The Russian Plane Made Two Ten Second Transits of Turkish Territory 344


radar

This is the official Turkish radar track of the Russian aircraft they shot down, in red. It briefly transited a tiny neck of Turkish land – less than two miles across where the Russian jet passed – twice. I calculate that each “incursion” over Turkish territory would have lasted about 10 seconds, assuming the plane was flying slowly at 600mph. That Turkey shot down the plane for this is madness, and absolutely indefensible. It is fairly obvious from the track that the plane was operating against Turkish sponsored Turkmen rebels inside Syria, and that is why the Turks shot it down.

But the inescapable conclusion is that the true madness would be for the UK to get involved in Syria and make a complex and volatile situation still worse, and risk being dragged into wider conflict.


344 thoughts on “The Russian Plane Made Two Ten Second Transits of Turkish Territory

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  • Mary

    This country, though fascist, hasn’t gone quite this far, yet.

    Look at Amazon’s advertising for their film, The Man In The High Castle.

    ‘The ads showed an American flag with a German eagle and cross in place of the stars and an Imperial Japanese flag.’

    Thankfully the NY mayor has ordered the removal of the stuff.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-34919692
    Nazi-inspired TV advertising removed from New York subway

  • Mary

    Poster seen outside an evangelical church this morning

    ‘God is dead’……Nietzsche (and misspelt)

    ‘God is Dad’ ….. Jesus

  • Johnstone

    -And not just a staged, false-flag operation, but a pre-fabricated, mass Psy-Op designed to bring about radical changes and to shape or re-configure public perception and psychology-

    You nailed it… quite right Tony O

  • Mary

    In AD 2015. Archbishop Welby will not be speaking of this or the thousands of other crucifixions. After the Paris killings, he was looking for God.

    What a vile country this sceptred isle has become as we continue in lockstep with this hatred and killing.

    Settler runs over, shoots and kills 16-year-old Palestinian girl in Nablus

    BETHLEHEM (Ma‘an) 22 Nov 2015

    A prominent Israeli settler ran over a 16-year-old Palestinian girl and then shot her dead [on Sunday], saying that he believed she intended to carry out a stabbing attack at Huwarra checkpoint in the northern occupied West Bank district of Nablus, Israeli media reported. The Palestinian military liaison office identified the teenager as Ashraqat Taha Ahmad Qatanani from Nablus, and said they had notified her family of their daughter’s death. Israeli news site Ynet identified the man who ran over and shot Qatanani as Gershon Mesika, the former head of the “Samaria regional council,” which represents Israel’s illegal settlements in the northern West Bank. After running the girl over with his car and landing in a ditch, Mesika reportedly got out of his car and opened fire on the girl, alongside Israeli forces who also opened fire, Israeli media reported. An Israeli army spokesperson did not immediately respond when asked for comment. No Israelis were reported injured in the alleged attack.

    /..
    http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=768950-

  • Republicofscotland

    “Do stop whinging Node. I’ve had posts deleted as well. Some of my best in fact.”

    _________________

    Anon1, if those comments were some of your best, then the British establishment are doomed.

  • lysias

    Paul Craig Roberts’s take:

    Paul Craig Roberts: Turkey Has Destroyed Russia’s Hope Of Western Cooperation:

    Turkey’s unprovoked shoot-down of a Russian military aircraft over Syria raises interesting questions. It seems unlikely that the Turkish government would commit an act of war against a much more powerful neighbor unless Washington had cleared the attack. Turkey’s government is not very competent, but even the incompetent know better than to put themselves into a position of facing Russia alone.

    If the attack was cleared with Washington, was Obama bypassed by the neocons who control his government, or is Obama himself complicit? Clearly the neoconservatives are disturbed by the French president’s call for unity with Russia against ISIL and easily could have used their connections to Turkey to stage an event that Washington can use to prevent cooperation with Russia.

    Washington’s complicity is certainly indicated, but it is not completely out of the question that the well-placed Turks who are purchasing oil from ISIL took revenge against Russia for destroying their oil tanker investments and profitable business. But if the attack has a private or semi-private origin in connections between gangsters and military, would Turkey’s president have defended the shoot-down on such spurious grounds as “national defense”? No one can believe that one Russian jet is a threat to Turkey’s security.

  • lysias

    “Even if Turkey’s version of what happened on Tuesday is true, the response to alleged violation by Russia appears to be disproportionate and contradicting Ankara’s own position.”

    No! That is not how to wage psychological warfare! That’s an elementary error. Present your own message; don’t pick the opponent’s message apart point by point. And don’t ever say “if what the enemy says is true”.

    That may be true when your propaganda is directed at the general public. But RT is directed at the Western elite, and the more credible what you say appears to them to be, the more effective your propaganda is. For the elites, the truth is often the best propaganda, especially if it’s on your side.

    Of course, one can question whether the truth should ever be called “propaganda”.

  • fred

    “We’ll never know now. The Mods have destroyed the evidence. But even if you’re right, Fred, I still maintain Anon1’s ‘joke’ was worse than mine. Context is everything.”

    You know what you wrote, I know what you wrote and other people here know what you wrote.

    Your joke was far worse than Anon’s, I think so and obviously the moderators thought so.

  • ------------·´`·.¸¸.¸¸.··.¸¸Node

    Your joke was far worse than Anon’s, I think so and obviously the moderators thought so.

    I’m hoping the Mods didn’t fully appreciate the context of the comment and that they would have behaved differently if they had. It would be a nice gesture on their part if they deleted Anon1’s joke even at this late stage. It would demonstrate a willingness to be even-handed.

    You on the other hand have the benefit of a full explanation of my reasoning. I didn’t ask you to agree with it but it would have been appropriate for you to address it. However you choose to ignore it all and persist with your simplistic Pavlovian analysis. You’re better than that Fred. You disappoint me.

  • Jemand

    Russia is set to apply pressure to Turkey’s very sensitive Armenian Genocide nerve in response to the provocative shoot down. I wonder if the downing was to ward off surveillance of Turkish supply lines and training camps for anti-Assad terrorists.

  • Tim Veater

    Would the Turks have engaged (destroyed) a Russian plane without approval from NATO given Section 4. And are we even sure the pilots were not Americans in American-made planes? Was it carefully designed message to Russia to stay away or a foolhardy attempt to provoke a reaction from Russia as a pretext for a decisive air battle? Either way with two European countries declaring ‘war’ against ISIS and now SIX nuclear weapon power involved, the action if approved or not, appears reckless.

  • Republicofscotland

    “Fred – as so often – is talking good sense.

    People should listen to him more.”

    ___________

    Seek medical attention immediately!

  • fred

    “Fred – as so often – is talking good sense.”

    I remember when you tried the exact same trick to get away with saying something highly offensive and got banned.

  • Republicofscotland

    Node don’t sweat it Fred likes to ride his high horse.

    Fred doesn’t recognise racist comments aimed at Muslims, the West has drummed into him that levels of suffering in the Middle East aren’t that bad compared to others closer to home, he’s a hypocrite.

  • World Traveller

    Unfortunately, Turkey has been playing the game for a very long time now. The thing is that in Europe the governments made a conscious decision to look the other way and let Turkey unchallenged.

    Turkey wants to be the decision maker in the postwar Syria, that why they fuel the “rebels” with more equipments and fighters from Europe as well as central Asia. 45 Tajik fights were arrested, by accident in Istanbul a few months ago.

    See the Diplomat article bellow http://thediplomat.com/2015/07/how-many-tajik-isis-recruits-were-arrested-in-turkey/

    On the other side of her borders Turkey is flooding Europe with illegal migrants who can potentially destabilise the whole European integration. On the Turkish coast by the Greek islands, Syrian, Afghan as well as Greek passports are sold on the black market for up to $2000 to those who want to sneak into Europe under the radar.
    See here http://hotels-fairy.com/passport-worth/

    It is time for the European politicians to wake up and act before it is too late for Europe.

  • ------------·´`·.¸¸.¸¸.··.¸¸Node

    Fred to Habacuk: I remember when you tried the exact same trick to get away with saying something highly offensive and got banned.

    Tried the same trick as what? I explained that the point I was making was anti-bigot, not anti-Semitic. Are you disputing that?

  • Republicofscotland

    “Tried the same trick as what? I explained that the point I was making was anti-bigot, not anti-Semitic. Are you disputing that?”
    ——–

    Node a wee bit of advice, don’t try to justify yourself to this lot, or they’ll have apologising till the cows come home.

  • fwl

    Anon – thank you for suggesting possible Palestinian charities such as MAP. I was disappointed that no one mentioned other Palestinian charities and I don’t think anyone suggested Israeli ones. I had hoped to learn what people thought of suggestions and to see whether there was any agreement as to certain charities.

    I am not one who can explain Islam and I am sure it has many manifestations as there are people, but a worthwhile though difficult book is A Sufi Saint of the Twentieth Century: Shaikh Ahmad Al-Alawi by Martin Lings.

    A very accessible and honest book (or so it seems to me) by novelist Robert Irwin is Memoirs of a Dervish: Sufis, Mystics and the Sixties. Irwin spent time at Sheikh Al-Alawi’s mosque in Algeria in the 60’s. he does not advocate that others follow in his steps, but he remains a believer albeit a critical one.

    The following are worth contemplating for Muslems and non-Muslems alike:

    Perfection of courtesy demands the maintenance of the veil (metaphorical obviously not clothing)

    Whosever conceals the Secret is himself veiled from it and who divulges it is vanquished

    But

    He whose station is equal to his state, telleth unawares the Secret of God.

    The technique described by Sheikh Al-Alawi is not so different to the way of Zen, or the way described by English Christian mystics of the medieval period.

  • mike

    The Su24 was in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds, according to NATO. It travelled just over a mile. Do the friggin maths !

    Does this mean that Turkey was looking for an opportunity to shoot down a Russian aircraft, and that this policy had been pre-agreed?

    Now NATO appears to be leaving Turkey to dangle. Turkey has handed the moral high ground to Russia so far as closing off Syrian airspace is concerned. The Turkmen/ISIS brigades will be hammered and border closed.

    I’d love to have heard the phone call between Kerry and Erdogan. What a PR and strategic disaster for the Empire !

  • Pan

    Lysias –

    “RT is directed at the Western elite”

    Please explain.

    If what you say is true, then why are all the ‘comments’ on RT so embarrassingly incoherent and uninformed (to the extent that I have often wondered why they don’t just do away with the comments section altogether as it seems to be entirely populated by complete nincompoops)?

  • lysias

    The elite may not comment there, but they do watch. It’s one of the few ways to access thoughts that are not controlled by the plutocrats’ censorship system.

  • N_

    @Mike – “NATO appears to be leaving Turkey to dangle”.

    Do you mean the US is leaving Turkey to dangle? I am not so sure.

    Russia has made clear that it won’t let Turkey get away with this a second time. As well as defending its flights against attack, the Russian government also seems to be increasing its defence of its Syrian base, presumably to increase its attack capability in the skies of the Middle East – and I reckon not just in Turkmen country in Syria and not just against Daesh (and Al Qaeda) either.

    There is escalation.

    Ukraine has closed its airspace to Russia.

    You say a PR disaster for the US empire, but Russian PR doesn’t seem as far ahead of the west’s as it was. Where is the man who sent 200 white trucks into the Ukraine?

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