510 thoughts on “The Art of Pigsticking

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  • Peter Beswick

    JSD

    It took me a while to understand the rules

    First there is a Craig offering it can be serious or jokey or somewhere in between.

    Then there are an average of 28 responses that are either serious or jokey depending on the subject and depending on the wit, intelligence, understanding, drunken state etc of the poster

    Then as RoS points out Bedlam, Which as everyone knows is an anagram for Lambed (for the Welsh, Me Bald for the Scots and Am Bled for the English.

    Its obvious when you are told but the rascals don’t tell you.

  • deepgreenpuddock

    I must say that I am somewhat troubled by the tone of some of the posts concerning sexual abuse of children and people such as Harvey Proctor and Ted Heath, who incidentally, I met when I was about 15. Luckily I was with a group of fellow pimply schoolboys in the library of the Highschool I attended. My memory of him was that he was highly cploured/pink faced or maybe flushed. He was wearing a very emphatically striped suit, quite unlike the rather understated stripes that were common among more modest folk. He was being shown around by the Heidie, Mr McBride
    anbd some people I took t be local councilors/politicians. Mr McBride was a very prominent member of the communist party and had many contacts within the Soviet Union. He even managed to swing a visit by the Bolshoi Ballet who were touring at the time.They performed an abbreviated version of Swan Lake in the school assembly hall. (this was a remarkable cultural coup for the time, especially for a rather ‘undistinguished’ working class highschool.
    I was not aware at the time that a huge effort was being made by a highly committed local authority to improve the educational lot of the working classes at the time and indeed it worked pretty well. Most of the class went to university.
    However back to the point. The point is that no matter the circumstance people are entitled to due process and to have an investigation that is thorough and fair and based on facts. At the moment the accusations seem to be rather tenuous, with vague links between certain people and the testimony of a single person. It is not that the person may be lying but it is not unknown for people to be deluded. By the same token that one can pre-judge the guilt or otherwise of an individual it is also possible to dismiss the testimony as invention.
    However I would have to make the point that despite my maturity I have never once met someone in their right mind who is I think is capable of acts such as murdering or mutilating children. I HAVE met people who were not in their right mind who were possibly capable of acts of extreme violence but the alarm bells were ringing unmistakably that this was a situation far removed from normal experience
    I suppose I am saying that I think it would be incredibly difficult for someone for someone who was capable of such actions to NOT set alarms ringing in many people they come into contact with.. My sense of
    Harvey Proctor when he appeared on TV to protest his innocence was that he seemed in control and rational. Murdering children in crazed sexual frenzies is not something that could be brushed aside without a major impact on the personality or sanity, and that could be brushed aside or not noticed by others. Even the mechanical details of the matter seem improbable.
    one of the posts also suggested that he had skipped the country to escape from justice but that is also highly unlikely. If he was to be arrested and charged I am pretty sure that he has left a trail.Nowadays as we all know it is bloody near impossible to disappear, especially for someone with a profile such as he has. Besides it seems quite likely to me that the opportunity to escape the attentions of an accumulated twattery of sensation seeking creative ‘reporters’

    However I will have to accept that anything is possible. Maybe my understanding of people is deficient but it seems improper to seem to will the thing to become true by the endless speculation from material on the internet that is highly questionable. In a recent post RobG suggests that the failure to sue for libel by Kenneth Clarke is some tacit acceptance of guilt but as in the case of Harvey Proctor going off to Europe , I find it quite probable that the participants just want to draw a veil over the whole business and get ones life back on to a even keel.

    This topic relates of course to the subject of conspiracy theorising and f course there is no question that conspiracies DO exist and there is a great deal to be gained from attempting to uncover them. I have not the slightest doubt that the run up to the Iraq war was a ‘conspiracy’ between a particular group, to deceive and obfuscate and to achieve some aim that they thought was an advantage to……..? Blair certainly made judgements that he thought were legal or that it was vanishingly unlikely that the evidence of illegality would ever surface, but that is very much the nature of politics (and capitalism) work. Essentially it is high risk activity and Blair was particularly good at that process, including the manipulation (management) or triangulation of a group of individuals so that their fates were linked in such a way that
    it created a secure or perhaps even impregnable unit. I find it quite improbable that, had there been some pre-conceived ‘plot’ to foist a huge deception on the British public, one of the plotters would not have broken ranks and revealed all.
    The ‘conspiracy’ is actually the modifications that grow organically out of sincerely held beliefs, in the same way that a tumour is a outgrowth from a perfectly healthy piece of tissue.
    I don’t think it is at all unlikely that Blair was pressured , schmoozed, seduced, bribed, charmed,persuaded , blackmailed and perhaps even threatened to give his support to the Iraq war, he then had to try to make it happen.
    That however is just what politics is. He can quite legitimately say that his decisions were all made in the national interest. It is even quite possible that he judged the Bush gangsters to be a bunch of head case gangsters but thought it best to keep his own counsel on that issue.
    Whatever his decision making process it is clear that it was wrong at just about every level with devastating results and effects.
    I think it is perfectly legitimate to attempt to unpick these events and try to find the flaws in his carefully constructed project, but success in that matter is only going t be achieved to close attention to facts and evidence and finding the weaknesses. That process is not made more likely (in fact quite the reverse) by the obsessive displacement activities,clutching at every possibility to discredit even when it descends into the most infantile kind of name calling and smearing. I suspect that ‘conspiracy theorising’ as in the pejorative sense occurs when a forensic analysis crosses over into idle malicious gossip, obsessive speculation and venting of fury at the frustration of not achieving the reward of finding ones ideas validated by irrefutable evidence.
    and i am afraid there is a fair amount of that on this thread. I should make it plain that I think Blair is guilty of something. I am not sure what but I am sure that the decision to go to war was ill-judged and I am sure that there were actual serious offences committed but that these are extremely difficult to demonstrate because at this level of government , duties and obligations are open to wide interpretations as many decisions are complex judgements
    with many conflicting factors and unpredictable outcomes. However at some point accountability has to balance out this freedom to act. That is where I think Blair will come unstuck. He still has to account for his decisions properly, not just with vague invocations of the deity.

  • Tony_0pmoc

    On the subject of Normal People (Not Pigs) – but I do talk to them. I like Eating Them – and Cows, Chickens and Occasionally Rabbits, Deer and Even Pheasents (yes I also have ate a pidgeon – well I thought about it)

    Sorry its just me..I try not to Offend…

    The Solutions are based on Love, Truth, Integrity, Science, Technology and People like My Wife….who just doesn’t think in the pouring rain when walking home very late (yesterday evening from the train station).

    She Just Does It…

    This very well dressed old man was getting drenched…She asked him if he was O.K…She asked him where did he live…Could she help him home..He knew he lived somewhere near here..Did he know the name of the road – the number – the address..and he gave my wife his phone number from 1936..One of The Originals…So it Was Still absolutely Torrential Rain…My Wife Screamed – Does Anyone Know Where This Man Lives…And This Guy in a White Van..Stops..Jumps Out and Gives My Wife His Coat To Put On Him…

    I Quite Like Living Where I Live

    People Care…

    And My Wife is an ANGEL and Got The Old Man Home.

    Is Anyone Going To Do That For You – Where You Live???

    They Probably Will Actually…Do Not Underestimate How Much Us Humans Care…

    So Who Are These Cnts in Control???

    Are They Human?? I Sometimes Wonder.

    She told me when she got him home – That The Police and His Carer Were Looking For Him…and She Said a Police Car Drove past and Didn’t Stop – I said well the Police Could See You Were Looking After Him and Didn’t Want To get Wet…More Important Job To Do???Oh Yeh….

    My Wife was like a Drowned Rat When She Got Home. I asked Where Have You Been???

    Yeh – I think I’ll Keep This One.

    She is My Childhood Sweetheart – My Wife. (Well Sort Of ..We met in our 20’s)

    Still In Love.

    Tony

  • John Spencer-Davis

    Deepgreenpuddock
    23/09/2015 10:19pm

    A very thoughtful and considered post which I think merits a detailed reply. I will try to do that tonight.

    Kind regards,

    John

  • lysias

    Could this be what the WSJ piece was about? Pentagon adviser labels Saudi Arabia as an enemy (Aug. 7, 2002):

    A briefing last month to a top Pentagon advisory board described Saudi Arabia as an enemy of America and recommended that officials give it an ultimatum to stop backing terrorism or face seizure of its oil fields and US investments.

  • lysias

    From that Leveller piece:

    Something grievously misunderstood by many members of the British ruling class is that they believe hatred of the ‘Bullingdon boy’ archetype comes from mere jealousy. The vast majority of the privately educated men who run the country really think that everyone wants to be more like them, and that therefore any criticism of elites comes first and foremost from envy.

    Just the way the trolls here think. No wonder one of them finds it impossible to believe that I attended Oxford and was blissfully ignorant of the Bullingdon Society.

  • RobG

    @deepgreenpuddock

    I must confess that I couldn’t get to the end of your very dense post.

    You’ll probably be saying next that Jimmy Savile was really a nice guy, and it’s all a conspiracy by people who wear tin foil hats.

    I don’t wear a tin foil hat, pal, and everything I cite is real court cases and real MSM news pieces and real facts, such as Proctor has fled the country…

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11832548/Harvey-Proctor-child-sex-ring-claims-I-cant-live-in-Britain-any-more.html

    Poor, poor Proctor was so persecuted (most people haven’t even heard of him).

    I find the mainstream media total cover-up of the paedo scandal just as disgusting as their attacks on Corbyn.

    The media are total vermin, just like the Establishment.

    You live in a police state, pal, and the likes of you seem to just love it.

  • John Spencer-Davis

    Deepgreenpuddock
    23/09/2015 10:19pm

    [D]: I must say that I am somewhat troubled by the tone of some of the posts concerning sexual abuse of children and people such as Harvey Proctor and Ted Heath, who incidentally, I met when I was about 15.

    [JSD]: So am I, and I do not exempt myself from this troubling tendency, as I am sure I have posted things which have gone rather further in assuming guilt than present circumstances have warranted. Mostly, however, I think I have tried quite carefully to be unprejudiced, and just to make the forum aware of factual developments.

    If you don’t mind, I won’t respond to the personal anecdote: interesting, but not directly relevant to the main body of your discussion.

    [D]: However back to the point. The point is that no matter the circumstance people are entitled to due process and to have an investigation that is thorough and fair and based on facts.

    [JSD]: I couldn’t agree more, and I hope and trust that the persons under investigation are receiving that from the police. That the media are sensationalizing these cases does not necessarily mean that the police are as well. By and large, I have been impressed by the silence from the police, although it has been spectacularly broken more than once (for example, the case of Cliff Richard), which is deplorable.

    [D]: At the moment the accusations seem to be rather tenuous, with vague links between certain people and the testimony of a single person. It is not that the person may be lying but it is not unknown for people to be deluded. By the same token that one can pre-judge the guilt or otherwise of an individual it is also possible to dismiss the testimony as invention.

    [JSD]: My own opinion, for what it is worth (maybe not much) and accepting at once that we are woefully constrained by lack of detailed information, is that experienced police officers are at least as capable as anyone else – arguably, much more capable – of determining if someone is deluded or a fantasist. They are, after all, obliged to do this professionally on a fairly regular basis. Stories which are unsustainable tend to fall apart pretty quickly when work is done to try to establish their truth.

    There have, of course, been breathtaking exceptions, such as the Irish terrorism cases. In those particular cases the police were misled by incompetent or malicious forensic scientists into accepting that persons were guilty and building their case as best they could around what they regarded as incontrovertible evidence of guilt. We should also bear in mind the sensational nature of these allegations and how interesting it would be if they were true. The “Satanic ritual abuse” hysteria of the 1990s, in my opinion, had its roots in this, but I believe the police were often very skeptical of this kind of case and that the major support for it came from incorrect medical diagnosis, evangelical frenzy and social worker concerns about child safety. So I am not saying the police are immune from being led away by the extraordinary celebrity status of the testimony, but in my judgment, if these stories were based on nothing more than fantasy from someone not quite all there, the police would probably have discovered that quite quickly and would have sent the witness(es) packing.

    That is why, in my opinion, there is highly likely to be a good deal more evidence to these cases that we can be informed about at the moment.

    – more follows –

  • nevermind

    What bull shitter would need to get legal advice to leave the country when he’s innocent. Is it to preserve one’s right to tabloidal hyke’s and or pay off’s, or one’s life, perplexing the thought that it could be the innocence of those who were abused?

    Name one reason why an innocent person needs legal advice to slip out of the country?
    And whilst you are at it, except that not many people would believe such reasoning, would questioning it, so what possibly could persuade someone to leave his beloved England, the constituency who’s power brokers one once served, those many engagements one loved and served in the privacy of schools, as DGPuddock says, innocent as the driven snow.

    Is it just the legal advice to an innocent man that made him leave his Heimat??

  • Clark

    Peter Beswick, I may as well be. I don’t accept counter-propaganda any more than normal propaganda. I don’t accept the Kremlin’s propaganda, and that earns me much abuse. I believe that there are matters of fact, rather than merely matters of opinion, and that earns me yet more abuse.

    And what does abuse mean? It means “fuck off and die”.

  • Peter Beswick

    That’s strange Clark because I get very similar abuse (but mine is obviously unwarrented) and what that abuse means is “you really make us unconfortable”.

    It elicits the same response in me as “fuck of and die” but that’s me.

  • John Spencer-Davis

    Deepgreenpuddock
    23/09/2015 10:19pm

    – continued –

    [D]: However I would have to make the point that despite my maturity I have never once met someone in their right mind who is I think is capable of acts such as murdering or mutilating children.

    [JSD]: Regrettably, I can’t say that this means all that much. Ian Brady was known as an evil-tempered swine, but no-one had any idea that he was a child murderer until he confessed it – boasted of it, actually – to a member of his wife’s family. Frederick West was a genial character who was tolerated quite good-humouredly by his workmates. John Wayne Gacy was a pillar of his community who dressed as a clown for charity to entertain sick children. The mask of sanity can be very well worn in many cases.

    It is quite possible to have a taste for cruelty and sadism and to be perfectly sane. There are enormous numbers of men – almost exclusively men – who staff the secret police forces of every nation and who are entirely willing to torture and mutilate in order to earn their pay and can go home and eat a good dinner and sleep with their wives and play with their children afterwards. I expect we would all be quite happy to meet and engage with them without knowing what they did for a living.

    [D]: I HAVE met people who were not in their right mind who were possibly capable of acts of extreme violence but the alarm bells were ringing unmistakably that this was a situation far removed from normal experience.

    [JSD] I guess we all have. I think that kind of situation is qualitatively different from a more cold-blooded and considered state of affairs.

    [D]: I suppose I am saying that I think it would be incredibly difficult for someone for someone who was capable of such actions to NOT set alarms ringing in many people they come into contact with.

    [JSD]: My response to that would be, that it is one thing to set alarm bells ringing and quite another to act upon that and secure evidence enough to interest the police, the courts, etc. One of my teachers at school was so creepy I felt physically sick to be around him, and in fact he did turn out to be a child molester, but it took a long, long, long time for that to surface to the extent that any action could be taken.

    Also, I do not agree that people capable of such acts would necessarily set any alarm bells ringing at all, as with the examples I gave above.

    Afraid I will have to close there, as I have other things to do, but I hope to return to your posting another time soon.

    Kind regards,

    John

  • RobG

    Clark, I could say that one of the biggest problems with the Brits is that they never get angry enough.

    As you know, I live in France. All this summer there’s been lots of strike action by French workers in the northern ports, like Calais and Dieppe. The British media have completely twisted this by blaming the chaos on the ‘swarm’. The British media would never report about workers standing up for their rights, because that might give workers in Britain ideas.

    So instead we have the ‘swarm’; and out of the millions fleeing war zones in the Middle East – which we have largely created – a few thousand end-up in Calais.

    Show me the bodies, I don’t care, said psycho Katie whats-her-name, along with all the other neo-con loons.

    When Corbyn was elected leader of the Labour Party a few weeks back, it was the first time in a long time that I actually felt proud to be British.

  • fedup

    Enter the self immolating Clark into the fray.

    There is a misunderstanding that for any heinous conduct, there should be the precursor of visible and manifest signs of psychological/psychiatric disorders!

    If the above were to hold true then Atos come Maximus (note the Roman theme) would not be able to declare the poor mad bastards are fit for work!

    Furthermore, the sexual repression and complications can manifest themselves in oodles of fashions, Freud made a pretty good healthy living and a name for himself to boot by finding the roots of the perversions of his patients!

    Fact that grinning imbecile Miranda Tonykins bLiar sanguinely moved the nation into a war with Iraq; a defunct spent country that could offer no danger to anyone, least of all to ourselves, that resulted in the mass murder of Iraqi civilians. He did not appear to be mad in any way!

    Ted Bundy in this interview does not appear to be mad, or bad for that matter, nonetheless he stands suspect to have murdered at least fifty women.

  • giyane

    If Cameron had sex with a pig’s head, was there any foreplay? Had he groomed the pig?

    Chaucer’s Miller in the Canterbury Tales had a wart with hairs on it “Reed as the brustles of a sowes eris. So Chaucer must have looked fairly carefully at a pig’s head.

    The Miller was a janglere and a goliardeys, meaning pretty much what david cameron is, a sucker up to Zionist mafia and seller of short change.

    It all connects to an ancient tradition of pig/ear fetish in the English elite. Very hard to condemn without appearing to be ungentlemanly or even unpatriotic.

  • fedup

    All this summer there’s been lots of strike action by French workers in the northern ports, like Calais and Dieppe. The British media have completely twisted this by blaming the chaos on the ‘swarm’. The British media would never report about workers standing up for their rights, because that might give workers in Britain ideas.

    Rob you have answered yourself there, the current whipping boys are the Muslims and immigrants**, everyday getting beat the crap out of and abused by the very angry punters! It is directing the anger that is the question, not the mood or the amounts of anger.

    ** Note the resident “Muslim” (purportedly) who is busy as ever stirring hatred albeit in a “very subtle” fashion. That interestingly enough even refers to the “anon1” (of course as “someone”) pointing out the young fit “migrants” probably being terrorists too.

  • Peter Beswick

    If the hatred is real Clark, you’ve already won if its not then try harder then you will win.

  • fedup

    Fedup, your hatred of me is noted, and appreciated.

    Hatred? What makes you think that Clark? Why should you think that?

    Only observing your style of entering debate with self immolation.

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