Putin and International Law

by craig on March 2, 2014 1:22 pm in Uncategorized

By sending troops into the Ukraine, (others than those stationed there by agreement) Putin has broken international law.  That does not depend on the Budapest Memorandum.  It would be a breach of international law whether the Budapest Memorandum existed or not.  The effect of the Budapest Memorandum is rather to oblige the US and the UK to do something about it.

The existence of civil disturbance in a country does not justify outside military intervention.  That it does is, of course, the Blair doctrine that I have been campaigning against for 15 years, inside and outside government.  Putin of course opposes such interventions by the West, in Iraq, Syria or Libya, but supports such interventions when he does them, as in Georgia and Ukraine.  That is hypocrisy.  There are elements on the British left who also oppose such interventions when the West does them, but support when Putin does them.  You can see their arguments on the last comments thread: fascinatingly none of them have addressed my point about Putin’s distinct lack of interest in the principle of self-determination when it comes to Chechnya or Dagestan.

The overwhelming need now is to de-escalate the crisis.  People rushing about in tanks and helicopters very often leads to violence, and here Putin is at fault.  There was no imminent physical threat to Russians in the Crimea, and there is no need for all this military activity.  Ukraine should file a case against Russia at the International Court of Justice; the UK and US, as guarantor states, can ask to be attached as guarantor states with an interest in the Budapest Memorandum .  That will fulfil their guarantor obligations without moving a soldier.

The West is not going to provide the kind of massive financial package needed to rescue the Ukraine’s moribund economy and relieve its debts.  It would be great if it did, but with western economies struggling, no western politician is in a position to announce many billions in aid to the Ukraine.  The chances of Ukraine escaping from Russian political and economic domination in the near future are non-existent – the Ukrainians are tied by debt.  That was the hard reality that scuppered the EU/Ukraine agreement.  That hard reality still exists.  The Association Agreement is a very long path to EU membership.

Both Putin and the West are reacting to events which unfolded within Ukraine.  Action by the West was not a significant factor in the toppling by Yanukovich – that was a nationalist reaction to an abrupt change of political direction which seemed to be moving Ukraine decisively into the Russian orbit.  Ukrainians are not stupid and they can see the standard of living in former Soviet Bloc countries which have joined the European Union is now much higher .  Anybody who denies that is deluded.  Of course western governments had programmes to encourage pro-western tendencies in Ukraine, including secret operations. It would be naïve to expect otherwise.  Anybody who thinks Russia was not doing exactly the same is deluded.  But it is a huge mistake to lay too much weight on these efforts – both the West and Russia were taken aback by the strength and speed of the political convulsions in Ukraine, and everybody is still paying catch-up.

Which is why we now need a period of calm, and an end to dangerous military adventurism – which undeniably is coming primarily from Russia.  Political dialogue needs to be resumed.  It is interesting that even the pro-Russian assembly of Crimea region has only called a referendum on more devolved powers, not on union with Russia or independence.  However I still maintain the best way forward is agreement on internationally supervised referenda to settle the position.  The principle of self-determination should be the most important one here.  If any of the regions of Ukraine wish to secede, the goal should be a peaceful and orderly transition.  Effective military annexation by Putin, and insistence by the West that national boundaries cannot be changed, are both unproductive stances.

 

 

 

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248 Comments

  1. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 1:40 pm

    Any referenda in the Crimea under current conditions would be a farce and a forgone conclusion – it would have to be conditional on Russian withdrawal. It would also be extremely important that guarantees would need to be given for the protection of the human rights of minorities after any election, and in particular the Tartars, so as to avoid yet another bout of ethnic cleansing. Let us not forget that Russia happily backed Serbia in the previous European episode. There also has top be some cost/penalty to Putin if only to stop a repeat performance and to discourager les autres. I am very concerned as to how Putin is likely to use this nationalist flag waving as a pretext for cracking down on his own dissidents.

    In passing, I might also note that Craig’s principle “that the existence of civil disturbance in a country does not justify outside military intervention” is not something that his hero J S Mill would have subscribed to as an absolute principle, and indeed wrote a paper setting our circumstances when it should be overridden (although some of those were a little bit on the racist side).

  2. Craig, this may be purely pro-Russian propaganda, I found it removed from Wikipedia without a supporting source, but if true, would it affect the legal position regarding Russia’s troops in Crimea?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances&diff=597757436&oldid=597756378

    The Russian population in Southern and Eastern Ukraine (who, for example, form over 60 percent of the population of Crimea) had voted for president Yanukovych and his government and strongly felt that their democratic rights have been violated by those who overthrew this government. They felt entitled to apply the same, although much more peaceful, measures to appoint their own government in Crimea. Following the threats from the new government in Kiev, Sergei Aksyonov, the new Prime Minister of Crimea, asked Russia for military assistance in protecting the security of the Russian population in Southern and Eastern Ukrain

  3. Craig, I’m also worried about this, armed action in Russia itself. Of course, it could be a fake news report, “seeded” by Russian authorities; there’s no way for me to tell. Reposted from previous thread:
    ———
    Comments are closed on this article, which I find worrying. That’s the whole article pasted below; nothing more.

    http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/03/02/ukraine-crisis-road-idINL6N0LZ03820140302

    (Reuters) – The governor of Russia’s Belgorod region said on Sunday armed groups had tried to cut off a road leading to Ukraine, Interfax news agency reported.

    “Armed men are roaming the area … There was an attempt to close off the road from Moscow to Crimea,” Yevgeny Savchenko was quoted as saying about events on Saturday. “This is really troubling.”

    I agree, Russia should be negotiating, but Russia seems highly panicked by developments in the region. Maybe they feel that matters are being taken out of their hands.

  4. Craig

    It’s unfortunate that you feel the need to compare Russian intervention in the Crimea and Georgia with the West’s actions in Iraq, Syria and Libya.

    How are these even remotely similar?

    And, what does international law have to say about organising coups in other countries?

  5. Linking the Ukraine mess with the Syria mess is inevitable, but not in the sense the Western media and the dreaded Hague propose. Putin and by association the Ukraine people are both being punished for Putin obstructing the attack on Syria by the USA and its chums. It was only a matter of time for the knock on the door with retribution.

    The timing is the key to explaining such events. I imagine the US and their sponsors in the ongoing ousting of Assad the Saudis considered some kind of other disruptive activities during the Olympics but we can at least be happy they waited till after the Sochi Olympics. Whatever the retribution, it had to happen sooner or later to slap Putin on the wrist and to keep him busy on his borders, and to enable the ongoing Saudi/US mission to thwack Assad in Syria.

    Double whammy. The people to feel saddest for are the populations of Ukraine and Syria while the US and Saudis play their “House of Cards” dirty games.

  6. The Ukrainian government was, is and will be gangsters. As is the Russian. The US. UK, EU. And the Scot pretender. Self serving elitist killing machines everyone of em.

    Down with all governments. They can’t be trusted you know.

  7. Thanks Craig.

    I have looked up nationalist.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism

    Egalitarian. We are not all equal as some are less fortunate and thus deserve more.

  8. Dave Lawton

    2 Mar, 2014 - 2:16 pm

    Craig ,with regards to international law the US is a well known culprit yet there does not
    seem to be the same fuss made when they break it. Remember Grenada as one example.

  9. Saakashvili was a neocon puppet; Prince Bandar told us Saudi was in charge of Caucasus Islamists; and “we” have been pouring money into the Ukrainian opposition for years in preparation for just such regime change. I’m not defending Yanukovich of Putin, but the West has made a policy out of degrading Russia’s sphere of influence; “we” have enforced ours with Tomahawks and shock and awe.

    Kerry saying Russia is behaving “in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped-up pretext”.

    The hypocrisy is breath-taking. When you rip up the rule book don’t be surprised when other countries with their own agendas follow your lead.

  10. “Action by the West was not a significant factor in the toppling by Yanukovich – that was a nationalist reaction to an abrupt change of political direction which seemed to be moving Ukraine decisively into the Russian orbit.”

    Sigh…. I find that infinitely depressing coming from someone who is looked to for guidance by confused people who distrust their own government; I really do. Tell me you don’t REALLY believe – Pleeeeze. Otherwise can I ask you to have a ponder about this – second thoughts its good for a bit of a rueful chuckle anyway.

  11. Dave Lawton

    The US is indeed a serial offender in breaking international law, but I am not sure there is little fuss about it!

  12. Clark,

    No, under no circumstances could a pronouncement of the regional government of Ukraine affect the legal position by inviting in Russian troops

  13. As somebody on Medialens says, there were no problems about Hollande invading Mali and later the Central African Republic, or questions raised.

    There are other threads there about Greenwald and Omidyar and one about Craig’s take on Ukraine.

  14. Michel Chossudovsky knows the score, and is very well informed.

    Scary stuff.

    Ukraine and the “Politics of Anti-Semitism”: The West Upholds Neo-Nazi Repression of Ukraine’s Jewish Community
    By Prof Michel Chossudovsky
    Global Research, February 26, 2014

    Region: Europe, Russia and FSU

    Theme: Politics and Religion

    The US and the EU are supporting the formation of a coalition government integrated by Neo-Nazis which are directly involved in the repression of the Ukrainian Jewish community.

    There are about 200,000 Jews living in Ukraine, most of them in Kiev. This community is described as “one of the most vibrant Jewish communities in the world, with dozens of active Jewish organizations and institutions”. A significant part of this community is made up of family members of holocaust survivors. “Three million Ukrainians were murdered by the Nazis during their occupation of Ukraine, including 900,000 Jews.” (indybay.org, January 29, 2014).

    Ukrainian Jews were the target of the Third Reich’s Einsatzgruppen (Task Groups or Deployment Groups) which were supported by Ukrainian Nazi collaborators (Wikipedia). These “task forces” were paramilitary death squads deployed in occupied territories.

    Graphic
    Source: Dennis Nilsson wikimedia.org

    Contemporary Neo-Nazi Threat against Ukraine’s Jewish community

    While the Western media has not covered the issue, the contemporary Neo-Nazi threat against the Jewish community in the Ukraine is real. Ukrainian Neo-Nazis pay tribute to Stepan Bandera, a World War II-era Nazi collaborator who led the pro-Nazi Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN-B). The contemporary Neo-Nazi Svoboda Party which is supported by Washington follows in the footsteps of the OUN-B.

    /..

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-and-the-politics-of-anti-semitism-west-upholds-neo-nazi-repression-of-ukraines-jewish-community/5370790

  15. It is somewhat irrelevant that things got out of control of West hands. What is relevant is that it that the west was supporting the revolution. From that perspective, the Russian reaction was completely predictable.

  16. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 2:54 pm

    I am waiting for someone to inform us that the Soviet liberators were invited into Prague in 1968, Hungary in 1956 in order to squash the counter revolutionary forces of fascism and imperialism. I’m sure it will be somewhere in the deleted pages of Wikipedia.

  17. Indeed Mary. Complete silence from MSM on the fact that neo-Nazis are now in government in Ukraine. And you’re spot on, TonyF12. All this kicked off just as the Olympics were ending. Perhaps the Bandar threat was a feint; the real action was the NGOs mobilising their people.

    Yanukovich may have been a corrupt apparatchik, but this was a coup, with added brownshirt muscle.

    Seventy per cent of German casualties during WW2 were on the Eastenr front. The Soviet Union beat the Nazis, and Russia doesn’t want them on its doorstep again.

  18. Craig,

    if the ouster of Yanukovych was achieved by illegal means, then the Ukraine which should do this or that according to you, would be the Yanukovych Govt’s Ukraine. simple as that.

    the Associated Press had this excerpt squeezed into an otherwise anti-Putin/pro-protesters article. yet it is the most important aspect of this entire sorry episode.

    AP: Ukraine’s Parliament Boss Takes Presidential Powers
    The legitimacy of the parliament’s flurry of decisions in recent days is under question. The votes are based on a decision Friday to return to a 10-year-old constitution that grants parliament greater powers. Yanukovych has not signed that decision into law, and he said Saturday that the parliament is now acting illegally.
    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/ukraines-parliament-boss-takes-presidential-powers/495066.html

    all else follows from one’s interpretation of that vote. whether Russia/Putin is right or wrong doesn’t come into it.

    those who take the view that the vote was probably illegal, including myself, MAY or MAY NOT consider ignoring territorial integrity/international law is just as bad (or good) when done by Russia/Putin doing it, as it is when done by Bush/Blair/Obama/Cameron/Israel/Qatar/Australia etc.

    i simply believe that it is THIS legal question about the ouster which should be debated right now, and it isn’t & won’t be – not in the MSM anyway. your legal questions, on the other hand, will be in the MSM, indeed are all over the MSM. i’m not prepared to move on. i would like to see this question resolved.

    you say:

    “Action by the West was not a significant factor in the toppling by Yanukovich” – you don’t know that. it is an opinion.

    as for being deluded if one imagines Russia wasn’t also interfering –

    one: who imagines that?
    two: interference from a deeply-connected neigbouring country does seem less reprehensible than interference from major powers thousands of miles away somehow.

    u say: “Ukrainians are not stupid and they can see the standard of living in former Soviet Bloc countries which have joined the European Union is now much higher” here’s another opinion:

    The Crisis In Ukraine
    By Paul Craig Roberts
    In 2004, Hungary joined the EU, expecting streets of gold. Instead, four years later in 2008 Hungary became indebted to the IMF. The rock video by the Hungarian group, Mouksa Underground sums up the result in Hungary today of falling into the hands of the EU and IMF…
    http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Crisis-In-Ukraine-by-Paul-Craig-Roberts-Crisis_Neocons_Russia_Ukraine-140225-898.html

    EU hasn’t turned out great in Italy with yet another unelected Govt – BBC did benignly say the guy would have been elected if they had elections, so i guess that’s democratic enough!

    all are opinions, so no need to tag people who have a different opinion as “deluded” or pro-Russian.

  19. International law has been severely weakened by the USUKIS alliance and others. The pungent hypocrisy by this ‘exceptional’ band of deceivers is indeed significant.

    Britain and the US has thrown its weight around the international scene for so long without repercussions that it may have forgotten that there are nations in the world that possess capabilities that are not subservient to U.S. interests.

    Mon Dieu! The EU voted on a resolution that condemned the U.S. drone program as a “violation of international law,” ignored UNSC resolutions on Israel’s land theft succinct examples of blatant mockery laws circumvented by deceit.

    The US maintained the ‘Monroe Doctrine’ [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine], protecting its sphere of influence in Latin America, for almost 200 years.

    A step change in awareness occurred in me when I witnessed our own SAS dressed as Arabs planting explosives in Iraq.

    The insipid deception by the West must stop now peeps regardless of International law. Moral authority rules and British and American exceptionalism based on democratic ideals and personal liberty is an illusion, an empty fairy story whose only purpose is to control our lives and the lives of others passionate for peace without the arsenal of mass destruction weapons that give santuary, shield and preserve lives in an increasingly sentient world.

  20. “Seventy per cent of German casualties during WW2 were on the Eastenr front. The Soviet Union beat the Nazis, and Russia doesn’t want them on its doorstep again.”

    Actually, the Soviet Union brought the Nazis to its doorstep by signing the Nazi-Soviet Pact and carving up Poland between each other. Stalin was mortified and disbelieving when Hitler, of all people, betrayed him.

  21. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 3:08 pm

    “Seventy per cent of German casualties during WW2 were on the Eastenr front. The Soviet Union beat the Nazis, and Russia doesn’t want them on its doorstep again.”

    They are inside the house already – just Google “Far right” and “Russia” and Putin doesn’t seem too concerned about his own fascists he even allowed his favourite Zhironovsky to visit occupied Crimea. The Russians deserve so much better.

  22. Absolutely, Mark. I remember those SAS guys who were grabbed from jail in Basra after being found with a car-boot full of bombs. Nothing like inciting some inter-ethnic strife to justify a “protection” force.

    They were part of the Special Reconnaisance Regiment, set up by Geoff Hoon and commanded by one Brigadier John Gordon Kerr. Check him out with regard to Northern Ireland. He was up to the same dirty tricks there.

  23. RD, Putin obviously prefers Russian nationalists to German ones. Neither are very pleasant.

  24. The following is just one of my FB friend’s comments but thought I’d pass it on for what worth as perhaps you have some insights on the issue of implications of Chernobyl:

    Because of the need for a Sarcophagus to contain the radiation from the nuclear meltdown at the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant in Ukraine, Putin should worry that the Fascists in Kiev could exploit this facility to make dirty radioactive bombs. The Russians should send an airborne combat unit to ensure that the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant is secure. The ultra-right “Svoboda” (Liberty) party has stated through one of its” representatives in the Ukrainian parliament that if Russia doesn’t tread carefully it will be dealing with a nuclear power” as a warning to Russia. In addition, one of Ukraine nationalist leaders called for terrorists to act against Russia. Chernobyl would provide the terrorists with enough radioactive materials to make a dirty bomb for use against Russia. Someone in Russia should take this into consideration.

    “A leader of the Ukrainian radical group Pravy Sektor (Right Sector), Dmitry Yarosh, has called on Russia’s most wanted terrorist Doku Umarov to act against Russia in an address posted on Right Sector’s page in VKontakte social network.”

    “Ukraine nationalist leader calls on ‘most wanted’ terrorist Umarov ‘to act against Russia’” http://rt.com/news/yarosh-nationalist-address-umarov-380/

  25. Correction. The emergency NATO meeting took place today.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26404584

    ‘”And so, in addition to calling yesterday’s emergency meeting of the UN Security Council, the United Kingdom will join other G8 countries this week in suspending our co-operation under the G8, which Russia chairs this year, including the meetings this week for the preparation of the G8 summit.”

    He said Britain would keep its approach to further G8 meetings under review.

    In Brussels, Nato has been holding emergency talks about Russia’s move to take control of Crimea.’

    That will shake Putin to the core. Not.

    Wait for the markets to open tomorrow. Oil and gas prices particularly.

  26. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 3:40 pm

    Craig

    You’ve now posted on several topics with eminent moderation and common sense, and your latest is no exception; I would disagree with nothing you say.

    Just one question which might improve the context you’ve set out even further: you write

    “…the Ukrainians are tied by debt.”

    Can you – or anyone else – give a breakdown of the current Ukrainian debt, please?

  27. Oh. Here you are habby. Both yourself and Angrysoba have been avoiding these questions even though you both are trumpeting the role of parliament in the removal of the president.

    1. Were members threatened with or in fear of violence?

    2. Were all members who wished to vote in attendance.

    3. Was the president ousted lawfully and in accordance with the constitution?

  28. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 3:48 pm

    Herbie

    “And, what does international law have to say about organising coups in other countries?”
    ________________________

    This comment is seriously flawed (assuming it is meant to be serious):

    1/. Firstly, it assumes that the change of government was organised from outside, so you would have to justify that assertion before asking the question;

    2/. rather than asking others to say what international law says, you should yourself tell us, since you obviously believe that it has been broken.

    Thank you.

  29. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 3:57 pm

    [Personal arguments will be deleted]

  30. You are deflecting the the issue. I didn’t know you were a neo-nazi sympathizer until now.

    Why has neo nazi government taken over?

  31. Mike wrote

    “RD, Putin obviously prefers Russian nationalists to German ones. Neither are very pleasant.”

    yes Mike, nor are they anywhere else, just to finsih your list, rightwing fascists are big in France, Belgium,Italy, Greece and the US, not to speak of the fascists in Juapan and or Australia, now a global movement.

    can someone please tell us what Sasha Billy was saying to the public prosecutor? or do I have to ask a more discerning crowd somewhere else?
    somebody should get the guist of what he was on about throttling the young chap up by his tie.

  32. Since eastern Ukraine’s population exceeds western Ukraine, what would be result in election, especially now there is a neo-nazi government in Ukraine?

  33. Habby

    Didn’t Nuland’s conversation with her ambassador indicate that she was pulling strings in terms of which fascist got what job?

    Surely you aren’t suggesting that the US and its allies don’t organise coups in other countries, are you?

    And then there’s those questions above.

    Thanks

  34. fascists are scum, wherever they operate!

  35. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 4:06 pm

    Herbie

    “Oh. Here you are habby.”
    __________________

    Yes indeed, Herbie. Since you’re the one making the accusations, please answer the questions I asked a short while ago on another thread, and in particular:

    1/. What is the total membership of the Rada?

    2/. How many members took part in the vote?

    3/. What were the voting figures?

    ***********

    It is really time you learnt something of you wish your comments to be taken seriously and seen as being made in good faith: it is flawed on your part to make a claim (or insinuation) and then, when someone contests what you say, ask that person to prove what HE says. You’ve got it the wrong way round : when YOU make a claim (or insinuation), it is for YOU to back it up – with facts.

    Thank you.

  36. “The West is not going to provide the kind of massive financial package needed to rescue the Ukraine’s moribund economy and relieve its debts. It would be great if it did,…”

    Why would it be great if it did? The West has many more trillions of minus zeros, or should that be tr0lli0ns, than Russia. The Russian fleet may be ancient, but it is owned, not borrowed from the bank. The poorest peasant on earth has more money at zero than the average westerner who owes an average 200,000 pounds.

    I am reminded by Craig’s pro EU future for the Ukraine of the Jash/ baby donkeys who first took UK money to cause problems for Saddam Hussain. They were told, like Qaida today in Syria, that they were making jihad for Allah and Islam. Turns out they were shoe-horning western oil companies into access to the black gold under the River Euphrates.

    Those Jash/ milk-baby donkeys got paid for their services and later tortured almost to death by UK controlled agents in Iraq.
    When agents of the West call for an uprising in a former Soviet bloc country they should remember who they are dealing with, viz scum.

    Just because, at the expense of UK wages, certain eastern bloc European countries have multiplied their finances many hundreds of times, does not mean that those countries are not going to be put on the rack at some time to teach them a lesson about getting above their station.

    It took nearly 100 years from 1918 when Churchill asked for Mosul and Palestine from the spoils of the Ottoman Empire to the exploitation by UK related global companies to get their hands on the assets as planned. Kurdistan was ravaged by war and Palestine continues to be ravaged.

    Sweet, sweet poison. You too could be like Poland. You could alternatively get raped like Palestine. White man speak with fork tongue.

  37. Press the Meat has Kerry on…..discussing the Syrian connection……..supports the rebels, blah, blah, but of course The Black Sea, NATO isn’t broached. What a surprise the moderator just wants to trap him into a rhetorical cul-de-sac…….nothing with any depth. Typical.

  38. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 4:11 pm

    Herbie

    “Didn’t Nuland’s conversation with her ambassador indicate that she was pulling strings in terms of which fascist got what job?”
    _______

    No. But feel free to give verbatim text.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “Surely you aren’t suggesting that the US and its allies don’t organise coups in other countries, are you?”
    ___________________

    Red herring. What I was suggesting was that you should attempt to back up your assertions. And I ask you to do so again (my post at 16h06 above).
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Thank you, Herbie

  39. habby

    I haven’t made any claim about the legitimacy of the Ukrainian parliamentary decision.

    But, both yourself and Angrysoba have claimed it as legitimate.

    So, can you please answer the questions put to you:

    1. Were members threatened with or in fear of violence?

    2. Were all members who wished to vote in attendance.

    3. Was the president ousted lawfully and in accordance with the constitution?

    Since the issue of parliamentary legitimacy forms a central tenet of your position I think any failure to answer these simple questions ought to be viewed rather negatively in terms of your position.

    Thanks

  40. Good post Craig, especially the last paragraph. Just one quibble-

    ‘Ukraine should file a case against Russia at the International Court of Justice; the UK and US, as guarantor states, can ask to be attached as guarantor states with an interest in the Budapest Memorandum.’

    The UK and US would certainly gain some respect for upholding international law on this occasion; however, it is unlikely to cut any ice on the ground- the same International Court ruled a decade ago that the Turkish invasion of northern Cyprus in 1974 was illegal. After nearly 40 years, the Turks are still there.

  41. Nuland: 3 x videos with the verbatim text; including her confirmation that the US has spent $5 billion to secure its objectives (of freedom and democracy naturally) in the Ukraine. And the last one – nervous young US Dept of State spokes-lady, Jan Paski, earnestly assuring us that black is white.

  42. INTERNATIONAL LAW !!!!!!! (Goose? Gander?)

    Obama gives lectures on the concept of sovereignty? Look at the list of countries in which we’ve interfered: Iran, Guatemala, Haiti, Indonesia, Cuba, Nicaragua, Chile, Argentina, the Philippines, Afghanstan —

    Who complained when Boris Yeltsin — a drunken American toady with single-digit approval ratings — bolstered his popularity by launching a brutal war in Chechnya?. In fact, Bill Clinton compared Yeltsin to — – Abraham Lincoln.

    There are so many axes to grind, so little time.

  43. ‘Can you – or anyone else – give a breakdown of the current Ukrainian debt, please?’

    A quarter of Ukrainian debt is in short term bonds, and must be settled by next summer. The probability of a Ukrainian default is higher than that of any other country, save Argentina.

    http://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2014/02/23/ukraine-four-reasons-why-its-going-to-end-in-tears/

  44. Oh dear. It’s not going well.

    “Ukrainian armed forces dispatched to Crimea have switched to the side of local authorities and are expected to take military oath soon, Russian news agencies report.”

    http://rt.com/news/ukraine-military-russia-resign-437/

  45. It is, of course, perfectly reasonable for British people to object against the UK sending troops into a country but don’t give a damn when Putin does – and that is that they are citizens of the UK and have a responsibility for what the UK government does.

    Keeping one’s own house in order, so to say, but dopn’t meddle with the neighbour’s.

    There is also another, quite reasonable cause for not meddling with what the Russians do, and that is htat it may be a waste of energy. It is easier, and may even pay off, to put pressure on one’s own government, but what you say about the Russians would probably not have any results at all.

    Except, and that is the third reason, that it sounds a great deal hypocritic for Britons to teach lessons to other countries on this matter.

  46. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 4:31 pm

    Herbie

    “I haven’t made any claim about the legitimacy of the Ukrainian parliamentary decision.”

    Please refer to your post at 14h51 on the previous thread.

    “But, both yourself and Angrysoba have claimed it as legitimate.”

    Which post of mine was that, Herbie? But I have asked you for the attendance and voting figures in the Rada – when are you going to provide them, to back up your assertions? Please stop clowning about and get serious.

  47. To tyhe subject of arrests and protests within Russia we must realise that if such demonstartions would happen here and at the same scale, our police would soon call in the armed forces to stiffle it.

    http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/liveticker-zur-krim-krise-am-2-maerz-2014-a-956418.html

    This from der Spiegels ‘timeline’home page with pictures from Moscow, St petersburg and various links. Sorry its in German, can’t translate everything, you have to refresh your German, however hard it is when one is learning Mandarin.

    16:12 Ukraine’s War fleet of ten shiops have declared themselves loyal to Kiev. So what was that other story all about a ship wanting to take Russian orders?

    Some 10.000 pro Putin demonstrations in Moscow with 350 arrested for demonstrating against his aggression.

    What, apart from fanning the situation with twitter com ments and shaking hands with the currewnt administration, are western countries doing to mitigate the tensions?

    Who is going to Moscow and Kiev, when does the security council sit on this issue?

  48. Its not that we did not know about it going to happen, we were worried in 2006, according to these Wikileaks cables dug up by slate.com

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/03/01/the_wikileaks_cables_that_anticipated_the_russian_invasion_of_crimea.html

  49. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 4:37 pm

    Old Mark

    “‘Can you – or anyone else – give a breakdown of the current Ukrainian debt, please?’

    A quarter of Ukrainian debt is in short term bonds, and must be settled by next summer. The probability of a Ukrainian default is higher than that of any other country, save Argentina.”
    _____________________

    Thank you for that beginning, Old Mark. To get a clearer picture :

    1/. The other three quarters of the debt – in which form is it, and owned to whom?

    2/. The quarter in short term bonds – to whom is it owned?

    Thank you.

  50. Habby

    I won’t waste further time with you. You’re clearly up to your old diversionary tricks again.

    I merely note that both your and Angrysoba’s claim for the legitimacy of the vote remains unsubstantiated due to your repeated refusal to answer some simple questions on it.

  51. [Personal arguments will be deleted]

  52. Craig.
    You call against escalation and want things to follow through both slowly and politically. Why then your surprise when Crimea is doing just that and not leaping ahead and declaring independence and what not. Fair to presume you applaud their approach?

    I agree with you it looks like the Russians are ever more guilty of the same dirty illegalities the west has become notorious for. Kerry’s words on this stank beyond belief.

  53. There is a broader point too.
    If the elected officials of Ukraine decided to align much more towards Russia, what right does anyone have to stop that? Also, Ukraine should NOT file a case against Russia at the International Court of Justice – because the people in charge are NOT elected but planted puppets with no moral or legitimate authority other than that of the cudgel their wield.

    p.s. Yes, the ‘distinct lack of interest’ at Putin in terms of self-determination when it comes to Chechnya or Dagestan by the western left(i.e watered down) wing of NeoLiberaism shows them for the charlatans that they are.

  54. Kerry has more carrots on his hat than corks on crocodile dundees.
    One of the carrots is the one Craig is dangling to keep the Russians pushing in the scrum of Syria in an effort to wreck Syria completely`- the carrot of Eastern Uzbekistan and the Crimea for Russia.

    Then there’s the carrots of autonomy for Chechnyans, Eastern Turkey for Kurdistan, and a Sunni block of Syria for Al Qaida. And The rest of Syria on its knees for Israel with a UN resolution to appoint Israel as curator of that land ad in finitum.

    Craig is using his good reputation for many good deeds to prepare us for the coming carve-up of land, which will be followed by 40 years of carve-ups throughout the former Soviet stans. For obvious reasons Craig would like for instance Uzbekistan to come into a peaceful, brokered, regime change.

    A picture of Obama comes to mind, under the banner of AFRICOM with skulls dangling round his hat, and John McCain greeting Jesus pbuh in Damascus on a red carpet made from the blood of Syrians.

    Craig should know better than to be gung-ho about any of these things. I think his mind has been turned by his Muslim Qaida ‘friends’.

  55. By sending troops into the Ukraine, (others than those stationed there by agreement) Putin has broken international law.

    That parenthesis is pretty damned important. How do we know that Russia hasn’t acted only in keeping with bilateral arrangements with Ukraine regarding the Crimea?

    Maybe someone can post a link to those treaty arrangements?

    How much prior notice is Russia obliged to give, in relation to what kinds of military movements? and do the Banderists count as a legally constituted government?

    For all the bluster by politicians and barrack-room lawyering in the media, I would like to know what the agreement between Russia and the Ukraine regarding the Crimea actually says.

    It would also be useful to cite the Ukrainian constitution, especially to determine Yanukovych’s status if he asks for Russian assistance.

    That does not depend on the Budapest Memorandum. It would be a breach of international law whether the Budapest Memorandum existed or not. The effect of the Budapest Memorandum is rather to oblige the US and the UK to do something about it.

    One thing is for certain – the only actions that the Budapest Memorandum, on any interpretation, could possibly oblige the US, the UK or indeed Russia to take is to bring the matter of concern before the UN Security Council (para. 4) – and to consult with the other two powers (para. 6).

    The US, UK and Russia are not ‘guarantor powers’. If they were, there would be a Treaty of Guarantee, as there was with Cyprus: like this.

    I will paste the Budapest Memorandum below.

    I think there would have to be some ridiculous parsing of para. 4 to make it apply to any action or threat which does not involve nuclear weapons.

    (I will try to find a copy of the memorandum in Russian, where my interpretation should be provable or indeed disprovable using case endings. If anyone has got a link, please can they post it.)

    Basically the US, the UK and Russia must take the issue to the UNSC if someone attacks the Ukraine with nuclear weapons or threatens to do so.

    But while I’m here, does anyone think the US – along with Germany’s other ally, the UK :-) – haven’t breached Para 3?

    Here is the Memorandum. People can make up their own minds as to whether it’s being described honestly in the British media.

    ===========================================
    Memorandum on Security Assurances in connection with Ukraine’s accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons

    The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and
    the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,

    Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on
    the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as a
    non-nuclear-weapon State,

    Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to
    eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a
    specified period of time,

    Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation,
    including the end of the Cold War, which have brought
    about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces.

    Confirm the following:

    1. The United States of America, the Russian Federation,
    and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
    Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in
    accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act,
    to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the
    existing borders of Ukraine.

    2. The United States of America, the Russian Federation,
    and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
    Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the
    threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or
    political independence of Ukraine, and that none of
    their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except
    in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the
    Charter of the United Nations.

    3. The United States of America, the Russian Federation,
    and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
    Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in
    accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act,
    to refrain from economic coercion designed to
    subordinate to their own interest the exercise by
    Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and
    thus to secure advantages of any kind.

    4. The United States of America, the Russian Federation,
    and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
    Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate
    United Nations Security Council action to provide
    assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State
    Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear
    Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act
    of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in
    which nuclear weapons are used.

    5. The United States of America, the Russian Federation,
    and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
    Ireland, reaffirm, in the case of the Ukraine, their
    commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any
    non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the
    Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the
    case of an attack on themselves, their territories or
    dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies,
    by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear
    weapon state.

    6. The United States of America, the Russian Federation,
    and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
    Ireland will consult in the event a situation arises which
    raises a question concerning these commitments.

    This Memorandum will become applicable upon signature.
    ===========================================

  56. Worms turn.

    2 March 2014 Last updated at 17:18

    New head of Ukraine’s navy ‘defects’ in Crimea
    The newly appointed head of Ukraine’s navy has sworn allegiance to the Crimea region, in the presence of its unrecognised pro-Russian leader.

    Rear Admiral Denis Berezovsky was only made head of the navy on Saturday, as the government in Kiev reacted to the threat of Russian invasion.

    Russia’s troops have been consolidating their hold on Crimea, which is home to its Black Sea Fleet.

    The US has warned Moscow may be ejected from the G8 for its actions.

    ~~~
    BBC website. Wonder if he is related to the late Boris Berezovsky?

  57. Hopefully William Hague will exert a good influence in Ukraine when he goes there, along the lines of what you have written here.

  58. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 5:36 pm

    The following, from WIKISPOOKS, (16h20) appears to be a response to my request (to Herbie) to supply verbatim evidence for the suggestion that “Didn’t Nuland’s conversation with her ambassador indicate that she was pulling strings in terms of which fascist got what job?”:

    “Nuland: 3 x videos with the verbatim text; including her confirmation that the US has spent $5 billion to secure its objectives (of freedom and democracy naturally) in the Ukraine. And the last one – nervous young US Dept of State spokes-lady, Jan Paski, earnestly assuring us that black is white.”
    ______________________________

    Closer examination of this “evidence” makes it clear that this is another example of the tactic consisting in providing links which, when actually read, do not correspond, or then only partially correspond, to the claims made of them. Presumably the provider of the link(s) hopes that readers will not be bothered to read or listen to them carefully. But I have done so. Thus:

    1/. On the theme “Nuland is pulling strings in terms of which fascist got which job”.

    Wrong, and not evidenced by the verbatim, in which AS Nuland suggests that the Ambasssador make various phone calls (a normal function for a diplomat, one would think) and expresses the opinion to the Ambassador that Yats would probably be the best person to head the new govt (given his economic credentials) and that it would be better if Klishko and one other person were NOT in the govt. AND THAT IS ALL! No other names and govt posts mentioned, no evidence of pulling strings.

    2/. “including her confirmation that the US has spend $5 billion to secure its objectives”.

    This seeks to give the impression that the US has spent €5 billion since the crisis erupted ( or shortly before)in order to secure “US objectives”. But here is the transcript of what AS Nuland actually said on this in her conference (yes, I’ve taken the trouble to listen to it):

    “SINCE UKRAINIAN INDEPENDENCE IN 1991 the US has supported Ukrainians as they build democratic skills and institutions, as they promote civic participation and good governance, all of which are preconditions for Ukraine to achieve its European aspirations. We’ve invested over $5 billion to assist the Ukraine govt in these and other goals..”

    So, $5 billion since 1991, ie, over 12 years and not just latterly. (NB for context – US govt spending for fiscal 2013 alone was $3454 billion). And the objectives are objectives for Ukraine.

    ****************

    The conclusion must be that readers would be well-advised to overcome natural laziness and to read or listen to links VERY carefully, because those who provide the links do not always do so in good faith and with complete honesty.

  59. According to live ticker der Spiegel
    16:57 (Norwich is routed before half time by Villa), my emphasis and free translated the Canadian Foreign minister John Baird, just back from Kyiv, said ‘that he would not discount that he would ask the Russian Ambassador to leave’. John Baird clearly declared his refusal of a military intervention in the Ukraine by the West. This despite Canada’s withdrawl of its ambassador from Moscow last Saturday.

    17:11 Newly appointed head of the Ukrainian Navy declares his allegiance to Kiev.

    17:37 British Prime minister Cameron declares ‘that there would be no British ministers joining the paraolympics in Sochi due to the situation in the Ukraine’

    sorry to post again..
    http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/liveticker-zur-krim-krise-am-2-maerz-2014-a-956418.html

  60. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_democracy

    The current status quo run by virtue less corporations and functionaries.

  61. The conclusion must be that readers would be well-advised to overcome natural laziness and to read or listen to links VERY carefully, because those who provide the links do not always do so in good faith and with complete honesty.

    [Personal arguments will be deleted]

  62. Non-interference principle

    2 Mar, 2014 - 5:43 pm

  63. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 5:44 pm

    Mary

    “BBC website. Wonder if he is related to the late Boris Berezovsky?”
    ______________________-

    Admiral Denis Berezovsky is not related to the late oligarch Boris Berezovsky.

    You probably know, Mary (being a musical sort of person, as you’ve told us) that there is a -happily living – Russian pianist of genius named Boris Berezovsky.

    If you ask me nicely, I’ll be happy to tell you whether or not he’s related to the late Boris Berezovsky.

    *******************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  64. I have now read the Russian version, and can report that the ambiguity of the ending of para.4 is the same as in the English version.

    Neither version makes it clear whether the modifier “in which nuclear weapons are used” (“с применением ядерного оружия” – “with the use of nuclear weapons”) applies both to the act of aggression and the threat of aggression or just to the latter.

  65. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 5:53 pm

    N_

    “But while I’m here, does anyone think the US – along with Germany’s other ally, the UK :-) – haven’t breached Para 3?”
    ___________________

    Para 3 refers to “refraining from economic coercion” (on Ukraine). Aren’t you getting the US and UK mixed up with rasPutin’s Russia?

    *******************

    “Life is getting better, life is getting merrier!” (J. Stalin, ca. 1932)

  66. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 5:59 pm

    N_

    “I have now read the Russian version, and can report that the ambiguity of the ending of para.4 is the same as in the English version.

    Neither version makes it clear whether the modifier “in which nuclear weapons are used” (“с применением ядерного оружия” – “with the use of nuclear weapons”) applies both to the act of aggression and the threat of aggression or just to the latter.”
    _____________________

    The modifier obviously applies to the act of aggression; but since it has been placed at the end of the clause and not directly after act of aggression (it could have been so placed), it obviously applies to both act of aggression AND threat of aggression.

  67. Non-interference praxis

    2 Mar, 2014 - 6:01 pm

    Damn. The Slovenia playbook. Pretty slick.

    http://rt.com/news/ukraine-military-russia-resign-437/

  68. Habby

    You may think that it’s not unusual for a US Assistant Secretary of State and an ambassador to decide who gets the top jobs in Ukraine, but others are entitled to see it as interference in the internal affairs of another country.

    Nor was there anything legitimate about the ouster of the president.

    http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2014/02/26/euromaidan-coup/

  69. Afraid the most proved by this thread, Craig, is your showing what a hypocrite you apparently were when you denounced Russophobia – now displaying the worst version of it where Putin in responsible for everything occurring in the Ukraine where its coup started nothing, and the Anglo-Americans did nothing to stoke it up.

  70. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 6:23 pm

    Herbie

    “Habby

    You may think that it’s not unusual for a US Assistant Secretary of State and an ambassador to decide who gets the top jobs in Ukraine,..”
    __________________

    You’re still being dishonest, Herbie, because you’re misrepresenting the purpose of my post. That purpose was to demonstrate that the verbatim of the Nuland telephone conversation with the US Ambassador – cited as “evidence” – in fact contained NO evidence to support claims of US string-pulling regarding the composition of the Ukraine govt.

    BTW – have you checked out the figures for the Rada vote yet, as suggested?

  71. Non-interference

    2 Mar, 2014 - 6:28 pm

    N_, considering how the UN Charter makes use or threat of force a single thing, the implication ought to be that ‘nuclear’ modifies both.

    But what that means is that Ukraine will be protected from nuclear attacks or threats. Putin’s not threatening to nuke them.

    The takeaway message of Craig’s post for me is that the NATO bloc should suck it up and resort to pacific resolut

  72. Non-interference

    2 Mar, 2014 - 6:29 pm

    oops ion of disputes. They hate that shit, but there’s nothing else they can do.

  73. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 6:35 pm

    N_

    zzzzzzzzzzz

    with repect, obviously!

  74. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 6:37 pm

    with reSpect, obviously!

    I underestimated your soporific effect.

  75. Is south Ossetia now safe from NATO interference via Georgia? or was that just a summer cake walk? nothing to do with us, oh no Gov. nowt to do with the west.

    So if Georgia is not strong enough to help itself to south Ossetia than NATO will help, will it?

    Tartarstan Tuerks related to the Crimean are demonstarting in Ankara.

    here is the latest freely translated, comments in brackets are mione
    18:36 The white house tells us that ‘president Obama will work on the Ukraine crisis all sunday and shall correspond with allies by phone

    18:37 A few hundred of proptesters in Berlin were marching with Ukrainian flags and protesting against Putins military actions visavis Ukraines problems. (were did they get all those flags from on a sunday) Plakats showed and reminded the public of Russias record of military interventions, they said “DDR 1953, Ungarn 1956, Tschechoslowakei 1968, Afghanistan 1979, Georgien 2008, Ukraine 2014?”

  76. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 6:45 pm

    Trowbridge H Ford

    And you don’t think that Putin’s support for the corrupt Yanukovych and his constant meddling in Ukrainian affairs for many many years might not also have stoked up things just the teeniest little bit?

    And I suppose you don’t regard Putin’s interference in other neighbouring states of Russia (or members of the Soviet Union as I’m sure you and Putin would prefer to call them) has gone at all beyond what is acceptable.

  77. Some of the babbling on whether or whether not a possible nuclear strike would/could/should occure are daft and purile. Why would Putin set off a nuclear attack next to his purse, a vast gas pipeline infrastructure that makes him millions/hour?

    I see some have surcommed to the socket winding up his nuts again,just forget about the f…..r! ignore!

  78. Habby

    Thankfully we don’t have to rely on dishonest interpretations from you.

    Even the BBC, whom one would expect to take as pro-western a position as possible, have been forced to conclude:

    “this transcript suggests that the US has very clear ideas about what the outcome should be and is striving to achieve these goals.”

    “An intriguing insight into the foreign policy process with work going on at a number of levels: Various officials attempting to marshal the Ukrainian opposition; efforts to get the UN to play an active role in bolstering a deal; and (as you can see below) the big guns waiting in the wings – US Vice-President Joe Biden clearly being lined up to give private words of encouragement at the appropriate moment.”

    “The US is clearly much more involved in trying to broker a deal in Ukraine than it publicly lets on.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26079957

    And still, your claim that the parliamentary ouster of the president had legitimacy remains unsubstantiated.

  79. NATO’s ueberguru Rasmussen is briefing the press right now on the Ukraine.
    http://t.co/xfwFiCQyPM

  80. Can we trust a paywall wallstreetjournal with the headline

    The US has tracked thousands of Russian troops moving into the Ukraine?

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304815004579415211128721266

  81. Thanks Nevermind:

    “British Prime minister Cameron declares ‘that there would be no British ministers joining the paraolympics in Sochi due to the situation in the Ukraine’”

    Fuking playground politics from agent Cameron.

    A disabled neighbor with a child had her benefit capped on the false suspicion of taking a lodger in. She asked me today where the nearest food-bank was so that her child could have something to eat.

  82. conjunction

    2 Mar, 2014 - 7:07 pm

    Characteristically thoughtful piece Craig, thankyou. Interested in your point that the West is not in a position to provide meaningful financial aid. The Economist this week, in an article written before Putin’s invasion of the Crimea, thought otherwise, lining up Merkel and the IMF as Santa’s elves. It also described the Rada, Ukraine’s parliament, as a nest of crooks and noted the absence of likely claimants to the throne. The Economist also thought financial aid should be laced with assistance in holding proper elections etc. These views seem in some ways well-intentioned but characteristically naive, and it is hard to see western financial aid materialising now with Putin playing hardball.

  83. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 7:09 pm

    Herbie

    Presidents that have their hand in the till with their cronies big time, lock up opposition leaders on trumped up charges, seek to rig parliament and then use snipers to shoot demonstrators tend to lose their democratic mandate pretty quickly. Given said President then flees the country – I would have said a Parliament which immediately sets the date for new Presidential elections has rather more legitimacy – and certainly more than the Leader of another country who currently has one of his political opponents under house arrest.

    I’m afraid your hypocrisy when it comes to foreign interference in the affairs of other countries has been totally exposed by your craven support for the works of Mr Putin.

  84. Herbie, Yanukovych was voted out by 328 to 0 of 450 Ukrainian MPs; technically, 338 should have been required.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#Impeachment_and_vote_to_remove

    On 22 February 2014[13] members of the Ukrainian parliament (MPs) voted 328-0 to “remove Viktor Yanukovych from the post of president of Ukraine” and hold early presidential elections on 25 May. [...] The constitutional guidelines provide for a review of the case by Ukraine’s Constitutional Court and a three-fourths majority vote by parliament (338 deputies)

    There is some question about the legality, but it looks pretty minor to me:

    According to a written report by Radio Free Europe, the impeachment did not follow the procedure[168] provided by the constitution enacted during Yanukovych’s administration. There was doubt whether the ousting of him was legal because Yanukovich had not signed the bills that would restore the constitution to the way it was between 2004 and 2010.

    The following link is a Google translation of the Radio Free Europe report above (reference [168]):

    http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Flenta.ru%2Fnews%2F2014%2F02%2F23%2Fus%2F

    I think Yanukovych was ousted legitimately, in the spirit though not quite the letter of Ukrainian law.

  85. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 7:19 pm

    “Fuking playground politics from agent Cameron.”

    And how else would you suggest that he shows his disapproval?

    And just how generous do you think your hero Putin has been with social, pensions and health spending in Russia funded by his egalitarian 13% flat rate of income tax. When will the sclaes fall from your eyes when it comes to your hero?

  86. Allende was elected. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d'état

    “The United States government, which had worked to create the conditions for the coup,[9] promptly recognized the junta government and supported it in consolidating power.[10] A weak insurgent movement against the Pinochet government was maintained inside Chile by elements sympathetic to the former Allende government. An internationally supported plebiscite in 1988 eventually removed Pinochet from power.”

    International law, notwithstanding.

  87. Clark

    1. Were members threatened with or in fear of violence?

    2. Were all members who wished to vote in attendance.

    http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2014/02/26/euromaidan-coup/

  88. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 7:27 pm

    Ben

    You should be aware that Putin and the crowd around him have been long time admirers of the politics and economics of the Pinochet regime

    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/sitemap/paid/1998/1/article/aven-putin-should-follow-pinochet/264757.html

    The low flat rate income tax and near complete absence of controls over capital going overseas were of course two if the favourites of Pinochet’s Chicago boys.

  89. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 7:28 pm

    Herbie

    To quote your own words to me:

    “I won’t waste further time with you.” (followed soon after by two further posts from you to me, but nevermind, eh!)

    But before not wasting any further time on you, I’d like to congratulate you on enlisting the usually much-reviled BBC to your cause:

    “Even the BBC, whom one would expect to take as pro-western a position as possible, have been forced to conclude:…”.

    Unfortunately, you’ve managed to get that wrong as well. Your BBC link in fact concludes:

    “The US is clearly much more involved in trying to broker a deal in Ukraine than it publicly lets on.”

    Broker a deal.

    Whereas the discussion on here was about the verbatim of the Nuland phone conversation displaying no evidence at all for US string-pulling in the formation of the new Ukraine govt.

    Wakey wakey!

  90. Herbie, 7:22 pm; I haven’t seen a video, but in the photograph on the translated article I linked, Ukrainian MP’s look pleased and don’t appear to be coerced. But if you can find contrary evidence, do post it. I’m convinced he was an unpopular criminal. Have you seen the ‘palace’ he had built? I think he had $18 billion.

    Please just do the research and don’t drag arguments out. I’m reading Boiling Frogs, but it’s quite a long article.

  91. Res Diss

    You’re waffling.

    All the Ukrainian leaders are corrupt, including the one whom you claim was locked up on trumped up charges.

    When I say corrupt, I mean that they’re not quite so discreet as their western counterparts.

    And please, spare me the propaganda.

    This is quite simply another effort by the west at installing its own puppets, something which it seems you support.

  92. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 7:39 pm

    Even Yanukovych own Party recognised that he had lost legitimacy

    http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_02_23/Party-of-Regions-faction-blames-Yanukovych-for-fatalities-in-Ukraine-events-5981/

    And this was reported on one of the Putinophiles approved channels of communication!

  93. Herbie, despite what I’ve written about Yanukovych, I don’t support the violence of the right-wingers, and I still want to know where the apparently paramilitary force came from, their funding, and who was giving them orders. They’re very conspicous on the videos.

    Herbie, I don’t have a very political mind. I find the numbers of people involved and their multiple conflicting objectives confusing. But the sort of thing you’re doing, picking fights with Habbabkuk based upon your assumptions about his intentions, makes it much more difficult for me.

    Please just research and post convincing evidence.

  94. Clark

    I’m not sure what you’re on about, Clark.

    They’re all corrupt. They work for oligarchs, you see.

    You seem to think this one was especially corrupt and that leads you to think even his own supporters would willingly vote against him.

    Try and understand what it was like to be in Kiev with armed fascists roaming about through the parliament. Remember there’s no police. The fascists are now the muscler. His supporters would not willingly vote him out, other than in fear of their lives.

    The boiling frogs article explains all that.

  95. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 7:42 pm

    This is quite simply another effort by the west at installing its own puppets, something which it seems you support.

    As opposed to being puppets of Putin which seems to cause you no problems whatsoever.

  96. Habbabkuk, and while I’m at it, could you PLEASE stop winding people up? It just makes them worse. Have a bit of sympathy for the not-naturally-political like me, and help to keep things simple. The situation we’re looking at is complex enough already.

  97. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 7:45 pm

    “The boiling frogs article explains all that.”

    and the Voice of Russia report suggests the opposite – I’m sorry they didn’t quite change the propaganda line in time.

  98. OrwellianUK

    2 Mar, 2014 - 7:47 pm

  99. Clark

    I’m not making assumptions. I’m simply asking questions about habby’s stated position.

    Res Diss

    Were Russia involving itself in the internal affairs of a country within the US or Western orbit of influence, you’d have a point, but he isn’t and you don’t.

    =========================================================================

    How many times do people have to see the same trick pulled before they wake up. It might be slightly better were anyone to benefit from these outrages but only a select few will do so.

  100. Herbie, sorry, the photo’ wasn’t on my translated article link, it was on this BBC article:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26304842

    The police stopped keeping the protesters out. For now, I’m assuming that the police did that because they wanted to; they stopped supporting corruption.

    The protests obviously have huge popular support; this is NOT all one-sided. On the other hand, there is what looks like a very organised paramilitary force present.

    Now I’m going back to Boiling Frogs, because I always try to look at all sides. You could have helped by pasting the paragraph you thought most relevant into your comment and giving a paragraph reference with your link, but you seem to put more of your time into having an argument here on this thread.

  101. “Fuking playground politics from agent Cameron.”

    And how else would you suggest that he shows his disapproval?

    Resident Dissident, I think the point Mark was trying to make is that Cameron has no pull in the international arena. He cannot even get Shaker Aamer released from Guantanamo Bay even though we are supposed to have a special relationship. An he has given me no answer why.

    http://newsjunkiepost.com/2014/01/24/free-shaker-aamer-from-gitmo-an-open-letter-to-british-pm-david-cameron/

  102. The biggest source of the problems in the Ukraine is its pro-Westers minority, headed by Tymoskenko which has never accepted the election returns for its President.

    In South Ossetia, it was that Western stooge, Saakaswili, who hoped to surprise Putin by invading the Russian ethnic areas south of the Caucusus, but the Russian President learned of it first, and beat his forces to the southern exit of the tunnel under the mountains.

  103. Habby

    Were Nuland and the ambassador picking leaders?

    Yes or No.

  104. Should be “And he has given me no answer why.”

  105. Everywhere I look, ‘news’ articles are plagued by opinion. I have to wade through reams of it to encounter a few facts, which then often turn out to be unsourced, poorly sourced, or sourced from further opinion. It’s a fucking nightmare.

  106. Clark

    You say that the protests obviously had huge popular support. Where are you getting that from?

    How are you quantifying it?

    I hope it’s not just another photograph.

    You still don’t seem to appreciate that the armed fascists were running Kiev, rather than the remaining police.

    Hasn’t it crossed your mi

  107. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 8:12 pm

    “Were Russia involving itself in the internal affairs of a country within the US or Western orbit of influence, you’d have a point, but he isn’t and you don’t.”

    So what you are really saying is that it is ok for Putin to interfere in what you consider to be Russia’s orbit of influence. I’m afraid this is just gold old fashioned imperialism – and you favoured empire is of course the good old Soviet Union.

    Just as a matter of interest do you regard Syria as being within Putin’s legitimate orbit of influence. Is Africa part of China’s legitimate orbit of influence? Are the Ukrainians allowed to have their own orbit of influence?

    I’m afraid you’ve just hung yourself on your own petard.

  108. Res Diss

    Not at all. You’re obviously quite happy that the West interferes in other countries and have supported such intervention in the past, but you’re not happy that Russia protects its interests on its border.

    You just don’t appreciate that this could be for Russia what Cuba was for the US.

    That’s your hypocrisy.

    I think Kennedy was right about the Cuban missile crisis but the US was not right about subsequent plots against Cuba and Castro.

  109. RD – “And how else would you suggest that he shows his disapproval?”

    By communicating face to face and giving ‘piece of mind’ advice not disdain.

    Disabled British athletes competing in Sochi doubtless feel left in the cold – paltry, pitiful and pathetic Mr Cameron. Classic empty suit.

  110. Herbie, watch the Babylon 13 videos on YouTube. Support is widespread. People are bringing food and other support to those paramilitary forces. Ordinary people were collecting and breaking up cobblestones. People are singing!

    We’ve also had personal reports here on this blog. See Phil’s comments here:

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/02/why-should-ukraine-not-split/comment-page-2/#comment-443075

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/02/why-should-ukraine-not-split/comment-page-2/#comment-443135

    Yes, I believe that US-based interests have been running a propaganda campaign in Ukraine. But those campaigns were targeted at feelings that really did exist among the people. It’s mentioned in the boiling Frogs article; loads of Ukrainians wanted Ukraine to join the EU. When it didn’t happen, violence broke out or was ordered or both.

    There are probably no right-wrong answers in this. It’s going to be a case of making the best of a bad job. And yes, yet again, it looks like US interests have strengthened and encouraged violent forces, and that this will have repercussions long after the US interests have achieved their objectives.

    Usual mess.

  111. Sunday, March 02, 2014
    ‘NATO TROOPS SHOT BOTH SIDES IN UKRAINE’ – REPORT http://aangirfan.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/nato-troops-shot-both-sides-in-ukraine.html

  112. Resident Dissident, no it’s not OK for Russia to interfere in Ukraine, but can you really imagine them not doing so with all this going on?

    It should never have come to this. And that’s a failing shared between many governments, created over a long time.

    Seriously, if we as humans can’t manage something purely human like this, what possible hope do we have against climate change? We all of us really need to raise our game, and fast. If we can’t even stop squabbling here on this nice little blog, how can we point the finger at anyone else?

  113. I don’t quite agree with ‘Resident Dissident’ above, since Mr. Murray’s stance on so-called ‘liberal interventionism’ seems consistent and he grounds his arguments in International Law. The problem is, though, that Blair and Clinton and comrades let that cat out of the bag nearly twenty years ago. I remember Putin saying in relation to Serbia/Kosovo that the West’s stance in that matter would “come back to haunt them”. I guess he was right.

    Where I disagree with Mr. Murray is in what he doesn’t say rather than what he says.

    Firstly, with regard to Russian actions in the Caucasus, my understanding is that Russia believes in the Nation-state and its sovereignty and independence. They also put some store in International Law. Their words and their actions would at least seem to have the virtue of consistency – unlike the West, who always expect to be able to have it both ways. Whether we like it or not, Dagestan and Chechnya are part of Russia – just as New Mexico, Arizona and California are part of the U.S.A. (ask the Mexicans!).

    Secondly, Russia’s actions, however illegal are re-active, not pro-active. They have been sorely provoked – not just over the past decade in Ukraine, but for more than twenty years since the U.S.S.R. went belly up. It really isn’t a good idea to rub people’s noses in it and take the opportunity to give ‘em a jolly good kicking when they’re down. One day they’ll get up. That doesn’t justify what they’ve done, but it makes it understandable. They’ve been pushed and pushed, insulted and ridiculed. What do people expect? And why the double standard. We maintain fairly good relations with China and some fairly dubious people in Central Asia who are at least as bad a Putin. We ought to be on much better terms with Russia and it is entirely our fault that we are not.

  114. Agent CameraOn will be on a four way phone call tonight to Kerry in the US, Lithuania and Poland (Tusk). Hope he’s using the Friends and Families rate.

  115. Black jelly

    2 Mar, 2014 - 8:46 pm

    The UN needs to be relocated from the city of 911 urgently it has lost its authority. We have the murderous “Fuck EU” crowd organising coups and cannibals against democratically elected governments with redneck gungho “we came we saw and he died” high ranking US operatives distributing matzo balls to trained CIA operatives & seditionists on the ground in public squares,openly in broad daylight. And now we have had the Russian retort to the complete diss of the UN by the Beast mentioned in the Bible aka the Great Satan.

    Its all downhill from now on unless the UN Headquarters are relocated, Craig Murray is a bit naive if he thinks the US/NATO can REPEATEDLY diss the UN Charter whilst expecting the rest to meekly lie back and think of England ! The Russians have enough power to raze USrael to the ground in FOUR HOURS. When bibi satanyahu was getting a bit uppity with Jericho they fired the nuclear-capable missile RS-12M Topol from South Russia to its test destination near Khazakstan – an exact distance to Tel Aviv in case no one noticed.

  116. Could I someone to do some research from here please:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleh_Tsariov

    The aangirfan article is partly based on the testimony of “Ukrainian lawmaker” Oleg Tsarev, “a Dnipropetrovsk businessman and People’s Deputy of Ukraine for the Party of Regions” (Wikipedia). But on the History page, things like this keep being added and removed:

    “Hand of the Kremlin” in the Supreme Council of Ukraine. A Traitor To Ukraine.

  117. Clark

    The Ukraine is a deeply divided, cobbled together entity and it’s my view that those who would set alight those divisions are to blame for what has now transpired and they did it in full knowledge of what the result would be.

    There’ll always be genuine people who just want a better life, but this wasn’t the way to go about it, and ultimately they’re just being used anyway.

    Were the West really interested in the wellbeing of the Ukraine they could have got together with the Russians, but no, they used these ethnic and other divisions to undermine the Russians thereby creating this mess.

    If there’s anyone to blame for the fracture it lies in the West rather than Russia.

  118. Thanks Mark, Cameron is about as wet as a kipper sliding down a rock on this issue, wet and slimy.

    How can you not support the paralympics team when all of this is happening?

    I’m off to bed, need to be ready for tommorrows practical archeology lessons. I’m helping with recording the ruins of the Gorleston Priory, a medieval priory that produced some of the finest manuscripts of the 14th. century.

    the Gorleston Psalter is now in the british museum
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorleston_Psalter

    there are also websites which show some of the expertly painted scenes, but my bandwidth here is hairsplitting and sites take ages to load.

    Спокойной ночи и спать спокойно

  119. Habba @4.37 PM.

    I’m afraid I can’t give you a ‘clearer picture’ of the composition of Ukraine’s sovereign debt other than that provided in the link I gave earlier.

    I posted that link as you queried what Craig meant by stating ‘The chances of Ukraine escaping from Russian political and economic domination in the near future are non-existent – the Ukrainians are tied by debt’.

    Mr Ward explains that a) a disproportionate amount of their sovereign debt is in very short term bonds and that b)Russia is no longer willing to buy these bonds.

    Further elucidation from me on the relevance of these points won’t be forthcoming. For more information on the economic fallout from the current crisis please contact-

    Mr G Soros
    C/O International Crisis Group
    Brussels
    Belgium

    If you are seeking to profit from the current situation, he has peerless expertise in this area.

  120. Sajid Javid and Nick Boles (Tories) are accusing Miliband of assisting the Ukraine crisis.

    Ed Miliband rejects Tory attempts to link Syria vote to Ukraine crisis
    Labour leader says it is nonsense to suggest parliament’s vote against air strikes in Syria helped embolden Vladimir Putin
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/02/ed-miliband-tories-syria-vote-ukraine

    Javid, a British Pakistani, is a Con Friend of Israel. He visited Israel in 2012 and 2013. One of the trips was funded by the American Enterprise Institute whom he has also visited in Washington.
    http://www.theyworkforyou.com/regmem/?p=24854 His register of interests.

    American Enterprise Institute. Kagan, Wolfowitz, Bolton and other many other neocons.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Enterprise_Institute

    Nick Boles is a member of the Cambridge-based think tank the Henry Jackson Society, which advocates a pro-active approach to the spread of democracy in the world. In 2012 Boles was listed as being a participant in that year’s Bilderberg meeting.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Boles

    Both are said to be friends of Osborne, also a Bilderberger, incidentally.

    Some fits surely.

    Qs
    Who wants Syria defeated? Israel
    Who has protected Syria? Putin
    Who interfered in Ukraine? The US.

  121. Interesting Mary – Thankyou and the aangirfan link – you really are flat out -bravo!

  122. A plethora of revolutions as the author says.

    Weekend Edition Feb 28-Mar 02, 2014

    Global War on the 99%
    How International Financial Elites Change Governments to Implement Austerity

    by ISMAEL HOSSEIN-ZADEH

    Many countries around the world are plagued by all kinds of armed rebellions, economic sanctions, civil wars, “democratic” coup d’états and/or wars of “regime change.” These include Ukraine, Venezuela, Syria, Thailand, Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, Egypt, Yemen, Somalia and Lebanon. Even in the core capitalist countries the overwhelming majority of citizens are subjected to brutal wars of economic austerity.

    While not new, social convulsions seem to have become more numerous in recent years. They have become especially more frequent since the mysterious 9-11 attacks on the World Trade Center in 2001 and the 2008 financial collapse in the United States, which soon led to similar financial implosions and economic crises in Europe and beyond.

    Despite their many differences, these social turbulences share two common features. The first is that they are largely induced, nurtured and orchestrated from outside, that is, by the Unites States and its allies—of course, in collaboration with their class allies from inside. And the second is that, contrary to the long-established historical pattern of social revolutions, where the desperate and disenfranchised masses rebelled against the ruing elites, in most of the recent struggles it is the elites that have instigated insurgencies and civil wars against the masses. The two features are, of course, integrally intertwined: essentially reflecting the shared interests and collaborative schemes of the international plutocracies against the global 99%.

    /..
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/28/how-international-financial-elites-change-governments-to-implement-austerity/

  123. Herbie,

    I think the ousting of Yanukovich was of doubtful legality. However if it were completely illegal, it still does not make it legal for another country to invade. If mass demonstrations against the benefit cuts forced Cameron from office, it would not entitle anyone to invade to put him back, no matter how much violence had accompanied the demonstrations. It is a question of internal government.

    I have seen no evidence at all that Western security services were effective in ousting Yanukovitch and I do not believe they were at all a significant factor. They really are not that good. I did see a lot of evidence of a great many very angry Ukrainians.

    Equally I am not at the moment convinced that neo-Nazis hold positions in the current Ukrainian government in Kiev. It is not impossible, but I should like to see some evidence. What is the neo-Nazi affiliation of the current acting President or any of his ministers, and where precisely is the evidence of it?

  124. The aangirfan article that Mary linked to has the headline

    “‘NATO TROOPS SHOT BOTH SIDES IN UKRAINE’ – REPORT”

    but the links in the article don’t actually support that. Here’s a Google Translation for the first:

    http://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25D0%25A1%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B0%25D0%25B9%25D0%25BF%25D0%25B5%25D1%2580%25D1%258B%2B%2522%25D0%259E%25D0%25BC%25D0%25B5%25D0%25B3%25D0%25B8%2522%2B%25D0%25B3%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%25D0%25BE%25D1%2580%25D1%258F%25D1%2582,%2B%25D1%2587%25D1%2582%25D0%25BE%2B%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B5%2B%25D1%2581%25D1%2582%25D1%2580%25D0%25B5%25D0%25BB%25D1%258F%25D0%25BB%25D0%25B8%2B%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B0%2B%25D0%259C%25D0%25B0%25D0%25B9%25D0%25B4%25D0%25B0%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B5%2B%25D0%25B8%2B%25D0%25B7%25D0%25B0%25D1%258F%25D0%25B2%25D0%25BB%25D1%258F%25D1%258E%25D1%2582%2B%25D0%25BE%2B%2522%25D1%2582%25D1%2580%25D0%25B5%25D1%2582%25D1%258C%25D0%25B5%25D0%25B9%2B%25D1%2581%25D1%2582%25D0%25BE%25D1%2580%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B5%2522%26safe%3Doff&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=ru&u=http://rus.newsru.ua/ukraine/21feb2014/tretia_sila.html

    Former head of intelligence: a third force, which provokes both sides
    Publication time: 21 February 2014 09:49
    last update: February 21, 2014, 11:01

    Acts on Maidan third force, which provokes both parties, their representatives and shoot at protesters. This opinion was expressed by former Head of Intelligence Skipalsky Alexander in an interview to “Kommersant-Ukraine” .

    “MIA actually pretends not to notice how under his nose are criminal groups agreed with certain authorities. Therefore, most law enforcement officers who work on the Maidan, disoriented and not fully understand what is happening. And” maydanovtsy “too, apparently, do not understand that a third force operating here, which provokes both sides.’s this third force, and there are terrorists in the full sense of the word. Because they work in order to intimidate the population,” – he said.

    He said that under the “third force” refers to the mercenaries.

    “It bandits who shoot for the money people. SBU and MIA should detain them, but they, unfortunately, do not … I think it’s mercenaries,” – said the former head of General Intelligence.

  125. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 9:28 pm

    ‘Erbie

    “Habby

    Were Nuland and the ambassador picking leaders?

    Yes or No.”
    _______________________

    It’s a little like me claiming that Resident Dissident and I have picked you as Useful Idiot of the week. But, you know, we could pick you as much as we like and that still wouldn’t make you this week’s Useful Idiot; you have to get to the top all by yourself and on your own merits – as you have indeed done.

  126. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 9:34 pm

    Mary

    “Agent CameraOn will be on a four way phone call tonight to Kerry in the US, Lithuania and Poland (Tusk). Hope he’s using the Friends and Families rate.”
    ____________________-

    I shouldn’t think so, Mary. The taxpayer foots the bill for the PM’s calls – and I’m pleased to say that includes you. Enjoy the thought! :)

  127. I don’t have a dog in this fight, but it might be easier to understand Russia’s actions if we consider Sevastopol to be Russia’s Gibraltar. Let your imagination do the rest.

    There is no doubt that Western meddling provoked the overthrow of Yanukovich leading to the installation of far right and neo-fascists in the Ukrainain government and they cannot really complain at Russia’s reaction. After all, Russia spent 20 million lives the last time the fascists got their nose under the tent, I don’t think they want them on the doorstep again.

    The West has been thumbing its nose at international law for so long that they really have surrendered all moral high ground from which to lecture anybody else. When you sow the wind…

  128. Black jelly

    2 Mar, 2014 - 9:40 pm

    CM – “I have seen no evidence at all that Western security services were effective in ousting Yanukovitch and I do not believe they were at all a significant factor.”

    Are you kidding us ! Victoria Nuland,Assistant US Secretary of State, no less, distributing cookies to the crowd at Maidan. The POTUS warning the Yanukovitch Government “there will be consequence” (if the Maidanistas come to harm). The Nuland “F U ” conversation with the Ambassador was simply based on wishful thinking then, that there was no planning/operations that had led up to it?!! Common CM, even the toothpaste bombing Sochi scare was part of the operation. There is a division at the Pentagon that orchestrates these events in great detail – it has a lot of experience and a standard template, if I may add !! A similar operation is currently in progress against Maduro in Venezuela

  129. “Yats’ and Klitschko are members of Svoboda. Yats is pushing for austerity and as we know, that doesn’t work unless you are a tin-pot dictator.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)

    “The All-Ukrainian Union “Svoboda” (Ukrainian: Всеукраїнське об’єднання «Свобода», Vseukrayinske obyednannia “Svoboda”), translated as Freedom, is a Ukrainian nationalist political party,[2] and currently one of the five major parties of the country.[9] Five members of the party hold positions in Ukraine’s government.
    The party was founded in 1991 as the Social-National Party of Ukraine (Ukrainian: Соціал-національна партія України), a reference to National Socialism.[10][11] Today Svoboda acts as a populist proponent of nationalism and anti-communism. It is positioned on the right of the Ukrainian political spectrum”

  130. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 9:44 pm

    Nevermind

    “Thanks Mark, Cameron is about as wet as a kipper sliding down a rock on this issue, wet and slimy.”
    __________________

    You’re a bit of a landlubber, aren’t you – or perhaps you don’t eat fish.

    For your information, kippers are a product derived from fish; you’d therefore be unlikely to see one “sliding down a rock” – unless of course you were standing on said rock, gazing out to sea, and your Waitrose plastic bag unexpectedly split. Is that what happened?

    Following on from the above, may I also point out that fresh fish are much slimier than kippers, which although quite oily are actually not slimy at all.

  131. What proportion of people in the Ukraine in the 1980s saw themselves as speaking Russian as their main language of choice, with or without a southern or Ukrainian accent?

    I’ve seen various figures. And of course since 1991 there has been a massive effort to bombard people with yellow-and-blue Ukrainian nationalism in the school system and the media. (See also Croatia and Serbia, where contrary to what liars and idiots may say, ‘Croatian’, ‘Serbian’ and ‘Bosnian’ are not three different languages.)

    But I wondered whether someone here might have some kind of figure based on personal knowledge, rather than something they’ve found on the internet in the past few days.

    Was it more than 50%?

  132. “I don’t quite agree with ‘Resident Dissident’ above, since Mr. Murray’s stance on so-called ‘liberal interventionism’ seems consistent and he grounds his arguments in International Law.”

    Russia never ratified the Rome Statute. They also have UNSC power of veto.

  133. See Jonathan Steele’s article in The Guardian for a bit of sanity on NATO’s and Washington’s madness on the Ukraine.

  134. Black Jelly

    I have taken part myself in a great many diplomatic exchanges about what we wanted to happen at the time in various countries. It doesn’t magically translate into their happening.

    How on earth you think that Nuland warning Yanukovich against shooting demonstrators – entirely sensible – or handing out cookies (daft), or pontificating on who she wanted to be in power (incidentally the person she wanted is not in power)- translated into bringing down the government, I know not. If diplomacy was that easy, I wouldn’t have given it up.

    That the West wanted Yanukovic to go, there is no doubt. That they caused him to go is simply untrue. You have provided evidence of the former, and none of the latter.

  135. doug scorgie

    2 Mar, 2014 - 9:55 pm

    Nevermind
    2 Mar, 2014 – 4:01 pm

    “can someone please tell us what Sasha Billy was saying to the public prosecutor? or do I have to ask a more discerning crowd somewhere else?”
    “somebody should get the guist of what he was on about throttling the young chap up by his tie.”

    I haven’t found a transcript of the video yet Nevermind but Uzbek in the UK thinks it was a “well-staged play” (ie Russian propaganda) so no good asking him for a translation

  136. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 9:57 pm

    Old Mark

    “I’m afraid I can’t give you a ‘clearer picture’ of the composition of Ukraine’s sovereign debt other than that provided in the link I gave earlier.”
    _________________________

    Oh, I’m surprised and sorry to hear that, I was curious to know the composition of the other 75% of Ukraine’s debt and who owns it. But never mind, I’m sure the IMF will provide the info in its forthcoming report and we’ll be reading about it in the financial press shortly.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “Mr Ward explains that a) a disproportionate amount of their sovereign debt is in very short term bonds and that b)Russia is no longer willing to buy these bonds.”
    _________________

    That appears to imply that Russia mostly owns the 25% pf Ukrainian debt which is in short-term bonds, doesn’t it. If correct, that’s very interesting and would make it appear that Russia is the bad boy.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “Further elucidation from me on the relevance of these points won’t be forthcoming.”
    ______________________

    I quite understand, but since I was asking about the composition and ownership of the remaining 75% of Ukraine’s debt and not about the “relevance of these points” it doesn’t really matter, does it.

  137. What do Kerry and Hague think their visits to Kiev will achieve?

    http://news.sky.com/story/1219658/ukraines-new-navy-chief-defects-to-crimea

    Perhaps they will defect? :)

    Pantsdown thinks we are very near the edge. Just one step and it could all go pear shaped. What ridiculous politicians we have been landed with.

  138. doug scorgie

    2 Mar, 2014 - 10:08 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!
    2 Mar, 2014 – 4:06 pm

    To Herbie:
    “You’ve got it the wrong way round : when YOU make a claim (or insinuation), it is for YOU to back it up – with facts.”

    Habbabkuk, when YOU make a claim it would be helpful if YOU backed-up that with FACTS properly referenced.

    (It’s a great life, if you don’t weaken)

  139. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 10:09 pm

    “Yats’ and Klitschko are members of Svoboda.

    Yats is a meber of Fatherland and Klitschko is the leader of UDAR neither are members of Svoboda.

  140. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 10:19 pm

    Richard

    I didn’t imply that Craig was inconsistent in his stance against liberal interventionism – he isn’t. I just wanted to make that such a stance was not consistent with that of John Stuart Mill who Craig has often eulogized in the past. I should also add that there are grounds in which liberal interventionism is permitted under international law – if you search around you will see that this is an area of extensive legal debate.

    Fred

    Russia does however subscribe to the European and United Nations Conventions on Human Rights.

  141. @CM – Ok I hear you, but as the situation escalates Boris is going to reveal some even more juicy and “interesting” intercepts (remember its his home ground),the Nuland telecon with the Ambassador was only a starter, to bolster their case. Stand by, the Russians have known the US intrigue all along, and seen it as an opportunity to take back Crimea. Interesting times ahead, a weak Obama beholden to the US deep state,is stuck in Fukuyama “End of History” mode, Russia (and China) are about to show their muscle to a bankrupt Great Satan.

  142. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 10:25 pm

    Interesting but perhaps little known fact Lebedev the owner of the Telegraph and Evening Standard owned a bank in Russia called the National Reserve Bank that made a lot of money buying up old Ukrainian debt to Russia on the cheap which shortly thereafter was repaid at a much higher amount.

  143. So, Mr. Murray (and excuse my directness)it is unheard of that a Western power’s secret services or armed forces in close cooperation with various organizations, have been involved in secret and illegal attempts to bring down governments around the world?
    And, it is unheard of, that for the purpose of bringing down the targeted government have used any means possible, including agents and bought politicians.
    Or, that they have used unfounded propaganda, “false flag” and “black operations” as in the popular jargon are called?
    Or you categorically exclude such possibilities in the present situation in Ukraine?

    That the West wanted Yanukovic to go, there is no doubt.That they caused him to go is simply untrue.

    How you, an experienced diplomat, can be so sure, when all the signs are there?
    And what kind of evidence would be sufficient for you to change your mind?
    A written confession? videos?

  144. ” what kind of evidence would be sufficient for you to change your mind? ”

    To start with any kind of evidence would be good; and just because you think they may have done it in the past doesn’t represent evidence that it may have happened on this occasion.

  145. Why is it, Murray, that you don’t advocate restoration of the elected government of Ukraine and the agreement between that government and the opposition calling for early elections and a unity government?

    But I suppose the answer is self-evident: since to take such a position would militate against the success of America’s multi-billion-dollar subversion of Ukraine. In fact, it would correspond exactly with Russia’s position, and the defeat of Russia is the real objective, Russia being a sovereign nation state to be demolished slice by slice as the New World Order and its decadent civilization drives East.

    Funny thing is, while the US managed to infiltrate Ukraine’s far-right-wing extremist faction comprising a mob of stick-wielding thugs with Nazi insignia, Russia apparently infiltrate the Ukrainian military, which seems to have been a better bet, and almost certainly a lot cheaper.

    So far the Nato-Nazi’s hopes of instigating a Ukrainian civil war seem not to be bearing fruit.

  146. “That the West wanted Yanukovic to go, there is no doubt. That they caused him to go is simply untrue. You have provided evidence of the former, and none of the latter.”

    Can’t argue. They wanted him to go because that gives an opportunity to change the government to a government more favourable.

    But the reporting here has all the bias of our government-owned media. It concentrates on rioting in the Ukraine where there was a pro-Russian government against which there was severe public dissent. It gave very little attention to the protests in Bosnia Herzegovina where the police have been accused of violence against demonstrators, and the presidential palace has been burned.

    http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/02/21/bosnia-and-herzegovina-investigate-police-violence-against-protesters

    Even today BBC midlands news, which made no mention of yesterday’s protest in support of Moazzam Begg, covered the story of the most decorated soldier, Henry Tandy, who it was claimed spared Hitler’s life. In its tiresome coverage of WWI stories (which is apparently going to go on until 2017 – I’m already sick of it because I believe it is Cameron’s ploy to glorify the great British empire and not simply a presentation of history) an historian has discovered that Tandy’s claim could not have been right. The story finished by pointing out what should be remembered is that Henry Tandy was the most-decorated soldier: not that the first victim of war is the truth.

  147. “Russia does however subscribe to the European and United Nations Conventions on Human Rights.”

    I don’t see how that would be relevant.

    Anyhow the ICC is only there to prosecute little countries in Africa. Prosecuting world powers is not in their remit. It’s never happened yet and it’s never going to.

  148. boiling frogs refers to this as a CFR video. that may be so. it certainly got a lot of assistance from MSM:

    BBC News – #BBCtrending: ‘I am a Ukrainian’ protest video goes viral

    28 Feb: Time Mag: Senator John McCain: “We Are All Ukrainians”
    http://swampland.time.com/2014/02/28/ukraine-john-mccain-putin-crimea/

    10 Feb: Le Monde: Bernard-Henri Levy : Nous sommes tous des Ukrainiens
    http://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2014/02/10/nous-sommes-tous-des-ukrainiens_4363410_3232.html

    2011 Guardian: Kim Willsher: Libya: Bernard-Henri Levy dismisses criticism for leading France to conflict
    Philosopher says criticism of dealings with Sarkozy of no importance compared with ‘avoiding a bloodbath in Benghazi’
    Unruffled as ever in his trademark Charvet white shirt, half-unbuttoned to reveal his tanned chest, the 62-year-old French philosopher is used to being in the line of fire – some of it, from Bosnia in the 1990s and Burundi in 2000, all too real and dangerous.
    But last week the censure was political: the self-appointed intellectual-at-large was under attack for reportedly persuading France’s president, Nicolas Sarkozy, to meet and recognise the rebels in Libya…
    All of which leaves this handsome dandy of a man almost totally indifferent. “Honestly, I don’t give a damn,” he says, as he drinks Ceylon tea in his favourite Left Bank haunt.

    *******“What has happened is so much more important than this derisory criticism. What is important in this affair is that the devoir d’ingérance [the right to violate the sovereignty of a country if human rights are being excessively violated] has been recognised. For the first time this concept was endorsed by the Arab League, by the African Union and by the UN security council. This is huge.”…
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/27/libya-bernard-henri-levy-france

  149. as for the toothpaste bomb alert – MSM showed no interest whatsoever in following up one it was established the individual was (surprise, surprise) a Ukrainian. not even sure this guy will go to trial. however, WSJ seems to have been designated to create the “official” and final narrative, no matter how utterly ludicrous. they put it on a blog & didn’t allow commentss of course:

    11 Feb – Wall St Journal BLOG: James Marson: Politics Behind Plane Hijacking, Ukrainian Opposition Says
    But the alleged wannabe hijacker had something else in mind, according to an acquaintance who saw him hours earlier: freeing Ukraine’s president from the clutches of Russia’s Vladimir Putin…
    But Ivan Varchenko, an opposition politician, said the alleged hijacker—named by Turkish security officials as Artem Kozlov, a Ukrainian in his forties from Kharkiv—had told him Friday that he wanted to fly to Sochi to “free Mr. Yanukovych.”
    “He said he had to save Yanukovych because Putin had taken him hostage and would use him to blackmail Ukraine,” said Mr. Varchenko, a deputy in Kharkiv’s regional council, in a telephone interview. “So he had to save Yanukovych to save Ukraine.”…
    Mr. Varchenko said Mr. Kozlov worked as a volunteer on the politician’s website for one day a week for the past 18 months. He said Mr. Kozlov had appeared sympathetic to the protesters’ cause, but on Friday wore a pro-Yanukovych ribbon from the 2010 presidential election campaign. That’s when he revealed his plan to rescue Mr. Yanukovych, Mr. Varchenko said…
    http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/2014/02/11/politics-behind-plane-hijacking-ukrainian-opposition-says/

    Marson & WSJ conveniently left out any reference to Varchenko’a political party!

    Dec 29 – Kiev Post: Car of Kharkiv EuroMaidan organizer burnt, fifth incident there in month
    The scorched Toyota that belongs to Kharkiv Oblast lawmaker and local EuroMaidan co-organizer Ivan Varchenko.
    https://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/car-of-kharkiv-euromaidan-organizer-burnt-fifth-incident-there-in-month-334404.html

  150. “So far the Nato-Nazi’s hopes of instigating a Ukrainian civil war seem not to be bearing fruit.”

    That’s the good news. The bad news is a splintering off, or division of territory occurring based on defections will still lead to civil war. Not that independent minded Ukrainians would object. Moscow wants the whole flounder (Dover sole) or none at all. JMO

  151. @Z – Anybody who has partaken of black jelly knows its sweetness can turn you into its slave. But do not underestimate the pink jelly of the former Soviet satellite states either, it can also turn anybody into a Russophobe !! Its very clear who the devils are, we have just seen an atrocious Ghouta false flag gassing involving using 400 dead children as props to start war. And we are being told that they are the good guys, that the person who stopped the devils in their tracks,Putin, is actually the bad guy, sheesh !! But its a sign of the proximity of the Last Day, the truth will be turned upside down, dershowitz/Jidge hellerstein logic now rule.

  152. Fred,

    I was suggesting the ICJ, not the ICC. Black Jelly, you still don’t get the point that Putin is against western intervention in other countries, but in favour of his own. And still neither you nor any of the other Putinistas has addressed the point on Chechnya or Dagestan.

  153. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 11:25 pm

    “But the reporting here has all the bias of our government-owned media. It concentrates on rioting in the Ukraine where there was a pro-Russian government against which there was severe public dissent. It gave very little attention to the protests in Bosnia Herzegovina where the police have been accused of violence against demonstrators, and the presidential palace has been burned.”
    _____________________

    Illogical and irrelevant.

    Bias in the sense that the media are writing a lot about Ukraine and little about BiH does not prove that the media are telling untruths about what happened/is happening in Ukraine.

    Furthermore : have you considered the possibility that ‘bias’ in the sense outlined above might be due to the fact that what is going on in Ukraine is a damn sight more important (and potentially dangerous)to the West than what is going on in BiH?

  154. “authorities in Kiev” – online news results for last 24 hours shows thousands of instances.

    “constitutional” – a handful of results – in the Russian press:

    2 Mar – ITAR-Tass: Russian diplomat: Ukraine situation should be brought back in constitutional framework
    “It is needed to return to the February 21 agreement and formation of a government of national unity,” Churkin said
    The situation in Ukraine should be brought back on political track and in constitutional framework, Russian Permanent Representative in the United Nations Organisation Vitaly Churkin said at a meeting of the U.N. Security Council on Saturday…
    He shared United Nations Deputy Secretary-General Jan Eliasson’s appeal to assess the situation in Ukraine keeping the head cool.
    “As (U.N. Deputy Secretary-General) Jan Eliasson said correctly it is needed to keep the head cool. It is needed to bring the situation back on political track and in constitutional framework. It is needed to return to the February 21 agreement and formation of a government of national unity,” Churkin said…
    http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/721629

    2 Mar – Pravda: Ukraine: The Law, the Putsch and the Imposter
    by Timothy Bancroft-Hinchey
    The irresponsibility of the western media calling Oleksandr Turchynov “Interim President” and referring to the “new Government” of Ukraine walks hand in hand with the notion that Governments can be deposed and instated by groups of armed thugs on the streets. Turchynov claims power, but what about the massive voting fraud in the Rada?
    Under the law, under the Constitution of Ukraine, Oleksandr Turchynov is not the Interim President, he is an imposter, the leader of a Putsch who has as much right to declare himself or to be declared Interim President as the author of this article, or anyone else for that matter. Why doesn’t Turchynov, the subject of a criminal investigation in the past, not declare himself Queen of Sheeba?…
    Under the Agreement signed between President Yanukovich and the members of the Opposition in February 2014, the forthcoming election was to be brought forward from 2015 to late 2014, so until then, the President of Ukraine is Viktor Yanukovich. Under the existing Constitution, in the absence of a Presidential exercise of duties, it is the Prime Minister who takes office as Interim President and the Presidency is ratified by the Constitutional Court.
    Mykola Azarov resigned the Premiership on January 28 2014, and was replaced as Prime Minister by Sergiy Arbuzov. In replacing the legitimate Prime Minister with Arseniy Yatsenyuk and in terminating the powers of the Constitutional Court judges, using a proxy voting system which has been outlawed during President Yanukovich’s Presidency, and in the absence of many of the Party of Regions deputies in the Rada, the action of proclaiming Turchynov as Interim President and of replacing Government Ministers has no legal basis whatsoever and is therefore void under Ukrainian law and as per the Ukrainian Constitution….
    And let us analyse the constitution of the Rada…
    And look at the picture showing members of the Rada holding the voting cards of other members. This explains the “vote”. Multiple voting for absentee members. Ladies and gentlemen, the photograph on the left denounces massive electoral fraud…
    Oleksandr Turchynov is not, legally, the Interim President of the Ukraine and his Government is not a Government – it is a clique of imposters. Any foreign powers greeting and recognizing them is guilty of criminal association. This is the law.
    http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/02-03-2014/126976-ukraine_putsch-0/

  155. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 11:28 pm

    CanSpecy

    “So far the Nato-Nazi’s hopes of instigating a Ukrainian civil war seem not to be bearing fruit.”
    ________________________

    In which case you should be pleased. But somehow you don’t sound it.

  156. Oddie

    Yes and no doubt James II is still King of England. The point is, it’s a Ukrainian affair. Whether the events were legal or not (and revolutions are by definition illegal) it does not anyone the right to invade the country.

    Fred,

    Yes, there is a lot written in favour of liberal intervention, by neo-cons like Yoo and Blairite acolytes like Cooper. But that neo-cons claim their “might is right” policy is legal, does not make it so. There is no solid body of case law than negates the principle of non-interference.

  157. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 11:36 pm

    “And still neither you nor any of the other Putinistas has addressed the point on Chechnya or Dagestan.”
    __________________

    And they never will. This is because they believe that the rebels in that part of the world are the paid agents of evil Western war-mongers and Russophobes. Therefore, they support their pin-up boy President rasPutin.

    I wonder if there is another country in the world where a former secret policeman (and no mean foot soldier at that)could become Head of State?

  158. Craig

    Larry Summers called the financial game that the US is playing with creditors, a financial balance of terror.

    There’s something similar going on with international law. The west uses and abuses it as it sees fit and there surely must be some provision in that context for countries like Russia to protect themselves.

    The west certainly orchestrated, encouraged and financed the protests and in the end Nuland got her man the job.

    I don’t think the fascists will necessarily take power but they were used to a purpose and will certainly have their pound of flesh.

    It’s far from being a people’s revolution even in terms of western Ukraine and most definitely not in terms of Ukraine as a whole.

  159. 2 Mar – Russia Today: Will be a war crime to use force against Ukraine civilians, Russia warns self-proclaimed president
    Russia, too, has voiced doubts over the legitimacy of the self-proclaimed government, citing the procedural violations the Ukrainian parliament committed in ousting Yanukovich, appointing a new cabinet and taking control of the country’s judiciary. Moscow is also concerned over reports that some MPs were forced to change their votes under threat of physical violence.
    Moscow on Saturday referred the issue to the Venice Commission of the Council of Europe, an advisory body with expertise in constitutional law. A similar request to monitor the legitimacy of the actions in Kiev was addressed to the Interparliamentary Assembly of the Commonwealth of Independent States, which brings together MPs from most former republics of the Soviet Union.
    http://rt.com/news/war-crime-ukraine-troops-425/

    3 months prior to Gaddafi’s assassination:

    July 2011 – AP: US recognizes Libyan rebels as Libyan government
    U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton says the Obama administration has decided to formally recognize Libya’s main opposition group as the country’s legitimate government. The move gives foes of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi a major financial and credibility boost…
    http://news.yahoo.com/us-recognizes-libyan-rebels-libyan-government-124658625.html

  160. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 11:42 pm

    Actually, I could answer my own question : NKVD agent President Boleslaw Bierut of Poland. In the good old days of the Little Father, strangely enough.

  161. “can someone please tell us what Sasha Billy was saying to the public prosecutor?”

    He was telling off the bureaucrat for being a lazy pen pusher who wasn’t properly investigating some case or other and that he would throw him to the crowd because he had an expensive looking watch as well.

  162. “I was suggesting the ICJ, not the ICC.”

    The ICJ only has jurisdiction if both parties agree to abide by their ruling. Their only means of enforcement is the UNSC where Russia has power of veto.

  163. @CM – Putin has just been awakened by his sisters rape just outside his doorstep, the perpetrators emboldened by some choice cookies distributed by a Victoria Nuland. And what you are saying is he should close the door and go back to sleep, its a United Nations affair.

  164. Habby

    If Nuland’s man got the job she wanted for him it does seem as though she had a hand in it.

  165. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 11:50 pm

    Speaking of President Boleslaw Bierut of Poland, he reportedly died in Russia, of heart failure, shortly after Krushchev’s secret speech denouncing Stalinism. The smart money was on grief that the speech had been made rather than grief at Stalin’s crimes.

    On a much baser level, I do hope none of the rasPutinistas here will go under in similar fashion once rasPtuin’s crimes will have been brought fully into the open.

  166. Non-fintererence

    2 Mar, 2014 - 11:55 pm

    Interesting divergence in perspective between ex UK diplomat here and ex US spook,

    http://consortiumnews.com/2014/03/01/ukraine-one-regime-change-too-many/

  167. ‘That appears to imply that Russia mostly owns the 25% pf Ukrainian debt which is in short-term bonds, doesn’t it. If correct, that’s very interesting and would make it appear that Russia is the bad boy.’

    Not really Habba; it suggests that Putin was keen to shore up the Yanukovich government, but not its successor. Sovereign debt is often acquired, or not acquired, by other sovereigns for reasons of realpolitik rather than ‘good business’- Osborne’s loan to Ireland a couple of years back is a good case in point.

    If the Irish government at the time had been strongly Anglophobic with, say, Sinn Fein holding several Cabinet posts, I doubt if Our Gideon would have been quite so ready to write a blank check for our next door neighbours.

  168. BrianFujisan

    3 Mar, 2014 - 12:08 am

    Black Jelly….

    Re the Chemical Attacks of East Ghouta,

    “From the moment when some families of abducted children contacted us to inform us that they recognized the children among those who are presented in the videos as victims of the Chemical Attacks of East Ghouta, we decided to examine the videos thoroughly. …

    Our first concern was the fate of the children we see in the footages. Those angels are always alone in the hands of adult males that seem to be elements of armed gangs. The children that trespassed remain without their families and unidentified all the way until they are wrapped in the white shrouds of the burial. Moreover our study highlights without any doubt that their little bodies were manipulated and disposed with theatrical arrangements to figure in the screening.

    If the studied footages were edited and published to exhibit pieces of evidence to accuse the Syrian State of perpetrating the chemical attacks on East Ghouta, our discoveries incriminate the editors and actors of forged facts through a lethal manipulation of unidentified children. …

    Thus we want to raise awareness toward the humanitarian case of this criminal use of children in the political propaganda of the East Ghouta Chemical Weapons Attack

    We present this work to distinguished Spiritual Leaders, Heads of State, Members of Parliament Humanitarian actors and to any person who has heart for truth and justice and seeks to due accountability for evil deeds.“

    Mother Agnes Mariam de La Croix,

    Mother Agnes has organised an international delegation led by Nobel Peace Laureate Mairead Maguire to come to Syria to see for themselves. She is one of the main organizers of Mussalaha (“Reconciliation”), a popular movement in Syria that mediates disputes and organizes ceasefires between opposing forces.

    and to think that a couple of wee dickheads – Owen Jones and Jeremy Scahill Opposed Mother Agnes speaking at a Stop the War conference.

    I think there is Some Good reasoning in this piece by Finian Cunningham

    US State Department official Victoria Nuland recently disclosed that Washington has “invested” some $5 billion in “promoting democracy” (that is, subversion and sedition) in Ukraine over the past two decades.
    The crisis came to a head when the embattled elected Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych fled suddenly from his office last week and went into exile in Russia. The Ukrainian parliament has since been taken over by his Western-backed opponents and a new interim government installed. Washington and Brussels swiftly moved to recognize this so-called new authority in Kiev, but Russia, with sound legal reasoning, has denounced the sacking of the elected Yanukovych and his government as a coup d’état.
    The turmoil in Ukraine has therefore all the hallmarks of a Washington-led regime-change operation. Needless to say that is a wholly criminal interference that makes a mockery of international law. The ultimate target of this meddling, as has been brazenly stated over many years since the early 1990s by Zbigniew Brzezinski and other US imperial planners, is the destabilization of Russia itself.
    Risibly, Washington’s new puppet president in Kiev, Oleksandr Turchynov, has now accused Russian forces of “seizing and capturing” the regional parliament and other government buildings in Ukraine’s southern Crimea. This complaint comes from political agitators who used violence and other crimes, including the murder of policemen, to seize government buildings in Kiev, culminating in the ousting of an elected president.
    In all this, Russian President Vladimir Putin has maintained a cagey silence. But the Russian leader knows only too well the depth of American deception and hypocrisy, and Washington’s covert agenda for regime change – an agenda which is being ruthlessly pursued against Russia’s Arab ally, Syria.
    For now, Moscow seems to be effecting an air of calm legality and playing by the rules, citing that its troops in Crimea are part of its bilateral military agreement with the Ukraine.
    But, off the record, the Americans know that what Putin is really saying is this: “You want to break the law, well, OK, we can break it too. Now back off!”
    Rules of sovereignty and international law are out the window, and it is Washington and its European puppets who threw all norms out that window with their incessant, illegal interference in Ukraine. Ukrainian territory, and its centuries of shared history, is a vital interest for Russia.
    Putin is entirely right to lay down an unspoken military marker to Washington over Ukraine, just like he did when the Americans tried to mess militarily with South Ossetia in 2008 through its NATO proxy, Georgia.
    American exceptionalism of arrogance and lawlessness does not understand the language of diplomacy. The only language it responds to is blunt force talking back to force.”

    The full Piece, and other related links @

    http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2014/03/02/putin-faces-down-obama-over-ukraine/#more-158747

  169. “And still neither you nor any of the other Putinistas has addressed the point on Chechnya or Dagestan.”
    ———————————————————————————

    Well I’m not a Putinista, but I’ll have a go.
    Firstly I’m not sure there is a majority in favour of secession in those two states (correct me if I’m wrong).
    Secondly, I’m not sure they would necessarily want to secede into an Islamic state under Sharia law.
    Thirdly, if they want to secede, why do they not push politically for a referendum instead of indulging in a violent insurgency?

  170. the most vital & telling pic of the Ukraine saga:

    Map of Russian gas supply pipelines via Ukraine
    http://en.ria.ru/images/15520/63/155206369.jpg

  171. “Yes, there is a lot written in favour of liberal intervention, by neo-cons like Yoo and Blairite acolytes like Cooper. But that neo-cons claim their “might is right” policy is legal, does not make it so. There is no solid body of case law than negates the principle of non-interference.”

    I don’t think legality comes into it.

    Russia will protect their interests legal or illegal, just like America does.

  172. just as we cyncially exploited concern for women’s rights in the build-up to attacking Afghanistan, it has been “concern” for gay rights in the case of Russia/Ukraine. BBC World Sce has broadcast the following more than once to date &, in Australia, which carries BBC on ABC News Radio, we have probably heard it four times already.

    anonymous russian gay who has to enter US via Mexico/Rio Grande & lots of other nonsense about how many more gays will seek asylum in the future. never explains what the actual Russian law is about. plenty of the narcissistic, spooky Amb Michael McFaul, who resigned in Feb. plus a Russian woman from New York who just happens to have an NBC-Sochi-reporter friend who she tweets in Sochi:

    BBC “The World”: Boston Calling – Russian Departures
    The story of a gay Russian man who fears persecution at home and heads to the US seeking asylum – and a new life. Also on the programme, the out-going US ambassador to Russia reminisces about his time in Moscow and the active social media presence he nurtured while serving there. We also explore the Russian aversion to putting ice cubes in drinking glasses…
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p01sqlxd/Boston_Calling_Russian_Departures/

    the program was co-produced by the following:

    The World is a US-based international news and analysis program co-produced by the BBC, PRI, and WGBH. Hosted by Marco Werman
    http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/public-radio-international/pris-the-world-latest-edition

    McFaul adulation at the Moscow Times – matches the BBC program above:

    11 Feb – Moscow Times: Farewell, Ambassador McFaul
    by Michael Bohm
    McFaul used his charm and “Twitter diplomacy” to win over tens of thousands of Russians. This led the Kremlin to carry out a smear and harassment campaign against him…
    In a farewell interview with Kommersant, McFaul said one of his greatest failures as ambassador was his inability to destroy the myth that the U.S. wants to organize a revolution in Russia…
    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/farewell-ambassador-mcfaul/494528.html

  173. Herbie:

    “I haven’t made any claim about the legitimacy of the Ukrainian parliamentary decision.

    But, both yourself and Angrysoba have claimed it as legitimate.

    So, can you please answer the questions put to you:

    1. Were members threatened with or in fear of violence?

    2. Were all members who wished to vote in attendance.

    3. Was the president ousted lawfully and in accordance with the constitution?”

    Herbie, I don’t believe I have argued for the legitimacy of Yanukovych’s ousting. The argument I made was that it was conducted by Ukrainians which is very much the point I made before that Ukraine is deciding its future and not the “western oligarchs” who you say scuppered a peaceful agreement with violence. You still haven’t been able to substantiate this argument and you’ve been clutching at straws ever since. Everything aimed at defending Putin’s actions of invading a sovereign nation.

    I haven’t answered your questions because they are irrelevant and aimed not at clarity but at creating confusion which is the usual purpose of JAQing off.

  174. Russia’s Permanent Representative in the United Nations Organisation Vitaly Churkin said at a meeting of the U.N. Security Council on Saturday:

    It is needed to bring the situation back on political track and in constitutional framework. It is needed to return to the February 21 agreement and formation of a government of national unity.

    But as noted above, CM is not interested in, and therefore won’t talk about, a return to a constitutional framework. Instead he blathers on about the victimhood of our side, hoping like Hell that the Russians can be incited to kill a some Ukrainians thereby consolidating a fraudulent moral case for regime change in Ukraine, if not another $trillion-dollar-war.

    This is, in fact, nothing more than a Neo-Con/Neo-Nazi propaganda site, which is no doubt why the long absent (thankfully) AngrySobarbarian of the Crass Sunstein school of blogging has returned to give support at a difficult time.

    Vivre the Global Empire for the greater profits of international capital, and fuck the EU.

  175. Craig: “neither you nor any of the other Putinistas has addressed the point on Chechnya or Dagestan.”

    Did you not see Richard’s Post;

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/putin-and-international-law/#comment-443645

    Perhaps you are jumping the gun, and falling for what could be just Putin’s positioning gambit, as although he has sought & obtained authorization for military intervention in the, but it has happened yet, and maybe it won’t, afterall he has many options & time is one of them;

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/02/vladimir_putin_can_destabilize_ukraine_the_russian_president_doesn_t_need.html

  176. 2 Mar – Voice of Russia: US, EU ‘pyromaniacs’ surprised at fire they started in Ukraine – expert
    The United States and European Union should have anticipated the consequences of their dubious decision to throw support behind the Ukrainian regime change, a French geopolitical analyst has told Russian media.
    “What we are witnessing now is the easily predictable aftermath of the US and EU’s irresponsible decision to back the overthrow of a legally-elected Ukrainian president at the time when Russia was busy with the Sochi Olympic Games,” Emerique Chopard said in an interview with Interfax.
    “I have been warning about a possible escalation since the very beginning of the Ukrainian unrest, which was provoked by outside actors,” he added…
    Cabinet pyromaniacs [in Western countries], who wanted to play with fire without giving a second thought to the consequences of their decision to pit one part of Ukraine against the other, are of course upset over the arrival of Russian ‘firefighters,’” Chopard said.
    “But it’s these pyromaniacs that will have to bear the brunt of colossal historic responsibility for leaving Ukraine a weaker state.”
    Emerique Chopard has called on international community to look for a way out of this crisis without the help from United States…
    http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_02/US-EU-pyromaniacs-surprised-at-fire-they-started-in-Ukraine-expert-8741/

  177. Sept 2013: Economist: The other Yalta conference
    A global elite gathering in the Crimea
    The future of Ukraine, a country of 48m people, and of Europe was being decided in real time…
    The guestbook read like a Who’s Who of Europe. Mario Monti and Gerhard Schroder, a former prime minister of Italy and a former chancellor of Germany, along with Dominique Strauss-Kahn, former managing director of the IMF, were lamenting the lack of visionary and inspiring European leaders who could re-ignite the passion for a united Europe. Egemen Bagis, Turkey’s chief negotiator with the EU, passionately lectured them on the benefits of fiscal discipline.
    Lawrence Summers, a former American treasury secretary, and Robert Zoellick, an ex-head of the World Bank, were reflecting on the imbalances of the world economy. David Petraeus, a retired general and former head of the CIA, and Bill Richardson, a former energy secretary, talked about the shale-gas revolution that is changing the balance of power between Russia and the West. Mr Pinchuk himself was having a ball, moderating a session between Tony Blair and Bill Clinton…
    Yet the real focus of the conference was Ukraine itself. It is close to signing an association and free-trade agreements with the EU at a summit in Vilnius in November. The EU is keener than ever on the agreement. Russia, on the other hand, considers this a red line. Crossing it could spell a trade war…
    Russia is fast losing Ukraine through its own arrogance and bullying. The contrast between the way Ukraine is treated by Russia and the West was only too obvious in Yalta. Whereas America was represented by a dozen high-level officials, including the former secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, who gave a speech, Russia did not even bother to send its ambassador. Its only representative was Sergei Glaziev, a nationalist-minded economic advisor to Mr Putin, whose job was to warn Ukraine against a “suicidal” step…
    http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2013/09/other-yalta-conference

    i’m surprised they sent anyone at all to that “den of thieves”.

  178. Peter Hitchens: ‘Russia is sick of being humiliated and pushed around by ignorant outsiders’: MoS columnist PETER HITCHENS says Putin DOES have a right to intervene
    We have been rubbing Russia up the wrong way for nearly 25 years.
    It is hard to see why…
    Senior American, German and EU figures have gone to Kiev to egg on the anti-Russian crowds. Imagine how you would feel if Russia’s Foreign Minister turned up at SNP rallies in Edinburgh, backing Scottish independence…
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2571139/Russia-sick-humiliated-pushed-ignorant-outsiders-MoS-columnist-PETER-HITCHENS-says-Putin-DOES-right-intervene.html

  179. Oddie, I think your map of the pipelines said it all. Must get to bed. Interesting debate.

  180. This is, in fact, nothing more than a Neo-Con/Neo-Nazi propaganda site, which is no doubt why the long absent (thankfully) AngrySobarbarian of the Crass Sunstein school of blogging has returned to give support at a difficult time.

    I feel so proud! Although not as proud as when I first looked and assumed you had adjectivized my name, in a similar manner to how Robert Fisk’s name got verbed. Speaking of which, it turns out that the Stop the War Coalition have remarkably decided not to oppose Russia’s invasion of Ukraine but rather to explain to us plebs why Russia’s invasion of a sovereign country is very, very different to an American invasion.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/blighty/2014/03/britain-and-ukraine

    Lindsey German seems to be railing at the lizard men who are my actual employers, rather than Cass Susstein, who I have never met, not even once, and who has never paid me any money, not one shekel.

    And, of course, she is parroting the Kremlin line throughout. It would be just as easy to accuse her of being on Putin’s payroll but as I have no evidence for that I won’t make such an accusation. I’ll just assume the most likely interpretation which is that she’s ideologically blinkered.

    However, here’s an interesting petition which was written by actual experts on Ukraine’s far-right in which they argue:

    “An increasing number of lay assessments of the Ukrainian protest movement, to one degree or another, misrepresents the role, salience and impact of Ukraine’s far right within the protest movement. Numerous reports allege that the pro-European movement is being infiltrated, driven or taken over by radically ethnocentrist groups of the lunatic fringe. Some presentations create the misleading impression that ultra-nationalist actors and ideas are at the core or helm of the Ukrainian protests. Graphic pictures, juicy quotes, sweeping comparisons and dark historical references are in high demand. They are combined with a disproportionate consideration of one particularly visible, yet politically minor segment within the confusing mosaic that is formed by the hundreds of thousands of protesters with their different motivations, backgrounds and aims.

    Both the violent and non-violent resistance in Kyiv includes representatives from all political camps as well as non-ideological persons who may have problems locating themselves politically. Not only the peaceful protesters, but also those using sticks, stones and even Molotov Cocktails, in their physical confrontation with police special units and government-directed thugs, constitute a broad movement that is not centralized. Most protesters only turned violent in response to increasing police ferocity and the radicalization of Yanukovych’s regime. The demonstrators include liberals and conservatives, socialists and libertarians, nationalists and cosmopolitans, Christians, non-Christians and atheists.”

    https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/to-journalists-commentators-and-analysts-writing-on-the-ukrainian-protest-movement-euromaidan-kyiv-s-euromaidan-is-a-liberationist-and-not-extremist-mass-action-of-civic-disobedience

  181. Oddie, who the Hell is Emerique Chopard and why should anyone consider his opinion to be worth anything? However, it is pretty obvious that Russian news agencies are going to repeat any opinion that sounds good to them.

  182. Interesting map which highlights the historical background complexities of Ukrainian national identity, and the questions it raises for self determination of all parts of the Ukraine;

    http://orientalreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/map.jpg

    (In a area of the World with long historical memories, a Russian might argue that which was annexed TO can also be annexed FROM !)

  183. Here’s another who-theHell-is-this for Angry;

    http://www.swans.com/library/art20/ga332.html

  184. Yes, I certainly have little idea who Gilles d’Aymery, although I looked him up on Google.

    I fail to see the relevance of his piece when it comes to Putin’s deployment of troops to Ukraine. In fact, the arguments in favour of Putin’s actions have tended to avoid any relevant facts whatsoever. Is there any reason for that?

    (In a area of the World with long historical memories, a Russian might argue that which was annexed TO can also be annexed FROM !)

    And they would be wrong, if they assumed that such annexing would be legal. Of course, you could still be correct. A military invasion and conquest of territory is always possible, but I would have thought you would be against that type of thing. What is it about Mother Russia that makes her imperialism so appealing?

  185. This may yet turn into the worst nightmare for the US/Nato/Nazis: Russia has agreed to Merkel’s proposal for a Ukraine ‘fact-finding’ mission.

    But, hey, we don’t want no facts, we just regime change, IMF loans, austerity and an unobstructed entry of international capital to exploit Ukraine’s resources and cheap labor.

    But if Germany and Russia can sort out the problem in Ukraine between themselves, what need is there for NATO, the UN and the New World Ordure?

    Germany’s been occupied for 69 years now, but with a good working relationship with Russia, what’s the US gonna do when Germany asks them to go fuck themselves, I mean, leave?

    May be the Brits would like an end to American occupation too — in fact wouldn’t all of Europe?

  186. CanSpeccy, when people have disagreements over a football game you often hear someone say, “I don’t know which game you were watching.” In this case, I am not sure what world you are living in, but in this one, Germany and the UK are not occupied.

    Also, from your own link:

    “The chancellor called upon [Putin] again to respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity,” deputy government spokesperson Georg Streiter said in a statement following the phone call between the two leaders.

    Now, do you agree with Merkel that Putin should have and should now respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity?

  187. POCC mo thóin

    3 Mar, 2014 - 5:24 am

    So it falls to lugubrious horse-faced gigolo John Kerry to fulminate in comical impotence. Eastern Ukraine is going to pull a Slovenia and secede at their leisure (they’ve already pulled off the Slovenes’ amazing disappearing-military trick, with ОМРП and вы́мпел all over em like a cheap suit, just in case.) The EU winds up with the giant mutant hedgehogs of the exclusion zone plus blonde Africa with the Springtime-for-Hitler kulak babies in charge.

    The FSB guys are cryin laffin.

  188. Very sad to have to say this since I have been an admirer for some time. But poor Craig appears to have lost his former powers of critical reasoning. I know that he has had medical problems that were heart-related, but while the loss of such capacity can come about due to oxygen deficiency, it is more commonly associated with specific brain tumours. If I were a close friend I would encourage him to undergo a CATscan quite soon. Wishing him all the best but no longer listening to his current nonsense.

  189. Black jelly

    3 Mar, 2014 - 6:46 am

    Coming back to more mundane matters, I saw GOD make a max 147 break in winning the Welsh Open Snooker last night, with His Left Hand no less!! And Ronnie Sullivan doesnt look one bit like the “chosen” deluded khazars, who routinely risk papilloma to snare beautiful rare bits of Welsh shikse!

  190. Clarence: Very sad to have to say this since I have been an admirer for some time. But poor Craig appears to have lost his former powers of critical reasoning. I know that he has had medical problems that were heart-related, but while the loss of such capacity can come about due to oxygen deficiency, it is more commonly associated with specific brain tumours. If I were a close friend I would encourage him to undergo a CATscan quite soon. Wishing him all the best but no longer listening to his current nonsense.

    Wow! So, the only possible reason for somebody disagreeing with Putin is that they must have a problem with their brain? That’s a pretty chilling throwback to the old Soviet days when dissidents were actually sent to mental hospitals:

    In the Soviet Union, a systematic political abuse of psychiatry took place[1] and was based on the interpretation of political dissent as a psychiatric problem.[2]
    During the leadership of General Secretary Leonid Brezhnev, psychiatry was used as a tool to eliminate political opponents (“dissidents”) who openly expressed beliefs that contradicted official dogma.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union

  191. Resident Dissident

    3 Mar, 2014 - 7:00 am

    Why if Russia has done no wrong in Russia do its troops their hide their insignia? It is the little things that give your own guilt away.

  192. CanSpeccy 3.05am hits the nail on the head. Germany is probably the only European country with insight and nascent power in the US-UK-NATO block sufficient to scupper its immediate designs. The intro to the ‘Price Obama is about to pay’ article I linked to a day or two ago makes the point well.

    The bickering over trivia in this thread really is depressing – but of course that is exactly what Cass Sunstein and the latest revelations from GCHQ advocate as the best means of dealing with internet dissent – something for the genuine truth-seekers here to ponder.

    With a few notable exceptions, nobody seems to think the big picture has any relevance whatsoever. Whereas the context is that of a relentlessly expansionist US-UK-NATO block pressurunf and constantly demonising Russia and using any and all means to expand Eastwards, trashing any agreements that get in the way of that project on the way – most notably the ABM Treaty and assurances to Gorbachev and his successors about incorporation of ex-Soviet Republics into NATO.

    A really am gob-smacked that CM appears oblivious to what is going on here. Has he been made an offer (subliminally even) he can’t refuse?

  193. Bad link again

    Try this

  194. Angrysoba,

    And what, precisely, does the old Soviet regime have to do with today’s propoganda-inspired nonsense, or poor Craig’s loss of touch? Also, anyone who quotes Wikipedia as a source surely has problems of their own.

  195. Clarence has a riddle for us:

    “what, precisely, does the old Soviet regime have to do with today’s propoganda-inspired nonsense”

    Because it emerges, cobwebbed and dusty, from the Kremlin, and has the support of all kinds of western “intellectuals” of the “pacifist” persuasion?

  196. Wikispooks,

    Your analysis of CM’s conversion may be correct, but I doubt it. He seems an honourable man. But whether his conversion is the result of nature or of some CIA-inspired (Castro-like) manipulation is not beyond conjecture.

  197. Black jelly

    3 Mar, 2014 - 7:51 am

    @Angrysoba

    Sorry either you are with the Ghouta gassing false flag (Kohn,Obama,Rifkind,Hague,Fabius,ec) crowd or you are with us (Putin,Assad,Lavrov,etc). One side has to be the devil and the other the good guys. If you are a dershowitz we completely understand but remember there will be no hiding behind the gharkad then.

  198. Black Jelly,

    You seem to be posting some weird and (not so-)cryptic anti-semitic remarks (if I understand your references to “dershowitz”, “gharkad” and “khazars” correctly). Suffice to say, that is quite enough to thoroughly put me off your “side”.

  199. Black jelly

    3 Mar, 2014 - 8:08 am

    @Angrysoba – Oh so bibi satanyahu gave us a “thoroughly” false 8200 intercept about the 400 gassed Alawite kids at Ghouta, with that hellerstein logic you must be a dershowitz then ! And on his side.

  200. The MSM have moved on so no worries. Today it’s all about the Oscars and what the dresses looked like, and the Pistorius trial.

    There was one banner saying that two oligarchs have been appointed as governors by the so called ‘interim government’ in Kiev. A reports showing Hague wandering around the Maidan barricades. He laid some flowers.

  201. Angrysoba,

    Ah. So now I understand your perspecive (at long last). We are now supporting “sides”. Please grow up and remove yourself from this discussion among adult people.

  202. Clarence:

    “So now I understand your perspecive (at long last). We are now supporting “sides”.”

    I was responding to Black Jelly’s post here:

    “Sorry either you are with the Ghouta gassing false flag (Kohn,Obama,Rifkind,Hague,Fabius,ec) crowd or you are with us (Putin,Assad,Lavrov,etc). One side has to be the devil and the other the good guys.”

    So any problem you have with invoking “sides” can be brought up with Black Jelly, if it is the principle that you object to.

  203. John Kerry – Ukraine – Meet The Press. John Kerry Denounces Russian ….
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otTj6Droz9I#t=25

    11mins if you can stick it.

    Published on 2 Mar 2014

    john kerry ukraine russia meet the press mtp. John Kerry denounced the Russian movement of troops into Ukraine Sunday as “an act of aggression” and accused President Vladimir Putin of “possibly trying to annex Crimea.”

    “He’s going to lose on the international stage, Russia is going to lose, the Russian people are going to lose, and he’s going to lose all of the glow that came out of the Olympics, his $60 billion extravaganza,” Kerry said on NBC’s Meet the Press.

    He warned that Russia will suffer a loss of trade and investment if Putin does not reverse course.

    Russia has “major investment and trade needs” which are bound to suffer if Russian troops don’t leave Ukraine, he said. “There’s a unified view by all of the foreign ministers I talked with yesterday — all of the G-8 and more — that they’re simply going to isolate Russia; that they’re not going to engage with Russia in a normal business-as-usual manner…. The ruble is already going down and feeling the impact of this,” he said.

  204. I find myself agreeing with canspeccy and wikispooks, this is not a NATO affair, for more than one reason, NATO failed to have more than one plan, its always war. This is because NATO has become a coffeeshop for weapons manufactuirers trying out their new toys about to be sold to all that can pay.

    Germany has been involved in Russia and eastern Europe from the word go, meaning after the cold war ended they were giving ample credits to help Russia and other states, they keep a rapport at all times good and bad.

    I had to hold on to my muesli this morning on hearing Hague this morning talking about the values of sovereignty, what a wretching experience, I had to switch the radio off, does he really think that his waffle has any relevance?

    Not a single bullet fired in the Crimea makes me feel as if there is a start for negotiations and if Germany is prepared to do the talking, so be it.
    enjoy your day as I will enjoy todays showers in Gorleston.

  205. The Guardian are referring to those who have taken power in Kiev as a ‘fledgling government’. Hope that they have grown all their necessary feathers.

    This is the reality.

    http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bhqp-cQCYAAqSCH.jpg

  206. Angrysoba @8.00am

    For once I agree with you; anyone who can insert this onto a thread ostensibly about the Ukraine crisis has a very warped worldview-

    ‘Ronnie Sullivan doesnt look one bit like the “chosen” deluded khazars, who routinely risk papilloma to snare beautiful rare bits of Welsh shikse!’

  207. @Clarence 7:48 – all

    For the avoidance of doubt and to clarify. I fully accept that CM is a honourable
    man and did not mean to imply otherwise. I accept that my ‘Godfather’ allusion about ‘being made an offer that cannot be refused’ is too open to the wrong interpretation and thus perhaps inappropriate for a post on its target’s own blog. However, what I mean – and tried to emphasise with the ‘subliminal’ qualification – is that there are lines that NONE of us can cross; either because of a crass overt threat per the ‘Godfather’, but more often as a function of the cognitive dissonance that doing so would generate. I believe that Craig’s former exalted position in the Establishment hierarchy renders him peculiarly susceptible to the syndrome in matters impinging on ‘patriotism’, that’s all. The irony is that his experience also gives his opinions a unique and seductive authority.

    All of that renders him more susceptible than most to certain kinds of ever-so-subtle and destructive pressure – of the kind for example that our illustrious Tavistock Institute is master.

  208. Wikispooks,

    Sound thoughts. I agree. But whether the stress of such conflicts has caused him to revert or whether it has induced a stress-induced dementia or even a more demonsrable physical disease has yet to be seen. Whatever, it is very sad for such a brave man.

  209. Wikispooks

    Or I might, on the other hand, just be opposed to military invasions. I don’t seem to have the patriotism blockage when I oppose British military invasions. So it is improbable I have developed one when I oppose Russian military invasions.

    I opposed:
    The invasion of Iraq
    The invasion of Libya
    The invasion of Georgia
    The occupation of Afghanistan
    US Drone Attacks
    Israeli attacks on Gaza
    Israeli attacks on Lebanon
    Russian military occupation in Dagestan and Chechnya
    The proposed western attack on Syria
    The invasion of Ukraine

    It seems to me that there is a pretty obvious common thread here.

    The people who have lost their marbles are those who support the use of military invasion, as long as it is by Putin. My marbles are all still there and working in a consistent way.

    Consistency seems to shock some people.

  210. As Mike Whitney wrote:

    [..]
    In order to topple Yanukovych, the US had to tacitly support fanatical groups of neo-Nazi thugs and anti-Semites. And, even though “Interim Ukrainian President Oleksander Tuchynov has pledged to do everything in his power to protect the country’s Jewish community”; reports on the ground are not so encouraging. Here’s an excerpt from a statement by Natalia Vitrenko, of The Progressive Socialist Party of Ukraine that suggests the situation is much worse than what is being reported in the news:

    “Across the country… People are being beaten and stoned, while undesirable members of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine are subject to mass intimidation and local officials see their families and children targeted by death threats if they do not support the installation of this new political power. The new Ukrainian authorities are massively burning the offices of political parties they do not like, and have publicly announced the threat of criminal prosecution and prohibition of political parties and public organizations that do not share the ideology and goals of the new regime.” (“USA and EU Are Erecting a Nazi Regime on Ukrainian Territory”, Natalia Vitrenko)

    Earlier in the week, Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported that a Ukranian synagogue had been firebombed although the “Molotov cocktails struck the synagogue’s exterior stone walls and caused little damage”.

    Another article in Haaretz referred to recent developments as “the new dilemma for Jews in Ukraine”. Here’s an excerpt from the article:

    “The greatest worry now is not the uptick in anti-Semitic incidents but the major presence of ultra-nationalist movements, especially the prominence of the Svoboda party and Pravy Sektor (right sector) members among the demonstrators. Many of them are calling their political opponents “Zhids” and flying flags with neo-Nazi symbols. There have also been reports, from reliable sources, of these movements distributing freshly translated editions of Mein Kampf and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in Independence Square.”

    /..
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/28/obamas-dumbest-plan-yet/

    Some headlines on Ha’aretz below -

    Jewish Agency: Emergency assistance to Ukrainian Jews could be increased
    Airlift ‘meanwhile’ not under consideration

    Ukrainian synagogue reportedly firebombed in first violence against… (Haaretz | Jewish World)

    Ukrainian Jews in Israel try to make sense of it all (Haaretz | Jewish World)

    Crisis over Crimea steals thunder from AIPAC conference

    Netanyahu in Washington: It takes three to dance the Mideast tango
    Prime Minister to meet Kerry, Obama and Biden on Monday, and is scheduled to address the AIPAC conference on Tuesday.

  211. Mary

    That there are neo-Nazis in Ukraine is not in dispute. There are neo-Nazis across the former Soviet Union, including Russia, which is surprising given history. You should ask Uzbeks about racist attacks in Russia. As far as I am aware, there are no neo-Nazis in the current government in Kiev. I think that the attempt to paint the current government in Kiev as neo-Nazi is intellectually lazy in a way I would not have expected of you. Your excellent ability critically to see through the distortions of western mainstream media needs also to be applied to Russian sources.

  212. Wikileaks,

    Craig’s latest response appears to confirm the diagnosis. Before the daggers come out, I am not a medical doctor but a PhD in biomedical scientist (Cantab). However I have checked my suspicions with 2 separate clinical colleagues – one with a special interest in mental health – and both agree that such a sudden switch in attitude and loss of critical reasoning represents a physiological crisis. As to what caused it I have no idea, but you maybe right.

  213. Craig, I apologise for the hasty allusion but trust it is adequately explained above. We have had quite a long – if arms length – association and I know you to be a principled and honorable man – your refusal of State honors is testament to both.

    However, my points stand.

    You are indeed opposed to military invasion – as am I – but to characterise what Russia has done – so far – in Crimea as ‘invasion’ is a stretch to put it at its mildest. IMHO this is very far from a comparison of equals – OTOH OTO sort of thing. Russia is fighting for its survival and it is very late in the day. As you yourself said a while back, Ukraine is hardly an old historic nation state and its incorporation of the Crimea was the product of obscure manoeuvrings by a Ukrainian Soviet PM – Kruschev. Its population are making their feelings about Russian military help clear enough for even the BBC to report, so just what IS all the fuss about? Rhetorical question that because it really ought to be as clear as the nose on your face.

    VoR reports there have been close to 700,000 ethnic Russians crossing to Russia in the past month so, regardless of the allegedly benign intent of the new Kiev rulers towards its Russian population (somewhat undermined by their first legislative act to remove the status of the Russian language), they are clearly not SEEN as benign by those affected.

    Your even-handedness would be commendable were we talking about protagonists of approximately equal strength here; but we are not.

    Also, I am NOT a ‘Putinista’. Just as I regard the 3 stooges (Stalin Roosevelt and Churchill) as at least the equal of Hitler in their Machiavellian evil, so I regard Putin as being on a par with most Western leaders in terms of peronal morality – the difference in the latter case being that, in the West, said leaders are so in-your-face obviously the ridiculous puppet mouthpieces of others whose identities are ALWAYS hidden.

    This whole thing is Far and away bigger than the ‘democratic aspirations’ of Ukrainians (who appear even more gullible than our own Sheeple). What depresses me so much is that, with all your high-level experience of Foreign affairs, you appear very reluctant (to put it at its politest) to acknowledge that particular elephant in the room.

    Best wishes anyway.

  214. Beautifully put, Wikispooks. I would slightly disagree with you on Putin who – despite his shady spook past – appears to be on the side of Christian morality and , to the chagrin of some. despises such abominations as “Pussy Riots”.

    But in this case the obvious and well-documented Western interference that promulgated this insurrection is so blatant that for CM to miss it is somewhat pathological.

  215. Craig: “Consistency seems to shock some people”

    Goodness, you still can’t see that you are comparing apples to pears; are you seriously putting on par the attack on Iraq with the Russian position on the Ukraine !? Are you seriously claiming that Russia attempts to contra the separatists/terrorists in Dagestan and Chechnya is comparable to Israeli attacks on Lebanon, rather than more comparable to the Troubles, or the attempts to counter ETA separatists, or even the War on Terror ?

    Self-determination is indeed a human right, and in an ideal perfect utopian World, every miniscule region would have the ability to function as a totally independent & self-sufficient entity, yet the stark reality, as illustrated by the Ukraine itself, is that some for purely factual &/or practical reasons some cannot exist on their own merits. This is even without going into differentiating between pre-mediated pro-active military aggression, and military aggression that is a reaction to an emerging perceived threat on ones very border, rather than thousands of miles away, or even declaring a whole continent as a sphere of influence, as the US treats South America.

  216. EVERYTHING is part of the cause n effect. And John “Botox” Kerry had better not dream of a Hillary like “we came we saw and Yanukovic died” gloat, the FSB has much more than that Nuland/Ambassador telecon up its sleeve. CM refuses to recognise the Russian response is simply an effect of the cause – the ouster of a LEGITIMATELY democratically elected Yanukovic. I simply refuse to doubt CM’s integrity and concede he may be seeing something us ordinary mortals are unable to comprehend?!

    But one thing is for sure, it was the demise of international order that started earlier World Wars. And we are at the brink – its not only Fuck EU it was Fuck UN when Rassmussen was dropping bombs on Gaddafy under the guise of an NFZ. Putin had then complained “who gave them the right to kill Gaddafy”, now its Fuck UN time from the Bear who cannot be expected to lie back and think of England now, especially as the rape was carried out in his backyard.

    Practically the issue boils down to – is there a countervailing force that can break ranks from the malevolent orbit of the Beast? It was CM Trodos doubts of the satanyahu 8200 intercept plus Ed Milliband in the Commons that prevented a Syrian adventure based on what now transpires to have been a false flag at Ghouta. This time we have a CM knobbled by pink jelly (or worse) and an Ed Milliband already under fire not to intervene. Its ominous.

  217. Sofia Kibo Noh

    3 Mar, 2014 - 10:27 am

    “You just don’t invade another country on phony pretexts in order to assert your interests…..It would represent a profound interference in matters that must be determined by the Ukrainian people.” John Kerry. And they say Americans don’t do irony!

    How can spending $5billion arming, training, supplying and paying wages to ultra-right nationalists be the path to a less corrupt democracy?

    Maybe one of his aides should tell him about the 13 million Russians who died last time round after the Bush family and other US financial elites funded the last great ultra-right take-over in Europe.

    Here’s context for the $5 billion claim:

    http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/february/09/victoria-nulands-ukraine-gate-deceptions.aspx

    Here’s one “on the spot” perspective, from Ukrainian author Lada Ray:

    https://futuristrendcast.wordpress.com/2014/02/25/what-is-really-happening-in-ukraine-part-4-nazi-coup-succeeds/

  218. Some hastily-scribbled comments.

    1) Since November 2013, the Ukraine has been about to default on its debts. Default would cause banks to write off some of their assets and as a result, some banks might become insolvent. I don’t have to spell out what that means.

    2) Turkey too seems on the brink of default.

    3) All governments are corrupt. All governments serve private interests first. The aim of government is profit.

    4) Default means large profits for some. So do bailouts. So does meltdown.

    5) Russian capital has considerable influence in Germany. Everyone’s pissing themselves about Victoria Nuland’s ‘Fuck the EU’ comment; few are commenting on it intelligently. Few are even asking the basic questions: who released the tape? why now? It’s kind of assumed, without actually saying so, that it was the KGB, working independently of both the US and Frankfurt. Hey, I thought some people saw themselves as wanting to ‘look behind the news’? :-)

    6) Having played Frankfurt (‘the EU’) along almost to the point of accepting their ‘bailout’, Yanukovych chose to accept Russia’s instead. In this epoch of ‘wraparound’ news, a lot of people have forgotten just how extraordinary those events of November 2013 were.

    Then two months later, Russia seems as though the most it might get is the Crimea – which it needs for military reasons – and possibly some other territory but I wouldn’t bet on it.

    Let’s name what we appear to have got, which is a Russian overplay followed by a withdrawal and a realistic consolidation. Then we can ask what we think the reality is and who might be doing what and why.

    7) Several dozen people got shot in the street in Kiev. But the powers that be, whether in New York or Frankfurt or London or Moscow don’t give a shit about that. You and I might do. They don’t. What works, works. One minute they’ll pay PR girls to carry banners. The next minute they’ll pay the neo-Nazis to shoot you. Do you think they give a fuck?

    Massacres like that are just one technique of the art of manipulation, of psychological warfare, of ‘politics’.

    Breathless BBC arseholes may talk about everything being ‘unclear’ and ‘out of control’. The BBC’s foreign news section works closely with MI6 and always fucking has done.

    In fact, events may well have been orchestrated. I repeat: city-centre massacres are just one technique of the art of manipulation, of psychological warfare, of ‘politics’. Those who order them to be carried out have studied the possible effects of their actions. From Paris to Mexico City, from Derry/Londonderry to Algiers… If it was Prague, windows might well have been involved.

    8) A lot’s been written about the CIA. Everyone knows that they, helped by their British bum-lickers with their offshore financial network, have been behind the ‘colour revolutions’ and ‘regime changes’ – all these terminologies for using psychological warfare to Enron the shit out of several countries.

    (Give people stockphrases. That was in Edward Bernays in 1928. Want to think for yourself? You have to recognise that shit and treat it with the contempt it deserves.)

    As well as the CIA, you have to factor in the KGB too. (The modern terminology is FSB/SVR, but I’ll use ‘KGB’.) For all the western propaganda against Russia, not many people are actually doing this. Not many people understand about the KGB.

    The KGB has a big share in the Russian ‘opposition’. Repeat: the KGB has a big share in the Russian ‘opposition’. It also knows its way around ‘international finance’.

    And it has no fucking problem cooperating with the CIA, or Frankfurt, or both, when it wants to.

    9) Democracy is an ideology developed as part and parcel of the bourgeoisie’s use of its mass media. Case study: Britain: as newspapers spread out to more and more strata of the population, those strata one by one ‘got the vote’.

    10) I am wondering whether the Russian ‘overplay’ was made with a view to speeding things up, so that in the event of a global financial collapse (which is inevitable, the only question being ‘how soon?’), they’ll keep the Crimea and their naval access to the Black Sea.

    There’ll be a referendum in Crimea at the end of THIS MONTH. (OK, I realise events may overtake it, but still.) That’s bloody fast. Take a look at Scotland, where the ‘independence party’ has been in ‘office’ for years and hasn’t even held its referendum yet. (Admittedly, the 2014 Commonwealth Games are a big factor.)

    11) These days you can’t even have a punch-up on a demo without half the people present getting their mobile phones out so that the footage can be published within a short space of time on the CIA’s ‘Facebook’ website or ‘Youtube’. (If that doesn’t mean that such a form of activity is largely under control, what does it mean? In 1968 in London at the Grosvenor Square demonstration, which many people hoped would set off a ‘May 1968′ in Britain, people carrying cameras got thumped – and fucking rightly too.)

    But that ‘global immediacy’ doesn’t say it all, not by a long chalk. You can still get a massacre in a European capital city and nobody who talks publicly has really got any proof of who was behind it. That means secret service involvement, which, if you are paying attention, you’d know anyway. The question is how to assign proportions of involvement among the different players.

    I can tell you – if you think that what happened in Kiev was simply that the police suddenly killed loads of people because government leaders told them to, and then you got a natural response, you’re bloody deluded. Study Budapest 1956, where the secret service shot at the police to start things off. Live bullets, dead cops. All that stuff is old hat in the Lubyanka, at Langley, and at Vauxhall Cross, even if it might be amazingly arcane knowledge in Blogistan. So don’t underestimate the KGB. They can pretty much do anything the CIA can do. (Including having warm relations with figures in the British money-laundering network.) Neither organisation has any ideology except what’s convenient. Both serve money-grabbing interests first and foremost. Did I say that before? Very probably both organisations have had stakes in the ‘colour revolutions’ and will also have stakes in the ‘colour revolutions with blood on the streets’ that may soon become all the rage.

  219. Well done, N_. About as near to the facts of the matter as these comments ever get. Agree.

  220. “We need €5bn by Friday or we go bust, Kiev tells EU”

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4016232.ece

  221. Angrysoba: ‘I was responding to Black Jelly’s post here:’

    I wouldn’t bother if I were you. Saves time and fury.

  222. What a berk. Wait for the next 86 years Mr Hague (except you won’t be around}.

    His facile statement – ‘The turmoil in Ukraine is the “biggest crisis” to face Europe in the 21st Century, British Foreign Secretary William Hague has warned.

    He said Russia controlled the Crimea, in violation of Ukraine’s sovereignty, and warned of “significant costs” if its troops did not withdraw.’

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26415789

    Confirmation of which century we’re in seems to be the theme from our leaders.

    “This is an act of aggression that is completely trumped up in terms of its pretext. It’s really 19th century behaviour in the 21st century.” Kerry – Meet The Press

  223. Yes, Hague looks a complete prat.

    Macky, yes I believe there are a great many parallels between Russian occupation of Dagestan and Chechnya and Israeli occupation of Palestine.

    Russia was avowedly an Empire. Unlike the British Empire the Russian conquests were geographically contiguous, but they were no less colonised peoples for that. The conquest of the Caucasus by Russia was precisely at the same time as the expansion of the British Empire in Asia. Thankfully almost all of ours has been given back. The Russians, not so much.

    I agree there is a parallel with Chechnya, Dagestan and Ireland – but 1916.

  224. Having to be represented abroad by Hague is one of the most nauseating consequences of our electoral system.

    Hague tries to imitate, but only succeeds in parodying, Churchill. Rory Bremner emulates Hague with much more success here -

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIpgmYkGV9s

    …or is it the man himself? Very hard to tell.

  225. That’s quite an impressive ‘hasty-scribble’. I can see nothing substantive to take issue with either. Just a suggested qualification:

    I agree that it all boils down to money (material wealth) but the accumulation of wealth depends on control of resources – both human and natural. whilst it is the aim of the US-UK-NATO-block to globalise finance under their own monolithic control – the “World Community” as it is currently propagandised – they are not quite there yet and there remain VERY wealthy – and thus powerful – interests that either dissent, seek alternative control for themselves or are only half-hearted in their commitment/allegiance. Those interest are best characterised by reference to age-old cultural-religious allegiances. In the case of Ukraine, it is ancient Latin (Catholic) versus Orthodox rivalry with Judaic interests in a centuries-old role analogous to that or Rasputin to the Tsarist Court in BOTH traditions – they are the real experts at strirring the pot – or ‘leading every revolution against us’ as Theodore Hertzl put it.

    The globalisers today are a witches brew of occult (in its purist sense) Protestant-Catholic-Masonic-Judaic (with the Judaic assuming an ever-more dominant role). They are ranged in an unholy alliance against Orthodox-Muslim with China, India and the far orient wild cards to be dealt with later. The brew is particularly potent given the history of the peoples making up the Ukraine and it is precisely those divisions that are being fully exploited by the lever-pullers that really do understand them.

    As N_ rightly says, NONE of them could give a toss about humanitarian matters except in so far as they may be useful in herding Sheeple opinion.

    “Shoot a few protesters under a false flag?? – sure thing look what we did through out <a href="http://www.wikispooks.com/wiki/Operation_Gladio"Operation Gladio. That was in the heart of Western Europe over 20 a year span and we got clean away with it. Who the hell knows or cares about the 85 we blew to pieces at Bologna in 1980 now? – But that 9-11 thingy, whoaaah, that of course was the wicked Muslims – for now anyway.”

    Hey ho – we are ALL being led by our snotty opinionated noses because its just tooooo horrid to see things as they really are.

  226. “21st century”? Tell that to the Crimean Tatars! What happened to the Foreign Office’s ‘generalists’? :-)

    As for Ireland, this is from the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921:

    7. The Government of the Irish Free State shall afford to His Majesty’s Imperial Forces
    (a) In the time of peace such harbour and other facilities as are indicated in the Annex hereto[N_ note: the 'Treaty Ports'], or such other facilities as may from time to time be agreed between the British Government and the Government of the Irish Free State; and
    (b) In time of war or of strained relations with a Foreign Power such harbour and other facilities as the British Government may require for the purposes of such defence as aforesaid.”

  227. And talking of snotty opinionated noses, try this for size

    It will surprise some here to learn that I not only attended that 1977 Conservative Party conference as a delegate and prospective parliamentary candidate, but I was also listed to speak in the same debate as trendy, Clean-cut, long-hared young Willie. He got called; I didn’t – otherwise maybe things would have turned out different eh?

    Thought I’d throw that little vignette in as an illustration of just how much one’s political understanding of the world – and one’s own country’s role in it – can change when freed from the need to climb the greasy pole and do some solid, honest agenda-free research – I have been lucky; that opportunity does not present itself to many.

    I haven’t bought a newspaper in 10 years; neither have I voted in the last 3 general elections (a principled abstention having far more weight than allowing oneself to be herded by the fantasy-tales of the party manifestos and spokesmen) – but I know more of where real power in this country lies than young Willie (on present evidence) will ever know. If that sounds arrogant I’m sorry but young Willie’s comprehension of these things seems to be stuck at his 1977 level – Like Blair, and all successful politicians, he does know who he must please and how though, the poor sod.

  228. @Craig, Are you sure you listed the Israeli occupation of Palestine in your previous Post ?

    Don’t really for the time right now for a discussion about the historic facts & unique conditions that pertain & characterize different Empires, but have you asked yourself why you automatically tried to compared some events with some farfetched others, when more logically similar examples were available ?

    For somebody who has had actual real immersion in realpolitik, your take does at best seem naïve, & perhaps even rather gullible in some respects.

  229. I’d thought that these Ukrainian neo-nazis and fascists hadn’t got any positions in this new Kiev proxy govt, but I was wrong:

    “members of Svoboda and the Right Sector occupy key positions in the areas of Defense, Law Enforcement, Education and Economic Affairs.”

    “Andriy Parubiy [right] co-founder of the Neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (subsequently renamed Svoboda) was appointed Secretary of the National Security and National Defense Committee (RNBOU).”

    “Dmytro Yarosh, leader of the Right Sector delegation in the parliament, has been appointed Parubiy’s deputy Secretary of the RNBOU.”

    “The Neo Nazi party also controls the judicial process with the appointment of Oleh Makhnitsky of the Svoboda party to the position of prosecutor-general of Ukraine”

    “Tetyana Chernovol, portrayed in the Western press as a crusading investigative journalist without reference to her past involvement in the anti-Semitic UNA-UNSO, was named chair of the government’s anti-corruption committee”

    “Dmytro Bulatov, known for his alleged kidnapping by police, but also with UNA-UNSO connections, was appointed minister of youth and sports.”

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554

  230. doug scorgie

    3 Mar, 2014 - 1:02 pm

    Resident Dissident
    2 Mar, 2014 – 7:27 pm

    “You should be aware that Putin and the crowd around him have been long time admirers of the politics and economics of the Pinochet regime.”

    Not true ResDis.

    “I’m a supporter of Pinochet, not as a person but as a politician who produced results for his country. He was not corrupt. He supported his team of economists for 10 years.”

    That was the opinion of billionaire Petr Olegovich Aven a right wing neoliberal fascist of the Democratic Choice of Russia which is now the Union of Right Forces. He hates Putin.

    It’s a good job that Putin didn’t listen to him.

    Two other supporters of Pinochet of course were Ronald Reagan and Mrs Thatcher.

  231. “Very sad to have to say this since I have been an admirer for some time. But poor Craig appears to have lost his former powers of critical reasoning. I know that he has had medical problems that were heart-related, but while the loss of such capacity can come about due to oxygen deficiency, it is more commonly associated with specific brain tumours. If I were a close friend I would encourage him to undergo a CATscan quite soon. Wishing him all the best but no longer listening to his current nonsense.”

    You may wish to have your eyes and ears tested as well as your sense of common decency. Much as I disagree with Craig on many things I can appreciate the consistency and the quality of his thinking.

  232. Black jelly

    3 Mar, 2014 - 1:34 pm

    The Wolf Blitzers and Anderson Coopers are both allied in their God denial and have no fear of the Fire. We are being strangled by their combined forces of falsehood, a LEGITIMATELY elected Government has been overthrown and we have our very own truth warriors like CM now on the side of the perpetrators.

    Its really very very simple, if a well-rehearsed chorus of userers,pickpockets,militant hershey highwaymen,911 and Ghouta false flaggers,cookie monsters,drone-assassins,spin merchants,renditioners,NSA peeping toms,etc say Putin is the bad guy, then he MUST be a good guy.

    Sorry Craig but you might just have had one wee dram too many ! Or is it the pink jelly?

  233. “It’s a good job that Putin didn’t listen to him.”

    A 13% flat tax rate and cuts to pension and health spending suggest otherwise – to say nothing of his treatment of political opponents.

    Might I recommend a trip to the doctors to deal with the scales on your eyes.

  234. I should add that if Aven really hates Putin he has kept that quiet – I very much doubt that he would have prospered quite so much or have been appointed by the government to various bodies if he was expressing hatred of Putin. Democratic Choice supported Putin btw.

  235. What can’t speak can’t lie. Video of the re-taking of Kharkiv from the neo-fascists (as they are being called. My understanding is that Donetsk has also been taken back. Neither of these stories have made the BBC yet.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZksrnB16LD4

  236. Neither of these stories “has” made the BBC yet.

  237. Borders were changed in Kosovo, turning a province of Serbia into a quasi independent State!Not recognised by many.But the West,NATO ,US do !Big US base no less.
    The same bunch that against all international law invaded Iraq, Afghanistan,and bombed Libya back to the stoneage. On a daily basis invade the air space of independent nations and bomb their citizens,and they are calling the kettle black ??
    What Russia has done has been totally expected.The West promised that NATO would not brush Russia’s borders, and we know what’s going on.
    It’s a game of chicken and the west will back away.This was yet another crudely designed attempt to realign Ukraine to the West’s liking.
    Ukraine would be better off having an angry bear to protect them rather than being the front line of a NATO with no regard for them.I do believe they’ve been in this position before.

  238. Correction:

    I think these are not actually in cabinet posts:

    “Andriy Volodymyrovych Parubiy (Ukrainian: Андрій Володимирович Парубій) is a Ukrainian politician[2] and the Secretary of the National Security and Defence Council of Ukraine, appointed after leading the anti-government riots in the 2014 Ukrainian revolution.[3] His deputy is Right Sector leader Dmytro Yarosh.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andriy_Parubiy

    Still worrying nonetheless.

  239. doug scorgie

    3 Mar, 2014 - 4:31 pm

    Nevermind
    3 Mar, 2014 – 8:24 am

    “Not a single bullet fired in the Crimea makes me feel as if there is a start for negotiations and if Germany is prepared to do the talking, so be it.”

    I hope your right Nevermind but watch out for a “false-flag” operation that can be blamed on Russia.

  240. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    3 Mar, 2014 - 4:39 pm

    ESLO

    ““Very sad to have to say this since I have been an admirer for some time. But poor Craig appears to have lost his former powers of critical reasoning. I know that he has had medical problems that were heart-related, but while the loss of such capacity can come about due to oxygen deficiency, it is more commonly associated with specific brain tumours. If I were a close friend I would encourage him to undergo a CATscan quite soon. Wishing him all the best but no longer listening to his current nonsense.”

    You may wish to have your eyes and ears tested as well as your sense of common decency. Much as I disagree with Craig on many things I can appreciate the consistency and the quality of his thinking.”
    _______________________

    Agree with ESLO.

    You may remember that when Mary called on Craig to post about Ukraine I introduced a note of caution onto the blog, saying something to the effect of ‘be careful what you ask for because it may well not turn out as you expected and so disappoint you’.

    And so indeed it came to pass. Some regulars came out in more or less civil dissent with Craig, other usually very prolific posters (Ba’al Zevul, Mr Scourgie, our young poetess, etc… mostly took care to keep their heads beneath the parapet, and yet others, unable to control their indignation and range, let fly with the insults: these ranged from ‘Craig has lost his marbles’ to ‘Craig has revealed his true neo-con nature and is part of the deep state, with a particularly shameful detour via ‘have you had a dram too much (at 13h34 above).

    If memory serves, it’s eerily similar – but on a grander scale – to the reactions when Craig came out with the statement that he was pro European Union. It was like the reactions of the Eminent guests when Sir Archibald Clark Kerr let off one of his renowned farts at a Washington cocktail party.

    Press on regardless, Craig. Most of your ‘guests’ don’t deserve you.

  241. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    3 Mar, 2014 - 4:51 pm

    DoNNyDarKo writes

    “Borders were changed in Kosovo, turning a province of Serbia into a quasi independent State!Not recognised by many.”
    _______________________

    Another good example of a half-truth, the poster no doubt relying on readers’natural trust (or perhaps laziness).

    In fact, as of now, Kosova is recognised by 108 out of the 193 member states of the United Nations.

    Most people would call that many.

    *****************

    “Life is getting better, life is getting merrier!” (J. Stalin, ca. 1932)

  242. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    3 Mar, 2014 - 4:55 pm

    “Ukraine would be better off having an angry bear to protect them rather than being the front line of a NATO with no regard for them.I do believe they’ve been in this position before.”
    _______________________

    They have indeed! Problem is

    - the Angry Bear didn’t make much of a fist of protecting them in 1941..

    - ..but made up for it in 1944 when the NKVD and the political commissars came back.

  243. habby says:

    “In fact, as of now, Kosova is recognised by 108 out of the 193 member states of the United Nations.

    Most people would call that many.”

    You weren’t saying that many more than that was many when it was Palestine.

    Hypocrite!

  244. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    3 Mar, 2014 - 5:12 pm

    From N_ ‘s interminable musings:

    “In 1968 in London at the Grosvenor Square demonstration, which many people hoped would set off a ‘May 1968′ in Britain, people carrying cameras got thumped – and fucking rightly too.)”
    ________________________

    It’s interesting how people reveal themselves through the small, apparently insignificant details, isn’t it.

    1/. I happened to be there, but saw no cameras other than press ones. Were you there? Perhaps the chappie up the lamp post with a bird’s eye view of the proceedings?

    2/. Who was doing the alleged thumping – demonstrators or police?

    3/. Why do you think this alleged thumping occurred?

    4/. The recent incident where a newspaper seller was pushed by a policeman and died after he fell was caught on camera: this enabled a prosecution of said policeman. Do you think the fellow who did the filming should have been thumped, and if so, why?

    Looking forward to your rapid and reasoned response.

    Thanks!

  245. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    3 Mar, 2014 - 5:15 pm

    Herbie

    “You weren’t saying that many more than that was many when it was Palestine.

    Hypocrite!”
    ___________________

    I believe I was asking how many states recognised Palestine and how many of them had diplomatic representation in Palestine (and where). Not quite what you claim I said.

    But feel free to rebut, together with the post in which I supposedly said that.

  246. Craig,

    “I think the ousting of Yanukovich was of doubtful legality. However if it were completely illegal, it still does not make it legal for another country to invade.”

    So – if not by force – how otherwise does one remove an illegally installed “Government” -given the practicalities of the situation ?

    CB

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