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3,629 thoughts on “Amnesty International Conference on Torture”

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  • glenn_uk

    Clark: A crap dancer who can’t draw. You too, eh? 😉

    Here’s a documentary on the Snowdon revelations, which was actually filmed in real time while a lot of it was happening. Quite interesting stuff. It contains the actual people involved too, not actors.

    http://www.channel4.com/programmes/citizenfour

    Anyone interested should watch it without delay – I believe it expires tomorrow.

  • Clark

    John, yes I remember now, you did ask RD that. Sorry.

    As I recall, RD hasn’t really written much about the Kiev government and forces. His main argument seems to be that the Kremlin wants to grab bits of Ukraine. You deny that, and on that basis insist that he supports the other side. The pair of you are actually arguing about different things.

    Going a level deeper, you pretty obviously get your news from opposing propaganda systems, and neither of you recognise your own sources as propagandistic.

    The argument escalates until you’re accusing each other of the most ridiculous things. Like I tried to joke – both walking around with one eye closed, and when you collide, fighting to the death over it. Surreal.

  • Daniel

    “Well I did look out for Phil, but didn’t spot him; anyhow if you ever get a chance to see Norman Finkelstein in action, then take it, as he is fantastic ! Not only will you learn, not only will you see a skilled debater, but you will be entertained better than most West End shows.”

    I am so pissed off. I went to Kings College at the Strand and obviously went to the wrong place not realizing that there are many other Kings College campuses spread around London. The information on Norman’s site wasn’t clear. The nub of it is that I didn’t manage to see the debate which I was very much looking forward to. Where did it take place exactly?

    !

  • Iain Orr

    As I said @ 10.00am on 3 March, this is a belated response to earlier comments by Phil and Giyane. It is now primarily addressed to Giyane’s helpful assessment of Thatcher @ 2.38 pm on 3 March, as well as a later comment from Mary.

    I agree with many parts of Giyane’s analysis, but not with the attribution to Thatcher of the view that “Money could now be generated without work and without workers through ponzi schemes”. That may be – and in my view is – a reasonably accurate analysis of what happened: but it’s not – could not have been – how Thatcher saw it.

    I’m also reluctant to accept the idea of Thatcher as a castration-knife-wielding feminist, even though it’s not hard to identify various [male] Cabinet Ministers whose testicles she severed. Before going down that psycho-political route I’d like to look again at Leo Abse’s study – see http://www.amazon.co.uk/Margaret-Daughter-Beatrice-Politicians-Psycho-biography/dp/0224027263 . (Who will produce the double psycho-biography of Claire and Tony?). The views of others would be useful. I give Thatcher considerable marks for determination against Cabinet/ Civil Service dumb insolence, even if what she wanted was not what I wanted the UK to be doing.

    On the FCO (a Phil topic),I’m unwilling to pretend –with a China-centric career in the FCO – to be an expert in areas where I’m a ignoramus (Balkans, EU, Middle East, South America). There’s a bad side to that. Can’t diplomats recognise official lies in other geographical areas? We can, but we still shelter behind professional geographical boundaries; and also behind career/pension boundaries.

    Most UK diplomats who knew about Iraq were opposed to the war. Those who were retired signed letters against it. Those in harness knuckled to, with the exception of Elisabeth Wilmshurst (a Deputy Legal Advisor). From my personal point of view, I was already retired when Bush/Blair/Straw went to war: but if I had been in harness, would I have resigned? I doubt it, unless someone had got up an internal FCO petition against war (at that time, with UN inspectors still in the field). No-one did. Our record – and it goes for most parts of the Civil Service, after years of politicalisation, is of telling ministers what they want to know, not what they need to know.

  • Evgueni

    Clark – respect. Also, I should add that I appreciate very much comments from Habbabkuk, ResidentDissident and others attempting to counter the windbags foaming at the mouths about nazis and fascists in Kiev etc. The whole thing reminds me of Betrand Russel’s words about stupid people being so sure whilst intelligent folk being full of doubt. (I mean that intelligent people recognise the fundamantal asymmetry between the tasks of proving beyond doubt that a given narrative is true, and proving that it is false.)

    I have taken the advice, in the meantime, from a source that I consider impeccable, here 🙂
    http://www.howtoarguewithanidiot.com/

  • Mary

    Bad luck Daniel for missing Finkelstein. Some of these university venues are hard to locate I agree and sometimes little signposting.

    Thanks Macky for the report. Sounds a good evening.

    This is the ‘professor’. Aty BICOM. I see he has had government funding to study radicalised Muslims. No mention of the young radicalised British Jews who went out to join the IDF in the Gaza slaughter.

    ‘Professor Alan Johnson
    Senior Research Fellow

    Alan Johnson is the Editor of Fathom: for a deeper understanding of Israel and the region, a free quarterly journal, app and website. He was a professor of democratic theory and practice at Edge Hill University before joining BICOM in 2011. A Senior Research Associate at the Foreign Policy Centre, he founded and edited Democratiya, a free online journal of international politics from 2005 until its incorporation into Dissent magazine in 2009, where he serves on the editorial board. He was a co-author of the 2006 ‘Euston Manifesto’, a modern statement of social democratic antitotalitarianism, and in 2007 he edited Global Politics After 9/11: The Democratiya Interviews.

    Alan recently completed a study for the UK government, examining journeys taken by young British Muslims ‘in and out of extremism’ and developing strategies to counter radicalisation. He blogs weekly at The Daily Telegraph and World Affairs.’

    http://www.bicom.org.uk/about/team/

  • Mary

    Gideon, looking very bog eyed, announces another flogging off of state assets. This time, it’s the government stake in Eurostar for £757.1m. That equates roughly to just one year’s total Eurostar revenue. So a snip for the Anglo Canadian consortium and what looks like another Royal Mail giveaway.

    This is the outfit described as the consortium on the BBC website.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31721334

    All nicely anonymous.

    PATINA RAIL LLP (Data from Companies House)
    Postal Address C/o Hermes Gpe Llp Lloyds Chambers, 1 Portsoken Street, London, E1 8HZ
    Company Number OC398448C
    Company Status Active (Established 20/02/2015)
    SIC Code None Supplied

    See also CEO contact details and CEOemail.com main page
    Companies House data for LLP companies from OC398440 to OC398449

    Related lists UK Companies
    http://ceoemail.com/s.php?id=k-OC398448

  • Mary

    A brief but humorous exchange with Norman Finkelstein after the Two State Solution Debate tonight…

    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1425420741.html

    (VIDEO) Norman Finkelstein: Netanyahu Is A Maniac
    Afshin Rattansi goes underground on the recent Israeli attack on Gaza. Norman Finkelstein, author of ‘Method and Madness’.

    By RT|March 3, 2015
    http://www.mintpressnews.com/video-norman-finkelstein-netanyahu-is-a-maniac/202814/

    EXCELLENT
    March 2nd, 2015 in Blog, News.
    ‘Escalation’ is when Palestinians lose self-restraint
    The IDF sees itself as only reactive: not responsible for escalation and certainly doesn’t initiate it. If not for the Palestinians stuck between IDF bases and West Bank settlements, it could have fulfilled its real goal – nature preservation.

    http://normanfinkelstein.com/2015/03/02/excellent-6/

  • Mary

    A little more on Patina LLP.

    ‘March 04, 2015 CDPQ and Hermes to buy UK’s Eurostar stake Patina Rail LLP, a consortium comprising Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec (CDPQ) and Hermes Infrastructure have agreed to acquire a 40% shareholding in Eurostar International Limited from the UK Government.=

    http://www.brianbollen.com/bbb_brian_bollens_blog/2015/03/cdpq-and-hermes-to-buy-uks-eurostar-stake.html

    Hermes
    http://www.hermes-investment.com/corporateinformation/Overview/Whoweare/tabid/2842/language/en-US/Default.aspx

    CDPQ
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caisse_de_d%C3%A9p%C3%B4t_et_placement_du_Qu%C3%A9bec

    Assets $200,149 billion

    Sabia, president and CEO, is the Canadian privatisation king.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Sabia

  • John Goss

    “The whole thing reminds me of Betrand Russel’s words about stupid people being so sure whilst intelligent folk being full of doubt.”

    Evgueni, wise philosophy. Also your link contained sound advice.

    As you aligned with Resident Dissident and Habbabkuk and castigated those of us, who to my mind have quite reasonably arrived at the conclusion that there is a fascist putsch government established in Kiev, and to memory in all your comments you have supported Resident Dissident and Habbabkuk, can I ask you in all seriousness: where is your doubt?

  • Phil

    Hello Iain

    I didn’t mean to sound as if I begrudged reading the article. I think we mostly agree. That diplomats are, especially in matters of war, both less influential and more partial than advertised.

    I do find the “it’ll be the end of my career” argument highly offensive. I do judge people who will not risk anything to stand up against unambiguous wrong. No diplomat would starve without their job. They might have a smaller rose garden in the country upon retirement. They will have fewer craven friends.

    And a commitment to ignore wrong doing changes people. while rationalising their choices they slowly become the horror they used to recognise.

    I suppose I speak from the lofty perspective of someone with nothing to loose. That’s class politics for ya.

  • Phil

    Blah blah blah fascists, fascists blah, fascist fucking blah.

    Been shopping at Marks and Sparks today John?

  • Phil

    Macky

    No I didn’t go last night. Decided to stick to my original arrangemnent.

    Good to hear you account. Step in from the cold. Anonymity sucks.

    Daniel

    It was by Guys hospital.

  • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

    Clark

    Thanks for the heads-up on “Macky”. Very strange!

    Re your “Macky and John Goss seem not to want to answer my question. I can’t work out why”,

    the answer is so simple I’m sure you’ve worked it out for yourself. But if not, do you want me to tell you?

  • John Goss

    This article does not bode well for Ukraine’s economy.

    http://www.cato.org/blog/ukraine-hyperinflates

    The National Bank of Ukraine has stepped in to try and avoid total disaster by hiking up interest rates to 30% from 19.5% (starting today) advising businesses to sell their western assets to prop up the Hryvnia. Two months ago the interest rate was 14%.

    For a moment I am putting myself in the position of a Ukrainian business. Am I going to sell off that part of my business that has some kind of stability and take a risk that the Hryvnia will suddenly stabilise? Bearing in mind that many workers have not been paid their wages for months on end, that much of the country is in need of rebuilding due to an unnecessary civil war, the decision is a non-starter, however patriotic I may be. There are big economic problems ahead for Ukraine.

    Yanukovich was probably corrupt, lining his pockets, like Timoshenko and others before him. But the country, however disgruntled many were, was relatively stable. The irony there of course is when a leader the west wants removed to install a puppet that leader is portrayed as a pariah. I am dearly hoping that the story about the nuclear weapons from South Africa that Cameron ‘lost’ in a shady deal breaks before the general election. But I’m not holding my breath.

  • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

    Fred

    “Every family has a black sheep, every village has it’s idiot and every forum has it’s troll it’s a natural law of the universe.”
    _______________

    I’ll say it before anyone else does: and every flock of sheep has its sheep-shagger.

    No names no pack-drill, eh?

  • John Goss

    “Re your “Macky and John Goss seem not to want to answer my question. I can’t work out why”,

    the answer is so simple I’m sure you’ve worked it out for yourself. But if not, do you want me to tell you?”

    Why do you persist in your trolling Habbabkuk? You’re as mischievous as Noddy. And why does Clark continue to say I have not answered his question when I clearly tried several times.

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2015/02/amnesty-international-conference-on-torture/comment-page-13/#comment-512366

  • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

    Mod(s)

    “Sock-puppet alert at 1:55am. Supervisor to the hosiery department.

    [craigmurray.org.uk – Evgueni appears entirely genuine and first commented in December 2010. There is no indication of sock-puppetry. Evgueni’s first comment is linked here:]

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/12/they_got_the_wr/comment-page-2/#comment-302585”
    _________________

    Thanks for that, Mod(s). Can you please just confirm that “Tony M” appears entirely genuine and give us an indication of when he first posted.

    Thanks in advance.

  • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

    Mr Goss

    “Why do you persist in your trolling Habbabkuk?”

    ________________

    You have not yet learnt to distinguish a troll from someone who contests your views, Mr Goss.

    That’s surprising from someone who, in addition to squatting on the blogs of his betters, also runs his own blog.

  • John Goss

    Looking at one of his comments I think the real intention of Clark was to get others to ask him where he stood as regards the Ukrainian government. I should like to know. And it is fair to allow him to answer since some may have the wrong impression, including me.

  • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

    Mr Goss

    “The National Bank of Ukraine has stepped in to try and avoid total disaster by hiking up interest rates to 30% from 19.5% (starting today) advising businesses to sell their western assets to prop up the Hryvnia. Two months ago the interest rate was 14%.”
    ________________

    Yes, that’s what tends to happen when a currency’s under pressure (cf Argentina for another recent example; or even Russia!).

    Of course it’s not surprising that the Ukrainian currency should be under pressure when the state is under attack from local fascists in the east supported by a Russian state which appears to be re-discovering the joys of old-style Soviet paranoia and imperialism.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “But the country, however disgruntled many were, was relatively stable.”

    ___________________

    Well, yes, but that’s the funny thing about stability. There are states which appear stable – not to say ossified – and then, all of a sudden, pop! they’re not stable any longer. They implode for reasons of non-viability or of their own internal contradictions. Can you think of any states like that in the same general neck of the woods as Ukraine, Mr Goss?

  • John Goss

    “You have not yet learnt to distinguish a troll from someone who contests your views, Mr Goss.”

    I would welcome you contesting my views, but even in that comment from which the above quote comes there was, as usual, no contesting of views, just insult. In fact none of your comments on this page (6 as I write) there is no contesting of views, just attempts to belittle and troll. Ocassionally, very occasionally, you do make comments which contribute to the debate. I would like to see more of them.

  • John Goss

    A better comment addressing issues rather than individual commenters. Thanks.

    “Can you think of any states like that in the same general neck of the woods as Ukraine, Mr Goss?”

    No. Can you enlighten me please?

  • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

    Mr Goss

    You write:

    “As to supporting Vladimir Putin, if I think he’s following the right policy I do. If I don’t think he following the right policy I don’t.”
    ______________

    I have never seen you express support on here for any action ( or non-action) of Barack Obama’s or David Cameron’s.

    Therefore I wonder if you would confirm whether you apply the same approach as outlined above to Obama and Cameron?

    Thank you for your clarification.

  • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

    ““Can you think of any states like that in the same general neck of the woods as Ukraine, Mr Goss?”

    No. Can you enlighten me please?”

    _______________

    The former Soviet Union, perhaps? 🙂

  • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

    Mr Goss

    “I would welcome you contesting my views, but even in that comment from which the above quote comes there was, as usual, no contesting of views, just insult. In fact none of your comments on this page (6 as I write) there is no contesting of views, just attempts to belittle and troll.”
    __________________

    That sounds very fine, Mr Goss, but you see the problem is that when someone as polite and open as Clark comes along and contests your views (on Putin and Ukraine in this instance) you don’t like it very much.

    You remain polite for a very short while, you then obfuscate and attempt to evade, and then when he doesn’t bend to your views and doesn’t let himself get distracted you start insulting him. Your comments over the last few pages show this very clearly.

    So you see, you’re not really the right person to be talking about others not discussing and insulting, are you.

    For what it’s worth, I think you’re upset that an increasing number of people appear to have seen through you. And that your views are not getting the support you thought they would. Perhaps the two are linked.

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