Russia versus Greenpeace

by craig on September 25, 2013 2:08 pm in Uncategorized

Russia is casting around for legal measures it can use against Greenpeace.  To any reasonable person the accusation of piracy is ludicrous.  Russia has come to it because there is no other charge over which it can claim jurisdiction.

Under the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, which Russia has ratified and is in force, the criminal jurisdiction of a coastal state operates only within its territorial sea of up to twelve miles.  Beyond that it may have an exclusive economic zone of up to two hundred miles, and a continental shelf may extend even beyond that; but within those zones the rights of coastal states are limited to jurisdiction over economic activity and mineral exploitation.

The Russians appear very aware of the legal position.  When the Greenpeace activists were first arrested, I heard on BBC World Service radio here in Accra a Russian government spokesman say the vessel appeared to be towing a seismic buoy.  Greenpeace explained it was a survival pod.  But the point is, if it had been a seismic buoy, that would have been an economic activity which the Russian government is indeed entitled to regulate, so it was s thought out pretext (though I have no doubt a dishonest one).

Obviously the argument that they were engaged in unlawful economic activity may have justified the original arrest but quickly falls.  What else is left?  The seas above the exclusive economic zone are part of the High Seas – a fact often misunderstood.  The only criminal activity on the High Seas over which a state other than the flag state of the vessel can claim jurisdiction is piracy.  So if the Russians want to bring charges, it is piracy or nothing.

Of course any sensible government would opt for nothing, and accept that demonstrations happen.  The Russian government is not sensible in that sense, and would far rather throw away the international kudos gained over Syria, than admit for one second that Putin is not in complete macho control of absolutely everything.

The stupid thing about all this is that Russia has every legal right to be drilling for oil in the Arctic, a great deal of which is rightly within Russia’s exclusive economic zone.  The Russians have the right to drill, and Greenpeace have the right to protest about it.

What this is not, is piracy.  Greenpeace were not intending to steal or damage any rig, vessel or cargo, or to commit violence.  They were just protesting.  The definition of piracy in UNCLOS is quite clear:

Article 101

Piracy consists of any of the following acts:

(a) any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed:

(i) on the high seas, against another ship or aircraft, or against persons or property on board such ship or aircraft;

(ii) against a ship, aircraft, persons or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any State;

(b) any act of voluntary participation in the operation of a ship or of an aircraft with knowledge of facts making it a pirate ship or aircraft;

(c) any act of inciting or of intentionally facilitating an act described in subparagraph (a) or (b).

 Plainly this is not piracy.

 

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210 Comments

  1. Putin says activists not pirates but “did break the law” -

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-25/greenpeace-activists-27not-pirates27-but-broke-law3a-putin/4981290

    If no law applies, then maybe the law of the jungle, or ‘lawless high seas’ does. 

  2. Prof Michel Chossudovsky was speaking about the future militarisation of the Arctic on RT yesterday. He is well informed.

    Heat over Arctic: ‘Oil & gas may fuel militarization of the region’
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zgkr6Dnshs

    25 Sep 2013

    As world powers team up to secure the ecology in the Arctic, the rivalry over its rich oil and gas resources is heating up. Michel Chossudovsky from the Center for Research on Globalisation explains that the battle for the North Pole is high on the global military agenda. READ MORE: http://on.rt.com/mmwv92

  3. Some discussion of applicability of law in international waters -

    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2250/in-international-waters-are-you-beyond-the-reach-of-the-law

    An interesting part -

    (5) Universal jurisdiction. According to Henry Kissinger, “the doctrine of universal jurisdiction asserts that some crimes are so heinous that their perpetrators should not escape justice by invoking doctrines of sovereign immunity or the sacrosanct nature of national frontiers.”

    Those words might come back to haunt ol’ Henry if he lasts long enough.

  4. Recollecting the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior, and subsequent non molestation of the French interests to date, at least Russians are trying to float a dog and pony show of legality, albeit on a flimsy basis.

    Curious as to why Green Peace has never targeted the gulf of mexico spill? Although Green Peace site tries to tie up the spill to the Russians activity in the Arctic.

    Frankly I am suspicious of Green Peace motives, and I am not quiet convinced they are operating on the level. Therefore it cannot be adduced they are not a clandestine “objector” front shop of the relevant SIS, tasked with spiking the economic activities of the rival economies.

  5. Ok, so now Greenpeace is a CIA funded “front” set up and operated to obstruct non-US resource companies that compete with US companies for resource exploitation.

    Rrriight…

  6. The owner of the TV station that [used to] broadcast/s ‘War on Whales’ has, through banks in the UK, stock in the the very company they chase on TV. Need $$ to protect ya precious hamlet? Dial FUKUSU2 for assistance.

  7. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    25 Sep, 2013 - 3:51 pm

    Russia is growing in some ways, but is this their version of the Tea Party?

    Elton John is not as in your face as Pussy Riot, but he is gay.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/sns-rt-us-russia-gay-eltonjohn-20130924,0,4672770.story

  8. nevermind, get your lead brolly here, and use it...

    25 Sep, 2013 - 4:17 pm

    Greenpeace is hierarchically ordered and does not offer their members any choice for campaigning, they decide on campaigns, and the members pay their dues and tick which ueber choice they agree with.

    I agree with Passerby that Greenpeace is secretive and dodgy.

    Just as the Russian Government is dodgy for even trying to drill in this pristine Arctic area. No time for both of them.

  9. Uzbek in the UK

    25 Sep, 2013 - 4:25 pm

    Old good Russia. Gangsta paradise.

  10. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    25 Sep, 2013 - 4:35 pm

    Enter Paul Watson; another dodgy refugee from GP. He treats his volunteers like whale shit, but he loves those whales. Reminds me of a so-called liberal affliction; those who love the whole world but can’t get along with individuals.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco-Pirate:_The_Story_of_Paul_Watson

  11. Seems like a charge of ‘piracy’ at sea is just as convenient as one of ‘terrorism’ on land. A very convenient catch-all of being inconvenient to a government or its interests, which requires next to nothing by way of proof, but for which the punishment can be whatever the security-state in question fancies.

  12. We’re going to see a lot of mediagenic propaganda drama about how Russia/China/Iran breaches human rights. Only 22 days until October 17.

    Then the world will hear what US government criminals have got to say for themselves. The US regime will have to justify their existence not to journalistic asskissers or town halls policed by gestapo goons, but to independent experts who know their rights. No focus-grouped bullshit campaign issues but the minimal standards of the civilized world. As enforced by the ICJ under Article 38 of its charter, the committee’s conclusions and recommendations override the shit-flinging shaved apes of the supreme court. The US government will go to great lengths to drown that out.

  13. What would we do if Greenpeace tried to board one of our gas or oil rigs in the North Sea or wherever. Have I have missed point somewhere :o )

  14. @Peter.
    Obviously, the nice British government would make them tea and cucumber sandwiches, before locking them up for 14 years under anti-terrorism legislation.

  15. Is Green Peace funded by Israel?

    If I was Putin, I’d feed a great white sperm whale, ‘green peace’ shaped squid, then let the monster loose.

    Oh the irony!

  16. Michael Stephenson

    25 Sep, 2013 - 7:22 pm

    It seems silly to me to always trot out the Russia macho explanation for everything.

    If Greenpeace had tried this in the Gulf of Mexico, they’d have been similarly arrested and likely similarly there would be attempts to charge them with something.

    Would machismo be part of the discussion under those circumstances?

  17. I’m not a friend of Vlad nor a defender of Russian policies. I find it odd that Russia is being attacked from all sides lately, ever since it ripped the winds out of the sails of Unca Sam’s war flotilla. My sense for justice wants everyone to be treated equally under a law ensuring equal rights to anyone.

    You did not choose your family

    You did not choose your background

    You did not choose the color of your skin

    You did not choose the country you were born in

    You did not choose to be circumcised

    You did not choose to love a person

    You did not choose your gender

    You did not choose the school you attended

    I stand up for, and defend, a person’s right to be him/herself.

    Needless to say, children will be kept out of harms way.

  18. Islam Bibi, you too will be remembered.

  19. sea fool was foolish finking was frank fool

    25 Sep, 2013 - 8:43 pm

    Its nice to mull over what are the laws of the sea and how they came about. At first countries tried to colonialize or sea grab the oceans, but soon recognized that this was problematic and so came up with the concept that the high sea was that part of the sea further than a country could fire its canons, hence the territorial waters were those within range and the high sea out of range, as in if we can’t blast them out of the waters from the mainland they are in international waters.

    The law of the sea and the law of space and the law of cyber space are related concepts. If we can use military might to control it then its ours.

    Another though comes to mind: the piracy party and its attempts to free up cyber space.

  20. Pieces of Green – The TEPCO/Fukushima version. Trust US, we don’t glow after dark…

  21. @Peter25 – no need to wonder, greenpeace activists occupied the Brent Spar platform in the North Sea back in 1995, along with accompanying demos of shell petrol stations. They won, Shell lost, nobody was arrested for piracy.

  22. I’ve apparently just crossed into the universe where Jeremy Paxman has a beard. A twitter search suggests others have been crossing the barrier on their on time-lines.

    We clearly are now in the Spock’s Beard Universe

    Beam Me Up.

  23. that’s OK: some activists in Belgium have just been found guilty of “organised crime” for pulling up some (illegal) potatoes:

    Today the Court of Dendermonde, Belgium, convicted 11 activists of organised crime in relation to their participation in a day of action against a GM potato field which took place in Wetteren on May 29th, 2011.
    The activists were convicted of criminal gang forming, criminal damage and resisting arrest, and were given suspended prison sentences of between 3 and 6 ,months, plus fines, damages and court costs totalling more than 25 thousand euros.
    There was some relief among the activists on hearing the verdict, but also concern that this verdict creates an extremely dangerous precedent for everyone who values the right of citizens to freedom of speech. This is the first time that environmental activists have been convicted of organised crime charges in Belgium. The activists plan to appeal against todays’ verdict.
    ”This conviction for organised crime is completely out of proportion with the ‘crime’ of uprooting a few potatoes from a controversial GM crop which was grown for mainly promotional reasons.” said Barbara Van Dyck, one of the defendants. ‘ The aim of the action was to trigger public debate about the introduction of GMOs into agriculture. The field trial itself was later found by a separate court to be unlawful because they did not have a valid permit for the crop.’

    http://www.fieldliberation.org/2013/09/24/24-09-2013-patattenproces-voorwaardelijke-celstraffen-voor-het-rooien-van-illegale-ggo-aardappelen/?lang=en

  24. Btw see problems with Greenpeace as with any large hierarchical organisation but v effective people often work for/with them, national public (and funded) support important?

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/sep/10/activists.carbonemissions

  25. I note Caroline Lucas just got arrested, and is being charged, for being at an anti-fracking demo. Our own country isn’t quite so liberal either. Indeed Lucas is an MP, which makes it worse. Personally I was never awfy convinced about Lucas as an MP, or a leader of a party, but I admire her spirit. And she shouldn’t be facing studpid charges.

    Worth pointing out. I too am a little sceptical about Greenpeace, sorry. I was just erading Charlie Wilson’s war, and was left with the distinct impression that the security services basically can do anything they like. Infiltrate any group they please, for whatever reason they imagine. And they do so, and they get away with it. Infiltrate Greenpeace to draw attention to the many problems in Russia? Perfectly plausible scenario, I think.

    Of course, one mustn’t go the opposite extreme and think that the CIA\Mossad\Whoever is some sort of hegemon force with eyes and ears everywhere, I don’t suppose it’s like that either, even taking into account the recent NSA revelations. Healthy scepticism all round is the cure to such Kafka-esque mind-wanderings. And there are of course many brave, non-spook, people working for Greenpeace, and they deserve better than a stupid trumped-up piracy chargem just as Lucas deserves better than a stupid trumped-up charge …

  26. Greenpeace – I’ve always been a bit sceptical myself about who really runs the show when push comes to shove.

  27. no need to wonder, greenpeace activists occupied the Brent Spar platform in the North Sea back in 1995, along with accompanying demos of shell petrol stations. They won, Shell lost, nobody was arrested for piracy.

    The story of a defunct platform, in those heady days in which al Qiday had no franchises, and the war on terror was but a twinkle in the sick minds of its dreamers.

    And Shell lost and the Norwegian company won; dismantling the decommissioned, the defunct and inoperative platform. Much later (after the dough had been banked) it transpired that the toxicity levels of the substances on board the platform claimed, and the amounts there of on the said platform, were in fact all but “bullshit”.

    Further, reinforcing the general consensus on this thread; green peace is as dodgy as a fucking nine bob note.

  28. Greenpeace owned lock,stock and barrel by the spooks long long long time.

    Word.

  29. C’mon, Jives – say it ain’t so. I still give a monthly subscription to Greenpeace.

  30. Glenn,

    That’s your choice i guess.

    Follow the money…

  31. Sadly , Russia are probably in the right again and Jives is correct.Greenpeace was long ago owned lock,stock and barrel by the spooks and the crazed Marxist Saul Alinsky fanatics. The flawed global warming (now hush hushely changed to ‘climate change’)fad being one of their trojan horses for a globalist corporate system. Anyone who cares to look in to it will see that most of the well meaning environmentalists have long gone. Unfortunately, like Oxfam, the Red Cross (finely tuned lazer guided humanitarian intervention)WWF and Avaaz to name but a few, they just can’t be taken seriously anymore.

    Putin win again

  32. @ Jemand,

    Q: Those words might come back to haunt ol’ Henry if he lasts long enough.

    R: My sentiments exactly.

    @ Glenn/Others,

    Although I’m a tree-hugging, loincloth-wearing, falafel-munching, yoghurt-flogging, sandal-weaving hippie, I’ve never been attracted to Greenpeace. I’m always suspicious when confronted with large, organized whatever. I can’t present any of you solid evidence or facts providing insight into Greenpeace’s daily business and I have to admit that [in the early years] they really managed to drag injustice onto the table and TV screens, but as of late, I dunno.

    I’ve seen too many times how large corporations bought out/bribed the opposition [not the masses, their leaders], so I’ve become very skeptical. Doesn’t mean Greenpeace is doing anything wrong, but it does make me sound like a bitter kind of dude [which I'm not, I hope].

  33. Piracy at Sea has different meanings for different people. For example, Somalians who were fighting to save their country from foreign exploitation – were hunted down by the western powers as “Sea Pirates”.

    http://rehmat1.com/2009/04/15/israel-behind-red-sea-piracy/

  34. This might help in shedding more light on Human Rights Watch as was discussed in another thread on a different page.

    @ Rehmat,

    Q: For example, Somalians who were fighting to save their country from foreign exploitation…

    R: I’m not familiar with the situation on that side of the continent, but if it’s a reflection of what happened/happens on the other side, it would go like this:

    Huge factory ships [Europe/Asia] scoop up most of the fish, leaving local communities with barely anything to eat and survive in what can be at best be described as already extremely harsh living conditions. It’s my understanding that the Somalian piracy has its roots in similar circumstances, where the livelihood of the locals had been destroyed by commercial fishing fleets the world over.

  35. Greenpeace Russian oil rig protesters ‘no pirates’ but broke international law, says Putin

    Addressing an Arctic Forum in northern Russia, the president [Putin] said:

    “It is perfectly obvious that they are no pirates. But they made a deliberate attempt to seize the oil platform. Our law-enforcement agents, our border guards didn’t know who was trying to seize the platform under the guise of Greenpeace.

    http://www.euronews.com/2013/09/25/greenpeace-russian-oil-rig-protesters-no-pirates-but-broke-international-law-/

    So Russia’s not saying that they’re pirates. But climbing aboard an oil rig seems like a fairly stupid thing to do if you don’t want to face arrest, even if the rig is in international waters. I think If I were living in Scotland I’d want the government to arrest unauthorized people climbing aboard a North Sea Oil rig, since they would obviously represent a huge security risk.

  36. @ CanSpeccy,

    Q: … since they would obviously represent a huge security risk.

    R: Very true. I would also like to add the ‘safety’ factor. I had two friends [professional divers on oil rigs] and they always talked about how safety/security was a constant factor that leaned heavily on anyone’s mind. Having unprofessional ‘outsiders’ climb aboard, would, no doubt, raise both issues a few notches.

    What strikes me as odd, is that Greenpeace uses boast propelled by engines running on the same stuff that the Russians are trying to extract via those rigs [in crude form then, of course].

  37. 481,884 emails sent so far

    Free our activists

    Right now, the crew of our ship the Arctic Sunrise are being held by armed Russian Coast Guards after they illegally boarded the ship in international waters.

    The Arctic Sunrise had been part of a peaceful protest against energy giant Gazprom which is poised to drill for the first oil to come out of the icy waters of the Arctic.

    Using a helicopter and ropes, armed Coast Guard officials boarded the ship and started rounding up the activists, assembling them on the helideck. The Arctic Sunrise was circling Gazprom’s Prirazlomnaya platform inside international waters and outside the jurisdiction of Russian authorities, making the boarding of the ship unlawful.

    Please send an urgent email to the Russian Ambassador in London and demand the Russian Coast Guard release the peaceful protesters immediately

    https://secure.greenpeace.org.uk/page/speakout/release-peaceful-protesters?js=false?source=tw&subsource=sunrisetw

  38. nevermind Fukushima, what about arresting a Green MP arrested for obstructing police ?

    26 Sep, 2013 - 9:10 am

    Thanks for bringing this political arrest of an outspoken and principled MP to our attention again, Brendan. We now see the dirty face of electioneering at work, anything to discredit UKIP and the Green Party, absolutely anything.

    They really do not know what they are doing, by this rate of Orwellian measures against legitimate protests we will soon see peaceful protest be pushed underground.

    Who are they going to arrest next? George Monbiot? for just standing there in support next to her?
    Lord Brown has a lot to answer for, because he usurped the energy ministry for his gains, a rights scurrilous scoundrel who should have been hauled over the barrel when he was in power.

    His Lordshit Brown who’s interests lie behind this arrest is rapidly following TB into Hades.

    I fear as this massive public relations mistake will reverberate around the country and bring more membership to the Green party and raise their profile with voters who do care about the impact fracking will have, that the Governments own goal will be followed by more of such erratic actions, using the police for their political aims.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/green-party-mp-caroline-lucas-charged-over-balcombe-antifracking-protests-8839123.html

    How many more good people will be harassed before we wake up in this country and send them packing? or are you all waiting for an Independent Godot/Scotland to scurry off to?

  39. “We’re going to see a lot of mediagenic propaganda drama about how Russia/China/Iran breaches human rights.”

    Of course the best drama is often based on the truth.

  40. Yes Nevermind… The gangsters in charge here, and elsewhere, are in danger of overdoing it. The people will twig it eventually.

    btw It is Browne with an ‘e’. Perjurer extraordinaire and bon vivant.
    http://aboutlordbrowne.com/lord-brownes-relevant-experience/

    His fellow peer has peeped out from his coffin to slag off Miliband. http://news.sky.com/story/1146596/mandelson-criticises-miliband-energy-plan

    Browne’s current interests
    Partner & managing Director Riverstone LLC 2007-
    Chairman Queen Elizabeth Prize Foundation 2011-
    Chairman Blavatnik School of Government Advisory Board 2011-
    Chairman Tate Galleries 2009-

    Mandelson’s current interests

    Directorships
    Director, Willbury Limited (trading entity for Member’s public speaking/writing; remuneration for all work listed in category 2 (except the profit share from Global Counsel LLP) is paid to Willbury Limited)
    Non-executive Director, Sistema (diversified holding company)

    2: Remunerated employment, office, profession etc.
    Chairman and Partner, Global Counsel LLP (strategic advice consultancy)
    Chairman, Lazard International (international financial advisory firm)

  41. nevermind Greenpeace, will George Monbiot be tasered for standing next to her?

    26 Sep, 2013 - 9:55 am

    Two days ago we saw some mindless violence being meted out to a protester, in front of TV camera’s, and at a time when children were watching it.

    Now if its in the public interest to see Dr. Caroline Lucas MP prosecuted for merely refusing to move on, shirley its in the public interest to see Ian Dale’s bad examples of mindless violence prosecuted.

  42. nevermind prosecuting Dr. Caroline Lucas, what about a violent Ian Dale?

    26 Sep, 2013 - 9:59 am

    Riverstone LLC is his new energy vehicle, Mary, especially created for his fracking empire, on the back of the ministries he has usurped. I bet it has a Swiss or Lichtenstein subsidiary were he pays some taxes.

  43. Jives I hope you’re wrong about the spooks owning Greenpeace. It has long been the target of imperialist governments. Was it not the French secret services that blew up the Rainbow Warrior in New Zealand?

    As to any country having the rights to exploit mineral wealth, it might be true under international law, but whether it is morally right is an important issue since the ecosystem of the planet is already in tatters due to mineral exploitation by man.

    I bet Russia kicks itself for selling Alaska so cheaply to the United States.

  44. Clearly it is not piracy, but the GP protesters did
    try and storm the rig, so not unsurprising that the
    Russians would take firm action.

    I find it difficult to imagine that any western nation
    would tolerate similar action – it would most likely be
    classed as an act of terrorism.

    That doesn’t make the Russians right, but the West has
    long since surrendered the moral high ground on matters
    of international law (if indeed they ever occupied it).

  45. We don’t see quite enough of greenpeace on the clyde, been a few years now. they could perhaps take advantage of the support to be rid of the wmd’s as the independence debate heats up.

    Talking of the arctic, here’s a vid of the largest calving ever recorded on film, Amazing .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC3VTgIPoGU

  46. Off topic.

    The cowardly US military can now fly converted fighter-jets as drones.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/the-air-force-turns-this-f-16-into-a-drone-2013-9

  47. (if indeed they ever occupied it)

    Good Point D.E. When one considers how The ‘ west ‘ is responsible for the largest Genocide in history – Native American’s, And how we have Acted Before and Since, allway looking for more Blood, with Disgusting Shits like Bliar always sniffing around, never enough for that little *%$*

    I have no doubt whatsoever that had that been American security forces, most, if not all of the Greenpeace people would be dead

  48. “The cowardly US military can now fly converted fighter-jets as drones.”

    Fearless Russians not far behind them though.

    http://rt.com/news/russian-defense-innovation-fair-803/

  49. Brian Fujisan, and DomesticExtremist, agreed. The difference between the actualities and the narrative, is an ever widening gap, that cannot be ignored, glossed over or hidden.

    Venezuelan president has skipped going to UN, because US would not issue visas for some of his staff. Further, President Maduro has issued a statement;

    Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro said Wednesday he had scrapped his plan to take part in the UN General Assembly in New York to “protect my life” after purported threats on it.

    In addition Bolivian President Evo Morales (the same president who was detained, and his ride searched for Snowden) has delivered his speech in the UN;

    “No guaranteed visas, no guaranteed overflights. We feel threatened, bullied and blackmailed over visas,” he said, adding that the United States “has never ratified treaties related to human rights.”
    #
    #
    “We must seriously think about changing the headquarters of the United Nations,”

    Surprisingly never talked about is the fact that the “advocate general” of the Human Rights (albeit self appointed) has never ratified the treaties on the Human Rights, as it proceeds to bludgeon the “evil doers” and “violators of HR”. High-sounding moral homilies are just about what the US et al are too busy delivering, never mind the facts and actualities.

  50. Pedants’ corner.

    “The only criminal activity on the High Seas over which a state other than the flag state of the vessel can claim jurisdiction is piracy.”

    No – there are others specified in UNCLOS (causing a collision [article 97] and unauthorised broadcasting [109]); and there further types of criminal activity over which some states claim universal jurisdiction, including in respect of slave trafficking, torture, crimes against humanity, some sex crimes, etc. etc.

  51. Although I should add that the jurisdiction of the English courts over UK subjects who commit murder abroad (s9 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 and s3 of the British Nationality Act 1948) applies only to murder committed on land.

  52. Kempe, quite revealing. I wonder if they used their air-defence capabilities in shooting down the two Israeli missiles that were being used to involve the US in the Syrian crisis? If so they must be quite advanced. The Israelis at first thought the Yanks had downed them and called it a ‘joint-effort’.

  53. Human Right Watch and the Jewish Lobby

    @Daniel Rich

    On June 6, 2013, the top United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC) official, professor Richard Falk called on 47-nation body to “investigate” and if found guilty, expel the Geneva-based Israel lobby group, the UN Watch.

    In his latest report, Richard Falk said the UN Watch’s “smear campaign” is carried out in “numerous settings, including at the Human Rights Council, as well as university campuses where Falk gives lectures.” He called upon UNHRC member nations to set-up a mechanism to protect its Special Rapporteurs from the Zionist smear campaign against freedom of thoughts.

    It seems, finally, the good-old Jewish professor has called “enough is enough”, after being a victim of several vicious campaigns by his Jewish groups and their poodles in the US and some EU governments for his removal as a top Watchdog at UNHRC.

    http://rehmat1.com/2013/06/11/richard-falk-calls-for-removal-of-jewish-un-watch/

  54. Kempe, I think your use of ‘fearless’ for the Russians, and my use of ‘cowardly’ for the US were apt adjectives. Russia has not waged war on any other state to steal its mineral resources this century and, to my knowledge not used UAVs to kill indiscriminately unarmed people remotely. Wish we could say the same about the cowardly Yanks. I’m glad we’ve found some common ground.

  55. They are prolly going to the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea if the ship and crew is not released:
    http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/documenten-en-publicaties/kamerstukken/2013/09/25/stand-van-zaken-rondom-het-greenpeace-schip-arctic-sunrise.html

  56. O/T but the most disgusting unpleasantness for the Palestinians who live in Abu Dis.

    By e-mail 26 September 2013

    Last night a new weapon by the Israeli army against the people in Abu Dis: they drove round the main streets and sprayed sewage water everywhere – Descriptions are of the really disgusting smell absolutely everywhere. It entered the houses and the kids’ rooms – and it didn’t clear like teargas apparently does. It hung around in the fabric inside houses and made everyone fear for their health: rumours of possible viruses are going around.

    The Israeli army have been using a lot of tear gas recently in Abu Dis. The children in the Abu Dis schools have lost many of the first school days in Abu Dis, as the army have been shooting tear gas into school playgrounds as well as around the nearby university.

    We are writing to our MP, asking him to ask the Foreign Office to enquire about this, in order to protect the people (and in particular the children) in the face of such attacks. You may want to do the same.

    Does anyone have contact with news media that might cover this particularly the sewage spraying? We know it is not the first time in Palestine, have heard of it in Nabi Saleh and Bil’in when there have been demonstrations, and then last Friday in Aizariah next to Abu Dis. But this is the first time in our ‘twin’ town, right in the middle of all the families, and it must not be allowed to become routine (anywhere)!

    Camden Abu Dis Friendship Association
    Linking together for human rights
    PO Box 34265
    London NW5 2WD
    http://www.camdenabudis.net
    Charity number 1112717

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Dis Located in ‘Area B’ of the ‘West Bank’. 10,000+ residents.

  57. Nevermind. Iain Dale, McPoison’s publisher, has been given a police caution. Smarmy so and so – the very soul of good humour and levity when he reviews the papers on Sky News. He is usually part of a double act with Jaqui ‘Jackboots’ Smith, ex Home Sec/MP.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/10336335/Iain-Dale-accepts-police-caution-after-wrestling-nuclear-protester.html

  58. 26 September 2013 Last updated at 13:58

    Remand hearing for Greenpeace team held in Russia
    Denis Sinyakov in court in Murmansk, Russia

    A Russian court has begun hearings to decide whether 30 Greenpeace activists should stay in custody over their actions during an oil protest.

    Two Russians among them were remanded in custody for two months by the court in Murmansk, a port city north of the Arctic Circle.

    Rulings are expected shortly for the other activists, who come from 18 different countries.

    Greenpeace says the activists were staging a legal, peaceful protest.

    Coastguards arrested them on suspicion of piracy after two scaled an offshore drilling platform.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin has said the activists are obviously “not pirates” but did not criticise their continued detention.

    The charge of piracy carries a prison term of up to 15 years in Russia.

    /..
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24281628

  59. Multiple sources of public knowledge, including testimony from Russian FM Sergey Lavrov, Mother Agnes Mariam el-Salib and Jean Pascal Zanders provide actual evidence that if a neurotoxic agent has been used in Damascus to kill innocent citizens and children that the actual perpetrators can only be the death squads of al-Qaeda and associated criminal gangs in Syria that kill the innocent population to prevent their final defeat by the regular Syrian army.

    Yet again the world was 24hrs close to a Gulf of Tonkin cum Shock & Awe ‘skewed evidence’ or government lies and contrived truth drowning media frenzy induced US/UK air-strike on Syria, murdering, orphaning and maiming thousands of Syrian civilians including babies, toddlers and teens.

    Previously a similar phony war against Iraq amounted to genocide and provoked a terrorist attack in London that murdered 52 and injured 700, some permanently maimed.

    I believe we cannot move from our present dimension and attain a higher level of consciousness without intention.

    Intention is the purpose of a private prosecution under the historical section 6(1) Prosecution of Offences Act, 1985 against PM and First Lord of the Treasury, David William Donald Cameron MP with evidence that he[Cameron]advanced Britain into drafting a resolution accusing the Syrian government of using chemical weapons and authorising ‘all necessary measures’ under Chapter 7 of the UN Charter or in interpretation, incitement to genocide based on lies.

    Private prosecutions are under attack. The Government propose that the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions should be required before any such arrest warrant can be issued.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-case-for-the-prosecution-independence-and-the-public-interest

    It is therefore crucial that the historic common law right of an individual to prosecute is preserved.

  60. “Russia has not waged war on any other state to steal its mineral resources this century”

    Of course there is no oil in Chechenya, but I suppose that was an internal boundary dispute. And of course lets not mention Russia turning off the gas to the Ukraine in the middle of winter in order to encourage more constructive political thinking.

    I think you will find that Putin and his mob have been more interested in stealing Russia’s own mineral resources before turning its attention to the higher hanging fruit in other countries.

  61. Of course the best drama is often based on the truth, as any manipulative two-year old learns, BUT HE did this, HE did THAT, mid-tantrum. In some cultural milieus, little Worthington or little Yuval never does learn that that little trick doesn’t get you off the hook and only increases the obloquy. But if Mommy doesn’t teach you, it takes a lot of grade-school swirlies to break the habit.

    Uh oh, here comes Vlad and Evo and the wrestling team!

  62. John, I am quite confident that all 11 countries that currently employ drones have the same motivations and if preserving the life of a highly trained young person is part of that, why not? Those behind the anti-drone hysteria had to invent something that made drone strikes sound worse than those by manned aircraft and accusations of cowardice (no doubt from people who have never heard a shot fired in anger) have so far been the best they can do. Similar accusations were levelled against WW1 pilots who wanted parachutes.

    http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/aug/03/drone-stocks-by-country

    As for the Russians shooting down that Israeli missile firstly can you provide some proof and secondly explain what Israel hoped to achieve by firing one relatively small missile at Syria? Oh and why the Syrians never protested about it too.

  63. “Greenpeace explained it was a survival pod.”

    Must be true then, even though “survival pods” are usually called “lifeboats” and are best left on the ship so, you know, you can get into them in an emergency without getting wet – which would be very serious in Arctic condtions.

    It wouldn’t be the first time nefarious commercial activites have been conducted under the guise of ‘charity’, ‘aid’ and ‘peace activism’. In fact the ‘survival pod’ would also make a great mobile manned sigint station, and that picture of the Polar Bear – what fantastic cover. In fact it could be handy for all sorts of other things, but a “survival pod” would be very low down on my list.

    This may explain why Greenpeace is more obsessed with Russian exploration than the greatest ever man made environmental disaster that is Fukishima, with one core burying itself deep into the Earths crust and irradiating the entire Pacific Ocean why aren’t they drawing more attention to this instead of diverting media focus away?

    No geopolitical bias in Greenpeace’s activities or the media reporting? Of course not, dear chumps – everything is exactly as they tell you it is.

  64. “Curious as to why Green Peace has never targeted the gulf of mexico spill? Although Green Peace site tries to tie up the spill to the Russians activity in the Arctic.”

    Not curious if one follows geopolitical and commercial motives rather than environmental – why arent Greenpeace warning the world about Fukishima? It’s the worlds worst man-made environmental disaster by a long long way.

  65. technicolour

    26 Sep, 2013 - 4:00 pm

  66. “John, I am quite confident that all 11 countries that currently employ drones have the same motivations and if preserving the life of a highly trained young person is part of that, why not?”

    Why should preserving one life be more important than taking hundreds of lives in unprovoked attacks? Is one life more important than another? Against a perceived enemy that cannot defend his or her self. That is cowardice in my book. There is a factory called UAV Engines at Shenstone, just outside Lichfield, where the majority of directors are Israeli. It is pretty clear where the aggression is coming from, who is funding it, and who is profiting from it.

    At school we were taught that when a big boy hits a little boy that is bullying. The teachers try to stamp it out. For the big boy to hit the little boy means that the little boy is seen as weaker. When the big boy steals the little boy’s sweets, pea-shooter or whatever it is called stealing. When the big boy does not pick on a boy his own size he does not do so for fear the big boy might hit him back. He is a bully towards little boys, but because he is a coward, avoids confrontation with the big boys. As you mention Russia has its own resources, but it also has a means of protecting them, so the big boy goes after little boys. In recent history the oversized, bullying, thieving, cowardly country has shown itself to be the United States of America. I hope by the little parable you can understand what I am trying to say.

  67. “As you mention Russia has its own resources, but it also has a means of protecting them”

    From its own kleptocracy (or bullies as you call them)??????????????

  68. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    26 Sep, 2013 - 4:47 pm

    OK. WTF is Hubble? This was taken yesterday by a backyard setup. There are scads of links debunking the companions to ISON, but no one wondering why we can’t get close-ups with bigger mirrors owned by gubmint.

    https://twitter.com/CometISONnews/status/382943832473473025/photo/1

  69. “…explain what Israel hoped to achieve by firing one relatively small missile at Syria?”

    I don’t think the suggestion is that it was fired at Syria. That would indeed be pointless. The suggestion is it was fired at a US vessel, with the intention of provoking a retaliatory attack – against Syria. You know, a USS Liberty-type doodah.

  70. John – UAV Engines Ltd-do you have the board of directors names?

    I noticed this statement by Amnesty:

    http://amnesty.org.uk/news_details_p.asp?NewsID=18004

  71. The four at the top of the list are the current directors John.
    http://companycheck.co.uk/company/02691211/UAV-ENGINES-LIMITED/directors-shareholders

    I see the company was called Alvis….. originally. That is a good old name from our glory days when we manufactured cars.

    Note the value of assets etc.
    http://companycheck.co.uk/company/02691211

  72. Sorry meant Mark.

  73. “That is a good old name from our glory days when we manufactured cars.”

    We still do and nearing record numbers

    http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Search-Results/Industry-News/UK-car-manufacturing-to-hit-record-high-by-2015/

  74. Thanks Mary – Sick in the stomach that the Norton company was bought out to further the myopic drone killing machine.

    Mr. David Garside must also be filled with horror. He was technical and commercial leader at Norton Motors during their development of the Norton rotary motorcycle engine in the early 90′s.

    David went along with in the development and production of a UAV rotary engine that was meant to be used exclusively in UAV surveillance not murder.

    Norton Motors previously contracted with Freedom Motors to undertake a rotary engine endurance test.

    Mr. Garside holds 11 UK patents and was awarded the MBE by the Queen for his services to the UK Industry. In 1992 he lead a Management Buyout of Norton Motors by an Israeli consortium.

    Mr. Garside retired from UAV Engines Ltd in 2001 but is still a consultant.

  75. Mark I’ve sent you a list which may be out of date. I see Mary has sent you one too. Here also is my article from News Junkie Post.

    http://newsjunkiepost.com/2013/05/24/drones-the-global-empires-current-weapon-of-choice/

  76. Mark, fat lot of effect Amnesty has had in four years. When governments choose to bypass universal condemnation they seem quite capable of succeeding which demonstrates what a disgusting world we live in.

  77. An excellent essay John. Thanks for the historical information. Also well done for your protest there.

    http://www.boycott-israel.co.uk/business-links/123-uav-engines

  78. BrianFujisan

    26 Sep, 2013 - 7:22 pm

    Mark @ 3;17

    Well said, Brave Mother Agnes Mariam el-Salib,

    WhereTF is the rest of church voice’s in all of this, I mean, i’m fkn half deaf i can hear them deafening style( The cowardly Silence ) Talk about Moral high ground. Shits

    Ben

    Yet more strange goings on,

    Hubble has a crappy 2 month old video of ison, its just risible.
    we should be getting good Hubble images by now for sure, Odd to say the least

  79. nevermind prosecuting Dr. Caroline Lucas, what about a violent Ian Dale?

    26 Sep, 2013 - 7:40 pm

    Thanks for your explanation, pedant, what does that make the Mavi Marmara incident? if you don’t mind me asking.

    @Mary. Ian dale’s violence transmitted for all to see justifies a caution, it is not in the public interest to be prosecuted despite the multiple evidence and footage to the contrary.

    Dr. Caroline Lucas refused to move of her own free will and got arrested for not moving on when told to do so, so I believe, but she did not attack anyone and did not obstruct once the police led her away.

    The state of justice today, well can it be called justice at all?

  80. Thanks for your kind words Mary.

  81. For heaven’s sake …
    According to this + earlier threads,

    Greenpeace
    Oxfam
    Red Cross
    WWF
    Avaaz
    Human Rights Watch and
    Amnesty International

    are all dodgy.

    Who am I supposed to send my pennies to, and/or campaign for?

    I assume the DEC are still legit. ;)

    ———————————-

    Saudi Arabia hires Israel occupation profiteer G4S to police Muslim pilgrimage to Mecca

    http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/7502-asrararabiya-g4s-to-secure-pilgrimage-in-saudi-arabia

  82. “That is a good old name from our glory days when we manufactured cars.”

    “We still do and nearing record numbers”

    Assembling is not the same as manufacturing. Putting together a flatpack from Ikea does not make you a furniture-maker.

  83. Brian. I did notice. Dale stood as a Con in Norfolk North in 2005. He came second to Lamb. Then he tried to get accepted in 2007 as the Con candidate in Maidstone for Widdy’s seat but was not chosen. Previously he tried to get selected in Bracknell but was turned down. Third time unlucky. He has given up politics.

    ~~

    ‘Where the law ends, tyranny begins.’ John Locke 1632 – 1704

    I think we are there already.

  84. Dreolin, it is not possible to donate to all charities and some of them are undoubtedly not fit for purpose, keeping an administrative elite in luxury. The one I have no scruples in donating to is Reprieve the charity Clive Stafford Smith set up to defend those imprisoned on very dubious grounds. It has got many prisoners released from Guantanamo Bay, and is working on behalf of Shaker Aamer the last remaining British detainee, as well as others.

    http://www.reprieve.org.uk/

  85. “Of course there is no oil in Chechenya, but I suppose that was an internal boundary dispute. And of course lets not mention Russia turning off the gas to the Ukraine in the middle of winter in order to encourage more constructive political thinking.”

    Just a conspiracy theory.

    Russia cut off the gas supply to the Ukraine because the Ukraine refused to pay for it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_dispute

  86. I wouldn’t try to donate to all of them, John. But I got a heck of a kick in the teeth when Amnesty employed Suzanne Nozzel, and there have been all sorts of suggestions made here about what Amnesty is and is not. I had been a member since I was 21.

    Apparently I can’t put my faith in Greenpeace either. It gets depressing.

    I follow Clive Stafford Smith on Twitter, and I’m aware of Reprieve. But I’m wondering if it’s reasonable to throw mud at Oxfam, Red Cross, WWF, Avaaz, etc. Surely they can’t all be fronts for spooks – or creaming off money to line their own pockets.

  87. Dreolin I am starting to think the bigger the charity the more open to infiltration and siphoning off of donations it becomes. Tony Blair’s charities are big. Tim Spicer’s private army charity makes donations to Help for Heroes to encourage more donations to these mercenaries.

  88. @ Emmpey,

    Q: …why arent Greenpeace warning the world about Fukishima?

    R: What is that word again? Chaqua… Chopah… Oprah… Checkmate?

    @ MJ,

    Q: Assembling is not the same as manufacturing. Putting together a flatpack from Ikea does not make you a furniture-maker.

    R: That assertion won you 1+ fan. Gosh, do I love sharp minds this early in the morning or what?

    @ Dreoilin,

    Sometimes it takes a molehill to understand a mountain. The NYT, WaPo, LAT and BBC are fadng shadows of outlets I used to trust without even thinking twice… Then I did…

  89. Dreoilin: you should certainly think twice about WWF. A German TV documentary from 2011 uncovered a lot of stuff, summary here:

    http://www.gmwatch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=13305:shock-documentary-wwf-and-industry-the-pact-with-the-panda

    Daniel Rich: cheers!

  90. Question to fellow forum members:

    I am of the opinion that ‘public interest’ trumps privacy/secrecy. We [ordinary citizens, aka 'the grey masses'] have a right to be properly informed and deduce our own conclusions based upon unbiased sources and information [I'm really going off the rails now, ain't I?].

    Again [and very personal], I’m stumped [time and time again] to see/hear the reasons as to why I shouldn’t get a particular piece of information.

    Sandy Hooks has been mentioned on this site a few times and it looks like [to me] there’s a serious rift between various sides.

    What’s the forum’s opinion on this piece of news Newtown Police Ordered To Make Public 911 Tapes From Sandy Hook. They refuse.

    As per usual, I don’t take any side/s, I’m just curious.

    Thanks.

  91. There is a line of thinking, Dreoilin, that sez that humanitarian charities are essentially the West’s vanguard in key trouble-spots. Whether this is to say that the entire outfit is suspect, or there are some corporate/state agents “smuggled” in with the good guys, I’m not sure.
    I daresay at the very least these organisations can provide some useful intelligence to those who would misuse it.

  92. It’s an excellent device, the White Widow, I gotta say that. It reminds us, just when it was needed, of who the true enemy is. It underscores the legitimacy of the War on Terror by validating an earlier AQ-style attack (7/7) just when Ghouta had threatened to unravel the whole narrative. Now, exposing the real nature of “our” relationship (what is the base but the original CIA database of operatives!) with AQ elements has been safely submerged again. Very clever.

  93. Thanks MJ, and everyone.

    Shocking stuff about the WWF.

  94. Addressing the UN General Assembly, Obama stressed that President Assad staying as head of the Syrian state is not an option, saying it would create violent space for extremists to operate.

    Anti-war activist Brian Becker believes Washington is just looking for a pretext to push through a military solution to the conflict.

    Whilst this is a Huge Fkn understatement… Brian Becker on good form here -

    http://tv.globalresearch.ca/2013/09/us-wants-bully-un-overthrowing-assad

  95. Anyone who didn’t watch Channel 4 News this evening might not have heard this

    “Exclusive: Channel 4 News learns the alleged leader of the Nairobi shopping mall attack was born a Christian in Kenya and is a former member of the country’s special forces.”

    http://www.channel4.com/news/kenya-terror-westgate-leader-named-exclusive

    “A second man [has] been named by Channel 4 News sources.

    “Known as Khadhab, he is a Somali national who worked in an Islamic bookshop in the Nairobi suburb of Eastleigh. He was arrested and imprisoned in Somalia, and it is alleged he was tortured by the CIA while in custody there.”

  96. In intelligence circles Dreoilin the ‘Nairobi shopping mall attack’ is known as a squirrel; as in “ooh look, a squirrel.”

  97. If that Samantha Lewthwaite was involved in the attack it looks like she got clean away. Would you Adam and Eve it?

  98. A loss for mankind, but a win for the US.

    Fifty-one countries voted against the so-called ‘Israeli Nuclear Capabilities’ measure and 43 states voted for it in what was viewed as a victory for the United States, which opposed the initiative. LINK + LINK

    “No matter how many battles you win, you need a final victory to end the war.”

  99. Yes, Mark.
    So we have 67 people dead, and possibly dozens more bodies under the rubble, for “ooh look, a squirrel.”

    It occurs to me that torture has little or nothing to do with acquiring information. But a lot to do with ensuring a supply of ‘terrorists’, which in turn ensures a never-ending “war on terror”.

    If anyone tortured either of my sons, they’d have another white widow on their hands. Albeit I’m not a widow, and I’d run out of puff fairly fast these days.

  100. “Russia has enough evidence to assert that homemade sarin was used on August 21 in a chemical attack near Damascus, the same type but in higher concentration than in an Aleppo incident earlier this year, Russian FM Sergey Lavrov said.”

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article36348.htm

  101. “Russian news agency Interfax rebutted earlier reports on Wednesday made by Western news agencies that claimed that a deal between the United States, Russia, France, China and Britain on wording of the draft resolution on destruction of chemical weapons in Syria had been reached.

    “The alleged report claiming that five Security Council agreed on the main part of the resolution on Syria is not true. The Russian delegation was extremely surprised by the appearance of such information,” a source from the Russian delegation told Interfax.”

    (Link above)

  102. @BrianFujisan – Brian Becker is affraid to say the word AIPAC. It’s Israel which wants a pro-USrael regime change in Damascus.

    Clare Short, former British MP and secretary of state for International Development has claimed on her blog that the US-lead war on Syria has nothing to do with “achieving democracy and dignity but to overthrow the regime in order to weaken Iran and Hizbullah.”

    “It is deeply hypocritical of Obama, Cameron and the rest to demand action on the use of chemical weapons because it is a breach of international law when they will take no action as Israel continues to breach international law in its behaviour in the occupied territories. On this we have the 2004 advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice, the highest authority in the international system on international law, which makes absolutely clear that Israel is in grave breach of international law in the occupied territories. The US and the UK constantly denounce Russia for making impossible Security Council authorised military action against Syria when the US, almost always supported by the UK, constantly blocks any action whatsoever to try to restrain Israel’s breaches of international law in the occupied territories,” said Short.

    http://rehmat1.com/2013/09/19/clare-short-syria-is-under-attack-to-weaken-iran/

  103. “Whistleblowing and Immunity in Ireland”

    http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2013/09/whistelblowing-and-immunity-in-ireland/

    I see that Jonathan Sugarman reads and comments on the above site.

  104. Iran, Russia agree to build new nuclear plant [a cluster of four, actually].

    Obambi and Mcwhine have snubbed Vlad as a man not fit to lead the Russians. Is this Putin’s way of giving both men the middle finger [in acting, not 'pledging']?

  105. Iran After Ahmadinejad

    A Chatham House discussion – On the record i.e. NOT Chatham House secrecy rules:

    Primer:

    Shahram Chubin is based in Geneva, focuses his research on nonproliferation, terrorism, and Middle East security issues. He was director of studies at the Geneva Centre for Security Policy, Switzerland, from 1996 to 2009.

    At the Herzliya 14th conference (member Dr. Dov S. Zakheim) on Iran’s Nuclear Posture.

    http://www.herzliyaconference.org/eng/?CategoryID=444

    Dr Chubin: And let me tell you in advance what my conclusion is. I argued that Iran is seeking nuclear weapons, or at least an option, but we don’t know which. I don’t think this will make Iran more aggressive, but you cannot be sure. And there are two reasons for that, of course. One is the nature of the regime, and the other is the impact the acquisition of nuclear weapons would have on the behavior and the goals and the attitude of that regime. As I said, Iran is of special concern for those two reasons – the nature of the regime and the impact the weapons would have on its behavior and goals.

    Chatham House – nerve center for the War on Terror.

  106. am still posting Nairobi updates on page 4 of previous thread, incl policewoman interrogated for hours after saying her NIS brother warned her not to go to the Mall Saturday.

  107. Dreoilin,

    “It occurs to me that torture has little or nothing to do with acquiring information. But a lot to do with ensuring a supply of ‘terrorists’, which in turn ensures a never-ending “war on terror”

    **************

    Yes indeed Dreoilin.

  108. The British angle as you see but a good factual report. Note the metal cages.

    Brits Held In Russia Over Oil Rig Protest
    Six Britons are are being held in Russia along with several other Greenpeace activists over an Arctic oil protest.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1146853/brits-held-in-russia-over-oil-rig-protest

  109. The BBC finished the day as it started it ….

    ‘Iran’s nuclear weapons programme’

    ‘the prospect of a nuclear-armed Iran’

    In 2012 they broadcast

    ‘The Iranians delight in the latest advances in their nuclear programme.’

    ‘Iran has announced new developments in its nuclear weapons programme’

    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1380238575.html .

  110. Whereas Gilad Atzmon does not hold back.

    Now’s The Time To Strip Israel of its WMDs
    By Gilad Atzmon

    September 26, 2013

    The Israelis are not very impressed with Hassan Rouhani, the new Iranian president. Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu ordered Israel’s delegation to boycott his appearance at the United Nations General Assembly on Tuesday and later denounced Rouhani’s address there as “a cynical speech that was full of hypocrisy.”

    But Israel seems to be alone this time. Both the United States and other Western nations appeared to warmly welcome the new Iranian president at the UN.

    /..
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article36350.htm

    Netanyahu’s speech to the UNGA is awaited!
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.549160

  111. This should be an interesting dilemma for those Israelis with dual American nationality.

    ‘Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

    The number of Americans giving up their citizenship has rocketed this year – partly, it’s thought, because of a new tax law that is frustrating many expats.

    Goodbye, US passport.’

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24135021

  112. Daniel Rich 26 Sep, 2013 – 10:24 pm. Public interest in law does not mean what people may at first think, certainly not what I first thought it meant, that is, in the interest of the public. In fact it means quite the opposite in law. You might think that it is in the public interest for the public to know whether the conflicting evidences regarding the moving of Dr David Kelly’s body at the scene of death, but a delegation of doctors, medical professionals who have collectively seen many corpses from all kinds of deaths, has been refused access to photographs of the body, because it is not considered to be in the ‘public interest’. These photographs will not be available to the public until 2073 when many of us may no longer be alive.

    Public interest in law means more what authority considers should be in the public domain. All kinds of arguments are used the favourite being that the request has not been made by a ‘properly interested’ person. You might think that a highly-qualified medical professional like Dr David Halpin, who occasionally contributes to this blog, might be considered a properly-interested person. You would be wrong.

    Another favourite argument for why there cannot be an inquest into the death of Dr David Kelly is because it might cause upset to the family. This is the most ridiculous of arguments. The purpose of an inquest, a requirement in law though not observed in this case, is to see that the interests of the dead person are considered. It is not unknown, in fact it is not uncommon, for a family member to be responsible for another’s death, though I’m not suggesting this in the Kelly case. The upset to family argument is really clutching at straws.

    It might seem like I have gone off at a tangent, which perhaps I have, but because I was not aware of what ‘public interest’ actually meant before acquainting myself with the Dr David Kelly case, and now I do I see it is another sham phrase meant to deliberately designed to mislead. So when you hear on the news that certain information has been released in the public interest the question to be asked is what did they not release?

  113. ” . . . and now I do I see it is another sham phrase meant to deliberately designed to mislead.” Yes. Should read “. . . and now I do I see it is another sham phrase deliberately designed to mislead.”

  114. Oddie

    Had a look at page 4 of previous thread….cheers for updates

    it all looks like genuine info, hope they leave the Pregnant policewoman alone now.

    I can see this one already getting out of hand – as management controll opp

  115. Yes to all, the anomalies with Westgate are starting to pile up now and I notice the White Widow thread has plummeted down the Beeb’s newslist, a sure sign that the story is being dropped.

    Was Westgate actioned to shore up a grand narrative that was starting to look decidedly shaky? Russia Today has stayed focused on Syria, rather than chase the squirrel. Nice word that, Mark. Never heard it used before in context.

  116. Mary

    Re ‘Iran’s nuclear weapons programme’

    The Master of the Universe Speaks, on our Knees and Listen up in Awe

    “You certainly need to see more than words, yes the rhetoric is different and the speech may be different and I welcome that…”

    “Iran could come and demonstrate cooperation so the actions they need to take are fairly clear”

    Blair said during an interview with Al Arabiya’s New York Bureau Chief Talal al-Haj.

    Blair stressed that the Iranian government should show more cooperation with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), noting that the agency had been critical of Iran recently.
    He said to the IAEA and the international community.

    The Little evil Fuckwit makes me ill

    http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/world/2013/09/26/Tony-Blair-.html

  117. Scientists are 95% certain humans causing climate change

    Scientists were 100 percent sure Earth was flat.

    Scientists were 100 percent sure Sun ran around Earth.

    Scientists were 100 percent sure Earth was at the centre of the universe.

    Scientists were 100 percent sure spontaneous generation, was the only cause of life.

    Nothing changed then?

    Although the greedy banksters are bent on selling us the oil, and then charging us for the emissions, as the water companies do, sell the water after and charge for taking it away too. Nice going; for fleecing we the people.

    The same old tired polar bear spending his time on an ice slab during the Arctic summer is passed as the fault of the flatulence of the cow that was fed to me, that helped me to drive the car that emitted the fumes, that in turn made the Arctic warmer!

    The degree of certainty leaves little doubt that greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide and methane are responsible for climate change and compares to a finding of 90 per cent certainty in the previous – fourth – assessment six years ago. This, in turn, was a significant increase on the 66 per cent certainty reached in 2001′s third assessment and just over 50 per cent in 1995.

    Just like war on terror, there are new converts everyday, swelling the ranks of the believers, and the grantees, and the granted. Money talks!

  118. BrianFujisan said;

    Blair stressed that the Iranian government should show more cooperation with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), noting that the agency had been critical of Iran recently.
    He said to the IAEA and the international community.

    The Little evil Fuckwit makes me ill

    Agreed, and ditto.

    The very same IAEA and the international community. that completely ignored the shitty little strip of land’s nuclear bombs, and thermonuclear bombs. By bribing its way to ignore the very clear and present dangers of WMD in the possession of a bunch of psychotics suffering from persecution complex, as their erratic historical conduct attests.

    ====

    Serfdom is just fine and dandy;

    The police inquiry is continuing but prosecutors have not been asked to consider charges against the former head of A4e, the entrepreneur Emma Harrison, who last year quit her role as the Government’s “family champion” as allegations unfolded.

    Welfare-to-work employees face fraud charges

    In the other news a mother has been found guilty of defrauding the DSS for an extra tin of formula for her toddler! (Justice indeed)

  119. O/T Supermarket petrol price war breaking out.

    Unleaded yesterday 137.9p/l

    Today 129.9p/l

    Why now? Are oil prices falling?

  120. Should be interesting. Should we send Mrs Hodge over to Nairobi?

    ‘Kenya’s Westgate siege: MPs to quiz security chiefs
    Kenya’s security chiefs have been summoned to appear before parliament’s defence committee for questioning over the Westgate mall siege.

    The BBC’s David Okwembah says a blame game is playing out in the Kenyan media, with various security agencies pointing the finger at each other.’

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-24298677

  121. Mary 27 Sep, 2013 – 8:01 am

    “The number of Americans giving up their citizenship has rocketed this year – partly, it’s thought, because of a new tax law that is frustrating many expats.”

    The new law “… to track down the wealthy tax-dodgers” is called the “Foreign Accounts Tax Compliance Act.”
    Nice try, US legislators, but couldn’t you have added one more word (beginning with ‘T’).

  122. Passerby To continue….

    Serious Fraud Office considers probe into Serco over tagging

    Thu Sep 26, 2013

    (Reuters) – Global outsourcing group Serco could be investigated by Britain’s Serious Fraud Office (SFO) alongside rival G4S after an audit showed they charged for tagging criminals who were either dead, in prison or never tagged at all.
    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/09/26/uk-serco-sfo-idUKBRE98P12Q20130926

    Yet Agent Cameron continues to give these tricksters contracts to run public services.

    Remember their fraud on the £32m contract to run GP out of hours service in Cornwall. Jul7 2013

    MPs condemn Serco for substandard out of hours service in Cornwall

    A private firm providing a GP out of hours service in Cornwall has been described as bullying and inhibiting staff from whistleblowing when things started to go wrong.

    In a highly critical report published on 11 July by the parliamentary public accounts select committee, MPs accused Serco of bullying employees, providing a short staffed and substandard service, and manipulating data to hide the truth.

    Out of hours GP services in Cornwall are provided by Serco for NHS Kernow, the clinical commissioning group for Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly, as part of a five year contract worth £32m (€37m; $47m).

    http://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f4479

  123. O/T Supermarket petrol price war breaking out.

    Unleaded yesterday 137.9p/l

    Today 129.9p/l

    Why now? Are oil prices falling?

    They clearly have a glut in the Surrey Alps following everyone being kettled in their homes last weekend!

  124. “Scientists were 100 percent sure Earth was flat.

    Scientists were 100 percent sure Sun ran around Earth.

    Scientists were 100 percent sure Earth was at the centre of the universe.

    Scientists were 100 percent sure spontaneous generation, was the only cause of life.”

    They were hardly practicising scientists in those days more like religious fundamentalists – scientists tend to look at the evidence religious fundamentalists look to their prejudices.

  125. Greenpeace worker Alex Harris’s family to fly to Russia
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-24296083#

  126. Yes, it is a pretty bold, indeed arrogant statement to say that scientists (who?) claimed that the world was flat and now (the very same?) scientists speak of 95% certainty of anthropogenic climate change, and therefore imply that scientists (and science?) now has no credibility.

    And I think it was the priests who said that the Earth was at the centre of the universe while ancient philosophers conceived of other planetary arrangements that conformed more closely to their observations.

    I offer this to climate change “sceptics” – A camel’s burden might go through many natural cycles, some of them extreme, but the straw that broke its back was placed there by man.

  127. ‘The fall in forecourt prices will be a huge relief for motorists who, only weeks ago, had been warned they could be hit hard by the continuing instability in the Middle East.

    But the easing of tension, especially with both Britain and America ruling out an attack on Syria, has seen oil prices on the world market drop.

    Since the second week of this September, after the US and Russia defused the Syrian chemical weapons crisis, the wholesale price of petrol has fallen from 47p a litre to just below 45p a litre. It had hit a late summer high of 52p a litre in the last week of August.’

    Supermarkets launch new petrol price war
    A supermarket forecourt war has erupted with Sainsbury’s cutting the cost of unleaded by six pence a litre. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/10336095/Supermarkets-launch-new-petrol-price-war.html

  128. France joins the kill-by-drone brigade.

    France conducts its first MQ-9 Reaper flight
    http://www.janes.com/article/27464/france-conducts-its-first-mq-9-reaper-flight

    L’austérité? Quels austérité?

    ‘France formally requested the purchase of 16 Reapers for USD1.5 billion in a US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) request of 27 June.’

  129. A non optimistically stated;

    They were hardly practicising scientists in those days more like religious fundamentalists – scientists tend to look at the evidence religious fundamentalists look to their prejudices.

    Indeed, yet they claimed thus, as the current batch claiming to be “Scientists” these days, do. (science is a new phenomenon too, a kind of a modern concept) Evidently.

    Interesting, that keyboard warriors have been mobilised to defend the human hating, big bang believing, grant seeking, “scientists” who can so easily apportion blame to the humanity, and we should all accept that! (supremascists says so, because of their “piercing obser….” etc.)

    Earth is not part of the solar system that is not a part of the milky way that is not hurtling in the directions unknown ……

    Earth is a closed system that has been around for the last few hundred years (because the logs kept are that old), or was it “6000 years”? Never before Earth has experienced ice ages, or climate changes, calamitous astral bodies crashing into it, and species have not ceased to exist, and ………..

    =====

    Mary, it continues;

    Lord Rennard will not face criminal charges over sexual harassment allegations

  130. Yes Passer By I noticed that the oleaginous creature had slithered away on his own slick of oil. Nice one facilitator Cleggover.

    I prefer the pic of him dressed in crimson and ermine!
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/liberaldemocrats/9891144/Lord-Rennard-scandal-Party-insiders-fear-a-dozen-victims.html

  131. Nick Clegg admits his office knew of Lord Rennard rumours for five years
    Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg has been forced to admit his office knew for years of claims that a senior party figure might be sexually molesting volunteers and staff. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/liberaldemocrats/9891352/Nick-Clegg-admits-he-knew-of-Lord-Rennard-rumours-for-years.html

    Were these claims invented?

  132. And a member of LD Friends of Israel.
    http://www.parliament.uk/biographies/lords/lord-rennard/2484

  133. “Never before Earth has experienced ice ages, or climate changes, calamitous astral bodies crashing into it, and species have not ceased to exist, and ………”

    Yes, we know all that, sarcasm or not.
    But it’s no argument against current man (and woman) made global warming. (Or climate change, for those who insist on pointing at scenes of snow in various parts of the world.)

    I’m sick of looking at teabaggers who can barely count up to 10, blogging pictures of snowey scenes from around the U.S. and writing “Global warming? Bwahahahahahahahaha!”

    I won’t be alive when they change their tune, but for that alone, I wish I could be.

  134. I can’t bear to look for any more.

    He is one of the Lords who has an interest in the private sector and who voted ‘loyally’(from another website) for the Health and Social Care Act, 2012 which allows for privatisation of the NHS.

    Sunday, 25 March 2012
    One in Ten Liberal Democrat Peers have financial links to Companies involved in Private Healthcare

    5. Lord Rennard: Director, British Healthcare Trades Association (BHTA) – Voted loyally on the Health and Social Care bill – The BHTA’s purpose, as a trade association, is to ensure that the market for healthcare and assistive technologies is competitive, profitable and well-regulated. They work in partnership with industry, government, and other stakeholders. Set up a communications company with his wife called Rennard & McTegart Ltd. through this company provides public affairs advice to the British Healthcare Trade Association. Rennard & McTegart Ltd provide management, campaign, communications and fund raising consultancy.

    http://socialinvestigations.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/one-in-ten-liberal-democrat-peers-have.html

  135. “Scientists were 100 percent sure Earth was flat.”

    No they weren’t, people have known the earth wasn’t flat since the stone age, that is a myth originated by a work of fiction about Columbus written in the 1930s.

    “Scientists were 100 percent sure Sun ran around Earth.”

    Scientists knew the earth revolved around the sun, they just couldn’t say so because it was illegal to contradict the bible. Ancient astronomers couldn’t have done the calculations they did if they hadn’t known the workings of the solar system.

    It was another of those cases where people spent their whole lives studying, becoming experts in their field, gathering and analysing data then just getting shouted down by people who knew nothing, understood less but had beliefs.

  136. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Sep, 2013 - 3:58 pm

    Excerpts from ” Family of Secrets: The Bush Dynasty, America’s Invisible Government and the Hidden History of the Last Fifty Years.” in serial form.

    Here’s the first two.

    http://whowhatwhy.com/2013/09/16/part-1-mr-george-bush-of-the-central-intelligence-agency/

    http://whowhatwhy.com/2013/09/25/part-2-viva-zapata-3/

  137. Fred 27 Sep, 2013 – 3:52 pm
    “No they weren’t, people have known the earth wasn’t flat since the stone age, that is a myth originated by a work of fiction about Columbus written in the 1930s.”

    And of course columbus and other explorers were never in fear of falling off, which might have been expected had they believed in a flat earth. I am surprised by the recent birth of this myth. What book was it fred?

  138. If you look at the horizon at sea you can see the curvature of the earth. The Egyptians and Babylonians were more clued up than AD scientists mostly because the Catholic Church taught that the earth was flat, though where it got that teaching from I don’t know. The church told Copernicus to go and try again when he was making such solid progress in restoring knowledge that had been lost. A good book on the subject, though like me a bit dated now, is “The Sleepwalkers” by Arthur Koestler.

  139. “And of course columbus and other explorers were never in fear of falling off, which might have been expected had they believed in a flat earth. I am surprised by the recent birth of this myth. What book was it fred?”

    They would have been using navigational instruments which relied on a knowledge that the earth was spherical.

    I just did a quick google for the book, it turns out it was actually written in 1828, not that far out.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_History_of_the_Life_and_Voyages_of_Christopher_Columbus

  140. “Interesting, that keyboard warriors have been mobilised to defend the human hating, big bang believing, grant seeking, “scientists” who can so easily apportion blame to the humanity, and we should all accept that!”

    No we just believe in the scientific method – you know formulate hypothesis based on observable evidence, test hypothesis with further evidence, if hypothesis not supported by the evidence either abandon original hypothesis or develop new hypothesis based on existing evidence. Most scientists are more than happy to admit when their hypotheses are not supported by the evidence, the degree of (statistical) certainty that can be attached to their current hypothesia and where further work is required – if you look more closely at the recent announcement you will see that scientists are more than happy to admit that they don’t yet have an explanation as to why the rate of temperature increase has slowed down in recent years.

    Of course you could use the alternative of formulating a hypothesis on basis of pre-existing prejudice (or faith if your prefer), select any evidence that you believe supports your hypothesis, reject any evidence that doesn’t (and just shout down/ignore/rubbish those people who put forward such awkward alternative views)and carry on in blind ignorance ad infinitum?

  141. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Sep, 2013 - 4:48 pm

    “If you look at the horizon at sea you can see the curvature of the earth. ”

    Not sure of the origin, but crow’s nest spyglassing revealed the top of the mast coming up on the vanishing point and rising higher on the ships approach.

  142. “They would have been using navigational instruments which relied on a knowledge that the earth was spherical.”

    Not quite

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=earth-is-not-round

  143. The irony of it all!

    It now transpires; stone age men despite not discerning their elbow from their temple (semiotics difficulties aside) however the said apes did know Earth was round!

    The fact is going missing upon the participants; reality is open to many interpolations. Each time line of experience will be bringing a differing aspect of reality as it has been experienced to the fore. However, given the degrees of misanthropy and hatred of humanity as a whole. This promoted by the vested interests. Thus the hatred that is apportioning the blame on humanity, somehow remaining a constant is over looked.

    The current “climate change” (climate is a constant evidently, no seasonal changes, no time dependence, and no relationships to/correlations with the nothingness (space) that is next to it) not taking account of many other factors, somehow “climate change” debate always end up with urging we the people to;

    1- Pay more for our energy use; expensive energy means parsimonious use of energy. Hence the OAP dying from hypothermia is in fact part of the price to keep our climate from changing.

    1.a- The charge hands of the plutocrats like the notion in 1, because the best way to raise taxes from the captive audiences is to exact a higher taxation tariffs from their daily needs for energy. further there is the “carbon credit” that is to be traded, making even more money, for the plutocrats. (who is paying for it all?)

    1.b- The corporates like it; gives them a plausible excuse to engage in shallow, and theatrical endeavours to keep the climate from changing while making sure the bottom line stays pretty healthy for the benefit of the shareholders.

    2- The climate change is evidently, hinging on all things “carbon”. This scarce element that is not forming the whole basis of life on Earth has come to be the culprit that ought to be kept at leash.

    2.a- Carbon foot prints are calculated for every pound of meat, for every mile of travel, for every piece of footwear, and so on …

    2.b- Carbon foot prints are not calculated for “Howitzers, Tanks, Helicopter gunships, fighter jets, destroyers, submarines, missiles, machine-guns, rifles, soldiers (training thereof) ordnance, and discharge of the said ordnance for practice and during the various wars that has been waged upon various nations.

    3- The misanthropy so prevalent overrides sense and reason, to blame the victims of the corporate and government mismanagement, and to further extort any residual income at the disposal of the these victims; that is you and I.

    The simple fact that Nuclear energy is out, the Hydrocarbon energy is out, however the wind power is in, and the solar power is in, should be a good enough reason to doubt the integrity of anyone pontificating thus. However the cognitive dissonance; “what about the children” trumps all reason, and opens up a whole new game of “what if” scenarios that are taken seriously and prevaricated about.

    Pavlov dogs were conditioned with food, our societies are conditioned for; hatred, condescension, and “the others are dumb”.

    Little knowledge is dangerous, and whence futurology forms the basis of any dogma/transaction, it is indeed new territories for exploitation of the same dumb masses under a differing pretext!

  144. @Passerby

    Take a look around you. You are surrounded by evidence of scientist’s hypothesis that proved correct. the computer you are using, the electricity which powers it, the phone lines it’s connected to and the wireless router. The mobile phone, the GPS which relies on Einstein’s theory of relativity being correct.

    Yet you produce a list of myths to try and prove that they always get it wrong.

  145. @Passerby

    Is your post at 5:26 pm supposed to debunk the idea of man-made global warming? Because it doesn’t.

  146. Passerby 27 Sep, 2013 – 5:26 pm

    I believe that man made climate change is a real threat. Previous to your comment I thought I thought this because of the overwhelming scientific consensus. But thanks I now realise I am just a dogmatic, pavlovic, dumb, wind-loving, gullible misanthrope.

  147. I hope that there is a big turnout for Caroline Lucas on October 9th at Crawley Magistrates’ Court.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/green-party-mp-caroline-lucas-2299663

    Looking at the photo here, I should think that her right arm was bruised by the policeman. She was not resisting arrest as far as I can remember from the video at the time. Was it necessary to put her in that grip PC Whoever-you-are?

  148. John – Galileo was imprisoned, and then placed under house arrest, for his beliefs which were based on Copernicus’s theories.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

    We have moved on slightly since the C17 thank goodness.

  149. An email kindly sent by the great ngo Avaaz;

    “But acting to reverse the damage to our planet will take courage and politicians have used the false “climate debate” fueled by right-wing climate deniers as excuses for inaction. That’s why big oil and energy spend so much time funding junk science to question the fact of climate change and the plan needed to reverse its devastation.”

    So anyone with a different view about climate debate (the term man made global warming has been dropped now) that doesnt fit in with the world’s government funded scientists are “right-wing climate deniers”

    This nonsense has to end

  150. nevermind Ian Dale's caution for being violent in front of children, what about caroline Lucas?

    27 Sep, 2013 - 6:46 pm

    Yes it looks like the concern for her was planned, Mary. Ian Dale still keeps his column in the EDP and I’m about to write a letter on the issue.

    Cameron now makes fracking noises and talks about Labours own goal,in promising energy price freeze. These energy companies are blackmailing us if they can’t have their mega profits.
    Thing is,these pirates will now raise the prices quarter annually to make a buck before Ed might come to power, its all happening on our backs.
    Labour should have talked of nationalisation, not stalling prices, what a bunch of pussy cats. Nationalise all energy generation, the grid and the gas terminals, build our own gas storage facilities, screw Centrica’s oligarchs.

    Nationalise the lot, except community energy generation schemes, self generation, power derived from wave and sea currents and community owned wind farms.

    Never been to Crawley and have stuff to do on the 9th, but I think there are going to be thousands and the police will try and stop buses approaching, plenty of scope for harassing her supporters.

    Would be good to know how many supermarkets are nearby, for parking, and were one can get a decent cuppa/nosh.

    Its in the public interest top free Caroline Lucas, there and then, case dismissed for wasting precious public money on fluff, CPS, not at all in the public interest!

  151. BrianFujisan

    27 Sep, 2013 - 7:03 pm

    Looks Like Japa Finally getting the Message, wonder Who will Follow -

    Naoto Kan speaks out
    Japan’s prime minister at the time of the nation’s worst postwar disaster tells Edan Corkill about his political principles, his mistakes and his ongoing anti-nuclear mission — as well as what really happened, and might have happened, in the dark days of March 2011

    “When the plant was constructed back in the late 1960s they actually excavated a bluff so that they could build it lower down and closer to the sea’s level. It is a site where groundwater naturally seeps from the mountains and into the sea.

    So the risk of what’s happening now was recognized early on (after the March 2011 events), and I instructed the joint crisis headquarters to consider a suggestion that subterranean walls be built down to the bedrock around the plant. But Tepco decided that was going to be too expensive, and opted only to build a wall on the seaward side. [Construction began in October 2011.] What’s happening now demonstrates that this piecemeal approach was insufficient.

    Now the proposal is to make a wall of frozen soil around the plant, which will apparently be cheaper because underground utilities going into the plant — cables and so forth — will not have to be severed”.

    http://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2013/08/31/people/naoto-kan-speaks-out/#.UkXFm3-yk4e

    Nevermind did you check out the wee video i left for you on page 4 of the Gordon Brown thread, SHARP Stuff

  152. nevermind, its in the public interest to prosecute Ian dale for GBH

    27 Sep, 2013 - 7:07 pm

    Caroline’s statement taken from her site.

    “25 September 2013

    Caroline Lucas said:

    “Sussex police have today confirmed I am being charged with two offences arising out of my arrest in Balcombe on 19 August. One of the offences is for obstructing the highway. The other is for failing to comply with a police condition to move to a specified protest area.

    “I firmly believe in the right to peaceful protest and remain deeply concerned about the impact of fracking on climate change and the wider environment.

    “I have been advised by my lawyer to make no further comment at this stage.”

  153. I think I may have been accidentally unbanned.

    No, I don’t blame the moderator for making a mistake, because he didn’t like what I wrote….

    I have also been unbanned from websites in the USA….

    I think it is highly unlikely, because they have read what I have been writing on other websites…

    I think it’s far more likely that My ISP – or My Son Has changed My IP Address.

    So moderator – Look – This is My IP Address Now

    Add it to the file, like how I told you before.

    Glad Craig is Still Blogging….

    My Foot is a Lot Better Now

    Thank You,

    Tony

  154. My view on the subject of manmade climate change is extremely provocative and last time this subject came up, I was subjected to prolonged vicious abuse. I dared to say I was undecided one way or the other.

    To summerise my heresy: I have heard persuasive views from both sides of the debate and I can see strong motives for both sides to manipulate the data. My experience leads me to believe that either side, the energy lobby or the carbon-trading-de-facto-world-government, is quite capable of the required degree of media control. I don’t understand how anyone with an awareness of the power of the media can achieve certainty on this subject.

    To save the usual knee-jerk operatives some time, let me point out that I have said nothing to justify the label ‘climate denier’.

  155. So anyone with a different view about climate debate (the term man made global warming has been dropped now) that doesnt fit in with the world’s government funded scientists are “right-wing climate deniers”

    Spot on Chris. It is fucking pitiful to find; “man made climate change”, “man made climate threat”, “man made disasters”. Just who the fuck is this man, who is causing all this shit storm? Not me for fucking certain, it is the other wanker who is breathing, walking and eating! Just watch how he is wasting resources?

    The transactions on this thread are a conflation of bigotry, hate, and truthiness. Bits of facts, that have been built around yet another Ponzi scheme, have come to be taken as the gospel truth, and the only meaning of life to be found. Everyone is talking of science of climate, yet all of the said luminaries would be scratching their butts to make a head or tail of a fucking simple Fourier transform, or a simple Newton–Raphson analysis. Hey that is a mere detail; I am telling you the science of climate is proof it is changing!

    Never mind the wisdom of luminaries passing on their scientific know how. How is about tackling the changing climate?

    That is other than sterilising the Chinese, Indians, the Arabs, and any brown skinned sorts, and killing heir elderly.

    Q- How do you tackle the climate change?

    R- Well built more efficient engines of course. Yeah that ought to do it, if only the fuel tax escalator was notched a few pounds higher, the manufactures will be forced to change their cars, because no one can afford to buy the petrol!

    Q- Hows about making public transport, safe, ie no more thugs and drunkards picking on the passengers and beating them up, or stealing their belongings, and mugging them?

    Q- Hows about a public transport that is 24/7/52 us running on time and is routed through every neighbourhood, with suitable hubs to branch out to various destinations? That is intercity and local.

    Q- Hows about free public transport?

    R- No, come on now, what the fuck is this talk all about, fucking communism?

    Best increase the taxation on fuel, and the energy, also not forgetting to make sure that pedestrians walk miles more because the whole fucking road system has been designed for the vehicular transport, and then the said vehicular transport is slowed down to a crawl by lights, paintings on the roads, road bumps, road furniture and holes in the road due to the lack of maintenance , added sleeping policemen.

    Then make the town centres unfashionable/expensive/no parking zones and send all the shoppers out of town to buy their shopping.

    Man made fucking climate change, of course will not tolerate any notions of nuclear batteries that run for years. No way siry, the lead acid technology going back to fucking Mesopotamia ought to be sufficient for the next millennia.

    Throughout the debate, it is all about constraints on the man in the street and beating upon him more, and reminding him how worthless, and insignificant his guilty arse is? Sure fire winning solution, for years the religious lot have been threatening the sinners with hell fire and brimstones. these days it is “global warming”, WMD, and “what if”; taayyrrorists, paedophiles, evil doers, inefficient engines, hoards of immigrants, etc.

    There again I am a right wing zealot with a cuppa of tea and me rich tea biscuit, with my Muslim agenda bent on making everyone; to speak in tongues and shit. What do you know, even I may be an oil baron when I ma not advocating tea to become the mandatory drink for all?

    Fucking pitiful, 1984 on fucking steroids is here and how mate.

  156. @ tony0pmoc 27 Sep, 2013 – 7:23 pm

    Google this: site:http://www.craigmurray.org.uk tony0pmoc

    If you were ever banned, you haven’t been for the last 12 months.
    How’s your other foot?

  157. Since his friendship with Iran and Syria – Putin has become a pain in Zionists’ butts. They love to fabricate lies to dehumanize Putin as they did to Ahmadinejad and Hugo Chavez.

    In August 2013, British Jewish gay broadcaster, comedian and actor, Stephen Fry, had claimed that “Putin is doing to gays what Hitler did to Jews”.

    http://rehmat1.com/2013/08/11/putin-is-doing-to-gays-what-hitler-did-to-jews/

  158. @Tony – Maldives, the Israel occupied Muslim island got its freedom when mass protests booted out US-Israel favourite president Mohamed Nasheed last year.

    The diplomatic relations between Maldives and the Zionist entity were established in 1965 – but severed by the president Maumoon Abdul Gayoom in 1980 who after deposing Sultan Mohamed Farid I, declared the Island nation as a republic. The links were re-established on September 25, 2009 by the new president Mohamed Nasheed. Israeli military officials were reinvited to train Maldives’ security agencies. In 2010, Islamic group protested against the arrival of Israeli surgeons to work at the government run Indhra Gandhi hospital. They claimed Israeli doctors are notorious in organ harvesting for Israel.

    http://rehmat1.com/2012/02/10/maldives-pro-israel-president-booted-out/

  159. Another long-winded rant at 7.55pm, saying absolutely nothing.

    I’m going back to my book.

  160. These things need to be tested full on – at full Stress Test…

    Shit

    Craig Murray is Still Alive…

    What Can We Do Now??

    But Give Up???

    COURAGE LIVES ON

    Tony

  161. Incontrovertible proof:

    IPCC report: The financial markets are the only hope in the race to stop global warming

    The chairman of the IPCC warns that the only way to reduce large-scale fossil-fuel use is to ‘price’ carbon emissions
    The financial markets are humanity’s only hope in the battle against global warming, the world’s top climate expert declared today as he presented the most overwhelming case ever made that humans are responsible for rapidly increasing the Earth’s temperature.

    The same bunch of libor rigging, derivatives inventing, mortgage defrauding, banksters, are now the only buffer between humanity and the “Total annihilation” of our way of life.

    Pissing Myself Laughing at the experts prescription.

    Well all the proof is there, in the financial markets. Those fucking hucksters have ran out of selling fresh air, and now are trying to stop the fresh air from getting polluted.

  162. Fedup: Argument by belligerent profanity is a new one on me, we’ll have to see if it’s possible to get that included right up there along with logic, reason and empirical evidence.

    *

    It’s always astonishing to me that people are more than happy – demand, even – the products of science when it suits them for, say, keeping aeroplanes from unscheduled hard landings. Medical science from stopping many miserable deaths at an early age. Communication technology to allow TV, “Internets” etc., and producing just about everything that has taken us out of the jungle days.

    Yet when it comes to climate science, suddenly it’s all – in a quite unprecedented manner – become woolly, corrupt, subject to uninformed opinion and can be discounted.

    The main reason for this “skeptic” approach to the science of climate change, is because these skeptics are the paid shills of those with a vested interest in the status quo (albeit a temporary one), and useful idiots who find it much more agreeable to go along with the denial.

    What’s most alarming about the stupidity of climate change deniers, is that they really think a fossil-fuel based economy is going to last indefinitely! But then – thinking through a process is not much of a priority for these unscientific dupes who prefer mumbo-jumbo and wishful thinking to harsh reality.

  163. fossil-fuel based economy is going to last indefinitely!

    Stop your condescension and explain why fossil fuel will end?

    Is fossil fuel really from the fossils and residue of the dead organic matter?

    Which one of the moons of the Jupiter was inhabited by fucking dinosaurs, whose carcases have yielded the seas of methane?

    Stop your kind of “belief” and talk science, ie what about the Sun spots? What about the Sun storms? What about solar cycles? What about the spatial coordinate shifts of the solar system and the milky way galaxy? Is the Earth magnetic shield a constant? Does it change with the Earth’s fucking precession? a warm up for starters.

    On the other hand there is always Carbon trading that could help man made global warming to stop!!!!

    But Dr Pachauri warned that unless a price could be put on carbon emissions that was high enough to force power companies and manufacturers to reduce their fossil-fuel use, there seemed to be little chance of avoiding hugely damaging temperature increases.

    “An extremely effective instrument would be to put a price on carbon. It is only through the market that you can get a large enough and rapid enough response,” he said, calling on policymakers around the world “to see what’s required”.

    From the above link

  164. No, I think I can see what Fedup’s saying: once the pressure on governments etc re AGM reaches the tipping point, they will start trying to appear to combat it by basically charging more for energy; whether in prices or ‘carbon trading’, which will directly affect the poorest and the richest not at all, and make not one jot of difference to the situation. In fact this has already happened; it’s just that the debate is occasionally being framed as though it hasn’t. I think.

    Possible solutions which aren’t being explored by governments – like geothermal and anaerobic digestion – are interesting.

  165. Fedup: I get it at last! Fossil fuels (clue in the name there, btw) are infinite – going to last forever, and they cause no harm – because you don’t like the idea. Brilliant.

    Don’t wish to get all “sciency”, but all living things are carbon based. Some more complex than others. The presence of methane does not mean dinosaurs.

    What are Sun-spots? Jeez, we only know about them because of (gasp! Horror!) SCIENCE!! So clearly the very notion is suspect, and should be rightly ignored. “Spacial coordinate shifts”, magnetic fields, by gad – what the heck is that? These concepts would not arise from observation, data, hypotheses and …. well, the application of science would it? Because I know you’ve got no truck with such nonsense.

    Do you not see how silly it is to pick and choose where the scientific method should and should not apply, in the way you are doing?

    Spluttering away with profane indignation is hardly any real argument. But that seems to be what you’re all about.

  166. “About all I can tell you with confidence is that we are getting no more truth about Fukushima from the presstitute media than we are about any other subject.

    As I understand it, which I hope is incorrectly, Fukushima has the prospect, if the wrong events occur, of essentially eliminating Japan as a country.”

    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013/09/26/guest-column-fukushima-facts-takashi-hirose/

  167. Mary
    27 Sep, 2013 – 5:56 pm – Caroline Lucas link reposted thks Mary.

  168. Spluttering away with profane indignation is hardly any real argument. But that seems to be what you’re all about.

    Give me fucking strength!

    If you want to debate clean then there is always the Sunday School, until Craig turns this blog into a Sunday School, you best get on with the argument at hand.

    You have evaded the questions put to you by brushing them aside and proclaiming the high ground of “science” and then have informed us of the “infinity” supply of the “fossil fuel”/”rock oil” (why is it not?). Without answering how oil/methane/hydrocarbons actually occur without fossils ever existing on various other space bodies?

    Are you intending to carry on the parroted lines of the memes so assiduously sewn in place by the plutocrats and their minions or are you going to explain your position, without the fucking usual condescension and evasion?

    I put the same questions;

    what about the Sun spots? What about the Sun storms? What about solar cycles? What about the spatial coordinate shifts of the solar system and the milky way galaxy? Is the Earth magnetic shield a constant? Does it change with the Earth’s fucking precession? a warm up for starters.

  169. Oh, OK, I didn’t get what Fedup was saying…

  170. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Sep, 2013 - 10:56 pm

    I say, once the Human Race has departed this mortal coil, the resilient organism known as Earth will rebound with all due energy. Our remains will fuel the next wave of sentient life, or maybe the beneficial organisms who thrive in an unperturbed ecosystem will bypass our fossil remains.

  171. And to be honest Ben Franklin they deserve it more than us.

  172. What sort of argument would you like, Fedup? “Yoo cum ‘ere and fookin’ say that pal… I’ll noc yoo fookin’ teef out.”

    That sufficiently down-to-earth, and un-Sunday school like for you?

    It’s kind of hard to treat someone seriously, when their discourse is that of a half-witted delinquent teenager. No offence, of course.

  173. I say, once the Human Race has departed this mortal coil, the resilient organism known as Earth will rebound with all due energy. Our remains will fuel the next wave of sentient life, or maybe the beneficial organisms who thrive in an unperturbed ecosystem will bypass our fossil remains.

    Ben trouble is we are the aliens and have visited this planet and colonised it!

    The fact that all life was only created on Earth is just another one of those fucking stupid notions that keeps the morons happy! Why is there so much cover-up of the possibility that discounts any probability of other alien species?

    The vast universe, and the vast probabilities are mind boggling, at least for the limited wit of we the human beings. Despite the hatred on display towards our own species displayed by the other fellow human beings is telling of a species dysmorphic (this mental malady is so common place these days) ailment. Those who find the lack of other species from without our planet to be a crutch for their bigotry and prejudice.

    FFS we still don’t know about the life forms in our own oceans, and jungles, and deserts, but all too often know about the “man made disasters” because of a feeling in our water!

    Just read this thread, science is not about questioning and asking for proof, and testing and retesting. Science is what the Mr. scientists says!

    I am digressing, the global warming brouhaha is another scam hatched by the banksters for the banksters to control the rate of growth of the various competing economies. Evidently wars and mass murder are not cutting the mustard and we need the cooperation of the victim nations these days. Alas no longer few sputters of musketry are getting the natives to toe the line, and there is a need for a more sophisticated scam.

    PS. I am waiting to see who will be picking up the Voyager and the primitive phonograph disk and markings on the craft. They should be laughing their tits off at the effort, let us hop they are not the hostile kind of creatures, or we all have to assume the position; bend over kiss our ass goodbye!

  174. What sort of argument would you like, Fedup? “Yoo cum ‘ere and fookin’ say that pal… I’ll noc yoo fookin’ teef out.”

    The most sensible talk so far!

    Listen I put up with dimwits all day long and in my time I let rip, that is my prerogative and I like to fucking exercise it.

    Don’t fucking start; “the elaborate delivery mechanisms based on mandatory collaterals, to admire the succinct probabilities offered by the opportunity for discourse”.

  175. @ Glenn_uk/A Mode,

    I firmly believe in trying to understand our past/history. Not because it contains answers to all my questions, but it does tell me how this planet deals with catastrophic events/impacts, regardless whether they are/were man-made or not.

    Archeologists have shown me layers in the Earth’s soil that point at mind-blowing devastation, as in “These layers are devoid of a singular sign of blossoming life…’, yet here we are today, very much disagreeing on everything [not you and me] we possibly can disagree on.

    I had a pigeon English conversation with a Thai fisherman over a decade ago on a beach on an island, and it went like this [brushed up version]:

    “Say, old chap, isn’t that a tree stump out there?” [pointing at the remnants of it about a 100 yards offshore.]

    “Yes, it is. That was a palm tree, sir.”

    Utterly impressed I went on, “My goodness. What are the odds of a tree being able to grow all the way out there?”

    The man smiled. “It’s not that hard. That’s where the beach used to be 15 years ago.”

    As I said earlier, I do not take sides. I am not your friend and I am not your enemy. I am into facts, logic, sensible reasoning and truth finding/detection. I may have many character flaws and other moral shortcomings, but I hope that my thirst for honesty still stands unscathed amongst the ruins of what used to be the mind of an innocent child.

    To those of you who bring sledgehammers to a 4-men-hog-tossing competition: Oink!

    I’m not out here to lecture anyone. I’m out here to listen and exchange information [on a platform that allows many different voices to be heard]. For that, I am very, very thankful.

  176. glenn_uk (27 Sep, 2013 – 9:45 pm) mocks …..

    “It’s always astonishing to me that people are more than happy – demand, even – the products of science when it suits them for, say, keeping aeroplanes from unscheduled hard landings. Medical science from stopping many miserable deaths at an early age. Communication technology to allow TV, “Internets” etc., and producing just about everything that has taken us out of the jungle days.

    Yet when it comes to climate science, suddenly it’s all – in a quite unprecedented manner – become woolly, corrupt, subject to uninformed opinion and can be discounted.

    The main reason for this “skeptic” approach to the science of climate change, is because these skeptics are the paid shills of those with a vested interest in the status quo (albeit a temporary one), and useful idiots who find it much more agreeable to go along with the denial.

    What’s most alarming about the stupidity of climate change deniers, is that they really think a fossil-fuel based economy is going to last indefinitely! But then – thinking through a process is not much of a priority for these unscientific dupes who prefer mumbo-jumbo and wishful thinking to harsh reality.”

    …. or with insults removed …..

    “People who support manmade climate change are scientific.
    People who question manmade climate change are unscientific and can be discounted.”

  177. @ Someone,

    Q: “As I understand it, which I hope is incorrectly, Fukushima has the prospect, if the wrong events occur, of essentially eliminating Japan as a country.”

    R: I have to violently object against such unprecedented libel, because…

    Can someone get that TEPCO dude to STFU!

    To be honest with you, sometimes I cannot believe my eyes. I look out of my window, right now, and see a beautiful blue sky, it’s like 90 F. outside, Sakurajima huffs and puffs some more ash over our heads and roughly 700 miles to the NE, this monstrosity rears its ugly head. Fortunately, the Japanese government and the 6 major players that control all the news outlets have us look at the newly decorated room’s wallpaper. It’s a bit like back in the US, where a 6 ton Elephant is raping a 800lbs gorilla and ‘we’ have to applaud Piece Peace Prize Fighter Obombi, for ‘bringing peace to the ME [chuckle].

    Well, we all know what it feels like when mobs come rushing out to steer debates in their favorite direction [cough].

  178. Jeez, it’s all about conspiracies with you, eh fedup?


    Just read this thread, science is not about questioning and asking for proof, and testing and retesting. Science is what the Mr. scientists says!

    That – just the quote from you above – shows that you have zero understanding of the scientific method. Zero. None. Zilch.

    Science is not based on empty assertion – take a look at this for a short primer:

    The scientific method

    If there’s something there you’d like to argue with, let me know – I’d be happy to discuss. Seriously, very happy. We can use that as a basic for any other concerns you have about science and scientists – there is little point in discussing it otherwise.

  179. A Node: Which approach would you prefer, when it comes to (say) aircraft design & maintenance, for your particular journey? One which follows the scientific method, or that which scoffs at the entire notion of science (as with your climate change denying champions)? Try to be honest.

  180. That – just the quote from you above – shows that you have zero understanding of the scientific method. Zero. None. Zilch.

    Glen you have fucked about one too many times!

    Now go argue with yourself! I fucking care not one jot for your drivel.

    You are just scoring cheap points and frankly I have far more interesting preoccupations than getting into a tit for tat with a pratt. So fuck it Global is warming and skies are falling and you can hate everyone!

  181. Fedup: Fine. Yet another lazy halfwit cannot be bothered to try to even start learning how to understand a subject, before ranting and raving (not to mention – gosh! – swearing – how bold!) about it.

    I’ll try to live with the disappointment.

  182. glenn_uk 27 Sep, 2013 – 11:56 pm

    “A Node: Which approach would you prefer, when it comes to (say) aircraft design & maintenance, for your particular journey? One which follows the scientific method, or that which scoffs at the entire notion of science (as with your climate change denying champions)? Try to be honest.”

    I have no difficulty being honest.
    I would like my aircraft to be designed according to scientific method, but I would insist that the designer’s scientific credibility is not decided by a shouting contest. If there were competing theories on how best to design my plane, I would request that I am allowed to hear both sides explain their scientific reasoning. If I was given lots of information about one side of the arguement but found it difficult to hear about the other, I would be frustrated. If I was ridiculed for questioning this bias, I would be suspicious.

  183. Ben

    I fear that if we depart the Mortal Coil anytime soon(ish)

    Then we will be doing so by MANufactured Chemical, and atomic means, almost everything left that survives will be so altered, as to not be natural to the earth. Thank goodness the Oceans are deep

    Here’s that mega man of science

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8GA2w-qrcg

  184. @Glenn- “What’s most alarming about the stupidity of climate change deniers, is that they really think a fossil-fuel based economy is going to last indefinitely! But then – thinking through a process is not much of a priority for these unscientific dupes who prefer mumbo-jumbo and wishful thinking to harsh reality”

    I’d have to disagree with your premise on this one Glenn. What you’re portraying is a polarised and over simplified take. ‘Deniers’ is a bizarre choice of a word to describe someone who has a different viewpoint you don’t agree with. Also it is very odd to assume that people who don’t believe the man made global warming narrative somehow has to be an advoctae of fossil fuels and non renewable energies. It is possible to like green energy and not believe all the hype force fed to us for the last 20 years about man made global warming. Do you really believe what Al Gore, Blar,Cameron,Sorros, Maurice Strong and the bankers who are mostly behind this? Have you seen quotes such as the Club Of Rome’s that said that they decided to come up with global warming as a means to gain tighter control of the world and its resources?

    I have to add – Fedup’s occassional profanity is refreshing and strangely invigorating – Its well crafted profanity with a hint of class and an aroma of intelligent disdain. If it was a wine I would swirl it in my mouth and say I tasted a hint of blackberries, young appples, a dash of vanilla and ground pepper..

  185. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    28 Sep, 2013 - 1:27 am

    Brian; ‘The arrogance of ‘save the planet’

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rld0KDcan_w

  186. [Mod/Jon: Tony, your lengthy notes about your pub, the band, your family etc. are lovely, but this is not the place for it. Feel free to contribute to the topic, though!]

  187. BrianFujisan

    28 Sep, 2013 - 1:59 am

    Ben

    Carlin is Sharp

    Great points on geological timescales…

    more than enough time for there to be millions of years old ex civilizations, inside the Hymalya’s, or deeply buried in other tectonic movements,

    And on Galaxy wide timescales – The fermi Paradox, Where are they.

    Ben, cheers for the Escape From current human antics

  188. BrianFujisan

    28 Sep, 2013 - 2:05 am

    Tony

    You too, Great wee escapes, A legend dude, Stay safe

  189. Travelodge supply RT formerly Russia Today TV in the small basket of channels available to us tradesmen working away. Is one propaganda antidote to another, I ask myself, all publicity, good publicity. Buy Sarin. Rid unwanted neighbours from your area, can be used by government or opposition forces. Do they want to familiarise the UK public with the prospect of war?

    Russia’s grey leaden hand which crushed Muslim Grozny into ruins has now bulldozed Syria into Zombiedom. Tales of daring-do under the Arctic Ocean are better publicity for the New World Order than Ziombie destruction of a pluralistic Muslim country.

    The Kurdish are being deeply deceived that the US will allow the mujahideen a sedgment of Syria as a khalifah, and they are turning their attention to grabbing power in the East rather than fighting Assad. It was Political Islam that helped the British to dismantle the Ottoman khalifah. Are we to believe that the Zionist New World order is going to put it back again?

    Folly on folly. Stupidity on stupidity. Betrayal on betrayal of Muslims and Islam. Fedup. Forget about the Israeli ziofuckwits. The Muslim ziofuckwits Al Qaida, the Muslim Brotherhood and Shi’a Islam are doing their job for them, paid for by Saudi and Qatar, Cowardly and Sucker, in their air-conditioned cities, and by the blood of totally innocent human beings.

  190. A Node spake thusly:

    I have no difficulty being honest.
    I would like my aircraft to be designed according to scientific method, but I would insist that the designer’s scientific credibility is not decided by a shouting contest. If there were competing theories on how best to design my plane, I would request that I am allowed to hear both sides explain their scientific reasoning. If I was given lots of information about one side of the arguement but found it difficult to hear about the other, I would be frustrated. If I was ridiculed for questioning this bias, I would be suspicious.

    Oh come on. Planes have been designed thousands of different ways – they are not just bigger or smaller versions of each other. You have not studied a single one of the thousands of types in service. Just like you’ve never studied the trains, types of track, every last bit of the road-car – the composition of the tyres, the compound of rubber used in the brake hoses – or everything that you use and depend your life upon on a daily basis.

    “If there were competing theories in how best to design my plane”, indeed. There are more competing theories than you could shake a stick at. You might well be blissfully unaware of them, granted!

    This is the heart of the libertarian “Self Made Man” BS. That you’re Davey Crockett, and made every last thing for yourself. You didn’t. Everything you need to live with has a dependency on things being done, tested, working properly in a controlled manner – and that happens to be the scientific manner, because everything else tends to cost a lot of lives. Even – nearly all the time – when you’re totally unaware of that fact. Even (sigh) when you scoff at the very concept.

    Question it – sure! Please, please do so – that’s what the entire principle of science relies on! But for God’s sake, don’t denounce it on the basis of total ignorance, which is the approach “skeptics” bask in when it comes to climate change denial.

  191. @Chris Jones: With every respect, it’s not a matter of “belief”. That very notion betrays a huge misunderstanding in the way a scientific approach arrives at the most probable explanation of observable phenomenon.

    No understanding that science arrives at is determined by a belief system – it can only advance that explanation that currently meets all known facts.

    No, I have not heard that this entire notion of GCC was cooked up in the Club Of Rome. It would be most remarkable if you could provide actual evidence that it was. But even if some despicable cadre of banksters, politicians, Illuminati etc. did cook it up, the truly amazing thing would be that their theory stood the barrage of scientific testing for the last few decades!

    You’re an intelligent person, Chris. How can you believe that this is all cooked up, just because some groups have seen an angle to make money off it? Don’t you recognise that _even more_ money is to be made by the “business as usual” crowd – they’re currently cashing in as never before!

    There’s money to be made on the principle of the internal combustion engine. Heck, a very large part of the economy generated over the past number of decades is based on it. One might say vast fortunes, even the whole financial system turns on it and the oil that fuels it.

    Therefore, the internal combustion engine is a hoax that simply needs to be exposed. Maybe you, Fedup et al can fill in the gaps for that argument – it has far more weight than your GCC money-grubbing expose, after all.

    *

    Sure, Fedup’s blow-out profanity “fuck-fests” are just wonderful – if only the rest of us could liberate ourselves thus.

  192. Glenn_uk, you have been very patient and very effective in defending scientific reasoning. Fedup is quite funny, … but not ‘haha’ funny. I suspect his anger is sourced from his frustration at trying to understand a complex concept and trying to reconcile it with his emotional needs – thereby resulting in internal conflict that has no prospects of an emotionally agreeable solution.

    On the matter of scientists and GCC, scientists are people too and some are prone to the same errors as non-scientists. There are those who misspeak, those who seek attention, wealth, glory – but they do not represent other scientists although the public bunch them all together as if they belong to a political party. Scientists often disagree with each other. Not just in their work but also in their conduct and personalities. It is wrong to confuse scientists (the people) with science (the body of human knowledge and the processes that produce it) – that would be like confusing musicians with music.

    The single most problematic issue of GCC is prediction and the mistake of *some* scientists in making hard predictions of an immensely complex system without regard to the consequences of getting their predictions wrong. The public, stirred up by a cynical media, is very arrogantly unforgiving of scientists who make failed predictions. A good example is the criminal convictions of scientists in Italy for failing to predict the severity of a subsequent earthquake – which takes us back to the good-old-bad-old days of witch trials.

    I appreciate how many people do not understand the argument for man-made GCC. None of us can completely understand all the scientific details without becoming climate scientists in the process. But we don’t need to understand everything to validate our confidence in the theory. 

    Some details should, however, be understood to get a grip on the essential issues. Like the size of the biosphere which is vastly smaller than what popular images of the earth imply. And of overlapping cycles of natural effects that produce irregular net fluxes in different parts of the globe. Or the idea that massive amounts of carbon, released from geological stores, needs to go somewhere in the biosphere with a measurable impact on climate systems. And, of course, the idea that plants like CO2 and will absorb excess amounts in a world that has been rapidly deforesting over the last 100 years.

    It’s amazing how people scorn science as if there were any alternative to it.

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