Epstein’s Death Must Be the Start, not the End, of the Investigation 382

There are a number of royal palaces and grand residences of former Presidents and Prime Ministers where the inhabitants have a little bit more spring in their step following the death of Jeffrey Epstein. The media is rushing to attach the label “conspiracy theory” to any thought that his death might not have been suicide. In my view, given that so many very powerful people will be relieved he is no longer in a position to sing, and given that he was in a maximum security jail following another alleged “suicide attempt” a week ago, it would be a very credulous person who did not view the question of who killed him an open one.

There has been a huge amount of obfuscation and misdirection on the activities of Epstein and his set. To my mind, the article which remains the best starting point for those new to the scandal is this one from Gawker.

Two days ago a federal court unsealed 2000 pages of documents related to the allegations against Epstein. Of these the most important appears to be a witness statement from Virginia Giuffre alleging that while a minor she had sex at Epstein’s direction with Senate Majority leader George Mitchell and former New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson, plus a variety of senior foreign politicians.

Epstein’s sexual activities and partying with young girls were carried out in full view of key friends, his domestic and office staff, his pilots and of course the participants. There is no shortage of potential witnesses. Several of these really ought to be taking great care – though if I were them I would certainly eschew any protection involving US security services or law enforcement. Ghislaine Maxwell might take heed of her father’s fate and avoid swimming for a few years.

(I am probably not the only one old enough to compare the many similarities between Robert Maxwell’s asset stripping career and that of Philip Green. The progress of society after thirty years of Thatcher, New Labour and returned Tories meaning that Green by contrast got no criminal charges and much bigger yachts.)

In the UK, Ms Giuffre’s alleged relationship with Prince Andrew has been mentioned in the media. In fact the evidence that she had a relationship with Prince Andrew of some sort is overwhelming. Here is some of the actual evidence from the court documents.

The age of heterosexual consent in England is 16 and there is no indication that Prince Andrew is doing anything illegal in this photograph in which Ms Giuffre is 17. Nor is the photo in itself evidence of sex, though it certainly is intimate. The notion however that Ms Giuffre was “lent out” to Andrew may have legal implications as she was flown into the country, allegedly for the purpose.

No satisfactory alternative explanation has been offered as to what might have been happening here, as Ms Guffre’s lawyers noted.

No further details appear in the documents to amplify Ms Giuffre’s claim that she was forced to have sex with a “well known Prime Minister”, other than to repeat the claim. But what is plain is that her tale is not entirely invention. Just how much more did Epstein know, and who might he have taken down with him?

The truth is that sexual abuse by the rich and famous transcends all political boundaries. Bill Clinton was very frequently on Epstein’s plane and Epstein joins the very long list of those connected to the Clintons who died in dubious circumstances.

Two coincidences – the first being the bruise marks on the neck sustained in Epstein’s first “suicide attempt” in jail – remind me of the case of John Ashe, the senior official very close to the Clintons who died with bruise marks on his neck, when he accidentally dropped his barbell on his throat while bench-pressing alone at home.

Ashe was charged and awaiting trial for receiving corrupt funds from businessman Ng Lap Seng while Ashe was serving in the USA’s turn as President of the UN General Assembly. Ng Lap Seng, a six time visitor to the Clinton White House, had previously been accused of making very large illegal donations to Clinton campaign funds, and was subsequently arrested while entering the USA with over US $4 million in cash. Unlike the Clintons, Ashe was charged with taking Seng’s money and rather like Epstein may have had an interesting song to sing while going down, had he not conveniently dropped the barbell on his throat.

I said that the first thing that jogged me to link the Epstein/Clinton and the Ashe/Clinton cases was the bruise marks on the throat. The second is that both stories have been debunked by self-proclaimed “conspiracy-busting” website Snopes – in a manner which shows that Snopes has no regard for the truth whatsoever.

In the case of John Ashe, Snopes wrote an utterly tendentious piece of “myth-busting” which stated that it was a myth that Ashe’s death occurred shortly before his trial and that he was not due to testify against the Clintons. Snopes failed to mention that Ashe, a very senior Clinton appointee, was charged with taking corrupt money from precisely the same man who had been very widely accused of giving corrupt money to the Clintons. And while it was true his trial was not imminent, his pre-trial deposition was.

In the Epstein/Clinton case Snopes wrote a piece debunking the notion that this is a photograph of Bill Clinton on Epstein’s private jet.

Snopes sets out to prove that this is not Epstein’s private jet but that of another billionaire, and that the girl is not Rachel Chandler. For the sake of argument I am prepared to accept what they say on both counts. But is the sensible reaction to that photo to say “Oh that’s OK it’s another billionaire’s jet” or to say “Why is Bill Clinton on a billionaire’s private jet in an intimate pose with a worryingly young female”? As with the Prince Andrew photo, although it has been circulating for years no alternative innocent explanation is on offer.

And the fact that this is another billionaire’s plane should open again the much wider question of networks of the rich and the powerful indulging each other’s passion for sexual exploitation of the young. It is a great shame that in the UK, the Establishment has been able to characterise the falsifications of Carl Beech as discrediting the entire notion of historical child sexual abuse. It is as though one person making up stories about a Bishop would mean there was never child exploitation in the Catholic Church.

The deeper question is why such a significant proportion of the rich and powerful have a propensity to want to assuage their sexual desires on the most vulnerable and powerless in society, as opposed to forming relationships among their peers. I suspect it is connected to the kind of sociopathy that leads somebody to seek or hoard power or wealth in the first place.

It is not necessary to develop that idea further, to understand that the Epstein case had given us a glimpse of criminal sexual behaviour which beyond doubt involves many powerful people. It is essential that the threads that can be grasped are now worked on assiduously to uncover the entire network.

I am afraid to say I suspect the chances of that actually happening are very slim indeed.


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382 thoughts on “Epstein’s Death Must Be the Start, not the End, of the Investigation

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  • RandomComment

    I’m getting the impression that all this is red-pilling quite a few “normies” Not to mention getting significant numbers of people on both the Left and Right to actually agree on something

  • Stevie

    So if Ms Giuffre was ‘lent out’ to Prince Andrew in 2001, and if she was forced to have sex with a “well known Prime Minister”, can we deduce who that might have been ? Who were the PMs in the UK, France and Spain in 2001 ? The swamp is indeed deep !!!

    • David

      July 2001 had “il Cavaliere” Silvio in charge in Rome,
      “teflon” Anthony Charles Lynton was in charge in UK ,
      a not-that-well-known Lionel was PM in France,
      José María Alfredo ran España in a rather neo-con supporty way,
      and as DG notes above, P.M. Ehud in early 2001 was PM & also the most decorated soldier in Israeli history, whilst later 2001 he left Israeli politics to work as a senior advisor with United States-based Electronic Data Systems, presumably based near Dallas TX. He also partnered with a private equity company focused on “security-related” work

      • Dungroanin

        Rome has always had its own supply.
        Yo Blair – allegedly other team.
        Spain – Probably lots of bull.

        Sorry had a couple of beers.

    • lysias

      Blair, Jospin, and Aznar. Of the three, I think only Blair could be called “well known”.

      Depending on the date in 2001, Ehud Barak or Ariel Sharon would have been prime minister of Israel. At the time, the better known Shimon Peres was a former prime minister.

    • ciaran

      Ehud Barak, Israeli pm until march 2001 (first term), reportedly mentioned in that little black book.

      • lysias

        From 1983 to 1985, Barak was head of Aman, Israeli military intelligence. I wonder if Epstein’s criminal operation was being formed at that time.

  • Hatuey

    We go down the rabbit hole into what we thought was a world of make-believe and realise that it’s the world we left behind that’s make-believe.

    One way or another, isn’t it now more clear than ever that we have two parallel worlds; one held together by illusions of morality and order, and another where it seems absolutely anything goes.

    Reality itself is schizophrenic.

    • RandomComment

      Either that, or we’re fed lies about the way the world works from birth to death and no-one – despite their best intentions – has a clue about what is true or fabricated anymore.

    • Northern

      Indeed, when I first heard about all these alt-rite rumours in the run up the US election in 2016, the sheer distance between the rumours and reality made them very easy to dismiss out of hand. The distance between rumour and reality in 2019 seems impossible to discern, however.

      The movement of the Overton Window strikes me as similar to the Snowden revelations. Just a few years ago the idea that US security agencies were monitoring your every move and key stroke was tin foil hat territory. Now it’s just par for the course.

      As you say, reality is schizophrenic.

    • SA

      Reality cannot be schizophrenic it is the pseudo reality fake news parallel reality that produces alternative reality that is now the main focus of the massive propaganda machine that is the military industrial information complex that now serves the few at the expense of the many.

  • Northern

    Every piece I’ve read over the weekend in both mainstream media and the alternative blogging sphere has just been a mash of unsubstantiated and often confused assertions followed by a hoard of partisan commentators arguing over whether this is the smoking gun to arrest Bill & Hillary or impeach Trump, along with the usual slew of people urging us to just believe what we’re told. Whether this is a case where the truth will ever become clear remains to be seen. The confirm able facts of the case don’t actually tell us very much new information if you think about it logically (powerful business men with connections to intelligence agencies use covert honeytrap/blackmail operation to facilitate their agendas – it’s common sense this has been going on for decades the world over if you think about it), but I suppose the truth is it doesn’t matter if Epstein’s actually dead or not. The agenda has been set now.

    To indulge in the speculative for a moment, seems how it’s all we can do for the time being; I hadn’t realised just how polarised the divide in US party politics actually is. For every hundred comments I’ve read claiming this is definitely the work of Trump and his DOJ minions, or the omnipotent Clinton cabal, I’ve seen only one or 2 positing what seems to me to be the most common sense theory available, that the Swamp protects itself regardless of political stripes. Lets hypothesise that this operation has been running in the world of Hollywood and US politics for decades and that old Billy Boy’s predilections for extra marital activity got him ensnared. Why is it beyond the realms of possibility that both Trump and the Clinton’s are up to their necks in this? It’s well known that both groups moved within the same social circles for years. Was Trump just another foolish upper class American who drank from the poisoned chalice to be president and landed the job of janitor to make sure this sordid affair never becomes genuine public knowledge? Muddying the water with Clinton’s conspiracies on twitter is pretty smart if you know nobody is ever going to be brought to task for it. Look at Lewinsky and the NATO bombing campaign in the former Czechoslovakia in this light and it looks eerily like someone just tried to play the same hand with Trump re the Iranians.

    As I said above, it doesn’t actually matter if Epstein is alive or dead at this point, for me the main questions are; Who was handling Epstein? Mega/Mossad? What are their objectives? How much influence over current affairs/politics/hollywood does this operation actually wield and how/why? From what I’ve read it sounds like the case in New York died with Epstein and the rest will be quietly swept away in the news cycle, though I don’t know how the US justice system works well enough to know if Trump/Dershowitz et al being named is enough to continue the investigations under new parameters?

    • Deb O'Nair

      “Look at Lewinsky and the NATO bombing campaign in the former Czechoslovakia”


      • Northern

        Apologies, typo in the rush to finish my reply whilst still working. Thanks for correction.

    • Johny Conspiranoid

      “For every hundred comments I’ve read claiming this is definitely the work of Trump and his DOJ minions, or the omnipotent Clinton cabal, I’ve seen only one or 2 positing what seems to me to be the most common sense theory available, that the Swamp protects itself regardless of political stripes.”
      But how many of these comments are generated by paid propagandists working multiple computer generated on line personas so as to drown out the common sense interpretation?

      • RandomComment

        Well first you’d have to explain why the “Clinton cabal” and “Trump and his DOJ minions” are working to the same end and are part of the same agenda.

        I’m not saying they’re not, I am not saying it was either Trump or Clinton factions (but everyone seems to agree it surprised JE as much as it did us)

        For contrast, how was Obama treated? By your very own logic, he must have been the Swamp creature extraordinaire.

    • Jack

      Excellent post and I would just add that there are 3 possibilities as to what has happened here, either: 1. Epstein did indeed kill himself, 2 he was murdered or 3. his death was faked . It doesnt matter which of these scenarios is the truth they all require the involvement of a third party and they all serve to cover up the truth and indicate powerful people are involved.

      • ciaran

        I don’t know. 1 and 2 the surroundings make difficult, security cctv make it difficult to cover up. Faking it seems most likely. There are a lot of people happy that Epstein is out of the way, be he here, in heaven or hell. Whether it was Trumps team or the Clintons side we might never know. If he’s cremated or the case ends here then it’s the swamp.

        • N_

          Of course his death wasn’t faked. It never fails to amaze me how apparently intelligent people can believe there is a strong probability that for example Jeffrey Epstein’s death or the Sandy Hook massacre were “faked”, but when it comes to repeated so-called “drone activity” taking down Gatwick and Heathrow airports without any film being offered of actual drones even in this epoch of across-the-board smartphone use, and then there is subsequent down time at other British transport hubs, blamed on unfortunate events in the power grid, people don’t even suss that these are cyberattacks because Fox News hasn’t nobody has given them the okay to think that way.

          But we ain’t seen nothing yet.

          • Old Mark

            Of course his death wasn’t faked

            A faked death is highly unlikely, but I wouldn’t rule it out until the news of who identified the body as Epstein’s is out.
            Epstein was unmarried and had no acknowledged children. He had a sibling, Mark Epstein- who is likely to inherit Jeffrey’s wealth on his demise, and would therefore likely be a willing accomplice to any cover up of any faked death.

            Has there been any mention of a relative identifying the body as Jeffrey Epstein in the flurry of news reports since the weekend ?

            It is also worth mentioning that Epstein had no cellmate on the night of his ‘suicide’, and his cell was not checked for several hours prior to the occupant of said cell at The Manhattan Correctional Center, being found ‘in cardiac arrest’ after which frantic efforts were made to revive him en route to, and at, the ER room of an unnamed ‘local hospital’- https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/jeffrey-epstein-death-suicide-questions-answers-871288/

            As Rolling Stone observes- ‘Nothing is normal about this case’.

    • Dungroanin

      As usual, ‘follow the money’!

      How does the pathocracy plan 50 years ahead? When the psychopaths they engineer will be dead?
      – They appeal to their nepotistic instinct. Their progeny will become part of the global aristocracy. Via arranged marriages.

      Follow the educational facilities, the marital lifes of their children; the foundations and trust funds and ‘businesses’ set up for the kiddies – follow the money.

      It isn’t rocket science. They don’t hide – they are the kings of the world.

      • Deb O'Nair

        “They appeal to their nepotistic instinct.”

        A good example of how family ties endure through the centuries is to look at WW1 PM David Lloyd George, who was a member of the elite put in power by the “Milner Kindergarten”, i.e. the Cecil Rhodes financed imperialists. His actions during WW1 and his subsequent involvement in the Versailles Treaty, which led to WW2, are questionable and dubious. Yet on the publicly funded BBC his historical image is regularly projected as that of a great statesman and world leader by none other than his great-great grandson Dan Snow.

    • jond

      What price democracy if we the demos know nothing .
      “He who says doesn’t know, he who knows doesn’t say” .

  • michael norton

    I wonder id Epstein knows D.S.K.
    D.S.K. was the head of the ?
    Dominique Strauss-Kahn is a French politician, former managing director of the International Monetary Fund, and a controversial figure in the French Socialist Party due to his involvement in several financial and sexual scandals.
    Who also got into a bit of bother in New York.

  • Hatuey

    I don’t know which world I hate most — the fake world of fake morality and order or the dark world of “anything goes” and evilness. That isn’t the simple question it appears to be.

    I suppose in historical terms this was what the enlightenment was all about. Ditch God, religion, and silly notions of right and wrong, and focus more scientifically on how to screw humanity.

    We live in the heart of darkness. Civilisation is hanging by a thread inside the minds of people who seem to care for nothing but football and beer. All hope lies with the proles.

    The horror, the horror…

    • RandomComment

      If you’re planning to go on a gun-toting rampage, I’d suggest posting on 8chan first. Or after, or even when it’s offline.

  • Trowbridge H Ford

    Don’t see why posters are not talking about what Cathy and Kelly O’Brien claimed about politicians like Bill Clinton. Gerald Ford, Ronnie Reagan and the Bushes regarding the MK Ultra-Project in The TRANCEformation of America.

    • RandomComment

      We may be a bit wary of being labelled “domestic extremists”

      (PS hope you saw my apology in previous post)

      • Trowbridge H Ford

        Posters should realize the CIA controls on what Mark Phillips writes about it, and the British libel laws regarding anything anyone in the know claims.Better to concentrate on the American side of this international horror which includes far too many of our so-called leaders.

        Thanks for pointing out the apology, RC, missed it earlier today.

  • Corneilius Crowley

    Most of the people I know fetishising about Epstein’s death have very little to say of any use to Survivors.

    Most have never engaged with current writings on trauma, on learned behaviour, inter-generational behaviour patterning, the psychology of hierarchically violent cultures, the psychology of egalitarian cultures, the biology of behaviour…

    None have taken any action to support Survivors even though the Survivors have been bringing cases and witness testimony to the public domain for decades, and bringing proven offenders to justice.


    It seems to me that people prefer their ‘beliefs’, their fetishes, their drama and their wilful ignorances over the hard, courageous work of Survivors.

    We all had so much to say about Jimmy Savile, and yet nothing of the Survivors.

    What support did the Conspiracy Freaks offer Survivors?

    None of us would know anything of Epstein’s activities if it were not for the courage of Survivors..

    Courage to speak truth to power, honestly, fearlessly even though they were petrified…

    None of us would know anything of what went on in elite Catholic boarding schools, and many forms of institutional residential care systems worldwide were it not for the Survivors who took direct action, via the courts…

    Support Survivors in their work, please.

    Do not fall for the drama, the feverish drama, the speculation.

    If you don’t know enough to understand the problems, then please, be humble enough to learn.

    • Doghouse

      “What support did the Conspiracy Freaks offer Survivors?”

      Not a great recruitment slogan, hardly gonna swell the numbers. Many of these people you deign *freaks* have been pointing out that people not just the young have been being abused by powerful people for decades, an act of solidarity and support by itself. When there is evidence it is not a theory it is indeed a conspiracy and was enfolded into common law as such by some legal forefather freaks. Altuistic rants can serve to alienate rather than enfold…..

  • Courtenay Barnett

    “ Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury – we have reached the point in this case where the Prosecution has to state that which is thought supports the Prosecution’s case; however, we too have to be balanced and it is ultimately His Honour who holds and weighs the scale of justice with impartiality. His Honour will – no doubt – remind you that you are the sole Judges of the facts; while His Honour is the Judge who directs on the law and that you are required to follow those directions on the law.
    “ I shall be brief in what I have to say – but shall first preface – then deliver as succinctly as I can.
    “ No doubt – every member of this jury is a high school graduate. What a coincidence – for I too managed to graduate from High School. Now, recalling all these many years ago, I do remember two types of teachers. There were the ones who took simple theorems, concepts and formulae and chose to make them complex. Then there were those who took complex theorems, concepts and formulae and chose to make them simple. Well, if I were to be a teacher I shall follow the effective path of the latter. I am a lawyer – so – let me try.
    “Mr. Epstein has been charged for the offences you shall have to hand in the indictment when you retire to deliberate in the Jury room. Like the non-complex teacher – all that is alleged there is clear and simple – stated in equally simple language. But, like the complex teacher let me elaborate on what the prosecution says is obvious and self-evident.
    “ There is central to this case what I shall simply call ‘Epstein Island’ where many rich and powerful men ( mostly men but even Hillary Clinton found herself there as well as did now President Donald Trump).
    “ So, if any of you are pious, religious and Godly, then you will visit on the appointed day a Church or a Mosque to worship and pray for sanctification and a cleansing subject to the God, as you conceive of and believe in.
    “ If a man, by parity of reasoning, visits a whore-house, then it is evident that the visit is not one for sanctification but is a visit for that he wants to prey upon others for reasons of indulgences in the flesh.
    “ The latter sums up this Epstein case. Why so?
    “ Bill Clinton visited some 26 times.
    “Hillary Clinton visited some 6 times.
    “ Donald Trump is alleged to have sodomised a 12 year old girl.
    “ The ‘evidence’ is there before you.
    “However, like the unnecessarily complex teacher I shall in short order explain ‘evidence’ – direct testimony from the witness box as you heard – documentary ( inclusive of air flight records) – circumstantial – corroborative – and all together similar fact evidence ( i.e. different people, who are not connected, save and except having had the same unfortunate experiences at different times – saying very similar things as regards the modus operandi of the entire Epstein operation).
    Who do you believe – that is solely for you to decide based upon the facts and your application of a clean conscience duly applied to the objective of ensuring that justice ( as you may conceive it to be) to be is delivered to these several women ( then merely under age and/or compelled sex slaves) – with due regards for how you asses the facts.
    Your Honour, I promised to be brief and do apologise for extending for an unduly long time. My complex non-effective High School teachers would truly have been proud of me. Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury – this case actually does not have to be complex based upon the facts as the prosecution has led.
    I remain appreciative notwithstanding my lack of brevity.
    I have thus said as much as I intend to – and – to you also Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury – I remain grateful.”

  • Gary

    ‘There’s nothing to see here, move along’ seems a very apt cliché. Already it had been leaked well before the documents were officially reported on that Prince Andrew was to have been accused of having a relationship with this and other young girls both in the UK and at Epstein’s homes in the US. But as we know the case involving Andrew somehow ‘evaporated’ and all of the paperwork seemed to vanish into thin air for reasons which we are not aware (draw your own conclusions) The original case saw him get a sweetheart deal and take the rap whilst none else who may have been involved in any way, shape or form were to be pursued (including, I’m told, his own lawyer)

    The lack of reference to the victims, a legal requirement under the relevant US laws, is the reason for the Civil Case and, I gather, has given enough fuel for another criminal case against him. Some may say that Obama was over a barrel with this case and that is why it was dealt with in the extremely unusual way that it was. Now with Trump eschewing anything with Obama’s prints on it we could be seeing these cases being allowed to properly going ahead simply out of spite for the previous president.

    But whilst the news outlets scoff at ‘conspiracy theories’ and badly hide their chuckles at such notions we have to remember that Epstein’s actions WERE a conspiracy among the ‘great and the good’ of the world leaders and celebrities. Something we are always told is just the stories of ‘fantasists’ and ‘compulsive liars’ but yet here we are. He was going to trial and he’s dead now. He had his cell mate removed (an ex cop who may have been more likely to help than hurt) he wasn’t being properly monitored at regular intervals DESPITE being a suicide risk on suicide watch who had already (allegedly) tried to commit suicide only a fortnight earlier. To add to this the CCTV seemed to be offline at EXACTLY the time that Epstein chose to end things.

    As an extremely rich and well connected man who had already beaten very serious charges once already WHY would he do this? I understand, from bitter personal experience, that it is almost impossible to say when or who in regard to suicide but this is pushing credibility to the extremes.

    This MUST be investigated. There a far too many people who are in a position to have carried out a killing and have it look like a suicide who would be very relieved at his death. There must be dozens who would have and could have, the idea that this would ONLY be investigated as a suicide would be laughable were it not so sick. Journalists who find out hidden secrets about the wealthy seem to turn up dead quite easily such as Daphne Caruana Galizia. That was overlooked by most mainstream news outlets so at least this time they have covered the death, but immediately pouring scorn on the idea that it was murder almost seems like they’ve been instructed to take this point of view.

    Of course, now that he’s dead he CAN be blamed for trafficking as he won’t be going into court and naming anyone, will he. I imagine that this will also kill any semblance of reporting on the story as well.

    Nothing to see here, just a dead pervert who conveniently died and saved a an awful lot of rich and powerful people from jail, and a lot of others who KNEW all about it from embarrassment as we would’ve discovered what they’d done to cover it up, before and after the fact…

    • Mary Pau!

      Any girls over 16, they are officially of age in England. Hence presumably why it is always emphasised that Prince Andrew did not have sex with underage girls. Let us not forget of course that President Macron was what ,15? when he first became involved with his ,40 year old female teacher Brigitte, in France.

      • Laguerre

        Nothing happened while Macron was at school. You’re just morally offended by the idea of a younger man with an older woman.

        • Andyoldlabour


          Macron’s parents moved him away to a school in Paris because they were alarmed with the relationship he had with his (married with three children) teacher. If that happened in the UK the teacher would be kicked out of the profession, doesn’t matter whether it was a male or female teacher.

        • Mary Pau!

          I merely said Macron first became involved with Brigitte when he was 15 and she was his teacher. I did not say what form that involvement took. The point I was actually making is that the age of consent varies in different countries and according to different customs. In the UK the age of consent is 16. In the UK, as AOL says, Macrons relationship with Brigitte would be, legally, a sackable offence for the teacher..

    • Doghouse

      Gary, you are right of course – it should be investigated but as we all know, not going to happen.

      I can’t see the sense or safety in ‘offing’ him. He was long term intimate with these people to an unimaginable depth. Who knows what he knew – the fact he did is beyond question. How could you safely dispose of him an intelligent forward thinking exceedingly well collected and connected individual. Even a half wit like Boss Hog would have taken out insurance. Far easier, far safer to have the CC shut down and waltz him out. Can’t give evidence coz he’s dead and he’s dead coz we say so. Even dna would prove nothing as these bozos control the chain of custody and the records, about as reliable as the novichok chain of custody…..

  • Hieroglyph

    The Royals usually effective PR team have evidently knocked their heads together, cobbled up a strategy. Daily Mail today, the young girl in question was paraded at VIP parties. Basically infiltrated them, Andrew did nuffink wrong.

    Personally, I’m just as interested in the very odd story out of Canada, where the Queen and Prince Phillip are accused of kidnapping and murdering children. Some sort of arrest warrant was, allegedly, put out. I’m quite serious, perhaps others know more about this one. It’s very strange indeed. There’s also Clinton and Laura Silsby. Another curious tale, where a powerful individual chooses to protect someone allegedly stealing kids out of Haiti.

    It’s like something out of a Phillip K Dick plot. We are living in Alex Jones world now.

    • Hatuey

      The Canada story dates back to the 60s, if I remember correctly. I read about it years ago and it struck me as junk then, just as it does now. It’s simply too far-fetched.

      David Icke is actually pretty good on this stuff, up to a point (the shape-shifting lizards point).

      Not sure about Phillip K Dick. It feels more like The Garden of Earthly Delights.

      • Sopo

        It’s funny, because the lizards are the easiest/ most difficult to grasp. Easy because they are hidden in plain sight, difficult because one has to strip away so much conditioning before one sees them.

  • DavidH

    I thought Mr Murray was against using unproven sexual accusations in public character assassination attacks. Oh, sorry – that only applies to people he’s sympathetic with in any case. If anyone dared look into the sexual habits of those Russian oligarchs and kleptocrats that Mr Murray seems to assume would make preferable lords of the universe then I guess we may also find them turning up with bruised throats, or falling off balconies…

    I guess I’m saying that I think there will always be those with wealth and power far above the average allocation. When was it ever not so? If you get rid of one bad lot then there will be others eager and able to take their place. And Mr Murray is spot on with this reflection – that it’s exactly the same sociopathy that leads men (yes, it’s usually men) to wealth and power that also causes them to behave so abominably once they get there.

    So really – HOT NEWS. Powerful older men pay for the company of younger women? Surely that’s not even news?

    If girls were abducted against their will or illegally young then nothing should stop the investigation and prosecution. Any of those angles in the Epstein case should certainly still be investigated if there are other guilty parties still out there. If you can show that then fire away, otherwise you are just slinging mud at people you have other reasons to want to bring down.

    • Sharp Ears

      So it’s all OK then? You disgust me. What have the Russians got to do with it? Are you from the 77th Brigade?

  • DavidH

    I do see some reports mentioning girls as young as 12 or 14. That’s where to focus. Who were those girls? Where did they come from? Who knew and facilitated that?

    Girls of legal age flying around in billionaires’ private jets is not news.

  • Cynicus

    What a load of shite.

    You DO know Craig’s policy on anti-Semitic material, don’t you?

  • giyane

    I’m not remotely interested in the sexual perversions of the U.S. elites who like Bolton are stark staring foaming bonkers mad.

    But if we are going to do something about them can we please also deal with Cameron’ s unleashing of perverted Islamist terror unleashed by him on Libya and on the mass rapists of Yazifi women created by the Erdogan and Barzani clans who were supported by USUKIS and NATO by the likes of war criminal John Bolton under war criminal Obama

    I think you’ll find their voyeur proxy rape was much nastier than what they did in Epstein’s palaces. Oh sorry foreigners don’t count in the Tory bonkers world view of things.

    • Sharp Ears

      We are being visited by the moustachioed one currently. He has a long list of demands, on behalf of Israel, for Boris to consider. Top of the list is to fully sign up to the ICPOA and to do as we are told.

      We are already operating in the Strait of Hormuz and there was talk of Israel joining the USUK activity. How many UK citizens know or even care about the dangerous build up?

      ‘The type 45 destroyer HMS Duncan will work alongside the frigate HMS Montrose to accompany British vessels through the strait of Hormuz. HMS Montrose covers an operating area of about 19,000 nautical miles and has so far accompanied 35 merchant vessels through the strait, according to the MoD.’
      28 Jul 2019

      • Deb O'Nair

        John Bolton is a private individual employed as a security adviser. He is not a representative of the US government. The BBC are treating him in the same manner as if he was a Secretary of State and breathlessly repeating his comments about future trade deals as if they are US government policy statements, despite the fact that he is simply a US government employee who has nothing whatsoever to do with US trade.

      • Dungroanin

        The Captain and crew of the Montrose made an extremely sane decision to not follow through on the trap set for them by their Sea Lords and Bolton/Pompeo proxies – to get blasted by the Iranisns.

        “Don’t risk your life” advised the Iranian in clear english, thankfully the Montrose listened and lived, thus stopping a full on discharge of weapons all along the straits and further.

        So now there are two sitting ducks to draw fire – not so easy to pull of a Liberty type attack in this day and age of instant communications and drones watching everything.

        However it is certainly not impossible to have a false flag, fishing boat or underwater mine type of attack on our boys and girls, at sea or in port.

        When was the last time such a official as Bolton came to Downing Street to give marching orders to ‘our’ government ministers? I want a confirmation from independent security that we don’t have a nest of CIA operatives/ multiple nationality cuckoos in the cabinet nest.
        I wonder if Potus even approved it!
        I wish some EU judge had put an arrest warrant out on the walrus tache like they did with Pinochet!

  • PeterE

    Humor me here, ok!
    Given the probability that Epstein could still still alive because he did what it took & was a LOYAL operative…….. how about Robert Maxwell?
    Daughter Ghislaine would unlikely want to ‘be deaded’ in / by the same service like her Dad…. soooo….
    Her motivation would be ‘secured’ if it was known elimination was for patsies not loyal soldiers!
    Bloody rabbit hole, soooo deep ha ha

    • giyane

      Loyal to who or what?
      A pimp is a patsy. Loyalty would be not getting your customers caught. If he wanted to be alive he should have disappeared himself a long time ago. Territorial executions are best done in an anonymous place.

    • Laguerre

      He won’t, because the women at his parties were of age, and you’re being offended about the services of women being bought, a practice probably older than the existence of money to buy them with.

  • Mary Pau!

    I am still puzzling how Bill Clinton claims he only travelled on Epstein’s jet 4 times, each time with his security detail, while flight manifests show his journeys in the 20s. Also there are reports doing the rounds that Clinton was very close to Ghislsine Maxwell?

  • Anon1

    Of course, Epstein had everything to live for, like shaving his arse and wearing a skirt for the Mexican drug lord next door for the rest of his life. And of course, if you’re going to bump him off, then you pass all the ample opportunities you had when he was walking around a free man and wait until he’s locked up in a high-security prison. Dasright.

    • John K

      Is this plausible?

      “Jeffrey Epstein was found hanging in his lower Manhattan jail cell with a bedsheet wrapped around his neck and secured to the top of a bunk bed, The Post has learned.

      The convicted pedophile, who was 6 feet tall, apparently killed himself by kneeling toward the floor and strangling himself with the makeshift noose, law enforcement sources said Monday. He hadn’t been checked on for several hours, sources said.”

      • Anon1

        I’ve seen nothing that makes me doubt that he killed himself. All the reports will confirm it. At which point conspiratards will drag all the agencies and investigators into the conspiracy

        • Node

          I’ve seen nothing that makes me doubt that he killed himself.
          Unless you believe that powerful people have never covered up deception, you should have doubt.

        • George

          “All the reports will confirm it.”

          Breath-taking assurance! Hey – YOU don’t need conspiracy theories. You already know everything!

  • Hatuey

    It’s like sexual equivalent of the Panama papers with everyone wondering whose name will pop up on the list… the crowd goes “ooooooh”, the crowd go “ahhhhhh”, and defeat is snatched from the jaws of victory once more.

    We are talking about systems of manipulation in both cases and if Epstein was done in, he was done in to protect the system itself, not any individual. Hard to believe, though, that someone so involved in the blackmail business is going to leave himself vulnerable to anything that could compromise his wellbeing.

    Of course, it should be the systems and those who manage them, the chief whips, that are on trial. We never seem to get to that stage with these things.

    Men are flawed creatures and are prone to be unfaithful, to womanise, to take drugs, gamble, drink, fight, swear, swindle, masturbate, spit, use prostitutes, and cause all sorts of trouble. Not all, I’m sure, but many if not most.

    As long as those things are deemed illegal and morally reprehensible, well…

  • Patrick Roden

    I have a slight problem with the photographs of the young women with these famous men.
    The fact that people are famous attracts people, especially younger people, to have a photograph taken with them.
    There’s also the problem question of; why would a sexual deviant pose for a photograph with one of his victims?
    I’m not in any way attempting to defend these people, just looking at the wider picture (pardon the pun)

    • fonso

      Looking at the wider picture of men like Trump and Clinton would not aid their defence.

    • Shatnersrug

      With the Epstein/Prince Andrew one its of a girl that has now alleged abuse. With Clinton I did think myself There must be literally thousands of photos of young people with Bill Clinton, Obama, Trump and they do tend to put their arm around them in a fatherly style, it’s part of their job to meet “the future”. I admit it’s creepy but I’ve seen it many times with politicians here it’s can’t really be read as anymore than it is. And of course there is now this technology to deal with


    • Anon1

      Also if you’re going to bump someone off then you don’t make it so obvious that even normal people start seeing conspiracies. To which the standard conspiratard response will be “But the elites are laughing in our faces! They dont care what the sheeple think anymore!”, or some other risible drivel.

      • PP

        But that’s exactly what you would do.

        Wasn’t it Goebbels who said ‘the bigger the lie the more it will be believed?’

        • Hatuey

          No, that was Hitler. Goebbels said almost the opposite— advocating the continual repetition of quite unremarkable lies. I think he even chastised Hitler for using big lies.

      • Node

        To which the standard conspiratard response will be “But the elites …”

        “… will deploy the usual dullards to sow doubt”

      • George

        “Also if you’re going to bump someone off then you don’t make it so obvious that even normal people start seeing conspiracies.”

        Brilliant Anon1!. This means no amount of obviousness can indicate a conspiracy!

        So – to recap: a conspiracy that is not obvious is obviously not a conspiracy. And a conspiracy that is glaringly obvious is also not a conspiracy!

        So – who is being irrational here?

  • RandomComment

    I’d suspect a) it would keep the mods rather busy and b) would draw eyes away from Craig’s own articles

  • Anon1

    First question I’d like to ask on the new forum is where’s Craig’s post on Hong Kong? I must have missed it.

    • Hatuey

      Hong Kong is ready to pop. I saw video of the Chinese army building up in a nearby Provence, truck after truck for miles…

      Manwhile tensions with Iran are rising too.

      It won’t be a coincidence of both of these turn nasty at the same time. We call that sort of arrangement “diplomacy”.

    • lysias

      Zionists have their own peculiar morality. For them, serving Israel supersedes all other rules of morality.

    • Doghouse

      Actually, shrewd intelligent dead men – one’s with foresight as to potential future predicaments, can make sure they tell plenty on plenty of tales.

      It’s live men that are being cossetted and monitored, live men that people readily presume are dead, that tell no tales at all…..

  • Ian G Blackwell

    The US Justice Department has said that the two guards assigned to watch Epstein have been placed on leave and the warden temporarily reassigned.
    These may be the guys to find out about and watch. Was there any distraction or were they just coping with lack of staff or just lax? Were they new arrivals at the prison? Will they all return to their jobs or maybe retire to Florida condo’s with a full bank account?

  • Sharp Ears

    The prince with many flaws sought Epstein’s company. To think that we. the taxpayers, are funding this layabout. Cut him off without a penny.

    ‘The next month, Epstein and Maxwell are believed to have attended a Windsor Castle party for the birthdays of Princess Anne, Prince Andrew and Princess Margaret.

    In 2000, the prince is reported to have shared a holiday with Epstein on his yacht in Thailand. Other encounters between the two men are believed to have taken place at the Queen’s Norfolk estate and an exclusive dinner in St Tropez. The pair were most recently pictured walking together in New York’s Central Park in 2011, shortly after Epstein, by then a registered sex offender, was released from jail.’


    • Mary Pau!

      Still puzzling over what Epstein’s hold was on Wexner. He even apparently drew up a prenup for him.

      • Komodo

        They were gay lovers? Epstein is the one person in this mess who hasn’t been accused of physically assaulting underage girls (yet, anyway) and his obsessive collection of young women could be read as concealing his true sexuality. Perhaps his image was at odds with his real tastes?

        • Paul Barbara

          @ Komodo August 14, 2019 at 13:48
          Epstein certainly has been accused of abusing young girls, but that doesn’t preclude homosexuality.

        • Old Mark


          There is now a heap of unsealed testimonies from poor girls from Florida, and the recorded presence of dozens of young Eastern European beauties at his ‘parties’ in the 90s, that makes that suggestion highly improbable. Remember, Epstein fully came of age, sexually speaking, in the era of Studio 54 in late 70s NYC. He got the taste for unbridled debauchery then, and it obviously never left him.

          As for the wider question of ‘was it suicide’ well, the guy apparently had a genuine Saudi passport in his NYC mansion- how many fake ones might he have had stashed away for an emergency ? Faked death ? – given the absence of a cellmate, working CCTV, and the absence of warder checks on the night ? Not beyond the realms of possibility I’d say. After all, the guy was as slippery as an eel when the legal system last had him in their grasp-


          • Komodo

            Agreed, actually – the Palm Beach charges included sexual activity with minors, and they were all female. Still, never drop a good conspiracy theory, I say, and it doesn’t seem to have been advanced before. It would seem pretty obvious that Epstein had something on Wexner. Maybe it was the young girls, sure, but if ever someone was overcompensating, it was Epstein.

            The Metropolitan Correction Center is pretty well-known to be a hellhole, Not the kind of place you’d put someone if you were concerned for his longevity. Particularly as suicide by newly-arriving arrestees is pretty common throughout the US jail system. Never ascribe to malice what is fully explained by stupidity?

          • Old Mark


            What you say about the US prison system in general is true, and like all such prisons there were aspects to being an inmate at this Centre that were unpleasant- however it seems from reports that Epstein’s ‘suicide’ was the first to be recorded there in 21 YEARS.

            Like I said, suicide is still by far the most likely explanation of Epstein’s demise, but of the other long shot possibilities a faked suicide is more likely than a homicide. Remember, he’d been incarcerated there for a month prior to this incident, so ‘knew his way around’ the gaff by then. Oh, and he was removed from ‘suicide watch’ – and those close supervision- at the instigation of his lawyers.

    • Paul Barbara

      @ Sharp Ears August 14, 2019 at 08:38
      Don’t forget, Jimmy Savile was a bosom buddy to our Royalty…

      • Sharp Ears

        Yes to the heir to the throne and to La Thatcher. Horrible reminder.

        On that matter, we hear that there has been another cover up of child sexual abuse within the C of E. The Archbishop of Canterbury’s name has cropped up as he was a ‘dormitory monitor’ at the place where it happened in Iwerne Minster in Dorset.

        Church’s handling of John Smyth abuse allegations to be probed

        It was reported on BBC South today that he has said he has no knowledge of what went on there.

        The perverts are dead when their crimes are revealed. There is no justice for those abused.

        ‘No child shall be harmed’ is my mantra.

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