Pandering to Racism

by craig on June 26, 2013 1:52 pm in Uncategorized

Here in Ghana people are stunned by the announcement that a bond of £3,000 will have to be submitted by visa applicants to the UK, redeemable on return.

It is unpleasant for a nation to be singled out as comprised of particularly untrustworthy individuals against whom special measures are needed.  Theresa May appears quite deliberately to be singling out countries whose citizens are normally black or brown – India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Ghana and Nigeria.  They are all citizens with extremely close ties to the UK.  For example, all of those countries supplied large numbers of men to British armed forces in two World Wars; with little resulting gratitude.

The true level of Britain’s regard for the Commonwealth is disclosed in all its arrogance; citizenship of the Commonwealth countries with the longest link to the UK will become a positive disadvantage in visa application.  Israeli settlers living in Occupied Palestine on the West Bank, incidentally, will still be allowed to enter the UK without any visa at all, despite membership of neither Commonwealth nor EU.  Paradoxical, isn’t it?

The measure shows the arrogant British disdain for these countries – of which India pre-eminently but also Ghana are fast growing and important trading partners.  Undoubtedly Ghana will retaliate with measures which hurt British businesses; many of my good friends are senior Ghanaian politicians, and they are all furious.  The rhetoric the British employ about transformation from colonial status to a modern partnership of equals is exposed for the tissue of lies it has always been.  This is a straightforward racist measure, aimed at securing the racist vote to the Tories.

Not does it make any sense.  If you are intending to enter the UK under false pretences, and have the intent illegally to settle and start a new life there, then £3,000 is scarcely a deterrent given the substantial economic gains you intend to make over the long period you intend to stay.  It will rather seem a good investment; people will find the money.  The people it will deter are those who never intended to overstay.  The extra cash upfront,  to the businessman for a business trip, for the student coming to study, for the tourist will drive them to go elsewhere, to the UK’s net loss.

More cruelly it will deter decent middle class people from coming to see grandchildren in the holidays, from going to the niece’s wedding,  from going to graduation.  Those things will become the prerogative of the wealthy, those with plenty of cash to spare.

This does nothing to deter illegal immigration.  It merely demonstrates populist racism, demonstrates contempt for some of the UK’s best-disposed friends, and demonstrates that the government thinks the right to travel is only for the rich.  It is contemptible.

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932 Comments

  1. I’d like to see the statistics on over-stayers and the immigration budget on investigations into those people before I pass judgement. It is an interesting idea that those who post a £3000 bond should be dissuaded from overstaying if that was their intention. They’re going to stay anyway. And if they need to borrow the money to get into the UK, it might be a new racket waiting to start up with associated criminal activities. I don’t believe it is racist, but certainly questionable in its expected effectiveness in bringing overstaying under control. Thin end of the edge?

  2. Absolutely.
    Typical xenophobic racist crap which all parties seem to be engaging in, in an attempt to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

    Unfortunately, seeing this sort of bile expressed so often in the media and amongst politicians just fuels racism.

    We need to stand up to racism not pander to it.

  3. Its a tilt at UKIP voters.

    Which will make more sense after Farage gets smeared at a time of the spooks choosing.

    And where will those distraught UKIP voters scurry to then?

  4. How many votes will the Tories win from UKIP by this?

  5. Israeli settlers living in Occupied Palestine on the West Bank, incidentally, will still be allowed to enter the UK without any visa at all, despite membership of neither Commonwealth nor EU.

    There are no board of deputies tirelessly working on behalf of the Black citizenry of various origins in UK.

    The current racist policies are resultant of the calculations of the powers be, to dissipate the simmering anger and increasing resentment of the population in the face of iniquitous and criminal wealth distribution and even denied the opportunity to work, to earn a living. This coupled with taxation policies that favour the rich, and rob the poor to let the rich to keep even more of their ill gotten gains.

    The scapegoating of the Muslims, and immigrants is sure a fire way of directing the anger of the population away from the culprits whom have caused their untold misery, and onto a minority that have no political clout, or any kind of a board of deputies to influence the events in the way of selection of the would be carpetbaggers and their cohorts into the seats of power or placements on or near the public trough.

    This remittance of money along with increased costs of obtaining a visa is a measure to help to further dehumanize the “foreigners/immigrants/Muslims/Coloureds/Blacks”. This measure is a kind of a fine for being a foreigner and daring to arrive at any of the ports of Engerland.

  6. Flaming June

    26 Jun, 2013 - 3:42 pm

    It is both outrageous and fascist. I said that India and Nigeria had strongly objected. Has Ghana said anything?

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/the-man-who-didnt-disappoint/#comment-414647

    Someone in reply seemed to think it was a perfectly reasonable move!
    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/the-man-who-didnt-disappoint/#comment-414655

  7. It is similar to the not wholly nonsensical view that capitalism has endured through its demonstrably inherent and repeated catastrophic failure because it works synergistically with the worst but occasionally prevailing human traits of selfishness, greed and delusional conscience-less individualism. It is unquestionable that the Tories are racist to the core, but rarely do they dare say so; someone, as it’s likely not Cameron, is driving this lurch to the unspeakable right. I finger IDS as the head of the extremist faction presently in the driving seat of the Tory juggernaut, for his driven visceral demonisation, euthanising and zealous persecution of the sick and the disabled is an unmistakeable fascist trait identifiable as the signature of that and similar supremacist ideologies, even when not fully-formed. Their misreading of England is chillingly inept, based incestuously on a small sample comprising it seems, of a certain Sun Journos blog followers, and informed by their inane xenophobic ‘other’ bashing. It is representative democracy in reverse, the politicians attempting to transfer and ascribe their narrow, privileged, think the unthinkable, behind closed doors repulsive ideas to the population at large, again thinking of hitching an an easy ride along with an unspoken repressed trait of intrinsic human nature, as with capitalism’s inviolable preferment, a grossly simplistic pseudo-scientific self-serving mis-unserstanding of the human psyche.

    Tories (and the rest of the parties) to England: “I, and my friends, our sort, have never had it so good, so stfu you whingeing cnuts, else we’ll taser you, or worse!” Translating this into ‘foreign’ it could be written as: La vita è bella!

  8. Great post. Your last sentence sums it up. “It is contemptible.”

    Add to that that Theresa May has an anti-Islam aspect to her racism and you have a fully-rounded racist against UK citizens too. I’ve raised a FOI request upon the Home Office regarding Abu Qatada in which I have tried to get figures of those arrested under anti-terrorism acts. It contains the following questions:

    “4) Does the Home Office operate a system of racism (religionism if
    you like) against Islam?

    5) Can you tell me please how many people have been held in custody
    under the Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 and then the
    Protection of Terrorism Act 2005?

    6) How many of those held under the aforementioned acts were
    Muslim?

    7) How many of those held under the aforementioned acts were
    non-Muslim?”

    https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/abu_qatadas_crime_or_crimes#incoming-400219

    Somebody may wish to raise a similar FOI on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office on racist immigration measures. I feel I have been fighting racism for much of my life but only in the last twenty years has the British government in power itself been blatantly pro-racist. I believe it all boils down to these Acts which have taken away the basic tenet of English law habeas corpus.

  9. As we can be sure that many of those who pay the bond will stay, it’s a nice little – stress little – earner for a Chancellor who has long been devoid of ideas. Utterly pointless move, otherwise. Racist? In a sense, anyway. Poles, Ports and Baltics can stay as long as they like. We can be sure that the sharks who currently extort money from migrants to get them into the country, legally or otherwise, will be rubbing their fins at this one. And that the effectiveness of our legitimate border controls will not be increased one whit.

    I (notoriously) hold that there IS a problem. But this doesn’t address it.

  10. Soon we will be asked to pay a bond to post comments here.

  11. Komodo, “rubbing their fins”! I’d like to shake your claw for that one.

  12. Flaming June

    26 Jun, 2013 - 4:06 pm

    Mr Peter Jones attempts to put out the fire, and fails I should imagine.

    Please apply for your visas; nothing has changed – UK High C’ssioner assures
    From: Ghana Myjoyonline.com Malik Abass Daabu
    Published On: June 26, 2013, 9:36 GMT
    http://edition.myjoyonline.com/pages/news/201306/108527.php

    ~~

    How much does a ConDem visa cost these days?

  13. Disgusting that my in laws in tema will find it impossible to come visit the grandkids now. Vote YES in 2014 and break free from colonial rule.

  14. Flaming June

    26 Jun, 2013 - 4:18 pm

    After doing a lot of clicking round St Theresa’s annoying website, I found out the cost of the fees for the bit of paper to enter the UK for a visit.

    Visit

    Consulate rate of exchange:
    GBP1.00 = GHS3.20

    General visitors Visa application fee

    Short-term (up to 6 months, single or multiple entry)
    255
    General visitor
    Longer-term (valid for up to 2 years)
    890
    General visitor
    Longer-term (valid for up to 5 years)
    1635
    General visitor
    Longer-term (valid for up to 10 years)
    2360
    General visitor

    Business visitors Visa application fee
    Short-term (up to 6 months, single or multiple entry)
    255
    Business visitor
    Longer-term (valid for up to 2 years)
    890
    Business visitor
    Longer-term (valid for up to 5 years)
    1635
    Business visitor
    Longer-term (valid for up to 10 years)
    2360
    Business visitor
    Academic visitor (up to 12 months)
    255
    Business visitor
    Clinical attachment, dental observation or PLAB test
    255
    Business visitor
    Diplomatic courier
    255

    etc etc Entertainer, Family, Marriage, Medical Treatment

    http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/countries/ghana/fees2/?langname=UK English

  15. I regret to say that I agree – it does sound like an idiotic measure. I’m disappointed that Theresa May couldn’t see that the bond wouldn’t deter the people it was designed to keep out.

  16. Pb
    Lets get this straight
    The current ‘racist’ state(ment) of the brit est is …?!,”@

  17. Its a stupid idea that will only stop genuine visitors coming to this country, as previously mentioned it wont stop any illegal entry.
    .
    I believe that it is a measure to prevent health tourism, about which we seem to hear so much, but if we as a nation know the level of health tourism then we as a nation must also know when some one enters the NHS system that isnt entitled to do so, IF that is the intended purpose of this stupid idea then why not simply charge the relevant person when or if they use the NHS ?
    .
    Then again, if someone turns up at a hospital in the UK who needs medical assistance are we going to turn them away because they cant afford it ? In a lot of places in the world as a visitor you will get the bill, wether that is morally or ethically right is a different arguement.

    I remain unconvinced that this measure will do anything to resolve the alleged “problem” and is simply the Con/Dems playing to the nationalist instinct in order to win votes.

    Our border control is a mess, those in power should sort that first, but of course that would require some intelligent thinking and some intelligent discussion, none of which we can get out of the current crop of politicians.

  18. O/T Sorry – Michael Hastings crash – full interview with witness https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fweyFCFKcp0

    - Rough summary of witness account: Car apparently travelling as fast as it could possibly go; witness instantly assumed driver trying to kill himself; sparks/flames coming from rear near fuel tank as bounced off potholes/undulations on road at very high speed; no attempt to stop; hit some bigger dips in road; left the road; smashed into tree already partially on-fire;instantly exploded.

    Wikileaks twitter apparently confirmed that Hastings contacted Wikileaks lawyer Jennifer Robinson just a few hours before this crash.

  19. “Disgusting that my in laws in tema will find it impossible to come visit the grandkids now. Vote YES in 2014 and break free from colonial rule.”

    Show Westminster that the people are against Nationalist policies?

  20. Many of the immigration paradoxes are rooted in our membership of the European Union. We can’t control immigration properly until we leave it as we must accept anybody who enters from another EU state.

    Against this background our government must always be seen to be doing “something” so they pick on the easiest targets outside the EU.

    Craig is a supporter of the EU, if I recall correctly.

  21. I have it reliably that the sock-puppet Kibo Noh has now turned up as ‘David’. Expect a strong rebuttal. But, Jon, perhaps you can double-check this and confirm? This time more promptly and clearly?
    ——
    Has anybody considered that a lot of border-line (pun intended, if we are allowed to laugh here) applicants get visas refused and through this mechanism they may be able to prove their bonafide intentions?

    Just asking. This is not my holistic view for which i don’t have time atm.
    —–
    However, i would like to ask Mary did she have to put up a foot-long menu (again, pun intended) of visa fees. Couldn’t the point be made illustratively or by some other succinct manner, easier to digest?

  22. Jon, rude of me not to use the magic word. So, please and thank you for doing a difficult job, generally.

  23. In a world teeming with hundreds of millions (billions?) of poor people who seek a better life, you Britons have to make a decision to either let them in (in the millions) or not let them in (in the millions). Whether for migration or tourism, I do not care. If you won’t let them in, in such large numbers, then you have to determine a process by which you discriminate against those who are denied entry. How should that process work? And for whose benefit should entry to your country serve?

    If you have no problem with poorly educated, non-English speaking people who have learned to survive the hard way, migrating or visiting in their millions to your little island country, then open the doors and let them come, for they surely will – in their millions.

  24. Flaming June

    26 Jun, 2013 - 6:03 pm

    No sorry Villager the link would not extend to carry the details. I said the website was tricky. Can’t imagine people in other countries not speaking English dealing with it. What a petty bit of point scoring btw. What is your problem?

  25. Windy Miller

    26 Jun, 2013 - 6:13 pm

    It is truly appalling that Ghanaians (and others) are treated this way and I believe that this isn’t the first time where Ghanaians are concerned. Engineers with impeccable backgrounds have suffered in the past trying to come to the UK for major business deals between the UK – Ghana.What has Ghana done to the world except be perfect neighbours. What I find even more saddening is that when every I applied for Ghanaian Visa’s they were fast, polite and fairly priced, in fact 2 year multi-entry visa’s are the norm, and if they have expired we can even get a visa on Entry, such is the trust given by Ghana.

    I have read many things on these threads but this actually does make me feel embarrassed.

  26. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    26 Jun, 2013 - 6:23 pm

    @ Flaming June :

    I think Villager’s problem with your longish list of visa fees was the same problem as I had.

    It was that I did not quite understand – although I did try hard – the point you were trying to make by posting that longish list. For example, do you think they are too high (per se, or in comparison with what other countries – including some African ones- charge) and if so, what might be wrong in charginhg such high fees. Or then you might be thinking tht they are too low. Or perhaps you’re making some kind of unspoken link between those fees and the £3000?

    Would you please post again and enlighten us? In the interests of pursuing a civilised and enlightening dialogue and discussion of course, as requested by Jon.

    Thank you.

  27. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    26 Jun, 2013 - 6:34 pm

    Before reading further in this potentially very interesting thread and prhaps commenting further, could I ask – just to get basic positions clear – if there is anyone present who believes that there should be no immigration controls into the UK and/or that there is no problem of so-called over-staying?

    Thank you.

  28. It will damage (British) business and the arts. They – those from those countries who have difficulty getting visas – just go elsewhere. And it will make visiting for social/family events much more difficult. It’s already difficult; this will make it worse. It’ll also cause much resentment. Not good. Unwise. What’s new, though?

    We all know there are rackets. I don’t think this measure will stop those at all. It’ll just stop the honest people.

  29. O/T

    This petition already has above a million signatures in support of Edward Snowden and against Prism. Let’s make it two.

    https://secure.avaaz.org/en/stop_prism_global/?aCNkdbb

  30. I can see it from several sides.A Russian friend who has moved here to educate her daughter at a private school has been unable to renew her visa here.She was paying £3750 a amonth rent,school fees of about £5000 a term,plus living costs perhaps a total of £100k p.a.The money she brought in would have kept a few people in work.
    I also have a Portuguese friend whose English ex boyfriend brought her and her child to the UK so that the child could go to a free school and learn English.She has now split with the boyfriend and he has somehow arranged for her to have a flat and £850 housing benefit a month (plus of course Child benefit.She therefore costs the state approximately £25000 p.a.Assuming that the school costs are £5000 per term.
    This does’nt make sense does it?

  31. “This does’nt make sense does it?”

    It makes perfect sense.

    Britain and Portugal are both members of the EEC so someone from Portugal can come here and get the benefits of our education system while people in Britain can move to Portugal when they retire and take advantage of their climate and lower cost of living.

    We don’t have such an arrangement with Russia but it would be nice if one day the circumstances arose where we could.

  32. Well it seems like a pragmatic approach to me. You have to have a system in place to stop millions of people from poorer countries coming here, as they surely would, and understandably do. Unfortunately that system is based on ‘quis paget entrat’, but that’s just the way of the world. I really don’t think it has anything to do with “arrogant British disdain for these countries”, Craig.

  33. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    26 Jun, 2013 - 7:35 pm

    @ Fred :

    Geoffrey’s post does actually make more sense than you give him credit for, Fred.

    This is because it seems to me that his phrase “It doesn’t make sense, does it” is a comment not on the Portuguese side of his illustration only but on the totality of his illustration. He appears to be contrasting the Russian person who was refused a visa extension despite bringing money INTO the state with the Portuguese who who is allowed to stay (despite the family split-up) and is COSTING the state £25.000 a year.

    What is not clear from his post is whether he thinks that Russians should also be entitled to visit and stay without a visa (like EU citizens) or whether the arrangements in respect of EU nationals are a bad thing.

    But from a strictly economic standpoint, the example he gives does seem to point to a fairly nonsensical situation.

    Hope that helps, Fred.

  34. Habbabkuk, no, they live in la-la land where everything is the fault of the Bri’ish State.

    The obvious problem with Craig’s analysis is that Israeli settlers don’t, and wouldn’t want to, come here en masse, but that does n’t stop him from carrying on with the old racism crap.

  35. That was, Habbabkuk @6.34pm.

  36. Being a citizen of a member nation of the Commonwealth is not a good reason for privileged access to the UK. As we all know, the Commonwealth is a vestigial remnant of the empire which existed solely for the benefit of the UK. Rather than sever all links between former colonies, the Commonwealth provided a formal structure to pursue matters of common interest, not for the direct benefit of citizens but for the governments and large private interests of member nations.

    Looking at the nations that make up the Commonwealth, it’s hard to see what we have in common that should rationalise the extension of privileges to its citizens that cannot or should not be extended to citizens from non-Commonwealth nations. Why should a Pakistani get special treatment over a Japanese in their applications for a visa? Because one is a member of an exclusive club?

    Again, there has to be a reason for allowing entry to a country and it is common knowledge that all countries grant visas and charge fees according to their own migration policies, security assessments, cultural sensitivies and business objectives. Is this £3000 bond demand an inexplicably racist policy or a test of a new measure to manage an actual problem? Does a problem not exist? Let’s see some evidence.

  37. By the way, did you get your “Life is good” tagline from your LG “Life is Good” television set?

    That’s what it says when I turn on my propaganda box!

  38. well said Craig, what a contemptible racist little measure from Ms. May.
    Just imagine that there is a reciprocate measure introduced by these countries for British business and/or a levy on tourists.

    So if business wo/men and tourists/family get togethers, etc., have to pay £3000 per person to enter into a developing country, how much should theses developing countries charge business wo/men from a developed country to come into their country? twice as much? More?
    £10.000.

    Off course, Ghana, as a sign of friendship and cooperation, could extend the visa free entry of illegal West Bank settlers offered by Britain, to their own country, to soften the impact of their ‘fairness tax’.

  39. technicolour

    26 Jun, 2013 - 7:55 pm

    The price of everything, and the value of nothing. Touring musicians, actors, writers, visiting friends, families – unless they’re rich, they can stay away. What a sad, tight, joyless, uninspired, Philistinic miserablist little excuse of a place we become.

  40. “Geoffrey’s post does actually make more sense than you give him credit for, Fred.”

    I know, that’s what I said, he’s the one said it didn’t make sense.

    Someone from Britain can live in Portugal if they want to, someone from Portugal can live in Britain. Unfortunately that doesn’t apply to Russia.

    Personally I don’t much care how much money people have, if they are educated or what language they speak. Some of my best friends are poor uneducated people who can’t speak English.

  41. ” Just imagine that there is a reciprocate measure introduced by these countries for British business and/or a levy on tourists.”

    ” Touring musicians, actors, writers, visiting friends, families – unless they’re rich, they can stay away.”

    The naivety of some of the Murrayistas is truly breathtaking!

  42. Flaming June

    26 Jun, 2013 - 8:11 pm

    On my screen at 100% magnification, the list is about 7 ins long not 12 ins so you are exaggerating or perhaps you have enlarged text on yours.

    Work out the cost of visa for a Ghanaian whose minimum wage is 5.24 cedis a day when 5.24 cedis = £1.69 and you will see how exorbitant the price is.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

  43. Flaming June

    26 Jun, 2013 - 8:11 pm

    That was to Villager.

  44. Of course I was talking about the totality of the situation,thank you H. Fred,even,if I did go to live in Portugal they would’nt pay for my child’s education,and if you retired there and got seriously ill I’m pretty sure you’d be running back home to the NHS.
    I still do not think it makes sense not to take money from some foreigners who want to give it to us,and to give it to others for whom we can not reasonably be responsibe for,and for zero economic benefit to us.

  45. “Would you please post again and enlighten us? In the interests of pursuing a civilised and enlightening dialogue and discussion of course, as requested by Jon.”

    Since you are so keen for a discussion, I maybe should remind you again that it’s at least three times you said that you would respond to KOWN’s post about the accusation frequently made by yourself & one or two others, that there is a predominately ‘anti-West narrative’ here on this Board. I really think that as you often cite this as justification for the way you conduct yourself here, you should “man up” & engage, otherwise people will draw certain conclusions as to why you only want to debate with FJ/Mary.

    Here to help get you started is what KOWN posted;

    ““No, I genuinely don’t believe in the existence of the ‘anti-West narrative’ that you frequently inveigh against. I do think most posters on this thread are united by disgust and anger for much of what the West does, but that is not the same thing. As for the examples you cite – mistreatment of women in India, for example – I think the reason people don’t post on such issues is simply that these things are universally condemned and hardly worth the effort of pointing out on a forum where it can be tacitly assumed most people are on the same page. What gets people’s goat here, I submit without a trace of faux-naivety, is those instances where there is a chasm between the cruel things the west does and the way they are laundered and perfumed by such organs as the BBC.”

  46. Zero economic benefit to us … and other hastily posted unthoughtout responsive comments to previous postsz

  47. “Of course I was talking about the totality of the situation,thank you H. Fred,even,if I did go to live in Portugal they would’nt pay for my child’s education,and if you retired there and got seriously ill I’m pretty sure you’d be running back home to the NHS.
    I still do not think it makes sense not to take money from some foreigners who want to give it to us,and to give it to others for whom we can not reasonably be responsibe for,and for zero economic benefit to us.”

    As an EEC member you would be entitled to all the benefits the other residents of Portugal get which includes state education and health care.

    There are more things in life than money you know. Love of money is the root of all evil they say.

  48. He tried to but (ah butt) into what seemed to be essentially a private (if also public,as it were(catch 22ed al ee)) ‘conversation’ – but it seemed like as if a wasteof time, so he shut up(and changed identities, again).

  49. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    26 Jun, 2013 - 9:29 pm

    @ Flaming June

    “Work out the cost of visa for a Ghanaian whose minimum wage is 5.24 cedis a day when 5.24 cedis = £1.69 and you will see how exorbitant the price is.”
    ________

    I’ll consider this comment of yours which would addressed to Villager as also an answer to my request to you to explain why you posted the list of visa fees: you are saying that those fees are much too high.

    Firstly, thank you for engaging in discussion and let’s see if, the plunge taken, we can continue in a fruitful manner.

    If the minimum wage in Ghana is as low as that, it would obviously be quite difficult for someone on or only slightly above that wage to be able to afford a visa. But would you not then accept that it would be even more difficult for such a person to afford a return air ticket to the UK (air fares to Africa, from Europe, are excessively high by the way, as I’m sure Craig could confirm). If you accept the validity of this thought, then surely the question of the amount of the security deposit becomes rather academic, since such a person under such economic conditions would not be able to visit the UK anyway (and, by the by, would therefore not need a visa either)?

    If, on the other hand, the person is earning a ‘good’ salary by Ghanaian standards and able to afford the high airfare(s), then it would surely be the case that the visa fee and even the security deposit should not prove an insurmountable hurdle?

    It should be noted that the security deposit is refundable and I imagine that if the potential visitor cannot cough up the sum required from his own pocket ways and means are available or will be found for such a sum to to be made available to him (temporary personal loans from various sources, a bank bond, etc…)

    Lookinjg forward to reading you.

  50. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    26 Jun, 2013 - 9:35 pm

    I post this separately from my post to Flaming June so as not to create confusion which might stand in the way of a good discussion and fruitful interchange of ideas.

    Can somebody tell me if the £3000 security deposit will be required from nationals of all non-EU member states or only from certain countries? Judging from the comments on here it would appear to be the latter. Could someone please confirm and indicate which countries would fall under this requirement?

    Thank you in advance.

  51. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    26 Jun, 2013 - 9:51 pm

    Again, I post this separately as an aid to focussed discussion.

    As Craig knows full well (but perhaps some others do not), visa requirements work by nationality and not by place of residence. Craig also knows that citizens of Israel can travel to the UK and indeed to any other EU member state without a visa because Israel is not on the EU’s “common visa list” (itself part of the EU’s common visa régime), ie the list of countries whose nationals must have a visa to enter the space of the EU. The question of whether Israeli citizens are resident in pre-1967 Israel or in the occupied territories (or anywhere else for that matter) is irrelevant from a legal point of view in the matter of visas.

    BTW, I do hope that the use of Israel as an example will not have to unfortunate consequence of encouraging a flood of off-topic posts.

  52. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    26 Jun, 2013 - 9:55 pm

    @ Giles

    No, absolutely not; your post is the first I’ve heard of the LG Life is good TV. Is that the name of a TV model or is it LG’s general advertising slogan?

    My motto is firmly based on the film.

  53. Jives
    26 Jun, 2013 – 2:21 pm

    “Its a tilt at UKIP voters.”

    Yes, I agree Jives; the Tories are trying to out-UKIP UKIP before the next election.

    “Which will make more sense after Farage gets smeared at a time of the spooks choosing.”

    Cameron will have to move further to the right not only to outflank UKIP but to satisfy the unelected elite powers that really run the UK.

    If he doesn’t it will be he that gets smeared.

  54. OT Again

    Bluetooth range is normally stated as 100 metres max for a Class 1 Device. Potential “Class 0″ devices which use a more powerful transmitter and more sensitive receiver to increase the pair range to an existing class 1 Bluetooth (such as in a car) to about 1km, have been widely demonstrated and actually deployed in some applications (where legal).

    Not sure what the theoretical maximum is before timing might be a problem. I did see a claim it is about 10 miles in theory but short of reading the multiple Bluetooth levels specs I can’t confirm that.

    But it is definitely fairly easy, with readily available components, to Bluetooth pair with a car up to 1km away. With the very best equipment it might be quite a bit more than that.

    Well I thought it interesting anyway.

  55. “Can somebody tell me if the £3000 security deposit will be required from nationals of all non-EU member states or only from certain countries? ”

    This is a pilot scheme, starting in November, involving just the six countries listed by Craig. If successful it may well be extended to other nations.

    Labour twice proposed such a scheme but never implemented it. In the US it’s raised $18 million from over-stayers which suggests it’s more a sly tax on immigrants rather than a way of encouraging people not to stay.

  56. Flaming June
    26 Jun, 2013 – 3:42 pm

    Someone in reply seemed to think it was a perfectly reasonable move!

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/the-man-who-didnt-disappoint/#comment-414655

    It was he:

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    26 Jun, 2013 – 7:49 am

    “Foreigners of all kinds continue to be welcome but it is not unreasonable to expect them to respect the terms under which they were granted entry, is it?”

    “…to expect THEM (?)…to respect the terms under which they were granted entry…”

    THEM and US eh HB?

    What is unreasonable is to single out certain nationalities for disproportionate treatment in visa applications; that smacks of racism for political advantage.

  57. John Goss
    26 Jun, 2013 – 3:50 pm

    “I’ve raised a FOI request upon the Home Office regarding Abu Qatada in which I have tried to get figures of those arrested under anti-terrorism acts. It contains the following questions:”

    “Does the Home Office operate a system of racism (religionism if you like) against Islam?”

    Come on John that is a stupid question for a FOI request.

    Your other questions are ok.

  58. Jemand – Drone Target
    26 Jun, 2013 – 3:56 pm

    “Soon we will be asked to pay a bond to post comments here.”

    We do not accept Australian dollars.

  59. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    26 Jun, 2013 – 6:34 pm

    “Before reading further in this potentially very interesting thread and prhaps [sic] commenting further, could I ask – just to get basic positions clear – if there is anyone present who believes that there should be no immigration controls into the UK and/or that there is no problem of so-called over-staying?”

    A loaded question HB that deserves to be ignored.

    Deregulation of markets and the free movement of capital and labour is what the neo-liberal globalists want is it not?

    Paradoxically the neo-con neo-lib globalists want to control the free movement of labour (not capital); too many immigrants here not enough there; restrictions put in place here but not there.

    They want to have their cake and eat it.

  60. Everyone knows that all our economic problems are caused by these darkies and not the corrupt banksters and their lackies in politics and the press. Bravo to the Fuhrer on this one, and three cheers to Deputy Fuhrer Gideon for staying up late and working (instead of snorting coke with prostitues), he didn’t even have a proper dinner, now that’s what I call sacrifice. We should all be ashamed for not being like these supermen.

  61. Habbabkuk is a ‘professional’ poster, a kind of gatekeeper, herding the conversation away from any embarrassing and awkward truths and towards more ‘media friendly’ territory (i.e. the official line). A quick scan of his previous contributions will bear this out, he is at least consistent.

  62. “This is a pilot scheme, starting in November, involving just the six countries listed by Craig. If successful it may well be extended to other nations.”

    Please define ‘success’ in this context, and tell us how it will be measured.

  63. Just got in after a long day under the sky.
    Skipped through the thread and found a new arrival.

    @ David

    Welcome to Wonderland, where the real and surreal constantly mingle.

    You may be bemused by the reception you received at 5 46pm. Please don’t let it discourage you.

    The ecology of these threads is stranger than most mortals could have imagined, but there are rare treasures freely shared and a unique virtual community that lurches magnificently from highly informative through to insanely delusional at a pace that would stretch the understanding of a genius.

    You arrive in the middle of a bun-fight and have been mistaken for me, the (some say) disgraced Kibo and my former alter ego (sock-puppet) Sofia, the now retired fictional 13 and a half year old daughter of one of the blog’s most regular commenters.

    This accounts for the rather unexpected welcome you received:

    “Villager. 5 37pm

    I have it reliably that the sock-puppet Kibo Noh has now turned up as ‘David’. Expect a strong rebuttal. But, Jon, perhaps you can double-check this and confirm? This time more promptly and clearly?”

    If you wish to understand why you now stand accused of being me you will get a flavour of things on the “Preparing to Bomb Syria” and “Work for the UN” threads.

    I urge you not to take things too personally. Keep your passion. Challenge false narratives and try to avoid trading insults. Many of us are serial failures on that score, but take it from me, who has fallen into that hole enough times to speak from experience, life here improves when that stuff is left behind. Above all don’t take us all too seriously.

    Jon, the moderator has a difficult and largely thankless task, but aside from the occasional purge on our postings, he leaves the threads to evolve in all their anarchic spendour.

    I wish you well and look forward to more glimpses into the world from your perspective.

    I offer you two links which, if you have not already read them, may provide insight into some of what goes on here.

    Pages 8 and 9: http://www.scribd.com/doc/53789685/Hasbara-Handbook-Promoting-Israel-on-Campus

    and

    http://www.mepc.org/articles-commentary/speeches/hasbara-and-control-narrative-element-strategy

    Peace.

  64. We are charging £3,000- we hope you enjoy your
    stay. You are free to move around, please join all of us.
    As always respect our laws, fellow passengers are our responsibility.

    Deck chairs to be kept in current designated areas.

    Our Captain will be on hand shortly.

    HMS Socrates!

  65. Yuvall Eichhhhhmann

    27 Jun, 2013 - 3:38 am

  66. Yuval Eichhhhhhhhhhman

    27 Jun, 2013 - 4:10 am

    And don’t say it’s racist, either, it’s not! We need it to level the playing field. We’re all shooting blanks here. My little Yuvals can barely make it down the chute. Got carried away with the depleted uranium when we were exterminating Palestinians, and now we’re all dying out, http://www.palestinercs.org/en/adetails.php?aid=11
    At this rate we’re going to have to start proselytizing door-to-door like Jehovah’s Witnesses. When you shake a Palestinian silly it only lasts for a couple days, so it takes a lot of manpower to keep ‘em all brain-damaged. And those bulldozers don’t drive themselves! The winsome human-rights activists just keep coming no matter how flat you squash ‘em.

  67. According to Doug Scorgie (protected asset) the word ‘them’ is now connotative of xenophobia. Could he suggest another pluralistic pronoun to replace this offensive word so that we can refer to a specific group of people without offending his racial sensibilities?

    It’s a pity he also won’t accept Australian dollars. Euphemistically racist? Only he knows for certain.

  68. To be fair our language is use is always ambiguous.

    Much the same as history can be taken as symbolic.

    Where we are now spiritualy and demographicaly, should see us set precedents to past teachings to encompass all our elders teachings.

    Considering knowledge on a scientific basis to be limited to the lab, teachings should remain a useful tool to continue creativity.

    ‘Them’ being one.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah's_Ark

  69. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 7:50 am

    @ Doug Scorgie

    Still endeavouring to maintain civilised and enlightening discourse, I’d like to make a couple of points in reply to your two posts (above). BTW, I’d be very happy if other regular commenters, including of course Flaming June, were to join the discussion.

    re your post at 23h21 :

    1/. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to use the pronoun “them” to denote a different group of people already identified (Jemand makes the same point at 06h41) rather than to repeat a series of nouns once again. But if you can find a different way, do please suggest it and I’m sure it’ll be taken on board.

    2/. I doubt if this is a racist measure, although it is very probably an attempt to meet a popular perception from which UKIP is seeking to draw profit.

    The list of countries which will be affected at a first stage has been kindly supplied by Kempe. On the assumption that sensible govts take measures with the intention that thy should succeed, it would follow that the UK authorities have come to the conclusion that the 6 countries concerned are seen as a particular risk as far as over-staying is concerned. I could imagine that the language factor and the presence of substantial communities from those countries in the UK already (including, possibly, family members) lend weight to that assessment of the risk. So, to repeat, I don’t think racism is a direct factor here.

    re. your response at 00h19:

    With great respect, I’m rather doubtful about your reaction here, because accusing a question of being ‘loaded’ in order to avoid answering doesn’t really help to advance a discussion and understanding of a theme, does it?

    The two questions I asked seem rather fundamental to any discussion of the theme and no reasonable person should be reluctant to give an answer, surely? So I hope that you’ll think again about your refusal and (I hope with others) come back to those two questions.

    Thank you.

  70. Habbabkuk 7.50am.

    So if it’s not direct racism then might it be indirect racism aimed at the Little Englander demographic?

    Either way it leaves a sour taste and i can’t believe for a moment the Tory strategists would have somehow missed either potential dimension.

  71. Habbabkuk 7.59.

    Enough already of the teacher’s pet routine.

    Jon will mod as he sees fit i’ve no doubt.

    Did you used to grass other kids up at school for smoking behind the bike shed?

  72. Flaming June

    27 Jun, 2013 - 8:25 am

    In Amerika.

    Published on Tuesday, June 25, 2013 by The Progressive

    A Shameful Supreme Court Ruling on Voting Rights
    by Matthew Rothschild

    In its 5-4 decision along partisan lines, the conservative majority tossed out the Act’s insistence that nine mostly Southern states and a few other cities and counties with a history of racial discrimination must get pre-clearance from the federal government before changing their voting laws.

    Justice Roberts, writing for the majority, called the relevant section “unconstitutional” and the (Photo: SEIU International/ Flickr)calculus outdated.

    But what’s really unconstitutional is the way that many Republican-dominated states are already raising barriers to voting, barriers that are aimed at African Americans, other minorities, and other groups that vote disproportionately Democratic.

    [..]

    But much, much more seriously, the result will be an impairment of our democracy—and once again a racist one.

    http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/06/25-6

  73. “Bluetooth range is normally stated as 100 metres max for a Class 1 Device.”

    My transistor radio will pick up reception from a transmitter a hundred miles away.

    It doesn’t work at all in my car. That’s why you see all those cars with aerials on the outside of them for the radios.

  74. Doug Scorgie 26 June at 11.41 pm.

    ““Does the Home Office operate a system of racism (religionism if you like) against Islam?”

    It is only a stupid question insomuch as everybody knows the H.O. does operate a system of racism, but they are not going to admit it. The two following questions reveal the answer anyway. We have Acts to protect groups of people from Racism and legislation for Religion and Belief equality.

    http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/about-us/vision-and-mission/our-business-plan/religion-belief-equality/

    The Home Office and all other government departments should be free from discrimination against race and religion. I believe with this FOI and a similar one I raised with the same questions to the FCO regarding rendition and extradition the departments are going to have to change or someone with the right legal expertise will take them to task. Perhaps in their deportation of Trenton Oldfield they are trying to redress the imbalance so they can answer my question.

    http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/theresa-may-home-office-stop-the-deportation-of-trenton-oldfield?utm_campaign

  75. Don’t look at us, the undeserving rich not paying tax and destroying the welfare state. Instead, look there’s a darkie coming for your job!

  76. The question of bonds payable by Israelis, lack of, was raised in Craig’s post, so I assume it is completely legitimate to point to this:

    http://israel.usembassy.gov/consular/niv/nonimmigrant.html

    I wonder how many Israelis are currently working illegally in this country? Sightings of stalls selling Dead Sea products, eg, welcomed…

  77. I saw the irony in the juxtaposition of these two links on the BBC UK website on the day after Gideon’s AUSTERITY announcements.

    Payday loans in competition inquiry
    The Office of Fair Trading refers the payday lending industry to the competition authorities over “deep-rooted problems”.

    Queen’s income to rise by 5% in 2014
    The Queen will receive a 5% rise in her income next year after the Crown Estate, from which she is paid, reported an increase in its profits.

    Sky News is now full of ads for payday loans, Wonga, Quick Quid etc. and when the racing from Ascot was on Channel 4, you could not tell the difference between the live transmission and the ads from W Hill, Ladbrokes, Paddy Power, BetFred, Bet this, Bet that which kept appearing in the transmission. There were no actual ad breaks as such.

    One of the Cameron advisers recently left to join Wonga as their lobbyist. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/9642807/David-Camerons-senior-adviser-leaves-to-lobby-for-Wonga.html

    This morning on Radio 4 Today it was appalling to hear Vilderberger Balls (remember him on the stage at the Trafalgar Square Israel 60th birthday celebrations?) agreeing with Gideon’s plan to extend the waiting time to obtain benefit after becoming unemployed from 3 days to 7 days, It has been condemned by the TUC as cruel. Balls would not support Frances O’Grady. There is no Labour partei. We only have one partei now. Fascism in action.

    ‘Here’s Frances O’Grady, the TUC general secretary, on the SR.
    This is a toxic mix of bad economics, nasty politics and dishonest presentation.

    The last thing our struggling economy needs is further cuts to spending to try to close a deficit made worse by the Chancellor’s earlier cuts. When the medicine is not working and side effects are choking the patient you need a change in treatment not more of the same.

    Many services will be hard hit. Worst of all is a new attack on some of the most vulnerable in our society through the seven day wait and other conditions for social security payments. The chancellor may think attacks on welfare go down well with voters, but these will lead to parents not having enough cash to feed their children.’
    Guardian live blog yesterday

    PS Gideon was photographed with burger and chips and diet Coke two nights ago, whilst working on his plans. The photo op has backfired as it has been leaked that his burger was not the usual MacDonald’s £1.99 jobbie but one costing £10 from a local up market place near Whitehall.

    Austerity for some. They are all in IT together.

    PPS Nadine Dorries has announced that she will no longer claim for personal expenditure but will rely on her MP’s salary. This follows from the pressure she is under from her gains from Oz jungle rubbish. Doubtless she will continue to enjoy freebies such as trips to entities like Israel.

    Cylinder head gaskets are still blowing on the dregs of the Work for the UN thread!

  78. Ethnic cleansing of E. Jerusalem continues – just in time to scupper any idea of peace:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/26/us-palestinians-israel-settlements-idUSBRE95P18A20130626

    …as promised.

  79. Israel owns the Tory Party. Israel also owns large chunks of Labour and the LibDems, so you can say they own the UK parliament.

  80. Tech Savage at 12.44 a.m. “Watchman” I think rather than “Gatekeeper”.

  81. “Cylinder head gaskets are still blowing on the dregs of the Work for the UN thread!”

    Don’t be silly, Mary. There’s nobody blowing a gasket there at all.

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/work-for-the-un/comment-page-5/#comment-414809

  82. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/26/official-dutch-report-calls-for-break-with-uncritical-approach-to-israel.html

    The report’s analysis and policy recommendations were truly surprising, running counter to more than 40 years of uncritical pro-Israel policies of successive Dutch governments. Yet the international press did not make much of it. Now that the text has been translated and made available in English and French on the Council’s website, the important shift it represents should become more widely known.

    Hope springs eternal: here’s the report, to save you clicking -

    http://www.aiv-advies.nl/ContentSuite/upload/aiv/doc/webversie_AIV83_ENG%281%29.pdf

    No need to click on the “How to Spot A Sociopath” popup, either. Simply look to the left of this comment for his portrait.

  83. Giles
    26 Jun, 2013 – 8:06 pm

    “The naivety of some of the Murrayistas is truly breathtaking!”

    How so?

    You don’t explain.

  84. Sayanim ensemble
    27 Jun, 2013 – 7:23 am

    “…damned muzzies…” “…wog immigration…”

    I suggest this language should not be tolerated on this blog.

    I do not believe in 100% freedom of speech.

  85. Spending review was a manifestation that the Tory’s still target the poor and the elderly, well, not all.
    The richest woman on earth, who could pay off our national debt tomorrow, gets a 5% hike from the Crown estate.

    Now much of their profits come from us the taxpayer, via large wind power installations in the North sea, so we get fleeced properly, i.e. twice.

    Do explain Giles, when you say ‘“The naivety of some of the Murrayistas is truly breathtaking!”

    Do you mean Bill Murray?, Murray mints?, Andy Murray?

  86. Dreolin, that link is the most annoying I’ve clicked on. Audio adverts turn themselves on without any perceivable way of shutting them up.

    However all cars are probably being built with cyber-technology giving the manufacturers and their approved proxies the ability to override user capability, as with phones, computers &c and their service hosts. The message is “behave yourself and you will have no problems”. Those of us who choose to disobey can prepare for a bumpy ride. Or choose not to use the technology. I often leave my phone at home on purpose. I’m teaching myself to live without it. Whether that is how they killed Michael Hastings is impossible to know.

  87. John Goss 12.06pm,

    Interesting post John.

    I can foresee a time in the not too distant future where it will be a crime for a citizen not to carry a smartphone etc..

    They can certainly,at present,be used as listening,watching and locating devices.

    God knows what they’ll be like in the future.

  88. “that link is the most annoying I’ve clicked on. Audio adverts turn themselves on without any perceivable way of shutting them up.”

    Yes, John, but it’s happening all over the place. I click on a link and it turns out that the web page has a video embedded and it’s set to auto-run. So I can’t scroll down the page to read it until that’s finished loading. And then the plug-in decides to fail … It’s a pain in the neck. It seems that some sites have decided that folks just *can’t* read any more, so they have to be given a video or audio version of everything. (I just flick my sound off.)

    As for Michael Hastings, I was suspicious from the get go. It’s interesting to see someone like Richard Clark confirm that interference with his car was far from impossible. But of course any evidence will have been burned to a cinder.

  89. I don’t have an iPhone and I’m not getting one … and I leave my old Motorola at home most of the time.

  90. Jives, the prospect for future generations is frightening. And to think we were encouraged not to go to the Soviet Union because we might be followed by the KGB.

    I don’t have any loyalty cards either. If they want to know what I eat and drink they can ask me. And I’ll tell them. But taking that information without asking is a kind of theft.

  91. people, Adblocker works.

    doug: the repulsive language stuff is from someone already banned, i think we’ll find.

  92. And of course Dreolin and Jives, all SatNav systems have unique identification numbers which like computers, which is what they are, individual movements can be traced. There need to be new laws protecting consumers from this kind of intrusion.

  93. Re Michael Hastings,

    If there was manipulation over,say,WiFi or Bluetooth i’m sure the NSA and GCHQ will have pulled that out the ether to store away for ever…

    Complete capture of every transfer of a digital footprint is,after all,their remit.

  94. Adblocker works. Yes. Also try NoScript. The sayanim/eichmannn thing is probably a regurgitation of English Knight (etc) and as someone has already said, an attempt to discredit the blog. As much of its stuff is overtly and genuinely antisemitic, I’d say there’s a case for its deletion on sight.

  95. ‘For example, all of those countries supplied large numbers of men to British armed forces in two World Wars; with little resulting gratitude.’

    Err… except that, in the case of India, large numbers of their citizenry who initially took the King’s shilling subsequently switched sides and fought for the Greater East Asia Co Prosperity Sphere. Subhas Chandra Bose, their leader, was for a time more popular with radical Indian nationalists than the Mahatma.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Army

    Other than that, Jemand’s comment @7.45pm yesterday is pretty spot on.

  96. SatNavs: I read that they broadcast while you’re on the move, but they don’t store old data, i.e. previous journeys.

    Don’t have one and don’t want one.

    And I’ll be off Windoze by Christmas – I heard a rumour. :)

    I’m supposed to be tidying this room … heh …

  97. I made the puffed up Bilderberger Balls sound like a Wildebeest there. But apt, a herd animal which migrates to find better pastures.

    http://www.theyworkforyou.com/regmem/?p=11740
    The Co-Op are stupid enough to fund him. Price Waterhouse there too, the Folletts and on his most recenthttp://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/edward_balls/morley_and_outwood#register
    Bloomberg and the Limited Liability Partnership whatever that is.

    Partial to a bit of triple flipping
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5325590/Ed-Balls-and-Yvette-Cooper-flipped-homes-three-times-MPs-expenses.html

    and claiming for travel for their kids.
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/233033/Probe-into-Ed-Balls-14k-expenses-for-children

    There is no end to the Balls/Cooper troughing.

  98. The Church of England has no intention of following in the steps of Christ by casting the moneylernders out of the temple. They are buying the temples and the moneylenders.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1108747/church-of-england-backs-1bn-rbs-branches-bid

    Trust that Justin is enjoying his visit to the mother country on his ME tour and I wonder how the Rev Stephen Sizer is getting on. Details within this rant.

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/13462#.Ucwngq9wb4Y

  99. My transistor radio will pick up reception from a transmitter a hundred miles away.

    It doesn’t work at all in my car. That’s why you see all those cars with aerials on the outside of them for the radios.

    Not sure what point you are making here Fred. Well other than you have crappy radios or your personal car is a Faraday Cage like tank :-) Of course an external area is better but with many cars having the bluetooth antenna integrated into or close to the windscreen – reception is fine inside or outside the car.

    If your point was about range, I have no doubt that the NASA Deep Space Network dishes could pickup car bluetooth even if said car was on the moon. They couldn’t pair with it though no matter how much transmitter power they directed at it thanks to speed of light delays.

    The reason I am thinking bluetooth is that an incoming cellular connection will be logged by the network. Unless you have your own cellular base-station of course and can convince the car to roam onto your fake network but that would likely have half the neighborhood connecting to your base station which would also leave a trace. Built in car wifi could also be an attack possibility but cracking bluetooth is much easier.

  100. Jives, I certainly don’t believe they are recording all bluetooth and wifi everywhere all the time. Wide band recorders certainly exist but unless one was nearby (relatively) with a directional antenna the signal you were looking for would be buried by other closer signals on the same set of frequencies and there is a limit to the ability to dis-entangle that.

  101. I’ve deleted the “damned muzzies”/”wog immigration” post. I’d seen it earlier, though it was quite clear the phrases were used sarcastically. However I suspect it was from our old friend English Knight, who has a history of anti-Jewish racism, but doesn’t ever take part in discussions. Thus, it is gone.

  102. Anon,

    All digital transfers will be logged on your device and uploaded regularly to those interested i’d imagine.

    There’s always a footprint.

    Always.

  103. Jives, I certainly don’t believe they are recording all … wifi everywhere all the time

    That’s the job of the Google Streetcar, surely ;)

  104. Dreoilin,

    Yes it is interesting that a number of experts in the field are saying that they believe the Hastings crash is consistent with a cyber attack. I notice in the crash photos the car front wheel (the one you can see) appears to be pointing straight ahead. I’d be interested to know if steering lock was engaged.

    That said a clever attacker would use the car’s collision detect system to trigger steering unlock to remove the evidence as it crashed.

    I did read a comment from someone claiming to have worked on the design of even newer car collision avoidance systems. Said they had fun playing with the simulators where they created Kamikaze cars by having them slam into the detected obstacle. Easy to do on a real car fitted with that system they claimed.

    Personally I’d be tempted to install a physical cutoff switch if I owned one of these too clever for your own good cars.

    By the way if you still have steering control but no brakes and the car running flat out and you can’t get it out of gear, the advice seems to be throw the steering into full lock (left or right). It won’t be pleasant but chances are greater that you will live. So goes the claim anyway.

  105. Thanks for your explanation on the UN thread and for clearing up the mess above.

  106. Jives,

    Yes there would be a stored record in the car of the bluetooth pairing if it physically survived. However all evidence of this can be wiped in the huge amount of time you have (in computer terms to a real-time operating system) between initiating a crash and loss of function of the hardware. Other devices in the area are not likely to have any record of a pairing not involving them unless someone was actively sniffing.

    Jon,

    Yes, Google still thinks one of my wifi routers is 2 miles away as that’s where it happened to be at the time when the Google street car passed by.5

  107. Anon,

    I’m sure many interested agencies would have been most feverishly sniffing around Michael Hastings,and had been since he busted a couple of 4 Star Generals…

  108. @ Suhayl Saadi– 26 June 6.47PM re “We all know there are rackets. I don’t think this measure will stop those at all. It’ll just stop the honest people.”

    Quite so. The measure is a sign of an incompetent bureaucracy / government that has given up trying to control its own borders despite being an island. So it resorts to silly measures whose sole purpose is to con the public into believing that their government is on top of the situation. It may stop the honest people while making things easier for the rackets since the bureaucracy may want to believe that the Bond is the new control measure; thus giving them an excuse to be even more lethargic (and less accountable) than at present. If I were a businessman affected by this bond, I would be looking to take my business elsewhere.

  109. Do you mean Bill Murray?, Murray mints?, Andy Murray?

    No he means Douglas Murray.

    See what you made me do!

    Damn I have to wash my keyboard and screen for typing and printing the secret name of the Beelzebub.

  110. Jives,

    It is certainly possible that some records exist if he was a specific target for collection (which seems highly possible). It might even be possible his car mic was on and transmitting away over the cellular network at impact as such hacks have been demonstrated. Heck it is entirely theoretically possible to have multiple taps into the car at the same time over cell by different agencies – only limited by bandwidth.

    But still I think Bluetooth seems a good bet if you have to do it with a moving car and want the best chance of not getting caught.

  111. Anon,

    The people/agencies who did the hit-if it was a hit-are exactly the same people/agencies who get to do the investigation.

    Perfect cover for not getting caught as you can take the investigation in whichever direction yo want i.e. destroy all incrimiating evidence against yourself.

  112. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 2:42 pm

    @ Jives

    “Habbabkuk 7.50am.

    So if it’s not direct racism then might it be indirect racism aimed at the Little Englander demographic?

    Either way it leaves a sour taste and i can’t believe for a moment the Tory strategists would have somehow missed either potential dimension.”
    ___________

    Thank you for that. The sentence I used in my post was “I doubt if this is a racist measure..” and I intended it to cover both direct and indirect racism.

    Now, the govts’s intended measure may well leave a sour taste in the mouth of some and a sweet taste in the mouth of others, but I think it would be more constructive and in the spirit of this blog to focus discussion on the issue itself and leave questions of individual’s reactions on the side for the time being. I’m sure you would also thing in this spirit.

    I’ll post some more substantive comments later today to complement the substantive comments I’ve already made and I look forward to lots of interesting and informative participation from
    you and other members of this community.

    See you later!

  113. Jives,

    Well certainly elements connected with those doing the investigation could be responsible and may have opportunity but that tends to leave at least suspicions with local police and other investigating agents not connected with causing the crash, if they see evidence of a cover-up. Let’s see where this goes.

    Btw,

    I went back to check video filmed just after the crash. Witness Jose Rubalcava was asked within minutes of the crash to estimate the car’s speed when it first passed him. In the later interview I linked earlier he said “as fast as it could possibly go” (in Spanish). At the time he said (In English) “Over 100 mph” which is consistent with his later interview.

  114. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 2:56 pm

    Can I just say that I’m rather astonished, after the recent discussions about this blog and some of its commenters, to find that many of today’s comments are about issues which appear to have nothing to do with the theme of this thread : a lot about whether cars can be guided electronically by someone else and quite a lot of the UK govt’s latest financial and economic proposals and Israel , and then Ed Balls and his wife?

    I’m afraid that if this continues, there is a risk that this thread will be disrupted and derailed , and that would be a pity because the subject is interesting .Could I please ask those concerned to focus on the subject of this thread and avoid posting extraneous material?

    Thank you.

  115. doug scorgie

    27 Jun, 2013 - 3:06 pm

    Fred
    26 Jun, 2013 – 8:03 pm

    “Some of my best friends are poor uneducated people who can’t speak English.”

    Which languages do they speak and how do you communicate with them?

    Only asking.

  116. “Not sure what point you are making here Fred.”

    Easy, car bluetooth devices are not designed to be used at any distance and I don’t believe they can be.

    It would be a simple matter for a state security service or even a large security company to rig a car’s control units without any of the fantasy island stuff. They just look up the key’s pseudo random number seed off the database they no doubt have and plug into the diagnostics port.

  117. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 3:09 pm

    @ Doug Scorgie

    Grunts? :)

  118. doug scorgie

    27 Jun, 2013 - 3:16 pm

    O/T but news not covered by the UK media as far as I can find:

    NATO expansion?

    “Yesterday representatives of Colombia and the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) signed an agreement for cooperation and exchange of classified information, “good practice” in the “anti-terrorist” struggle, and against drug trafficking.”

    http://venezuelanalysis.com/

    Also see:

    http://www.theprisma.co.uk/2013/06/17/washington-and-its-offensive-to-reorganize-and-regain-its-backyard/

  119. Easy, car bluetooth devices are not designed to be used at any distance and I don’t believe they can be.

    Fred,

    Believe what you want but you are wrong.

    http://www.sans.edu/research/security-laboratory/article/bluetooth

    Dispelling Common Bluetooth Misconceptions

    Sep 19th, 2007
    Joshua Wright

    Misconception 1: “Bluetooth is a short-range technology”

    …By soldering on an external antenna cable, the range of a Bluetooth Class 1 dongle can be extended, allowing an attacker to connect to class 2 devices (intended for a range of 10 meters) from a range of over a mile.

    And car’s are generally even more powerful Class 1 not Class 2. It is no problem at all to bluetooth pair with a car a mile away. The maximum claim I have seen is 10 miles but I cannot verify that.

  120. What you need is a meaningful occupation*, Hubba – try this:

    http://www.staggeringbeauty.com/

    *not an illegal one, natch.

  121. Flaming June at 12.56 p.m. No doubt those links of yours account for why I never got a response from Lambeth Palace about Theresa May’s racism. On 15 March I wrote:

    “My church since 2002 has been All Saints, Small Heath. It is a good inner-city church set in a largely Muslim community. At Christmas the mosque opposite the church brought gifts (3 large boxes of Ferrero Rocher chocolates). It was almost as humbling as the stable itself. Our Home Secretary had recently extradited 5 Muslims to Supermax torture chambers in the US. What Theresa May espouses is not a Christian message yet she claims to be an Anglican. I know we should not judge. I know we should pray for our leaders. Unfortunately I have the same respect for her as Jesus had for the usurers at the temple who turned our father’s house into a den of thieves. Therefore I cannot stay silent over the wedge she is driving through our communities. With the deepest respect, neither should you.

    I have attacked her Christianity in my latest article for News Junkie Post.

    http://newsjunkiepost.com/2013/03/14/big-sister-theresa-may-and-the-rise-of-anti-islam-in-the-uk/

    And on 13 May I wrote even more strongly about the church’s tacit support for drones.

    “When I Google ‘Archbishop’ and ‘Drones’ Desmond Tutu keeps cropping up with a clear condemnation of the evil use of these devices (drones) to kill people thousands of miles away from the comfort and safety of an air-conditioned office, but there appears to be no message from Lambeth Palace, from the Anglican church, or from yourself. As an Anglican myself (All Saints, Small Heath, Birmingham) I should like to know what my church’s views are in a clear unequivocal statement. It is inconceivable that a Christian church condones the use of drones, but I live in a world which never ceases to surprise me. If there is no statement from Lambeth Palace I can only assume that the silence gives tacit support for these killing machines. Silence is complicity. Jesus stopped the stoning of a woman caught in the act of adultery with a clear statement. You are his disciple. I call on you to speak in similarly Christian terms.

    I realise you cannot answer every question raised by every person who contacts you, but your office has yet to answer one of my emails and this is a matter of life and death.”

    I think in my heart I am a Quaker.

  122. And car’s are generally even more powerful Class 1 not Class 2. It is no problem at all to bluetooth pair with a car a mile away. The maximum claim I have seen is 10 miles but I cannot verify that.

    Why 10 miles? All is needed is a model airplane as a relay station.

    Authorities said in a statement that the investigation is focusing on two men of Tunisian origin. They are suspected of having sought to acquire information and equipment necessary to carry out “radical Islamist explosive attacks using remote controlled airplanes,”

    German Police Shoot Down Model Plane Terror Plot

    Does this mean soon all the toy shops and craft shops will have a security guard frisking the punters, and checking their carrier bags and interrogating them;

    Why do they need a model airplane?

    Do you intend to loan the model airplane to anyone?

    Do you know any Muslims?

    Have you ever been a Muslim, or are you intending to become a Muslim?

    McCarthy does not get a look in.

  123. Flaming June

    27 Jun, 2013 - 4:01 pm

    Welcome to the world and South Africa Mr President.

    South Africa High Court War Crimes Case against US President Barack Obama
    By Global Research News
    Global Research, June 27, 2013

    Lawyers will continue to pursue the case against Obama in the courts

    The Muslim Lawyers Association (MLA) brought an application to court on Tuesday, 25 June 2013, to charge US President Barack Obama with a number of crimes, before he enters South Africa on Friday, 28 June 2013.

    /..

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/south-africa-high-court-war-crimes-case-against-us-president-barack-obama/5340594

  124. Flaming June

    27 Jun, 2013 - 4:16 pm

    It will make a change if Obama follows ‘legal channels’ in the light of Kill By Drone policy.

    This is on his hunt for Edward Snowden.

    Obama refuses to barter for Edward Snowden
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23084166

    ‘Speaking on a visit to the West African nation of Senegal, Mr Obama also said the case would be dealt with through routine legal channels.’

    I did not know you could barter for human bodies. I thought it applied to goods and inanimate objects, namely:

    Definition of BARTER
    intransitive verb
    : to trade by exchanging one commodity for another

    transitive verb
    : to trade or exchange by or as if by bartering .

  125. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 4:18 pm

    I don’t know what to make of Richard Clarke. That statement was on Debka and Alex Jones, when i saw it yesterday. I can’t tell what role he is playing; middleman?

    General Alexander invoked MacArthur the other day and I wonder wtf he was trying to say.

    A civilian controlled (heh, theoretically) military sticks in a lot of throats. Petraeus, McChrystal?

  126. Ben,

    This is the original source for the Clarke quote although you’ve probably already seen it – http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/24/michael-hastings-car-hacked_n_3492339.html

    “I’m not a conspiracy guy. In fact, I’ve spent most of my life knocking down conspiracy theories,” said Clarke, who ran afoul of the second Bush administration when he criticized the decision to invade Iraq after 9/11. “But my rule has always been you don’t knock down a conspiracy theory until you can prove it [wrong]. And in the case of Michael Hastings, what evidence is available publicly is consistent with a car cyber attack. And the problem with that is you can’t prove it.”

    Clarke said the Los Angeles Police Department likely wouldn’t have the expertise to trace such an attack. “I think you’d probably need the very best of the U.S. government intelligence or law enforcement officials to discover it.”

  127. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 4:27 pm

    I saw something wrt Elise Jordan, Hastings widow yesterday but it was a cryptic few words.

    Then there’s this; http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/06/25/wife-hastings-wasnt-reporting-on-jill-kelley/

    She’s a journalist, and I thought she would be out front on the COD and his whereabouts that morning. Weird.

  128. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 4:35 pm

    Yes, Anon. Salon, a big Obot hangout, is dissing the theory, but with the same available facts.

    It’s a trust issue, or anti-conspiracy, which is a kind of reverse conspiracy theory.

    http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=richard+clarke+books&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

    Clarke may just be previewing and promoting a new book.

  129. Passerby,

    Some of the increasingly affordable multi rotor things can autonomously hold station with GPS, act as a relay and downlink live video. Will fly back to home base on its own if it has to.

    You can order for immediate delivery.

  130. Flaming June

    27 Jun, 2013 - 4:40 pm

    This is ‘leafy Surrey’ in Poison Gove’s constituency, Quite telling? But of course, we are all IT together.

    http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/s/2135671_citizens_advice_bureau_sees_big_rise_in_benefit_calls

    Gove’s constituency is next to Hunt’s which is next to Milton’s, then Raab and Lord. In fact the whole of Surrey is Tory controlled.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Parliamentary_constituencies_in_Surrey

    The Guildford Tories are being coy about their dinner for Liam Fox the other night. No photos on their website and no press report. Are they ashamed to admit they invited him to be a guest speaker?

  131. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 4:42 pm

    After SCOTUS stole the last 3 days headlines with VRA shutdown and ending DOMA, the continental media and bloggers are all about that.

    All politics is local.

    Where are the hard-core investigatory journalists/bloggers?

    ‘Out to lunch’ is the sign on the door, but in the backroom, masturbatory exercises reign.

  132. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 4:43 pm

    This kind of investigation can’t be conducted from the keyboard.

    Some genuine shoe-leather needs to be sacrificed.

  133. Ben,

    Yes.Interesting times indeed when a former anti-terrorist tsar begins to sound like a tin-foil hat alumni…

    Many formerly immobile positions are being re-defined and difficult choices are being made.

    Divisions are growing and omerta beginning to crack amongst the 33rd degree crew.

    This has got a long way to run yet…

  134. Ben 4.42pm,

    Any chance you can decrypt those US acronyms for us limeys?

    Cheers :.)

  135. Ben,

    It’s OK no need…i’ve found them out.

    Thanks.

  136. Bozo Agonistes

    27 Jun, 2013 - 5:19 pm

    Ha ha, legal channels. Snowden’s perils-of-Pauline plotline is holding the world’s attention nicely as the humiliation mounts for the Alexander junta and its cringing rubber-stamp legislature.

    Putin’s practically strangling with suppressed delight at being able to uphold Helsinki Accords Basket III principles on freedom of movement against the US police state. The US beat Russia over the head with Basket III for more than a decade.

    And as for Ecuador, “Ecuador has signed all the human rights instruments of the Hemisphere and is fully committed to the rule of law and the fundamental principles of international law.” Them’s fightin’ words for a state like the US that shits on the CCPR, runs from the CESCR, has disgraced the OAS nearly out of existence, and resorted to neo-Soviet obstruction to escape the Rome Statute. US government Big Shots – all they got is the threat of economic sanctions that are themselves illegal under UN Charter Articles 33 and 41.

    China, Hongkong, Venezuela, Germany, and Cuba got their licks in, variously citing US violations of the law on privacy, torture, freedom of information, and foreign interference. It’s almost cruel, like baiting a chained, toothless, declawed bear.

    Impotent. Discredited. A laughingstock. USA! USA! USA!

  137. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 5:33 pm

    Jives; I’m not completely discounting the sincerity of Clarke. Snowden was in the fold, and saw the light emanating from a tiny crack. It’s just difficult to assign credibility with so many players whose heart condition is speculative. Motive is a hard one to call with such little info.

    Bozo; Putin is having a grand time with it, for sure. He’s the godfather of his criminal state, and he’s liking the company of the US.

  138. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 5:36 pm

    I’m sure Greenwald is taking steps. This cautionary tale is the MO for repression.
    (JIves; MO-method of operation :)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb

  139. This just to show what one has to put up with in Norfolk. This is the non football section of the Pink Un forum, a hotbed of Canary fans who now and then get bored stiff over politics.

    This from JG on the subject of Edward Snowden and the NSA/GCHQ spying on us issue. we clash over issues such as immigration and religion and and….often, JG thinks that he’s the police man on the Pink’Un. His rider is priceless.

    “I have been thinking about all this Big Brother malarky and have come to the conclusion that it’s a good thing.

    I believe that everyone should be micro-chipped as it has huge advantages;

    If you are in an accident and have no ID on you the paramedics just need to scan your microchip to retrieve your medical details from the NHS database.

    If the microchips are linked into Satellite trackers crime would be reduced overnight and all those illegal immigrants would not be able to move without being rounded up and deported.

    I don’t know why the Government does not push ahead with this technology, as a law-abiding citizen I’m all for it.
    ——————————————————-
    Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design.

    http://services.pinkun.com/forums/pinkun/cs/forums/2/2932481/ShowPost.aspx#2932481

  140. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 6:09 pm

    Technically they weren’t lying (Clapper et al) when they protested ‘We’re not listening to your phone calls or reading all your emails”

    Present tense, notwithstanidng.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/27/nsa-data-mining-authorised-obama

    “”The internet metadata collection program authorized by the Fisa court was discontinued in 2011 for operational and resource reasons and has not been restarted,” Shawn Turner, the Obama administration’s director of communications for National Intelligence, said in a statement to the Guardian.”

  141. “Believe what you want but you are wrong.”

    Come back when you’ve actually done it and tell me that.

    Come back when you have successfully hacked into a car’s bluetooth from a mile away and changed the firmware on the ecu and abs.

  142. “This does nothing to deter illegal immigration. It merely demonstrates populist racism, demonstrates contempt for some of the UK’s best-disposed friends, and demonstrates that the government thinks the right to travel is only for the rich. It is contemptible.”

    I think that’s exactly spot on all those accounts ; to single out people from only certain countries is basic racial profiling, essentially inherent discrimination, and contra to the principle of universal human rights and freedoms, which is what we as a country agreed to abide by when we voted for adoption of “The Universal Declaration” at the UN.

  143. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 6:17 pm

    Excellent news in that the judge at the Oxford Crown Court trial of the 5 men (reported as being of “Pakistani and North African heritage” has just sentenced the individuals concerned to life sentences for the grooming, beating, raping and trafficking of a number of young, vulnerable girls (some as young as 12). Subject to correction, I’m sure that all readers will also be delighted.

    It might be of interest to note that had these offences occurred in the countries of the “heritage” of the convicted persons, they would now be preparing to face their maker.

  144. “Excellent news in that the judge at the Oxford Crown Court trial of the 5 men (reported as being of “Pakistani and North African heritage” has just sentenced the individuals concerned to life sentences for the grooming, beating, raping and trafficking of a number of young, vulnerable girls (some as young as 12). Subject to correction, I’m sure that all readers will also be delighted.”

    That is good news.

    Any word on the Ian Brady tribunal yet?

  145. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 6:28 pm

    Sexual proclivities are the provenance of the security services. Greenwald has already addressed.

    They have the access and the funding to do the dirt.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/greenwald-reporter-broke-nsa-story-lawyer-sued-porn-biz-article-1.1383448

  146. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 6:34 pm

    Matt Taibbi; Another proud member of the GONZO tradition.

    “So New York Times Dealbook writer Andrew Ross Sorkin has apologized to journalist Glenn Greenwald for saying he’d “almost arrest” him, for his supposed aid and comfort of NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden. “I veered into hyperbole,” was Sorkin’s explanation.”

    Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/hey-msm-all-journalism-is-advocacy-journalism-20130627#ixzz2XRHgFNPd
    Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook

  147. “That is good news.

    Any word on the Ian Brady tribunal yet?”

    No, but I did see this piece of other good news;

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23064355

  148. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 6:50 pm

    The Guardian seems to be all in with Greenwald…huzzah !

    Warning; 51 page PDF-(those with vision issues beware)

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/jun/27/nsa-inspector-general-report-document-data-collection

  149. Bozo crowned with thorns

    27 Jun, 2013 - 6:52 pm

    and the great thing about Putin, BF, as Russia relinquished superpower status it embraced great-power status, and now Putin might be the world’s leading advocate of humanitarian law among heads of state. Russia has been reading the UN Charter to the USA since the Seventies, and now again they’re on the same page as the victims of US aggression.

    Russia’s criminal as in corrupt, sure, same as USA USA USA. But much of the repression Putin gets attacked for in the NATO bloc press is an unresolved tension about foreign support of rights defenders. On the one hand, freedom of association and information can’t stop at the border. On the other hand, distortion of rights and organized vilification are recognized forms of foreign interference (in A/RES/36/103), and the US government uses them to weaponize foreign NGOs. So the principles on rights defenders take no position on foreign support. Take Pussy Riot’s US support: is it principled affiliation of civil society and the public at large, or state dirty tricks as a pretext for great-power confrontation? It’s a longstanding question: CIA and DIA were up Scharansky’s butt.

  150. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 6:59 pm

    ” Take Pussy Riot’s US support: is it principled affiliation of civil society and the public at large, or state dirty tricks as a pretext for great-power confrontation?”

    Yes, there was a lot of high-fives in the US over Pussy Riot, and for a lot of the wrong reasons, as you imply.

    Violating the sanctity of the Orthodox church was as bold and ‘in your face’ non-violent resistance as you can get. But I think the religious fervor was a cover for Putin’s embarrassment and THAT was the reason for detention.

  151. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 7:01 pm

    @ Macky (18h47)

    “No, but I did see this piece of other good news;

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23064355
    ______________

    I’m sure you’ll be pleased to hear that I entirely agree. It is always good when undesirables are kept out of the country, be they illegal immigrants or Zionist hate-mongers.

  152. “No, but I did see this piece of other good news;”

    It’s good news week, I see the half brother of a prominent Tory MP has just been nabbed for child sex abuse.

    http://davidhencke.wordpress.com/2013/06/26/exclusive-child-sex-abuse-police-arrest-half-brother-of-prominent-tory-mp/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

  153. Yuval Eichhhhhhhhhmann

    27 Jun, 2013 - 7:06 pm

  154. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 7:17 pm

    @ Macky

    Welcome back, Macky, and thank you for posting on-topic again at 18h13.

    “..is contra the principle of universal human rights and freedoms, which is what we as a country agreed to abide by when we voted for adoption of “The Universal Declaration” at the UN.”

    If what you say is correct then this would indeed be extremely disturbing.

    So disturbing that I’m rather surprised that Craig, who’s no novice in matters of international law, didn’t pick up on this in his introductory post(or subsequently).

    Perhaps it was just an oversight on his part, or perhaps you are more of an expert than he!

    For us non-experts in international law (and indeed for Craig), would you mind just to expand a little bit on this and tell us which provisions of the Universal Declaration on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms would be violated by the government’s proposed measures against over-staying?

    Thank you again, and I look forward to your info.

  155. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 7:23 pm

    @ Jives

    “You know exactly what im talking about”
    ____________

    No, I honestly don’t. Please do set out what you are talking about. Don’t be shy!

    I just thought that everyone would be delighted that vicious paedophiles had got their just desserts. Surely I’m not mistaken? Aren’t you also delighted, personally?

  156. Flaming June

    27 Jun, 2013 - 7:46 pm

    Walsall arrest on mosque bomb. It was referred to as an explosive device previously.

    Man, 75, arrested over Walsall mosque bomb
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-23087162

  157. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 7:51 pm

  158. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 8:02 pm

    @ Jives

    I really think it would be better if you followed Jon’s good words of advice (or warning) and dropped the insults and intemperate language. They do nothing for your image and neither do they add lustre to this blog. Aren’t you worried about getting deleted?

    BTW, you still haven’t come out and said what exactly what you mean. How am I using “horrific child abuse as leverage”? Leverage for or against what? I really don’t know why you’re being so cryptic.

    [Mod: refers to posts that are now deleted]

  159. Flaming June

    27 Jun, 2013 - 8:05 pm

    Well said UKDave on Medialens.

    BBC Question time last week
    Posted by UKdave on June 27, 2013, 4:12 pm

    Here is a letter I sent to Guardian about BBC failure to ask Melanie Phillips on Question Time what she meant by ” Neutralising Iran”

    Dear Editor,

    Your reporter, Michael White, does a grave disservice to Boris Johnson in his review of last night’s Question Time [“Russell rules Question Timey-wime”]. He says that Boris made a remark about ‘neutralising Iran’ whereas, to my recollection, it was the Zionist ‘jihadist’, cuddly Melanie Phillips, who made that sinister and outrageous remark. However, none of the participants, including the chair David Dimbleby, asked her to explain exactly what she meant by this suggestion. Given her record as an ultra-uncritical supporter of Israel a reasonable bystander might infer that she meant the current Israeli policy of bombing Iran back to the Stone Age if it does not immediately cease the perfectly legal activity of enriching uranium.

    The BBC is a public broadcaster and so it has a duty to critically question remarks made on air that could be interpreted as an incitement to war-criminality on a colossal scale. Phillips may be able to get away with making such remarks in the pages of Daily Mail, a paper that supported Mosley’s fascists in 1930s, but not surely on BBC Television.

    In contrast to the hysterical paranoia of Melanie Phillips over Iran Boris Johnson was eminently sensible in questioning the validity and efficacy of the underlying motive of the West (i.e. US-Israel) for regime change in Iran. He also, if in muted tones, disagreed with Cameron’s policy on arming the so-called ‘rebels’ in Syria, the majority of whom are now Islamists of various stripes. So Michael White is also wrong to say that he was “loyal-ish to Cameron”.

    Finally, White makes no mention in his review of the most worrying exchange on Question Time. A member of the audience, who said he was a paid up Lib-Dem member, repeated asked Lib-Dem cabinet minister Ed Davey for assurances that no weapons would be supplied to the Syrian rebels without a vote in Parliament. He received no such assurance; rather he was told, each time he asked, that there would 21 June 2013 be a vote in Parliament if ‘military action’ was proposed- not the same thing at all.

    Yours sincerely

  160. “It might be of interest to note that had these offences occurred in the countries of the “heritage” of the convicted persons, they would now be preparing to face their maker. ”

    Unfortunately so would the victims, or they might just get a 100 lashes if the judge was feeling lenient.

  161. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 8:18 pm

    @ Fred (18h25)

    “Any word on the Ian Brady tribunal yet?”

    It appears that my brief and polite reply to your question has already been deleted, so I’ll just give you the gist of it, which was
    1/. I haven’t heard anything
    2/. Try asking Flaming June as she always follows the news very closely.

    NOTE TO MODERATOR

    Why do you delete my post and leave the 3 posts from Jives, which are full of personal insults? Does Flaming June get special treatment from you?

  162. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 8:21 pm

    @ Kempe

    I fear you might be right.

    I should have made myself clearer by writing what I had originally meant to but then didn’t…

  163. doug scorgie

    27 Jun, 2013 - 8:44 pm

    Nevermind
    27 Jun, 2013 – 4:43 pm

    “This man is as dangerous as Pol Pot, not to name the usual he wants to erase Gaza.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/lieberman-israel-needs-to-conquer-and-thoroughly-cleanse-gaza-strip-8671919.html

    It has been my view for many years that once Israel has overrun the West Bank and re-named it Judea and Samaria they will come back for Gaza.

    The disengagement plan was only intended to be temporary.

  164. Did anyone see this article in today’s Mail? I confess I don’t normally read it.

    Has Habbabkuk seen it?

    Digressing from the topic at hand, especially onto sensitive topics. Not necessarily overtly argumentative, this tactic frustrates its targets with its pointlessness and circularity. Digression onto sensitive topics triggers the strongest reactions.

    Hypocriticising, especially for a fault that the critic then displays him/herself. A simple tactic, often this is pedantic criticism of grammar, spelling or punctuation in a post which itself contains proof-reading errors to provoke exasperated responses from others.

    Antipathising, by taking up an alienating position by asking pseudo-naive questions, for example. This tactic is heavily reliant on deceiving the group it is aimed at and covertly manipulates egos, sensitivities, morals and feelings of guilt, usually to trigger emotional responses. It can also create moral dilemmas.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2349518/Boredom-blame-cyberbullying-incidents-claims-expert-whos-identified-key-tactics-trolls.html

  165. @Jives, re “Trying to stir the pot here by using horrific child abuse as leverage is beneath contempt”

    He has form on this score;

    “Would anyone, I wonder, share my view that the perpetrators should, after they have served their sentences, be deported to the country(countries) whence they or their forefathers came so that they could practice their bestial predilections on young girls of their own country and religion?”

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/01/uzbek-cotton-slavery-campaign/#comment-389572

    As does Villager, who gave this early warnning of an affinity to Habby Clown;

    “Macky, i think Habbab has a point about ” it was those gangs who were in fact behaving in a racist manner by targetting – exclusively – viulnerable girls whom they considered to be white khaffar trash.”

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/01/uzbek-cotton-slavery-campaign/comment-page-3/#comment-390339

  166. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version) 27 Jun, 2013 – 6:59 pm
    “Yes, there was a lot of high-fives in the US over Pussy Riot, and for a lot of the wrong reasons…”

    From hollywood to the nme, the clamour to support Pussy Riot was an ugly gaggle of publicity hungry hypocrits. Pussy Riot’s radical politics were not discussed. Just lots of preening, vain people bemoaning the loss of an artistic freedom they do not exercise themselves.

    Here, there was even a “debate” in a houses of parliament room, chaired by minor musician Jon Robb and sponsored by labour mp Kerry McCarthy. This forum, condemning the lack of free speech in Russia, was held the same day Trenton Oldfield was imprisoned for his boat race demonstration. Oldfield was not mentioned and the one attempt to broaden the discussion to include UK issues was refused. Of course you won’t hear that on punknews.

    http://www.punknews.org/article/49385/pussy-riot-event-held-at-uks-houses-of-parliament

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/oct/19/boat-race-protester-trenton-oldfield-jailed

  167. Habbabkuk, given that we probably need to reduce some of the intemperate exchanges here, an implication from you that some regulars on this board might be in favour of rape or child abuse isn’t helpful. Do discuss the topic, but without the snark please.

    I should also be grateful if you would reduce the number of times you try to engage discussion with Flaming June. She has made it perfectly clear she does not wish to interact with you, as is her right. I deleted your last contribution since you made another sideways dig at her. If you haven’t seen it, I have added some personal thoughts on moderation on the UN thread (if you wish to discuss, please do so there).

    Jives and others, please don’t rise to the bait. Not posting at all is sometimes a better response.

  168. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 9:34 pm

    Phil; Oldfield is a dissident, for sure. Putin made an appearance at the church and took communion to give credence to the ‘blasphemy’ charges.

    To be fair to the public who seem to have swallowed the flounder, they are unfamiliar with performance art, or public displays of dissidence.

  169. Flaming June

    27 Jun, 2013 - 9:42 pm

    The BBC are employing this creature

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tara_McKelvey

    to write this jeering mocking piece on Edward Snowden.

    Snowden case: 10 things to pack when you are a fugitive
    By Tara McKelvey
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23035469 – BBC News Magazine

    Her twitter announces it and also confirms that she is one and the same in the Wikipedia entry.

    [Mod: link fixed]

  170. I read on the Landdestroyer blog that Pussy Riot were financed from the USA – National Endowment for Democracy. I also read that they have never either written or recorded any songs.

  171. Mary,

    That link http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23035469 – BBC News Magazine says 404 – page not found.

    [Mod: link fixed, thanks Dreoilin]

  172. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 9:49 pm

    And their music truly sucks, Dreoilin. That’s performance art for you; impromptu and totally unrehearsed, but their effectiveness is not daunted.

  173. I read about some of their exploits, Ben. And I was pretty disgusted. I haven’t heard any of their music, so I can’t really comment. I’ll take your word for it!

  174. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 9:55 pm

    Their goal is to shake things up, Dreoilin. I think the public orgies went too far, but then i remember Hippies and public sex, which was a statement of those times. Sometimes you have to break on through to the other side.

  175. Thanks for the link, Kempe.

    Dear god is right … You wouldn’t travel to see them, would you.

    Got to go, g’night all

  176. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 10:05 pm

    @ Kempe (21h51)

    Isn’t it wonderful what scientists can get robots to do? Why, they almost look human!

  177. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 10:25 pm

    @ Jon

    1/. Thank you for deleting the abusive posts directed against me. I still think, however, that it would be good if you were to leave the name of the poster and then wrote “deleted” (and the reason) next to it. In this example, it would serve to remind readers that there were THREE such posts and that they were ABUSIVE. Readers – especially new readers – should know who is being abusive and how often, don’t you think?

    2/. You misunderstand the thrust of my post on the “Oxford 5″, which was not to hint that some other posters were in favour of child abuse/rape but to draw attention to what might seem to be a certain one-sidedness in their concern about children – loud when it’s Muslim Afghan children accidently killed by an American drone but silence when it’s British kids deliberately misused and tortured by Muslims. Perhaps I was too sibtle and should have said this directly.

    3/. Re Flaming June : since several commenters have accused me of never wanting to discuss but only to disrupt, I’m anxious that they should respond to some discussion-friendly points I’ve made. I’m naturally very keen that Flaming June, who is one of my chief accusers (dozens of accusations that I’m a troll), should show that she is actually on this blog to discuss.

    4/. Yes, I have seen your post on the other thread. I may come back to you on it (there, as you suggest).

    Best!

  178. Dreoilin 27 Jun, 2013 – 9:45 pm
    “I read on the Landdestroyer blog that Pussy Riot were financed from the USA – National Endowment for Democracy. I also read that they have never either written or recorded any songs.”

    Well I’m sure the financing accusation is made and cannot be proved either way. If true it was a sweet cheap deal for the cia. These people lived as outcasts. Personally I think the convincingly real radical background of members of the collective challenges this rumour. I have seen nothing that suggests these backgrounds are invented. But I would be interested in any links you have.

    Perhaps this was recorded in Langley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ednNI_Q3nEA

    Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version) 27 Jun, 2013 – 9:49 pm
    “And their music truly sucks.”

    Dreoilin 27 Jun, 2013 – 9:52 pm
    “I read about some of their exploits, Ben. And I was pretty disgusted.”

    Kempe 27 Jun, 2013 – 9:51 pm
    “Dear God…”

    You fuddy duddies! I think you are missing the point. They do not exist to make good records. They exist to upset and challeng our mores/religion/conventions. They are born of a radical tradition from Guy Debord to Malcolm MacClaren to Tuppy Owens.

    https://www.google.co.uk/#q=situationists+pussy+riot

  179. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 10:38 pm

    @ Macky

    Good to see you’re around and posting. Did you see my question about the Universal Declaration on Human Rights (my post to you at 19h17 – any chance of you finding a moment or two to answer, do you think? After all, it would be a serious matter if the UK were to be in breach of that Convention as you claim. Thanks!

  180. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 10:44 pm

    I am not a fuddy-duddy, Phil, just because I have numerous aches and pains and consume Ensure.

    I have transcended old age (ouch)

  181. Baitonhook

    While you got distracted, the entire contents of your can of smelly, wriggly fly-worms has escaped across the floor.

  182. @Ben
    I had to google Ensure. Now I need to buy some.

  183. The West Has Jailed Many For Similar or Lesser Offenses (Pussy Riot):

    similar cases have played out in the West – minus the feigned indignation over the perceived violation of free speech of alleged bigots, racists, and hooligans that have preceded “Pussy Riot.” In many cases, the West has actively pursued not only people harassing others and creating public disturbances, but also those distributing material to like minded people who’s beliefs are simply perceived as “socially harmful.”

    Pair jailed for web race crimes

    Simon Sheppard, 51, of Selby in North Yorkshire, received four years and 10 months, and Stephen Whittle, 42, of Preston, two years and four months.

    The men printed leaflets and controlled US websites featuring racist material.

    They fled to the US after being convicted at Leeds Crown Court last year, but failed in an asylum bid.

    Do as I fucking say! Don’t do as I fucking do!

    Hypocrisy abound Billy fourteen pints has gone Australia, turning all arse about tits, he drones on about; “We don’t spy on our people we protect them”, it is the “repressive regimes that spy on their people in secret”!!!!!! Toxic sludge is good for your health for certain!

  184. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 11:22 pm

    I was joking about the Ensure, Phil. Who knows what’s in it? It used to be primarily for those in Hospice who have difficulty eating solid food, now it’s marketed to everyone.

    As for the aches and pains; that’s real.

  185. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 11:45 pm

    This is gonna hurt. http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/06/wikileaks-mole/

    “hordarson was long time volunteer for WikiLeaks with direct access to Assange and a key position as an organizer in the group. With his cold war-style embassy walk-in, he became something else: the first known FBI informant inside WikiLeaks. For the next three months, Thordarson served two masters, working for the secret-spilling website and simultaneously spilling its secrets to the U.S. government in exchange, he says, for a total of about $5,000. The FBI flew him internationally four times for debriefings, including one trip to Washington D.C., and on the last meeting obtained from Thordarson eight hard drives packed with chat logs, video and other data from WikiLeaks.”

  186. A supermarket whistle-blower working in the cultured cream of Sainsbury has explained to me the next generation of ‘Big Brother’ supermarket innovations in ‘spying on learning your habits’ tools.

    Missing data for instance from disloyal customers that pay by cash and those accomplished enough to steer offers their way by using multiple loyalty cards will be snapshot retained and stored by digital face recognition on entry and tracked automatically round the store. Watch you are looking at? That information is of course in addition to the data the store has from your(Nectar)card already:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2013/jun/08/supermarkets-get-your-data

    Testing and trials are ongoing/completed. Proposed implementation – 2015 in selected towns and cities.

  187. “any chance of you finding a moment or two to answer”

    Everything in their right order dear Clown; remember this outstanding matter that you have rudely being avoiding ever since KOWM addressed it to you several days ago, despite my recent reminders, as even earlier on this very thread:

    “Since you are so keen for a discussion, I maybe should remind you again that it’s at least three times you said that you would respond to KOWN’s post about the accusation frequently made by yourself & one or two others, that there is a predominately ‘anti-West narrative’ here on this Board. I really think that as you often cite this as justification for the way you conduct yourself here, you should “man up” & engage, otherwise people will draw certain conclusions as to why you only want to debate with FJ/Mary.

    Here to help get you started is what KOWN posted;

    ““No, I genuinely don’t believe in the existence of the ‘anti-West narrative’ that you frequently inveigh against. I do think most posters on this thread are united by disgust and anger for much of what the West does, but that is not the same thing. As for the examples you cite – mistreatment of women in India, for example – I think the reason people don’t post on such issues is simply that these things are universally condemned and hardly worth the effort of pointing out on a forum where it can be tacitly assumed most people are on the same page. What gets people’s goat here, I submit without a trace of faux-naivety, is those instances where there is a chasm between the cruel things the west does and the way they are laundered and perfumed by such organs as the BBC.”

    By the way did you have a look at the link provided by Aidworker1 ? Here’s a couple of highlights;

    “Hypocriticising, especially for a fault that the critic then displays him/herself. A simple tactic, often this is pedantic criticism of grammar, spelling or punctuation in a post which itself contains proof-reading errors to provoke exasperated responses from others.

    Antipathising, by taking up an alienating position by asking pseudo-naive questions, for example. This tactic is heavily reliant on deceiving the group it is aimed at and covertly manipulates egos, sensitivities, morals and feelings of guilt, usually to trigger emotional responses. It can also create moral dilemmas.”

    Strangely but strongly familiar to you ?

  188. @Aidworker1. 8 47pm

    Thanks.

    “Digressing…Hypocratising…Antipathising.”

    Has anyone found any published guidance for “Grooming”?
    That is, cultivating allies by posting several sympathetic posts (usually devoid of new info) to attract allies before seeking to discredit selected individuals with ad hominem attacks. Divide and rule.

    It took me a while to notice this tactic and it still unsettles me.

    Any defectors out there to post a professional’s handbook?

  189. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 6:57 am

    @ JON (Moderator)

    In general, I’m in favour of letting posters write whatever they want, with the exception (perhaps) of simple obscenities or mindless personal attacks devoid of real (preferably on-topic) content. And I realise that the task of judgement often involves threading a very fine line.

    In this connection, I wonder what your reaction would have been to the following three posts, made in the last 12 hours or so, if they had been penned by me :

    - Guano at 22h57 on 27/06
    - Macky at 00h25 today
    (possibly) Kibo Noh at 02h19 today?

    I

  190. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 7:35 am

    Dreoilin The link to the nasty Tara McKelvey piece ref Edward Snowden just worked for me. Perhaps they were updating it or something.

    27 June 2013 Last updated at 00:06
    Snowden case: 10 things to pack when you are a fugitive
    By Tara McKelvey
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23035469

  191. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 8:01 am

    The list of Professor’s subjects for study did not include B.Liar and others war criminals of this century.

    Henry VIII Would Be A Modern Day Psychopath
    Having two of your wives beheaded could be enough evidence to prove Henry VIII was a psychopath – but it’s now official.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1108966/henry-viii-would-be-a-modern-day-psychopath

  192. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 8:11 am

    I did not watch it but it would appear that there was a loaded question about Edward Snowden on last night’s QT. Did anyone else see it.

    This is a repost from Medialens.

    Posted by Mark D. on June 28, 2013, 12:18 am

    Twitter: BBC Question Time ‏@bbcquestiontime

    From the QT office: BBC Question Time ‏@bbcquestiontime 7m

    Luckily timed, the next question – Edward Snowden: hero or villain? #bbcqt
    Retweeted by BBC News (UK)

    My reply:

    Your question is a disgraceful act of pro-US servility — equivalent to ‘Woodward+Bernstein: heroes or villains?’

    M.
    __________

    The panel in Newcastle was – David Willetts, Liz Kendall, Simon Hughes, Mark Steel and Jill Kirby.

  193. Another one of these rainy summer days ahead I can’t say how much I value the randomness on here, the staccato news delivery and sleuthing by many posters here.

    I think it would be terrible to act up on the incessant clarion calls calling for regimental change here, when the blog has achieved what it has without it and on its own inertia, exactly due to the mix of issues it carries.

    Surely I’m not the only one who detests point scoring, and to watch posters contributions being changed to ‘deleted’ or such hierarchical pedantry, making it clear that their post was not accepted, for whatever reason, just leaves a bad taste and could discourage a first time poster who went over the top with his/her first post, just to shock.

    The incessant undermining of blog posters, followed by same sole effort trying to change structure and resolve categorising posters into A, B and poor little C who got deleted, has disrupted this blog.

    It has changed the dynamic of past posters, playing them off against each other, forming cliques and contributing very little.

    If it likes it here so much, why change us, what is the impetus and how come there is no better leader of the pack here?
    Secondly, reforming what one can’t abide by is normal, but to do it when one is explicitly opposed to much what is written here must hurt at times.

    Craig will make the decision, or none, to change/reform/abolish the blog, whether it carries ads or not, its is not up to us here to change this and I can’t see somehow that it is one of Craig’s family members, so what the flying Farraday is going on in its head, I don’t know.

  194. In general, I’m in favour of letting posters write whatever they want, with the exception (perhaps) of simple obscenities or mindless personal attacks devoid of real (preferably on-topic) content. And I realise that the task of judgement often involves threading a very fine line.

    In this connection, I wonder what your reaction would have been to the following three posts, made in the last 12 hours or so, if they had been penned by me :

    - Guano at 22h57 on 27/06
    - Macky at 00h25 today
    (possibly) Kibo Noh at 02h19 today?

    At last, something you’re in favour of!

    Still, supposing Jon has smothered a yawn and actually read your request for special treatment (don’t think he’d have done anything about those posts if you’d written them except perhaps wondered what brand of coffee was responsible for your apparent leap in IQ, btw, but I wouldn’t presume to anticipate him) he’ll maybe note that you ask a lot of leading questions but answer no substantial ones, that there is strong evidence of your grooming, stalking and gratuitously flaming posters, and that you are generally as disruptive as anyone you complain about.

    If you can’t take it, don’t hand it out, sport.

  195. And another point, it, indeed all of us, have been clearly told/asked by the moderator not to invoke his name in discussions, which, off course, was like a red red to a very small bull, for it to evoke Jon’s name every time a deletion has occurred, going against the moderators wishes and further destabilising this blog.

    Nan nan nahnahnaaa, how childish is that?

  196. Whoops, sorry, missed that request! Apologies.

  197. Off topic (the topic being our pet troll) -

    http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2012/10/09/theresa-may-speech-in-full

    Can’t say we weren’t warned, anyway. (you may need to locate the sick bag before reading the speech. Contains hypocrisy, double standards, inconsistency, manufactured on premises which certainly contain nuts))

  198. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:12 am

    Life Get’s Tedious, Don’t It? Well it does here sometimes.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HlEdMg7d_o

    :)

    ~~~

  199. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version) 27 Jun, 2013 – 11:22 pm
    “I was joking about the Ensure”

    I did think you were joking mate and my response was also written with a smile. The nuance of humour is easily lost on the interweb.

  200. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:23 am

    Imagine how they feel. Shame on you Welby! Note the Yad Vashem visit. He had time in his schedule for that.

    Palestinian Christians missed out on archbishop of Canterbury’s tour
    Christian communities disappointed Justin Welby did not visit them during first trip to Holy Land since taking office

    Harriet Sherwood in Jerusalem

    The Guardian, Thursday 27 June 2013 18.09 BST
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/27/palestinian-christians-acrchbishop-canterbury

    [Mod: fixed typo]

  201. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:34 am

    UK adds another drone to its arsenal

    By Chris Cole on 21/06/2013

    The UK Ministry of Defence confirmed that it has signed a £30 million deal with Boeing subsidiary Insitu for the ScanEagle drone.

    ScanEagle is an unarmed surveillance drone that is to be used in a maritime role by the Royal Navy. This latest contract makes the sixth type of unmanned drone that UK forces have in their arsenal with all three services – army, air force and navy – now operating unmanned drones.

    MoD minister Philip Dunne said that the “continued investment in intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance systems is essential to keeping our Armed Forces up-to-date with the latest capabilities.” However the ScanEagle is not being bought, rather it is being rented in a similar way that the UK is leasing the Israeli Hermes 450 drone for use in Afghanistan.

    The contact, which lasts up until 2015, is for a “contractor-owned contractor-operated service” with civilian contractors operating the ScanEagle from onboard ship.

    The ScanEagle is launched from catapult, has a range of around 100km and can stay aloft for up to 24 hours. Below is a video of ScanEagle in operation with the Dutch Navy

    /..
    http://dronewars.net/2013/06/21/uk-adds-another-drone-to-its-arsenal/

  202. Fedup 27 Jun, 2013 – 11:09 pm

    Thanks for the landdestroyer pussy riot link. I (am allegedly working so) read it quickly and the article seems to merely imply the loosest of possible connections between the collective and other, US funded, opposition elements. Hardly damning.

    I think they rock.

    Yes I do think it is wrong to lock up racists for not hiding their racism. If indeed that was your point. Not entirely sure.

  203. From Ms. May’s speech, thanks Komodo, its O/T
    “Taxes cut for people who do the right thing, go out to work, and earn a modest wage.”

    Modest wage seems to be the catch word here, not the going out to work.
    But this is the reality, companies that make millions in profits for the UK are stifled by George Osborne’s banker mates. This is a tragic story of success.

    http://www.edp24.co.uk/business/lowestoft_support_firm_s_sale_seals_growth_1_2253950

  204. Flaming June 28 Jun, 2013 – 9:34 am
    “…with civilian contractors operating the ScanEagle from onboard ship.”

    The return of privateering!

  205. Appreciate the ScanEagle link Mary – Keep it up!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=OM4ub4H2El4#at=15

  206. As you say Craig to single out a nation as Ghana is unpleastant and to be regarded as un trustworthy is stereotypicaly retarded yet we do suffer and are reminded daily of stereotypical thoughts and actions daily and occasionly are reminded how retarted we are.

    We are systamatical evolved so to deny some all forms cognitive bias towardas others may be unwise.

    To be sure of…..?presently trust no one including ones’ self use instincts, and try friendly face-ism. But presently everyone has enough reason to be unhappy.

    So as a rule try to help others who seem less fortunate.

  207. UK economic growth is clearly down at at a real 0.7%

    Clearly the poor are going to be hit harder as a continuation of the mass experiment in human despair, which this coalition government has cheated to describe as an economic policy. It is ideologically driven and we see economics of the madhouse. And it is done with the objective of affecting the transference of wealth from the poor to the rich under the pretext of an economic crisis – not reason, it’s a pre-text. The economic crisis which hit this country in 2007 was their economic 9/11.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/tag/uk-austerity

  208. @ Nevermind -

    “The final straw came when the bank that runs our account reduced our overdraft level just after we had posted a record annual profit of more than £1m.”

    And maybe it runs the Turner Group’s account too, and just maybe that deal had a little help. Sharks. Used to be they’d only lend you an umbrella when the sun was shining…now they don’t lend umbrellas at all.

  209. “Dreoilin The link to the nasty Tara McKelvey piece ref Edward Snowden just worked for me.”

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/pandering-to-racism/#comment-415094

    “Mod: link fixed, thanks Dreoilin”

    Not sure who’s clicking on what now, Mary, but if it’s working that’s good.

  210. I think you are right Komodo, that was the preferred method of two of Germany’s largest car producers to get rid of the up and coming modern Borgward in the 1950′s, a very old trick.

    If a bank is approached by a large customer, who just happen to mention pulling out of said bank, unless soandso are not getting anymore credits, then the bank will think twice before ignoring such warning.

  211. UK economic growth is clearly down at at a real 0.7%

    The art (used advisedly) of economics is so open to interpretations, is it not?

    less than 1 percent growth used to be classed as a recession, alas at these times of economic depression (almighty and on going recession) less than one percent growth is considered an achievement that ought to be celebrated! Public services have been withdrawn, pensions are in the process of getting withdrawn, the social safety nets removed, whilst the interests to be paid on the monies borrowed to help the banksters to stay afloat regardless of the “moral hazard” complications, thereof.

    Socialism is good for the rich, and really, really, exceedingly bad for the poor, is the message getting pounded home day and night. The disconnected chancellor verily believes; the eating of a “ten pounds” hamburger is a sign of sacrificing the umpteen quids sitty down dinner, that ought to be celebrated by “we the people” for being so fortunate to have such a diligent chancellor at the helm. Alas poor dickhead, has little clue that “ten pounds” is the sum total of the money that is left for most of the poor to live on for the duration of a week.

    The current state of communication between the governed and the governors is akin to the dialogue of; deaf, dumb and blind, none can see, hear, or understand the plight of the poor, and the jobless who are not “lazy malingerers” but they have no jobs, because there are no jobs to get. 0.7 percent growth is made only possible because we the people are paying the interests on the loans that were borrowed on behalf of the we the people to give to the rich, so that they would not get to be poor, just like us poor, who have always been poor.

  212. Another O/T bit of good news; the guy who invented the business model subsequently honed to perfection by Trafigura & Xstrata croaked earlier this week-

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/10144393/Marc-Rich.html

  213. Mrs May stood with an arm on Mrs Lawrence’s shoulder. Hypocrisy.

    and look at them all in April at a Memorial Service for her son who not lies in a grave in Jamaica away from the stench of Whitehall.

    http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Teresa+May+Memorial+Anniversary+Service+Stephen+g9vqJAqzcypx.jpg

  214. Don’t know what’s the matter with me today.

    ….who NOW lies in a grave…..

  215. It gets better by the minute:

    US Army blocks personnel’s access to Guardian’s website

    Freedom, Freedom, Freedom, hey:

    In an email to the Herald, Gordon Van Vleet, an Arizona-based spokesman for the Army Network Enterprise Technology Command (NETCOM), said that the U.S. Army is filtering “some access to press coverage and online content about the NSA leaks.”

    “We make every effort to balance the need to preserve information access with operational security,” Van Vleet wrote.

    “There are strict policies and directives in place regarding protecting and handling classified information,” he added.

    Snowden asked to brief Russian parliament on US espionage

    “We invite Edward Snowden to work with us and hope that as soon as he settles his legal status, he will collaborate with our working group and provide us with proof of US intelligence agencies’ access to the servers of Internet firms,” Russia’s Ria Novosti news agency quoted Senator Ruslan Gattarov as saying on Thursday.

    Dunchu just love the smell of Freedom in the morning?

  216. Agent Cameron resembles B.Liar more and more every day. SamCam is a deserted wife these days and he must see little of his children. When he is older, he will realize that he has missed out by giving his political career priority.

    If it’s Friday, it must be Brussels.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-to-push-for-cuts-to-eu-red-tape-at-brussels-summit-as-leaders-pledge-to-tackle-youth-unemployment-8677867.html

    Then it’s Kazakhstan. Take note P Andrew.

    David Cameron urged to raise human rights concerns on Kazakhstan trip
    Human Rights Watch says it is very concerned about deteriorating situation in oil-rich republic
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jun/28/david-cameron-human-rights-kazakhstan

    When he is finally given the order of the boot, what will life be like for him? Will anyone pay to hear him speak? Probably not. He will find cushy niches in the City if he does not have them already by proxy.

    Tempus fugit Dave!

    ~~~

    The Brooks/Coulson pair have failed in their appeal to have prosecutions dropped.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/28/rebekah-brooks-andy-coulson-phone-hacking

  217. Jon 9.27pm last night.

    No problem,your points noted..

    Im totally cool with the 3 deleted posts-i understand the reasons.

    I also note your advises inre: not rising to the bait-and bait it most surely is-I generally don’t but certain subjects,and the use of those subjects as point scoring,really touch a nerve hence my flare up.

    Apologies and normal service shall be resumed.

    Cheers.

  218. My family and friends in the Ukraine have never in 22 years been able to obtain UK visas. There are two ways it can be done – demonstrate that you have a pukka high-flying career or a large fortune or both in the Ukraine (reasons to go back), or demonstrate affluence by paying for a tourist holiday package that includes visa. Charging a large bond just streamlines the process (of discrimination) and makes it more efficient. Makes the process less corruptible, too.

  219. @ Jives.
    I’m going to ask J** to delete your post. Very bad for the reputation, and it makes a nonsense of all the cash I’ve paid the branding consultancy.

    “‘Komodo dragons are actually very clean animals.

    ‘After they are done feeding, they will spend 10 to 15 minutes lip-licking and rubbing their head in the leaves to clean their mouth.

    ‘The inside of their mouth is also kept extremely clean by the tongue.”

    I’ll never live it down.

  220. Flaming Jane @ 28 Jun, 2013 – 8:01 am re your comment – “Henry VIII Would Be a Modern Day Psychopath”

    An interesting comment and article. Though I don’t know if I would agree, or even if there is enough information to reach a conclusion. A long time ago I got to know an extraordinarily wealthy Iranian in the days of the Shah. I’ll never forget a conversation we had where he made the comment that the rich, and I am talking about the super-rich, shouldn’t pay taxes because they had so many responsibilities. His view was that taxes should be borne solely by peasants since they had nothing to worry about (presumable since they had nothing) and had a much easier life that the rich who had all their wealth to worry about. I thought he was joking, but he wasn’t. Certainly when the Iranian revolution came about, I understood the why of it, though not the form it took.

    Since then I have met a number of people who could be classified as super-rich and, particularly where their money was inherited, and where they are not particularly intelligent, they all share certain characteristics – arrogance, a disbelief in equality of law, a complete lack of ethics, a belief that the rest of us owe them a living and that rules don’t apply to them (and the rules don’t, since the super-rich never pay the same rates of taxes as the rest of us do). The truth is very simple – they are different. They have been flattered by “yes-men” and courtiers all their life, they have never had to earn anything (and wouldn’t know how), they are spoilt rotten. They come to believe that they are entitled to anything they want since everybody panders to their wishes, and that those who oppose them need to be punished. Of course the super-rich have learnt not to publicise these beliefs and indeed to hire spin doctors to present them as wonderful people, giving all the time to charity.

    Henry 8th was unique in that the murder of his wife’s was judicial and open; he is not the first super-rich man to murder his ladies, and he isn’t the last either. The super-rich never had a chance to be normal. By super-rich I don’t mean a few tens of millions – I mean billions. When they throw their weight around, like Henry 8th, they do enormous damage to society and democracy. This is a serious problem, particularly today, when the rich seem to be exercising more and more political power, particularly in partnership with the secret security services. The problem is not so much that they are born psychopaths, but that the money makes them act as if they had been born psychopaths. The first Dollar Billionaire, Andrew Carnegie, said that he who dies rich, dies disgraced – and he was right. It’s time that this was remedied by law and the super-rich taxed back into being just merely rich.

  221. Charging a large bond just streamlines the process (of discrimination) and makes it more efficient. Makes the process less corruptible, too.

    Evidently there is a misunderstanding here. The bond does not equate to an automatic granting of a visa! The bond is an addition to the current controls/restrictions over issuance of the visa.

    =======

    Komodo also your species seems to have cracked the Blood Thinners chemical make up too. Currently big Pharma is busy analyzing the saliva for its properties. Soon you may find replicas of yourself in a stuffed toy departments of the big stores, at this rate.

    ========

    Anyone heard about the South African whites beating a hasty retreat out of the Alamo? (fearing that death of Mandela will unleash a huge wave of violence)

  222. Khazakstan/Cameron…

    He was there last year too. What this link -

    http://www.eurodialogue.org/Kazakhstan-UK-Sign-Accord-on-Transit-to-Afghanstan

    doesn’t make very clear is that the agreement is to transit military kit OUT of Afghanistan as we leave. Other options include burning it, blowing it up, and leaving it for the Taliban to use in restoring the natural imbalance of the place.

    Interesting piece in the Guardian yesterday suggested that Afghanistan is in fact an Indian-Pakistan proxy war (Pashtun vs Tajik, etc) and nothing to do with us at all.A defensible p.o.v.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/26/nato-taliban-india-pakistan

  223. I have spent all week and not listened to any news.

    Just caught the 3pm news on Classic fm.

    Man jailed for raping pensioner, Brady is a nutter and something else….

    Now I know why I avoided the news.

  224. Soon you may find replicas of yourself in a stuffed toy departments of the big stores, at this rate.

    It’s about time someone did something about those bloody meerkats, anyway.

  225. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 3:09 pm

    Snowdens options are even more limited.

    http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/28/19175108-no-one-wants-this-fight-ecuadoreans-divided-over-snowden-asylum?lite

    “Public opinion in Ecuador runs hot and cold on whether the country should extend political asylum to Snowden. While some admire their president for trying to stick it to the United States, others fear economic fallout if Snowden settles in Ecuador.

    One Ecuadorean newspaper this week called the leaker a “hot potato,” while another labeled him “a spy.”

  226. Glenn Greenwald wrote a piece in The Grauniad the other day warning that the smear jobs would be coming at him…and sure enuff here’s the Daily Fail’s attempt…but great to see so many commentators wise to the action and mocking the smear and pathetic excuse for journalism.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2350153/Journalist-helped-Edward-Snowden-expose-NSA-scandal-previously-sued-business-partner-running-Hairy-Jocks-porn-business.html

  227. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 3:16 pm

    ‘The inside of their mouth is also kept extremely clean by the tongue.”

    Whose? I think it’s important to know.

  228. Former 2nd highest US General James Cartwright under investigation over the Stuxnet leaks.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/28/general-cartwright-investigated-stuxnet-leak

  229. Passerby -
    Intriguing question re. SA whites, there.

    What seems to be going on is that barking neocons both in SA and the US are pumping up the hysteria, but the intention is obscure. This site may be more reliable than the NRA fundies who seem to be at the bottom of the stories, but I guarantee nothing:

    http://www.africacheck.org/reports/are-white-afrikaners-really-being-killed-like-flies/

  230. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 3:17 pm

    Jives; Just read that story. Equal treatment under the law must be the public relations message.

  231. Komodoettes very rarely insist on ‘no tongues’, Ben, and I pity you anthropoids whose lingual members are undivided.

    Smugly,
    K.

  232. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 3:25 pm

    Infiltration into Glastonbury. How many of those attending will have a clue about the Occupation, al Naqba and the ongoing oppression. Any protests likely?

    They are so on the defensive that they always have to crow.

    Israeli acts geared up for Glastonbury
    Marcus Dysch, June 27, 201
    Jewish Chronicle

    A collective, one of four Israeli acts playing at Glastonbury this weekend

    Four Israeli groups will perform at Glastonbury this weekend, becoming the first musical acts from the country to appear at the festival.

    A collective, Saz, Ester Rada and 3421 are due to play 10 separate gigs during the five-day event.

    Former JC reporter-turned-Brit-Award-nominee Jessie Ware will also be singing.

    She is due to appear on the John Peel Stage on Sunday afternoon. American-Jewish sister trio Haim are among the headline acts.

    Jeremy Hulsh, chief executive of Tel Aviv-based organisation Oleh! Records, helped arrange the deal for the Israeli acts to appear at the festival.

    He said: “Everyone is really excited. This is a huge first and it is great for the Israeli music scene to have an influence on Glastonbury.

    “The organisers have been really helpful and have given us so many stages to perform on.”

    The busiest Israeli act will be soul singer Ester Rada — she is due to perform on four different stages.

    As a warm-up for Glastonbury, all the groups played at the Tune In Tel Aviv concert in Islington, north London, this week.

    http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/109030/israeli-acts-geared-glastonbury

  233. Flaming June,

    Yes indeed,with the notable exception of Mark Steel last night’s Question Time was full of nauseatingly acquiescent droids.

    Some of the camera shots of the audience reactions were definitely pre-planeed.The “noddy” choreography.Sickening and a total sham.

    Except Mark Steel the reaction over the Snowden and surveillance question was genuinely pathetic yet terrifying.

    These cowardly people are the type who would’ve thanked the SS guards who came to disappear them.

  234. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 3:36 pm

    @ Macky re. the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights
    ______________

    Towards the beginning of this thread you asserted that the UK’s proposed £3000 bond requirement for visitors from a certain number of countries was “contra” the provisions of the UN’s 1948 Universal Declaration of Human rights.

    I was rather puzzled by this claim of yours as it didn’t seem to correspond to my recollection of the Declaration’s provisions. My puzzlement was all the greater because Craig, who knows something about international law, hadn’t mentioned this aspect of the matter in his introductory post, or subsequently.

    As you seem reluctant, in your last post on the matter (28 Jine, 00h25) to provide the article(s) of the Declaration which the UK’s proposed action would be violating, I thought I’d assist you by re-reading the Declaration myself and reporting back.

    Well, you’ll be interested to hear that there is nothing in the text of the Declaration which would lend substance to your assertion.

    The Declaration lays down a long list of rights which states should make available, on a non-discrimatory basis, to their citizens and others present in their territory. There are no trans-national rights present in the Declaration and more specifically, no trans-national rights in respect of migration whether permanent or temporary (eg, visits for personal reasons, study, etc). For most of the rights mentioned in the Declaration there is no need to specify the purely teritorial application (eg, it is obvious that state A cannot guarantee the right to education in state B), but in the one case where there might be possible ambiguity – freedom of movement – the article in question (Art 13a)says :

    “Eeveryone has the right to freedom of movement and residence WITHIN THE BORDERS OF EACH STATE” (emphasis added).

    So, dear Macky, your assertion was incorrect. The UK’s proposed measures are not in violation of the Universal Declaration.
    _________

    As a sort of conclusion to this ‘discussion’ :

    To err is only human and therefore I don’t expect you to apologise or even to admit publicly that your assertion was incorrect. But I would suggest for the future thaat you should perhaps check more carefully the accuracy of what you intend to post on the blog. There are sufficient valid reasons for contesting the UK’s proposed measures without having to manufacture spurious ones.

  235. Jives -Former 2nd highest US General James Cartwright under investigation over the Stuxnet leaks.

    Just shooting the messenger, I think.

    This may be of interest:

    http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=5968088

    Congress seems to have no concerns whatever about the legality of Stuxnet, or its obviously provocative intention. What bothers them is that the US was found out.

  236. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 4:05 pm

    More on Marc Rich, aka Marcus Reich, who has died. OldMark put up a Torygraph link earlier.

    Weekend Edition June 28-30, 2013

    Fixers Indicated That Hillary Was a Key Player in the Marc Rich Pardon Deal
    The Clintons and the Rich Women

    by JEFFREY ST. CLAIR

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/06/28/the-clintons-and-the-rich-women/

    Jeffery St Clair, the author is one of the Counterpunch co-editors.

  237. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 4:14 pm

    Planted ?????

    Whistleblower Snowden ‘May Return To The US’

    Edward Snowden’s father fears his son is being manipulated by others, including WikiLeaks, and may return under certain terms.

    2:14pm UK, Friday 28 June 2013

    Banner in support of Edward Snowden
    Edward Snowden is said to still be in the transit area of Moscow airport

    Edward Snowden’s father has said he is reasonably confident the whistleblower will return to the US if certain conditions are met.

    In an interview with NBC, Mr Snowden’s father also said he plans to make that point in a letter to US Attorney General Eric Holder later today.

    Those conditions could include not detaining Mr Snowden before trial, NBC reported.

    In the interview, Mr Snowden’s father also expressed fears his son is being manipulated by others, including WikiLeaks.

    /..
    http://news.sky.com/story/1109235/whistleblower-snowden-may-return-to-the-us

  238. Ben,

    “Equal treatment under the law must be the public relations message.”

    Indeed.Perish the thought equal treatment under the law was an actualite…

  239. There is astory in the Independent , about the stabbing of a young lad on his holidays in turkey. The comments section, is filled by the comments of an overtly racist thing, pouring its wit and hateful bile without any let or hinderance. This is the kind of incitement to racial hatred that is tolerated, in the name of “free speech”, and “freedom of expression”.

    Are you insane – have you got your eyes and ears wrapped in thick wool?

    Of course it is everything to do with MUSLIMS and their perverted backward stupid cretinous belief system – do your research and stop behaving like a Dhimmi!

    Idiots.

    #
    #
    Dhimmi cretin is what you are if you do not know that these “attacks” are ALL related to the islamo-fascist ideology of HATE!

    Go do the research – and stop being a Dhimmi
    #
    #
    Don’t listen to pelirrojo – either a Dhimmi cretin or a Islamo-fascist infiltrator sent to use deceptions to defend the evil of Islam
    #
    #
    They are all Muslims – they will not say so – but use deception and trickery to plough seeds of doubt and confusion – its all in the teachings of the Koran! …..
    #
    #
    …..English is a description of the ethnic group which inhabits England – and cannot be adopted as an identity for none white
    #
    #
    You don’t know what you are talking about – and if you do not know what our culture is and has always been, then you are not British and have no right to comment on OUR culture – do you understand?

    Note the among the labels: “dhimmi” that is getting used akin to a another racial slur “goy” and the connotations thereof. Whilst masquerading as an “Englishmen”.

    As we all know our run of the mill “bigoted thugs and morons” are hardly pressed to string three words together. To find a constant torrent of racial abuse post on the comments sections, that is even more horrific upon inspecting the profile of this bigot, it clearly points to a hasbara operative* bent on incitement to hatred and shouting down any opinion that is contrary to its perceived mission statement.

    Fact is why on Earth is the independent tolerating such an egregious hateful conduct, and would it have tolerated any such a nonsense if the words; “Muslim” were to be replaced by “Jew”, and “Islam” replaced with “Judaism”?

    * the hateful mongrel goes on record: “Islam is – it is the absolute negation of both Judaism and Christianity -” ergo the clean tracks of a hasbara warrior in full flow.

    ======

    Thanks Komodo for Africa Check link.

  240. Glastonbury before the total corporate takeover

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3gqy93jCK0

  241. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 4:27 pm

    June; He may have been in communication with his father, but I listened to the interview and he sounds mostly speculative. I think he’s negotiating with the Feds to pave a way for his son to surrender establishing terms kind of like a hostage negotiator.

  242. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 5:10 pm

  243. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 5:12 pm

    Thanks for that Ben Franklin. Could not understand the smear on Wikileaks. Just hope he doesn’t end up like Bradley Manning.

  244. Nice sly misrepresentation dear Clown, but what I actually wrote was;

    “to single out people from only certain countries is basic racial profiling, essentially inherent discrimination, and contra to the principle of universal human rights and freedoms, which is what we as a country agreed to abide by when we voted for adoption of “The Universal Declaration” at the UN”

    Note the words “contra to the principle”, which means this can be interpreted as “contra to the spirit of universal human rights and freedoms, which is what we as a country agreed to abide by”, but which cannot be interpreted as “contra to the provisions of the UN’s 1948 Universal Declaration of Human rights; two complete & different things, as you well know.

    Quite a poor attempt really, surely you can do better stitch-ups !

    Anyhow I’m glad that my comment occupied some of your time & effort, in conducting your red-herring “research”, and I wonder if you came across the “Baiai Case”, which the Home Office lost at the Court of Appeal, being told that it needed to examine each application on its own merits rather than a wholesale approach which carries the real risk of unfairness and injustice, this was iro its requirement that all foreign nationals who were subject to immigration control, be compelled to obtain Home Office permission before marrying. I think if this Bond scheme ever gets implemented, it will go exactly the same way.

    Now how about a bit of reciprocation iro that KOWN Post ?

  245. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 5:16 pm

    @ Flaming June (16h05)

    “More on Marc Rich, aka Marcus Reich, who has died.”
    _______________

    Yes, he’s ‘aka Marcus Reich’ especially to those who find it relevant to remind people that he is/was Jewish.

  246. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 5:25 pm

    Russia Today have been showing this video of further beheadings of Assad supporters by the rebels yesterday. One of the victims was a Christian bishop. The beheadings were carried out in the sight of women and children.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ead_1372329728

  247. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 5:39 pm

    The Medialens editors have published this alert today.

    http://www.medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/alerts-2013/737-snowden-surveillance-and-the-secret-state.html

    Some responses.

    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1372431642.html

    ~~~

    Separately, Garton Ash on GCHQ and NSA. He can’t seem to make up his mind whether surveillance should be carried out by the state or by commercially interested companies. We are not a totalitarian state apparently.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/27/big-brother-public-private-partnership-nsa?commentpage=1

    His pathway
    Spectator>Independent>Guardian

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Garton_Ash

  248. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 5:40 pm

    @ Macky

    Just admit you messed up and stop being so daft.

    Your attempted justification amounts to saying that you can at the same time violate the principles of something but not violate the provisions which are there precisely to give concrete expression and effect to those principles.

    One a more concrete level, it also implies that immigration law and measures designed to ensure that that law is upheld effectively (which is what we’re talking about here) are against the principle or the “spirit” of human rights. In which case, by the way, every state on earth must be in violation of that principle or ‘spirit’, since there is no state which does not have its body of immigration law and measures designed to uphold that law.


  249. Flaming June
    28 Jun, 2013 – 3:25 pm
    Infiltration into Glastonbury. How many of those attending will have a clue about the Occupation, al Naqba and the ongoing oppression?”

    What a strange way of judging other human beings going out to have fun and enjoy themselves. Next they’ll have to pass exams to get tickets, while the Self-Righteous One fights at her keyboard saving all of humanity including us!

    Amazing!

  250. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 5:46 pm

    Post at 17h15

    “Russia Today have been showing this video of further beheadings of Assad supporters by the rebels yesterday.”
    ____________

    I wonder if the poster concerned believes everything put out by Russia Today.

    If ‘yes’, then my condolences. If ‘no’, what is the reason for believing this particular bit of news but not others?

    NB – Russia Today supports President Assad the Son, I’ve been told.

  251. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 5:52 pm

    @ Villager (17h41)

    “Infiltration into Glastonbury. How many of those attending will have a clue about the Occupation, al Naqba and the ongoing oppression?”
    ________________

    Quite agree that this is a somewhat bizarre post. If I didn’t know who posted it I’d say the poster was a little obsessional.

    The solution to making sure that the attendees do leave what I hope will be a very enjoyable festival in full knowledge of the Occupation, al Naqba and the ongoing oppression would, I suggest, consist in the poster and as many good people as he or she can find going along to the venue armed with posters, megaphones and leaflets in sufficient number to meet the likely demand. No violence though, please, because the nasty police might crack open their skulls (it does happen, you know!)

  252. Flaming June,

    Garton-Ash has been bestest of buddies with the spooks for many a year.He does their bidding albeit a tad more subtly than some.

  253. Ignore it.You’d need an aqualung and for its 2nd last sentence anyway-whatever the garble means.

  254. Unionist propaganda frenzy is stepped up in Scotland as Daily Mail is given away in selected areas of the country with purchases of local-newspapers belonging to local-newspaper monopoly (and financially stricken) Johnston Press of ‘Scotsman’ infamy. Needless to say the free ‘Jockified’ edition of the Mail is packed with preposterous scaremongering concerning Independence and character assassination of Scottish National Party figures. The people aren’t buying it, literally.

    Passerby, I noted your post (4:19pm) on the Independent’s comments section which is externalised to the third-party shadowy outfit Disqus. Articles or comments bearing on Palestine, the Israheil conundrum or opportunities to demonise Muslims seemed to be hotlined to Hasbara Towers wherever Disqus is found, and rapid reaction, on-message comments abound.

  255. “Your attempted justification amounts to saying that you can at the same time violate the principles of something but not violate the provisions which are there precisely to give concrete expression and effect to those principles.”

    Of course you can ! Commonly known by the term “lip-service”, especially iro the Law, surely you’ve hear of it?! You can violate a principle you claim to believe in, oh, let’s say non-discrimination on race or religion, yet refuse to employ certain people on a variety of dishonest excuses.

    “since there is no state which does not have its body of immigration law and measures designed to uphold that law.”

    Law is based on all human beings have fundamental rights and freedoms, and EQUALITY in respect of the application of the Law; if an immigration policy uses blanket discrimination against certain groups but not others, then those certain groups are NOT be treated EQUALLY.

    All pretty basic stuff, especially for somebody of your self-acclaimed “intellectual fire-power” !!

  256. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 6:18 pm

    @ Jives

    “You’d need an aqualung and for its 2nd last sentence anyway”
    ____________

    Sound as if you need to exercise a little more, Jives. It’s very good for you and the Revolution, when it comes, will need people in top physical form.

  257. BOOM!

    Macky with a perfectly timed volley takes the point and eases home in a straight sets win.

  258. Is name-calling Clown in the spirit of what the moderator has has been propounding here?

    Be interesting to see how many people voice their observations. Note no rising to the bait by the “Troll” only robust debate.

    Wait till he comes up against Fred next time around.

    OBJECTIVITY IS GOOD, EVEN PARAMOUNT!

    NATURE IS A MARVEL DESPITE THE JUVENILES!

  259. Am back from Accra folks. Knackered, but home in Ramsgate.

  260. “Yes, he’s ‘aka Marcus Reich’ especially to those who find it relevant to remind people that he is/was Jewish.”

    … which does get very tiresome.
    Anyway, anyone who wanted to look up Wikipedia, would get chapter and verse on his background. It’s no secret.

  261. Let us know how your heel is, Craig?

  262. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 6:34 pm

    @ Macky

    “if an immigration policy uses blanket discrimination against certain groups but not others, then those certain groups are NOT be treated EQUALLY.”
    ______________

    In which case, Macky, you would presumably wish to abolish all visa requirements by all states on the grounds that some entrants are required to have a visa and others aren’t?

    You really don’t seem to be listening, do you. Never mind.

  263. Dreoilin,

    Awful! Thanks.

  264. Welcome home Craig.

    And now,for heaven’s sake,put yer feet up for a well deserved break!

  265. I’m sorry to hear that Craig. As Jives said, you probably need a good rest. I’m assuming you have a laptop (which I shouldn’t of course …) but the advantage is that it can be used with one’s feet up on the bed.

    Beannacht ort agus ar do chos!

  266. “Sound as if you need to exercise a little more, Jives. It’s very good for you and the Revolution, when it comes, will need people in top physical form.”

    LOFL! They say part of what makes jokes funny is the ring of truth! (Not a jibe at Jives, just saying)

    Btw Habby it wasn’t just the second sentence. He managed to make all his posts so convoluted as to render them completely unintelligible. I do wonder though why he’s wasting time here instead of taking it to litigation…..or at least starting a petition. One thing’s for sure, given my sharp detective skills, he’s definitely not a lawyer.

    As hard-hitting the new proposal is, it not against the law.

    IF YOU THINK ITS ONLY THE LAW THAT IS AN ASS, THINK AGAIN!

  267. “In which case, Macky, you would presumably wish to abolish all visa requirements by all states on the grounds that some entrants are required to have a visa and others aren’t?”

    How does that follow ?! I thought we were discussing a proposed discriminatory FINANCIAL obstacle to be selectively applied to some people but not others; rather different to the criteria used to decide normal visa requirements; the cash-bond is rather of a different nature & intent altogether !

    As you would say, you really don’t seem to following, do you. Never mind.

  268. technicolour

    28 Jun, 2013 - 6:59 pm

    Macky, Jives & Jon – thanks

  269. “In which case, Macky, you would presumably wish to abolish all visa requirements by all states on the grounds that some entrants are required to have a visa and others aren’t?”

    What a good idea. We could abolish visas and passports and things, abolish borders. The world could be one big happy family without all the us and them. Think of the money we would save. Just let people come and go as they wish, don’t see why not.

  270. Fred, finally a resounding sane rational insight. That in this weird world we live in would be called lateral.

  271. “Unionist propaganda frenzy is stepped up in Scotland as Daily Mail is given away in selected areas of the country with purchases of local-newspapers belonging to local-newspaper monopoly (and financially stricken) Johnston Press of ‘Scotsman’ infamy. Needless to say the free ‘Jockified’ edition of the Mail is packed with preposterous scaremongering concerning Independence and character assassination of Scottish National Party figures. The people aren’t buying it, literally.”

    I think the people have a right to be informed and the SNP is getting quite a reputation for just making it up as they go along.

    How do they stand on Europe this Week? How about NATO?

    They haven’t changed their minds about Trident have they?

  272. Well I must that little tag-team exchange has put the mockers on further debate for a time; numbed, stunned and in disbelief as we are, whilst the paradoxes, inconsistencies, sham arguments and tragically inept sarcasm rattle around and then sink without trace. Habbaduk erects a strawman attributing it to Macky, Villager collapses prostrate before it and Fred is summoned to try embellish it in his inimitable but woeful style, arriving after it has already been put to the flame and is blown to the four winds.

  273. Jon:

    “If you haven’t seen it, I have added some personal thoughts on moderation on the UN thread (if you wish to discuss, please do so there).”

    Maybe i’m misreading your suggestion, but are you actually (as in an action) there to ‘discuss’ on the other thread?

    Still not a peep on sock-puppets. In the spirit of anarchy, and of what Fred said earlier about freedom (what’s in a name?), i’d be very relaxed about people posting a chosen name on any single thread and commit no more continuity. That way there’ll be no way to allow for commenters to dig up useless history although there’ll be a lot more speculation of socks and gloves, suspect.

    Or is it that Sophie Habbercake/Kibo Noh/David are being ignored because of their support to Mary and being anti-Habbabkuk, which of course for all the racist calls here would just be another form of discrimination. My mind is dealing with some difficult questions relating to bias and objectivity, particularly at this gridlock of a crossroads the whole movement of the blog reached. I ask this fundamental question in the spirit of freedom, healthy skepticism and a need to understand how life works here. I hope you don’t mind my asking but thus far even an observation leave alone a comment from you has been rather mystifyingly conspicuous by its absence.

    I can sniff out smelly socks but i can’t read minds.

  274. “I can sniff out smelly socks but i can’t read minds.”

    Oh dear Villager, it sounds like you’ve been sniffing solvents rather than socks !!

  275. Cryptonym, self projection of your herd mentality, perhaps?

    My agreement is profoundly with Fred, someone we all know you long have a bias against. At least i can understand his English with crystal-clear-clarity (goes for Habby too) than your flowery prosaic attempts. And you’re still calling Habby names — get a move on if you respect this blog, and stop disgracing it and yourself.

  276. Not happy with corporate/government surveillance? Here’s a nice page presenting the alternatives to corporate software and services:

    http://prism-break.org/

    Personally, I completed the move to open source operating system (ubuntu) earlier this year. No more windows!

  277. “Villager collapses prostrate ”

    I collapse prostrate to Nature, my ‘God’ and this marvellous blue planet, Earth. Nature made all the races –its a colourful world. But man has made all the Nation-states and religions. They are all in the psychological structure of your head.

    Conspiracy theory?

  278. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 8:55 pm

    The BBC doing the backing up as per usual.

    ‘Several hundred people earlier took to the streets of Pretoria in protest against Mr Obama’s foreign policy.

    However, the BBC’s James Copnall in the city says Mr Obama does have wide support in South Africa.’

    Barack Obama in South Africa amid vigils for Mandela
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-23094361

    ~~

    Welcome home Craig. You will be sorry to be back unless you have already been watching from afar. Shame about your heel.

  279. technicolour

    28 Jun, 2013 - 8:56 pm

    Villager: you are overdoing it on the ‘sock puppets’. Everyone else knows that ‘Sofia’ was a joke.

  280. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:00 pm

    James Copnall has been doing sterling work holding the fort in South Sudan!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/james-copnall

    His twitter advertises his new book. https://twitter.com/JamesCopnall

    A Poisonous Thorn in Our Hearts: Sudan and South Sudan’s Bitter and Incomplete Divorce – to be released

  281. “it sounds like you’ve been sniffing solvents”

    Santa Maria Novella’s Patchouli or Tabac Tuscana…..not for Little Big Mac plebs like you. Nevertheless thank you for your concerns about my state of being.

    Note: you are trying hard to bring down the standards of this blog — your contribution of juvenile pics helped bring it to rock-bottom. You may be a great student of history–i don’t know, of the past, but you need to grow a few inches taller into the present so can keep up with the pace of real intellects here and the fast moving world.

    And stop playing KoWn’s secretary.

  282. It’s no use Tech, Villager only get habby-clown jokes !

    ““The first man to fuck little Sophie
    Has just won the Kraft-Ebing Trophy,
    Plus ten thousand quid,
    Which, for what the chap did,
    Will be widely denounced as a low fee.”

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/work-for-the-un/comment-page-3/#comment-414075

    “Ha ha ha Habbakuk

    Brilliant one! Touche! .”

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/work-for-the-un/comment-page-3/#comment-414079

  283. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:11 pm

    A welcome but rather unusual move from Erdogan in the light of his domestic problems.

    Erdogan to break Gaza’s sea, air blockade
    28/06/2013 – 09:27 AM

    GAZA, (PIC)– Turkish PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan is due to arrive to the Gaza strip on a navy ship which is to move to Gaza’s international Mediterranean waters, Turkish diplomatic source revealed.

    Alray news agency quoted a Turkish source as saying that Erdogan “would then board a helicopter to the landing pad of late president Arafat in Gaza’s Ansar security facility.”

    “Turkish PM will break Israel’s sea and air blockade on the Gaza Strip in honor of the Mavi Marmara flotilla nine passengers killed in an Israeli raid, as their hopes for a free Gaza outweighed Israeli apologies and compensation,” the source added.

    The diplomatic source stated that the 18-member Turkish delegation’s visit to Gaza came in line of the Turkish arrangements for Erdogan’s upcoming trip to the Gaza Strip.

    /..
    http://tinyurl.com/pcrfo9w

  284. “A welcome but rather unusual move from Erdogan in the light of his domestic problems.”

    Goodness ! A very bold, indeed brave move ! No wonder the actual date is not confirm, as I wouldn’t put it pass the Israelis to sabotage the trip, or even shoot his helicopter down; then we will see the ME really explode !

  285. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:23 pm

    Oh dear! I put this on the UN thread by mistake following Macky’s links. V droll.

    Reposting.

    Israel’s chief rabbis snub leader of Anglican Church
    Archbishop Justin Welby was to meet Rabbis Shlomo Amar and Yona Metzger during his visit to Israel, but between house arrest and a visit to Spain, he had to make do with Rabbinate officials.
    by Yair Ettinger

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-s-chief-rabbis-snub-leader-of-anglican-church.premium-1.532452

    Metzger anyway is under investigation.

    Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger questioned on suspicion of money laundering, bribery
    The chief rabbi is also suspected of theft and breach of trust; three others also also arrested in connection with the case.
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/top-chief-rabbinate-official-questioned-on-suspicion-of-money-laundering-bribery.premium-1.531053

    Bad timing Justin.

  286. Obama and his Satanic trolls and sock puppets should watch this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PJ6r1j2SPQ

  287. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:32 pm

    @ Macky

    I’ll try one last time to take you through it slowly and then, if you still don’t understand, I think I’ll give it a rest. Feel free, of course, to have the last word (chronologically speaking).
    _______

    With specific reference to your latest post (18h58), we were actually discussing not the proposed instrument per se, and even less its financial aspect, but your contention that it contravened the provisions of the UN’s Universal Declaration of Human Rights (or, as you then went on to say, the ‘spirit’ of that Declaration and/or the ‘principle’ of Human Rights). I attempted to show you that you were mistaken in both your basic assertion and your quasi-legal arguments thereafter.

    Can I remind you once again that

    - the Declaration mentions a great number of human rights but it does not mention the freedom to enter the territory of another state (for whatever purpose) as one of them. Where it does mention freedom of movement (Article 13), it does so in the following terms:
    “Everyone has the right of freedom of movement and residence WITHIN THE BORDERS OF EACH STATE” (emphasis added).

    - it is meaningless and misleading to then talk about a violation of the ‘principle’ (or the ‘spirit’) of human rights. The provisions of the Declaration are the ‘concretisation’, the written reflection, the translation into practice of that principle, and the fact that there are no provisions which identify the freedom to enter another state as a human right must be seen as evidence that the drafters of the Declaration did not see the freedom to enter another state as such a human right. You may of course say that they should have done, but that’s another matter.

    - specifically on your latest post, you say :

    “the cash-bond is rather of a different nature & intent altogether !” (to visa requirements).

    Yes, of course it is. A visa is an authorization which all nationals of certain states are required to obtain in order to be able to enter the UK for various purposes, usually for a temporary period. The proposed bond is intended to help ensure that the that the terms and conditions under which the visa has been granted are respected; it is therefore not an authorisation but a modality. It is ‘discriminatory’ to the extent that it will be required not of all nationals of all states whose citizens need a visa in order to enter the UK but only to all nationals of certain of those states. It is therefore no more ‘discriminatory’ than the visa regime itself, which imposes visa requirements on, say, Russian but not Swiss nationals. This is why I asked you if you also objected to the principle and practice of visas. And I would point out that no-one has so far claimed, either before the courts or on this blog, that visa requirements constitute a violation of human rights, either as laid down in the Declaration or even of the ‘principle’ or ‘spirit’ of human rights.

    I rest my case, except to repeat that while you may question whether the bond is the right instrument for achieving the propose sought (in terms of effectiveness, the hard cases to which it might give rise, etc etc) you cannot question it by claiming that it violates human rights.

  288. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:33 pm

    One last reference to Reich from the Telegraph obituary.

    “He made large donations to Israel — where he received several honorary awards, and where he will be buried.” Lovely man. He will join Ján Ludvík Hyman Binyamin Hoch – alias Robert Maxwell, on those sun drenched slopes above the Kidron Valley where Christ was buried.

    One can suppose that Reich’s loot helped to kill and maim some Palestinians, along with the expansion of ‘settlements’. It is an elemental struggle of good against terrible evil.

  289. doug scorgie

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:33 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    27 Jun, 2013 – 10:25 pm

    To Jon:

    “You misunderstand the thrust of my post on the “Oxford 5″, which was not to hint that some other posters were in favour of child abuse/rape but to draw attention to what might seem to be a certain one-sidedness in their concern about children – loud when it’s Muslim Afghan children accidently killed by an American drone but silence when it’s British kids deliberately misused and tortured by Muslims.”

    Are you obsessed with Muslims HB?

    You write above: “…Muslim Afghan children…”

    99% of Afghans are Muslim so why do you need to emphasise “Muslim” when you could have merely said Afghan children?

    “…accidently killed by an American drone…”?

    Could you describe a Jewish child (for example) being accidently killed by a Syrian drone?

    I think your mask is slipping HB.

    The majority of posters here I venture are wholeheartedly abhorred by child murder, torture and sex-abuse, whatever the religion, colour or creed of the abuser; a child is a child.

    A Muslim child abuser is as bad as a Christian or Jewish or Atheist child abuser.

    You seem incapable of seeing that this is the majority consensus among posters on this blog.

  290. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:45 pm

    @ Fred (19h16)

    “What a good idea. We could abolish visas and passports and things, abolish borders. The world could be one big happy family without all the us and them. Think of the money we would save. Just let people come and go as they wish, don’t see why not.”
    ___________

    I think that might be something of a minority viewpoint, Fred, and not only in the UK. I shall consider it to have been an essay (and a rather successful one!) at humour. :)

  291. It seems like Edward Snowden’s situation has gone down rapidly since the bail skipper in the Ecuadorian Embassy became involved. Funny that.

  292. Macky ; Goodness ! A very bold, indeed brave move ! No wonder the actual date is not confirm, as I wouldn’t put it pass the Israelis to sabotage the trip, or even shoot his helicopter down then we will see the ME really explode
    !

    :shock:

    Someone call the Medic.

  293. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:54 pm

    From Flaming June, just now :

    “One last reference to Reich from the Telegraph obituary.

    “He made large donations to Israel — where he received several honorary awards, and where he will be buried.” Lovely man. He will join Ján Ludvík Hyman Binyamin Hoch – alias Robert Maxwell, on those sun drenched slopes above the Kidron Valley where Christ was buried.

    One can suppose that Reich’s loot helped to kill and maim some Palestinians, along with the expansion of ‘settlements’. It is an elemental struggle of good against terrible evil”
    ______________________

    ? ? ?

  294. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:58 pm

    @ Doug Scorgie :

    “a child is a child.”
    __________

    Exactly the point I was trying to make, Doug.

  295. “Once the cry was, “No taxation without representation”. Today the cry must be, “No debt without consultation.””

    http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2013/06/secrets-and-lies/

  296. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 10:04 pm

    Czesc, The CE!

    May I ask you a technical question? How do you manage to get bold characters and italics into your text?
    I know there’s stuff under the Submit Comment button, but when I click on it nothing happens.

    (I ask with the aim of making the “visuality” , as Ben Franklin would probably put it, of my comments as striking and compelling as the thoughts and ideas that underpin them)

  297. “I think that might be something of a minority viewpoint, Fred, and not only in the UK. I shall consider it to have been an essay (and a rather successful one!) at humour. ”

    You may say I’m a dreamer.

    But I’m not the only one.

  298. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 10:13 pm

    @ Villager, The CE, etc…

    I think I might have come across a rabbi (he’s a Jew as well) with whom Mary might get on like a house on fire.

    He’s called Rabbi Dov Weiss and heads up a sect in New York which believes that Zionism and the creation of the state of Israel are abominations and fundamentally against everything Judaism stands for. He’s also quite tall and so if the two of them got together, neither could be accused of talking down to the other.

    You can see a lot of him on Youtube – well worth watching for a not so often heard take.

  299. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 10:15 pm

    Fred : I’m sure you’re not the only one, and it’s a noble dream.

  300. Extraordinary !!

    “It is ‘discriminatory’ to the extent that it will be required not of all nationals of all states whose citizens need a visa in order to enter the UK but only to all nationals of certain of those states.”

    &

    “you cannot question it by claiming that it violates human rights.”

    So you finally agree it’s discriminatory, but at the same time claim that discrimination does not violate human rights !!

    Not too hot on Human Rights are you !

    Would you think it inherently undignified & unjust to be branded as a “high risk” person purely because you have a British passport, and be required to have to provide a bond of 10,000 dollars if you wanted or needed to go to Canada, but not so for the people of France, Spain Eire, didn’t ?

    Re the principle behind the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the clue is in both its title, and in the preamble;

    “Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world”

  301. Czesc Habba!

    Just wrap the text with for Bold and for italics.

    and http://codex.wordpress.org/Using_Smilies

  302. Jives@ 4:25 pm

    Glastonbury how it was.

    http://internationaltimes.it/paradise-on-earth/

  303. “Someone call the Medic.”

    They did threaten to sink his ship last time he said he would go, I guess you must have missed that ! After all what’s yet another Turkish murder to the IDF ?

    Anyhow since you are here, perhaps you can help out somebody who shares the same view that I believe you yourself have articulated here before, namely that there is a predominately ‘anti-West narrative’ here on this Board.

    Somedays ago now KOWN posted the following;

    ““No, I genuinely don’t believe in the existence of the ‘anti-West narrative’ that you frequently inveigh against. I do think most posters on this thread are united by disgust and anger for much of what the West does, but that is not the same thing. As for the examples you cite – mistreatment of women in India, for example – I think the reason people don’t post on such issues is simply that these things are universally condemned and hardly worth the effort of pointing out on a forum where it can be tacitly assumed most people are on the same page. What gets people’s goat here, I submit without a trace of faux-naivety, is those instances where there is a chasm between the cruel things the west does and the way they are laundered and perfumed by such organs as the BBC.”

    However the person it was addressed to, keeps avoiding responding to it, despite often citing it as a main reason why he posts as he does here. Can you help him out ?

  304. Welcome home Craig!

    So sorry Ben but the CIA/NSA/TERRRRORISTS have an ‘FBI’ hand all the way up Lonnie Snowdon’s backside to operate the mouth.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/edward-snowdens-father-worried-sons-nsa-leak-confession/story?id=19364906#.Uc4AhctYo3g

    The love Lonnie holds for his son is about to be proven.

  305. TC, true but so was Kibo Noh? And now briefly ‘David’ who disappeared after one post? I’m only trying to establish if the earlier understanding of no sock-puppets has changed. Lets have clarity on the ground rules — so everyone can understand.

    You knew all along that Kibo was Sofia?

    When i broached the subject, why didn’t she own-up instead of continuing her deceit under both names?

    When she tripped why was she not apologetic, instead of being blasé ?

    Why did she continue to post the ‘Hasbara Troll Handbook’ libellously towards Habby? Why did she repost those extracts even after Jon had to delete them THREE times? Why wasn’t she a little contrite herself? Had she declared upfront that she was posting under two names egging Mary into the bunfight, despite your advice to Mary to stop calling Habby a troll?

    Why did you suddenly change your mind and turn anti-gabby as i perceive and continue to maintain that? In your usual objectivity have you weighed up the abuse that was showered on Habby including myself when he was seen to be picking up on Mary? And his consistently dignified response, often with a humorous edge? And over time he did change is tone at the worst calling the relentless random poster an Old Biddy.

    Are you concerned about the objectivity in the moderation of the blog and generally? Are you concerned about the tribalism that has precipitated here? Do you realise you fan that with easily fanned egos like Macky who are craving for appreciation and STILL to this moment calling the gentleman, whatever his views, Clown and Troll? (minus Habby rising to the bait.) He’s smarter than most and his shown flexibility of mind, by moving with the flow. Note he consistently ignored Sophie whose ‘jokes’ were so not funny but just childish ramblings in the end pure distraction from the issues at hand. But she still goes on with her favourite criticism of establishment narratives as if she just discovered e=mc square.

    Look forward to understanding what you’re really thinking and seeing if we can understand each other.

    With respect!

    PS And now Mary goes “Infiltration into Glastonbury. How many of those attending will have a clue about the Occupation, al Naqba and the ongoing oppression?” So Glastonbury-goers are going to have to sit the obsessive poster’s exam of politico-moral standards before enjoying their music. Quite what is going on here? Bizarre!

    Do i care what happens to this blog tomorrow? I give a damn — i’m not into attachment or sentimental and i don’t mind what happens. However i observe and live in awareness and call it as it is. I’m not overdoing anything but i do observe how others call it or are they playing their little insecure herd games. It s the same conflict all over the world.

    Finally, one thing that has been underdone is the moderation. Jon was missing for several weeks, all explained in the guise of ‘a light touch’. But even now our Resident News Junkie goes on and on and on throwing trivia in while Jon’s instruction are choose a subject and invite debate. Mary, debate? No why does she need to when she is allegedly the ‘heart and soul’ of the blog.

  306. “Fred : I’m sure you’re not the only one, and it’s a noble dream.”

    No, I’m not the only one.

    “In 1999, on National Poetry Day in the United Kingdom, the BBC announced that listeners had voted “Imagine” Britain’s favourite song lyric.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagine_%28song%29

    Now what is it you were saying about minority viewpoints?

  307. Courtenay Barnett

    28 Jun, 2013 - 10:39 pm

    Craig,

    ” Theresa May appears quite deliberately to be singling out countries whose citizens are normally black or brown…”

    A direct link between colonialism/imperialism and an embrace of the prevailing racist “order”.

  308. “The temptation of Washington’s money easily overwhelms weak characters such as Tony Blair and David Cameron.”

    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013/06/28/washington-is-driving-the-world-to-the-final-war-paul-craig-roberts/

  309. NSA cipher dependent algorithms esp. Koken derivatives of Fibonacci may well lurk furtively in Edward Snowdon’s laptop.

    http://rt.com/op-edge/russia-snowden-affair-nsa-334/

    The Chinese will love the challenge…

  310. Dave Lawton. 9 26pm

    Thanks.

    Alicia Keys: “I have come here to see what I’m buying with my tax money”

    What a brilliantly eloquent short clip.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PJ6r1j2SPQ

    Now that is what I call weapons of mass destruction, not the Boston pressure-cooker device that could’nt even break the nearest windows on the Starbucks and Forum cafes.

    I hope I live to see those who instigated Cast Lead answer before the ICC.
    ……………………………..

    @Phil 8 24pm

    “No more windows!”

    Great list.

    I’d want to add Spideroak encrypted cloud data storage (probably not there because it isn’t quite 100% open source).
    It seems to be the best on offer and is easy to use with any OS and files can be shared easily.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpiderOak

    Ubuntu certainly my favourite OS to use but i’ve found Debian Linux good on an old laptop that can’t handle the size and complexity of Ubuntu. It’s quite minimalist, but it does everything it’s asked to and it doesn’t generate so much heat so the battery lasts longer.

  311. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    28 Jun, 2013 – 5:46 pm

    “I wonder if the poster concerned believes everything put out by Russia Today.”

    Habbabkuk; Perhaps it was all staged with actors and tomato sauce.

    Or even; maybe it was Assad supporters killing freedom fighting rebels.

    Do you support arming the rebels in Syria HB?

  312. So let’s open our doors to everyone with no checks or balances and allow them to stay and use are NHS schools and other public services. Like it or not Ghana is one of the main countries for migrants not to return. Anyone who has flown to Ghana will tell you that flights from Ghana to the UK are crowded full to capacity. Flights from the UK to Ghana are empty we either have a credible immigration policy or we abandon it and let everyone in. London is full to bursting with some Boroughs having twice the population they are budgeted for. The NHS is snowed under and the police can’t cope. You can romanticize as much as you want about culture and diversity but when we are full we are full. Accra has a huge population and they would all love to come to the UK so is Delhi and other cities. The problem is they can’t all possibly fit on this small island unless we build shanty towns in the parks and pave over all the Green belt. Overstating is a crime and millions commit it every year. If people generally want to come I do feel incredibly sorry as 3000 is a lot of money but what alternates are being suggested here???

  313. Flaming June
    28 Jun, 2013 – 9:11 pm

    “A welcome but rather unusual move from Erdogan in the light of his domestic problems.”

    Yes, a rather unusual move but don’t be taken in by this report.

    Nothing will take place without the permission of the Israeli government.

    It is just a political circus event.

  314. @Villager. 10 37pm

    “Why did she repost those extracts even after Jon had to delete them THREE times?”

    Let’s be accurate. My first rambling “Hasbara Handbook” post was indeed zapped.

    I think it’s relevant to the dynamic of this blog. You can revise how it works on the “Work for the UN” thread where everything I subsequently posted remains for your delight.

    @Kibo. 26 June:

    8 30am

    8 53 am

    11 29am.

    Also more on this subject from Aidworker1. June 28th 8 47pm

    It describes the dark arts of “Digressing, Hypocratising and Antipathising.”

    And another from me on “Groooming”at 2 19am today.

    Good to see you follow my contributions so avidly, if inaccurately.
    I find mind-mapping a subject helps.

    I would still love to study a copy of advice to professionals.
    ………………..

    Re poor David, wtf are you on about?

  315. Snowden is a “rogue”, so says the NYP;

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/rogues_gallery_russia_coward_refuge_idPopKfnwWkjBMdqZX3EDK

    Not that I would encourage graffiti, but wouldn’t the name “Edward” written at the top of this be quite cool !

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/1040214_10151298954839649_1611583628_o.jpg

  316. Is somebody (the CIA? Trowbridge himself?) impersonating Trowbridge?

    [Mod: those items have now gone]

  317. Steve I am with you on “..when we are full we are full” -sadly the answer is we are never full; that is I suspect in accordance with the ‘out of view’ immigration policy or ISP (immigration strategic plan). £3000 is not too steep for middle class newcomers from Africa. It fills the ‘black’ fund.

    Our government’s masters love the gold frankincense and mur, the inter-banking and exchange revenue. Strategic loyalty is also important to Westminster. The City of London is protected by obedience, useful even valuable come the revolution.

  318. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 12:25 am

    @ Macky

    “Would you think it inherently undignified & unjust to be branded as a “high risk” person purely because you have a British passport, and be required to have to provide a bond of 10,000 dollars if you wanted or needed to go to Canada, but not so for the people of France, Spain Eire, didn’t ?”
    _____________

    I might think it was unjust and undignified but I wouldn’t claim that my humans rights were being violated.

    ***********

    You would need a visa to visit Russia. A Cuban would not. Would you feel that this was discrimination that violated your human rights?

  319. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    28 Jun, 2013 – 9:58 pm

    @ Doug Scorgie :

    “a child is a child.”

    “Exactly the point I was trying to make, Doug.”

    Not so HB the point you were trying to make was that certain posters here shout foul when a Muslim child is “accidently” killed by the US and remain silent when British kids are sexually abused by Muslims.

    You said to Jon:

    “You misunderstand the thrust of my post on the “Oxford 5″, which was not to hint that some other posters were in favour of child abuse/rape but to draw attention to what might seem to be a certain one-sidedness in their concern about children – loud when it’s Muslim Afghan children accidently killed by an American drone but silence when it’s British kids deliberately misused and tortured by Muslims.”

    Read again what I write below and answer ALL the points I raise.

    Are you obsessed with Muslims HB?

    You write above: “…Muslim Afghan children…”

    99% of Afghans are Muslim so why do you need to emphasise “Muslim” when you could have merely said Afghan children?

    “…accidently killed by an American drone…”?

    Could you describe a Jewish child (for example) being accidently killed by a Syrian drone?

    I think your mask is slipping HB.

    The majority of posters here I venture are wholeheartedly abhorred by child murder, torture and sex-abuse, whatever the religion, colour or creed of the abuser; a child is a child.

    A Muslim child abuser is as bad as a Christian or Jewish or Atheist child abuser.

    You seem incapable of seeing that this is the majority consensus among posters on this blog.

    Are you capable of answering the points above?

  320. The psychopathic war criminal lusts for more war, sounding off from Ramallah presumably. Perhaps he should see that video of more rebel butchery and beheading before feeding any more weapons into the mayhem.

    Ex-UK PM Blair threatens Syria, Iran amid calls for military action http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/06/28/311245/syria/

    Kerry is back out there stitching up his billion dollar ‘investment’ plan.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23081781 – another propaganda piece from Ms Knell.

  321. I just saw an excellent comment on this article.
    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/06/28/the-unbearable-shame-of-camerons-torah-government/

    DaveE
    June 28, 2013 – 2:29 pm

    I agree with Ian Livingston. Israel IS the most amazing state in the world. A “state” with no Constitution, no borders except as loosely defined by some psychopath racist religious freaks and an ancient fairy tale, no universal legal system, no universal rights, no justice and ZERO ethics or morality.

    A “state” created by purely religious and political powers that had NOTHING to do with the natural migration of people. A ‘state” created at the barrel of a gun by Western countries bribed, swindled, manipulated and blackmailed by Jews within those countries. A “state” founded purely on the basis of unbridled racism by “G_d’s Chosen People”.

    I mean, this is a “state” that makes the Mafia look like Mother Theresa. Ruled by “people” who revel in every organized crime racket you can think of and are proud of it. Pure criminality, pure evil and pure injustice, incarnate.

    I’d say that qualifies for the description of “amazing.”

  322. There is no mask Doug – it leaked.

  323. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 12:42 am

    “but America’s apparent inability to force its will on the issue.”

    That is most frustrating for an Imperialist, Mark. Although I harbor little sympathy for any criminal organization, it must be a marvel of narcissism to realists like the Russians.

    Dad Snowden? You can see the puppet strings? Surely he’s being emotionally manipulated, but I think I cannot judge a father who faces the spectre of never seeing his son again.

  324. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 12:44 am

    It’s most certainly not a Guy Fawkes mask.

  325. Hi Ben, yes “..a father who faces the spectre of never seeing his son again.” exactly the emotional tool the players will use to terrorize Edward/Lonnie. Hence my crudity…

  326. Thanks for sharing some racist anti-Semitic statements Flaming June.

    The mind truly boggle at what you define as excellent.

  327. “I might think it was unjust and undignified but I wouldn’t claim that my humans rights were being violated.”

    Like I said before, you’re not too hot on human rights; I guess you still don’t understand why the Sus laws were scrapped, or why we have the 2010 Labour’s Equality Act, which actually makes it illegal to do to UK nationals that what this money bond proposal will do to foreign visitors, namely enable wholesale discrimination.

    “You would need a visa to visit Russia. A Cuban would not. Would you feel that this was discrimination that violated your human rights?”

    I repeat, normal established visa controls are one thing, but this new concept of being automatically classed as a lawbreaking ““high risk” & financially impeded so as to dissuade & make it very difficult to visit Britain, not because of anything relating individually to yourself, but simply because of what nationality you are, is contrary to the notion of universal human rights & equality. Can you really not see this ? !

  328. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 1:19 am

    No hook for your bait, this time.

  329. Still, progress, or should I say enlightenment is being made; he has now admitted that the proposal is “discriminatory”, “unjust and undignified”, yet he still seeks to defend it !! How peculiar is that ?!

  330. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 1:34 am

    Jaysus Mark. It’s difficult to understand the level of that kind of evil. As cynical as I get, the lack of familiarity with naivete makes it difficult for me to recognize it. You are right. I think they are filling him with all kinds of scenarios, including charges against him. For what, you say? ‘Aiding and abetting’, unless you agree to become a confidential informant, that is.

    This is a pattern with these people.

  331. Macky,

    FFS! Go a tad easier on Habbabkuk and Villager will ya? Youre whipping those guys too easily and so much its almost pitiful to witness.

    It must be like shooting fish in a barrel for you.

    Why do they stay for the swatting you deliver them??

  332. Its hilarious really.

    Most Good Faith posters here come singularly yet it takes 5 or 6 of them to try but still fail epically in their well-funded mission.

    Cant stop laughing at their uselessness.

    :-)

  333. One can always tell when theyve taken a resounding beating.

    They pull a couple off the lesser-spotted subs off the bunch..

    Now,who was it who posted a link to Collective Narcissism the other day?

    ROFLMAO.

  334. Mark
    ‘The City of London is protected by obedience…’
    and I had always thought it was bought by cash …

  335. Flaming June

    29 Jun, 2013 - 7:00 am

    ‘Hi Ben, yes “..a father who faces the spectre of never seeing his son again.” exactly the emotional tool the players will use to terrorize Edward/Lonnie. Hence my crudity…’

    Mark Many fathers in the ME did not see their sons (or daughters) again, nor the sons and daughters their fathers. Just as mothers and daughters have been lost to each other.

    Did you hear the British general saying that we should have talked to the Taliban ten years ago? Quite so. Wonder why B.Liar and Bush kept going. Silly question I know.

  336. Flaming June

    29 Jun, 2013 - 7:11 am

    The CE ‘anti-Semitic’

    Not at all. I think you should check on what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians (semites) on a daily basis.

    Zionism in practice – Israel’s Daily Toll on Palestinian Life, Limb, Liberty and Property

    24 hours to 8am
    24 June 2013

    3 air raids – 2 attacks – 25 raids including home invasions – 1 beaten – 1 injured – 3 acts of agricultural/economic sabotage – 23 taken prisoner – 9 detained – 112 restrictions of movement

    /..
    http://www.sapienspromise.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2819

    The daily log
    http://www.sapienspromise.org/modules/news/

    There are 562 pages there going back to 2005, each page containing records of 5 days’ atrocities.

  337. Elizabeth Morley

    29 Jun, 2013 - 7:16 am

    Habakkuk said ‘citizens of Israel can travel to the UK and indeed to any other EU member state without a visa because Israel is not on the EU’s “common visa list”’. But according to Mark Harper’s reply to Andrew Smith’s second question about Entry Clearance Visas, Israelis do need ECVs and “visit visas”.

    See:
    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmhansrd/cm130624/text/130624w0002.htm#1306253000034

    I WISH SOMEONE COULD CLARIFY THIS!

  338. Flaming June

    29 Jun, 2013 - 7:19 am

    How wonderful for the Anwricans to be so universally loved that they encounter another no-go area.

    US travel warning over Egypt clashes
    President Muhammed Morsi’s opponents protest in Alexandria. Photo: 28 June 2013

    The US warns Americans not to travel to Egypt and has told non-emergency diplomatic staff to leave, as deadly clashes continued in the country.

    ~~~

    The boy Hague in the Yorkshire Post.

    William Hague: Putting Western values at heart of a networked world

    Published on the27 June
    2013
    08:45

    Email thisPrint this

    WE are immensely proud of our alliance with the United States, and what our two nations stand for and have achieved together. We remember Churchill and Roosevelt, and the triumph over Nazi tyranny. And we think of Thatcher and Reagan, when the fall of the Berlin Wall unleashed the 20th century’s single greatest advance in human freedom.

    Nevertheless we are living through an exceptionally turbulent and unpredictable period in world affairs, which may endure for decades to come.

    /..
    http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/debate/columnists/william-hague-putting-western-values-at-heart-of-a-networked-world-1-5799809

    So true William, in that second paragraph, while your lot are in charge. Sent any weapons to Syria lately?

  339. Flaming June

    29 Jun, 2013 - 7:20 am

    Blast! How wonderful for the Americans…….

  340. It was me, Jives. But I guess you missed reading another link I posted on ‘Introspection Illusion’ that was subsequently drone-zapped. I thought it was rather instructive and relevant. You might have learned something.
    . . . .

    I think Habbabkuk has convincingly extricated the issue of ‘human rights’ from the topic of this particular immigration control. The word ‘right’ is itself highly debatable. Perhaps this is the nexus of this particular disagreement. You might have a human right to potable water but that doesn’t help you when you’re stuck in the desert without anything to drink. Reminds me of a man’s ‘right’ to have babies – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c

    People here seem to be unaware that this problem (overstaying + demanding bonds) is an indirect result of global over-population. You can expect many more ‘unfair’ and discriminatory policies of your govt over the next few decades as increased demand for the good life impinges on your self-imposed moral obligation, and naturally limited capacity, to deliver it to people who want it.

    As far as principles vs laws goes, if the latter fails to meet the expectations of the former then the law needs to change. You can’t run a system on generalised principles alone given the myriad exceptions and dilemmic conflicts that abound within simplified ideals.

  341. “FFS! Go a tad easier on Habbabkuk and Villager will ya? Youre whipping those guys too easily and so much its almost pitiful to witness.”

    I know it’s a bit cruel, like mocking the afflicted, but they can have a respite for most of the weekend, as I’m off now to Paris, to see the one & only Boss !

  342. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 8:05 am

    @ Elizabeth Morley :

    That’s interesting, and I agree that it would be good to get some clarity in this. But I would point out that it’s not really directly relevant to the subject of this thread, which is about the bond scheme for visitors from 6 countries (I’m guessing that Craig just chucked it into his lead-in post mainly for polemical emphasis)

  343. @ Macky. 8 05am

    Ce que le flot dit aux rivages,
    Ce que le vent dit aux vieux monts,
    Ce que l’astre dit aux nuages,
    C’est le mot ineffable : Aimons !

    For once I won’t mess with someone else’s poem.

    Enjoy the break. You sure earned it.

  344. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 9:41 am

    @ JON (Mod)

    pls refer to the post by Trowbridge Ford at 09h38, thnx.

    [Mod: 4 items removed, thanks]

  345. Is ‘Trowbridge Ford’ at 9.38am yet another impersonation? The language is way over the top – and deplorable, in case I have to spell that out for anyone.

    [Mod: 4 items removed, thanks - yes, looks like an impersonator]

  346. “Sometimes I’m a black. Not everyone realizes blackness has to be conferred upon you again and again.”
    ― Laura Yes Yes, How to Seduce a White Boy in Ten Easy Steps

  347. “Transcripts released this week by the Irish Independent record conversations in 2008 between leading Irish bank executives, joking about how they had scammed billions of euros to bail out the now-defunct Anglo-Irish Bank.”

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/06/29/bank-j29.html

  348. @Dreoilin

    Is ‘Trowbridge Ford’ at 9.38am yet another impersonation? The language is way over the top…

    I agree. Trowbridge doesn’t talk like that. It feels like a crude parody of the mild paranoia that informs many of his posts. (Paranoia which may, of course, be entirely justified.)

  349. “Is ‘Trowbridge Ford’ at 9.38am yet another impersonation? The language is way over the top – and deplorable, in case I have to spell that out for anyone.”

    I didn’t see anything wrong with the posts last night.

    I just assumed that as they didn’t know what an ellipsis was they were probably only a child themselves.

  350. @Roderick Russell

    Just read your essay on psycopathy and the super-rich. I enjoyed it very much, thanks. It’s also true, is it not, that those born to positions of tremendous privilege and wealth are mandated by their own egos to believe that they are innately different in order to be able face themselves in the mirror each morning? To acknowledge the truth, namely that they drew one of the winning tickets in Willy Wonka’s Chocolate Factory Lottery would require them to confront some uncomfortable facts and hand out some of their loot. That’s a hell of a conjuring trick performed by the ego there. Prince Charles, for example, must know in his heart that he is a plonker, but still no doubt believes the preposterous opulence of his life is justified by his genealogy.

  351. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 11:25 am

    @ KoWN

    re last sentence : I wonder if it would be possible to be aware of the first thing while being unaware of the second. But, thank God, I’m not a shrink.

  352. Flaming June 29 Jun, 2013 – 7:00 am
    “Did you hear the British general saying that we should have talked to the Taliban ten years ago?”

    He also admitted the taliban will be back in control within months of the US withdrawal. Many of us were predicting that before the first american bomb dropped. What a murderous waste. What a discrace.

  353. Steve 28 Jun, 2013 – 11:22 pm
    “Overstating is a crime and millions commit it every year.”

    You won’t, not in a kerzillion years, find any overstating on this blog.

  354. @ Habbabkuk

    Does anyone know? Has there ever been an example in the history of the world of a king, prince, emperor, mogul, caliph or similar potentate renouncing his wealth and titles on the grounds that he was no different from anyone else and didn’t deserve the special treatment?

    OK The Buddha. Any others?

  355. “I agree. Trowbridge doesn’t talk like that.”

    KoWN, No, he doesn’t.
    Jon has got rid of those posts, thankfully.

  356. President of Uruguay:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/05/world/americas/after-years-in-solitary-an-austere-life-as-uruguays-president.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    Villager: I’m thinking about it :) I do rather care about what happens to this blog.

  357. Something for the weekend:

    Are we all full of hot air, rationalising our lack of action by looking overseas and lecturing the like minded?

    I understand Craig’s experience and interests are international but maybe that is why we are here. But perhaps the international aspect divorces us from the drive to take action.

    I believe it given that the most effective way we can help the palestinians, the syrians, the sudanese et al is to change our country. Bring down the murderous establishment here who rain death around the globe. The establishment who despises us.

    Sooner or later observing crimes becomes voyeurism nomatter how much you cry foul. We complain that the majority of people are puppets of propaganda. Not us. We see through it. But what to do? Do I hope these puppets will stumble here, read my comment and experience epihany? Cause that ain’t gonna happen. We argue with trolls and preach to the converted. It make us feel better and deflates our outrage.

    I do wonder, if the likes of us are not prepared to discuss actions and act, then who?

    So, what do you think of Left Unity? I am no particular fan of Loach but considering the labour party is lost, is this the only game in town?

    http://leftunity.org/groups/

  358. doug scorgie

    29 Jun, 2013 - 1:58 pm

    The Venezuelan right-wing only accepts democracy if they win:

    “As part of ongoing attempts to prevent President Nicolas Maduro from consolidating his leadership in the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, right-wing forces at home and abroad have reissued false claims that he was born in neighboring Colombia.”

    http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/9771

    You have to laugh really.

  359. @Phil. 1 09pm

    Good point.

    Chanllenging outworn narratives is vital too though.
    Don’t both our individual and collective actions arise out of our interpretations of reality?

    “Ideas and products and messages and behaviors spread like viruses do.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tipping_Point

    Plenty of food for thought here.

    Once the old narratives become objects of widespread scorn, no amount of orders from the top will hold the tide. Witness the implosion of the old Soviet Union. I’ve heard an old russian say he thought the cassette tape was a crucial new technology in the dismantling of the old memes. Look what we have to paly with now.

    Once a critical mass of people see the Emperors New Clothes it becomes impossible to impose the old fairy tales. Until that time the old order persists.

    We’ve all got families and friends. So do members of the uniformed protectors of the elites.

    Oliver Stone’s documentary “South of the Border” shows how, in Venezuela home grown democracy germinated and took root only after lower ranks in the army realised their allegiance to their families and nation came before allegiance to generals.

    The brilliant Irish documentary “Inside the Coup” focuses on the detail of the 2002 coup, and how spontaneous public mobilisation coupled with another army mutiny turned it around.

    It’s already happening among parts of our human family, so let’s take heart and persevere.

    Liberté, égalité, fraternité,…..time for tea!

  360. Not sure how many are aware of this site, which contains a wealth of info, interviews etc, exploring what’s going on in the world today:

    http://www.corbettreport.com/

    It’s really quite good at explaining geopolitics and economics in simple terms, and their whole archive is online.

    This interview for example explains Syria and currency wars without the “designed to confuse” complexity that we see elsewhere:

    http://www.corbettreport.com/interview-673-the-geneva-business-insider-with-david-l-smith/

  361. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 3:16 pm

    http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-snowden-20130629,0,7711506.story

    “”It is outrageous to try to delegitimize a state for receiving a petition for asylum,” Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa said in a speech in Ecuador.

    Correa contended that the news media at first welcomed Snowden’s leaks about secret U.S. programs to collect phone logs and Internet emails but later suggested the actions were treasonous.

    “What a joke!” the president said in a tweet. The media, he said, are “making everyone forget the terrible things that he denounced in front of the American people and the entire world.”

    Correa added that, for the asylum request to be processed and approved, Snowden first must find his way to the Ecuadorean Embassy in Moscow or to Ecuador. “We don’t know it’ll be resolved,” he said.”

    Ecuadoreans are split on whether to give Snowden asylum.

  362. @ KingofWelshNoir – Your quote “It’s also true, is it not, that those born to positions of tremendous privilege and wealth are mandated by their own egos to believe that they are innately different”

    Thanks for your comment. That’s true, and their egos will be fed by a stream of yes-men and courtiers. Any who contradict them will soon be out of the circle. The most extreme example of this need to feed their ego is a belief in arrant nonsense like the “divine right of kings”. Most of the inherited super-rich don’t go this far, but they still believe they are special.

    However I would disagree when you say “in order to be able face themselves in the mirror each morning?” Not for one moment do the super-rich ever feel a need to justify their wealth. They seldom associate with people who would contradict that view. They will find a way to justify almost anything they want to do. And if it’s illegal, MI5/MI6 will ensure that it remains confidential. There are few who have the honesty of Andrew Carnegie in this matter, but a lot who, as my wife puts it, are “ignorant and arrogant”.

  363. Just been watching BA’s live talk in Soweto on BBC24. All the questions from the audience were soft, until a young man asked a question on US foreign policy.
    Unfortunately, the coverage then stopped.
    Probably just a coincidence.

  364. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 4:23 pm

    Just a word of thanks to Craig. No ads. No pop-ups. It’s really annoying to visit sites who are rife with merchandise or services to hawk. A tip o’ the hat to you old boy.

  365. Kibo Noh 29 Jun, 2013 – 2:28 pm
    “Don’t both our individual and collective actions arise out of our interpretations of reality?”

    Yes but I do worry that we become a group talking to each other but never leaving the room.

  366. Thanks for Big Brother’s take in the LAT, BF, very instructive. Domestic US propaganda consistently tries to twist Snowden’s case into a bilateral foreign policy issue. The US government needs foreign devils and enemies within. But Snowden’s case has started the wheels of an international process that the US is desperate to derail.

    Russia has consistently maintained that action wrt Snowden should be under the purview of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees. This opens the door for Snowden to get laissez-passer under the 1951 refugee convention, and Snowden’s got a good case as a person in fear of persecution and torture for his opinions. Non-refoulement protects Snowden from being returned to a state known to torture rights defenders, e.g Bradley Manning. Espionage charges are classic persecution tactics used by police states fighting for impunity.

    As a rights defender (acting to promote freedom-of-information and privacy rights of the ICCPR and UDHR,) Snowden is in the remit of the special rapporteur on rights defenders, and subject to corresponding protective initiatives of the EU, the OAS, and international NGOs, incl.:

    http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/SRHRDefenders/Pages/CommentarytotheDeclarationonHumanRightsDefenders.aspx

    http://www.ohchr.org/en/Issues/SRHRDefenders/Pages/SRHRDefendersIndex.aspx

    http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Defenders/CommentarytoDeclarationondefendersJuly2011.pdf

    The established principle is, a state cannot prosecute a person for defending human rights. Viewing Snowden as a rights defender short-circuits all the HERO! TRAITOR! HERO!! TRAITOR!! nonsense. The point is not Snowden’s virtues or US interests, but the importance of defending the human rights of privacy and freedom of information.

  367. Herbie 29 Jun, 2013 – 3:12 pm

    “Not sure how many are aware of this site, which contains a wealth of info, interviews etc, exploring what’s going on in the world today: “

    http://www.corbettreport.com/

    Yes, I’m a fan of James Corbett too. For those who have FreeSat or Sky TV, you can enjoy the novelty of watching truth coming out of your telly by watching the Corbett Report on Channel 191, or +1 hour later on channel 193. Paradigmshift TV rents air time on that channel and regularly puts out good stuff. They change their schedule often so it’s best to check times on their website here …
    http://paradigmshift.tv/pstv/default/about
    … but, for example, tonight it’s on at 7.00pm followed at 8.00pm by UK Column News (not everyone’s cup of tea but they keep a beady eye on Common Purpose’s shenanigans, and the Media Trust, and other dark subjects) followed by Deek Jackson on FKN Newz.

  368. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 4:40 pm

    @ Doug Scorgie (13h58)

    “As part of ongoing attempts to prevent President Nicolas Maduro from consolidating his leadership in the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, right-wing forces at home and abroad have reissued false claims that he was born in neighboring Colombia.”
    _______________

    Absolutely terrible, dastardly and heinous! These dark, satanic forces must be stopped. What next – will they try to assassinate him with a feather duster?

    Venceremos!

  369. Herbie 29 Jun, 2013 – 3:12 pm
    “This interview for example explains [Syria and] currency wars”

    Interesting stuff. Buy the effing dip. If you’ve got the cash that is.

    Such doomsday mearchants who predict the demise of fiat currencies are very convincing but their predictions seem to not come true. There’s no propaganda like financial propaganda. Perhaps the ineviatable collapse will happen tomorrow.

  370. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 4:45 pm

    Cog; My scribbling doesn’t rise to the level of your suggestions.

    I don’t know why there isn’t more talk of UN involvement. Section 10 approaches the derogations of such policy and I wonder. Do they mean ‘emergency’ in the sense of Syria or NK?

    Using sanctions against the US for failing to meet the International standards agreed upon., (US signed on amirite) looks like just the ticket. Veto, for sure, but the international scene is right up Obama’s ass and he would take the heat with some anxiety.

    Good show.

  371. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 4:54 pm

    waving off the gnat…….http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/27/ecuador-us-trade-pact-edward-snowden

    “The waiving of preferential trade rights followed threats from members of the US congress to drop the ATPA in July, when it is due for renewal, unless Ecuador toed the line on Snowden.

    “Ecuador does not accept pressure or threats from anyone, nor does it trade with principles or submit them to mercantile interests, however important those may be,” said Fernando Alvarado, the communications secretary.

    “Ecuador gives up, unilaterally and irrevocably, the said customs benefits.”
    The announcement will enhance President Correa’s reputation as a bold leader unafraid to defy the US, just like the late Venezuelan president, Hugo Chávez.”

    I think the Guardian deserves some credit for sticking to the story.

  372. The interviewee from Herbie’s Corbett video discusses the possibility of cyprus like bail-ins throughout the world. He says the banks are going to steal your money during a coming bank holiday.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7DWr20KiB0&list=UUdWfm3zOoZUrf5X4TLd4CPA&index=8

    And it appears the laws to do this are being enacted right now. Of course in the world of financial propaganda it is presented as a good thing for tax payers (no more bail outs).

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/jun/27/eu-agrees-banks-bail-in-deal

  373. “Such doomsday merchants who predict the demise of fiat currencies are very convincing but their predictions seem to not come true.”

    Fiat currencies are always demising. The point is that they’re a very poor store of value because bankers insist on continually devaluing them, to their own profit.

    The current currency wars, after the bubbles and pops, will be a speeded up version of this process laying waste the wealth of anyone who has it stored in fiat currency.

    Despite the small passing presence of Icke and Alex Jones, this is quite good too:

    http://financearmageddon.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-fall-of-dollar-death-of-fiat.html

  374. This site contains some excellent free documentaries, exploring why things happen the way they do:

    http://metanoia-films.org/films/

  375. “This report outlines 35 cases where Ministerial claims using statistics on the subject of Work and Benefits have fallen short of the standards expected of Government Ministers.

    We believe that this demonstrates a consistent pattern of abuse of official statistics by Ministers of the present Government to paint a false picture of benefit claimants in the UK in support of policies which are aimed at cost cutting to the detriment of jobless, sick and disabled people.

    Within this document, each case is presented, and fully referenced to source material throughout.”

    http://de.scribd.com/doc/149776210/DPAC-Report-on-DWP-Abuse-of-Statistics-Final-22-June-2013

  376. Flaming June

    29 Jun, 2013 - 5:59 pm

    This is the video of beheadings that I posted yesterday with some commentary. Nothing about it in the corporate media. It is obviously not worthy of mention and is a completely normal happening in their minds. I could not watch it through but I am told that the headless bodies are shown still moving and then the heads are finally displayed on poles. Women and children were witness to it.
    http://rt.com/news/syria-beheadings-video-assad-401/

    I am sending it to my MP, who is a Conservative, with a plea to Cameron not to supply further arms or weaponry to the rebels.

    There is just one show of sanity in the HoC from John Baron who, with a group of fellow MPs, is requesting a debate and will attempt to remove Cameron’s power to take any further action in the long recess which Cameron has reserved.

    John Baron’s recent activity in the HoC. http://www.theyworkforyou.com/search/?pid=10715&pop=1

    Written Answers — Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs: Syria (24 June 2013)
    John Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what definition his Department uses for an extremist when allocating military and non-military aid in Syria.

    Written Answers — Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs: Syria (24 June 2013)
    John Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he has made of the total number of (a) people and (b) people described by his Department as extremists fighting in Syria against government forces.

    Oral Answers to Questions — Foreign and Commonwealth Office: Geneva Conference on Syria (18 June 2013)
    John Baron: What his policy is on the possible inclusion of Iran as a participant in the forthcoming Geneva conference on Syria.

    Oral Answers to Questions — Foreign and Commonwealth Office: Geneva Conference on Syria (18 June 2013)
    John Baron: Politicians should leave no stone unturned in the pursuit of a diplomatic solution. Does the Foreign Secretary therefore understand widespread concern that we are not giving diplomacy the best chance if Iran, a key player in the region, is excluded? Will he do what he can to encourage its inclusion?

  377. Flaming June

    29 Jun, 2013 - 6:13 pm

    Doug Scorgie. 1.58pm Radonski Caprile is a bad loser.

    Venceremos. Long live Maduro, Correa and any other South American democratically elected leader who stands up to the evil Empire.

    Obama was speaking in Soweto and regaling the rather unresponsive youngsters with a reminder of Mandela’s 27 year long imprisonment. He told them to face the sun and to keep their feet going forward. What tripe. More of his empty rhetoric.

    He did not mention his prisoners in Guantanamo or Bradley Manning or the current pursuit or Edward Snowden or the over 300 extra judicial killings by Hellfire missiles from drones that have occurred under his watch.

    Weekend Edition June 28-30, 2013
    Power Over People
    Treason

    by ROB URIE

    U.S. military adventures have historically combined imperial ambition—the acquisition of territory and colonies, limiting the reach of competing empires and ‘acquiring’ economic resources—‘natural’ resources, existing economic infrastructure and labor, under advantageous terms. The U.S. orchestrated coup in Honduras was for United Fruit, in Chile for ITT, Kennecott and Anaconda Copper and the CIA’s ‘war of attrition’ against Nicaragua in the 1980s to undo the nationalization of Coca Cola facilities. The botched war on and occupation of Iraq was a continuation of imperial designs on Middle Eastern oil by the U.S. and Britain dating from the early twentieth century. All of these and many, many more conflated the economic interests of particular U.S. ‘based’ corporations with the ‘national interest.’

    /..
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/06/28/treason/

  378. Flaming June

    29 Jun, 2013 - 6:50 pm

    Corroboration from the Vatican.

    VATICAN CITY (Catholic Online) – The Vatican is confirming the death by beheading of Franciscan Father, Francois Murad, who was martyred by Syrian jihadists on June 23.

    Below is the news release from the Vatican, via news.va.

    On Sunday, June 23 the Syrian priest François Murad was killed in Gassanieh, in northern Syria, in the convent of the Custody of the Holy Land where he had taken refuge. This is confirmed by a statement of the Custos of the Holy Land sent to Fides Agency. The circumstances of the death are not fully understood. According to local sources, the monastery where Fr. Murad was staying was attacked by militants linked to the jihadi group Jabhat al-Nusra.

    /..

    http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=51537

  379. ‘But thank God, I’m not a shrink.’

    I am a paid troll, but thank God, I’m not a shrink.

  380. Phil 4 28pm

    “I do worry that we become a group talking to each other but never leaving the room.”

    Point taken.

    I still think the conversation is worth having even if we were all stuck in a room.

    Craig’s blog is like an effectively open source, attention grabbing info bazaar.

    Here any info or narrative can be examined , tested to destruction, (witness the Macky/Habba exchange earlier) and taken aboard or left on the shelf.

    Craig’s postings deserve to, and do, attract a good number of thinking, sentient people because what he’s writing fits with the state of the world as they experience it.

    Crowds are drifting away from the corporate media to read stuff life that. Mandated narratives creak with the strain.

    That can only be good. The more people are informed about what is so, the greater society’s chance to course correct with myriad individual and group actions on all the different stages life has rolled out for us.

    Then there’s the blog’s Comments Section, populated with a shiftng and wondrous ecology of entities, some with interesting info or observations to add to the pot, others with weird and wonderful patterns of behaviour to guide us towards or away from issues whose narratives they judge worthy of discussion or not. You couldn’t make some of what goes on in here up, could you?

    I’m sure there’s plenty of leakage into conversations out in society.

    ……..

    Finally some graffiti I saw in a European capital not so long ago:

    “THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SOCIETY. Margaret Thatcher 1979
    THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THATCHER. 2013”

    Another paradigm in bits.

    Yes, the times they sure are a changing!

  381. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 7:40 pm

    @ Jon (Moderator)

    I’m astounded, Jon, that you should have deleted my post of earlier on because in it I was attempting, in the stye of a frequent and most respected fellow-commenter on this blog, to give out some very valuable, relevant and not very-well- known information about a couple of public personalities.

  382. “I am a paid troll, but thank God, I’m not a shrink.”

    Guano, you can be very irritating. In the first place, you don’t actually know for sure who is a troll and who isn’t. You can only assume. And to announce that they are also “paid”, is just another unfounded assumption.

  383. BrianFujisan

    29 Jun, 2013 - 8:32 pm

    @ Ben 4 ; 54 pm

    Here’s another Beautiful Slap down of the Hypocrites on Eucador’s Stance Re Snowden
    Sublime indeed

    “DON’T COME LECTURING US ABOUT LIBERTY. YOU NEED A REALITY CHECK. Don’t act like a spoiled rude child. Here you will only find dignity and sovereignty. Here we haven’t invaded anyone. Here we don’t torture like in Guantanamo. Here we don’t have drones killing alleged terrorist without any due trial, killing also the women and children of those supposed terrorists. So don’t come lecturing us about life, law, dignity, or liberty. You don’t have the moral right to do so.”

    Rafael Correa, President of Ecuador, on the US Government.

  384. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 8:50 pm

    “Doug Scorgie. 1.58pm Radonski Caprile is a bad loser.”
    _____________

    Thank you for reminding us that the full name of the losing candidate in the recent Presidential election in Venezuela is “Radonski Caprile”.

    Well, except that it’s actually CaprileS (father’s surname) Radonski (mother’s surname).

    Given the attachment some commenters have to giving Mr Capriles his full name,I am somewhat surprised that they have never referred to the winner, commonly known as Mr Nicolas Maduro, as Mr Nicolas Maduro Moros. Could it be that the part-surname “Radonski” is of particular significance for them?

  385. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 8:54 pm

    @ Dreoilin

    Oh, you should really show a little more tolerance towards the object of your irritation. After all, it’s not every commenter on this blog who can be said to post himself :)

  386. @Habba.8 54pm

    Two targets with one shot!

    However do you manage it?

    Maybe I should accept all that you peddle after all.

  387. “Oh, you should really show a little more tolerance towards the object of your irritation.”

    Hmmmmmm … I should probably show more tolerance all round. But the fact is, I’m tired.

    (I do wonder sometimes how many folk come online when they’re tired and then take out their tetchiness on others. I really do.)

  388. @Dreoilin. 9 29pm

    No one’s perfect………………………except, of course, me!

  389. For anyone new to the comments section, there’s a great dialog going on on the “Work for the UN” thread…………on how to contribute to and moderate said comments thread.

    All the fun of the circus, plus plenty to consider.

    Here’s a sample.

    @Passerby. 11 03PM

    Eloquent and relevant common sense. A good read too.

    I won’t repeat all but here’s a flavour:

    “A time comes when silence is betrayal…….”

    “Those wishing to change the current arrangements of this blog, perhaps ought to learn to scroll passed the comments these find offensive, and challenging to their sensibilities, instead of attempting to change the blog as per their liking. Simply put this blog is not their sitting room to be arranged and rearranged as per their preferences, reflecting their individuality.”

    “Hats off to Craig for providing this little speakers corner in the cyberspace.”

    And from the horse’s mouth, so to speak.

    @Jon. 12 51pm

    I’ve had enough of copying and posting. Read full post yourself.
    Then you can give out to me if I was wasting your time.

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/work-for-the-un/comment-page-6/#comments

  390. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 9:56 pm

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/29/19206445-vp-biden-discussed-snowden-with-ecuadors-president-white-house-says?lite

    “The call between Biden and Correa – the highest-level exchange reported between the U.S. and Ecuador since Snowden’s June 24 plea for asylum – came just two days after President Barack Obama said he was “not going to be scrambling jets to get a 29-year-old hacker” and should not have to speak personally with the leaders of Russia and China to return Snowden to the U.S.
    Obama pledged not to engage in “wheeling and dealing and trading and a whole host of other issues, simply to get a guy extradited so he can face the justice system here in the United States.””

    Obama says he’s not gonna send Jets to get Snowden; he didn’t say anything about mercenaries.

  391. Kibo Noh 29 Jun, 2013 – 7:21 pm
    “I still think the conversation is worth having.”

    Which of course it is. In fact, sorry for my somewhat sanctimonious comment. Upon reflection I was only hectoring myself.

  392. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 10:16 pm

    Kibo @ 9:54

    Thanks for that. I have been remiss in inserting red-hot pokers into mine eyes.

  393. Sorry for the O/T: “Rebels” make gains in southern Syrian town of Deraa. This is right on the border with Jordan, where 4000 US marines are conducting “exercises” with their hosts. Now, I’m no conspiracy theorist, but…
    Don’t expect the Blind Broadcasting Corporation to ask if there might be a connection. If this keeps up, I would guess that the next move would be Syrian use of the Iskander missiles Russia delivered to them earlier this year. It will be Russia’s decision whether to fire them, of course, maybe near Aleppo in the north (but the Turks ain’t so keen now to help the “rebels” cos they got troubles of their own) or near Deraa itself; maybe a little piece of Jordan…
    You can see where this is going. Dis shit gettin’ REAL, as my analyst once said to me…

  394. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 11:05 pm

    ” Dis shit gettin’ REAL”

    Indeed. I sense a fuse is being lit.

  395. well spotted Mike, and when you listen top the BBc you would think they have nothing else to do but to report on Glastonbury,
    what a perfect distraction, massacres in |Syria to the tune of I can get no satisfaction, apocalypse now in reality.
    Dis shit is getting very real indeed, the Saudi’s put their hands in their pockets and made arms dealers smile, Deraa would be the first town to get the arms, for all the reasons you mentioned. Syria is also being supplied, whatever Putin may say, he’s not going to set Syria adrift.

    Add to this powder keg the lightning speed changes in Egypt, by tomorrow this could be civil war with a sectarian flavour.

    I’m appalled at the impotence of the UN and the ease by which its various hands are being corrupted and bend over to suit crooks.

    Time to dig that hole…

  396. Anyway. Great speech by Glenn Greenwald on the Ed Snowden leak, speaking freely amongst friends.

    Very funny too.

    Starts 10.00 mins in, unless you really need to hear the introductions. Scahill’s @ 3.00 mins in is worth a listen though.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Uulv4ve6RJ8#at=1376

  397. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 11:48 pm

    If I were a gambler, I would put up several dollahs @ 10-1 that if trollery or other asshattery is not benefitting from this imbroglio, I will eat my three corner hat. Oh, I don’t think I understand that gambling thing….

    Just say I’ll eat my asshat.

  398. @Phil. 10 09pm

    “…I was only hectoring myself.”

    Isn’t it the natural, hard-wired, courageous and admirable male approach to a problem, to want to do something physical about it.

    I’m sure we wouldn’t be having this conversation if our young men of countless generations had not, without thinking, jumped out of their sleep and headed out to meet the big cats while women, entrusted with the future, gathered the young and moved them to safety. Samburu men do just that to this day.

    Bruce Chatwin, in “The Songlines”, had some interesting thoughts in this and much more back in 1986.

    Back to the jobs at hand.

    A “what is really so” narrative has to be one of the crucial issues if we are to course-correct. I’ve a couple of highly effective buddhist friends who have three simple practices.

    Pay attention.

    Tell it as it is.

    Practice compassion.

    Their questions enrage keepers of the Official narrative. But they refuse to treat them as enemies and seem the happier for it.

    No matter how they go about it, defenders of the old paradigm are finding it difficult to maintain once people start to check it out.

    I mean, we are being expected to swallow the notion that it’s somehow OK for national leaders to constantly use lethal, destructive force (in the name of protecting people and bringing democracy) or economic ECT (See Naomi Klein: “The Shock Doctrine”) to maintain the economic status quo.

    Out in the world, despite increasingly colossal fortunes being spent to manufacture the corporate media narratives, these are increasingly perceived as bizzare and not in the individual or society’s interests.

    It can no longer be convincingly argued that so many should be excluded from the earth’s wealth and nurturing capacity while the microscopic few have between 28 and 32 trillion dollars stashed away in tax havens. The rising tide left most of the boats underwater. Now it’s receded it only took the elites craft with it and left the rest of us high and dry.

    Milton Friedman economics is a busted flush, discredited outside the walls of the dominant banking cult but still in vogue with the Lords of the Universe, for obvious reasons.

    More and more people don’t see why their unborn kids should be saddled with the debts of corporate fraudsters. Witness the global spread of Ireland’s Anglo Irish Bank tapes.

    We are expected to accept these kind of swindles?

    Who says?

    Oh. It’s those same banksters, arms producers, generals and their political servants who profited by it all in the first place. Who can be reassured once they really get minds around that?

    Enormous mental and emotional energy is now required by comfortable conformists to stay shut in their cognitive cuckoons, eyes and minds shielded from reality out there when, increasingly , it crashes into lives all around them?

    Citizens are given bank debt, the surveillance state, pre-emptive arrests, etc and kept poor post WOT / Corporate Coup. Just how can that be defended rationally?

    Hence the sense of panic from the those who see it as their noble entitlement to enforce conformity,increasingly scraping their intellectual barrels in a vain and rather desperate attempt attempt to distract, insult and confuse.

    And of course we, who so desperately yearn for change, can forgive ourselves for loosing our cool now and then. Surely a valid response to, for example, blowing up chidren with missiles from a safe office thousands of miles away, or from an F11 thousands of feet up, is visceral disgust.

    Sometimes the language that escapes me offends and alienates. I don’t think it gets me very far, but it sure lets off steam. And Jon’s a dab hand with his zapping stick. Ouch!

    These conversations are important because they are likely to leak out of the blogosphere.

    My wish would be for change to come peacefully through increasing implementation of International Law. I’m not holding my breath on that one.

    I don’t believe the situation can be kept fossilised like this for much longer and ultimately one straw or another will turn up to break this camel’s back.

    So post on brother!
    ……………………………..

    @Ben.

    It’s the time of night to put those pokers away, put yer feet up, and get an ear-full of this.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej4tKE43oOw

    Peace.

  399. Good God, Ben!!

    It’s, “Were I a gambler”

    Have you learned nothing from Habby’s lessons?

  400. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 12:08 am

    OK, Kibo. This is War….

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9muzyOd4Lh8

  401. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 12:10 am

    “It’s, “Were I a gambler””

    We dun tawlk lak dat down heuah, son. Git yer culture igorance someswheres else. Gotta run now.

  402. A round up of the foreign news, the news that you are not likely to find in any of the fucking medjia you have come to rely on to keep you misinformed and ignorant.

    South Africans burn Obama’s poster

    Demonstrators expressed their opposition to Washington’s support for the Israeli regime, the killing of innocent civilians in U.S. drone strikes, and the continuing operation of the U.S.-run Guantanamo Bay prison.

    Some protesters compared the Obama administration’s support for the Israeli regime to the apartheid in South Africa.

    Moreover, activists from the Free Palestine Organization of South Africa waved Palestinian flags and carried signs that urged Obama to “Stop Funding Israeli Apartheid.”

    For their troubles informing the wider world of what is really happening; US seeks to take Press TV off air in western Afghanistan

    Press TV has learned that the US Consulate in Herat, situated more than 800 kilometers (miles) west of Kabul, has asked the cable television provider in the city to immediately remove Press TV from its platform.

    A senior official from the diplomatic mission has even met the managing director of the cable TV provider in Herat, and offered him three times more than the amount of the money paid by Press TV.

    ~~
    On June 19, Intelsat announced that it will no longer provide services to Iranian channels including Press TV. The decision has been made under the pretext of the company’s abiding by illegal sanctions against the head of the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB).

    ~~
    Press TV has learned that the Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) – an agency of the US Treasury Department headed by an Ashkenazi Jew called Adam Szubin – is behind the pressure on Intelsat.

    Meanwhile back in London, there has been a demonstration around Saudi embassy in which the demonstrators have been condemning the detention and torture of women who have been kidnapped and detained whilst demonstrating in protest against the ruling regime of Saudi in the town of Buraydah in central Saudi. This is in addition to the unrest in the western provinces and along some eastern board towns of Saudi.

    Moreover Bahrainy protests are still ongoing, with demonstrations in the township of Sitra south east of the capital Manama . Those attending the protests were openly challenging the ruling regime and maintained; they no longer feared the measures taken against these demonstrators, which includes detention, torture, and disappearances. Further, the demonstrators made clear that they will carry on with their protests until such a time that the ruling regime have not stepped down and remain in Bahrain.

    Egyptian demonstrators have been burning the zionistan flags and have also unfurled a giant banner in front of the defence ministry. The banner read; the pigs and dogs of Mossad, Egyptians are united, and will not fall victim to the US tricks.

    With respect to Syrian front, two polish cargo aircraft, each carrying ninety tonnes of heavy weapons and munitions thereof have landed in Jordan, and their deadly cargo has been injected through the Jordanian border into Syria.

    The weapons transported are being transported from the Kandahar airport in Afghanistan. the bridge head set up in Kandahar through means of air as well as ground deliveries to the Jordanian and Turkish borders, is delivering weapons and ordnance into the hands of the Syrian “rebels” (the heart eating, good terrorists). The cargo is composed of Humvees equipped with rocket launchers and semi heavy weapons, as well as anti armour rockets and munitions.

    This revelation further clarifies the push for arming the “rebels” which in fact is an attempt to farm out the redundant and surplus equipment in Afghanistan theatre, into the Syrian front, in the way of aiding the “rebels” to gain an advantage in the Syrian theatre.

  403. The power of intention wins again Ben. My all time fav ‘Knights in White Satin’ by the Moody Blues. I sang this song in Singapore Brit Club and in Yokahama Japan with the band, ‘London Lights’ aboard HMS London – Cheers for the memory – Syria-the terrorists must move out; they are no longer required. The world has spoken, viva voci people are hand in hand – the terror of Iraq is a constant vision in the minds of Syrian households.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9muzyOd4Lh8

  404. @Ben.12 08pm

    Oh, for that old summer of love! You win.

    ………………..

    @Fedup. 12 23pm

    Thanks for the update.

    Goodnight all.

  405. the Stuxnet computer virus unleashed on Iran’s nuclear facilities is such a huge story, with developments this week. what could be more dangerous than meddling in this way with nuclear reactors? an interesting take here:

    Mondoweiss: Leak inquiry launched over ‘NYT’ story on American-Israeli cyberwar targeting Iran
    by Alex Kane
    http://mondoweiss.net/2013/06/launched-cyberwar-targeting.html

    the criminal behaviour of US/Israel must be stopped. international bodies are so compromised, we need another way to hold them accountable.

  406. Flaming June

    30 Jun, 2013 - 6:54 am

    Good posts from the night owls.

    The ex Goldman Sachs operative returns to London to start work at HQ. He will pick up £874,000 pa.
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/a27e08f4-dec4-11e2-b990-00144feab7de.html#axzz2XfyPfpkl

    Merv goes off into the sunset for some me-time instead of doing QE-time.
    http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/6/25/1372194446411/26.06.13-Steve-Bell-on-Me-002.jpg

  407. Flaming June

    30 Jun, 2013 - 7:00 am

    That old D notice thing rearing its ugly head again?

    http://www.newssniffer.co.uk/articles/658994/diff/1/2

  408. Flaming June

    30 Jun, 2013 - 7:09 am

  409. Flaming June, at 7:09am: This is another plank in this fundamentalist government’s plan to privatise the NHS. It’s extremely dangerous. As far as I’m concerned, they can fuck off (and that’s my official public statement on that matter).

    But sadly, most people will do as they’re told.

  410. Here’s RT’s Crosstalk on the Snowden case.

    Some fine moments of verbal slapstick in the second half as the MSM panelist insists that if Snowden had integrity he’s get himself back to the US and “go through the proper channels”.

    http://rt.com/shows/crosstalk/whistleblowing-nsa-lies-law-372/

  411. Disturbing:
    “Royal Family granted new right of secrecy
    Special exemptions to be written into Freedom of Information Act”
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/royal-family-granted-new-right-of-secrecy-2179148.html

  412. I can’t see any problem with asking foreigners to meet their own medical expenses with an insurance policy. Oz, for as long as I can remember, has required visitors to have insurance. I don’t really want to ask the obvious .. but .. who is supposed to pay for the very expensive healthcare needs of people? If people are entitled to ‘free’ healthcare, surely they should be entitled to ‘free’ basic food and ‘free’ accomodation. How are these any different?

  413. Agree Suhayl. Yet another stick to beat already demoralized staff. That is the Con Dem agenda

    Mechanisms for collecting the cost of treatment from patients not entitled to NHS care already exist. Hospitals have finance departments for that purpose.

    Some of the ‘foreign patients’ aka ‘migrants’ or even ‘immigrants’, come from countries we have destroyed or pillaged incidentally so we shouldn’t be too hard on them.

    The BiBiCee said this morning that unpaid bills for treatment amount to £24m. They did not say what period was covered. I think they were quoting the Mail!

    A message here this morning from a medic I know.

    ‘Estimated cost of NHS services for foreign patients – 0.05 to 0.2% of total.

    Estimated cost of Health and Social Care Act ‘reforms’, not announced in any election manifesto – £3 billion which is roughly 3% of the total NHS budget.

    Bill for treating road trauma – £several billion. Hospitals can claim up to £1,300 from insurance companies (when I was working), when claims were settled – ie after several years. Few hospitals had the oomph or back up to follow these up. I encouraged the ‘managers’ to go for it.’

    ~~~

    And a ps. Don’t have an accident or get ill in Cornwall. Their services are in chaos. There has already been a scandal about the privatisation of their out of hours GP services with the provider altering statistics and providing poor or non existent care. Now the NHS 111 service there is in limbo –

    NHS Direct pulls out of Cornwall NHS 111 helpline
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-23113571

    and the board members of the trusts are resigning. Imagine working in the system at the moment with this scenario likely to spread round the country,

    Cornwall hospital trust chairman resigns after less than a week
    Royal Cornwall Hospital Mike Higgins said he resigned because he could not unite the hospital trust’s board

    Related Stories
    New interim health chair announced
    Chairman of hospital trust resigns
    Hospitals chief ‘distressed’ at row

    An interim chairman appointed less than a week ago at a hospital trust, after the resignation of the previous chairman, has himself resigned.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-23086746

    ~~

    Jeremy Hunt better head for the hills.

  414. If people are entitled to ‘free’ healthcare, surely they should be entitled to ‘free’ basic food and ‘free’ accomodation. How are these any different?

    Good to be in fucking Australia and waxing lyrical about bollocks as ever. what if the ill “immigrant” were to be struck with Lassa fever, Yellow fever, or any of the other contagions of highly dangerous pathogens? Yeah, hate can have awful consequences and come back to bite the hater on the arse really hard.

    Further, as your kind of Jayne Mansfield supporting fossil would not have time to learn, or begin to understand; the right to food, and the right to shelter, which ought to have been amended to the universal human rights charter, if it were not for the objections and the veto of the “freedom lovin democratic” US efforts in the UN.

    How about a far more simpler solution to your xenophobia? Stop your “governments” fucking around in the far off lands and nicking the chattel and wares of the would be immigrants? These would be “immigrants” lacking any means of supporting themselves in their own countries of origin, up sticks and set off on the road as itinerant labour prepared to do any kind of work. Included to put up with playing punch bag to the bigots and politicians alike. There seems to be a lot of pleasure derived from abusing these immigrants, by certain cretinous elements in every society. Fact that these would be “immigrants” would far rather stay with their own families and circle of friends and enjoy their lives, instead of setting off on journeys in search of jobs and a better life, because their own country has been sucked off dry by the sanctimonious bastards who keep abusing them in the first place.

    Stop meddling in other nations affairs, and let the people of the world have the opportunity of earning a livelihood in their own lands wherever these maybe. Whilst Syrians are getting “helped” to be “free and democratic”, Iraqis are too busy coping with their “freedom an democracy”, same as the Afghans, Yemenies, Libyans, Somalians, ………. there will always be a stream of vulnerable butts to be kicked by the likes of you and your mates, the suck up and kick down wankers who can hardly fight their way out of a fucking paper bag, getting pleasured playing the master race.

  415. Jemand, it depends what kind of society one wants to have. There’s always lots of money for dropping bombs on foreign people, it seems to me. People who live here or who become ill while visiting should be treated, free of charge. We all pay for one another. But whatever, I do not think that health professionals should become border guards. If they want us to start checking ID cards, insurance details, etc,. like in the USA, then the authorities can go to hell as far as I’m concerned.

  416. “If people are entitled to ‘free’ healthcare, surely they should be entitled to ‘free’ basic food and ‘free’ accomodation. How are these any different?”

    No different.

    They are entitled to those as well.

  417. *

    Hospital doctors announce decision to ignore the Ministry of Health directive and to continue treating undocumented migrants

    Prior to the May 6th elections, the minister of health, Loverdos, announced undocumented migrants were to no longer receive any treatment in public hospitals in Greece. In response, hospital doctors issued, through their union body, the following statement

    source in greek

    Doctors: “We will treat undocumented migrants. No to Loverdos’ credentials to the [Nazis of the] Golden Dawn!”

    http://blog.occupiedlondon.org/2012/05/17/hospital-doctors-announce-decision-to-ignore-the-ministry-of-health-directive-and-to-continue-treating-undocumented-migrants/

  418. Thanks, Fedup. Well argued with not a scintilla of sneering, psychotic rage and inane hostility. *hug*

    Suhayl, you said medical care should be “free” and then say “we all pay for one another”. May I suggest that both statements are incorrect. Inasmuch as you acknowledged that it is not indeed “free” but must be paid for and also that the burden of the cost is not equally or universally distributed.

    Furthermore, this issue has nothing to do with dropping bombs, directly, although the misallocation of resources does in fact impact on the quality of social services such as healthcare. When it comes to issues of finance, we can look at all wasteful expenses and say that they have the same financial impacts – ie money is fungible.

    I also think it is an exaggeration to say that health professionals will be required to act as border guards any more than bus conductors are tax collectors. They have a responsibility to account for their services and not simply bill the public for “free” delivery of unprovided services to anonymous or fictitious patients.

    Like I have said previously, if you all want to impose a moral obligation on yourselves to meet the burden of improving the lives of others, then you’d better back up your moral posturing with the means of delivering on your promises. Otherwise, you’re just writing blank cheques that bounce.

    PS – the above exchange is another example of conflating personal preference with observation and extrapolating all sorts of nasty character traits.

  419. Flaming June 30 Jun, 2013 – 10:41 am
    “Jeremy Hunt better head for the hills.”

    Yes he had. The (refreshingly radical?) pensioners group DAGE are so angry that Hunt will not talk to them they are organising a coach trip to visit him at home.

    DAGE broadcast on resonance. They are on at 14:00 today. It’s great radio.

    http://www.resonancefm.com

  420. Cornwall again. Poor man. Hope he has entitlement to NHS care and treatment. If not I hope he had his credit card handy as he was stretchered in, just like in Amerika (and Australia I believe?).

    Prussia Cove cliff fall man airlifted to hospitalA man has been airlifted to hospital after falling from cliffs in Cornwall.

    The man, who is in his 30s, fell about 35ft (11m) at Prussia Cove near Porthleven on Saturday evening.

    Falmouth Coastguard co-ordinated the rescue involving a helicopter from RNAS Culdrose and the Penzance coastguard team.

    The man was flown to Derriford Hospital in Plymouth with serious, but not life-threatening, injuries.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-23117205#

    ~~~

    The next move will be to exclude NHS patients from care if the injuries arise from sport or leisure activities.

  421. So while the government is throwing disabled people out of their homes for having a bedroom too many they have given the security services a 3% above inflation rise in their £1.9 billion budget.

  422. Thanks Phil I will try to catch it later.
    http://resonancefm.com/schedule

    The Lewisham hospital group who have their A&E and maternity services threatened have a ‘Hunt for Hunt’ campaign going, They recently went down to Farnham in Surrey, which is in his constituency, to beard him in his den.

    He picked up the poisoned chalice fron Lansley who now sits on the Front Bench organising the business. Milton, one of Lansley’s ministers, has been made a junior Whip, Burns has gone to Transport and the useless Burstow was kicked out of the government. He has the chutzpah now to concern himself with planned hospital closures in his constituency, afraid that he might lose his seat on the gravy train come 2015. I called him useless but he was not useless to his masters, at whose bidding he aided the imposition of the H&SC Act 2012 on the populace.

    Couldn’t make it up.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/liberaldemocrats/9528849/Paul-Burstow-criticises-dangerous-and-flawed-plans-to-close-hospitals-after-being-sacked-as-a-health-minister.html

  423. Flaming June 30 Jun, 2013 – 12:17 pm
    “They recently went down to Farnham in Surrey, which is in his constituency, to beard him in his den.”

    OK that’s presumably what I heard DAGE talking about. Great stuff.

  424. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 12:42 pm

    Jemand’s posts are convincing and he has had the better of his critics – the post at 11h30 is especially hard-hitting and, I think, unanswerable by any reasonably same person who approaches the matter with an open mind rather with the intent of sumply seeking to find fault in every single thing the UK govt. does.

    While on the subject, I refer to the following, posted at 10h41:

    “Mechanisms for collecting the cost of treatment from patients not entitled to NHS care already exist. Hospitals have finance departments for that purpose.”
    ________

    If that is the case, what is the poster complaining about wrt to these tightening up measures? And secondly, yes, there are finance departments, who seem unable, inter alia, to recover a deal of money from people who’ve had treatment and then buggered off abroad again.

  425. “if you all want to impose a moral obligation on yourselves to meet the burden of improving the lives of others” – we already have this obligation. It’s called ‘humanity’. It’s also, as Suhayl points out, entirely selfish: we all share the benefits.

    Of course, if you’d rather have a system where the efforts of the many increasingly and disproportionately benefit a very rich few (feudalism, I believe it used to be called, or slavery), then you seem to be in tune with government thinking.

    “then you’d better back up your moral posturing with the means of delivering on your promises” – syntactical confusion aside (is ‘posturing’ the same as ‘promising’?) are you really trying to address this to a doctor, among other people?

  426. Why on earth should we pay for these bloody foreigners to get free healthcare when its so much more efficient to bomb them to smithereens in their own lands?

    And its for their own good of course.How else would they receieve Freedom and Democracy??

    I jest,tragically,of course.

  427. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 1:20 pm

    “Cornwall again. Poor man. Hope he has entitlement to NHS care and treatment. If not I hope he had his credit card handy…”

    (post at 12h02 from she whose name one should apparently not mention)
    ____________

    He will most certainly have entitlement if he is lawfully resident in the UK or a bona fide visitor.

    Most govts advise their citizens to take out insurance when travelling abroad to top up medical cover and to ensure that treatment where required is financially affordable.

    Hope this clarifies.

  428. doug scorgie

    30 Jun, 2013 - 1:20 pm

    Phil
    29 Jun, 2013 – 1:09 pm

    “So, what do you think of Left Unity? I am no particular fan of Loach but considering the labour party is lost, is this the only game in town?”

    You could be right Phil but without the financial backing of the unions I fear it will fail.

  429. Well done. As usual, emotional resonance takes precedence over logical coherence – because it feels good.

    An intellectually poor attempt was made to falsely imply that I am advocating a bad system over a good one. If I am going to advocate for any particular system, it would be one that simultaneously delivers high quality health care and is fully paid for. Not one that promises quality and then delivers excuses because of financial problems.

    But the reality is too much to bear for fantasists. You can spend your whole GDP on health care and people will still be sick and dying. How do you explain that? 

    Dream on dreamers, and whinge and whine all you like because you can’t change a basic fact of humanity – we don’t work for “free”.

  430. Flaming June

    30 Jun, 2013 - 1:38 pm

    ‘….we don’t work for “free”.’

    You would be surprised at how many people in the UK work for free, either as volunteers or actually in employment on rock bottom wages. Have you heard of workfare?

  431. “we don’t work for “free”..

    We can. All that is required is evolution in our consciousness. Dollars destroy everything. An RBE will hold back our end of life.

  432. doug scorgie

    30 Jun, 2013 - 1:46 pm

    Flaming June
    29 Jun, 2013 – 5:59 pm

    “I am sending it to my MP, who is a Conservative, with a plea to Cameron not to supply further arms or weaponry to the rebels.”

    Take care Mary:

    “The Malicious Communications Act. That Act, from 1988, says that someone who sends another person material which is grossly offensive or indecent and is sent in order to cause the recipient distress or anxiety is guilty of an offence. The offence can apply to letters, email and other forms of communication.”

    http://www.out-law.com/page-7803

  433. Good luck with your system of volunteer doctors, nurses, anaesthetists, orderlies, cleaners, technicians, administrators, ambulance drivers etc etc. I should imagine service quality will improve with having volunteers too.

    Obviously you will save some money by eliminating the accounts department, obviated by your “free” system of health care for anonymous patients because everything is “free” and service delivery cannot be traced to an end user. I think astronomers call that a ‘black hole’.

  434. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 2:00 pm

    “emotional resonance takes precedence over logical coherence – because it feels good.”

    please demonstrate the ‘illogicality’: please also clear up your syntactical confusion earlier?

    nothing necessarily wrong in ‘feeling good’ by the way – as your like-minded poster, Habbakuk is consistently underlining. Of course, since life is nuanced, it all depends on what makes you ‘feel ood’: I wouldn’t advise it for a psychopath.

    “Not one that promises quality and then delivers excuses because of financial problems” – do you know anything about the appropriation of NHS funding by managers and PFI schemes? I think you cannot. Please read up.

    “But the reality is too much to bear for fantasists. You can spend your whole GDP on health care and people will still be sick and dying. How do you explain that?”

    Is this meant to be logical? People will always get sick and, yes, we will all die. The issue under discussion was the refusal of medical intervention to a certain section of people: the Greek doctors in the link I gave above had a word for them. Incidentally, I admire the conflation of doctors and bus conductors earlier: have met many decent bus conductors who have let poor people on without paying. Less able to do so now, of course, thanks to surveillance by much richer people, who one rarely sees on public transport.

  435. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 2:01 pm

    correction ‘good’.

  436. doug scorgie

    30 Jun, 2013 - 2:03 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    29 Jun, 2013 – 8:50 pm

    “Doug Scorgie. 1.58pm Radonski Caprile is a bad loser.”

    “Thank you for reminding us that the full name of the losing candidate in the recent Presidential election in Venezuela is “Radonski Caprile”.

    Playing games again HB.
    You “forgot” to state that the message you referred to was from Flaming June but implying it was from me.

    My post:
    doug scorgie
    29 Jun, 2013 – 1:58 pm

    The Venezuelan right-wing only accepts democracy if they win:
    “As part of ongoing attempts to prevent President Nicolas Maduro from consolidating his leadership in the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, right-wing forces at home and abroad have reissued false claims that he was born in neighboring Colombia.”

    http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/9771
    You have to laugh really.

    June’s post:
    Flaming June
    29 Jun, 2013 – 6:13 pm

    “Doug Scorgie. 1.58pm Radonski Caprile is a bad loser.”

    You’re not as clever as I thought you were HB and you underestimate people on this blog.

  437. Were the parasitic elites not continually fleecing us, there’d be plenty to go around.

    A system which is little more than skimming, numbers and protection rackets should not be expected to provide good outcomes.

  438. Another heart-wrenching, gut-churning glimpse of our Uzbek “friends”

    Indie Article

    Letter to our Dave

  439. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 2:17 pm

    Jemand: George Monbiot’s The Captive State v good on the insane and destructive extortion created by PFI hospital schemes, also Alyson Pollock, Private Eye etc etc etc.

  440. doug scorgie

    30 Jun, 2013 - 2:20 pm

    Nevermind
    29 Jun, 2013 – 11:13 pm

    “I’m appalled at the impotence of the UN and the ease by which its various hands are being corrupted and bend over to suit crooks.”

    I have no doubt that all the senior UN officials have been spied on and blackmailed by the west’s security services. That is how they operate.

  441. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 2:25 pm

    @ Doug Scorgie :

    My sentence read as follows :

    “Thank you for reminding us that the full name of the losing candidate in the recent Presidential election in Venezuela is “Radonski Caprile”.”
    _____________

    From where do you deduce that the “you” in this sentence referred to you and not to Flaming June/Mary?

    As my post quoted the first line of Mary’s, I think most normal readers would probably be able to figure out to whom my comment was addressed. But do please tell us why you think otherwise (if you “could be arsed” to do so, of course).

  442. ‘The issue under discussion was the refusal of medical intervention to a certain section of people’

    Trans- The issue under discussion is whether the delivery of healthcare in the UK should be via a ‘National Heath Service’ (as recommended by Jemand) or via an ‘International Health Service open to all comers(as recommended by FedUP, Technicolour and any other Mrs Jellaby thinkalikes on this thread).

  443. doug scorgie

    30 Jun, 2013 - 2:35 pm

    Flaming June
    30 Jun, 2013 – 7:00 am

    That old D notice thing rearing its ugly head again?

    http://www.newssniffer.co.uk/articles/658994/diff/1/2

    Well spotted Mary

  444. Habby’s post to which Doug refers above is reproduced in full below.

    Thanks, Doug.

    You’ve not only exposed an attempted subterfuge but even more dishonesty in the attempt to cover it up.

    What sort of character does things like this?

    Can we please be rid of it, once and for all!!

    =================================================================================

    “Doug Scorgie. 1.58pm Radonski Caprile is a bad loser.”
    _____________

    Thank you for reminding us that the full name of the losing candidate in the recent Presidential election in Venezuela is “Radonski Caprile”.

    Well, except that it’s actually CaprileS (father’s surname) Radonski (mother’s surname).

    Given the attachment some commenters have to giving Mr Capriles his full name,I am somewhat surprised that they have never referred to the winner, commonly known as Mr Nicolas Maduro, as Mr Nicolas Maduro Moros. Could it be that the part-surname “Radonski” is of particular significance for them?

    ****************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/pandering-to-racism/comment-page-2/#comment-415456

    ====================================================================================

  445. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 2:48 pm

    “International Health Service open to all comers as recommended by…”: I’ve been responding. Much depends on what the government categorise as ‘emergency treatment’, but in the meantime it seems a move of intellectual paucity, financial triviality and an appeal to knee-jerk prejudices.

  446. Uzbeks tortured me, says British Embassy man

    Former Foreign Office employee says he has been abandoned, despite refusing to spy on UK

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uzbeks-tortured-me-says-british-embassy-man-8679979.html

  447. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 2:54 pm

    Imagine you are a doctor, and someone arrives with a suppurating eye infection. It might not be a life-threatening emergency: it is, however, agonising, debilitating and easily cured. Are others on this board seriously suggesting that that doctor should refuse to treat them?

  448. Ah, so FJ is Mary. The need for aliases is awful perplexing.

    At least this posters penchant to bombarded us with off topic, offensive, hateful statements makes sense now.

  449. ‘Are others on this board seriously suggesting that that doctor should refuse to treat them?’

    Of course not. If the person presenting with such a condition is an EEA national, reciprocal treatment rights should apply. If the person is from another 1st world country (NZ., Japan etc) their travel insurance should cover the cost of treatment. If the person is from a country known to have a high propensity of its nationals to be visa overstayers, the proposed £3000 bond would be forfeited in whole of in part, to pay for the treatment.

    Enough shroud waving already !

  450. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 3:15 pm

    ah, ‘make Mary the topic time’. I see.

  451. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 3:16 pm

    Old mark: thanks. What if they are Somali?

  452. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 3:16 pm

    Remember when Wikileaks released the US diplomatic cables ‘embarassing’ Hillary?

    “Der Spiegel reported that the US had bugged offices and gained access to EU internal computer networks, according to secret documents, the latest in a series of exposures of alleged US spying.

    The magazine quoted from a “top secret” US National Security Agency (NSA) document from September 2010 that it said former NSA contractor Edward Snowden had taken with him, and which its journalists had seen in part.

    Der Spiegel said the document outlines how the NSA bugged offices and spied on EU internal computer networks in Washington and at the UN, listening to conversations and phone calls and gaining access to documents and emails. It said the document explicitly called the EU a target.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/30/us-clarification-us-spying-nsa

  453. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 3:30 pm

    I didn’t see that Der Spiegel was specifically targeted.

    “The prospects for a new trade pact between the US and the European Union worth hundreds of billions have suffered a severe setback following allegations that Washington bugged key EU offices and intercepted phonecalls and emails from top officials.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/30/nsa-spying-europe-claims-us-eu-trade

  454. Flaming June

    30 Jun, 2013 - 3:30 pm

    Thousands and thousands of Egyptians are in Tahrir Square. They do not like Shillary’s stooge, Morsi. 22 million people have signed a petition demanding that he ‘step down’.

    Egypt protest: Thousands stage anti-Morsi rallieshttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23115821

    Bowen has just been on giving his two pennorth. ‘Deteriorating conditions in Eqypt are leading to this unrest. Unemployment is high and the young especially feel discontented at the lack of dialogue.’

    Now when and where else have we been hearing that?

    ~~~

    Cameron pledges to ‘stand together’ with Pakistan on terrorism’. Any Pakistani people surviving Obomber’s drone attacks will probably be able to ‘stand’ too. Now he’s in Kazakhstan on a trade (arms?) mission.

    Perhaps he will pick up some tips from Nazarbayev for success at the polls in 2015.

    ‘On April 3, 2011 he was again elected President of the Republic of Kazakhstan supported by 95.5 per cent of electors.’ Wow! He must be popular.

    No irony in the Guardian headline. B.Liar is on a retainer isn’t he?

    Kazakhstan praises Cameron and Blair for helping improving country’s image
    As he flies into central Asian republic, British PM says he will raise Kazakhstan’s poor human rights record with its president
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/30/kazakhstan-cameron-blair-human-rights

  455. Flaming June

    30 Jun, 2013 - 3:36 pm

    ‘The CE’ needs to wake up. Bit slow on the uptake there. And a rather garbled message.

    CE? ? Any of these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE

  456. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 3:41 pm

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323419604578571601908964678.html?mod=wsj_share_tweet

    “But in the note, Mr. Assange also offered public-relations advice to top Ecuadorean officials about how to handle the crisis. Mr. Assange’s earlier efforts on Mr. Snowden’s behalf had prompted one diplomat to caution that Mr. Assange could be perceived as “running the show” in Ecuador.”

    I’m sure someone seeks to stoke the fire of power for their own purposes. Kerry undoubtedly cited numerous ‘disadvantages’ to giving asylum.

  457. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 3:44 pm

    “I’m shocked….shocked to see there’s gambling going on here”

    http://www.juancole.com/2013/06/collects-internet-connections.html

  458. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 3:50 pm

    Herbie; I was half-way through cocktail time last eve and my reply to you could be misunderstood.

    Cheers.

  459. doug scorgie

    30 Jun, 2013 - 3:59 pm

    Flaming June
    30 Jun, 2013 – 7:09 am

    Medics recruited to join UK Border Agency.
    http://news.sky.com/story/1109710/nhs-tourism-govt-to-announce-crackdown

    Mary, this is complete bullshit by the government; it is another “knock the foreigners” political ploy.

    I will return to this subject later when I get time.

  460. I made a rather poor joke, Ben, and you were very tolerant in reply.

    Thanks.

  461. Flaming June

    30 Jun, 2013 - 4:38 pm

    An invitation here to join a party to celebrate the 65th birthday of the NHS.

    5th July 2013 2pm
    Trafford General Hospital, Urmston, Manchester M41 5SL

    http://unite.newsweaver.co.uk/1s88loxzbd9voxu9d3q2j0?
    email=true&a=11&p=37346335

    As it says –

    We are celebrating 65 years of our NHS – the greatest social benefit of any government – but our message is serious.

    If we don’t act to save it – we will lose it.

    The coalition government’s pro-privatisation NHS shake up coupled with a multi-billion pound funding squeeze is putting our NHS at grave risk.

    Local communities are losing A&E units, hospital beds, maternity wards, and other NHS services. Waiting queues are growing, rationing is rife and, staff not sacked, are being overstretched to breaking point.

    Picking up the pieces are private companies who are set to make billions of pounds from our health.

    Join us to help celebrate our brilliant

  462. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 4:42 pm

    @ Mary/April Showers/Flaming June/…? :

    No chance that The CE was being gently ironical, I suppose?

    Nah, you wouldn’t know irony if it slapped you in the face :)

  463. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 4:55 pm

    @ Technicolour

    “Old mark: thanks. What if they are Somali?
    _______________

    I think Old Mark has dealt with your question rather well. I hope you’re happy!

    And now let’s cut through your clever-clever stuff and get serious.

    What would you – yes, you, Technicolour – suggest

    1) should be done to prevent illegal immigration

    2) should be done with over-stayers if they’re discovered.

    My questions assume, of course, that you are not in favour of illegal immigration.

  464. “But the reality is too much to bear for fantasists. You can spend your whole GDP on health care and people will still be sick and dying. How do you explain that? ”

    That’s easy, the death rate never changes, it’s one per person, always has been.

    The problem is that the health system isn’t designed to cure people who are ill any more, it is designed to make the shareholders of large drug companies, including the ones sitting in the House of Commons, rich.

    The drug companies invent a new drug then they invent a new disease for it to cure then invent a new drug to counteract the side effects.

    If they just stop handing over so much of our money to rich drug companies there will be plenty left for curing people who are actually ill.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1369125/

  465. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 5:16 pm

    Habbakuk – thanks for the intervention. But I think I’ll wait for Old Mark to actually reply to my question; only polite, you know.

  466. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 5:17 pm

    btw “You didn’t like Mubarak very much (he was an American stooge). And now you don’t seem to like Morsi very much either – apparently he’s an American stooge as well” – absolutely!¬Well spotted!

  467. “I know you’re busy with other ‘scoops’.”

    Yes, like this one perhaps. Dedicated to Flaming June, soon to return as Mary, or perhaps Hotter than July? :

    Cost of updating Parliament toilets to be £100,000

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-23117369

  468. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 5:20 pm

  469. Thanks for that from Egypt June, another sucker who has been exposed for taking the piss with the aspirations of young Egyptians. I eminent Egyptian scholars and Professors warn of impending civil war, with sectarian divides further blurring the lines of accountability and lawful judicial discourse.

    Villager’s amourous chit chat with Habby here, their common love to verbalise what their posts produce, is all beginning to look like a happy ending is near, when is the date?

    How about the 4th July, such fitting special day for all global lovers of freedom and democracy via the barrel of a gun, I’m sure people will come. Don’t worry about the beads and wind chimes along the isle, it’ll be fine.

  470. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 6:29 pm

    ‘Villager’s amourous chit chat with Habby here, their common love to verbalise what their posts produce, is all beginning to look like a happy ending is near, when is the date?’

    oh for heaven’s sake.

  471. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 6:36 pm

    @ Technicolour

    Never mind Nevermind, he can’t help it. Too many high altitude flights with defective equipment. Oxygen starvation. Terrible thing, you know.

  472. Fred, the pharmaceuticals industry is very much part of the bigger problem of health care economics. And I think several factors make this so.

    Having said that, modern medicine is remarkably new (~130yrs) and in due course, many of the essential pharmaceuticals developed in the last 50 years will fall in price as patents expire leading to competition.

  473. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 6:39 pm

    I have a happy vision of several people who commonly insult each other on this board ensconced together in a pub and laughing uproariously. Cheeky monkeys ;)

  474. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 6:40 pm

    Did you look up PFI yet, Jemand?

  475. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 6:41 pm

    @ Villager :

    “Hotter than July” !! Precious!!!!! :)

    Alpha plus for that one!

  476. @Jives. 1 19pm

    “…its so much more efficient to bomb them to smithereens in their own lands?”

    Not only pissed off but also off-piste again.

    Surely it is simply an issue of how we frame the action of dropping high explosives and depleted uranium to save lives and improve everything in far off dictatorships.

    Think not of bombs but of “seeds of democracy” and voila, the issue is suddenly resolved!

  477. Flaming June

    30 Jun, 2013 - 7:02 pm

    Is there a collective noun for trolls?

  478. And anyway once those nasty dictators start thinking about alternative currencies, domestic oil revenues, greening deserts and the like, the next thing you know they’ll be independent of the western sphere of influence. Perish the thought.

    Our leaders have difficult decisions to make and sometimes they have to be cruel to be kind. It doesn’t help them when you criticise everything they do.

  479. “Villager’s amourous (sic) ….

    How about the 4th July, such fitting special day (sic) for all global lovers of freedom and democracy via the barrel of a gun, I’m sure people will come.”

    Never-a-mind sounds like you’re a bit lonely and need to come. :-) Sure you’re on the right website here?

    Btw, just a tip (pun intended), under new regulations (which expressly include failed-foreign-petty-politicians) in case you don’t sort out your English, you may not be entitled to your benefits.

    GET TO WORK!

  480. FJ. 7 02pm

    It’s trolls.

  481. On topic.

    Reginald D. hunter on racism (1 06mins)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg6CTFwOalc

  482. Flaming June

    30 Jun, 2013 - 7:38 pm

    Unusual to find words like these from one of the stenographers– to-power.

    The British – supine to the last when it comes to America – are of course silent.

    It’s Alex Thomson on Channel 4 News’ Snowmail who engages in the usual derisory descriptions of Edward Snowden….fugitive…mole…

    ‘Anger grows over claims NSA bugged EU offices

    Astonishing language being fired off by senior European politicians at the USA tonight – not least by the Germans. ‘Abhorrent’, ‘disgusting’, ‘treating us like the enemy’, ‘Cold War tactics’, ‘like the Stasi’ are just some of the accusations being levelled at Washington if it is proven they have indeed been spying on EU offices. Well – they pretty much seem to have been spying on everyone and everything else – if the tip-offs by the still-stranded Mr Snowden are reliable.

    US and EU reaction appears to confirm that the leaks from the fugitive intelligence officer to Der Spiegel magazine are indeed reliable, with the documents to back them up, according to the magazine. The resulting language is the like of which we have not seen being traded across the Atlantic in many a long year.

    The British – supine to the last when it comes to America – are of course silent. Not so the Germans and others. Not so at all.

    For now US President Barack Obama – who has been caught out as a devotee of interfering with people’s communications up to and including diplomats and journalists before now – seems to think the only game in town is apprehending Mr Snowden.

    Pretty soon he is going to have to deal with what the mole has leaked, rather than the simple (and as yet quite ineffective) manhunt for the leaker. Jane Dodge has been digging.’

    ex Medialens

  483. Kibo, consider my last post to you on the UN thread (good omen) as an olive branch. Please understand, my essential quarrel was not with you (by definition) personally but with the lack of attention to the issue in moderation, given the rapidly deteriorating situation at the time on the blog overall. In the spirit of Technicolour’s comment above i’d be quite happy to share a bowl of noohdles with you sometime.

  484. ‘Trollers’ Mary – ‘Fishing’ for interpersonal conflict and shock-value controversy by those predisposed to antagonism.

  485. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 8:59 pm

    Well said Mark. Free speech has it’s limits in the US. You can’t falsely yell ‘FIRE’ in a crowded theater.

  486. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 9:04 pm

    June; I saw this morning that Der Spiegel was specifically targeted. This is no Benghazi kerfluffle.

  487. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 9:11 pm

  488. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 9:11 pm

    (sorry)

  489. “Did you look up PFI yet, Jemand?”

    No, sorry. I’m busy having an interesting conversation with my cat.

    Can you look it up and get back to me with the gist of it? 

    Thanks.

  490. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 9:13 pm

    Ah, Jemand, and I was trying to take your comments as though they were being made by someone who was worth responding too, and/or knew what they were on about. Please accept my apologies. In all seriousness, I do realise that cats are more fun than facts :)

  491. You misunderstand Technicolour. What I mean is that conversing with my cat is more informative and interesting than engaging with you. I thought you would have understood that.

  492. On the whole; the more shit… Sorry for the unflavourable language. We consume the mor vat we pay to the government.

    Of which come’s back in health care.

    On the whole! It is all equatable.

    Education would reasonanly suffice but with no restraint on idiocracy.
    The shit stick’s continiously.

    As usual the weak and unfortunate fall behind ad hominem.

  493. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 9:53 pm

    In case anyone is puzzling over the posts from Technicolour and Villager (both at 17h17), they are referring to a post of mine of a little earlier, which questioned a couple of elements in an O/T post by Mary/April Showers/Flaming June, namely (1) that 22 million Egyptians had signed a petition against President Morsi and (2) that Morsi was an American stooge.

    I asked for the source of the claim about the 22 million, signatories and also asked Mary whether there was any potential Egyptian leader wholm she would not accuse of being an American stooge.

    Needless to say, that post of mine was soon deleted.

    It is beginning to look as if Mary (and Doug Scorgie, who was also briefly alluded to in my post) are rapidly becoming protected species.

    ****************

    La vita è bella, life is good (I post, you might be offended, he/she/it censors…)

  494. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 9:55 pm

    er, naturally, but the issue you had was, you said, about a system “that promises quality and then delivers excuses because of financial problems.”

    equally naturally, i presumed you’d have some kind of idea about what engendered the ‘financial problems’ – or be interested in their causes.

    hey, we can’t all be aware of stuff. cats are great; enjoy.

  495. technicolour

    30 Jun, 2013 - 9:57 pm

    sorry; above to Jemand. habbakuk yep, would also like to see source for that 22 million.

  496. Noted Mark. :)

    Technicolour Yes. Man has now become Creator. There has hardly been any comment in depth on what is being proposed and no thought of what the repercussions and future consequences might be.

    Heard that Agent Cameron is being accompanied by a party of 30 British business heads on his visit to Kazakhstan. Bet there is some representation of arms manufacture amongst them. Shades of previous visits to other cruel dictatorships like Bahrain and Saudi Arabia.

    Land transit rights are being sought for getting our junk out of Afghanistan. I think Craig told us that Hammond has already done a deal with Karimov for the same.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/30/us-kazakhstan-britain-cameron-idUSBRE95T08S20130630http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/30/us-kazakhstan-britain-cameron-idUSBRE95T08S20130630

  497. well, there we are, a quick search for the 22 million petition and here:

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/22-million-sign-anti-morsi-petition-egypt-opposition.aspx?pageID=238&nID=49706&NewsCatID=352

    and here:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/29/anti-morsi-petition_n_3521595.html

    ‘claims’ you note. but if anyone has taken any interest in Egypt after the flash-bangs of excited temporary reporting a while back, significant numbers are not surprising.

  498. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 10:06 pm

    @ Technicolour

    “equally naturally, i presumed you’d have some kind of idea about what engendered the ‘financial problems’ – or be interested in their causes.”
    ______________

    On the assumption that what is meant are the financial problems of the NHS, then the answer is simple : it is the problem of unlimited demand for a product or service which is free at the point of delivery to the consumer or user.

    (And, btw, re-assigning govt expenditure tends merely to shift the problem to other areas where there is similar unlimited (and expanding) demand for same (eg, social security).
    (And before someone says “defence”, look up the figures for govt expenditure on the NHS, social security, pensions and defence, pls)

  499. “it is the problem of unlimited demand for a product or service which is free at the point of delivery to the consumer or user.”

    Habbakuk, my dear, I wish I thought that, but I have read too many facts, Many of them from the Telegraph:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8877412/NHS-among-best-health-care-systems-in-the-world.html

    That was our model.

  500. Jon, since i’ve read Habby’s protest, will you delete this provocation also:

    “Flaming June
    30 Jun, 2013 – 7:02 pm
    Is there a collective noun for trolls?”

    Actually my TRUE view is that there is now a risk that the pendulum will swing the other way — too much snipping, whereas it may logically be the case that water might find its own balance.

    If Habby’s tone is respectful, why protect any species. Learning to ignore certain people or even have a civil laugh at their expense, is part of life! In the end people can only reach the nirvana that all posters and non-posters aspire to, by dissolving the self, the ego. Plenty of opportunity here in a relatively safe virtual environment.

    “”A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest… a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.”
    ALBERT EINSTEIN

  501. hello, Villager, how interesting compared to nhs funding racism etc – and this has what to do with anything but yourself, precisely?

  502. What is the name for someone who is being trolled?

  503. so, back the the nhs and the current associations of racist discrimination -

  504. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 10:30 pm

    @ Technicolour (re Morsi and the petition)

    Thanks for the links.

    But I must say I’m still doubtful. Disinformation and false claims are perhaps not a monopoly of the evil West or the satanic Israelis; perhaps the wily Arab is also a practicioner of these dark arts.

    Seriously though, if you calculate on the basis of the figures given in the first link, to get to a figure of 22 million signatures you would have to accept that not only ALL the votes which went against Morsi at the Presidential election signed this petition but also that 10 million of the 25 million voters who did not vote at all in that election were sufficiently stirred to sign. I don’t know whether that’s entirely convincing.

  505. ‘back to the nhs’ – drat

  506. “What is the name for someone who is being trolled?”

    again, if that is you, mary, this has very little to do with the issues at hand.

  507. “But I must say I’m still doubtful.” – always good. Will dig, when I finish this chunk of work….

  508. HI TC yes i realise Einstein is difficult to understand, but in this case not precisely. If i understand your question precisely, the cue lies in the optical delusion. Nodding off now so more about the NHS tomorrow if you’re around.

    Meantime thanks for the daily mash.

    Over on media lens and dissident voice there is a great concern and debate raging as to whether FJ will self-destruct at midnight tonight, in the spirit of Y2K.

  509. but whether it is 22 million or 20 million, or 10 – people in Egypt, from my sources, are horrified by what has happened to the people’s revolution, It was taken over by the resident spy chief, as I remember. good grief.

    there is another possibility, where the ‘ruling elites’ do not have to be scared of losing, you know.

  510. Technicolour…’very little to do with the matters in hand.’

    Not if you are someone who is singled out, picked at and picked upon. Read back a bit. There in black and white.

  511. Mark Steel on Racism, albour and the BNP:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UIN1NM7GlE

    ………….

    @Villager. 3 08pm on “Work for the UN” thread.

    “Yes, just more evidence of schizophrenia.

    On a serious note, don’t dismiss it easily. But also don’t be disheartened for i believe your objectives are true but your methods are destined to lose. Forget about analysis and narratives and tipping points. Focus on your self so that you may access insights. The only tipping point perhaps is when there comes a critical mass through a change in our collective human consciousness which is different from collective beliefs and ideologies etc.
    http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/about-krishnamurti/the-core-of-the-teachings.php”
    ……..

    That’s a peace offering?

    First you psycho-analyse me.

    Then you diss the stuff I feel deeply to be important. Who the hell gave you the right to tell me what issues to forget?

    Then you talk as if I had taken you on as my personal guru. Well thanks a bunch, but no thanks.

    WTF entitles you to make such assumptions and give such instructions?

    I take the piss when I witness bullying and pompous bullshit. And occasionally with genuine posters who I know can take it in the spirit in which it’s offered. (Thanks Jives, Ben, Technicolour other surviving victims.)

    As regards Krishnamurti, I’ve no argument with him and I’m sure he had great wisdom to share. Are you sure he would really have chosen to have you use him to score points?

    I’ll happily disengage from your posts if you enter into the spirit of the blog and stop asking for it.

    (Sample: Villager
    18 Jun, 2013 – 12:00 am
    “Kibo don’t venture towards Krishnamurti, not for children.”

    Also why do you go bleating continually Jon? He’s shown he’s a big boy, generously doing a rotten job. He’s asked us to allow him to use his judgement. So what if he zaps us now and then, or doesn’t zap those who we would have liked him to? Craig clearly trusts him to do his fallible best.

    You know as well as I do that Sofia’s sock-puppetry was continually being flagged by, well, Sofia herself. That was a pretty obvious clue if you ask me. That’s why it was so unintentionally funny when you sought to steal all the credit for working out what everyone had known all the time. And that’s the first time I’ve teased you for that because I felt it would have been cruel.

    If you were for a moment deceived into thinking she was offering a real 13.5 year old’s perspective then, I suggest, you need a lot more help than Mr Krishnamurti could ever have given you.

    You’ll find Kibo/Sofie’s piss-taking is generally a response to a post. Part of the cut and thrust of threads which, at best, tests to destruction those narratives that you so often seek to shepherd us away from.

    Let’s lighten up on the hostilities up by all means. But not at the price of turning the comments section into a kind of sanitized Green Zone, with all the life and humour of a mouldy sponge.

  512. villager, einstein is just normal. i was referring to your peculiar and lengthy plea to the moderator about something completely distracting and different, but carry on, why not.

  513. “Imagine you are a doctor, and someone arrives with a suppurating eye infection. It might not be a life-threatening emergency: it is, however, agonising, debilitating and easily cured. Are others on this board seriously suggesting that that doctor should refuse to treat them?” Technicolour, earlier today.

    Totally agree, Technicolour. Anyone in authority who suggests that treatment of a human being should be withheld or premised on ability to pay, or that I even consider requesting proof of insurance will receive a Glasgow Kiss, personally, from me (in line with the Hippocratic Oath).

  514. Is there a collective noun for trolls?

    Useless fucking trolls.

    Mind you have managed to get under their skin pretty good, in any opportunity (almost all the time) they are whinging, whining and calling for “mod” to “sir” them so they could delete your posts, and banish you to the four winds.

    This is then passed as debate. Although I don’t read any of the wankers’ “contributions” but scrolling past I can see Flaming June said this and said that. June dearest you have my vote, and thanks for your comments, keep up the good work.

  515. Flaming June. 10:30 pm

    “What is the name for someone who is being trolled?”

    How about an asset to the blog?

  516. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 10:57 pm

    @ Technicolour

    Is there a contradiction between the British NHS being the best in the world (if true) and the fact that it is also an example of unlimited demand for a product which is free at the point of delivery (and this in a context of finite resources)?

    If there is not, then I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make with your post and link.

    ________________

    BTw I did read your link…and some of the commenbts from readers on the Telegraph’s two year old article. The “best” claim comes from a report from the Commonwealth Fund, which is an American institute apparently favorable to President Obama’s proposed healthcare reforms.

    One of the comments I saw however siad, and I quote :

    “The Commonwealth Fund report is at variance with analyses of the OECD and the Euro Health Consumer Index, both of which rate the NHS poorly.The difference is that they look at the availability of treatment, outcomes and efficiency” (Habbabkuk note : the Commonwealth Funhd report appears to focus on speed of access to GPs, the coordination of care and number of medical errors))

  517. Mary: “singled out, picked at and picked upon” – yes, it was awful. And I was not the only one to be keeping a close eye. But being supported with vicious if ultimately ineffective insults (Nevermind, Doug Scorgie) made it much harder. I’m sorry that it made it harder to support you.

    But can we move on now, perhaps?

    Habbakuk, you’ve chosen a few vague things at your leisure. I think you are possibly not connected with anyone poor, or vulnerable, and therefore do not care much about them. That is, of course, your prerogative, The facts though, about the creation of the NHS, its sincere purpose, and the people who have since dedicated themselves to it remain; they humble me. Perhaps not you.

  518. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 11:12 pm

    @ Technicolour

    Thanks for your latest – and for staying on a subject of substance.

    I do think that it would be important to know what the real number was. The reason for saying that is this : it would be reasonable to assume that all of those who voted for candidates other than Morsi would sign the petition – this brings us to a little over 12 million signatories (just under half of the 25 or so million who exercised their vote in the Presidential election).
    So if the number of signatories is almost double that number, it is impressive and rather significant. But if nearer 13 or 14 million, then rather less so.

    Having said that, I’m sure we’ll never know the real figure.

  519. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jun, 2013 - 11:19 pm

    @ Technicolour

    “Habbakuk, you’ve chosen a few vague things at your leisure. I think you are possibly not connected with anyone poor, or vulnerable, and therefore do not care much about them. That is, of course, your prerogative, The facts though, about the creation of the NHS, its sincere purpose, and the people who have since dedicated themselves to it remain; they humble me. Perhaps not you.”
    _____________

    You’re not that different from the Eminences, are you. When stuck for a reply of substance or out of arguments….make it personal!

  520. in many ways,’knowing the real figure’ is ultimately irrelevant, because many people will not vote, or sign a petition at all. The background truth is that, all around the world, young people ( I think younger than the people on this blog) are rising up in horror, backed by large numbers of everyone else, of whatever age. It doesn’t matter where they live: the issues of environmental pollution, corporate control, totalitarian spying, threats of violence, evidence of murder and torture, are the same.

    so do we support them? I say hell, yeah.i want a world where i can face my grandchildren.

  521. …. sneering, psychotic rage and inane hostility …

    No shit Sherlock!

    To witness some old fart begrudging another human being relief from pain and agony, because the poor bastard has not the means of paying for any kind of medical care, ought to be a cause for sneering and rage.

    The unbelievable mean spirited attitude of some of the contributors, who have been going on record without any shame, will turn any sane and normal human being’s stomach. On one hand there is the bail out of the bankers, costing trillions, which is good for we the people. On the other paying to pull some poor bastards appendix out proves too much for the rich tossers who are running the dog and pony show and calling it democracy.

    Mind beggars belief at the inhumanity of the decisions which are being taken in the name of making savings. One hundred billion on Trident, and then some on Aircraft carriers, not forgetting the spies sand fuck knows what else, but make savings through picking on the dying, sick and the poor by not paying their benefits, or claw back their benefits through trumped up bedroom tax charges, and better yet get the “immigrants” ie “illegal asylum seekers” to pay their own way for their way for medical care.

    Then even more bizarre is to find certain characters* on this blog approving of these reactionary and weird measures floated by the out of touch and pampered elite.

    However the same gubermint has the money for SOCMINT;
    Special UK Police Units SOCMINT Watching Your Every Move On Social Media

    UK’s sweeping surveillance is going beyond the GCHQ phone and online eavesdropping. A special police unit has reportedly been scanning what British citizens are posting online in social networks.

    #
    #

    * These characters probably used to torture their pet animals in childhood, and during their adolescence, and have since qualified to kick around the “immigrants”. Muslims, and illegal asylum seekers.

  522. “You’re not that different from the Eminences,,,When stuck for a reply of substance or out of arguments….make it personal!”

    ouch – and I would try not to hold it against you. but of course things are a bit personal. we are alive and ourselves – and individuals. we all have different fingerprints.

    It’s odd, though, that the reality seems to bear out the peaceful majority. As in, there is enough food to go round ( if we weren’t wasting a third of it); there is no need to build drones; endless torture in Guantanamo doesn’t help anyone. I do wonder why that is?

  523. Habbabkuk, it doesn’t take long for false character flaws and imaginary personality traits to be attributed to you when you make an unwelcome observation. Some people call that ad hominem.

  524. Alan Campbell

    30 Jun, 2013 - 11:45 pm

    I’m sure it will be a nightmare to administrate this bond, but – just to play devil’s advocate – isn’t there a logic to this? Presumably the countries targeted, including Ghana, have low rates of GDP per capita and high rates of visitors absconding? Which won’t be the case for Israel or other more economically successful countries.

  525. Jemand, please don’t attack Habbakuk.

  526. Fedup, always good to read your posts. Who’s the “old fart” you witnessed doing some begrudging? And who the fuck do old people think they are, what with their old age, limited rights and whatnot?

    Why can’t they just accept that Generation Yo-Gabba-Gabba are now in charge and want a future where everything is free, people always smile and strangers hug each other in the street and meth-heads are happy and their dealers don’t short them on crystal? Do they even appreciate that Gen Y-GG brought Koni to trial in 2012 for crimes against the Pokemon generation?

    I think old people should be put in special prisons where they get ignored by their family – at least until they stop begrudging on others.

  527. A passing snap-shot of defense spending intelligently reveals an interesting consolidated cost.

    Military expenditure was £61Bn in 2012 (sipri database)

    Current cost of wars £20Bn (Daily Telegraph 20-6-2013) this figure is nearer £30Bn if Libya is included.

    The ‘special activities’ special reserve is about £20Bn

    GCHQ and intelligence services including signals and spies is approximately £10Bn

    Military subsidies, grants to universities engaged in defence, Porton Down, AWE operations, Trident program and NDA activities:

    £60Bn at a guess. That is £160Bn folks total. On what? Death?

    We spend much less in real terms (public/private claw-backs) on the NHS. Health? Life?

    We are consumed by death, by darkness. America and Britain must be the grim reapers; our lives a tomb.

  528. Israel or other more economically successful countries.

    Are you serious? Their economy is a basket case as the constant flow of the US et al “aid” funds into that basket case economy proves.

    However if the bond is to be taken at the point of application for visa, and as pointed to the low GDP of the target countries that would automatically blanket stop the would be visitors dead in their tracks from these countries.

  529. Who’s the “old fart” you witnessed doing some begrudging?

    Experiencing a senior moment there?

    Pitiful, just pitiful a garbled and confused comment, in rebuttal, which discounts the earlier “contribution” and then rips into some bizarre soliloquy of forgetfulness. Although there is a pointed effort to remain relevant and with it:

    people always smile and strangers hug each other in the street and meth-heads are happy and their dealers don’t short them on crystal?

    Fuck me with teachers the likes of you, there is not a strong enough psychotropic drug in existence to relieve the boredom or induce an amnesia of experiencing the tutelage!

    However the bitter and twisted hate so palpable and manifested itself proves the earlier contention forwarded with respect to pet animals and childhood.

    ======
    #
    #

    We spend much less in real terms (public/private claw-backs) on the NHS. Health? Life?

    We are consumed by death, by darkness. America and Britain must be the grim reapers; our lives a tomb.

    Thanks for the figures. The sad fact is, the darkness has consumed some souls to the extent that they no longer can find any compassion in their being for the next pilgrim along, and would rather gleefully enjoy the demise, pain, illness, and agony of others. Sad, and truly disgusting.

  530. NHS budget for this year is £109 billion.

    ANNUAL cost of wars in Afghanistan etc is nowhere near £20 bn although the total spent since 2002 is closer to £40 bn. “Military Subsidies”; figure a guess, plucked from thin air.

  531. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 1:44 am

    For your painted Celtic Barbarians.

    http://crookedtimber.org/

    “Anglo Irish Bank —Ireland’s third-largest bank and the most spectacular exemplar of the Celtic Tiger’s flameout— bet its future on loans to well-connected property developers. O’Toole suggests that “[i]t may be an exaggeration to call Anglo Irish a private bank for Fianna Fáil’s more flamboyant friends—but only a small one.” Not only did Anglo Irish itself invest heavily in the property market, but it lent more than 100 million euros to its chairman (as well as smaller sums to other directors) to speculate in property on his own account, and then hid the loan on its balance sheet through sleight of hand. The Central Bank–based regulator charged with regulating financial services knew about both the loans and the cover-up but declined to act. To borrow University College Dublin economist Morgan Kelly’s term, Anglo Irish was “too connected to fail”—no serious regulatory response was possible.”

  532. So is Habba a “Yorkshire Methodist” or a “good catholic boy (or girl)”, as he tells us, or just another hasbarista khazar shill posting from a free apartment in the WB, and paid via Hillarys annual $400m CIA internet budget. They MUST have a dedicated agent assigned to this influential blog, Jon? He may even be a retired dual loyalty Spurs supporter like Lady Porter, trolling with the trannies on Tel Aviv beach for all we know !

  533. @hasbarista
    “So is Habba a “Yorkshire Methodist” or a “good catholic boy (or girl)”, as he tells us, or just another hasbarista khazar shill posting from a free apartment in the WB, and paid via Hillarys annual $400m CIA internet budget?”

    No hes just a barnacle on the ship of humanity.

  534. alan campbell

    1 Jul, 2013 - 7:41 am

    Israel’s GDP per capita in 2011 was $31,005: Ghana’s was $402. Is it that hard to work out which country’s visitors might decide the economic grass is greener and decide to stay on?

  535. Habba you say.

    “But I must say I’m still doubtful. Disinformation and false claims are perhaps not a monopoly of the evil West or the satanic Israelis; perhaps the wily Arab is also a practicioner of these dark arts.“

    Even your doubts are social constructs.
    Simpliciy and avoidamce aren’t.

  536. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 8:05 am

    “NHS budget for this year is £109 billion.

    ANNUAL cost of wars in Afghanistan etc is nowhere near £20 bn although the total spent since 2002 is closer to £40 bn. “Military Subsidies”; figure a guess, plucked from thin air.”
    _________

    A thank you to Kempe for these figures. It would be interesting also to have the figures for annual UK spending on pensions and on social security as compared to that on defence.

  537. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 8:10 am

    Special delivery.

    Do not even think of parking there. By royal decree.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1109911/kates-royal-baby-parking-ban-outside-hospital

    ~~

    Grandpa-to-be was in the news last week.

    Prince Charles aide to be quizzed by MPs over Duchy of Cornwall tax affairs
    Private secretary to defend tax status of estate from which prince received record personal income of £19m last year
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/28/prince-charles-duchy-of-cornwall-tax-status

    Charles’s £35,000 choo choo drain
    He blows a fortune on Royal Train trip

    htp://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4989122/Charless-35000-choo-choo-drain.html
    Sorry it’s a Sun link.

    Austerity? What austerity?

  538. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 8:14 am

    @ Jay

    “Even your doubts are social constructs.”
    ____________

    Even if that were so, would it matter? It might explain why I have the doubts, but would it invalidate them?

  539. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 8:15 am

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4989122/Charless-35000-choo-choo-drain.html

    There are many links to anti-royal pieces on that page. I thought the Australian ex-pat Murdoch (now a US citizen) liked the royals. Perhaps he’s miffed because he has never been given one of those honorary gongs.

  540. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 8:18 am

    @ Exexpat

    ““So is Habba a “Yorkshire Methodist” or a “good catholic boy (or girl)”, as he tells us, or just another hasbarista khazar shill posting from a free apartment in the WB, and paid via Hillarys annual $400m CIA internet budget?”

    No hes just a barnacle on the ship of humanity”
    _________________

    If so, get scraping :)

    (Advice for those seeking a career in barnacle-scraping : use a hard tool and not a feather duster)

  541. What is a better and more useful concept?

    A greenhouse or The whitehouse;

  542. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 8:32 am

    @ Technicolour :

    “The background truth is that, all around the world, young people ( I think younger than the people on this blog) are rising up in horror, backed by large numbers of everyone else, of whatever age. It doesn’t matter where they live: the issues of environmental pollution, corporate control, totalitarian spying, threats of violence, evidence of murder and torture, are the same.”
    _____________

    That is an eloquent general exposition of what young people might
    be demonstrating (etc) about.

    But to come back to the (sort of) subject : is it unreasonable to think that most of the signers of the petition against President Morsi are somewhat less exercised by these than by economic conditions in Egypt?

  543. Basic state pension costs £80 bn per year with another £12 bn for Winter Fuel Allowance and Pension Credits. Benefits: JSA, Disabilty Allowance, Income Support etc is another £20 bn. Add that to the NHS bill and we have £221 bn spent on welfare of one sort or another.

    That’s a lot of aircraft carriers and enough to replace Trident ten times over.

  544. According to this:
    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/year_spending_2011UKbn_12bc1n_30#ukgs302

    UK defence spending for 2011 was £45.7 Bn.

    According to this:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10359548

    Professor Malcolm Chalmers, a defence analyst for the Royal United Services Institute, said about 30% of the UK’s defence budget* went on operations in Afghanistan.

    and yet -

    In March, former Chancellor Alistair Darling said he had set aside £4bn of the 2010-11 Treasury reserve for military operations in Afghanistan.

    Something doesn’t quite add up. So I guess we can take the usual unsubstantiated assertion by the usual suspect as being gospel truth, rather than asking any questions of our own.

    *Maybe he meant the military defence (sic) budget: £33.0Bn. Of which 30% would be, errr…£9.9Bn.

  545. “I thought the Australian ex-pat Murdoch (now a US citizen) liked the royals. Perhaps he’s miffed because he has never been given one of those honorary gongs.”

    After the phone hacking scandal he must know he’s never going to get one either so any way he can get back at the British establishment he will. A bit sad really.

  546. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 8:48 am

    And now, for the last one of the morning, back to the subject of this thread (sorry about that).

    Alan Campbell’s two posts have great merit and are persuasive. As I pointed out at the near-beginning of this thread (oh! it seems so long ago..), it is likely that the choice of the first six countries to whose nationals the proposed bond scheme will be applied has been based on evidence and/or a careful risk-assessment. There are several fairly obvious push and pull factors to explain this first choice identification of high risk countries wrt over-stayers : the difference in economic conditions, traditional links between those countries and the UK, the ease with which visitors can ‘disappear’ (linked to the absence of identity cards), the existence of large communities of those nationals in the UK, language and so on and so on.

  547. Advocates of “devil take the hindmost” privatised healthcare will find food for thought here.

    “Why More Equal Societies
    Almost Always Do Better.”
    Richard Wilkinson, Ph.D. &
    Kate Pickett, Ph.D.

    Based on thirty years’ research, they demonstrate that more unequal societies are bad for almost everyone within them ‐ the well‐off as well as the poor.

    pdf here: http://scholar.google.com/scholar_url?hl=en&q=http://www.mailman.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/wilkinson-and-pickett-poster.pdf&sa=X&scisig=AAGBfm2sSXjS-nqUULV-eBk4CqmCRvLsow&oi=scholarr
    ……………

    @Villager.

    I checked out Mr Krisnamurti and found, as I had half expected, a wonderful man. More Buddha than Sai Baba.

    “All authority of any kind, especially in the field of thought and understanding, is the most destructive, evil thing. Leaders destroy the followers and followers destroy the leaders. You have to be your own teacher and your own disciple. You have to question everything that man has accepted as valuable, as necessary.”

    Jiddu Krishnamurti

    Maybe in thoughts like these lies the olive branch we need?

  548. Truly thankful for the school masterly care from our perfect couple, spiritually balanced by all that rots within.

    ding ding dong, dindongdongding goes the wind chime.

  549. “Is there a collective noun for trolls?”

    I believe it is a distraction of trolls.

  550. By flicking it’s tongue out of it’s mouth, the Komodo Dragon is able to “taste” scent particles in the air to locate both live and dead prey up to 8km away.

    Hence the insight.

  551. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 10:03 am

    @ Komodo

    I have the feeling you don’t know what the Treasury reserve is. To help you: it is a reserve. To be drawn on if annual estimates for any given expenditure area are or are likely to be exceeded.

  552. For those advocating free medical care for people who can afford to holiday in Europe, what have you to say for those who do not have the wherewithal to make the journey? Where is the compassion and clever soultions to their healthcare plight? Out of sight, out of mind huh?

  553. Kibo:

    ‘Maybe in thoughts like these lies the olive branch we need?’

    Agreed. I was trying to say the same thing earlier. To the effect of ‘be a light unto one’s self’. If we actually each did that we would change the content of human consciousness and find ourselves/humanity/the world in a better place. Its an inward process, while being aware of whats going on outside.

    Atm, we are going through a phase which is more a focus on the outside — seeing the same ‘narrative’ play out, signing petitions enjoining protests etc etc while their there is no real attention to the inside. So conflict continues.

    Good you checked out K. I think he was one of the greatest ‘thinkers’ of the last century, if not to ever have walked the earth. As you say, more like the Buddha than all the fake gurus. In fact he has gone a step further by ensuring there is no ‘ism formed around his teachings so that we can all figure things out for ourselves in Freedom. Which is the only way it works. While we don’t need to reinvent the wheel, given that he figured everything out, we still need to absolutely understand what he says for ourselves and not merely at an intellectual level. Hence our understanding must come from our inner ear, at our deepest level of being and become part of one’s dan so to speak. Then we can call it our own — that is real understanding. And the actions that spring from that are completely different in their effect of changing the world and moving it and our lot in a positive direction.

    Enjoy the journey!

  554. Kibo: dan = dna

  555. Of course it is, troll. What you said. It appears under “other spending”, in 2012 and is in addition to the military budget, I assume, until you provide supported evidence otherwise, rather than merely pontificating. But that wasn’t the point, was it?. Annual spending in Afghanistan is ~£10 Bn, Ten years ago (on the “33%” basis, it was ~£7Bn. It has been over £10 Bn annually since 2007. So the total decade spend is significantly higher than you assert. Without a source, as usual. Just blustering.

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/year_spending_2012UKbn_12bc1n_30#ukgs302

    -and follow the links-

    The fact that HMG needs to set aside 40%-worth of contingency cash IN ADDITION to this indicates that the true cost is probably being concealed elsewhere.

    Memo to self, must be more careful about including supplementary info in quoted material. Hubba only does one concept at a time.

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/year_spending_2012UKbn_12bc1n_30#ukgs302

  556. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 10:59 am

    For information

    ‘I’ve got a little list
    He never will be missed…..

    Lord High Executioner – The Mikado – Sir William Schwenk Gilbert and Sir Arthur Sullivan.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_honorary_British_knights_and_dames

    I believe Bratton whom May and Camerom lined up to run the Met was given a gong. Yes. Just checked. A CBE. Amazing that our Evil EmPyre extends to New York and to all the countries in the first list.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Bratton

  557. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 11:20 am

    Portrait of a vulture.

    New trade minister Ian Livingston’s £20m of BT shares ‘a conflict of interest’
    David Cameron criticised over handling of telecom boss’s appointment

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/new-trade-minister-ian-livingstons-20m-of-bt-sharesa-conflict-of-interest-8680618.html

    Good to be reminded of how ‘privatisation’ would usher in competition a la Thatcher.

    I bet no GPO or Post Office Telephones, as it was, senior executive gathered a fraction of this carrion seeking bird. Disgusting – our nation’s carcase being picked clean to be carried to havens abroad.

    PS You might remember the BT ads with Maureen Lipman and the ‘…ologies’
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEfKEzX9QLE

    and the privatisation ad campaign
    http://www.advertisingarchives.co.uk/?service=asset&action=show_preview&asset=42170

  558. And what of Cameron’s visit to lovable teddy bear Nazarbayev?

    It’s all part of a pattern. Not only has the aforementioned soft toy thing hired Blair – for millions – to advise him on how to tickle the West’s tits, but also :

    It’s not just Blair but some of his closest confidents who are working in Kazakhstan: Alastair Campbell has been spotted by the FT flying back from the capital Astana, Jonathan Powell (appropriately the author of a book on Machiavelli) is also apparently involved. Former BAE systems Chair Sir Richard Evans is now Chairman of the state enterprise Samruk, worth a staggering £50 billion that in turn has hired Lord Mandelson for speeches.

    Cosy, innit?

    Forget the pantomime villains, like deceased murderer Kim Jong-Il, the majority of despots are not household names – for a reason. Well paid lobbyists tempt journalists over to write puff pieces on the burgeoning tourism trade. Or outfits like the European Azerbaijan Society use MPs like Mark Field or Mike Gapes to help promote the country’s interests with little reference to human rights violations. Any association, however tangential with our politicians, is hugely symbolic for authoritarian regimes in helping them legitimise their rule within their countries. That Blair is involved is deeply depressing, and should be of concern.

    Labour is having a tough time rebuilding its foreign policy. Tony Blair’s legacy should be anchoring the party as social democratic and internationalist to the core. Instead, Blair is making the case for his detractors – that his foreign policy was guided by self-interest. As one senior member of Blair’s government told me, “towards the end Tony just got too enthralled by wealth”. Since his deal in Astana, it’s a hard case to argue against.

    Mind you, that Cameron is involved is pretty nauseating too, but it is the Telegraph, after all.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/9102135/Why-is-Tony-Blair-lending-credibility-to-Kazakhstans-dictator.html

  559. Factual error earlier, sorry. I commented that Cameron had visited Kazakhstan last year, but my reference was in fact to a telephone conversation between Cameron and Nazarbayev then. The BBC is at some pains to emphasise that this is the first visit to Kazakhstan by a serving PM. Only just. Blair got in there pdq after relinquishing his role.

  560. An oath should fix everything, so the MPs maintain:

    Policing ‘Hippocratic Oath’ will fix bent coppers, MPs hope

    The Commons’ home affairs committee wants the introduction of a new code of ethics and integrity comparable to the Hippocratic Oath taken by doctors at the start of their career.

    Its report, published today, called for unified policing standards, a register of interests for chief constables and a scale of fines established by the College of Policing in cases of grave misconduct.

    It is evident that at long last, there is the realization that bent coppers are a serious and major challenge, and they ought to be tackled, hence the oath (an expensive enquiry, hours of cops investigating cops, the money spent on their trials, what would public think if they found out about the levels of corruption and its extent) would just do fine, if it is associated with Hippocrates.

    This measure solves two problems: cures the bent coppers and guides them to the righteous path, also undermines the bald, hairy, toga wearing Greek do gooder’s reputation, and thus paves the Way for the Drs and Surgeons to see the light and stop being so hung up on code of ethics and all that nonsense. The health professionals ought to start thinking on the economics of the health business. What is good for corporates is good for the nation.

    Although curios as to when are they going to auction off the Police to some privateer in the name of transparency and economic progress? Just think of it, the shareholders could also be the criminals who are raking in enormous funds through their criminal activities. Although there are those who would point out; banksters have not been showing any interest in buying up the Police, it has been only the Murdoch “editors” who had a preference for a private Police force.

  561. 4,000 ‘bent coppers’

    One officer was caught with sub-machine guns, while others brought shame on their forces with sex crimes, drug trafficking, fraud and domestic violence.

    More than 100 of them held the rank of inspector or higher.

    And criminality in the ranks is a growing problem, data disclosed by 34 of the 43 police forces in England and Wales showed.

    Although the article has lots of tertiary “offences” but also points to more substantive crimes such as; “drug peddling”, “intent to supply arms and munitions” (the farmers ought to have moved on from shotguns, and require machine guns), Perverting course of justice”???, “drink driving”, “theft”.

    Certainly it should be understood; all of these criminal activities would cease once the police recruits start swearing their Hippocratic oath. A clear example of why our esteemed politicians need a ten thousands pounds rise in their salary (the what’sit said so, and not the MPs remember), for their wise guidance and counsel , and making our lives a much more miserable experience.

  562. Who spun them this line?

    The Kazakh foreign minister, Erlan Idrissov, explains:

    “Idrissov said Kazakhstan acknowledged the criticism of its human rights record but insisted that it was on a transition to becoming a “Jeffersonian democracy” which would take some time to complete.

    The foreign minister said: “We do hear criticisms. We do not feel absolutely unhappy about those criticisms. We patiently explain to our partners that we are not today a Jeffersonian democracy and that a Jeffersonian democracy is our ultimate destination.”"

    Either their Western advisors are taking the piss, or land of milk and honey here we come…

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jul/01/david-cameron-business-amnesty-kazakhstan-deal-nazarbayev

  563. @kibo noh

    Why equal societies do better-

    Great let’s have the worlds wealth shared out equally and for the radicals amongst us, how about responsibilities shared out collectively, then persuade with love and light.

    Greenhouse and Whitehouse.

    Both need war, water….

  564. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 12:49 pm

    I read the Guardian in a Costalot this morning. What a rag it is now, a little larger than tabloid, 28 pages and a Glastonbury and Sport supplement. £1.40! The online version is better than the print version and it’s free, so far.

    They carried a report on Caneron’s trip and quote him as saying that of course he will raise the matter of human rights in the discussions but he is there for Britain and business. Of course he is. Three of the companies represented in the mission accompanying him are BP, BG and Shell.

    I see he has had an endorsement.

    Kazakhstan’s autocratic president tells David Cameron: I would vote for you
    Nursultan Nazarbayev, who retained presidency in 2011 with 95.5% of the vote, says British PM deserves to win next election
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/01/kazakhstan-president-david-cameron-vote?INTCMP=SRCH

    Cameron is also calling for extension of the EU into the Soviet Union. Is he trying to wind Putin up on purpose?
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/01/eu-extend-soviet-union-david-cameron

  565. ‘Costalot’ – how appropriate – the aroma of coffee invited me in this morning. I abstained.

    Predictably agent Cameron spun his Kazakhstan delivery around an adulterated and tainted need to have an integrated banking system; “you need to have an integrated fiscal system.” he opined.

  566. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 1:29 pm

    ‘I will do anything for money…’ American popstar

    Jennifer Lopez criticised for Turkmenistan corporate gig
    Lopez performed a selection of her hits during the show on Saturday

    Human rights activists have criticised US pop singer Jennifer Lopez for singing Happy Birthday to the leader of Turkmenistan, who is accused of human rights violations.

    Lopez serenaded Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedov in the former Soviet Union country on Saturday night.

    She was performing at an event hosted by the China National Petroleum Corp.

    Lopez’s publicist said she would not have performed had she known there were human rights issues in the country.

    Wake up Ms Lopez and/or publicist.

    Was Lopez the one who mimed at the Obama inauguration? Can’t remember.

  567. Dreolin: “Germany prepares to charge UK and US intelligence over fresh bugging allegations”

    Thanks for that Dreolin. The leaks continue with the latest revelation being that dozens of embassies, including France and Italy in Wash DC were bugged as i undersatnd it.

    Here’s a worrying article on Snowden:

    ” ECUADOR PRESIDENT: SNOWDEN CAN’T LEAVE MOSCOW ”
    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ecuador-president-snowden-cant-leave-moscow

    If i remember correctly, didn’t Russia offer him asylum publicly like when Snowden first spoke out? Can’t be sure. But i’m sure he would rather be elsewhere. Maybe the whole thing is deliberately being made contentious to confuse America? Or is it just bureaucracies at play? It all seemed quite well choreographed by Ecuador initially and then, what?
    —-
    PS What happened to your blue avatar — quite liked it — was easy to spot you!

  568. Strivers v skivers – Karimov endorses IDS?

    http://www.rferl.org/content/uzbekistan-karimov-beggars-migrants-remittances/25028531.html

    Disturbing similarity of approach, there.

  569. Villager,

    “Der Spiegel said the NSA’s German phone and internet surveillance operation was the biggest in the EU. On 7 January 2013 it tapped into some 60 million German phone calls in a single day. The magazine said that Canada, Australia, Britain and New Zealand were exempt from NSA surveillance but Germany was regarded as a country open for “spy attacks”.”

    The Germans are furious.

    “If i remember correctly, didn’t Russia offer him asylum publicly like when Snowden first spoke out?”

    I thought so.

    “It all seemed quite well choreographed by Ecuador initially and then, what?”

    No. Some are saying that Julian Assange messed things up. I don’t know if there’s any truth in that.

    “Correa said he had no idea Snowden’s intended destination was Ecuador when he fled Hong Kong for Russia last week. He said the Ecuadorean consul in London committed “a serious error” by not consulting officials in Ecuador’s capital when the consul issued a letter of safe passage for Snowden. He said the consul would be punished, although he didn’t specify how.”

    I got rid of the blue avatar. It made me stand out like a sore thumb ;)

  570. Posted this on previous thread by mistake:

    Correa’s been leaned on by the US. And fallen flat.

    http://www.newsmax.com/newswidget/assange-snowden-hero-nsa/2013/06/30/id/512659?promo_code=EE9E-1&utm_source=jpost&utm_medium=nmwidget&utm_campaign=widgetphase1

    Kill the screensaver popup – prob. malware.

    I’d guess that the breaking of the story on US spying on the EU has sent the US into panic mode. “What if he’s got hold of (even more damning revelation) too?”

    I’d like to think he has. If only as insurance.

  571. I see that the thread’s emphasis seems to have moved from a debate about how to have an policy on illegal immigration without human rights violations, as to whetever overseas visitors who may need medical attention, should be refused unless the costs can be recoverable from the £3000 bond; a rather spurious & nonsensical justification of the bond proposal, which immediately falls down on consideration that it’s not just visitors from these six targeted “High Risk” countries that could require medical attention, so logically on this criteria the bond scheme would have to be applied to most of the World’s countries; also, what if the medical attention costs more than the £3000 bond, which is already unaffordable to most people ? Rather a harebrained & shallow attempted diversionary line of justification, imho.

    I see that the habby-clown is still clowning around, keeping poor Jon busy in having to zap his comments on a regular basis now, so I will continue to refer to him as the trolling clown, no doubt much to the dismay of his new loyal & hyper-protective acolytes, and did I notice that there is a rumour of Summer wedding bells in that regard ?! Despite our difference, we should all wish the happy couple the best !

    Anyhow despite several exchange of posts, in which Hubbu-Clown has admitted that the proposed bond scheme is ‘discriminatory’ & “unjust and undignified” , yet here he is still trying to defend it ! Also it would have been noted, except by the acolytes, that he not respond to the points either about the “Baiai Case”, or 2010 Labour’s Equality Act, both of which highlight the illegality of blanket group discrimination.

    I still believe that is proposal will not get off the ground, and I’ve seen various reports that it has been scrapped;

    http://news.peacefmonline.com/news/201306/167358.php

    (More later as I’m still a bit Bruce-lagged !)

  572. Fact or Fiction?

    “June 28, 2013 “Information Clearing House – “The Guardian” — The plan to spirit the surveillance whistleblower Edward Snowden to sanctuary in Latin America appeared to be unravelling on Friday, amid tension between Ecuador’s government and Julian Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks.

    “President Rafael Correa halted an effort to help Snowden leave Russia amid concern Assange was usurping the role of the Ecuadoran government, according to leaked diplomatic correspondence published on Friday.

    Amid signs Quito was cooling with Snowden and irritated with Assange, Correa declared invalid a temporary travel document which could have helped extract Snowden from his reported location in Moscow.”

    More at the link
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article35433.htm

  573. Don’t think so, Macky. The piece you cite contains this:

    Foreign Office Minister Keith Vaz confirmed on Saturday that the programme had been dropped for good.

    And I think it refers to the year 2000 when Vaz was indeed FCO Minister, and did indeed kill a bond scheme, on the excellent grounds reiterated by several posters above.

    A case of overoptimism when Googling, I’m afraid – several sites seem to have resurrected this report. Sorry.

  574. Dreolin: “Germany prepares to charge UK and US intelligence over fresh bugging allegations”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-prepares-to-charge-uk-and-us-intelligence-over-fresh-bugging-allegations-8680249.html

    One of the commenters under that article writes:

    “The real terrorists in the modern world caught out. I wonder if Billy Hague will tell Merkel to shut up if Germans have nothing to hide!”

  575. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 2:51 pm

    Kerry, having failed miserably with Israel and getting Netanhayu to stop the settlement building, plays down the EU bugging.

    Spy Row: EU Checks Its Premises For US Bugs
    The EU begins a full security sweep as leaders call on the US to immediately cease any surveillance of European institutions

    ‘America’s top diplomat told a news conference early on Monday that nearly all national governments, not just the United States, use “lots of activities” to safeguard their interests and security..

    Mr Kerry confirmed that EU High Representative Catherine Ashton raised the issue with him but he gave no further details of their exchange. He said he had yet to see details of the newspaper allegations.

    “I will say that every country in the world that is engaged in international affairs and national security undertakes lots of activities to protect its national security and all kinds of information contributes to that. All I know is that is not unusual for lots of nations,” he said.’

    http://news.sky.com/story/1110130/spy-row-eu-checks-its-premises-for-us-bugs

  576. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 2:58 pm

    The real traitors in the US are the banks and the bankers. None of them are being hunted down and prosecuted.

    July 01, 2013

    Full-Court Press on Snowden is a Bad Joke
    The Real Traitors to America are in Washington and New York

    by DAVE LINDORFF

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/01/the-real-traitors-to-america-are-in-washington-and-new-york/

    Meanwhile, the real traitors who have done so much to destroy America are buying politicians of both parties, using their undue influence to gut any effort at real regulation, all the while earning fat bonuses in their corner offices at megabanks like Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Citi Group, Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase and Wells Fargo. No need to extradite those guys in order to prosecute ‘em. They’re right here in the USA. All that’s lacking is a will to bring charges for things like mortgage fraud, derivative fraud, collusion, lying under oath, etc. But Obama’s attorney general, Eric Holder, a former corporate lawyer himself, has already declared that he will not prosecute Wall Street’s banks for their frauds in bringing down the US economy.

  577. “The real terrorists in the modern world caught out. I wonder if Billy Hague will tell Merkel to shut up if Germans have nothing to hide!”

    Kerry (or Heinz Kerry) has gone on record that everybody spies, and spying is good for you!

    This seems to be the directive for the trolls who are filling up the threads with “everybody spies” and “nowt wrong with that” stories. However the EU is diplomatically/politely threatening to stop trade deals. whilst German opposition is asking for Snowden to be given asylum in EU..

    In other passing news; the unrelenting hate campaign against Muslims in UK is bearing fruits; “Kill the Muslims, Pakis”.

  578. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 3:05 pm

    Some of those banks are quoted here.

    1 July 2013
    EU says banks blocked competition in derivatives market
    Deutsche Borse EU says Deutsche Borse was blocked from the credit derivatives business

    The world’s biggest investment banks colluded to stop competition in a profitable derivatives business according to EU authorities.

    Between 2006 and 2009 Deutsche Borse and the Chicago Mercantile Exchange tried to enter the credit derivatives business, but were denied licences to offer trading in the products.

    EU competition officials say that big banks were behind that refusal
    [..]
    In its preliminary conclusion the European Commission named 13 of the world’s biggest investment banks including, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Deutsche Bank and Barclays.
    [..]

    /..
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23128361#

    ~~

    Ex Goldman Sachs new BoE Chairman Mark Carney took the tube to work today. Big deal. A man of the people obviously.

  579. Dreoilin, 2.12pm

    I suspect that’s far from the full story. There’s been an orchestrated smear campaign to undermine Ecuador’s involvement in Snowden’s asylum bid, starting with articles purporting to be based on leaks to Univision about an “NSA-style surveillance system” of Ecuador’s own:

    Exposing the dark forces behind Snowden smears:
    http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/exposing-dark-forces-behind-snowden-smears?paging=off

    and, apparently, the NSA directly theiving from the Ecuadorian Foreign Minister’s email about their internal discussion of Assange’s attempts from within the London embassy to spirit Snowden out of Hong Kong in the nick of time:

    https://twitter.com/RicardoPatinoEC/status/351417796468555777

    (translation in the reply directly underneath Ricardo Patino’s tweet)

    For Ecuador’s true position on both Snowden and the efforts of their own consul and Julian Assange, here are some comments of Correa’s which have not reached the mainstream smear-meisters’ reports:

    Ecuador’s President Correa says Snowden’s fate in hands of Russia:
    http://www.independent.ie/world-news/americas/ecuadors-president-correa-says-snowdens-fate-in-hands-of-russia-29383990.html

    and

    NSA leaker Snowden can’t leave Moscow: Ecuador president:
    http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/nsa-leaker-snowden-can-t-leave-moscow-ecuador-president-1.1347699

    Although the latter article appears to be based on leaks by some of those notoriously dubious sources, “anonymous government officials” (Ecuadorian ones, mind), I think I concur with what Jemand says elsewhere: there’s a lot of shadow-play going on here by both Ecuador and Russia. However, it seems fairly clear that Assange has not messed up or to have fallen out of favour with his hosts. Snowden’s swift transference to Ecuador seems to have got nixed by the US State Dept revoking his passport, and Russia preventing his transference by diplomatic car to Ecuador’s Moscow embassy.

  580. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/07/01/germany-eu-nsa-snowden/2478625/

    Germany summons US ambassador. And

    On Sunday, British newspaper The Independent reported that Germany’s Federal Prosecutor’s office “was preparing to bring charges against British and U.S. intelligence…

    Here’s another fine mess US’s got us into…

  581. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 3:24 pm

    Yes, it’s probably due to some competitiveness between lesser and greater power pacts within Ecuador. It was feared Assange was pulling Ecuador’s strings, or would be perceived as such.

    Typical infighting to secure the best possible path for the ambitious.

  582. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 3:30 pm

    Komodo seems to have blown a fuse with his post at 10h37. This is usually a sign that he has run out of arguments, but that’s by the by.

    Firstly, we are talking about annual expenditure, not expenditure over a decade. Here, Kempe was good enough to provide us with some figures for annual expenditure, namely : 221 billion pounds for social security, pensions and the NHS.

    The point being that (1) this dwarfs annual expenditure on defence (in the wide sense), and (2) this calls into question the sometimes heard argument that any financing gap in social and health spending can be plugged by switching expenditure away from defence.

    Finally, I’m still wondering whether Komodo has understood what the Treasury reserve is, what it’s there for and how it functions. But that’s by the by as well.

  583. You’re right Komodo. It occurs to me that the USA hates everyone (including the poor of the USA). Everything it does at governmental level is motivated by hate and greed.

    https://www.facebook.com/TheUsaHatesYouAndMe?fref=ts

  584. Bond scheme, cont’d

    It does look as if a reverse ferret is in progress, all the same. People who decline to be named allege…

    http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/world/uk-visa-bond-scheme-goes-back-to-drawing-board/article4857704.ece

    Under the original scheme, floated by Mr. Cameron’s fellow Tory Home Secretary Theresa May to cut down immigration levels, India was to be included in a list of “high-risk” countries requiring their nationals to deposit a £3,000 cash bond for a British visa. The other countries were Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nigeria and Ghana — all non-white Commonwealth nations.

    But the strong reaction in India plus the opposition from British businesses, London Mayor Boris Johnson and his coalition partners, the Liberal Democrats, has forced Mr. Cameron to intervene.

    Senior Lib Dem members were reported as saying that Mr. Clegg declined to “sign off” details of the policy.

    “The policy has not yet been signed off. We are in favour of the principle but exact details of how it is to be piloted, including the size of the bond, is still being discussed in the government,” The Guardian quoted a Lib Dem source as saying.

    While a “pilot” might go ahead in November as planned, the final scheme is expected to be narrower in size and scope. It would be “highly selective,” targeting only “suspicious” applicants. A Home Office official said even the names of “high-risk” countries to be covered by the scheme had not yet been finalised.

    Original report is in the FT, apparently (paywall)

  585. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 3:40 pm

  586. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 3:42 pm

    Muslim Brotherhood hdqtrs stormed…

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23125387

  587. Hubba -

    You posted this:

    “NHS budget for this year is £109 billion.

    ANNUAL cost of wars in Afghanistan etc is nowhere near £20 bn although the total spent since 2002 is closer to £40 bn. “Military Subsidies”; figure a guess, plucked from thin air.”
    _________

    A thank you to Kempe for these figures. It would be interesting also to have the figures for annual UK spending on pensions and on social security as compared to that on defence.

    YOU are talking about annual expenditure, details of which are on the link I kindly supplied. I am talking about expenditure, period. You do not determine the parameters of this or any debate. And you appear to accept Kempe’s figure uncritically enough to pass it on as incontestable fact. Which it isn’t. See above for why.

    Re. arguments, as you seem to be under some compulsion to have an argument on trivial points with most of the commentators here, I defer to your extensive collection. But it would be helpful if you could back your pronouncements with evidence which might support them, however tenuously. I offer this suggestion in the kindest possible spirit as you have been here five minutes, are shouting the odds like John McCririck, and are composed entirely of pixels.

  588. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 4:01 pm

    Now the Egyptian army gives the protesters 48 hours…. Or else what?

    BREAKING NEWS:The Egyptian army has given parties 48 hours to resolve political crisis, or it will ‘take responsibility’

  589. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 4:08 pm

    Petition Theresa May for an inquiry into allegations of police smearing of Stephen Lawrence’s family.

    http://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/justice-for-the-lawrence-family

  590. Thanks Arbed – 3:14 pm

    Just about to catch up on that reading now.

  591. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 4:39 pm

    Arbed;

    Do you know anything about the Guardian’s deleted story?

    http://www.businessinsider.com/the-guardian-wayne-madsen-nsa-scoop-2013-6

  592. @ Passerby

    Just for the confusion:

    How do you like these apples.

    Ease up on the hate mate!

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lWsuVuw5JO4

  593. Ben Franklin, 3.24pm

    Yes, it’s probably due to some competitiveness between lesser and greater power pacts within Ecuador. It was feared Assange was pulling Ecuador’s strings, or would be perceived as such.

    Typical infighting to secure the best possible path for the ambitious.

    Not sure it does represent infighting on this occasion. Of course, we only have partial quotes, due to the agenda of the media outlets (Univision/Wall Street Journal) making them public. Given that the most damaging quote – “from the outside [...] it looks like Assange is running the show” (owtte) – is from the Ecuadorian Ambassador to the US, it is possible to read it simply as input from the appropriate diplomat on the public relations aspect from her perspective?

    Oh-oh, news flash:

    Putin: Snowden can stay in Russia if he stops damaging USA
    http://rt.com/news/putin-snowden-asylum-extradite-489/

    Anyone care to translate what the hell that means?

  594. Ben at 4.39pm

    I think the Guardian/Observer pulling that story is sheer embarrassment because Wayne Madsen is known for his very conspiratorial views, and hence not really a very credible source.

  595. Follow on from my comment at 4.43pm:

    What I’m referring to is the not-so-subtle hints about spy swaps in that article. Or perhaps it’s just a feint, because Putin must know that Snowden had already securely distributed all he’s got to journalistic organisations prior to travel from Hong Kong. I’m not sure it’s really up to Snowden any more how much damage will be done to the US. Sunshine is coming, like it or no :)

  596. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 4:52 pm

    Arbed; That was a strange things for Putin to say. I don’t know what to make of it because he’s never revealed anything but antipathy for the US. However his comments on human rights made me remember a comment by someone called ‘Cog’ a couple pages back.

    “Thanks for Big Brother’s take in the LAT, BF, very instructive. Domestic US propaganda consistently tries to twist Snowden’s case into a bilateral foreign policy issue. The US government needs foreign devils and enemies within. But Snowden’s case has started the wheels of an international process that the US is desperate to derail.

    Russia has consistently maintained that action wrt Snowden should be under the purview of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees. This opens the door for Snowden to get laissez-passer under the 1951 refugee convention, and Snowden’s got a good case as a person in fear of persecution and torture for his opinions. Non-refoulement protects Snowden from being returned to a state known to torture rights defenders, e.g Bradley Manning. Espionage charges are classic persecution tactics used by police states fighting for impunity.

    As a rights defender (acting to promote freedom-of-information and privacy rights of the ICCPR and UDHR,) Snowden is in the remit of the special rapporteur on rights defenders, and subject to corresponding protective initiatives of the EU, the OAS, and international NGOs, incl.:

    http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/SRHRDefenders/Pages/CommentarytotheDeclarationonHumanRightsDefenders.aspx

    http://www.ohchr.org/en/Issues/SRHRDefenders/Pages/SRHRDefendersIndex.aspx

    http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Defenders/CommentarytoDeclarationondefendersJuly2011.pdf

    The established principle is, a state cannot prosecute a person for defending human rights. Viewing Snowden as a rights defender short-circuits all the HERO! TRAITOR! HERO!! TRAITOR!! nonsense. The point is not Snowden’s virtues or US interests, but the importance of defending the human rights of privacy and freedom of information”

    Why has no one thought of involving the UN?

  597. “Anyone care to translate what the hell that means?”

    Yikes …
    Obama/Putin deal: Snowden can stay in Russia and USA will stop chasing him, on condition that he releases no more info?

  598. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 4:55 pm

    Spy swaps..why didn’t I think of that. Snowden is screwed because Obama said he’s DEFINITELY not going to play that game.

  599. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 5:01 pm

    I watched a Westminster Hall debate on TV the other day. Tony Baldry was asking for the lifting of some of EU directive regulations on bat conservation due to the damage they cause to church buildings and fabric with their droppings and urine. He is a second estates church commissioner.
    ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Commissioners. )

    I am very fond of the little creatures and actually have some pipistrelles who live under the tile hanging at the front of my house. At dusk they come out and whizz round. Fascinating.

    He went on and on reading from about six sheets of A4. When a young female MP intervened mentioning the Bat Conservation Trust, he became quite angry and shouted her down. She smiled as he resumed. The Hansard version here.
    http://www.theyworkforyou.com/whall/?id=2013-06-25a.27.0&s=speaker%3A10023#g27.1

    I looked at his register. He receives £40,000 pa from Woburn Energy in oil exploration. He has links to a paper recycling company in Kazakhstan, is a barrister receiving fees of £88,000, has a shareholding in a Sierra Leone gold and diamond mining company, etc etc
    http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/tony_baldry/banbury#register

    The list is endless right back to 1999. – Donation in kind for a research assistant from a lighting industry association, a paid trip to India, a directorship of a company with interests in Iraq……
    http://www.theyworkforyou.com/regmem/?p=10023

    Doing well Tony. Hope the bats do too.

  600. “YOU are talking about annual expenditure, details of which are on the link I kindly supplied. I am talking about expenditure, period. ”

    The two are becoming confused and compared one with another which I think you’ll agree is meaningless.

  601. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 5:34 pm

    Quite a large number of affiliates (secular) in the oppos. Hating Mursi seems to be their agreement, in principle.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Salvation_Front_(Egypt)

  602. It appears (Komodo’s link @3.34 today) that the ‘bond scheme’ which precipitated Craig’s post was all hot air; just a headline grabbing ‘announcement’ presumably made to grab some votes back from UKIP.

    So, much of the comments thread is all a bit of a kabuki show.

  603. strange things for Putin to say. I don’t know what to make of it because he’s never revealed anything but antipathy for the US.

    You are not reading the Russians correctly. A more closer translation can be found in the Reuters headline (Harming ‘our American partners’)

    Putin repeated that Russia had no intention of handing the American over to the United States, which wants him on espionage charges.

    …..Russian intelligence agencies were not working with Snowden … “If he wants to go away somewhere and someone will accept him there, by all means,” Putin said.

    Putin is pissed off with Snowden holding court and letting the kittens out of bag, so to speak of. Further, Putin is at pains to disassociate his SIS from Snowden’s press conferances. This can be read in one of two ways;

    A – Snowden’s data is less valuable if it is in public domain for the Russians to benefit from.

    B – Snowden’s credibility quotient is enhanced and the US efforts in pinning the Russian agent stories are head off at the pass.

    There are other alternative interpretations, that could also could prove to be valid.

  604. Hello Dreoilin – Russia may well grant Edward Snowden political asylum. Kabanov, a member of the Presidential Council on Human Rights, a Kremlin advisory body, said he believes that Russia is on the list of 15 countries Edward has appealed to for protection. Some lateral thinking is required in this direction.

    I am aware Snowden provided beneficial, pragmatic information on the German wiretap.

    I remember the six officers who manned the KGB office in the East German district of Dresden, just 100 meters away from the local headquarters of the Stasi, the former East German secret police.

    America and Britain, both fervent and concentrating on the activities of East German agents ‘emigrated’ to West Germany and tasked with gathering intelligence, nuclear, NATO or otherwise.

    I hope the astute here get this; Germany has now kicked back of course.

  605. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 6:09 pm

    “Some Russians say Putin should grant Snowden asylum, but his remarks suggested the former Soviet KGB officer has little sympathy with the actions of the 30-year-old American who leaked details of secret U.S. government surveillance programmes.”

    Maybe some embarrassing disclosures reach Putin’s level. I never suspected for a minute someone who made a lifetime career of surveillance, would champion a leaker.

  606. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 6:11 pm

    Mark; Do you have an opinion on why the UN has not been involved? Their Human Rights Charter(above) surely has some relevance.

  607. people who can afford to holiday in Europe, what have you to say for those who do not have the wherewithal to make the journey?

    Although patently here is an attempt to make the whole of the discussion look silly (tree hugging, meths drinking! hippies and their sentimental claptrap don’t work). However, referring to the link kindly provided by Komodo, there is a budget of foreign military aid for the amount of three thousands and 200 million pounds which can be earmarked for Medical aid (just think how many people would suffer less with that amount of medicine and medical care).

    Funny how Cuba with its little economy can restore the sight of two plain loads of poor people every week landing in Havana airport and taken to Havana hospitals. Or export Surgeons, Doctors, Nurses, and medicine to poorer nations, whilst our political leadership is the first to export weapons into the hands of “rebels” in the countries that they don’t like which are mostly in the category of; could be rich countries, but have to be kept poor, because the sponsors of the politicians are coveting their ass, and oil, and shit.

  608. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 6:22 pm

    Snowden ‘seeks asylum in Russia’

    According to the BBC Breaking news

  609. BrianFujisan

    1 Jul, 2013 - 6:45 pm

    well said Mr Assange

    And Bravo Ecuador too

    The U.S. government also revoked Snowden’s passport, which Assange called a “disgraceful” action.”By cancelling his passport, [the U.S.] has left [Snowden] for the moment marooned in Russia,” he said. “I think that every citizen has the right to their citizenship, to take someone’s principle form of citizenship their passport, is a disgrace.” “He is a hero,” Assange said of Snowden. “He has told the people of the world and the United States that there is mass unlawful interception of their communications.”

    http://therealnews.com/t2/component/hwdvideoshare/viewvideo/76526

  610. “Don’t think so, Macky”

    Thanks Komodo, both for spotting that (still in w/e recovery mode!) & for the upto date link; as I was predicting, this daft proposal will never see the light of day, much to the disappointment of some here.

  611. Syrians have captured a Turkish intelligence officer, who was assigned to Syrian Free Brigade and has been busy bombing, rocketing and plundering his way through Halab in Syria. His exploits have included: dismantling of factory and plants in Halab and smuggling these to Turkey, as well as providing intelligence and advice (ie how to blow up, etc) for the Syrian Free Brigade. This chap is identified as Haia’ny a Turkish Intelligence Officer and after his capture and interrogation, there seems to be plenty of dirt that is to be washed in the Public in the coming days.

    It is getting more and more difficult for the Yanks to keep the lid on their dirty ops and seems glasnost is getting rammed up their butts, which evidently they don’t like it up them!

  612. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 7:19 pm

    I fear that the sharp popping noise some of the more aware commenters may have heard around 16h00 today was Komodo blowing another fuse. He must be careful, as his house might soon be without power. His arguments of course already are.

    And now to the substance of his pop. Leaving aside his bluster and invective, I merely point to two of his comments:

    1/.”YOU are talking about annual expenditure,..”

    Yes, indeed. As is everyone else, I believe. When people write “annual expenditure”, one must assume that they are talking about annual expenditure.

    But not Komodo, it would appear: HE is now, suddenly*, “talking about expenditure, period” – whatever that may mean. I do hope Komodo is not building up to a comparison of one year’s worth of social expenditure with several years’ worth of spending on defence, for that would be….how can I say this kindly?…silly.
    ______

    2/.”Re. arguments, as you seem to be under some compulsion to have an argument on trivial points..”

    If facts and figures are trivial, then I plead guilty as charged :)
    _______

    * curiously enough, Komodo also refers to annual figures in his earlier post at 10h37…
    _______

    Conclusion : commenters should draw on their strengths and not weaknesses. I therefore suggest that Komodo, who is strong on speculation but weak on facts, should henceforth focus on the fascinating discussion on what Ecuador, Russia and the US might – or might not- be doing wrt Edward Snowden. Lots of material there for him to dispaly his unequalled talents :)

  613. Snowden applied for asylum at the consular office at Moscow’s Sheremtyevo airport at 10.30pm on Sunday through his Wikileaks handler, Sarah Harrison, a consular official said.

    Snowden applies for political asylum in Russia

  614. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 7:36 pm

    To return to the question of the £3000 bond/over-stayers.

    It may well be the case that the govt is reviewing its proposal, or at least thinking of not applying it to visitors from India.

    If the latter is true, then surely this would be yet another example of the govt shamefully abandoning what is right and giving in to commercial pressures.

    As such alleged behaviour by the govt in other areas has been roundly condemned by various Eminences on this blog in the past, I trust that the said Eminences will join me in urging the govt to stand fast.

    Ho hum…

  615. “Iran, Russia to Hold Joint Navy Drills in Caspian Sea”

    http://en.ria.ru/world/20130628/181934918/Iran-Russia-to-Hold-Joint-Navy-Drills-in-Caspian-Sea.html

    “Washington Is Driving The World To The Final War — Paul Craig Roberts”

    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013/06/28/washington-is-driving-the-world-to-the-final-war-paul-craig-roberts/

  616. “Earlier this month, the WikiLeaks founder, who had a television show on the Kremlin’s English-language propaganda channel Russia Today, said he had advised Snowden to seek asylum there.

    Fuck off Rusbridger, reporting truth conveys care and duty, not omission, opinion and conjecture for gain; that albatross may exist at grass-roots journalism but dissipates at managers level, falling foul of their own personal bias and onward, succumbing to commercial or political pressure at the editor-in-chief’s desk.

    RT rules OK!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/01/putin-snowden-remain-russia-offer

  617. Ben Franklin, it’s right. No country on the planet needs more education in human rights than the USA. From my point of view they could send educators from Ecuador to demonstrate to the US senate and house of representatives what they should be teaching in schools, instead of teaching them to wrap themselves in the stars and stripes, to sing “God Bless America” and the “Star Spangled banner” and the President, to quote Animal Farm, is always right.

  618. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 8:20 pm

    But John $32 million dollars is like ten pennies for each of us. We could make fortune cookies with the Bill of Rights inside.

    Seriously, I thought the spin on the facts was a symbolic triumph.

  619. Sorry Ben Franklin I was reading a comment of yours on the previous page about Ecaudor offering 21 billion dollars annually to educate the US in human rights.

  620. Sorry again BF it was 23 million dollars and Ecuador rather than Ecaudor.

  621. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 8:25 pm

    Oh, yeah. My post and I forgot the dollar amount. So each of us get 6 pennies.

  622. … wrap themselves in the stars and stripes, to sing “God Bless America” and the “Star Spangled banner” and the President, to quote Animal Farm, is always right.

    You wish to undo the result of the billions spent to miseducate the current population of inanely stupid, emotionally retarded simpletons, and morons, whom believe their country is doing “good”, through bombing the world into “democracy”?

    This fascist state has been in the making since 1850, and now it has reached its twilight years, and it’s imminent disintegration is so evident.

    ==========

    Fuck off Rusbridger, reporting truth conveys care and duty, not omission, opinion and conjecture for gain

    Ditto, that man, Rusbridger is the presstitute in chief, he would not know the truth, if it were to ware a grass skirt and do the Hula dance on the bridge of his nose.

    ======

    make fortune cookies with the Bill of Rights inside

    You are taking for granted that they can read the “bill of rights”. However what good do you think would that do?

  623. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 8:43 pm

    It’s a joke, Fedup.

  624. Macky,

    “(More later as I’m still a bit Bruce-lagged !)”

    You don’t fool us for a second with tales of Paris and Bruce etc..

    Come on man,it’s OK to admit it…you were really at Glastonbury watching Bruce Forsyth…

    :.)

  625. The devil is in the detail.

    “a couple of years at most.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-23131123

    I don’t think Trident is going anywhere if Scotland goes independent.

    So what is the count so far…

    Keep the Sovereign as Head of State.
    Stay in NATO.
    Looking good that Trident stays in Scotland.
    Keeping the same currency as the rest of the UK.

    What’s the point in Scottish independence ?.

  626. It’s a joke, Fedup.

    Oh! Now I get it! ROFLMAO

  627. Putin is taking pains to preserve Snowden’s refugee status by undercutting US espionage charges. In the same breath that he admonished good behavior Putin, without taking a personal position, characterized Snowden’s actions in terms of human rights activism, promoting Snowden’s case as a human rights defender.

    Even before Snowden applied for asylum, Russia was already providing the sort of administrative assistance stipulated in Chapter V, Article 25 of the 1951 convention, by publicly referring Snowden to the UNHCR, and by meeting multilaterally with prospective transit countries or destinations. Putin knows what he’s doing.

    Putin’s prissy adherence to international law is putting Snowden out of reach of the US. The USG is dimly aware that it has been outmaneuvered. That’s why Obama had to publicly disclaim any threat of force.

  628. “UN Special Rapporteur Anand Grover on Fukushima: A Stunning Report Brushed Aside by the Japanese Government”

    http://japanfocus.org/events/view/184

  629. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 9:30 pm

    BBC Patten to resign. Only joking. He should resign. Have you heard that £25m has gone to 150 ex employees over three years?

    http://news.sky.com/story/1110234/bbc-boss-received-800000-in-final-year

    Entwistle £800k
    Thomson £860k

    Absolute outrage.

  630. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 9:33 pm

    ‘undercutting US Espionage charges…”

    Cogg; Espionage is a mitigating factor in determining Snowdens status wrt UN charter?

    Why is no one else on this interesting segue?

  631. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 9:34 pm

    Edward Snowden and Bradley Manning are included in the list of twelve true American patriots nominated here.

    Twelve True Patriots for July 4
    by Bill Quigley / July 1st, 2013

    On July 4, 1776, over fifty people signed the Declaration of Independence. They were openly resisting the legal authority of the King of England. Thousands joined them. They were outlaws. They were breaking the laws of England and risked capture, prison and even death for their belief in independence, equality, unalienable rights, and liberty. They were far from perfect as slavery, the slaughter and removal of Native Americans and the exclusion of women demonstrated. But they did resist their globally powerful government.

    Who are the true patriots of today? Not the flag-wrapped politicians who send other people’s children off to be killed or disabled in wars to make the world safe for big businesses. Not the flag-waving profiteers who view their successes as their due. Not the crowds who chant USA, USA, USA, upon learning of death of Osama bin Laden. Not the religious hypocrites who worship this nation and its flag as yet another one of their gods.

    /..
    http://dissidentvoice.org/2013/07/twelve-true-patriots-for-july-4/

  632. On December 10, 1948 the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights the full text of which appears in the following pages. Following this historic act the Assembly called upon all Member countries to publicize the text of the Declaration and “to cause it to be disseminated, displayed, read and expounded principally in schools and other educational institutions, without distinction based on the political status of countries or territories

    Universal Declaration of Human Rights

    I should cocoa too, Human Rights is yet another weapons system that is used by the Western actors in general against their targeted victims in the third world. As in case of any weapons system it is tucked away safe from the reach of the plebeians whom in case of having access to it and mastering it, could render these susceptible to ideas beyond their station.

  633. Just to let everyone know that this Thursday (the glorious 4th July) is Independence from America Day. In the light of the Edward Snowden revelations it is even more important that people make their presence felt outside Menwith Hill this year. Bob Cryer M. P. was whistle-blowing about this US interception station more than twenty years ago (and still whistle-blowing 17 days before his untimely death in a car “accident” in April of 1994). It is fitting that Bob Cryer’s accusations have been verified by Edward Snowden (and others). The thrust of Bob’s argument was “Why do we (the UK) have a US telecommunications’ tapping station in the middle of one of our National Parks without parliamentary consent?” Not only was it a valid argument then, it is a valid argument now. I do not recall any M.P. asking this question since, at least not enough to make the press. World, this is your wake-up call. America hates you! Make your voices heard.

    http://www.caab.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/july4th-20132.jpg

  634. Flaming June

    1 Jul, 2013 - 9:47 pm

    Doubtless US bullying is behind this.

    Several Iranian TV channels removed from western satellites
    1 July 2013, 10:28 (GMT+05:00)

    Some Western satellite companies have taken a number of Iranian channels off the air, Press TV reported.

    The satellite companies Hotbird 13-B, Eutelsat 25-C, Eutelsat 21-B, Eutelsat 8-West-A, Intelsat 20, Galaxy 19, and Optus D-2 pulled the plug on the Islamic Republic of Iran’s English news channel Press TV on Monday.

    Iran’s Spanish-language channel Hispan TV was removed from satellites Eutelsat 8-West-A, Eutelsat 7-West-A, and Intelsat 21. Eutelsat 8-West-A also removed Arabic news channel al-Alam.

    Iran’s general entertainment television network iFilm — which broadcasts in both English and Arabic –was also taken off the air by Eutelsat 21-B, Eutelsat 25-C, Hotbird 13-B, Eutelsat 7-West-A, Intelsat 20, and Optus D-2.

    Broadcasting of another Iranian channel, called al-Kawthar, was stopped by Eutelsat 8-West-A, Eutelsat 7-West-A, and Galaxy 19.

    Earlier, the International Telecommunications Satellite Organization (ITSO) called on the United States and Intelsat to suspend their decision on taking Iranian channels off the air.

    ITSO director general José Manuel Do Rosario Toscano asked both Intelsat and the US to hold talks with Iran on the issue.

    http://www.azernews.az/region/56088.html

  635. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 9:51 pm

    Mr Snowden’s reported request for political asylum in Russia – if true – would appear to indicate that the option of asylum in Ecuador is no longer on the table and that President Correa’s fine, defiant words of only a day or two ago were just that.

    The following conclusions, given in decreasing order of importance, would seem to be in order :

    1/. If I were Julian Assange, I would be a worried man

    2/. If I were a defender of human rights defenders I would welcome President Putin into my ranks

    3/ If I had been one of the Eminences who had elevated President Correa to hero status on this blog, I would now be looking around hastily for a new hero.

  636. @Fedup 6 14pm

    “Funny how Cuba with its little economy can………export Surgeons, Doctors, Nurses, and medicine to poorer nations, whilst our political leadership is the first to export weapons…”

    Just listen to how Cuban humanitarian interventions have leaked into contemporary african music.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldLO4LwNLHY

    Now that’s what I call a contribution!

    @Ben. If you’re around. Happy Hour’s early tonight.

  637. Serious nonpolitical crimes invalidate refugee status. Espionage, the USG’s charge, may be a serious crime, but it has a strong whiff of politics – the first trick you learn in Tinhorn Dictatoring 101 is to blame dissent on foreign subversion.

    The US shot itself in the foot when it impulsively took a swing at Snowden with Beria’s favorite bat. Now Snowden looks like America’s Scharansky and Obama looks like America’s Brezhnev. And Putin’s eating it up with a spoon, mmmmm!

  638. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 9:56 pm

    “Who are the true patriots of today? Not the flag-wrapped politicians who send other people’s children off to be killed or disabled in wars to make the world safe for big businesses. Not the flag-waving profiteers who view their successes as their due. Not the crowds who chant USA, USA, USA, upon learning of death of Osama bin Laden. Not the religious hypocrites who worship this nation and its flag as yet another one of their gods.”

    (posted at 21h34 today)
    __________________

    OK, now you’ve told us, at length, who the true patriots of today are NOT, could we please be told who they ARE?

  639. @Fedup 6 14pm

    “Funny how Cuba with its little economy can………export Surgeons, Doctors, Nurses, and medicine to poorer nations, whilst our political leadership is the first to export weapons…”

    Just listen to how Cuban humanitarian interventions have leaked into contemporary african music.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldLO4LwNLHY

    Now that’s what I call a contribution!

    @Ben. If you’re around. Happy Hour’s early tonight.

    …………………
    Jon. email address changed cos I can’t get it accepted . Keep getting message. “Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!

  640. Damn. If I had somehow worked two-edged swords into that second paragraph I would have hit the trifecta of mixed metaphors.

  641. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 10:05 pm

    Cogg; We live in interesting times. Any insights on just who is running the US show-and-tell?

    Surely Obama has to show his authoritarian six-pack, just as bare shirted Putin. Please tell me it’s Kerry. I really think Obama doesn’t want Snowden back. It’s a further fuster-cluck to his shredded civil rights bona fides.

  642. WTF?

    Apologies for the duplicate post folks.
    Strangeness here tonight.

  643. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 10:08 pm

    Kibo; Happy hour is earlier? Oh goody.

  644. “Come on man,it’s OK to admit it…you were really at Glastonbury watching Bruce Forsyth…”

    And what exactly would be the problem with that, both the Bruces are living legends !! ;)

    Actually I wanted to say a few words about the concert; spending over 3 hours with thousands of happy people, who with beautiful smiles lightening up their faces, was simply wonderful in itself, the fantastic music & incredible performances of both the Boss & the band, were just icings on the cake !

    As I gazed at some of the Star & Stripes fluttering around the stadium, I was struck by the poignant thought that the US, has, and can contribute some much good & joy to the rest of the world, yet all this is washed away by the endless oceans of blood resulting from it’s non-stop aggression against the developing World; and for what ?, ultimately for the US rich elite to continue their opulent lifestyles, especially to drive those massively thirsty giant cars on the cheapest petrol possible; and indeed if you ever catch one of these people in a frank mood, as I have, they will be honest & tell that yes, this is indeed the bottom line; honesty is indeed a very fine virtue, but would you be comfortable letting such a persons into your personal circle, and introduce to your family & friends ?

    Ditto the same for Great Britain, the West in general, and even for Israel, so much more to offer the world apart from death & destruction, yet all the positives are swept away by torrents of blood & gore, all in order to enrich the greedy elites.

    Maybe I’m rambling, but just blame it on boogie, blame it on the music, and blame it on the Boss !

  645. @jon. 9 42pm

    Re Menwyth Hill question in Parliament: “I do not recall any M.P. asking this question since.”

    Maybe they didn’t want their cars overturned on the M1.

  646. Who? Evidently nobody. The USG is floundering. Bush purged the top echelons at State and installed CIA detailees and Zionazi arms dealers. Obama promoted them, and now they have no one who knows what’s in the treaties that they signed. (Unless maybe Marc Grossman can tell them what the NPT says.) Now somebody invokes the law and the USG is flummoxed. All the “Hero! Traitor!” perseveration is a last-ditch effort to keep domestic public opinion from seeing what a laughingstock the US government has become. Legitimacy, down the toilet. Responsible sovereignty, down the toilet.

  647. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 10:40 pm

    “down the toilet.’

    Good news/bad news. The way tiny HK duped them was my first clue. It’s a shame the Great Experiment had to be left with ‘He who must be obeyed’. I think it all began with the Petrodollar, but it also has to do with a superior attitude, not just wrt the World, but the constituencies.

  648. @Macky 10 13pm

    “…even for Israel, so much more to offer the world apart from death & destruction…”

    Idan Raichels musical collaborations for example. Fusing Jewish and Arab musical artists and styles. Sharing album proceeds with the nonprofit organization Search for Common Ground, which works to transform the way the world deals with conflict, away from adversarial approaches and towards collaborative problem solving.

    From Wikipedia: “SFCG’s mission of transforming the way the world deals with conflict is best captured by their motto “understanding the differences, acting on commonalities”. According to their guiding philosophy, conflict is a natural part of life, and improving the ability to transform conflict into a source of growth and progress will have a profound impact on how well people are able to deal with each issue they face.

    SFCG believes “peace is a process, not an event”. They work with long-term commitments in each country they serve and become immersed into local cultures.”

    Warms the heart.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYYYctLmnt4&list=RD02WDpUlvF0-Dg

  649. BrianFujisan

    1 Jul, 2013 - 11:01 pm

    Good Piece here on the u.s Disgusting Dastardly manouvers in causing the Libya,and Syrian carnage

    Qatar: US Proxy in America’s Terror War in Syria

    The NYT cites a “Western diplomat” (anonymous of course) who states that Qatar: “punch immensely above their weight,… They keep everyone off-balance by not being in anyone’s pocket… Their influence comes partly from being unpredictable,” Again, this seems to be a desired caveat to remove culpability from Western actors, and is highly likely the same “source” that provided the leak on Qatar’s covert actions.

    What is counterintuitive to the theory that Qatar acts of its own accord in such instance; is the fact that Qatar’s military and intelligence apparatus is entirely built and run by the United States. Qatar and the US have held an intimate relationship on all things military since the early 90′s. Qatar is also the Forward Operations center of the US Central Command (CENTCOM), and the US Combined Air Operation Center (CAOC). The US enjoys the luxury of the use of three airbases in the tiny nation of Qatar, one of which (Al Udeid) is the prime location of Qatari arms flights to Syria.

    Considering this close military relationship; it would be foolish to believe the United States would be unaware of Qatari covert activity, particularly when one also considers the broad and global spying and SIGINT powers we now all know the Pentagon, and US government have at their disposal. It should also be noted that Doha acts as a primary base in the region for US diplomacy, as the Taliban can happily attest to.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/qatar-us-proxy-in-americas-terror-war-in-syria/5341204

  650. I think it all began with the Petrodollar,

    No it all began with the Spanish American war, that was soon followed with the Philippines war. Those sponsors of violence and plunder set the standard for the mess that is manifest today.

    It is really funny to read through the Declaration of the Universal Human Rights, and to find the many articles that Cameron, and Obama governments have disregarded and flouted, yet the same chaps have the temerity of hectoring others on their none adherence to the same convention.

  651. Statement from Edward Snowden in Moscow
    Monday July 1, 21:40 UTC

    http://wikileaks.org/Statement-from-Edward-Snowden-in.html?snow

  652. BrianFujisan

    1 Jul, 2013 - 11:19 pm

    Macky Three Bruce’s

    Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden Fame.. widely recognized as one of top 5 Heavy rock vocalists of all time.
    Who would ever have thought he would end up a commercial aircraft pilot.

    P.s Macky, Good job you’ve been doing taking on the Blog’s Pest in Chief

  653. Clapper under pressure despite apology for ‘erroneous’ statements to Congress

    US director of national intelligence has apologised for denying in March that the NSA collected data on millions of Americans but senator remains ‘deeply troubled’

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/01/james-clapper-apology-congress-erroneous-response

  654. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 11:28 pm

    The weasel-words seem to have less effectiveness, Dreoilin.

    ” does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans,” Wyden asked Clapper.

    He responded: “No, sir, not wittingly. There are cases where they could inadvertently, perhaps, collect, but not wittingly.”

    I think Clapper should trade his lexicon for the ‘Clapper’ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clapper

  655. His latest claim, Ben, is that he “misunderstood the question”. If that’s true, he should be back in kindergarten. ;)

  656. BrianFujisan

    1 Jul, 2013 - 11:36 pm

    Dreoilin

    Thanks for that Statement from Edward Snowden

    Straight onto my Facebook Page

  657. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 11:36 pm

    Dreoilin; Is that avatar you? I love the Irish.

  658. It’s a drawing, Ben. But I liked her red hair and her green hat. :)

  659. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 11:49 pm

    Fantasy spoiler… :)

  660. No longer do you have to be “economical with the truth” you can now be “least most untruthful” !!!!!

    God Blight America !

    http://www.salon.com/2013/07/01/this_man_is_still_lying_to_america/?source=newsletter

  661. @Fedup.11 06pm

    “No it all began with the Spanish American war.”

    Beginnings eh?

    If you haven’t come across these you might find them worth a read as the nights draw in.

    Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee by  Dee Brown 
    A history of Native Americans in the American West in the late nineteenth century that expresses a Native American perspective of the injustices and betrayals of the US government.

    A People’s History of the United States by Howard Zinn. A romp through American history through the eyes of the common people rather than political and economic elites.

    Pdfs of both available for free download.

    And I haven’t got near Herodotus yet!

    …………….

    Re Caterpillar and Frog post, 11 45pm on UN thread.

    Clear and Passionate. Needs to be said.

  662. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Jul, 2013 - 11:54 pm

    Kibo; Remember Adam and Eve and the forbidden fruit. Can’t leave them out.

  663. :)

    Think I’ll head for the duvet. I keep thinking of Ed Snowden with only a hard floor to lie on, or perhaps a row of awkwardly-shaped seats. But at 30 he’ll cope better than I would. And his freedom is all that matters really.

  664. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 12:04 am

    Like Tom Hanks in ‘The Terminal’. Eating from vending machines and using the drinking fountain.

    He has sacrificed much.

  665. @Ben.

    Nit-picking again!

    Adam and Eve are imposters.

    What about the Blue Green Algae?

    Now behave and get yer headphones on.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_EbkUy-IN4

  666. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 12:12 am

    Whoever you are Cog, or Cogg or Coggg, you insight has opened up a new paradigm for me.

    For that i thank you

  667. Kibo Noh, good point.

    “Maybe they didn’t want their cars overturned on the M1″.

  668. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 12:19 am

    kibo; You are a rascal, snaring me into a state of bliss. That’s sublime and hypnotic sound magic deluding me into a false Samadhi. I don’t care that it makes me feel good, it’s just that I’m not accustomed to it. It feels foreign, and makes me afraid. Please don’t do that again. :)

  669. not on what?

    2 Jul, 2013 - 12:24 am

    Thanks for Snowden’s statement.

    When Joe Sixpack USA watches cricket, he doesn’t know the rules so all he sees is people cheering and clapping randomly. Grown-up diplomacy is the same way. When it doesn’t involve war, Joe Sixpack USA is kept in the dark about the rules so he can’t follow the game. So for Snowden spectators, here’s the rules.

  670. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 12:25 am

    I can’t compete with that so I will dumb-down to some pedestrian melody from one of my favorite vocalists, Michael McDonald.

    Cheers and g’nite to all.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJe1iUuAW4M

  671. I have invented the word ‘USPIONAGE’ – espionage like ‘happy hour’ is now old school, obsolescent, useless.

    Uspionage means information gathering on client states to gain deniability of US aggression. The policy has provided America with the ultimate escape clause through decades of aggression and subversion upon other sovereign nations.

    “..the Obama administration is afraid of you. It is afraid of an informed, angry public demanding the constitutional government it was promised..” Edward Snowden July 2013-the unveiling, the year of disclosure.

    The ‘public’ or the community are the silent patriots – it must now be approaching the right time to speak out, to act; Egypt is of course showing that people run the show.

    Clearly Britain will follow America into the blood stained cesspool of history, flushed down by the clear waters of validity, justice and truth.

    Our representatives have failed us; now we must do the task ourselves; there is no surrogate, stopgap or substitute.

    It’s do… or die leaving the mutant horror to our children’s children, a millstone for future generations.

  672. This is quite amusing from a few years ago.

    Israeli TV anchor getting more and more pissed at Chomsky.

    In three parts:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM7IFBIfQ1M

    And so to the chill room:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHsxFpZBtfE

  673. @Mark. 12 30pm

    “Clearly Britain will follow America into the blood stained cesspool of history, flushed down by the clear waters of validity, justice and truth.”

    Spot on.

    Mahatma Gandhi when asked what he thought of Western civilization, replied “I think it would be a good idea.”

    So do I.

    ………….

    @Ben.

    Thanks.
    Another stroll down memorylane.
    I’d forgotten about them.
    You won after all.
    I give up.

    From: “Unearthing the Past” by Bill Poster BLSHTR

    “Controversy still rages over the Bone Beds of Bakersvillle, California. Since the bed’s discovery in the 1850s, paleontologists have battled over an obvious question: How did the Doobie Brothers get there? Did a widespread catastrophe, like a red tide or volcanic eruption, lead to a massive die-off?”

    I’m glad you enjoyed “Je te kiffe.”

    ……………

    @ Herbie. 12 42pm

    What a lovely musical end to a good day.
    Thanks.

    Goodnight.

  674. Let’s get some things clear here re Snowden.

    Only his family, friends and Wikileaks cares about his personal wellbeing. All the other actors are exploiting the opportunity.

    Ecuador has special trade relations with the US at stake and cannot afford to be on their list of countries, such as Cuba, to be punished indefinitely for offending US interests. Americans are very patient when it comes to revenge so the financial cost to Ecuador would be very high if it actively assists with his escape to and indefinite stay in their country. This might explain the contrived “error” of issuing and then later revoking travel documents to Snowden.

    Russia is enjoying the pain of US hypocrisy being played out on the world stage but wants to appear as if it is compelled by law and prevented by legal anomolies from cooperating with the US. I believe they are not directly providing assistance to Snowden but instead clearing the way for others to provide for his needs, including the cost of his staying at the airport hotel.

    Russia will not provide asylum to Snowden while American secrets are being published and publicly digested. They certainly wouldn’t want their own Snowdenovich doing likewise from Washington. Snowden should also be reluctant to hurriedly accept asylum in Russia because of the damage it would cause to his and his family’s reputation – ie characterised as being a Russian spy.

    All of Snowden, Ecuador and Russia are in a safe place with Snowden residing in limbo in the transit area of Sheremetyevo International Airport. With this arrangement, the two countries are able to exploit the NSA leaks while appearing to be concerned about human rights and not being seen to be formally assisting Snowden. It is also an opportunity to explore options for Snowden’s eventual onward journey to a permanent safe haven. The country where he settles will certainly be penalised heavily by the US and Snowden will never be free to travel for the rest of his life.

    In the meantime, Wikileaks will remind the mainstream media of their continued relevance as they process and release further leaks from Snowden.

  675. 1st strike + 0

    2 Jul, 2013 - 6:16 am

    Revenge, hahahahaha, that’s a good one! In the old days the USG would send in some death squads to chop up a bunch of priests and rape the shit out of some nuns, but now all they can do is gossip like bitchy little mean girls.

    Yeah, Ecuador is shaking in their boots, boy. The mighty hyperpower might hurt your feewings, Eeek!

    Cuba, you better watch out! The US might embargo you for 50 years or something, you wouldn’t want that, would you? How would you possibly survive the wrath of the mighty US? Do you imagine that mere leadership of the world’s largest diplomatic bloc can protect you from the disapproval of mighty God Bless America?

    Impotent. Isolated. Disgraced. A laughingstock worldwide. USA! USA! USA!

  676. Attack in Tel Aviv: ‘Jewish girls do not go out with Blacks!’

    http://mondoweiss.net/2013/06/attack-jewish-blacks.html

  677. Ireland among countries where Snowden is seeking asylum

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/ireland-among-countries-where-snowden-is-seeking-asylum-1.1450212

    “A later post, which appeared early today on the WikiLeaks website, said Sarah Harrison, the group’s legal adviser in the Snowden matter, had “submitted by hand a number of requests for asylum and asylum assistance on behalf” of Mr Snowden to 19 countries. They were listed as Austria, Bolivia, Brazil, China, Cuba, Finland, France, Germany, India, Italy, Ireland, the Netherlands, Nicaragua, Norway, Poland, Russia, Spain, Switzerland and Venezuela.”

  678. Flaming June

    2 Jul, 2013 - 7:36 am

    Snowden’s letter to President Correa. I think Ecuador is his first choice for a safe haven. However is he withstanding the stress? Poor man.

    5:46am UK, Tuesday 02 July 2013

    Snowden Slams Obama As Asylum List Revealed

    The whistleblower accuses the US President of “political aggression” and “wheeling and dealing” in an effort to block his asylum

    http://news.sky.com/story/1110386/snowden-slams-obama-as-asylum-list-revealed

  679. Flaming June

    2 Jul, 2013 - 7:40 am

    Morsi. Am I bovvered?

    Egypt crisis: President Morsi rejects army ultimatum
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23140212#

    ‘Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi has rejected the army’s 48-hour ultimatum to resolve the country’s deadly crisis, saying it will only sow confusion.

    President Morsi insists he will continue with his own plans for national reconciliation, a presidential statement said early on Tuesday.

    The army has warned it will intervene if the government and its opponents fail to heed “the will of the people”.’

  680. Flaming June

    2 Jul, 2013 - 7:48 am

    On the BBC website, this question is posed.

    James Buchanan: Worst US president?

    James Buchanan is often saddled with the title of “the worst US president”, blamed for not averting the Civil War – but efforts are being made to reassess his legacy. How bad was he really?

    There’s a clue to the answer in a small photograph of the five
    most recent incumbents.
    http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/68397000/jpg/_68397796_buchanan-comp.jpg

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22946672

  681. Rafael Correa not considering Snowden asylum: ‘we helped him by mistake’

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/02/ecuador-rafael-correa-snowden-mistake

  682. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 7:55 am

    Fedup says, at 23h06 :

    “It is really funny to read through the Declaration of the Universal Human Rights, and to find the many articles that Cameron, and Obama governments have disregarded and flouted, yet the same chaps have the temerity of hectoring others on their none adherence to the same convention.”
    _____________

    Which is another way of saying that there is scarcely a single state which has not violated one or several of the articles of the Universal Declaration, is it not? So why the focus on the UK and USA?

    If you were to respond – as other posters have in the past – by saying “oh, but I am British and therefore care about what my country does”, then why do you single out the USA and remain silent about others?

    ***************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  683. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 7:57 am

    “Rafael Correa not considering Snowden asylum: ‘we helped him by mistake’”
    ____________

    Please refer to my post at 23h51 yesterday :)

  684. Flaming June

    2 Jul, 2013 - 8:20 am

    Where is Shillary when we want a some answers?

    Was Benghazi Killing of Ambassador Stevens, 3 Others “Blowback” for Secret U.S. Assassinations?

    A new book on last year’s Benghazi attack in Libya concludes the killing of U.S. Ambassador Christoper Stevens and three others was in part blowback for a secret assassination operation run in North Africa by the Joint Special Operations Command and John Brennan, President Obama’s then-counterterrorism adviser, now director of the CIA. According to “Benghazi: The Definitive Report,” President Obama’s counterterrorism adviser, John Brennan, and JSOC commander, Admiral Bill McRaven, were running “off the books” unilateral operations in North Africa that were not coordinated through the Pentagon or other governmental agencies, including the CIA. Ambassador Stevens was reportedly never informed about these operations. We’re joined by the book’s authors, Brandon Webb and Jack Murphy, both veterans of U.S. special operations. Last week they published the contents of Ambassador Stevens’ diary from the days before the Benghazi attack on their website, SOFREP.com.

    Transcript

    This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

    http://www.democracynow.org/2013/7/1/was_deadly_benghazi_killing_of_ambassador

  685. http://www.eurasianet.org/node/67198

    Did Cameron’s visit soften the old bastard’s heart?

    Blairspinco ™ working flat out behind the scenes, there.

  686. “Please refer to my post at 23h51 yesterday”

    I can’t see one. I can see Hasbarista at 11:49 pm and Kibo at 11:52 pm. I don’t see you in between.

  687. errr…that should have been Cameron’s visit to Kazakhstan…and the answer is almost certainly not.

  688. Coffee!

  689. Two sugars, please, and an added shot of Red Bull, D. Ta.

  690. Coming up …

  691. @Dreoilin 7 07am

    “Ireland among countries where Snowden is seeking asylum”

    I do hope Snowden looks into Ireland’s record since 9/11 before accepting asylum in Ireland.

    Given “neutral” Ireland’s record of providing Shannon for the transit of millions of US soldiers, unknown numbers of kidnapped people, and unknown quantities of arms (US planes not checked), the odds are that asylum in that country would be short-lived.

    A glimpse of the kind of protectors he would be entrusting with his life to was given most recently in the response to Clare Daly in the Dail.

    In the meantime he continues to show just what the good ole USA really stands for right now.

    Now that the US citizenry know that they too are enemies of the state maybe that worm could turn?.

    Let’s hope courage is indeed contageous.

  692. Flaming June

    2 Jul, 2013 - 8:44 am

    President Maduro who is visiting Moscow says that Edward Snowden deserves the world’s protection. He says that his application for asylum is being given consideration.

  693. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 8:47 am

    @ Dreoilin

    sorry to have sent you off on a wild goose chase; my post was at 21h51 and not 21h51.

    A shot of grappa in mine, please.

  694. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 8:50 am

    @ Mary/April Showers/Flaming June :

    “President Maduro who is visiting Moscow says that..etc”
    _________

    Surely you mean President Maduro Moros ? (You know, like Henrique Capriles Radonski)

    *******************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  695. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 8:52 am

    “Given “neutral” Ireland’s record of providing Shannon for the transit of millions of US soldiers,…etc, etc”
    __________

    Probably for Dreoilin, but when was that? Millions?

    ********************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  696. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 8:54 am

    It’s not yet 10 o’clock BST but the nonsense level is aleady building up dangerously.

    Good job it’s not real smog.

  697. @Dreoilin. 7 00am

    “Attack in Tel Aviv”
    The letter at the end says it all.
    “This is the same reaction my grandmother faced in Germany when the Nazis would stop Germans from walking with her, because she was Jewish.” 

  698. “Given “neutral” Ireland’s record of providing Shannon for the transit of [millions of] US soldiers, unknown numbers of kidnapped people, and unknown quantities of arms (US planes not checked), the odds are that asylum in that country would be short-lived.”

    Ah sure I know. But the Irish Gov’t wouldn’t consider giving to him in a blue fit anyway. They just love the “special relationship” we have with America (based entirely, of course, on the vast numbers who fled to the U.S. during and after the famine + the large number of U.S. presidents with some Irish blood) and they just love trotting over to the WH on St Patrick’s Day with their ceremonial cut glass bowl of shamrock – bah! Stick it to the USA? Not likely.

  699. @Habba. 8 52am

    “Millions?”

    Yes Habba, Millions!
    That’s the correct term when you put a two before six zeros.

    We only know this because in Ireland (proud home of the Boycott) there are still people who care deeply enough to bear witness and count.

    “Ireland has played an active and despicable role in all these crimes against humanity by allowing over two million armed US troops to transit through Shannon airport.”

    Check it out here:

    http://www.shannonwatch.org/blog/more-non-violent-peace-action-shannon-airport

  700. Habbabkuk

    “If I were Julian Assange, I would be a worried man”

    I don’t think so. Correa has reiterated several times that he is on as good terms with Julian as ever.

  701. Kibo,

    I wouldn’t have known “millions” either. But I take your and shannonwatch’s word for it.

  702. Hidden costs of Afghanistan/Iraq still to appear:

    https://research.hks.harvard.edu/publications/workingpapers/citation.aspx?PubId=8956&type=WPN

    As for the US, so, presumably for the UK. The US borrowed to finance Afghanistan and Iraq. We borrowed to finance just about everything:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/oct/18/deficit-debt-government-borrowing-data

    “All political parties have faced their fair share of debt through the years – almost as if the economic climate has its own life independent of who is managing it.”

    Well, duh.

  703. Firefox says “Firefox can’t find the server at http://www.shannonwatch.org ” Pity.

    Apparently, in Ireland anyway, you can’t apply for asylum unless you’re already in the State. That’s a handy “out” for them.

    There is talk now that Russia may give Snowden temporary documents until he finds a country to take him in.

    There is anger in France, also, regarding EU trade negotiations with the U.S. It seems the U.S. has had the French negotiating documents for some time, by spying on the French. So now there is a move in France to suspend (their part in) EU trade negotiations and to offer asylum to Snowden. This has all come to me by telephone.

  704. Snowden has withdrawn his application for asylum in Russia. This is a developing situation though people are rushing to conclusions. He may yet end up in Venezuela and even Ecuador or Iceland. Point is how does he get out of the Catch 22 of being holed up in Moscow airport and having to be on territory to apply to another country. The Russians may yet allow him safe passage to an embassy in Moscow, else?

    The best would still be if China/Hong Kong were to grant him asylum — has he applied to Hong Kong, anyone?

  705. Give it another try, Dreoilin, it came up ok for me. Linked back from Shannonwatch site is this site:

    http://www.therenditionproject.org.uk/global-rendition/the-flights/index.html

    Plenty on here.

  706. “There is talk now that Russia may give Snowden temporary documents until he finds a country to take him in.”

    Looks like it’ll have to come to that, Dreolin.

    I wonder if Chavez was alive if that would’ve been a done deal?

  707. @ Arbed 1 Jul, 2013 – 4:46 pm
    “Ben at 4.39pm: I think the Guardian/Observer pulling that story is sheer embarrassment because Wayne Madsen is known for his very conspiratorial views, and hence not really a very credible source.”

    Why are conspiratorial sources not credible? Conspiracies, from Microsoft’s long-alleged gubmint software backdoor to Icke’s Jimmy Savile allegations are now proved true.

    @ Dreoilin 1 Jul, 2013 – 11:57 pm
    “Think I’ll head for the duvet. I keep thinking of Ed Snowden with only a hard floor to lie on, or perhaps a row of awkwardly-shaped seats. But at 30 he’ll cope better than I would. And his freedom is all that matters really.”

    President Putin has him in Stalin’s old quarters:
    http://englishrussia.com/images/bunker_for_stalin/8.jpg
    http://englishrussia.com/images/bunker_for_stalin/9.jpg

    Bottomless pots of caviar and black bread too. However if Master Spy Snowden craves pizza, chicken and Pepsi (CIA Moscow is on high alert to track pizza deliveries — they know Snowden’s favorite toppings) he hikes 10 miles through the tunnel to the Kremlin, covered in the special acoustic pillows he brought along from Hong Kong and his red hood of invisibility, lugging four(4)laptops with Uncle Sam’s most precious secrets. Should he get lost in the tunnels, he has a Boy Scout’s compass that all well-appointed spies now carry.

    Even senior conspiracists don’t fully note the absurdity. Thus far, Snowden hasn’t revealed any real secrets, only confirmed what was correctly assumed. He’s allowing The Guardian and The Washington Post to select what’s fit to print. How are those two institutions doing that except with advice from their respective security services?

    We could hope he’s made off with the master list of elitist child molesters and cannibals, but even that wouldn’t change much other than provide a few weeks of snickering gossip.

    I like how our own Big Organs of State and Party propaganda invariably remind us, “The revelations were the lead story on Russia Today, the Kremlin’s international propaganda TV channel.” :)

  708. Thanks, Komodo. I have it now.
    And I’m glad to be able to say that I was in Shannon, protesting, myself.

  709. Talking of loan-funded wars of aggression, future prospects for:

    http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2013/07/01/Israel-seeks-50B-in-US-loans-to-buy-arms/UPI-49641372706630/

    $3Bn annually in mostly military aid isn’t enough, it seems.

  710. “President Putin has him in Stalin’s old quarters:
    http://englishrussia.com/images/bunker_for_stalin/8.jpg
    http://englishrussia.com/images/bunker_for_stalin/9.jpg

    Glad to think he has a bed, in that case. As for the .jpgs, they both say “403 forbidden”.

    Hey, spooks, get the F out of my laptop!

  711. “Our” rebels behead a priest in Syria, the Vatican News Agency confirms. Not a word on the BBC.

    Well, there’s Glastonbury and Wimbledon. You can’t cover all the news, can you?

  712. @Dreoilin 9 26am.

    Too bad your firefox turned awkward.

    Here’s most of the piece.

    “Sunday 7 October 2012 is the 11th anniversary of the US led invasion of Afghanistan. The subsequent war and occupation of Afghanistan probably cost the lives of over 100,000 Afghan people. The related and equally unjustified war against the people of Iraq probably cost well over one million Iraqi lives, but we will never know the exact figures because the aggressors deliberately “don’t do body counts”. These criminal wars have been compounded by unspeakable acts of torture and abuses of prisoners in Abu Graib, Guantanamo, Bagram and elsewhere.

    These acts of torture have more recently been replaced by targeted assassinations using special-forces and drone attack-aircraft. The term “targeted assassinations” is of course a misnomer because the vast majority of victims are innocent civilians, unintended so-called “collateral damage”.

    Ireland has played an active and despicable role in all these crimes against humanity by allowing over two million armed US troops to transit through Shannon airport. In addition vast amounts of war materials and dangerous munitions have passed through Shannon and over one thousand CIA associated flights have been refuelled at Shannon.

    In order to highlight and to try and prevent the on-going Irish participation in these abuses of human rights, and the failure of Gardai at Shannon to investigate Irish complicity in torture and other war crimes, a number of peace activists entered Shannon airport at about 4 pm on 7 October 2012, and placed banners beside the main runway at Shannon warning US military and CIA associated aircraft that they are not welcome at Shannon.

    Every precaution has been taken to ensure that this has been a non-violent peaceful action, and to ensure that there has been no risk of injury to any person. This is in marked contrast to the actions of the US troops who passed through Shannon, who have caused so much death and suffering across the Middle East and Central Asia, and some of whom have committed the most serious crimes imaginable.

    President Obama during his visit to Ireland earlier this year thanked the Irish Government for its complicity in these US wars by allowing the warmongers to transit through Shannon airport.

    Peace activists have tried repeatedly by various means to get the Gardai and other involved authorities to prevent this use of Shannon airport for such criminal activities. These efforts included the submission of a large amount of documentary evidence and information to the Gardai at Shannon on 18 March 2011. Seventeen months later a response was received from the Gardai stating that they had: “failed to uncover any evidence concerning breaches of Irish and international laws resulting from the transit of armed U.S. troops and CIA associated aircraft in connection with the wars and military aggression in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere, and in connection with the unlawful detention and torture of prisoners at Guantanamo prison and elsewhere.” This statement beggars belief, given that Judge Kearns of had ruled in the High Court in April 2003 that the Irish Government was in breach of International laws of neutrality, and that full details of this judgement were submitted to the Gardai at Shannon on 18 March 2011. If the Garda investigation into these matters failed to uncover any evidence into the matters complained of, this is most likely because the focus of any such investigation was to cover up any such evidence rather than to uncover it.”

    A sense of humanity still alive and kicking in the Emerald Isle.

    And isn’t Clare Daly just a gem?

  713. NR,

    If the US are playing a double agent game with Master Spy Snowden they must surely know that would be Putin and FSB’s first thought too.The Russians would make sure,as a basic matter of spook protocol,that he’d be kept quarantined in perpetuity from any sensitive Russian info and personnel.

    It makes no sense for the US to try such a clumsily basic play.

    They will know the Russians aint so dumb to fall for such a ham-fisted manouver.

    Where’s the angle?

  714. “Snowden is in the transit area of Sheremetyevo airport and has not crossed the Russian Federation’s border (onto Russian soil)… Russia has never extradited anyone, is not extraditing anyone and will not extradite anyone,” Peskov told reporters.”

    http://news.yahoo.com/snowden-transit-area-drops-russia-asylum-request-kremlin-082047503.html

    27 mins ago from Reuters

  715. @Dreoilin.

    Glad you found it while I was copying and pasting.

    Good on you bearing witness at Shannon.

  716. “Hey, spooks, get the F out of my laptop!”

    Probably just anti leaching measures.

    It’s bad form to post links to images on other sites on a forum, uses up their bandwidth for your benefit. Some sites block it.

  717. Re “403 forbidden”, clicking on the link doesn’t get you there, but copying the link location and pasting that into the search window does. It’s a server error, someone hasn’t set it up properly. Not spooks (this time)

  718. “Hey, spooks, get the F out of my laptop!”

    Hey, I was kidding

    Thanks for the advice Komodo

  719. “Re “403 forbidden”, clicking on the link doesn’t get you there, but copying the link location and pasting that into the search window does. It’s a server error, someone hasn’t set it up properly. Not spooks (this time)”

    No it isn’t a server error.

    Look folks there are nice people out there on the internet who put up interesting sites for our benefit. If you post links directly to images on their sites to a busy blog you are stealing a lot of their bandwidth. It’s theft and it’s no error when they block referrers.

  720. @ Dreoilin 2 Jul, 2013 – 10:00 am
    “Glad to think he has a bed, in that case. As for the .jpgs, they both say “403 forbidden”. Hey, spooks, get the F out of my laptop!”

    The links work for me. Any reason the Russians don’t want you to see the splendor of Stalin’s bunker? Re later comments — that’s weird, it works on a direct click for me.

    @ Jives 2 Jul, 2013 – 10:08 am
    “NR, If the US are playing a double agent game with Master Spy Snowden they must surely know that would be Putin and FSB’s first thought too.The Russians would make sure,as a basic matter of spook protocol,that he’d be kept quarantined in perpetuity from any sensitive Russian info and personnel.”

    “It makes no sense for the US to try such a clumsily basic play.”
    “They will know the Russians aint so dumb to fall for such a ham-fisted manouver.”
    “Where’s the angle?”

    I’ve got it! The NSA and Mossad put their new YuksNet virus on the four (4) laptops that Snowden is carrying, knowing the Chinese and Russians couldn’t resist extracting the alleged secrets. Too late now. When they connected to the laptops their own networks were hopelessly compromised. :)

    @ Dreoilin 2 Jul, 2013 – 10:09 am
    “Snowden is in the transit area of Sheremetyevo airport and has not crossed the Russian Federation’s border (onto Russian soil)… 27 mins ago from Reuters”

    They would say that, while they have him wined and dined and hooked up with the finest replacement pole dancers. :)

  721. Fred – It’s a known problem with that (proxy) server outfit: I did check. Incidentally, we could both be wrong (Shock! Horror!) – I just clicked on the link again, and it came up instantly…

  722. Thanks for all your c ‘n’ p-ing, Kibo.

    Everything just hung here. I only had email and the browser open so I don’t see why. But it’s a pain in the neck, so I’m going off for a while.

    ‘Only when the last river has been polluted, and the last tree been cut down, and the last fish been caught, will we realise we cannot eat money.’
    - Cree saying

  723. “It’s bad form to post links to images on other sites on a forum, uses up their bandwidth for your benefit. Some sites block it.”

    Most sites offering pictures welcome the hits, Fred. They’re there for the public to see. Picture of fruity lady with no clothes on here -
    (No it isn’t -Ed)

  724. No no no, Mr Snowden’s visit will no doubt encompass the sites of the cities purvey the beautiful countryside and beaches and dancing. The ballet of course.
    Samely but wonderful no doubt.

  725. “Fred – It’s a known problem with that (proxy) server outfit: I did check. Incidentally, we could both be wrong (Shock! Horror!) – I just clicked on the link again, and it came up instantly…”

    It would do, it’s only coming from your cache not from the site. You already accessed it from a direct link.

  726. Not “Iran’s Hezbollah” then? Let’s see what sort of courage the Bulgarians can muster and reject the ludicrous claims of Hezbollah terrorism from Israel, for which they alone are responsible.

    http://forward.com/articles/179626/jewish-ex-interior-minister-to-be-investigated-in/

  727. Duh! You’re right. In which case what I said before. The server software is nginx, and there is a reported problem with its index access. This is fixable at the server end.

  728. “Duh! You’re right. In which case what I said before. The server software is nginx, and there is a reported problem with its index access. This is fixable at the server end.”

    The server gets the exact same http request when you copy and paste the link as when you click on it. Only difference is if you click on the link there will be a referral address in the header. If it was an indexing problem both would fail.

  729. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 11:54 am

    @ Dreoilin

    “Habbabkuk

    “If I were Julian Assange, I would be a worried man”

    I don’t think so. Correa has reiterated several times that he is on as good terms with Julian as ever.”
    ___________

    Correa may be more bluster and less Castro. One may be on ‘good terms’ with someone, but I’m not sure how bankable that is.

    Anyway, we shall see.

    Should I be wrong, I will give permission for a limited number of Excellences to chuck a few more buckets of s**t over me; should the opposite turn out to be the case, I promise to crow.

  730. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 12:00 pm

    re Shannon and the American millions

    I note that the “millions” claimed on here by someone or other has now morphed into “over two million”.

    Honey, I shrunk the kids! :)

    Anyway, that’s what Shannonwatch claims. Given where they’re coming from, I think I’d prefer to treat that ‘info’ with some caution.

    Perhaps as solid as the claims, made at the time, that “thousands” of Palestinians were killed in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead….

    ***************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  731. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 12:11 pm

    @ Komodo (09h16)

    “Hidden costs of Afghanistan/Iraq still to appear:…etc”
    __________

    I’m glad you said that because it reminded me to ask tyou if you’d had any further thoughts about how UK govt expenditure (annual, Komodo, annual)on pensions, social security and the NHS (which Kempe reminded us is £201 billion) compared with UK govt expenditure on defence. Have you?

    You rightly go on to say :

    “We borrowed to finance just about everything:…etc”

    Which is correct and which is also why everyone should applaud the present govt for trying to reduce the national debt or at least slow down its runaway increase. (It may of course be that you are in favour of saddling future generations with even more debt)

    ***************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  732. Fred, My impression from the site I looked at was that the index failure could have been invoked by an embedded link while it would work from the browser address bar. But no matter – I don’t buy your suggestion either. Out.

  733. http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=610091

    There’s oil in them thar fishing grounds.

  734. Flaming June

    2 Jul, 2013 - 12:52 pm

    Stop and search to be used more sparingly.

    Stop-and-search powers: Public to have say
    Stop and- search in progress People should not be stopped because of their ethnicity, Theresa May is to say

    The public will be consulted on changing how police in England and Wales use stop-and-search powers, the home secretary is due to announce.

    About 1.2 million stops took place in 2011-12 – but only 9% led to an arrest.

    Theresa May is expected to say stop-and-search powers must be used more carefully to ensure people are not stopped because of their ethnicity.

    /..http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23140505

    She is speaking now following Cameron on Afghanistan.

  735. Flaming June

    2 Jul, 2013 - 12:56 pm

    Back to topic, I heard on Radio 4 this morning that landlords will now be required by the Border Agency to check on their tenants in case any illegal immigrants have slipped through the net.

  736. Flaming June

    2 Jul, 2013 - 1:01 pm

    Don’t know if this has been posted as there have so many posts this morning. I have been doing my aguafit to the sound of 60s pop! Took me back.

    The BBC probably enjoyed putting this up and some here will be pleased.

    2 July 2013 Last updated at 12:13

    Edward Snowden’s asylum options narrow

    Edward Snowden is wanted in the US on charges of leaking secrets Fugitive intelligence leaker Edward Snowden has suffered a setback in his attempts to avoid extradition to the US, as a number of countries have rejected his requests for asylum.

    Eight European states including Spain and Germany said asylum applicants had to be on their soil.

    India has also said no.

    Mr Snowden, who is at Moscow airport, sent requests to 21 countries in total, Wikileaks said, but he later withdrew a request to Russia.

    /..
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23145887

  737. “landlords will now be required by the Border Agency to check on their tenants in case any illegal immigrants have slipped through the net.”

    The ones who are housing poor immigrants in sheds in their back gardens (minus proper bathrooms, heating, or fridges) will be unlikely to do that. It’s far too lucrative for them.

  738. The headline in the Irish Times reads

    Venezuala looking like whistle-blower’s last hope

    But I think I counted about 10 countries which are listed as either “status unknown” or “he’d have to be here to make a request”. So if the Russians give him travel documents, he could presumably “be here” in any of those cases. And “Bolivian President Evo Morales told Russian state-run RT television today that his country is ready to consider Snowden’s request.”

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/venezuala-looking-like-whistle-blower-s-last-hope-1.1450301

  739. Flaming June –

    can’t even open PressTV at present, but u can find these by doing search of the headlines:

    PressTV – Is Eutelsat CEO an Israeli?
    Nov 5, 2012 – Eutelsat is a person, not a company. Eutelsat says it is European, but it is actually Israeli. French sounding ‘Michel de Rosen’ runs Eutelsat, an Israeli citizen, company with Israeli stockholders, a company long dictated to by extremist groups within Israel, the militant ultra-nationalists of the Likudist regime of Netanyahu.”

    PressTV – Eutelsat Israeli chief behind attack on Iran channels
    Feb 24, 2013 – In the letter obtained by Press TV, the Franco-Israeli Eutelsat chief has warned satellite companies to remove Iranian channels or prepare to …

  740. Flaming June

    2 Jul, 2013 - 1:20 pm

    A weird one here. Was it a Mossad op?

    July 2, 2013 Tuesday

    Ex-Argentina Jewish gov’t official to be probed in bombing

    By JTA

    BUENOS AIRES, Argentina — The Jewish ex-interior minister of Argentina will be investigated for his ties to the AMIA Jewish center bombing.

    The Buenos Aires Federal Appeals Court last week ordered the probe of Carlos Vladimir Corach in connection with an illegal payment of $400,000 to Carlos Telleldin, an auto mechanic who was among those charged in the 1994 attack that left 85 dead and hundreds wounded.

    Telleldin, who allegedly provided the car bomb that blew up the Jewish center, has not been indicted.

    The three Appeals Court justices called on Federal Judge Ariel Lijo to investigate “the existence of concrete allegations involving Carlos Vladimir Corach, which have not been investigated until now” regarding the illegal payment to Telleldin.

    Corach was interior minister during the Carlos Menem government in the 1990s. He was responsible for obtaining the building for the Holocaust Museum of Buenos Aires and was the main speaker at its inauguration.

  741. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 1:21 pm

    “Back to topic, I heard on Radio 4 this morning that landlords will now be required by the Border Agency to check on their tenants in case any illegal immigrants have slipped through the net.”
    _____________

    And why not.

    Of course, the task of combatting illegal immigration would be made immeasurably easier if there were an identity card system in the UK.

    In all of the countries I’ve had the pleasure and privilege of frequenting, you need ID from the country in question to do most things associated with residing there as opposed to just visiting (eg rental agreements, buying a house, opening a bank account, accessing state benefits, enrolling your children in school, etc etc). If you can’t produce that, then you will probably not be reported to the competent authorities but you will be unable to access the thing you wanted. Not a perfect system, but it sure makes life more difficult for illegal immigrants and, for the matter, villains in general.

    In most continental countries

  742. Cast Lead

    One and a Half Million People Imprisoned
    27 Dec 2009

    Between 27 December 2008 and 18 January 2009, the Israeli military carried out an attack on the Gaza Strip named Operation Cast Lead. The magnitude of the harm to the population was unprecedented: 1,385 Palestinians were killed, 762 of whom did not take part in the hostilities. Of these, 318 were minors under age 18. More than 5,300 Palestinians were wounded, of them over 350 seriously so. Israel also caused enormous damage to residential dwellings, industrial buildings, agriculture and infrastructure for electricity, sanitation, water, and health, which was on the verge of collapse prior to the operation. According to UN figures, Israel destroyed more than 3,500 residential dwellings and 20,000 people were left homeless.

    http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/20091227_a_year_to_castlead_operation

    Rocket attacks killed three Israeli civilians and one member of the Israeli security forces, and wounded dozens. Nine soldiers were killed within the Gaza Strip, four by friendly fire. More than 100 soldiers were wounded, one critically and 20 moderately to seriously.

    This subject is found in wikipedia under “Gaza War” — I don’t call that a “war”. I call it a vicious punishment attack. No wonder it’s been annotated:

    “The neutrality of this article is disputed.”

  743. Oops, forgot my inverted commas …

  744. Flaming June

    2 Jul, 2013 - 1:30 pm

    Bit of a barney going on with the landlords immigrant check proposal. My money is on the heavyweight in the blue corner!

    UK government to back down on plans to make landlords police immigration
    14 June 2013

    For concise and recent immigration information watch our news.

    The UK government has backtracked on a major policy initiative designed to combat illegal immigration. In March, the UK’s prime minister, David Cameron, announced that all landlords were to be required to check the immigration status of all tenants before allowing them to rent flats. They would only be legally allowed to let to tenants with permission to be in the UK. Any landlord found not to have carried out the test would be liable for a hefty fine, Mr Cameron said.

    However, since then, Communities Secretary Eric Pickles has tried to water down the proposals. It has been reported that there were heated scenes in cabinet while Mr Pickles told the prime minister that most landlords in the UK are individuals, not large companies and would find the imposition of yet more ‘red tape’ (or bureaucratic requirements) difficult to cope with. He said that there were likely to be legal challenges to the proposed checks.

    /..
    http://www.workpermit.com/news/2013-06-14/uk-government-to-back-down-on-plans-to-make-landlords-police-immigration

  745. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 1:36 pm

    @ Dreoilin – further to illegal immigration :

    “The ones who are housing poor immigrants in sheds in their back gardens (minus proper bathrooms, heating, or fridges) will be unlikely to do that. It’s far too lucrative for them.”
    ______________

    You are probably right. But then they should be prosecuted if ever discovered in any way. It is an offence under UK law to assist someone else in criminal activity. Nobody seems to mind employers of illegal immigrants (or human traffickers)being prosecuted if they are found out and it is difficult to understand why landlords should not face similar prosecution.

    =========

    More generally (and I’m certainly not aiming this at you), I sometimes get the impression from the tone and content of posts on this subject that many Eminences don’t believe in immigration control and are not at all fussed by illegal immigration. I don’t recall ever having seen them, in those posts, confirming that they oppose illegal immigration. Whether their attitude is based on human feeling for the illegal immigrants or an blind hatred for the govt and all its works is, of course, a question only they can answer.

  746. “Ex-Argentina Jewish gov’t official to be probed in bombing”

    Where did you get that, Mary? You didn’t give a source. Was it Medialens?

  747. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 1:40 pm

    Hey, Dreoilin, you know perfectly well what the point of my reference to Cast Lead was. Play it straight!

  748. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 1:42 pm

    ““Ex-Argentina Jewish gov’t official to be probed in bombing”

    Where did you get that, Mary? You didn’t give a source. Was it Medialens?”
    ____________

    Probably that well-known website “Sniff out the evil Jew behind everything.org”

  749. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 1:45 pm

    No, I was jesting (a little). The source is at the top, it’s JTA, which I think is thre Jewish Telegraph Agency or something like that

  750. What do you mean, “Play it straight”?
    Find out how many US soldiers have passed through Shannon?

    Since the Irish authorities won’t even board the planes, as they are fully entitled – and even obliged – to do, and since presumably the US doesn’t provide numbers and inventories, I have no idea where I would be supposed to go to find out.
    I see no reason to doubt Shannonwatch anyway.

    “You are probably right. But then they should be prosecuted if ever discovered in any way.”

    The back garden sheds I’m referring to were featured in a TV programme, probably on Channel 4. I hope they passed on the details.

  751. http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1372756125.html

    ——————————-

    “Probably that well-known website “Sniff out the evil Jew behind everything.org”

    LOL! Sorry, Mary, but that was funny. :)

  752. “You are probably right. But then they should be prosecuted if ever discovered in any way. It is an offence under UK law to assist someone else in criminal activity.”

    These so-called landlords don’t care what people’s status is. And when I said I hoped Channel 4 passed on the details, I was talking about prosecution of these “landlords”. And I didn’t mention illegal immigrants, I said, “poor immigrants”.

  753. Flaming June -

    can’t even open Press TV at the moment, but from search results:

    PressTV – Is Eutelsat CEO an Israeli?
    Nov 5, 2012 – Eutelsat is a person, not a company. Eutelsat says it is European, but it is actually Israeli. French sounding ‘Michel de Rosen’ runs Eutelsat, an Israeli citizen, company with Israeli stockholders, a company
    long dictated to by extremist groups within Israel, the militant
    ultra-nationalists of the Likudist regime of Netanyahu.” Gordon Duff (of Veterans Today) told Press TV…

    PressTV – Eutelsat Israeli chief behind attack on Iran channels
    Feb 24, 2013 – In the letter obtained by Press TV, the Franco-Israeli
    Eutelsat chief has warned satellite companies to remove Iranian channels or
    prepare to …

  754. Not “Iran’s Hezbollah” then? Let’s see what sort of courage the Bulgarians can muster and reject the ludicrous claims of Hezbollah terrorism from Israel, for which they alone are responsible.

    The Argentinians are no longer playing the Banana republic game, and are bent on sorting their problematic contracted out personnel. Bulgarians have also made known their findings; the bus bombing had nothing to do with Iran or Lebanon! Although, as yet they have not pointed fingers at anyone else, unlike the Argentinians.

    Menem was always a bell hop for the powers be, he literally destroyed Argentina.

    - – - – -

    $3Bn annually in mostly military aid isn’t enough, it seems.

    Note the convoluted money go around scheme, everybody gets their cut, and the Amen corner (US Congress) is kept harrumphing to the AIPAC approved sound bites.

    Take note of the number of times “Iran” is mentioned, and the number of times “attack on Iran” is inferred, implied and mentioned. The shitty little strip of land is always laying claim to being pieceful; a piece of Palestine (rather a big piece), a piece of Golan, a piece of Sheba Farms, a piece of Sinai, a piece of Kurdistan, a piece of Iraq, a piece of Iran, a piece of the action in US, a piece of the action in UK, a piece of Darfur, apiece of…… Why oh why everybody is against the little armed to the teeth with nuclear and thermonuclear bombs (these are not weapons of mass destruction) little shitty strip of land?

    Jonathan Schanzer, executive director of the Foundation for the Defense of the Democracies in Washington, said the U.S. package conformed to an Israeli wish-list presented to the Pentagon that included some items that were not discussed publicly, presumably because they were intended for an assault on Iran.

    – - – - – -

    ROFL

    Does anyone ever follow the links on this board?

    - – - – -

    Just for the confusion:

    How do you like these apples.

    Ease up on the hate mate!

    Is this a cutesy threatening with menaces?

  755. oops just saw my comment to Flaming June had gone thru already. i was having trouble opening Craig’s site as well as PressTV. apologies.

    while obama promises a bright future for “Africa”, this is the best analysis of the Egyptian protests i’ve heard:

    Sharif Abdel Kouddous: Millions Protesting Morsi Show Egyptian Revolution Still Going Strong
    http://www.democracynow.org/2013/7/1/sharif_abdel_kouddous_millions_protesting_morsi

    don’t know if u know Morris, but his manner gets him some poignant answers, especially regarding Libya. everything said in this interview says so much about Libya, Egypt, Syria & even Mali, etc. in other words, it’s about what Obama is actually DOING TO Africa:

    Morris: Libya Update June 29/30 – Phone Call
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKpIzod7xKQ&feature=youtu.be

  756. The little Qatar has been enjoying “punching above their weight” (perching on the Uncle Sam’s shoulders of course), however all this talk of Arab Spring has finally got to the little punchers home shores: UAE court sentences 64 to jail on charges of planning coup, report says

    On Tuesday, the Federal Supreme Court handed 56 people prison sentences of ranging between seven and 10 years, and eight others were sentenced to 15 years in prison in absentia.

    The defendants, including lawyers, university students and professors, were arrested between March and December 2012. They had denied the charges and said that they have been abused in prison, a claim the government denied.

    Human rights groups have criticized the trial, saying it included “flagrant flaws.” They also alleged that some of the defendants had been subjected to mistreatment in prison including torture.

    The UAE has been cracking down on activists inspired by the Arab revolutions that have been sweeping the region since 2011.

    The very epitome of freedom and democracy won’t you agree?

  757. Tech Savage

    2 Jul, 2013 - 2:49 pm

    “Ex-Argentina Jewish gov’t official to be probed in bombing”

    Where did you get that, Mary? You didn’t give a source. Was it Medialens?

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/pandering-to-racism/comment-page-4/#comment-415954

    Probably that well-known website “Sniff out the evil Jew behind everything.org”

    What a sad little Sayanim you really are, trying to deflect all criticism away from your beloved Zionist paymasters, it is actually from the Jewish media, who appear to be able to say things that are verboten in Europe and the US, as you have proved with your infantile knee-jerk comment.

  758. Fred is correct about these Russian jpegs upthread. They are blocked based on the referrer (ie which page they were on – in this case Craig’s blog)

    Everytime you click an external (to the site you are on) link on a webpage (or the webpage displays the image from another site on the page itself), the remote site is told by your browser what page the link/image was imbedded in. Some sites intentionally block this “hot-linking” so you have to actually visit the site to see the images. It is even possible to substitute another image. For example an image could be served saying “Hot-linking from craigmurray.org.uk not allowed”.

    I run smart-referrer add-on for firefox with the default of “send the url you are going to as referrer”. With that setting enabled I can click on these links and they display directly from this page without having to visit the site. The site has no idea I an reading the link from this page. Avalable at https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/smart-referer/

    Most web users are not aware that the destination link they click on normally knows where they came from.

  759. “Iran Minister of Culture and Islamic Guidance Mohammad Hosseini says Tehran will take the necessary legal measures to counter the Western satellite companies’ move to pull the plug on Iranian channels.”

    More
    http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/07/02/311885/iran-to-take-legal-action-on-media-ban/

  760. Tech Savage

    2 Jul, 2013 - 2:56 pm

    ‘Probably that well-known website “Sniff out the evil Jew behind everything.org’

    A thinly disguised accusation of being an anti-Semite levelled at a Mary there, that’s how you know this story has the chops, unlike Hababkak, who is getting increasingly blatant in his role (much to my amusement).

  761. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 3:10 pm

    @ Dreoilin

    You post in good faith (I’m sure of that) and so I am happy to answer/clarify.

    1/. “Play it straight” : I meant that I saw your recap of the Gaza casualities during Cast Lead as somehow contesting my illustration, made in the context of the Shannon exchange, of how certain sources ‘with an interest’ make a habit of inflating numbers. But I admit is is possible to read your posts as in fact supporting what I said about the number of Gaza deaths. Is that how you meant it?

    2/. “Immigrants and landlords” – you are right, I’d overlooked that you said “poor” and not “illegal”. Even so, though, assisting illegal immigrants is illegal, whereas – unfortunately – screwing the poor is not (usually). As to passing on the details, I guess the reporters would not do so (as a matter of principle (protection of sources, etc) – whether or not the victims were illegal immigrants.
    (Yes, I understood you meant prosecuting the landlords and not the tenants).

    Will you allow two PSs, one on each.

    PS1. I wonder what Shannonwatch’s methodology was? I suppose one would have to know how many US military have served in Iraq and Afghanistan since the beginning of these two wars and also know more about the number and geography of the various transport routes.

    PS2. You’ll have noticed from one of Mary’s latest that she seems very pleased with the idea that the govt might drop/be forced to drop its ideas on landlords wrt illegal immigrants. One really has to wonder about the mindset of someone like that: if she said “I am against because (eg) it won’t work” (as you do) or because it violates someone’s human rights, ” or whatever, then fair enough. But she doesn’t and so gives the strong impression that she either against anything this govt does as a matter of principle or that she thinks that illegal immigration is just dandy.

  762. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 3:15 pm

    @ Tech Savage

    “it is actually from the Jewish media,..”
    __________

    Yes indeed. As I pointed out at 13h45 (pls refer).

    Please be less careless.

    **************

    La vita è bella, life is GOOD!

  763. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 3:24 pm

    @ Tech Savage

    “A thinly disguised accusation of being an anti-Semite levelled at a Mary there, that’s how you know this story has the chops, unlike Hababkak, who is getting increasingly blatant in his role (much to my amusement).”
    _____________

    Has to be thin , laddie, if I want someone as obtuse as you to pick it up. And it’s something which has been noticed and commented on by other infinitely more respectable posters by me.

    But I’m happy to hear that, despite appearances (you seem quite exercised), you’re amused. See this as my contribution to your own personal “La vita è bella, life is good!”

  764. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 3:25 pm

    “..than me.” :)

  765. Fair enough, Anon. An ounce of explanation is worth a ton of dogmatism, thanks. Yes, it could be intentional.

  766. Being an illegal immigrant is not good enough reason to rat out a person to the authorities. There are many complex reasons for people finding themselves in odd situations including being present in another country without permission. Snitching on them can have bad side effects on innocent people.

    If that person is of good character, I would hope that people would let the man go about his business without causing him trouble. But if he’s a known thief, parasite or violent offender, you can fire his arse out of a cannon with my blessings.

  767. “We are the Borg. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/video/2013/jul/02/google-glass-video-review

    Just wait until they link them in to a real-time Google Earth street-view.

  768. “But I admit is is possible to read your posts as in fact supporting what I said about the number of Gaza deaths. Is that how you meant it?”

    No, Habbabkuk. People talk about thousands of ‘casualties’, and in my experience, they often mean both killed and wounded.
    1,385 Palestinians were killed, and more than 5,300 were wounded. That’s probably where the “thousands” comes from.

    “Even so, though, assisting illegal immigrants is illegal, whereas – unfortunately – screwing the poor is not (usually).”

    Charging for accommodation that is way, way, way, below par, and doesn’t comply with the most basic requirements, is sick and should be criminalized if it’s not already. The programme I saw is mentioned here:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/22/sub-standard-private-housing

    “I wonder what Shannonwatch’s methodology was?”

    I have no idea. But I intend to find out. I’m curious myself. They give some figures here
    http://www.shannonwatch.org/sites/shannonwatch.org/files/ShannonFactsheet.pdf

    Some information is from the Dept for Transport. For example, ‘Permits Issued to Carry Munitions of War
    through Ireland or Irish Airspace’

  769. An interview with lying UKIP toad Nige, the Farrage, hollering away against the daemonic Wind turbines, Don quixote eat you heart out, he says he wants to emulate the Lib Dems?
    He has a penchant for posh Tories and bankers just like him, he loves the EU for the money it brings to UKIP and despite so desperately wanting out, he has a massive EU campaign plan for next year….

    http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/politics/ukip_leader_nigel_farage_wants_to_emulate_lib_dem_success_in_bid_to_hold_balance_of_power_at_westminster_1_2258183

  770. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 4:17 pm

    @ Dreoilin

    Sorry to have to come back again. I know that people talk about “thousands of casualties”, but I was specifically referring to the outraged posts and comments ommediately after Cast Lead that talked about “thousabds of DEATHS”. They were many and they turned out to have been exaggerating wildly (as the reference you supplied shows yet again) Thousands of deaths it was they claimed, not thousands of casualties.

  771. Tech Savage

    2 Jul, 2013 - 4:18 pm

    “Yes indeed. As I pointed out at 13h45 (pls refer).”

    That was AFTER the comment I was referring to. My God,the chutzpah! Do you have no shame at all? You were trying to pretend you were joking for those less familiar with your tactics, but you weren’t. You call people anti-Semite for despising a despotic shit-hole like Israel while you cheer on the destruction of Syria.

  772. @Habba.12 00pm

    Ok Habba you win.

    Number two now reclassified as singular.

    Thousands of years of mathematical discovery and semantics down the pan.

    Oh! But of course, we’re in Habba-world where all is deffinitely not as it seems.

    And all just so Habba can score a point, cosy in the knowledge that not that many US soldiers passed through a neutral country’s airport on the way to shock and awe. What’s all the fuss about helping two million armed soldiers into the killing fields?

    HTF can millions morph into millions?

    Times like these I really miss Sofia.

    Why am I bothering at all. More the fool me.

    Now I want to get back and read the interesting stuff.

  773. “There are many complex reasons for people finding themselves in odd situations …”

    That’s true. I know someone whose visa in the U.S. was about to run out when he was a witness to a horrible road accident at 2am. He was told by the police not to move a muscle until they had taken a statement from him, and that he might be needed as a witness in court. The person who was injured (brain damaged) was an off-duty police officer. Needless to say, the visa running out became almost irrelevant. Rules can always be bent, if the “authorities” need or want to bend them.

  774. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 4:29 pm

    @ Dreoilin

    And just as an afterthought:

    I should be more impressed by the frequent posts on the number of casualties inflicted by the Israelis on the Gazans, and other examples of Israeli behaviour over the last 50 years, if I thought for one moment that the commenters concerned were themselves even half as concerned by the infinitely higher numbers of people who were killed, executed, imprisoned, tortured and otherwise had their lives ruined over the same period by the leaders of Syria, Egypt (all the way back to Colonel Nasser), Iraq (Saddam Hussein and illustrious predecessors like mad General Kassem), Libya, Jordan (both the boy king and his late father Hussein…not to mention the wonderful regimes in Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia.

    (And to those who try and weasel out of this by saying “”oh, but they did it to their own people”, I would reply that….human rights are human rights).

    Not too many peeps about all of that, eh, when people qre sounding off about Israel. And they didn’t even have the excuse of being under threat, real or imagined.

  775. “They were many and they turned out to have been exaggerating wildly (as the reference you supplied shows yet again) Thousands of deaths it was they claimed, not thousands of casualties.”

    1) Then quote me some of these, and link to them please.

    2) Wasn’t the deaths and injuries toll as given by B’Tselem horrendous, Habbabkuk? Against a mostly civilian population who were effectively locked in?? And wasn’t it entirely out of proportion to the force ranged against the Israelis – and the puny weapons they had at their disposal? Talk about shooting fish in a barrel … it was disgusting.

  776. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 4:39 pm

    @ Tech Savage (16h18)

    Yes, it was after – all of 3 minutes after.

    So don’t be a chump and discuss the real issues.
    ________

    And, by the way, I call those who are anti-Jewish, anti-Jewish. As I said, others have noticed and commented and you can’t get round that, can you.

  777. @Habba. Allthefeckingtime today.

    I just read the interesting stuff but noticed your little problem with the meaning of numbers resurfacing over other issues.

    So, since I am feeling kind today I found this website to help you.

    http://www.edurite.com/kbase/free-online-math-for-dummies-online

    I’m sure you’ll like it because it says “erudite”

    Now for the links.

    Yes Fedup, this dummy clicks most of them.

  778. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Jul, 2013 - 4:50 pm

    @ Dreoilin

    “1) Then quote me some of these, and link to them please.

    2) Wasn’t the deaths and injuries toll as given by B’Tselem horrendous, Habbabkuk? Against a mostly civilian population who were effectively locked in?? And wasn’t it entirely out of proportion to the force ranged against the Israelis – and the puny weapons they had at their disposal? Talk about shooting fish in a barrel … it was disgusting.”
    ___________

    I can quote you nothing from this blog because, as you know, I wasn’t following it then. But there were lots of accusation like that out there, believe me. Do you really expect me to have kept a list in the expectation that a few years afterwards I would need to reply to a question like yours?

    Re. your second para, horrible as any event like that is, your talk of shooting fish in a barrel is emotional and not rational. The operation went on for several days. Had that been their intention, the Israelis would have been able to kill and injure, and would have killed and injured, many, many more people than they did. As to the proportionality, it is clear that they wanted to teach Hamas a lesson. Perhaps Hamas should have anticipated that, in the same way as it should have – and did, of course – appreciate that the Gazan population is mainly civilian and enclosed.

  779. Habbu-Clown; “Not too many peeps about all of that, eh, when people qre sounding off about Israel. And they didn’t even have the excuse of being under threat, real or imagined.”

    Does this ring a bell ?

    “I think the reason people don’t post on such issues is simply that these things are universally condemned and hardly worth the effort of pointing out on a forum where it can be tacitly assumed most people are on the same page.”

    You have proved that you cannot engage in a rational debate, mostly by ignoring points that are put to you as if they don’t exist; if you were to “man up” & argue your position against counter points instead of ducking them, then you wouldn’t appear as ridiculous as you do; then again if you hold ridiculous positions, you will always appear ridiculous !

  780. Herbie