What 2,000 People Look Like

by craig on June 29, 2014 1:01 pm in Uncategorized


Various unionist nutters have tried to claim that the outrageous BBC/MOD propaganda lie of 35,000 people at Armed Forces Day in Stirling is true. This picture was taken at 1.30pm when the crowd was largest.

There is a lot to give scale in this photo. Look at the vehicles. Look at the marquees.

Look at the marquee closest to the top on the left. There is a van parked right in front of it. From that van, we can measure that it is a sixty foot by forty foot marquee.

Using simple measurement techniques, it is easy to see that the entire crowd could fit into three – or at most four – of those marquees. Perspective is on the side of crowd overestimate as the marquee is further away from the camera than any of the crowd.

If you observe rationally, and look at the clues as to scale, it is not difficult to work it out. That the MOD can claim 35,000 people is a lie by a factor of about twenty times. That the BBC repeats this state propaganda is worse than anything I have seen recently on Russia Today or Chinese state CCTV.

And here is the crowd by the climax – the Red Arrows fly past at 5pm. I have seen more people at a garden fete.


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  1. What is the source of your photographs? I was there yesterday and while I would say that the crowd did not reach 35,000 there were certainly many thousands watching the Red Arrows, more than your photograph would suggest.

  2. Hi Craig, Stuart Campbell of Wings over Scotland was watching the TV feed from the BBC about the AFD and apparently they never mentioned the word “Bannockburn” once, only referring to “other events” in Stirling.

    He tweeted the BBC’s James Cook about it but never got a reply as far as I know.


    Not only have the BBC issued some dodgy numbers they also totally blanked the Bannockburn event on Saturday.

    Stuart’s also got a blog post about it here:

  3. Anon


    The man who took them commented on the last thread and posted the link. I fear you had been drinking.

  4. So pleased to see the BBC getting caned again for its atrocious and inaccurate reporting of trivial events like this and its non-reporting of the genocide in Eastern Ukraine and the Austerity march on which 50,000 people showed their distaste for harsh government measures. We are paying a television licence fee that cannot be questioned because the BBC will not even respond to questions against its policy. We need to get rid of the board. Here journalist Owen Jones very articulately takes the BBC to task. 6,000 people have already complained.


    The BEEB is no more than a mouthpiece of a bereft government and a failed economy.

  5. LOL. Best malt whisky we hope.

  6. Whilst I greatly welcome the complete and utter disproving of sate propaganda displayed by this picture, it is unfair to suggest that RT.com exaggerates headcounts to any real extent just because it is funded from Russia. As they are trying to become an independent alternative to BBC, CNN, Aljazeera, CNN, etc. RT would have to be very careful to ensure that any figures they provide are verifiable.

    The UK seems to have already become an insular state… e.g. Cameron has been hammered by the rest of the world’s media regarding his stance over Juncker, but he got a favourable press in the UK. His party has figured that most UK citizens don’t care what the rest of the world thinks… and they may be right?

  7. Nice destruction of Anon’s, post, through publishing that second photograph. Why deny the truth, Anon, why not learn from it!

  8. Now you know why the BBC have been tightly cropping their photos (or maybe the MOD did it for them given out with their 35,000 att press release).

  9. Another important world news story that the BBC is ignoring:


  10. Another example of the BBC cropping photographs to deceive.

  11. Strange, the last post was infested with unionist trolls claiming the crowds were vast. Where have they all gone.

  12. Oh what a tangled web we weave
    When first we practice to deceive. – Sir Walter Scott (Marmion, 1808)

  13. Well, Anon, CNN got away with it with those “images of celebrating Palestinians” after 9/11, so the BBC obviously thought they could get away with it as well. And of course they always do, because most people are completely unaware about “news management” (actually, lies and deception).

    How do they expect societies to evolve and get better when they resort to such methods…

  14. Peacewisher

    “How do they expect societies to evolve and get better when they resort to such methods”.

    I think that’s exactly what the 1% are striving to prevent.

  15. Maybe they’ve run away to tell their bosses, Craig… who’ll then have to “manage it further” (more lies and deception?) Well, that’s my experience of public sector “clever young things” who get found out. I’m sure we can all remember “the dodgy dossier”.

  16. LOL, Craig. However did Blair get promoted so far beyond his capability and get us into this mess? One assumes that the ptb could see what sort of society he was about to create when his policies started to bite, from 1998 on… I’m fascinated by the NLP theory, but surely a potential leader would have been screened for “unhingedness” beforehand.

  17. Excellent (not recent…) Guardian article looking at what happens to governments that ignore protest:


  18. It’s a shame that the turnout was so low. Still, there’s more support for the Armed Forces than the pictures and turnout suggest. Maybe if it hadn’t been politisiced more folk would have turned up.

  19. Most sensible comment yet, Jake.

  20. I have given up watching or reading any of the corporate media as I find these an exercise in delivering mushroom treatment; keeping the punters in the dark and throwing manure at them.

    However, as I was channel surfing, whilst eating my breakfast I stumbled on the aunty’s embittered stenographers debating Iraq; with a bitter tone delivering the news about the “second hand, old, (1970s old) Russian jets delivered to the Iraqis” (paraphrasing) had me in stitches. It is evident that the plans have not panned out for Iraq and Putin (I am aware of the congenital hatred of Russians) is pissing on the parade of the relevant “masters of the universe” with glee, by sending the jets to Maliki.

    However not to digress too much, the auntie and her corporate gaggle of stenographers inflating the numbers and faking the photos ought to be a given by now, and it should come as no surprise.

  21. Maybe, Jake, but don’t you agree that they shouldn’t have blatantly lied about it? This looks particularly despicable after what happened (or according to the BBC didn’t happen) at Parliament Square last Saturday.

  22. With 35,000 ppl, half of whom probably have cameras, there should/will be literally thousands of photos on facebook and other sites that verify the true numbers. From the above pics, it’s hard to see how 20x the apparent number (1600 odd) would be comfortably accomodated.

  23. Read both your articles on the AFD and think you got it spot on.

    Many who attended the Bannockburn Day left later and dropped by the AFD but the 35,000 they boast about is pie in the sky .

    As an ex soldier i am angry that the servicemen were used as a poltical tool for the NO vote. I heard they were also handing out BT leaflets to the crowd. . Against the rules you know.Not that it will make much difference as most soldiers i know ( a fair few too) state loudly and proudly the will vote YES.

    The BBC, MSM and Westminster have abused and lied to the people of Scotland since day one of this referendum and will pay a price when independent Scotland closes down the whole shop.

    Pravda would be proud of the Beeb.

    Lets see if they mention the protests this afternoon at PQ about their bias and spin for pro union drivel.I won’t hold my breath.

  24. @Fedup: It is worse than “mushroom management”, it is blatant lying. You know, the sort of thing Tony Blair unbelievably got away with back in 2002 & 2003, and I’m suddenly very hopeful and optimistic for the future as I realise that millions (including Armed Forces) haven’t forgotten those lies.

  25. Mr Murray,

    I don’t have the same predilection for alcohol as you. So the drink was untouched, including the malt whiskey.

  26. LOL, LOL, LOL

    The story about the Japanese setting fire to himself is now no. 1 in BBC “most popular”news stories even though there isn’t any link to this from their website.


  27. Anon I believe ‘whiskey’ is the American and Irish usage. ‘Whisky’ comes from Scotland.

    But I am no expert on alcohol.

  28. What you fail to understand Craig is that those marquees were filled with thousands dignitaries playing sardines.

  29. I don’t know about the rest of the “unionist trolls” but I’ve been painting the spare room. Just stopped for a cuppa.

    Hint:- When you’re in a hole, stop digging. This has clearly got you rattled and devoting two threads to it is beginning to smack of desperation. Perspective makes it extremely hard to estimate dimensions and trying to scale everything from the tiny image of a van which is parked obliquely to the marquee simply isn’t going to work.

  30. ‘As an ex soldier i am angry that the servicemen were used as a poltical tool for the NO vote. I heard they were also handing out BT leaflets to the crowd.’

    If that’s verified, R Duncan, it is contemptible.

    The relocation of AFD from Edinburgh to Stirling this year, the blatant over estimates of the numbers attending (confirmed by the photos here), and the Beeb’s treatment of the event yesterday, certainly smells like state sponsored stage management in support of the No campaign.

    If the promised in/out referendum on the EU is actually held in 2017, I’ve no doubt the PWB will use the same tactics again in support of a vote for the status quo.


    29 Jun, 2014 - 3:41 pm

    Well, I for one, am glad this controversy seems settled.

  32. The propaganda machine seems to be in the hole, Kempe. Yes, they do need to change their approach to news management. The BBC have obviously got their own internal subversives (see “most popular”) and even without Tony Benn some of their number do have some sense of balanced reporting (and they also pay a license fee…)

  33. “The relocation of AFD from Edinburgh to Stirling this year, the blatant over estimates of the numbers attending (confirmed by the photos here), and the Beeb’s treatment of the event yesterday, certainly smells like state sponsored stage management in support of the No campaign.”

    First of all there was no relocation of AFD from Edinburgh to Stirling. The main parade is held in a different town every year. There are events in both Edinburgh and Stirling every year.

    Second, the photos confirm nothing except Craig’s desperation and fanaticism. The authoritative sources, who were there and are in a position to know, are saying the event was a great success.

    “I think Stirling has put on an absolutely brilliant show. The crowds are much bigger than expected.” David Cameron

    “It’s fantastic that so many people came out to recognise those who serve.” Alex Salmond.

    “I am delighted that Armed Forces Day has been such a success ” Angus Robertson

  34. Lying about numbers at marches, events etc is standard practice for the BBC. They’ve been at that for as long as I can remember, but there’s always room for doubt. It’s subjective, not an exact science blah blah. We’re well used to their antics.

    What you need to do is catch them out in blatant lying, rewriting, inventing and so on. Then you’ll really know them for what they are.

    Craig has caught them out before:


    Here’s RT’s documentary account:


    When someone lies to you repeatedly it’s best to assume they’re a liar. You don’t continually give them the benefit of the doubt.

    You treat their every utterance with the disregard and contempt it deserves.

  35. @Ben:

    Clearly it isn’t settled!


    29 Jun, 2014 - 4:21 pm

    Peacewisher; I can wish, can’t I?

  37. Peacewisher

    they do need to change their approach to news management

    Never mind “news management” the owners ought to change their approach to governance. Discounting those brainless morons whom support the current status quo along with the lickspittles (shills; paid or idealogical) blighting the debate on this board and elsewhere, whom collectively will not have so much as a pot to piss in. The rest of us are awakening, and are asking; we bought the dream, we bought the ticket, we paid the price, but where are our promised goodies? (Ponzi scheme victims calling in their claim)

    The fact is the asymmetrical welfare benefits of rich take all and become super rich while the rest of us are told; you can suck our thumbs, will not do. The only method of control of the great unwashed, has been for years; you too can be rich; someday, somewhere and do what you wish, as the hopes of the great riches have been dashed and there is nothing but thumbs left to suck on there is no control. Hence the infantile last resort to lies and deceit to keep the gravy train rolling just for a while longer, but the writing is on the wall!

  38. @Fedup: They can get rich. There’s X-factor, The Voice, and the National Lottery.

    On a serious note… they still don’t get it. There’ll be water cannon in every town and they’ll still not get it. They are rich. They are superior. They are the 1%.

    I never used to like Russell Brand, but I have to admire his current boldness.

  39. What happened with the lies yesterday is the direct opposite of what the Met do in London. At many protests I have attended, they have always halved the numbers attending cf what the organisers have reported.

    They have a special department to do it. Add 1, subtract 2, add 1 subtract 3….

  40. There is either more than one Anon here on Anon has changed avatar/e-mail address/IP address.

    Jemand’s has changed here too since writing today on the Stinking Hypocrisy thread.

    Q. Are these people being cloned?

  41. Has anyone considered the average weight of the attendees? A crowd of fat people may appear more numerous than it actually is.
    Also, people carrying their hat instead of wearing it may be counted twice in an aerial photos.

  42. I don’t watch tv, so I have no idea how the BBC has treated the protest outside its own headquarters in Glasgow today.

    From the photographs I see on Twitter, there was a very sizable crowd.


  43. Get a load of this, everyone:

    “Hundreds protest over BBC bias”


    Yes, this is on the BBC website, and there is a link from the main website. I take back what I said, unless there were/are more than hundreds. The 1% won’t be happy though…

  44. Quote from BBC Scotland re the protest:

    “Our coverage of the referendum story is fair and impartial in line with the editorial guidelines.”

  45. Above Story now BBC “most popular”, after Dolly Parton…

  46. It’s on News Sniffer. Watch to see if and how they alter the script.

    Scottish independence: Hundreds protest over ‘BBC bias’ 0 bbc 32 minutes ago

    The page no will advance as the time passes.

  47. Kempe

    Aah, I see. It’s not a marquee it’s the Wembley Arena. My mistake, sorry.

  48. Half time, Craig?

  49. A Node, 29 Jun, 2014 – 4:48 pm
    Hahahahaha :)

  50. A Node

    Indeed. Re that Robben penalty shout, I think his track record as a known diver cost Holland there.


    29 Jun, 2014 - 6:51 pm

    Big flop by Mexico for penalty kick===GOOOOOOOALLLLLLLL

  52. Scottish independence: Hundreds protest over ‘BBC bias’
    Posted by The Medialens Editors on June 29, 2014, 5:59 pm

    About as brief a report as you can get, but there’s always enough room for the usual robotic line from the BBC:

    “Our coverage of the referendum story is fair and impartial in line with the editorial guidelines.”

    No mention of Prof Robertson’s careful study blowing that out of the water, of course.



  53. Fred: Is that your personal opinion as a resident of Sutherland ? Extensive knowledge of goings on in Edinburgh and Stirling ? Do you know where both cities are ? Are they close to Waverlie ? That is never 35,000 people ! Craig isn’t desperate, he is correct.And he was right about you too.

  54. “The authoritative sources, who were there and are in a position to know, are saying the event was a great success.”

    Ah Fred you are a perfect example of a model citizen. We in the Governing classes salute you. You can have an extra egg one day next week.

    Big Brother.

  55. Was anyone else angered by this from the BBC?


    Pictures and coverage of the three Israeli teenagers and no pictures of the ‘hundreds of Palestinians’also kidnapped?

    Media Lens (and Craig) seems to be the only people highlighting this!!

  56. It should be very worrisome for the Government if the Ministry in charge of Defence cannot count.This probably means we have over estimated the strength of the Taliban for years.

  57. Second on the Scotland page.

    Scottish independence: Clash over borrowing claims
    The Treasury claims that Scottish government plans to increase borrowing under independence would be incompatible with retaining the pound

    The first is about a MAA critical report on the lack of collision warning systems on Tornado jets which caused two to collide and the loss of three lives and the severe injury to a fourth airman. The MoD has been holding the report back. The collision occurred in July 2012. What about the relatives Mr Hammond? Have a care.

  58. Just for the record here and further to the Medialens editors’ previous comment, John Hilley on the protest about BBC Scotland’s reporting.

    Re: Scottish independence: Hundreds protest over ‘BBC bias’
    Posted by John Hilley on June 29, 2014, 7:50 pm, in reply to “Scottish independence: Hundreds protest over ‘BBC bias'”

    A really great turnout at the BBC protest, with, I’d say, 1500 at least, contrary to their spurious headline.

    Professor Robertson gave a fine speech, not a word of it covered by the BBC. He made a particular point about the constant repetition of fear-laden stories/quotes, the deference shown to No business bodies like the Weir Group (who sold the weapon pipe sections to Saddam) and offered many interesting thoughts about the insidious connections between senior BBC Scotland figures and the No political cast.

    He also specifically criticised all those notable media researchers/academics who have failed to come and help defend his work.

    All in all, a great, colourful and positive protest, signifying the widening disaffection of Yes voters towards the BBC. While recognising the visual support being shown by some staff from behind the BBC windows, much talk today of a necessary purging of this propagandist organisation if indy comes about.


  59. “Fred: Is that your personal opinion as a resident of Sutherland ? Extensive knowledge of goings on in Edinburgh and Stirling ? Do you know where both cities are ? Are they close to Waverlie ? That is never 35,000 people ! Craig isn’t desperate, he is correct.And he was right about you too.”

    I have never pretended knowledge of anything. The only people in any position to be able to have a reasonable estimate of the numbers are the organisers. I merely posted links to what those with the data said. Craig however gave an authoritative “1,600” figure, not about 1,500, not between one and two thousand, 1,600. He hasn’t however stated how he knows this.

    Same with the Bannockburn event. I have no way of knowing how many people were there, I must just rely on reports of what the organisers said, 10,000, not the 20,000 stated by Craig.

  60. Cameron in true Blair style, moves on from Scottish independence to mix with Hollywood and the ‘stars’ tomorrow night. Does he think some of the stardust will rub off on to him?

  61. Resident Dissident

    29 Jun, 2014 - 8:41 pm

    Just saw the crowd for Dolly Parton at Glastonbury – if she ever wants to become Prime Minister of the UK or Scotland she would walk it!

  62. craig 29 Jun, 2014 – 6:05 pm

    “A Node. Indeed. Re that Robben penalty shout, I think his track record as a known diver cost Holland there.”

    Then he hurdles a crazy tackle in the penalty box which would’ve been a sure-fire penalty if he went down.
    Then he gets hacked down twice, either of which should’ve been a penalty, but the ref ignores both.
    Then he takes another dive and is awarded the penalty which wins the game.

    That’s football.

  63. 1st time for everything Res Diss. I agree with you.

  64. “Just saw the crowd for Dolly Parton at Glastonbury – if she ever wants to become Prime Minister of the UK or Scotland she would walk it!”

    Don’t exaggerate. It was about 1500 – 1700.

  65. this from the twitter: what 35,000 looks like https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BrUt61wIgAE9yey.jpg

  66. Have you seen this? The BBC seems to have faked atrocities. I feel sick.


  67. Deserves more views, Grace. This one has gone viral though:


  68. Law of unintended consequences, helping the Syrian “opposition” to fight the “despot” Assad has meant that the “opposition” can go medieval on its opponents;

    (Reuters) – Eight rebel fighters have been crucified in Syria by the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) because they were considered too moderate, a monitoring group said on Sunday.

    This is the same bunch of “Sunni revolutionaries” who are too busy taking over the cities in Iraq, and apparently at least enjoy the backing of the bbc!

    The group (ISIS/L) has alienated many civilians and opposition activists by imposing harsh rulings against dissent, even beheading its opponents, in areas it controls.

    ISIL have highlighted how the conflict in Iraq is intertwined with the civil war in Syria,

    However the news that Jordan is no the target list too is not taking much of a traction.

  69. Well here’s a justification…. people may prefer lies


  70. Looking at this field on Google Earth you can clearly see the mark in the ground caused by tractors crossing the field from the gate on Dumbarton Road. This allows you to use the ruler to measure the area available. There is 1000ft from the far end of the crowd to the fence at Raploch Road and about 200ft in the section across at the nearest end. 1200ft would allow 600 people to crush up in line abreast, so the spectator area would be very packed with 3000 people. Clearly it is not packed out in the picture.
    There are about 250 people on the grass below the castle, 100 on the road and another 100 in the entrance.
    If you round that up to 1000 by including all the people that are milling around in areas away from the spectator areas you could be generous and say there were 2,500 people there, but I think 2000 is probably closer.

  71. Well,when you subtract the spooks,media whores,Special Branch watchers and political bodyguards i reckon there were actually 9 people there…:.)

  72. Terrible.

    80,000 Shell Shocked Soldiers

    ‘Finally Some English Officers Gained the Courage to Stand Up Against the Politicians.

    Siegfried Sasson and many others had had enough! This is his Open Letter of 31 July 1917 to the Government, published in The Times. Other writers like Kipling (after the loss of his son John) and Tolkien himself a Lieutenant (after the loss of his two best friends) along with Purvis; all created the current of opinion. This Was Very Powerful for the time and could have resulted in Sasson’s own execution. Interestingly when charged it was successfully argued that the author was suffering from: Shell Shock!

    A Soldier’s Declaration

    I am making this statement as an act of willful defiance of military authority, because I believe the war is being deliberately prolonged by those who have the power to end it.

    I am a soldier, convinced that I am acting on behalf of soldiers. I believe that this war, upon which I entered as a war of defense and liberation has now become a war of aggression and conquest. I believe that the purposes for which I and my fellow soldiers entered upon this war should have been so clearly stated as to have made it impossible to change them, and that, had this been done, the objects which actuated us would now be attainable by negotiation.

    I have seen and endured the suffering of the troops, and I can no longer be a party to prolong these sufferings for ends which I believe to be evil and unjust. I am not protesting against the conduct of the war, but against the political errors and insincerity’s for which the fighting men are being sacrificed.

    On behalf of those who are suffering now I make this protest against the deception which is being practiced on them; also I believe that I may help to destroy the callous complacence with which the majority of those at home regard the continuance of agonies which they do not share, and which they have not sufficient imagination to realize.

    S. Sassoon


    30 Jun, 2014 - 3:50 am

    Mary; You might expect fiscal conservatives to be consistent, but you’d be more productive by whistling Dixie.

    The long term costs of war. It’s what never appears in their budget requests.


    “In 2008, the Rand Corporation released a report specifically about the military personnel deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan. It put the economic impact of PTSD, including medical care, productivity and suicides at $4 billion to $6 billion over two years. These numbers are growing every day. And without early intervention, diagnosis and treatment, the cost to our economy will skyrocket.”

  74. Grace and Peacewisher above

    Robert Stuart is still on the case. Here on Medialens.

    Saving Syria’s Children ‘field’ hospital revealed
    Posted by Robert on June 30, 2014, 1:10 am

    Thanks to a new fundraising campaign by Hand in Hand for Syria it is now known that the “basic hospital funded by handouts” which featured in BBC Panorama ‘Saving Syria’s Children’ as the setting for the aftermath of the extremely dubious “playground napalm bomb attack” has until recently been funded by “a European donor which supports global emergency response.. ..via an INGO partner” to the tune of “between $60,000 and $70,000 a month”.

    It is described as “One of the country’s most sophisticated remaining hospitals”

    The campaign has garnered coverage in the Times and Guardian

    I have commented under the Guardian piece (see below) – last time I posted a link to my blog on ‘Saving Syria’s Children’ on CiF I received an email telling me it was “potentially defamatory”, so not sure how long this one will stay up.


    Hand in Hand for Syria co-founder and chairman Faddy Salhoul’s Facebook banner reads “We will bring Assad to justice, no matter what lives it takes, no matter how much catastrophe it makes”. This hardly sits with Hand in Hand for Syria’s declared purpose (on the Charity Commission website) of “the advancement of health or saving lives”.

    In a 29 August 2013 BBC News item Ian Pannell described Atareb (as it is now known to be) as “a basic hospital funded by handouts”. The inaccuracy of this description is now revealed by the list of facilities and the funding arrangements discussed above.

    That this funding was in place prior to the “incendiary bomb attack” of last August 26 which featured in Panorama ‘Saving Syria’s Children’ is clear from Hand in Hand’s website, which in a June 2014 article states “after one year our agreement with our INGO partner has come to an end”.

    Dr Rola Hallam, who ‘starred’ in ‘Saving Syria’s Children’, writes “The hospital costs between $60,000 and $70,000 a month to operate, depending on our field costs”.

    Wider issues around Panorama ‘Saving Syria’s Children’ are currently under consideration by the BBC Trust.’

    For the live links within see:

    The Guardian piece under which Robert’s comment remains.

    Syria charity blames red tape for closure of Aleppo hospital
    Staff at much-needed hospital given a month’s notice because charity needs established funding partner to keep facility open



    Craig also dealt with the lies.

    The Theatre of War
    Oct 8th 2013
    My last post on the BBC footage of Syrian casualties – and the different versions of what the doctor said – has brought me a deluge of emails, not least from the Guardian who have been in touch with the BBC and, if the Guardian can get over its phobia at ever mentioning me at […]

    Fake BBC Video
    Oct 7th 2013
    Irrefutable evidence of a stunning bit of fakery by the BBC: In this version the medic being interviewed says about the 2 minute mark: “..It’s just absolute chaos and carnage here, erm we’ve had a massive influx of what looks like serious burns, er seems like it must be some sort of chemical weapon, I’m not […]

  75. the marquees were built by the bbc props department just like the tardis

  76. There was an item on the news yesterday about the re-enactment of WW1 trenches at the Chalke Valley History Festival, nr Salisbury.


    Shame we’ve missed Gove, Freedland, the Snows, Dr Acula, etc !


    Note the first item in the blog for yesterday. A poll on Scottish independence.

  77. The link to the speakers is

    and to the programme
    http://www.cvhf.org.uk/festival-programme/ (click on later on top RH side for afternoons and evenings)

    Gove did Poems of the Great War, there was a holocaust survivor and one of the Call the Midwife actresses and these participated in the Scottish independence debate – Campbell, Gove, Glass, Maddox and Jenkins.

    A very mixed bag indeed.

  78. for perspective check out the telegraphs pic of Glastonbury about 100000 people you could fit afd into that field 10 times over 35000 my @rse

  79. Craig
    “This is worth reading”

    My nan told me on her deathbed that her father had been shot as a deserter. Her shame was such that she was never known to have otherwise spoken about this. Her father’s captain had given the family money and no one loved the queen more than my nan. But the illusions she rationalised into being were of little comfort in the end.

    I found that Guardian article to be the normal establishment guff, sentimentalising the political reality out of existence: The horror! Shellshock! Can’t judge then by our standards now! Blah blah blah…

    Here is a rare first hand account of WW1 rebellion that you won’t get in the Guardian or on the BBC: The Calais Mutiny.

  80. Ba'al Zevul (Chimp Assassin)

    30 Jun, 2014 - 8:44 am

    The BBC only carried the anti-austerity protest last week on satellite TV. Radio 4 listeners wrote intelligently to Feedback to ask why. Was there political input? BBC management was not helpful – Roger Bolton’s less than satisfied.


    Private Eye reports that this month 700 staff jobs will be cut from the BBC, 200 of them from radio, while senior management continues to multiply.

  81. nevermind, viva beautiful football

    30 Jun, 2014 - 9:03 am

    O/T but not too o/t

    So good to see Costa Rica join the quarterfinal for the first time, I would have loved to be there last night, they must be still partying now.

    David is delighted at Junckers 26-2 win and wants to work with him, pretty please. But thewre is change on the horizon as Germans, as well as her own deputy, realise that austerity has given a helping hand to the rightwing populists all over the EU.
    Sigmar Gabriel might want to see Cameron soon and talk reform, but will Cameron want to talk to him, he is a socialist who has been sitting on the sidelines for some time.


    Sigmar Gabriel comes from Lower Saxony and has no crux with those who are critical of immigration calling the speech of his own colleague ‘verbal violence. Gabriel called the actions of Israel as that of an apartheid regime’


  82. @Ba’al:

    I’ve listened to the BBC’s response from their angry listeners, and although the presenter seems genuinely concerned, the corporate response (other news stories that day) is “far from convincing”. I hope they get more complaints based on that response.

  83. The BBC continues to deliberately exaggerate the turnout at afd. Are they including the actual marchers in its total? Even then…

  84. Would have loved to have gone to Bannockburn live but cost was, unfortunately, too high for family of 4. Children should have been at a substantial discount, but hey, I digress.

    We WOULD have gone to Armed forces day but refused due to the blatant political gerrymandering which brought it here. I did not want my families day out to be used as a point scoring exercise by Westminster and No camp. How many others thought the same?

    Such a shame the powers which be spoiled a good cause.

  85. Independent Scotland may become Nordic financial powerhouse – policy group

    I wonder if the Beeb has ever broadcast any positive view like RT on this issue?

  86. The debate is lost, the outcome irrelevant, if this indepedance vote malarky is reduced to opposing nationalistic celebrations. Yet again people are being suckered into the wrong arguments by those who would lead us.

    F**k all your war celebrations.

  87. Ba'al Zevul (Chimp Assassin)

    30 Jun, 2014 - 11:34 am

    I’ve listened to the BBC’s response from their angry listeners, and although the presenter seems genuinely concerned, the corporate response (other news stories that day) is “far from convincing”. I hope they get more complaints based on that response.

    My opinion exactly. Particularly as Dolly Parton’s performance at Glastonbury, and Costa Rica playing football have been heading up the R4 News for some hours. Other news stories…yeah.

  88. Our licence fees –

    BBC sends 300 staff to cover Glastonbury Festival – that’s 28 more than its Brazil World Cup crew
    This compares to 272 who are heading to Brazil for the World Cup
    BBC said each member of staff had a ‘clear and accountable role’
    It is broadcasting 250 hours of Glastonbury coverage

    I for one did not watch it. Who wants to listen to a load of old has beens?

  89. “I for one did not watch it. Who wants to listen to a load of old has beens?”

    Well, you read this blog! :-)

  90. Sofia (Cosmic Explorer)

    30 Jun, 2014 - 11:58 am

    Anon. 1 11pm

    “…there were certainly many thousands watching the Red Arrows, more than your photograph would suggest.”

    Hello Grownups.

    I’ve been a bit too tied up with getting to the bottom of all that EU stuff to comment here for a while. But I’m back home briefly to tidy a few things up, change Dad’s litter tray and make a few last minute adjustments before heading off in search of the mysterious…

    I don’t want to waste too much space here on Uncle Craig’s blog so I’ll be brief.

    The agitation around the notion of an electrically dynamic caused by my question, “Where does all the charge go?” stirred me to go and check it out for myself. So I adapted some plans I found in an old DIY book and cobbled together an Adams Infinite Improbability Drive. That big pile of old gin crates by Dad’s shed and a few boxes of odds and ends turned out to be just the job and by last weekend I was running a few tests on “The Spirit of Gordon”.

    It all was going well and I’m sure I’d have reached the Enceladus Plumes had not an unexpectedly strong field from the BBc’s massive improbability drive sucked me into a strange and rather disturbing backwater of space/time known as Stirling.

    There, sheltering from the rain under a 40 acre camoflage sheet, dressed in strange costumes and looking rather disoriented, was a seething mass of at least 35 thousand human-like lifeforms. If you look hard at Craig’s photos I’m sure you will see the tell-tale signs.

    I hope that clears the matter up once and for all.

    Now that the test runs are completed I’m off again, for how long I don’t know.

    I’ve drugged a few of the regulars and bundled them on board. I’ll let you know what duties have been allocated later and, since I’m a fair-minded kind of troll I’m open to suggestions, aside that is, from Fred manning the forward Vrebal Blasters for defence against who knows what we’ll meet, A Node looking after the Main Logic Circuit, Ba’al using his irresistable charms in the Alien Interface Suite and Mary at the other end of the ship running the Library and PA System.

    So, off we go…!

  91. YouKnowMyName

    30 Jun, 2014 - 11:58 am

    I complained to a senior home office spook a few years ago about the declining trust in the BBC and he/she/it confessed to also watching RT today!

    Meanwhile did anyone catch the MI5 – JK Rowling thread? [NZ Herald]

    The allegation, or possibility, is that when JKR offered £1M to ‘No-Together’ – then attack Trolls from ‘YES-independence’ were highly abusive [BBC]

    Todays theory, according to the NZ Herald, is that the attack Trolls could have been fake MI5 twitter accounts? False Flag twittering from the Human Science Operations Cell??

    Mr Sillars claimed that it was “naïve” to think that the security forces were not involved in seeking to influence the outcome of September’s ballot which could see the break-up of the UK.

    A Number 10 source told the Telegraph that Ms McKelvie’s claims were “preposterous and extraordinary”, while Labour MSP Michael McMahon said the comment “would be laughable if it wasn’t so serious”

  92. Sofia (Cosmic Explorer)

    30 Jun, 2014 - 12:00 pm



    …electrically dynamic universe…

  93. One thing that Blair did get right was keeping armed forces celebrations “low key” because he knew the extent of the opposition. It was a highly crass decision by Brown to try to stoke up the political war machine when he came to office. Trying to take us back, it would seem to the “Empire Day” celebrations that my parents told me about from their youth.

    In times of austerity, and continuing public opposition to neocon wars it seems like a bad idea to try to make political capital out of the armed forces, and the only way they can do this at such times is by telling lies. We know politicians tell lies, but the BBC certainly shouldn’t! Car sticker anyone?

  94. There’s been quite a few soldiers getting vocal on how AFD was hijacked for political purposes.There’s the orders from above to let propaganda filter down and a big push on to have the enlisted men register for a proxy vote.
    My question Craig is ,what will happen to all those proxy votes ? Will they be collected by the Army first and then forwarded on for counting ? Or will they simply be normal post and collected and counted with the rest of us ?
    Forces Proxy votes must be open to massive fraud.

  95. @Youknowmyname: Probably wouldn’t be a first. Harold Wilson seemed to be suggesting that such people were influencing opinion regarding the second 1974 election. I don’t know whether that was just sour grapes/paranoia or that there really was something going on at that time.

  96. Of course the security services are already very involved in the referendum, including through cyber activity. Between GCHQ, MI5, MI6 and SO15 there are 60,000 of’em. What do you think they do all day?

  97. The BBC lied about the AFD and there will be no correction or apology. The lie is barely even plausible: the entire population of Stirling is only 41,000.

    There is a useful concept called Gell-Mann Amnesia. You are reading a newspaper and the article is about a topic you know a good deal about. You realise the writer knows nothing about it, has misunderstood the main ideas and, perhaps deliberately, misrepresented everything. What a pity. You turn the page and read the next article, something about the Middle East, and believe it all, forgetting what you learned on the previous page.

  98. “I for one did not watch it. Who wants to listen to a load of old has beens?”
    Well, you read this blog! :-)

    Not sure which way to take that Craig 😉 I think it is one of those double edged thingies.

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