at variance with analyses of the OECD and the Euro Health Consumer Index, both of which rate the NHS poorly.The difference is that they look at the availability of treatment, outcomes and efficiency” (Habbabkuk note : the Commonwealth Funhd report appears to focus on speed of access to GPs, the coordination of care and number of medical errors))

  125. Mary: “singled out, picked at and picked upon” – yes, it was awful. And I was not the only one to be keeping a close eye. But being supported with vicious if ultimately ineffective insults (Nevermind, Doug Scorgie) made it much harder. I’m sorry that it made it harder to support you.

    But can we move on now, perhaps?

    Habbakuk, you’ve chosen a few vague things at your leisure. I think you are possibly not connected with anyone poor, or vulnerable, and therefore do not care much about them. That is, of course, your prerogative, The facts though, about the creation of the NHS, its sincere purpose, and the people who have since dedicated themselves to it remain; they humble me. Perhaps not you.

  126. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 11:12 pm

    @ Technicolour

    Thanks for your latest – and for staying on a subject of substance.

    I do think that it would be important to know what the real number was. The reason for saying that is this : it would be reasonable to assume that all of those who voted for candidates other than Morsi would sign the petition – this brings us to a little over 12 million signatories (just under half of the 25 or so million who exercised their vote in the Presidential election).
    So if the number of signatories is almost double that number, it is impressive and rather significant. But if nearer 13 or 14 million, then rather less so.

    Having said that, I’m sure we’ll never know the real figure.

  127. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 11:19 pm

    @ Technicolour

    “Habbakuk, you’ve chosen a few vague things at your leisure. I think you are possibly not connected with anyone poor, or vulnerable, and therefore do not care much about them. That is, of course, your prerogative, The facts though, about the creation of the NHS, its sincere purpose, and the people who have since dedicated themselves to it remain; they humble me. Perhaps not you.”
    _____________

    You’re not that different from the Eminences, are you. When stuck for a reply of substance or out of arguments….make it personal!

  128. in many ways,’knowing the real figure’ is ultimately irrelevant, because many people will not vote, or sign a petition at all. The background truth is that, all around the world, young people ( I think younger than the people on this blog) are rising up in horror, backed by large numbers of everyone else, of whatever age. It doesn’t matter where they live: the issues of environmental pollution, corporate control, totalitarian spying, threats of violence, evidence of murder and torture, are the same.

    so do we support them? I say hell, yeah.i want a world where i can face my grandchildren.

  129. …. sneering, psychotic rage and inane hostility …

    No shit Sherlock!

    To witness some old fart begrudging another human being relief from pain and agony, because the poor bastard has not the means of paying for any kind of medical care, ought to be a cause for sneering and rage.

    The unbelievable mean spirited attitude of some of the contributors, who have been going on record without any shame, will turn any sane and normal human being’s stomach. On one hand there is the bail out of the bankers, costing trillions, which is good for we the people. On the other paying to pull some poor bastards appendix out proves too much for the rich tossers who are running the dog and pony show and calling it democracy.

    Mind beggars belief at the inhumanity of the decisions which are being taken in the name of making savings. One hundred billion on Trident, and then some on Aircraft carriers, not forgetting the spies sand fuck knows what else, but make savings through picking on the dying, sick and the poor by not paying their benefits, or claw back their benefits through trumped up bedroom tax charges, and better yet get the “immigrants” ie “illegal asylum seekers” to pay their own way for their way for medical care.

    Then even more bizarre is to find certain characters* on this blog approving of these reactionary and weird measures floated by the out of touch and pampered elite.

    However the same gubermint has the money for SOCMINT;
    Special UK Police Units SOCMINT Watching Your Every Move On Social Media

    UK’s sweeping surveillance is going beyond the GCHQ phone and online eavesdropping. A special police unit has reportedly been scanning what British citizens are posting online in social networks.

    #
    #

    * These characters probably used to torture their pet animals in childhood, and during their adolescence, and have since qualified to kick around the “immigrants”. Muslims, and illegal asylum seekers.

  130. “You’re not that different from the Eminences,,,When stuck for a reply of substance or out of arguments….make it personal!”

    ouch – and I would try not to hold it against you. but of course things are a bit personal. we are alive and ourselves – and individuals. we all have different fingerprints.

    It’s odd, though, that the reality seems to bear out the peaceful majority. As in, there is enough food to go round ( if we weren’t wasting a third of it); there is no need to build drones; endless torture in Guantanamo doesn’t help anyone. I do wonder why that is?

  131. Habbabkuk, it doesn’t take long for false character flaws and imaginary personality traits to be attributed to you when you make an unwelcome observation. Some people call that ad hominem.

  132. Alan Campbell

    30 Jun, 2013 - 11:45 pm

    I’m sure it will be a nightmare to administrate this bond, but – just to play devil’s advocate – isn’t there a logic to this? Presumably the countries targeted, including Ghana, have low rates of GDP per capita and high rates of visitors absconding? Which won’t be the case for Israel or other more economically successful countries.

  133. Jemand, please don’t attack Habbakuk.

  134. Fedup, always good to read your posts. Who’s the “old fart” you witnessed doing some begrudging? And who the fuck do old people think they are, what with their old age, limited rights and whatnot?

    Why can’t they just accept that Generation Yo-Gabba-Gabba are now in charge and want a future where everything is free, people always smile and strangers hug each other in the street and meth-heads are happy and their dealers don’t short them on crystal? Do they even appreciate that Gen Y-GG brought Koni to trial in 2012 for crimes against the Pokemon generation?

    I think old people should be put in special prisons where they get ignored by their family – at least until they stop begrudging on others.

  135. A passing snap-shot of defense spending intelligently reveals an interesting consolidated cost.

    Military expenditure was £61Bn in 2012 (sipri database)

    Current cost of wars £20Bn (Daily Telegraph 20-6-2013) this figure is nearer £30Bn if Libya is included.

    The ‘special activities’ special reserve is about £20Bn

    GCHQ and intelligence services including signals and spies is approximately £10Bn

    Military subsidies, grants to universities engaged in defence, Porton Down, AWE operations, Trident program and NDA activities:

    £60Bn at a guess. That is £160Bn folks total. On what? Death?

    We spend much less in real terms (public/private claw-backs) on the NHS. Health? Life?

    We are consumed by death, by darkness. America and Britain must be the grim reapers; our lives a tomb.

  136. Israel or other more economically successful countries.

    Are you serious? Their economy is a basket case as the constant flow of the US et al “aid” funds into that basket case economy proves.

    However if the bond is to be taken at the point of application for visa, and as pointed to the low GDP of the target countries that would automatically blanket stop the would be visitors dead in their tracks from these countries.

  137. Who’s the “old fart” you witnessed doing some begrudging?

    Experiencing a senior moment there?

    Pitiful, just pitiful a garbled and confused comment, in rebuttal, which discounts the earlier “contribution” and then rips into some bizarre soliloquy of forgetfulness. Although there is a pointed effort to remain relevant and with it:

    people always smile and strangers hug each other in the street and meth-heads are happy and their dealers don’t short them on crystal?

    Fuck me with teachers the likes of you, there is not a strong enough psychotropic drug in existence to relieve the boredom or induce an amnesia of experiencing the tutelage!

    However the bitter and twisted hate so palpable and manifested itself proves the earlier contention forwarded with respect to pet animals and childhood.

    ======
    #
    #

    We spend much less in real terms (public/private claw-backs) on the NHS. Health? Life?

    We are consumed by death, by darkness. America and Britain must be the grim reapers; our lives a tomb.

    Thanks for the figures. The sad fact is, the darkness has consumed some souls to the extent that they no longer can find any compassion in their being for the next pilgrim along, and would rather gleefully enjoy the demise, pain, illness, and agony of others. Sad, and truly disgusting.

  138. NHS budget for this year is £109 billion.

    ANNUAL cost of wars in Afghanistan etc is nowhere near £20 bn although the total spent since 2002 is closer to £40 bn. “Military Subsidies”; figure a guess, plucked from thin air.

  139. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 1:44 am

    For your painted Celtic Barbarians.

    http://crookedtimber.org/

    “Anglo Irish Bank —Ireland’s third-largest bank and the most spectacular exemplar of the Celtic Tiger’s flameout— bet its future on loans to well-connected property developers. O’Toole suggests that “[i]t may be an exaggeration to call Anglo Irish a private bank for Fianna Fáil’s more flamboyant friends—but only a small one.” Not only did Anglo Irish itself invest heavily in the property market, but it lent more than 100 million euros to its chairman (as well as smaller sums to other directors) to speculate in property on his own account, and then hid the loan on its balance sheet through sleight of hand. The Central Bank–based regulator charged with regulating financial services knew about both the loans and the cover-up but declined to act. To borrow University College Dublin economist Morgan Kelly’s term, Anglo Irish was “too connected to fail”—no serious regulatory response was possible.”

  140. So is Habba a “Yorkshire Methodist” or a “good catholic boy (or girl)”, as he tells us, or just another hasbarista khazar shill posting from a free apartment in the WB, and paid via Hillarys annual $400m CIA internet budget. They MUST have a dedicated agent assigned to this influential blog, Jon? He may even be a retired dual loyalty Spurs supporter like Lady Porter, trolling with the trannies on Tel Aviv beach for all we know !

  141. @hasbarista
    “So is Habba a “Yorkshire Methodist” or a “good catholic boy (or girl)”, as he tells us, or just another hasbarista khazar shill posting from a free apartment in the WB, and paid via Hillarys annual $400m CIA internet budget?”

    No hes just a barnacle on the ship of humanity.

  142. alan campbell

    1 Jul, 2013 - 7:41 am

    Israel’s GDP per capita in 2011 was $31,005: Ghana’s was $402. Is it that hard to work out which country’s visitors might decide the economic grass is greener and decide to stay on?

  143. Habba you say.

    “But I must say I’m still doubtful. Disinformation and false claims are perhaps not a monopoly of the evil West or the satanic Israelis; perhaps the wily Arab is also a practicioner of these dark arts.“

    Even your doubts are social constructs.
    Simpliciy and avoidamce aren’t.

  144. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 8:05 am

    “NHS budget for this year is £109 billion.

    ANNUAL cost of wars in Afghanistan etc is nowhere near £20 bn although the total spent since 2002 is closer to £40 bn. “Military Subsidies”; figure a guess, plucked from thin air.”
    _________

    A thank you to Kempe for these figures. It would be interesting also to have the figures for annual UK spending on pensions and on social security as compared to that on defence.

  145. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 8:10 am

    Special delivery.

    Do not even think of parking there. By royal decree.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1109911/kates-royal-baby-parking-ban-outside-hospital

    ~~

    Grandpa-to-be was in the news last week.

    Prince Charles aide to be quizzed by MPs over Duchy of Cornwall tax affairs
    Private secretary to defend tax status of estate from which prince received record personal income of £19m last year
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/28/prince-charles-duchy-of-cornwall-tax-status

    Charles’s £35,000 choo choo drain
    He blows a fortune on Royal Train trip

    htp://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4989122/Charless-35000-choo-choo-drain.html
    Sorry it’s a Sun link.

    Austerity? What austerity?

  146. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 8:14 am

    @ Jay

    “Even your doubts are social constructs.”
    ____________

    Even if that were so, would it matter? It might explain why I have the doubts, but would it invalidate them?

  147. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 8:15 am

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4989122/Charless-35000-choo-choo-drain.html

    There are many links to anti-royal pieces on that page. I thought the Australian ex-pat Murdoch (now a US citizen) liked the royals. Perhaps he’s miffed because he has never been given one of those honorary gongs.

  148. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 8:18 am

    @ Exexpat

    ““So is Habba a “Yorkshire Methodist” or a “good catholic boy (or girl)”, as he tells us, or just another hasbarista khazar shill posting from a free apartment in the WB, and paid via Hillarys annual $400m CIA internet budget?”

    No hes just a barnacle on the ship of humanity”
    _________________

    If so, get scraping :)

    (Advice for those seeking a career in barnacle-scraping : use a hard tool and not a feather duster)

  149. What is a better and more useful concept?

    A greenhouse or The whitehouse;

  150. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 8:32 am

    @ Technicolour :

    “The background truth is that, all around the world, young people ( I think younger than the people on this blog) are rising up in horror, backed by large numbers of everyone else, of whatever age. It doesn’t matter where they live: the issues of environmental pollution, corporate control, totalitarian spying, threats of violence, evidence of murder and torture, are the same.”
    _____________

    That is an eloquent general exposition of what young people might
    be demonstrating (etc) about.

    But to come back to the (sort of) subject : is it unreasonable to think that most of the signers of the petition against President Morsi are somewhat less exercised by these than by economic conditions in Egypt?

  151. Basic state pension costs £80 bn per year with another £12 bn for Winter Fuel Allowance and Pension Credits. Benefits: JSA, Disabilty Allowance, Income Support etc is another £20 bn. Add that to the NHS bill and we have £221 bn spent on welfare of one sort or another.

    That’s a lot of aircraft carriers and enough to replace Trident ten times over.

  152. According to this:
    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/year_spending_2011UKbn_12bc1n_30#ukgs302

    UK defence spending for 2011 was £45.7 Bn.

    According to this:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10359548

    Professor Malcolm Chalmers, a defence analyst for the Royal United Services Institute, said about 30% of the UK’s defence budget* went on operations in Afghanistan.

    and yet -

    In March, former Chancellor Alistair Darling said he had set aside £4bn of the 2010-11 Treasury reserve for military operations in Afghanistan.

    Something doesn’t quite add up. So I guess we can take the usual unsubstantiated assertion by the usual suspect as being gospel truth, rather than asking any questions of our own.

    *Maybe he meant the military defence (sic) budget: £33.0Bn. Of which 30% would be, errr…£9.9Bn.

  153. “I thought the Australian ex-pat Murdoch (now a US citizen) liked the royals. Perhaps he’s miffed because he has never been given one of those honorary gongs.”

    After the phone hacking scandal he must know he’s never going to get one either so any way he can get back at the British establishment he will. A bit sad really.

  154. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 8:48 am

    And now, for the last one of the morning, back to the subject of this thread (sorry about that).

    Alan Campbell’s two posts have great merit and are persuasive. As I pointed out at the near-beginning of this thread (oh! it seems so long ago..), it is likely that the choice of the first six countries to whose nationals the proposed bond scheme will be applied has been based on evidence and/or a careful risk-assessment. There are several fairly obvious push and pull factors to explain this first choice identification of high risk countries wrt over-stayers : the difference in economic conditions, traditional links between those countries and the UK, the ease with which visitors can ‘disappear’ (linked to the absence of identity cards), the existence of large communities of those nationals in the UK, language and so on and so on.

  155. Advocates of “devil take the hindmost” privatised healthcare will find food for thought here.

    “Why More Equal Societies
    Almost Always Do Better.”
    Richard Wilkinson, Ph.D. &
    Kate Pickett, Ph.D.

    Based on thirty years’ research, they demonstrate that more unequal societies are bad for almost everyone within them ‐ the well‐off as well as the poor.

    pdf here: http://scholar.google.com/scholar_url?hl=en&q=http://www.mailman.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/wilkinson-and-pickett-poster.pdf&sa=X&scisig=AAGBfm2sSXjS-nqUULV-eBk4CqmCRvLsow&oi=scholarr
    ……………

    @Villager.

    I checked out Mr Krisnamurti and found, as I had half expected, a wonderful man. More Buddha than Sai Baba.

    “All authority of any kind, especially in the field of thought and understanding, is the most destructive, evil thing. Leaders destroy the followers and followers destroy the leaders. You have to be your own teacher and your own disciple. You have to question everything that man has accepted as valuable, as necessary.”

    Jiddu Krishnamurti

    Maybe in thoughts like these lies the olive branch we need?

  156. Truly thankful for the school masterly care from our perfect couple, spiritually balanced by all that rots within.

    ding ding dong, dindongdongding goes the wind chime.

  157. “Is there a collective noun for trolls?”

    I believe it is a distraction of trolls.

  158. By flicking it’s tongue out of it’s mouth, the Komodo Dragon is able to “taste” scent particles in the air to locate both live and dead prey up to 8km away.

    Hence the insight.

  159. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 10:03 am

    @ Komodo

    I have the feeling you don’t know what the Treasury reserve is. To help you: it is a reserve. To be drawn on if annual estimates for any given expenditure area are or are likely to be exceeded.

  160. For those advocating free medical care for people who can afford to holiday in Europe, what have you to say for those who do not have the wherewithal to make the journey? Where is the compassion and clever soultions to their healthcare plight? Out of sight, out of mind huh?

  161. Kibo:

    ‘Maybe in thoughts like these lies the olive branch we need?’

    Agreed. I was trying to say the same thing earlier. To the effect of ‘be a light unto one’s self’. If we actually each did that we would change the content of human consciousness and find ourselves/humanity/the world in a better place. Its an inward process, while being aware of whats going on outside.

    Atm, we are going through a phase which is more a focus on the outside — seeing the same ‘narrative’ play out, signing petitions enjoining protests etc etc while their there is no real attention to the inside. So conflict continues.

    Good you checked out K. I think he was one of the greatest ‘thinkers’ of the last century, if not to ever have walked the earth. As you say, more like the Buddha than all the fake gurus. In fact he has gone a step further by ensuring there is no ‘ism formed around his teachings so that we can all figure things out for ourselves in Freedom. Which is the only way it works. While we don’t need to reinvent the wheel, given that he figured everything out, we still need to absolutely understand what he says for ourselves and not merely at an intellectual level. Hence our understanding must come from our inner ear, at our deepest level of being and become part of one’s dan so to speak. Then we can call it our own — that is real understanding. And the actions that spring from that are completely different in their effect of changing the world and moving it and our lot in a positive direction.

    Enjoy the journey!

  162. Kibo: dan = dna

  163. Of course it is, troll. What you said. It appears under “other spending”, in 2012 and is in addition to the military budget, I assume, until you provide supported evidence otherwise, rather than merely pontificating. But that wasn’t the point, was it?. Annual spending in Afghanistan is ~£10 Bn, Ten years ago (on the “33%” basis, it was ~£7Bn. It has been over £10 Bn annually since 2007. So the total decade spend is significantly higher than you assert. Without a source, as usual. Just blustering.

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/year_spending_2012UKbn_12bc1n_30#ukgs302

    -and follow the links-

    The fact that HMG needs to set aside 40%-worth of contingency cash IN ADDITION to this indicates that the true cost is probably being concealed elsewhere.

    Memo to self, must be more careful about including supplementary info in quoted material. Hubba only does one concept at a time.

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/year_spending_2012UKbn_12bc1n_30#ukgs302

  164. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 10:59 am

    For information

    ‘I’ve got a little list
    He never will be missed…..

    Lord High Executioner – The Mikado – Sir William Schwenk Gilbert and Sir Arthur Sullivan.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_honorary_British_knights_and_dames

    I believe Bratton whom May and Camerom lined up to run the Met was given a gong. Yes. Just checked. A CBE. Amazing that our Evil EmPyre extends to New York and to all the countries in the first list.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Bratton

  165. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 11:20 am

    Portrait of a vulture.

    New trade minister Ian Livingston’s £20m of BT shares ‘a conflict of interest’
    David Cameron criticised over handling of telecom boss’s appointment

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/new-trade-minister-ian-livingstons-20m-of-bt-sharesa-conflict-of-interest-8680618.html

    Good to be reminded of how ‘privatisation’ would usher in competition a la Thatcher.

    I bet no GPO or Post Office Telephones, as it was, senior executive gathered a fraction of this carrion seeking bird. Disgusting – our nation’s carcase being picked clean to be carried to havens abroad.

    PS You might remember the BT ads with Maureen Lipman and the ‘…ologies’
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEfKEzX9QLE

    and the privatisation ad campaign
    http://www.advertisingarchives.co.uk/?service=asset&action=show_preview&asset=42170

  166. And what of Cameron’s visit to lovable teddy bear Nazarbayev?

    It’s all part of a pattern. Not only has the aforementioned soft toy thing hired Blair – for millions – to advise him on how to tickle the West’s tits, but also :

    It’s not just Blair but some of his closest confidents who are working in Kazakhstan: Alastair Campbell has been spotted by the FT flying back from the capital Astana, Jonathan Powell (appropriately the author of a book on Machiavelli) is also apparently involved. Former BAE systems Chair Sir Richard Evans is now Chairman of the state enterprise Samruk, worth a staggering £50 billion that in turn has hired Lord Mandelson for speeches.

    Cosy, innit?

    Forget the pantomime villains, like deceased murderer Kim Jong-Il, the majority of despots are not household names – for a reason. Well paid lobbyists tempt journalists over to write puff pieces on the burgeoning tourism trade. Or outfits like the European Azerbaijan Society use MPs like Mark Field or Mike Gapes to help promote the country’s interests with little reference to human rights violations. Any association, however tangential with our politicians, is hugely symbolic for authoritarian regimes in helping them legitimise their rule within their countries. That Blair is involved is deeply depressing, and should be of concern.

    Labour is having a tough time rebuilding its foreign policy. Tony Blair’s legacy should be anchoring the party as social democratic and internationalist to the core. Instead, Blair is making the case for his detractors – that his foreign policy was guided by self-interest. As one senior member of Blair’s government told me, “towards the end Tony just got too enthralled by wealth”. Since his deal in Astana, it’s a hard case to argue against.

    Mind you, that Cameron is involved is pretty nauseating too, but it is the Telegraph, after all.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/9102135/Why-is-Tony-Blair-lending-credibility-to-Kazakhstans-dictator.html

  167. Factual error earlier, sorry. I commented that Cameron had visited Kazakhstan last year, but my reference was in fact to a telephone conversation between Cameron and Nazarbayev then. The BBC is at some pains to emphasise that this is the first visit to Kazakhstan by a serving PM. Only just. Blair got in there pdq after relinquishing his role.

  168. An oath should fix everything, so the MPs maintain:

    Policing ‘Hippocratic Oath’ will fix bent coppers, MPs hope

    The Commons’ home affairs committee wants the introduction of a new code of ethics and integrity comparable to the Hippocratic Oath taken by doctors at the start of their career.

    Its report, published today, called for unified policing standards, a register of interests for chief constables and a scale of fines established by the College of Policing in cases of grave misconduct.

    It is evident that at long last, there is the realization that bent coppers are a serious and major challenge, and they ought to be tackled, hence the oath (an expensive enquiry, hours of cops investigating cops, the money spent on their trials, what would public think if they found out about the levels of corruption and its extent) would just do fine, if it is associated with Hippocrates.

    This measure solves two problems: cures the bent coppers and guides them to the righteous path, also undermines the bald, hairy, toga wearing Greek do gooder’s reputation, and thus paves the Way for the Drs and Surgeons to see the light and stop being so hung up on code of ethics and all that nonsense. The health professionals ought to start thinking on the economics of the health business. What is good for corporates is good for the nation.

    Although curios as to when are they going to auction off the Police to some privateer in the name of transparency and economic progress? Just think of it, the shareholders could also be the criminals who are raking in enormous funds through their criminal activities. Although there are those who would point out; banksters have not been showing any interest in buying up the Police, it has been only the Murdoch “editors” who had a preference for a private Police force.

  169. 4,000 ‘bent coppers’

    One officer was caught with sub-machine guns, while others brought shame on their forces with sex crimes, drug trafficking, fraud and domestic violence.

    More than 100 of them held the rank of inspector or higher.

    And criminality in the ranks is a growing problem, data disclosed by 34 of the 43 police forces in England and Wales showed.

    Although the article has lots of tertiary “offences” but also points to more substantive crimes such as; “drug peddling”, “intent to supply arms and munitions” (the farmers ought to have moved on from shotguns, and require machine guns), Perverting course of justice”???, “drink driving”, “theft”.

    Certainly it should be understood; all of these criminal activities would cease once the police recruits start swearing their Hippocratic oath. A clear example of why our esteemed politicians need a ten thousands pounds rise in their salary (the what’sit said so, and not the MPs remember), for their wise guidance and counsel , and making our lives a much more miserable experience.

  170. Who spun them this line?

    The Kazakh foreign minister, Erlan Idrissov, explains:

    “Idrissov said Kazakhstan acknowledged the criticism of its human rights record but insisted that it was on a transition to becoming a “Jeffersonian democracy” which would take some time to complete.

    The foreign minister said: “We do hear criticisms. We do not feel absolutely unhappy about those criticisms. We patiently explain to our partners that we are not today a Jeffersonian democracy and that a Jeffersonian democracy is our ultimate destination.”"

    Either their Western advisors are taking the piss, or land of milk and honey here we come…

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jul/01/david-cameron-business-amnesty-kazakhstan-deal-nazarbayev

  171. @kibo noh

    Why equal societies do better-

    Great let’s have the worlds wealth shared out equally and for the radicals amongst us, how about responsibilities shared out collectively, then persuade with love and light.

    Greenhouse and Whitehouse.

    Both need war, water….

  172. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 12:49 pm

    I read the Guardian in a Costalot this morning. What a rag it is now, a little larger than tabloid, 28 pages and a Glastonbury and Sport supplement. £1.40! The online version is better than the print version and it’s free, so far.

    They carried a report on Caneron’s trip and quote him as saying that of course he will raise the matter of human rights in the discussions but he is there for Britain and business. Of course he is. Three of the companies represented in the mission accompanying him are BP, BG and Shell.

    I see he has had an endorsement.

    Kazakhstan’s autocratic president tells David Cameron: I would vote for you
    Nursultan Nazarbayev, who retained presidency in 2011 with 95.5% of the vote, says British PM deserves to win next election
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/01/kazakhstan-president-david-cameron-vote?INTCMP=SRCH

    Cameron is also calling for extension of the EU into the Soviet Union. Is he trying to wind Putin up on purpose?
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/01/eu-extend-soviet-union-david-cameron

  173. ‘Costalot’ – how appropriate – the aroma of coffee invited me in this morning. I abstained.

    Predictably agent Cameron spun his Kazakhstan delivery around an adulterated and tainted need to have an integrated banking system; “you need to have an integrated fiscal system.” he opined.

  174. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 1:29 pm

    ‘I will do anything for money…’ American popstar

    Jennifer Lopez criticised for Turkmenistan corporate gig
    Lopez performed a selection of her hits during the show on Saturday

    Human rights activists have criticised US pop singer Jennifer Lopez for singing Happy Birthday to the leader of Turkmenistan, who is accused of human rights violations.

    Lopez serenaded Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedov in the former Soviet Union country on Saturday night.

    She was performing at an event hosted by the China National Petroleum Corp.

    Lopez’s publicist said she would not have performed had she known there were human rights issues in the country.

    Wake up Ms Lopez and/or publicist.

    Was Lopez the one who mimed at the Obama inauguration? Can’t remember.

  175. Dreolin: “Germany prepares to charge UK and US intelligence over fresh bugging allegations”

    Thanks for that Dreolin. The leaks continue with the latest revelation being that dozens of embassies, including France and Italy in Wash DC were bugged as i undersatnd it.

    Here’s a worrying article on Snowden:

    ” ECUADOR PRESIDENT: SNOWDEN CAN’T LEAVE MOSCOW ”
    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ecuador-president-snowden-cant-leave-moscow

    If i remember correctly, didn’t Russia offer him asylum publicly like when Snowden first spoke out? Can’t be sure. But i’m sure he would rather be elsewhere. Maybe the whole thing is deliberately being made contentious to confuse America? Or is it just bureaucracies at play? It all seemed quite well choreographed by Ecuador initially and then, what?
    —-
    PS What happened to your blue avatar — quite liked it — was easy to spot you!

  176. Strivers v skivers – Karimov endorses IDS?

    http://www.rferl.org/content/uzbekistan-karimov-beggars-migrants-remittances/25028531.html

    Disturbing similarity of approach, there.

  177. Villager,

    “Der Spiegel said the NSA’s German phone and internet surveillance operation was the biggest in the EU. On 7 January 2013 it tapped into some 60 million German phone calls in a single day. The magazine said that Canada, Australia, Britain and New Zealand were exempt from NSA surveillance but Germany was regarded as a country open for “spy attacks”.”

    The Germans are furious.

    “If i remember correctly, didn’t Russia offer him asylum publicly like when Snowden first spoke out?”

    I thought so.

    “It all seemed quite well choreographed by Ecuador initially and then, what?”

    No. Some are saying that Julian Assange messed things up. I don’t know if there’s any truth in that.

    “Correa said he had no idea Snowden’s intended destination was Ecuador when he fled Hong Kong for Russia last week. He said the Ecuadorean consul in London committed “a serious error” by not consulting officials in Ecuador’s capital when the consul issued a letter of safe passage for Snowden. He said the consul would be punished, although he didn’t specify how.”

    I got rid of the blue avatar. It made me stand out like a sore thumb ;)

  178. Posted this on previous thread by mistake:

    Correa’s been leaned on by the US. And fallen flat.

    http://www.newsmax.com/newswidget/assange-snowden-hero-nsa/2013/06/30/id/512659?promo_code=EE9E-1&utm_source=jpost&utm_medium=nmwidget&utm_campaign=widgetphase1

    Kill the screensaver popup – prob. malware.

    I’d guess that the breaking of the story on US spying on the EU has sent the US into panic mode. “What if he’s got hold of (even more damning revelation) too?”

    I’d like to think he has. If only as insurance.

  179. I see that the thread’s emphasis seems to have moved from a debate about how to have an policy on illegal immigration without human rights violations, as to whetever overseas visitors who may need medical attention, should be refused unless the costs can be recoverable from the £3000 bond; a rather spurious & nonsensical justification of the bond proposal, which immediately falls down on consideration that it’s not just visitors from these six targeted “High Risk” countries that could require medical attention, so logically on this criteria the bond scheme would have to be applied to most of the World’s countries; also, what if the medical attention costs more than the £3000 bond, which is already unaffordable to most people ? Rather a harebrained & shallow attempted diversionary line of justification, imho.

    I see that the habby-clown is still clowning around, keeping poor Jon busy in having to zap his comments on a regular basis now, so I will continue to refer to him as the trolling clown, no doubt much to the dismay of his new loyal & hyper-protective acolytes, and did I notice that there is a rumour of Summer wedding bells in that regard ?! Despite our difference, we should all wish the happy couple the best !

    Anyhow despite several exchange of posts, in which Hubbu-Clown has admitted that the proposed bond scheme is ‘discriminatory’ & “unjust and undignified” , yet here he is still trying to defend it ! Also it would have been noted, except by the acolytes, that he not respond to the points either about the “Baiai Case”, or 2010 Labour’s Equality Act, both of which highlight the illegality of blanket group discrimination.

    I still believe that is proposal will not get off the ground, and I’ve seen various reports that it has been scrapped;

    http://news.peacefmonline.com/news/201306/167358.php

    (More later as I’m still a bit Bruce-lagged !)

  180. Fact or Fiction?

    “June 28, 2013 “Information Clearing House – “The Guardian” — The plan to spirit the surveillance whistleblower Edward Snowden to sanctuary in Latin America appeared to be unravelling on Friday, amid tension between Ecuador’s government and Julian Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks.

    “President Rafael Correa halted an effort to help Snowden leave Russia amid concern Assange was usurping the role of the Ecuadoran government, according to leaked diplomatic correspondence published on Friday.

    Amid signs Quito was cooling with Snowden and irritated with Assange, Correa declared invalid a temporary travel document which could have helped extract Snowden from his reported location in Moscow.”

    More at the link
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article35433.htm

  181. Don’t think so, Macky. The piece you cite contains this:

    Foreign Office Minister Keith Vaz confirmed on Saturday that the programme had been dropped for good.

    And I think it refers to the year 2000 when Vaz was indeed FCO Minister, and did indeed kill a bond scheme, on the excellent grounds reiterated by several posters above.

    A case of overoptimism when Googling, I’m afraid – several sites seem to have resurrected this report. Sorry.

  182. Dreolin: “Germany prepares to charge UK and US intelligence over fresh bugging allegations”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-prepares-to-charge-uk-and-us-intelligence-over-fresh-bugging-allegations-8680249.html

    One of the commenters under that article writes:

    “The real terrorists in the modern world caught out. I wonder if Billy Hague will tell Merkel to shut up if Germans have nothing to hide!”

  183. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 2:51 pm

    Kerry, having failed miserably with Israel and getting Netanhayu to stop the settlement building, plays down the EU bugging.

    Spy Row: EU Checks Its Premises For US Bugs
    The EU begins a full security sweep as leaders call on the US to immediately cease any surveillance of European institutions

    ‘America’s top diplomat told a news conference early on Monday that nearly all national governments, not just the United States, use “lots of activities” to safeguard their interests and security..

    Mr Kerry confirmed that EU High Representative Catherine Ashton raised the issue with him but he gave no further details of their exchange. He said he had yet to see details of the newspaper allegations.

    “I will say that every country in the world that is engaged in international affairs and national security undertakes lots of activities to protect its national security and all kinds of information contributes to that. All I know is that is not unusual for lots of nations,” he said.’

    http://news.sky.com/story/1110130/spy-row-eu-checks-its-premises-for-us-bugs

  184. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 2:58 pm

    The real traitors in the US are the banks and the bankers. None of them are being hunted down and prosecuted.

    July 01, 2013

    Full-Court Press on Snowden is a Bad Joke
    The Real Traitors to America are in Washington and New York

    by DAVE LINDORFF

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/01/the-real-traitors-to-america-are-in-washington-and-new-york/

    Meanwhile, the real traitors who have done so much to destroy America are buying politicians of both parties, using their undue influence to gut any effort at real regulation, all the while earning fat bonuses in their corner offices at megabanks like Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Citi Group, Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase and Wells Fargo. No need to extradite those guys in order to prosecute ‘em. They’re right here in the USA. All that’s lacking is a will to bring charges for things like mortgage fraud, derivative fraud, collusion, lying under oath, etc. But Obama’s attorney general, Eric Holder, a former corporate lawyer himself, has already declared that he will not prosecute Wall Street’s banks for their frauds in bringing down the US economy.

  185. “The real terrorists in the modern world caught out. I wonder if Billy Hague will tell Merkel to shut up if Germans have nothing to hide!”

    Kerry (or Heinz Kerry) has gone on record that everybody spies, and spying is good for you!

    This seems to be the directive for the trolls who are filling up the threads with “everybody spies” and “nowt wrong with that” stories. However the EU is diplomatically/politely threatening to stop trade deals. whilst German opposition is asking for Snowden to be given asylum in EU..

    In other passing news; the unrelenting hate campaign against Muslims in UK is bearing fruits; “Kill the Muslims, Pakis”.

  186. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 3:05 pm

    Some of those banks are quoted here.

    1 July 2013
    EU says banks blocked competition in derivatives market
    Deutsche Borse EU says Deutsche Borse was blocked from the credit derivatives business

    The world’s biggest investment banks colluded to stop competition in a profitable derivatives business according to EU authorities.

    Between 2006 and 2009 Deutsche Borse and the Chicago Mercantile Exchange tried to enter the credit derivatives business, but were denied licences to offer trading in the products.

    EU competition officials say that big banks were behind that refusal
    [..]
    In its preliminary conclusion the European Commission named 13 of the world’s biggest investment banks including, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Deutsche Bank and Barclays.
    [..]

    /..
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23128361#

    ~~

    Ex Goldman Sachs new BoE Chairman Mark Carney took the tube to work today. Big deal. A man of the people obviously.

  187. Dreoilin, 2.12pm

    I suspect that’s far from the full story. There’s been an orchestrated smear campaign to undermine Ecuador’s involvement in Snowden’s asylum bid, starting with articles purporting to be based on leaks to Univision about an “NSA-style surveillance system” of Ecuador’s own:

    Exposing the dark forces behind Snowden smears:
    http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/exposing-dark-forces-behind-snowden-smears?paging=off

    and, apparently, the NSA directly theiving from the Ecuadorian Foreign Minister’s email about their internal discussion of Assange’s attempts from within the London embassy to spirit Snowden out of Hong Kong in the nick of time:

    https://twitter.com/RicardoPatinoEC/status/351417796468555777

    (translation in the reply directly underneath Ricardo Patino’s tweet)

    For Ecuador’s true position on both Snowden and the efforts of their own consul and Julian Assange, here are some comments of Correa’s which have not reached the mainstream smear-meisters’ reports:

    Ecuador’s President Correa says Snowden’s fate in hands of Russia:
    http://www.independent.ie/world-news/americas/ecuadors-president-correa-says-snowdens-fate-in-hands-of-russia-29383990.html

    and

    NSA leaker Snowden can’t leave Moscow: Ecuador president:
    http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/nsa-leaker-snowden-can-t-leave-moscow-ecuador-president-1.1347699

    Although the latter article appears to be based on leaks by some of those notoriously dubious sources, “anonymous government officials” (Ecuadorian ones, mind), I think I concur with what Jemand says elsewhere: there’s a lot of shadow-play going on here by both Ecuador and Russia. However, it seems fairly clear that Assange has not messed up or to have fallen out of favour with his hosts. Snowden’s swift transference to Ecuador seems to have got nixed by the US State Dept revoking his passport, and Russia preventing his transference by diplomatic car to Ecuador’s Moscow embassy.

  188. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/07/01/germany-eu-nsa-snowden/2478625/

    Germany summons US ambassador. And

    On Sunday, British newspaper The Independent reported that Germany’s Federal Prosecutor’s office “was preparing to bring charges against British and U.S. intelligence…

    Here’s another fine mess US’s got us into…

  189. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 3:24 pm

    Yes, it’s probably due to some competitiveness between lesser and greater power pacts within Ecuador. It was feared Assange was pulling Ecuador’s strings, or would be perceived as such.

    Typical infighting to secure the best possible path for the ambitious.

  190. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 3:30 pm

    Komodo seems to have blown a fuse with his post at 10h37. This is usually a sign that he has run out of arguments, but that’s by the by.

    Firstly, we are talking about annual expenditure, not expenditure over a decade. Here, Kempe was good enough to provide us with some figures for annual expenditure, namely : 221 billion pounds for social security, pensions and the NHS.

    The point being that (1) this dwarfs annual expenditure on defence (in the wide sense), and (2) this calls into question the sometimes heard argument that any financing gap in social and health spending can be plugged by switching expenditure away from defence.

    Finally, I’m still wondering whether Komodo has understood what the Treasury reserve is, what it’s there for and how it functions. But that’s by the by as well.

  191. You’re right Komodo. It occurs to me that the USA hates everyone (including the poor of the USA). Everything it does at governmental level is motivated by hate and greed.

    https://www.facebook.com/TheUsaHatesYouAndMe?fref=ts

  192. Bond scheme, cont’d

    It does look as if a reverse ferret is in progress, all the same. People who decline to be named allege…

    http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/world/uk-visa-bond-scheme-goes-back-to-drawing-board/article4857704.ece

    Under the original scheme, floated by Mr. Cameron’s fellow Tory Home Secretary Theresa May to cut down immigration levels, India was to be included in a list of “high-risk” countries requiring their nationals to deposit a £3,000 cash bond for a British visa. The other countries were Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nigeria and Ghana — all non-white Commonwealth nations.

    But the strong reaction in India plus the opposition from British businesses, London Mayor Boris Johnson and his coalition partners, the Liberal Democrats, has forced Mr. Cameron to intervene.

    Senior Lib Dem members were reported as saying that Mr. Clegg declined to “sign off” details of the policy.

    “The policy has not yet been signed off. We are in favour of the principle but exact details of how it is to be piloted, including the size of the bond, is still being discussed in the government,” The Guardian quoted a Lib Dem source as saying.

    While a “pilot” might go ahead in November as planned, the final scheme is expected to be narrower in size and scope. It would be “highly selective,” targeting only “suspicious” applicants. A Home Office official said even the names of “high-risk” countries to be covered by the scheme had not yet been finalised.

    Original report is in the FT, apparently (paywall)

  193. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 3:40 pm

  194. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 3:42 pm

    Muslim Brotherhood hdqtrs stormed…

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23125387

  195. Hubba -

    You posted this:

    “NHS budget for this year is £109 billion.

    ANNUAL cost of wars in Afghanistan etc is nowhere near £20 bn although the total spent since 2002 is closer to £40 bn. “Military Subsidies”; figure a guess, plucked from thin air.”
    _________

    A thank you to Kempe for these figures. It would be interesting also to have the figures for annual UK spending on pensions and on social security as compared to that on defence.

    YOU are talking about annual expenditure, details of which are on the link I kindly supplied. I am talking about expenditure, period. You do not determine the parameters of this or any debate. And you appear to accept Kempe’s figure uncritically enough to pass it on as incontestable fact. Which it isn’t. See above for why.

    Re. arguments, as you seem to be under some compulsion to have an argument on trivial points with most of the commentators here, I defer to your extensive collection. But it would be helpful if you could back your pronouncements with evidence which might support them, however tenuously. I offer this suggestion in the kindest possible spirit as you have been here five minutes, are shouting the odds like John McCririck, and are composed entirely of pixels.

  196. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 4:01 pm

    Now the Egyptian army gives the protesters 48 hours…. Or else what?

    BREAKING NEWS:The Egyptian army has given parties 48 hours to resolve political crisis, or it will ‘take responsibility’

  197. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 4:08 pm

    Petition Theresa May for an inquiry into allegations of police smearing of Stephen Lawrence’s family.

    http://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/justice-for-the-lawrence-family

  198. Thanks Arbed – 3:14 pm

    Just about to catch up on that reading now.

Powered By Wordpress | Designed By Ridgey | Produced by Tim Ireland | Hosted by Expathos