Pandering to Racism

by craig on June 26, 2013 1:52 pm in Uncategorized

Here in Ghana people are stunned by the announcement that a bond of £3,000 will have to be submitted by visa applicants to the UK, redeemable on return.

It is unpleasant for a nation to be singled out as comprised of particularly untrustworthy individuals against whom special measures are needed.  Theresa May appears quite deliberately to be singling out countries whose citizens are normally black or brown – India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Ghana and Nigeria.  They are all citizens with extremely close ties to the UK.  For example, all of those countries supplied large numbers of men to British armed forces in two World Wars; with little resulting gratitude.

The true level of Britain’s regard for the Commonwealth is disclosed in all its arrogance; citizenship of the Commonwealth countries with the longest link to the UK will become a positive disadvantage in visa application.  Israeli settlers living in Occupied Palestine on the West Bank, incidentally, will still be allowed to enter the UK without any visa at all, despite membership of neither Commonwealth nor EU.  Paradoxical, isn’t it?

The measure shows the arrogant British disdain for these countries – of which India pre-eminently but also Ghana are fast growing and important trading partners.  Undoubtedly Ghana will retaliate with measures which hurt British businesses; many of my good friends are senior Ghanaian politicians, and they are all furious.  The rhetoric the British employ about transformation from colonial status to a modern partnership of equals is exposed for the tissue of lies it has always been.  This is a straightforward racist measure, aimed at securing the racist vote to the Tories.

Not does it make any sense.  If you are intending to enter the UK under false pretences, and have the intent illegally to settle and start a new life there, then £3,000 is scarcely a deterrent given the substantial economic gains you intend to make over the long period you intend to stay.  It will rather seem a good investment; people will find the money.  The people it will deter are those who never intended to overstay.  The extra cash upfront,  to the businessman for a business trip, for the student coming to study, for the tourist will drive them to go elsewhere, to the UK’s net loss.

More cruelly it will deter decent middle class people from coming to see grandchildren in the holidays, from going to the niece’s wedding,  from going to graduation.  Those things will become the prerogative of the wealthy, those with plenty of cash to spare.

This does nothing to deter illegal immigration.  It merely demonstrates populist racism, demonstrates contempt for some of the UK’s best-disposed friends, and demonstrates that the government thinks the right to travel is only for the rich.  It is contemptible.

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932 Comments

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  1. I’d like to see the statistics on over-stayers and the immigration budget on investigations into those people before I pass judgement. It is an interesting idea that those who post a £3000 bond should be dissuaded from overstaying if that was their intention. They’re going to stay anyway. And if they need to borrow the money to get into the UK, it might be a new racket waiting to start up with associated criminal activities. I don’t believe it is racist, but certainly questionable in its expected effectiveness in bringing overstaying under control. Thin end of the edge?

  2. Absolutely.
    Typical xenophobic racist crap which all parties seem to be engaging in, in an attempt to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

    Unfortunately, seeing this sort of bile expressed so often in the media and amongst politicians just fuels racism.

    We need to stand up to racism not pander to it.

  3. Its a tilt at UKIP voters.

    Which will make more sense after Farage gets smeared at a time of the spooks choosing.

    And where will those distraught UKIP voters scurry to then?

  4. How many votes will the Tories win from UKIP by this?

  5. Israeli settlers living in Occupied Palestine on the West Bank, incidentally, will still be allowed to enter the UK without any visa at all, despite membership of neither Commonwealth nor EU.

    There are no board of deputies tirelessly working on behalf of the Black citizenry of various origins in UK.

    The current racist policies are resultant of the calculations of the powers be, to dissipate the simmering anger and increasing resentment of the population in the face of iniquitous and criminal wealth distribution and even denied the opportunity to work, to earn a living. This coupled with taxation policies that favour the rich, and rob the poor to let the rich to keep even more of their ill gotten gains.

    The scapegoating of the Muslims, and immigrants is sure a fire way of directing the anger of the population away from the culprits whom have caused their untold misery, and onto a minority that have no political clout, or any kind of a board of deputies to influence the events in the way of selection of the would be carpetbaggers and their cohorts into the seats of power or placements on or near the public trough.

    This remittance of money along with increased costs of obtaining a visa is a measure to help to further dehumanize the “foreigners/immigrants/Muslims/Coloureds/Blacks”. This measure is a kind of a fine for being a foreigner and daring to arrive at any of the ports of Engerland.

  6. Flaming June

    26 Jun, 2013 - 3:42 pm

    It is both outrageous and fascist. I said that India and Nigeria had strongly objected. Has Ghana said anything?

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/the-man-who-didnt-disappoint/#comment-414647

    Someone in reply seemed to think it was a perfectly reasonable move!
    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/the-man-who-didnt-disappoint/#comment-414655

  7. It is similar to the not wholly nonsensical view that capitalism has endured through its demonstrably inherent and repeated catastrophic failure because it works synergistically with the worst but occasionally prevailing human traits of selfishness, greed and delusional conscience-less individualism. It is unquestionable that the Tories are racist to the core, but rarely do they dare say so; someone, as it’s likely not Cameron, is driving this lurch to the unspeakable right. I finger IDS as the head of the extremist faction presently in the driving seat of the Tory juggernaut, for his driven visceral demonisation, euthanising and zealous persecution of the sick and the disabled is an unmistakeable fascist trait identifiable as the signature of that and similar supremacist ideologies, even when not fully-formed. Their misreading of England is chillingly inept, based incestuously on a small sample comprising it seems, of a certain Sun Journos blog followers, and informed by their inane xenophobic ‘other’ bashing. It is representative democracy in reverse, the politicians attempting to transfer and ascribe their narrow, privileged, think the unthinkable, behind closed doors repulsive ideas to the population at large, again thinking of hitching an an easy ride along with an unspoken repressed trait of intrinsic human nature, as with capitalism’s inviolable preferment, a grossly simplistic pseudo-scientific self-serving mis-unserstanding of the human psyche.

    Tories (and the rest of the parties) to England: “I, and my friends, our sort, have never had it so good, so stfu you whingeing cnuts, else we’ll taser you, or worse!” Translating this into ‘foreign’ it could be written as: La vita è bella!

  8. Great post. Your last sentence sums it up. “It is contemptible.”

    Add to that that Theresa May has an anti-Islam aspect to her racism and you have a fully-rounded racist against UK citizens too. I’ve raised a FOI request upon the Home Office regarding Abu Qatada in which I have tried to get figures of those arrested under anti-terrorism acts. It contains the following questions:

    “4) Does the Home Office operate a system of racism (religionism if
    you like) against Islam?

    5) Can you tell me please how many people have been held in custody
    under the Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 and then the
    Protection of Terrorism Act 2005?

    6) How many of those held under the aforementioned acts were
    Muslim?

    7) How many of those held under the aforementioned acts were
    non-Muslim?”

    https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/abu_qatadas_crime_or_crimes#incoming-400219

    Somebody may wish to raise a similar FOI on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office on racist immigration measures. I feel I have been fighting racism for much of my life but only in the last twenty years has the British government in power itself been blatantly pro-racist. I believe it all boils down to these Acts which have taken away the basic tenet of English law habeas corpus.

  9. As we can be sure that many of those who pay the bond will stay, it’s a nice little – stress little – earner for a Chancellor who has long been devoid of ideas. Utterly pointless move, otherwise. Racist? In a sense, anyway. Poles, Ports and Baltics can stay as long as they like. We can be sure that the sharks who currently extort money from migrants to get them into the country, legally or otherwise, will be rubbing their fins at this one. And that the effectiveness of our legitimate border controls will not be increased one whit.

    I (notoriously) hold that there IS a problem. But this doesn’t address it.

  10. Soon we will be asked to pay a bond to post comments here.

  11. Komodo, “rubbing their fins”! I’d like to shake your claw for that one.

  12. Flaming June

    26 Jun, 2013 - 4:06 pm

    Mr Peter Jones attempts to put out the fire, and fails I should imagine.

    Please apply for your visas; nothing has changed – UK High C’ssioner assures
    From: Ghana Myjoyonline.com Malik Abass Daabu
    Published On: June 26, 2013, 9:36 GMT
    http://edition.myjoyonline.com/pages/news/201306/108527.php

    ~~

    How much does a ConDem visa cost these days?

  13. Disgusting that my in laws in tema will find it impossible to come visit the grandkids now. Vote YES in 2014 and break free from colonial rule.

  14. Flaming June

    26 Jun, 2013 - 4:18 pm

    After doing a lot of clicking round St Theresa’s annoying website, I found out the cost of the fees for the bit of paper to enter the UK for a visit.

    Visit

    Consulate rate of exchange:
    GBP1.00 = GHS3.20

    General visitors Visa application fee

    Short-term (up to 6 months, single or multiple entry)
    255
    General visitor
    Longer-term (valid for up to 2 years)
    890
    General visitor
    Longer-term (valid for up to 5 years)
    1635
    General visitor
    Longer-term (valid for up to 10 years)
    2360
    General visitor

    Business visitors Visa application fee
    Short-term (up to 6 months, single or multiple entry)
    255
    Business visitor
    Longer-term (valid for up to 2 years)
    890
    Business visitor
    Longer-term (valid for up to 5 years)
    1635
    Business visitor
    Longer-term (valid for up to 10 years)
    2360
    Business visitor
    Academic visitor (up to 12 months)
    255
    Business visitor
    Clinical attachment, dental observation or PLAB test
    255
    Business visitor
    Diplomatic courier
    255

    etc etc Entertainer, Family, Marriage, Medical Treatment

    http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/countries/ghana/fees2/?langname=UK English

  15. I regret to say that I agree – it does sound like an idiotic measure. I’m disappointed that Theresa May couldn’t see that the bond wouldn’t deter the people it was designed to keep out.

  16. Pb
    Lets get this straight
    The current ‘racist’ state(ment) of the brit est is …?!,”@

  17. Its a stupid idea that will only stop genuine visitors coming to this country, as previously mentioned it wont stop any illegal entry.
    .
    I believe that it is a measure to prevent health tourism, about which we seem to hear so much, but if we as a nation know the level of health tourism then we as a nation must also know when some one enters the NHS system that isnt entitled to do so, IF that is the intended purpose of this stupid idea then why not simply charge the relevant person when or if they use the NHS ?
    .
    Then again, if someone turns up at a hospital in the UK who needs medical assistance are we going to turn them away because they cant afford it ? In a lot of places in the world as a visitor you will get the bill, wether that is morally or ethically right is a different arguement.

    I remain unconvinced that this measure will do anything to resolve the alleged “problem” and is simply the Con/Dems playing to the nationalist instinct in order to win votes.

    Our border control is a mess, those in power should sort that first, but of course that would require some intelligent thinking and some intelligent discussion, none of which we can get out of the current crop of politicians.

  18. O/T Sorry – Michael Hastings crash – full interview with witness https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fweyFCFKcp0

    – Rough summary of witness account: Car apparently travelling as fast as it could possibly go; witness instantly assumed driver trying to kill himself; sparks/flames coming from rear near fuel tank as bounced off potholes/undulations on road at very high speed; no attempt to stop; hit some bigger dips in road; left the road; smashed into tree already partially on-fire;instantly exploded.

    Wikileaks twitter apparently confirmed that Hastings contacted Wikileaks lawyer Jennifer Robinson just a few hours before this crash.

  19. “Disgusting that my in laws in tema will find it impossible to come visit the grandkids now. Vote YES in 2014 and break free from colonial rule.”

    Show Westminster that the people are against Nationalist policies?

  20. Many of the immigration paradoxes are rooted in our membership of the European Union. We can’t control immigration properly until we leave it as we must accept anybody who enters from another EU state.

    Against this background our government must always be seen to be doing “something” so they pick on the easiest targets outside the EU.

    Craig is a supporter of the EU, if I recall correctly.

  21. I have it reliably that the sock-puppet Kibo Noh has now turned up as ‘David’. Expect a strong rebuttal. But, Jon, perhaps you can double-check this and confirm? This time more promptly and clearly?
    ——
    Has anybody considered that a lot of border-line (pun intended, if we are allowed to laugh here) applicants get visas refused and through this mechanism they may be able to prove their bonafide intentions?

    Just asking. This is not my holistic view for which i don’t have time atm.
    —–
    However, i would like to ask Mary did she have to put up a foot-long menu (again, pun intended) of visa fees. Couldn’t the point be made illustratively or by some other succinct manner, easier to digest?

  22. Jon, rude of me not to use the magic word. So, please and thank you for doing a difficult job, generally.

  23. In a world teeming with hundreds of millions (billions?) of poor people who seek a better life, you Britons have to make a decision to either let them in (in the millions) or not let them in (in the millions). Whether for migration or tourism, I do not care. If you won’t let them in, in such large numbers, then you have to determine a process by which you discriminate against those who are denied entry. How should that process work? And for whose benefit should entry to your country serve?

    If you have no problem with poorly educated, non-English speaking people who have learned to survive the hard way, migrating or visiting in their millions to your little island country, then open the doors and let them come, for they surely will – in their millions.

  24. Flaming June

    26 Jun, 2013 - 6:03 pm

    No sorry Villager the link would not extend to carry the details. I said the website was tricky. Can’t imagine people in other countries not speaking English dealing with it. What a petty bit of point scoring btw. What is your problem?

  25. Windy Miller

    26 Jun, 2013 - 6:13 pm

    It is truly appalling that Ghanaians (and others) are treated this way and I believe that this isn’t the first time where Ghanaians are concerned. Engineers with impeccable backgrounds have suffered in the past trying to come to the UK for major business deals between the UK – Ghana.What has Ghana done to the world except be perfect neighbours. What I find even more saddening is that when every I applied for Ghanaian Visa’s they were fast, polite and fairly priced, in fact 2 year multi-entry visa’s are the norm, and if they have expired we can even get a visa on Entry, such is the trust given by Ghana.

    I have read many things on these threads but this actually does make me feel embarrassed.

  26. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    26 Jun, 2013 - 6:23 pm

    @ Flaming June :

    I think Villager’s problem with your longish list of visa fees was the same problem as I had.

    It was that I did not quite understand – although I did try hard – the point you were trying to make by posting that longish list. For example, do you think they are too high (per se, or in comparison with what other countries – including some African ones- charge) and if so, what might be wrong in charginhg such high fees. Or then you might be thinking tht they are too low. Or perhaps you’re making some kind of unspoken link between those fees and the £3000?

    Would you please post again and enlighten us? In the interests of pursuing a civilised and enlightening dialogue and discussion of course, as requested by Jon.

    Thank you.

  27. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    26 Jun, 2013 - 6:34 pm

    Before reading further in this potentially very interesting thread and prhaps commenting further, could I ask – just to get basic positions clear – if there is anyone present who believes that there should be no immigration controls into the UK and/or that there is no problem of so-called over-staying?

    Thank you.

  28. It will damage (British) business and the arts. They – those from those countries who have difficulty getting visas – just go elsewhere. And it will make visiting for social/family events much more difficult. It’s already difficult; this will make it worse. It’ll also cause much resentment. Not good. Unwise. What’s new, though?

    We all know there are rackets. I don’t think this measure will stop those at all. It’ll just stop the honest people.

  29. O/T

    This petition already has above a million signatures in support of Edward Snowden and against Prism. Let’s make it two.

    https://secure.avaaz.org/en/stop_prism_global/?aCNkdbb

  30. I can see it from several sides.A Russian friend who has moved here to educate her daughter at a private school has been unable to renew her visa here.She was paying £3750 a amonth rent,school fees of about £5000 a term,plus living costs perhaps a total of £100k p.a.The money she brought in would have kept a few people in work.
    I also have a Portuguese friend whose English ex boyfriend brought her and her child to the UK so that the child could go to a free school and learn English.She has now split with the boyfriend and he has somehow arranged for her to have a flat and £850 housing benefit a month (plus of course Child benefit.She therefore costs the state approximately £25000 p.a.Assuming that the school costs are £5000 per term.
    This does’nt make sense does it?

  31. “This does’nt make sense does it?”

    It makes perfect sense.

    Britain and Portugal are both members of the EEC so someone from Portugal can come here and get the benefits of our education system while people in Britain can move to Portugal when they retire and take advantage of their climate and lower cost of living.

    We don’t have such an arrangement with Russia but it would be nice if one day the circumstances arose where we could.

  32. Well it seems like a pragmatic approach to me. You have to have a system in place to stop millions of people from poorer countries coming here, as they surely would, and understandably do. Unfortunately that system is based on ‘quis paget entrat’, but that’s just the way of the world. I really don’t think it has anything to do with “arrogant British disdain for these countries”, Craig.

  33. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    26 Jun, 2013 - 7:35 pm

    @ Fred :

    Geoffrey’s post does actually make more sense than you give him credit for, Fred.

    This is because it seems to me that his phrase “It doesn’t make sense, does it” is a comment not on the Portuguese side of his illustration only but on the totality of his illustration. He appears to be contrasting the Russian person who was refused a visa extension despite bringing money INTO the state with the Portuguese who who is allowed to stay (despite the family split-up) and is COSTING the state £25.000 a year.

    What is not clear from his post is whether he thinks that Russians should also be entitled to visit and stay without a visa (like EU citizens) or whether the arrangements in respect of EU nationals are a bad thing.

    But from a strictly economic standpoint, the example he gives does seem to point to a fairly nonsensical situation.

    Hope that helps, Fred.

  34. Habbabkuk, no, they live in la-la land where everything is the fault of the Bri’ish State.

    The obvious problem with Craig’s analysis is that Israeli settlers don’t, and wouldn’t want to, come here en masse, but that does n’t stop him from carrying on with the old racism crap.

  35. That was, Habbabkuk @6.34pm.

  36. Being a citizen of a member nation of the Commonwealth is not a good reason for privileged access to the UK. As we all know, the Commonwealth is a vestigial remnant of the empire which existed solely for the benefit of the UK. Rather than sever all links between former colonies, the Commonwealth provided a formal structure to pursue matters of common interest, not for the direct benefit of citizens but for the governments and large private interests of member nations.

    Looking at the nations that make up the Commonwealth, it’s hard to see what we have in common that should rationalise the extension of privileges to its citizens that cannot or should not be extended to citizens from non-Commonwealth nations. Why should a Pakistani get special treatment over a Japanese in their applications for a visa? Because one is a member of an exclusive club?

    Again, there has to be a reason for allowing entry to a country and it is common knowledge that all countries grant visas and charge fees according to their own migration policies, security assessments, cultural sensitivies and business objectives. Is this £3000 bond demand an inexplicably racist policy or a test of a new measure to manage an actual problem? Does a problem not exist? Let’s see some evidence.

  37. By the way, did you get your “Life is good” tagline from your LG “Life is Good” television set?

    That’s what it says when I turn on my propaganda box!

  38. well said Craig, what a contemptible racist little measure from Ms. May.
    Just imagine that there is a reciprocate measure introduced by these countries for British business and/or a levy on tourists.

    So if business wo/men and tourists/family get togethers, etc., have to pay £3000 per person to enter into a developing country, how much should theses developing countries charge business wo/men from a developed country to come into their country? twice as much? More?
    £10.000.

    Off course, Ghana, as a sign of friendship and cooperation, could extend the visa free entry of illegal West Bank settlers offered by Britain, to their own country, to soften the impact of their ‘fairness tax’.

  39. technicolour

    26 Jun, 2013 - 7:55 pm

    The price of everything, and the value of nothing. Touring musicians, actors, writers, visiting friends, families – unless they’re rich, they can stay away. What a sad, tight, joyless, uninspired, Philistinic miserablist little excuse of a place we become.

  40. “Geoffrey’s post does actually make more sense than you give him credit for, Fred.”

    I know, that’s what I said, he’s the one said it didn’t make sense.

    Someone from Britain can live in Portugal if they want to, someone from Portugal can live in Britain. Unfortunately that doesn’t apply to Russia.

    Personally I don’t much care how much money people have, if they are educated or what language they speak. Some of my best friends are poor uneducated people who can’t speak English.

  41. ” Just imagine that there is a reciprocate measure introduced by these countries for British business and/or a levy on tourists.”

    ” Touring musicians, actors, writers, visiting friends, families – unless they’re rich, they can stay away.”

    The naivety of some of the Murrayistas is truly breathtaking!

  42. Flaming June

    26 Jun, 2013 - 8:11 pm

    On my screen at 100% magnification, the list is about 7 ins long not 12 ins so you are exaggerating or perhaps you have enlarged text on yours.

    Work out the cost of visa for a Ghanaian whose minimum wage is 5.24 cedis a day when 5.24 cedis = £1.69 and you will see how exorbitant the price is.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

  43. Flaming June

    26 Jun, 2013 - 8:11 pm

    That was to Villager.

  44. Of course I was talking about the totality of the situation,thank you H. Fred,even,if I did go to live in Portugal they would’nt pay for my child’s education,and if you retired there and got seriously ill I’m pretty sure you’d be running back home to the NHS.
    I still do not think it makes sense not to take money from some foreigners who want to give it to us,and to give it to others for whom we can not reasonably be responsibe for,and for zero economic benefit to us.

  45. “Would you please post again and enlighten us? In the interests of pursuing a civilised and enlightening dialogue and discussion of course, as requested by Jon.”

    Since you are so keen for a discussion, I maybe should remind you again that it’s at least three times you said that you would respond to KOWN’s post about the accusation frequently made by yourself & one or two others, that there is a predominately ‘anti-West narrative’ here on this Board. I really think that as you often cite this as justification for the way you conduct yourself here, you should “man up” & engage, otherwise people will draw certain conclusions as to why you only want to debate with FJ/Mary.

    Here to help get you started is what KOWN posted;

    ““No, I genuinely don’t believe in the existence of the ‘anti-West narrative’ that you frequently inveigh against. I do think most posters on this thread are united by disgust and anger for much of what the West does, but that is not the same thing. As for the examples you cite – mistreatment of women in India, for example – I think the reason people don’t post on such issues is simply that these things are universally condemned and hardly worth the effort of pointing out on a forum where it can be tacitly assumed most people are on the same page. What gets people’s goat here, I submit without a trace of faux-naivety, is those instances where there is a chasm between the cruel things the west does and the way they are laundered and perfumed by such organs as the BBC.”

  46. Zero economic benefit to us … and other hastily posted unthoughtout responsive comments to previous postsz

  47. “Of course I was talking about the totality of the situation,thank you H. Fred,even,if I did go to live in Portugal they would’nt pay for my child’s education,and if you retired there and got seriously ill I’m pretty sure you’d be running back home to the NHS.
    I still do not think it makes sense not to take money from some foreigners who want to give it to us,and to give it to others for whom we can not reasonably be responsibe for,and for zero economic benefit to us.”

    As an EEC member you would be entitled to all the benefits the other residents of Portugal get which includes state education and health care.

    There are more things in life than money you know. Love of money is the root of all evil they say.

  48. He tried to but (ah butt) into what seemed to be essentially a private (if also public,as it were(catch 22ed al ee)) ‘conversation’ – but it seemed like as if a wasteof time, so he shut up(and changed identities, again).

  49. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    26 Jun, 2013 - 9:29 pm

    @ Flaming June

    “Work out the cost of visa for a Ghanaian whose minimum wage is 5.24 cedis a day when 5.24 cedis = £1.69 and you will see how exorbitant the price is.”
    ________

    I’ll consider this comment of yours which would addressed to Villager as also an answer to my request to you to explain why you posted the list of visa fees: you are saying that those fees are much too high.

    Firstly, thank you for engaging in discussion and let’s see if, the plunge taken, we can continue in a fruitful manner.

    If the minimum wage in Ghana is as low as that, it would obviously be quite difficult for someone on or only slightly above that wage to be able to afford a visa. But would you not then accept that it would be even more difficult for such a person to afford a return air ticket to the UK (air fares to Africa, from Europe, are excessively high by the way, as I’m sure Craig could confirm). If you accept the validity of this thought, then surely the question of the amount of the security deposit becomes rather academic, since such a person under such economic conditions would not be able to visit the UK anyway (and, by the by, would therefore not need a visa either)?

    If, on the other hand, the person is earning a ‘good’ salary by Ghanaian standards and able to afford the high airfare(s), then it would surely be the case that the visa fee and even the security deposit should not prove an insurmountable hurdle?

    It should be noted that the security deposit is refundable and I imagine that if the potential visitor cannot cough up the sum required from his own pocket ways and means are available or will be found for such a sum to to be made available to him (temporary personal loans from various sources, a bank bond, etc…)

    Lookinjg forward to reading you.

  50. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    26 Jun, 2013 - 9:35 pm

    I post this separately from my post to Flaming June so as not to create confusion which might stand in the way of a good discussion and fruitful interchange of ideas.

    Can somebody tell me if the £3000 security deposit will be required from nationals of all non-EU member states or only from certain countries? Judging from the comments on here it would appear to be the latter. Could someone please confirm and indicate which countries would fall under this requirement?

    Thank you in advance.

  51. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    26 Jun, 2013 - 9:51 pm

    Again, I post this separately as an aid to focussed discussion.

    As Craig knows full well (but perhaps some others do not), visa requirements work by nationality and not by place of residence. Craig also knows that citizens of Israel can travel to the UK and indeed to any other EU member state without a visa because Israel is not on the EU’s “common visa list” (itself part of the EU’s common visa régime), ie the list of countries whose nationals must have a visa to enter the space of the EU. The question of whether Israeli citizens are resident in pre-1967 Israel or in the occupied territories (or anywhere else for that matter) is irrelevant from a legal point of view in the matter of visas.

    BTW, I do hope that the use of Israel as an example will not have to unfortunate consequence of encouraging a flood of off-topic posts.

  52. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    26 Jun, 2013 - 9:55 pm

    @ Giles

    No, absolutely not; your post is the first I’ve heard of the LG Life is good TV. Is that the name of a TV model or is it LG’s general advertising slogan?

    My motto is firmly based on the film.

  53. Jives
    26 Jun, 2013 – 2:21 pm

    “Its a tilt at UKIP voters.”

    Yes, I agree Jives; the Tories are trying to out-UKIP UKIP before the next election.

    “Which will make more sense after Farage gets smeared at a time of the spooks choosing.”

    Cameron will have to move further to the right not only to outflank UKIP but to satisfy the unelected elite powers that really run the UK.

    If he doesn’t it will be he that gets smeared.

  54. OT Again

    Bluetooth range is normally stated as 100 metres max for a Class 1 Device. Potential “Class 0″ devices which use a more powerful transmitter and more sensitive receiver to increase the pair range to an existing class 1 Bluetooth (such as in a car) to about 1km, have been widely demonstrated and actually deployed in some applications (where legal).

    Not sure what the theoretical maximum is before timing might be a problem. I did see a claim it is about 10 miles in theory but short of reading the multiple Bluetooth levels specs I can’t confirm that.

    But it is definitely fairly easy, with readily available components, to Bluetooth pair with a car up to 1km away. With the very best equipment it might be quite a bit more than that.

    Well I thought it interesting anyway.

  55. “Can somebody tell me if the £3000 security deposit will be required from nationals of all non-EU member states or only from certain countries? ”

    This is a pilot scheme, starting in November, involving just the six countries listed by Craig. If successful it may well be extended to other nations.

    Labour twice proposed such a scheme but never implemented it. In the US it’s raised $18 million from over-stayers which suggests it’s more a sly tax on immigrants rather than a way of encouraging people not to stay.

  56. Flaming June
    26 Jun, 2013 – 3:42 pm

    Someone in reply seemed to think it was a perfectly reasonable move!

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/the-man-who-didnt-disappoint/#comment-414655

    It was he:

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    26 Jun, 2013 – 7:49 am

    “Foreigners of all kinds continue to be welcome but it is not unreasonable to expect them to respect the terms under which they were granted entry, is it?”

    “…to expect THEM (?)…to respect the terms under which they were granted entry…”

    THEM and US eh HB?

    What is unreasonable is to single out certain nationalities for disproportionate treatment in visa applications; that smacks of racism for political advantage.

  57. John Goss
    26 Jun, 2013 – 3:50 pm

    “I’ve raised a FOI request upon the Home Office regarding Abu Qatada in which I have tried to get figures of those arrested under anti-terrorism acts. It contains the following questions:”

    “Does the Home Office operate a system of racism (religionism if you like) against Islam?”

    Come on John that is a stupid question for a FOI request.

    Your other questions are ok.

  58. Jemand – Drone Target
    26 Jun, 2013 – 3:56 pm

    “Soon we will be asked to pay a bond to post comments here.”

    We do not accept Australian dollars.

  59. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    26 Jun, 2013 – 6:34 pm

    “Before reading further in this potentially very interesting thread and prhaps [sic] commenting further, could I ask – just to get basic positions clear – if there is anyone present who believes that there should be no immigration controls into the UK and/or that there is no problem of so-called over-staying?”

    A loaded question HB that deserves to be ignored.

    Deregulation of markets and the free movement of capital and labour is what the neo-liberal globalists want is it not?

    Paradoxically the neo-con neo-lib globalists want to control the free movement of labour (not capital); too many immigrants here not enough there; restrictions put in place here but not there.

    They want to have their cake and eat it.

  60. Everyone knows that all our economic problems are caused by these darkies and not the corrupt banksters and their lackies in politics and the press. Bravo to the Fuhrer on this one, and three cheers to Deputy Fuhrer Gideon for staying up late and working (instead of snorting coke with prostitues), he didn’t even have a proper dinner, now that’s what I call sacrifice. We should all be ashamed for not being like these supermen.

  61. Habbabkuk is a ‘professional’ poster, a kind of gatekeeper, herding the conversation away from any embarrassing and awkward truths and towards more ‘media friendly’ territory (i.e. the official line). A quick scan of his previous contributions will bear this out, he is at least consistent.

  62. “This is a pilot scheme, starting in November, involving just the six countries listed by Craig. If successful it may well be extended to other nations.”

    Please define ‘success’ in this context, and tell us how it will be measured.

  63. Just got in after a long day under the sky.
    Skipped through the thread and found a new arrival.

    @ David

    Welcome to Wonderland, where the real and surreal constantly mingle.

    You may be bemused by the reception you received at 5 46pm. Please don’t let it discourage you.

    The ecology of these threads is stranger than most mortals could have imagined, but there are rare treasures freely shared and a unique virtual community that lurches magnificently from highly informative through to insanely delusional at a pace that would stretch the understanding of a genius.

    You arrive in the middle of a bun-fight and have been mistaken for me, the (some say) disgraced Kibo and my former alter ego (sock-puppet) Sofia, the now retired fictional 13 and a half year old daughter of one of the blog’s most regular commenters.

    This accounts for the rather unexpected welcome you received:

    “Villager. 5 37pm

    I have it reliably that the sock-puppet Kibo Noh has now turned up as ‘David’. Expect a strong rebuttal. But, Jon, perhaps you can double-check this and confirm? This time more promptly and clearly?”

    If you wish to understand why you now stand accused of being me you will get a flavour of things on the “Preparing to Bomb Syria” and “Work for the UN” threads.

    I urge you not to take things too personally. Keep your passion. Challenge false narratives and try to avoid trading insults. Many of us are serial failures on that score, but take it from me, who has fallen into that hole enough times to speak from experience, life here improves when that stuff is left behind. Above all don’t take us all too seriously.

    Jon, the moderator has a difficult and largely thankless task, but aside from the occasional purge on our postings, he leaves the threads to evolve in all their anarchic spendour.

    I wish you well and look forward to more glimpses into the world from your perspective.

    I offer you two links which, if you have not already read them, may provide insight into some of what goes on here.

    Pages 8 and 9: http://www.scribd.com/doc/53789685/Hasbara-Handbook-Promoting-Israel-on-Campus

    and

    http://www.mepc.org/articles-commentary/speeches/hasbara-and-control-narrative-element-strategy

    Peace.

  64. We are charging £3,000- we hope you enjoy your
    stay. You are free to move around, please join all of us.
    As always respect our laws, fellow passengers are our responsibility.

    Deck chairs to be kept in current designated areas.

    Our Captain will be on hand shortly.

    HMS Socrates!

  65. Yuvall Eichhhhhmann

    27 Jun, 2013 - 3:38 am

  66. Yuval Eichhhhhhhhhhman

    27 Jun, 2013 - 4:10 am

    And don’t say it’s racist, either, it’s not! We need it to level the playing field. We’re all shooting blanks here. My little Yuvals can barely make it down the chute. Got carried away with the depleted uranium when we were exterminating Palestinians, and now we’re all dying out, http://www.palestinercs.org/en/adetails.php?aid=11
    At this rate we’re going to have to start proselytizing door-to-door like Jehovah’s Witnesses. When you shake a Palestinian silly it only lasts for a couple days, so it takes a lot of manpower to keep ‘em all brain-damaged. And those bulldozers don’t drive themselves! The winsome human-rights activists just keep coming no matter how flat you squash ‘em.

  67. According to Doug Scorgie (protected asset) the word ‘them’ is now connotative of xenophobia. Could he suggest another pluralistic pronoun to replace this offensive word so that we can refer to a specific group of people without offending his racial sensibilities?

    It’s a pity he also won’t accept Australian dollars. Euphemistically racist? Only he knows for certain.

  68. To be fair our language is use is always ambiguous.

    Much the same as history can be taken as symbolic.

    Where we are now spiritualy and demographicaly, should see us set precedents to past teachings to encompass all our elders teachings.

    Considering knowledge on a scientific basis to be limited to the lab, teachings should remain a useful tool to continue creativity.

    ‘Them’ being one.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah's_Ark

  69. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 7:50 am

    @ Doug Scorgie

    Still endeavouring to maintain civilised and enlightening discourse, I’d like to make a couple of points in reply to your two posts (above). BTW, I’d be very happy if other regular commenters, including of course Flaming June, were to join the discussion.

    re your post at 23h21 :

    1/. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to use the pronoun “them” to denote a different group of people already identified (Jemand makes the same point at 06h41) rather than to repeat a series of nouns once again. But if you can find a different way, do please suggest it and I’m sure it’ll be taken on board.

    2/. I doubt if this is a racist measure, although it is very probably an attempt to meet a popular perception from which UKIP is seeking to draw profit.

    The list of countries which will be affected at a first stage has been kindly supplied by Kempe. On the assumption that sensible govts take measures with the intention that thy should succeed, it would follow that the UK authorities have come to the conclusion that the 6 countries concerned are seen as a particular risk as far as over-staying is concerned. I could imagine that the language factor and the presence of substantial communities from those countries in the UK already (including, possibly, family members) lend weight to that assessment of the risk. So, to repeat, I don’t think racism is a direct factor here.

    re. your response at 00h19:

    With great respect, I’m rather doubtful about your reaction here, because accusing a question of being ‘loaded’ in order to avoid answering doesn’t really help to advance a discussion and understanding of a theme, does it?

    The two questions I asked seem rather fundamental to any discussion of the theme and no reasonable person should be reluctant to give an answer, surely? So I hope that you’ll think again about your refusal and (I hope with others) come back to those two questions.

    Thank you.

  70. Habbabkuk 7.50am.

    So if it’s not direct racism then might it be indirect racism aimed at the Little Englander demographic?

    Either way it leaves a sour taste and i can’t believe for a moment the Tory strategists would have somehow missed either potential dimension.

  71. Habbabkuk 7.59.

    Enough already of the teacher’s pet routine.

    Jon will mod as he sees fit i’ve no doubt.

    Did you used to grass other kids up at school for smoking behind the bike shed?

  72. Flaming June

    27 Jun, 2013 - 8:25 am

    In Amerika.

    Published on Tuesday, June 25, 2013 by The Progressive

    A Shameful Supreme Court Ruling on Voting Rights
    by Matthew Rothschild

    In its 5-4 decision along partisan lines, the conservative majority tossed out the Act’s insistence that nine mostly Southern states and a few other cities and counties with a history of racial discrimination must get pre-clearance from the federal government before changing their voting laws.

    Justice Roberts, writing for the majority, called the relevant section “unconstitutional” and the (Photo: SEIU International/ Flickr)calculus outdated.

    But what’s really unconstitutional is the way that many Republican-dominated states are already raising barriers to voting, barriers that are aimed at African Americans, other minorities, and other groups that vote disproportionately Democratic.

    [..]

    But much, much more seriously, the result will be an impairment of our democracy—and once again a racist one.

    http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/06/25-6

  73. “Bluetooth range is normally stated as 100 metres max for a Class 1 Device.”

    My transistor radio will pick up reception from a transmitter a hundred miles away.

    It doesn’t work at all in my car. That’s why you see all those cars with aerials on the outside of them for the radios.

  74. Doug Scorgie 26 June at 11.41 pm.

    ““Does the Home Office operate a system of racism (religionism if you like) against Islam?”

    It is only a stupid question insomuch as everybody knows the H.O. does operate a system of racism, but they are not going to admit it. The two following questions reveal the answer anyway. We have Acts to protect groups of people from Racism and legislation for Religion and Belief equality.

    http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/about-us/vision-and-mission/our-business-plan/religion-belief-equality/

    The Home Office and all other government departments should be free from discrimination against race and religion. I believe with this FOI and a similar one I raised with the same questions to the FCO regarding rendition and extradition the departments are going to have to change or someone with the right legal expertise will take them to task. Perhaps in their deportation of Trenton Oldfield they are trying to redress the imbalance so they can answer my question.

    http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/theresa-may-home-office-stop-the-deportation-of-trenton-oldfield?utm_campaign

  75. Don’t look at us, the undeserving rich not paying tax and destroying the welfare state. Instead, look there’s a darkie coming for your job!

  76. The question of bonds payable by Israelis, lack of, was raised in Craig’s post, so I assume it is completely legitimate to point to this:

    http://israel.usembassy.gov/consular/niv/nonimmigrant.html

    I wonder how many Israelis are currently working illegally in this country? Sightings of stalls selling Dead Sea products, eg, welcomed…

  77. I saw the irony in the juxtaposition of these two links on the BBC UK website on the day after Gideon’s AUSTERITY announcements.

    Payday loans in competition inquiry
    The Office of Fair Trading refers the payday lending industry to the competition authorities over “deep-rooted problems”.

    Queen’s income to rise by 5% in 2014
    The Queen will receive a 5% rise in her income next year after the Crown Estate, from which she is paid, reported an increase in its profits.

    Sky News is now full of ads for payday loans, Wonga, Quick Quid etc. and when the racing from Ascot was on Channel 4, you could not tell the difference between the live transmission and the ads from W Hill, Ladbrokes, Paddy Power, BetFred, Bet this, Bet that which kept appearing in the transmission. There were no actual ad breaks as such.

    One of the Cameron advisers recently left to join Wonga as their lobbyist. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/9642807/David-Camerons-senior-adviser-leaves-to-lobby-for-Wonga.html

    This morning on Radio 4 Today it was appalling to hear Vilderberger Balls (remember him on the stage at the Trafalgar Square Israel 60th birthday celebrations?) agreeing with Gideon’s plan to extend the waiting time to obtain benefit after becoming unemployed from 3 days to 7 days, It has been condemned by the TUC as cruel. Balls would not support Frances O’Grady. There is no Labour partei. We only have one partei now. Fascism in action.

    ‘Here’s Frances O’Grady, the TUC general secretary, on the SR.
    This is a toxic mix of bad economics, nasty politics and dishonest presentation.

    The last thing our struggling economy needs is further cuts to spending to try to close a deficit made worse by the Chancellor’s earlier cuts. When the medicine is not working and side effects are choking the patient you need a change in treatment not more of the same.

    Many services will be hard hit. Worst of all is a new attack on some of the most vulnerable in our society through the seven day wait and other conditions for social security payments. The chancellor may think attacks on welfare go down well with voters, but these will lead to parents not having enough cash to feed their children.’
    Guardian live blog yesterday

    PS Gideon was photographed with burger and chips and diet Coke two nights ago, whilst working on his plans. The photo op has backfired as it has been leaked that his burger was not the usual MacDonald’s £1.99 jobbie but one costing £10 from a local up market place near Whitehall.

    Austerity for some. They are all in IT together.

    PPS Nadine Dorries has announced that she will no longer claim for personal expenditure but will rely on her MP’s salary. This follows from the pressure she is under from her gains from Oz jungle rubbish. Doubtless she will continue to enjoy freebies such as trips to entities like Israel.

    Cylinder head gaskets are still blowing on the dregs of the Work for the UN thread!

  78. Ethnic cleansing of E. Jerusalem continues – just in time to scupper any idea of peace:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/26/us-palestinians-israel-settlements-idUSBRE95P18A20130626

    …as promised.

  79. Israel owns the Tory Party. Israel also owns large chunks of Labour and the LibDems, so you can say they own the UK parliament.

  80. Tech Savage at 12.44 a.m. “Watchman” I think rather than “Gatekeeper”.

  81. “Cylinder head gaskets are still blowing on the dregs of the Work for the UN thread!”

    Don’t be silly, Mary. There’s nobody blowing a gasket there at all.

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/work-for-the-un/comment-page-5/#comment-414809

  82. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/26/official-dutch-report-calls-for-break-with-uncritical-approach-to-israel.html

    The report’s analysis and policy recommendations were truly surprising, running counter to more than 40 years of uncritical pro-Israel policies of successive Dutch governments. Yet the international press did not make much of it. Now that the text has been translated and made available in English and French on the Council’s website, the important shift it represents should become more widely known.

    Hope springs eternal: here’s the report, to save you clicking –

    http://www.aiv-advies.nl/ContentSuite/upload/aiv/doc/webversie_AIV83_ENG%281%29.pdf

    No need to click on the “How to Spot A Sociopath” popup, either. Simply look to the left of this comment for his portrait.

  83. Giles
    26 Jun, 2013 – 8:06 pm

    “The naivety of some of the Murrayistas is truly breathtaking!”

    How so?

    You don’t explain.

  84. Sayanim ensemble
    27 Jun, 2013 – 7:23 am

    “…damned muzzies…” “…wog immigration…”

    I suggest this language should not be tolerated on this blog.

    I do not believe in 100% freedom of speech.

  85. Spending review was a manifestation that the Tory’s still target the poor and the elderly, well, not all.
    The richest woman on earth, who could pay off our national debt tomorrow, gets a 5% hike from the Crown estate.

    Now much of their profits come from us the taxpayer, via large wind power installations in the North sea, so we get fleeced properly, i.e. twice.

    Do explain Giles, when you say ‘“The naivety of some of the Murrayistas is truly breathtaking!”

    Do you mean Bill Murray?, Murray mints?, Andy Murray?

  86. Dreolin, that link is the most annoying I’ve clicked on. Audio adverts turn themselves on without any perceivable way of shutting them up.

    However all cars are probably being built with cyber-technology giving the manufacturers and their approved proxies the ability to override user capability, as with phones, computers &c and their service hosts. The message is “behave yourself and you will have no problems”. Those of us who choose to disobey can prepare for a bumpy ride. Or choose not to use the technology. I often leave my phone at home on purpose. I’m teaching myself to live without it. Whether that is how they killed Michael Hastings is impossible to know.

  87. John Goss 12.06pm,

    Interesting post John.

    I can foresee a time in the not too distant future where it will be a crime for a citizen not to carry a smartphone etc..

    They can certainly,at present,be used as listening,watching and locating devices.

    God knows what they’ll be like in the future.

  88. “that link is the most annoying I’ve clicked on. Audio adverts turn themselves on without any perceivable way of shutting them up.”

    Yes, John, but it’s happening all over the place. I click on a link and it turns out that the web page has a video embedded and it’s set to auto-run. So I can’t scroll down the page to read it until that’s finished loading. And then the plug-in decides to fail … It’s a pain in the neck. It seems that some sites have decided that folks just *can’t* read any more, so they have to be given a video or audio version of everything. (I just flick my sound off.)

    As for Michael Hastings, I was suspicious from the get go. It’s interesting to see someone like Richard Clark confirm that interference with his car was far from impossible. But of course any evidence will have been burned to a cinder.

  89. I don’t have an iPhone and I’m not getting one … and I leave my old Motorola at home most of the time.

  90. Jives, the prospect for future generations is frightening. And to think we were encouraged not to go to the Soviet Union because we might be followed by the KGB.

    I don’t have any loyalty cards either. If they want to know what I eat and drink they can ask me. And I’ll tell them. But taking that information without asking is a kind of theft.

  91. people, Adblocker works.

    doug: the repulsive language stuff is from someone already banned, i think we’ll find.

  92. And of course Dreolin and Jives, all SatNav systems have unique identification numbers which like computers, which is what they are, individual movements can be traced. There need to be new laws protecting consumers from this kind of intrusion.

  93. Re Michael Hastings,

    If there was manipulation over,say,WiFi or Bluetooth i’m sure the NSA and GCHQ will have pulled that out the ether to store away for ever…

    Complete capture of every transfer of a digital footprint is,after all,their remit.

  94. Adblocker works. Yes. Also try NoScript. The sayanim/eichmannn thing is probably a regurgitation of English Knight (etc) and as someone has already said, an attempt to discredit the blog. As much of its stuff is overtly and genuinely antisemitic, I’d say there’s a case for its deletion on sight.

  95. ‘For example, all of those countries supplied large numbers of men to British armed forces in two World Wars; with little resulting gratitude.’

    Err… except that, in the case of India, large numbers of their citizenry who initially took the King’s shilling subsequently switched sides and fought for the Greater East Asia Co Prosperity Sphere. Subhas Chandra Bose, their leader, was for a time more popular with radical Indian nationalists than the Mahatma.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Army

    Other than that, Jemand’s comment @7.45pm yesterday is pretty spot on.

  96. SatNavs: I read that they broadcast while you’re on the move, but they don’t store old data, i.e. previous journeys.

    Don’t have one and don’t want one.

    And I’ll be off Windoze by Christmas – I heard a rumour. :)

    I’m supposed to be tidying this room … heh …

  97. I made the puffed up Bilderberger Balls sound like a Wildebeest there. But apt, a herd animal which migrates to find better pastures.

    http://www.theyworkforyou.com/regmem/?p=11740
    The Co-Op are stupid enough to fund him. Price Waterhouse there too, the Folletts and on his most recenthttp://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/edward_balls/morley_and_outwood#register
    Bloomberg and the Limited Liability Partnership whatever that is.

    Partial to a bit of triple flipping
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5325590/Ed-Balls-and-Yvette-Cooper-flipped-homes-three-times-MPs-expenses.html

    and claiming for travel for their kids.
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/233033/Probe-into-Ed-Balls-14k-expenses-for-children

    There is no end to the Balls/Cooper troughing.

  98. The Church of England has no intention of following in the steps of Christ by casting the moneylernders out of the temple. They are buying the temples and the moneylenders.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1108747/church-of-england-backs-1bn-rbs-branches-bid

    Trust that Justin is enjoying his visit to the mother country on his ME tour and I wonder how the Rev Stephen Sizer is getting on. Details within this rant.

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/13462#.Ucwngq9wb4Y

  99. My transistor radio will pick up reception from a transmitter a hundred miles away.

    It doesn’t work at all in my car. That’s why you see all those cars with aerials on the outside of them for the radios.

    Not sure what point you are making here Fred. Well other than you have crappy radios or your personal car is a Faraday Cage like tank :-) Of course an external area is better but with many cars having the bluetooth antenna integrated into or close to the windscreen – reception is fine inside or outside the car.

    If your point was about range, I have no doubt that the NASA Deep Space Network dishes could pickup car bluetooth even if said car was on the moon. They couldn’t pair with it though no matter how much transmitter power they directed at it thanks to speed of light delays.

    The reason I am thinking bluetooth is that an incoming cellular connection will be logged by the network. Unless you have your own cellular base-station of course and can convince the car to roam onto your fake network but that would likely have half the neighborhood connecting to your base station which would also leave a trace. Built in car wifi could also be an attack possibility but cracking bluetooth is much easier.

  100. Jives, I certainly don’t believe they are recording all bluetooth and wifi everywhere all the time. Wide band recorders certainly exist but unless one was nearby (relatively) with a directional antenna the signal you were looking for would be buried by other closer signals on the same set of frequencies and there is a limit to the ability to dis-entangle that.

  101. I’ve deleted the “damned muzzies”/”wog immigration” post. I’d seen it earlier, though it was quite clear the phrases were used sarcastically. However I suspect it was from our old friend English Knight, who has a history of anti-Jewish racism, but doesn’t ever take part in discussions. Thus, it is gone.

  102. Anon,

    All digital transfers will be logged on your device and uploaded regularly to those interested i’d imagine.

    There’s always a footprint.

    Always.

  103. Jives, I certainly don’t believe they are recording all … wifi everywhere all the time

    That’s the job of the Google Streetcar, surely ;)

  104. Dreoilin,

    Yes it is interesting that a number of experts in the field are saying that they believe the Hastings crash is consistent with a cyber attack. I notice in the crash photos the car front wheel (the one you can see) appears to be pointing straight ahead. I’d be interested to know if steering lock was engaged.

    That said a clever attacker would use the car’s collision detect system to trigger steering unlock to remove the evidence as it crashed.

    I did read a comment from someone claiming to have worked on the design of even newer car collision avoidance systems. Said they had fun playing with the simulators where they created Kamikaze cars by having them slam into the detected obstacle. Easy to do on a real car fitted with that system they claimed.

    Personally I’d be tempted to install a physical cutoff switch if I owned one of these too clever for your own good cars.

    By the way if you still have steering control but no brakes and the car running flat out and you can’t get it out of gear, the advice seems to be throw the steering into full lock (left or right). It won’t be pleasant but chances are greater that you will live. So goes the claim anyway.

  105. Thanks for your explanation on the UN thread and for clearing up the mess above.

  106. Jives,

    Yes there would be a stored record in the car of the bluetooth pairing if it physically survived. However all evidence of this can be wiped in the huge amount of time you have (in computer terms to a real-time operating system) between initiating a crash and loss of function of the hardware. Other devices in the area are not likely to have any record of a pairing not involving them unless someone was actively sniffing.

    Jon,

    Yes, Google still thinks one of my wifi routers is 2 miles away as that’s where it happened to be at the time when the Google street car passed by.5

  107. Anon,

    I’m sure many interested agencies would have been most feverishly sniffing around Michael Hastings,and had been since he busted a couple of 4 Star Generals…

  108. @ Suhayl Saadi– 26 June 6.47PM re “We all know there are rackets. I don’t think this measure will stop those at all. It’ll just stop the honest people.”

    Quite so. The measure is a sign of an incompetent bureaucracy / government that has given up trying to control its own borders despite being an island. So it resorts to silly measures whose sole purpose is to con the public into believing that their government is on top of the situation. It may stop the honest people while making things easier for the rackets since the bureaucracy may want to believe that the Bond is the new control measure; thus giving them an excuse to be even more lethargic (and less accountable) than at present. If I were a businessman affected by this bond, I would be looking to take my business elsewhere.

  109. Do you mean Bill Murray?, Murray mints?, Andy Murray?

    No he means Douglas Murray.

    See what you made me do!

    Damn I have to wash my keyboard and screen for typing and printing the secret name of the Beelzebub.

  110. Jives,

    It is certainly possible that some records exist if he was a specific target for collection (which seems highly possible). It might even be possible his car mic was on and transmitting away over the cellular network at impact as such hacks have been demonstrated. Heck it is entirely theoretically possible to have multiple taps into the car at the same time over cell by different agencies – only limited by bandwidth.

    But still I think Bluetooth seems a good bet if you have to do it with a moving car and want the best chance of not getting caught.

  111. Anon,

    The people/agencies who did the hit-if it was a hit-are exactly the same people/agencies who get to do the investigation.

    Perfect cover for not getting caught as you can take the investigation in whichever direction yo want i.e. destroy all incrimiating evidence against yourself.

  112. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 2:42 pm

    @ Jives

    “Habbabkuk 7.50am.

    So if it’s not direct racism then might it be indirect racism aimed at the Little Englander demographic?

    Either way it leaves a sour taste and i can’t believe for a moment the Tory strategists would have somehow missed either potential dimension.”
    ___________

    Thank you for that. The sentence I used in my post was “I doubt if this is a racist measure..” and I intended it to cover both direct and indirect racism.

    Now, the govts’s intended measure may well leave a sour taste in the mouth of some and a sweet taste in the mouth of others, but I think it would be more constructive and in the spirit of this blog to focus discussion on the issue itself and leave questions of individual’s reactions on the side for the time being. I’m sure you would also thing in this spirit.

    I’ll post some more substantive comments later today to complement the substantive comments I’ve already made and I look forward to lots of interesting and informative participation from
    you and other members of this community.

    See you later!

  113. Jives,

    Well certainly elements connected with those doing the investigation could be responsible and may have opportunity but that tends to leave at least suspicions with local police and other investigating agents not connected with causing the crash, if they see evidence of a cover-up. Let’s see where this goes.

    Btw,

    I went back to check video filmed just after the crash. Witness Jose Rubalcava was asked within minutes of the crash to estimate the car’s speed when it first passed him. In the later interview I linked earlier he said “as fast as it could possibly go” (in Spanish). At the time he said (In English) “Over 100 mph” which is consistent with his later interview.

  114. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 2:56 pm

    Can I just say that I’m rather astonished, after the recent discussions about this blog and some of its commenters, to find that many of today’s comments are about issues which appear to have nothing to do with the theme of this thread : a lot about whether cars can be guided electronically by someone else and quite a lot of the UK govt’s latest financial and economic proposals and Israel , and then Ed Balls and his wife?

    I’m afraid that if this continues, there is a risk that this thread will be disrupted and derailed , and that would be a pity because the subject is interesting .Could I please ask those concerned to focus on the subject of this thread and avoid posting extraneous material?

    Thank you.

  115. doug scorgie

    27 Jun, 2013 - 3:06 pm

    Fred
    26 Jun, 2013 – 8:03 pm

    “Some of my best friends are poor uneducated people who can’t speak English.”

    Which languages do they speak and how do you communicate with them?

    Only asking.

  116. “Not sure what point you are making here Fred.”

    Easy, car bluetooth devices are not designed to be used at any distance and I don’t believe they can be.

    It would be a simple matter for a state security service or even a large security company to rig a car’s control units without any of the fantasy island stuff. They just look up the key’s pseudo random number seed off the database they no doubt have and plug into the diagnostics port.

  117. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 3:09 pm

    @ Doug Scorgie

    Grunts? :)

  118. doug scorgie

    27 Jun, 2013 - 3:16 pm

    O/T but news not covered by the UK media as far as I can find:

    NATO expansion?

    “Yesterday representatives of Colombia and the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) signed an agreement for cooperation and exchange of classified information, “good practice” in the “anti-terrorist” struggle, and against drug trafficking.”

    http://venezuelanalysis.com/

    Also see:

    http://www.theprisma.co.uk/2013/06/17/washington-and-its-offensive-to-reorganize-and-regain-its-backyard/

  119. Easy, car bluetooth devices are not designed to be used at any distance and I don’t believe they can be.

    Fred,

    Believe what you want but you are wrong.

    http://www.sans.edu/research/security-laboratory/article/bluetooth

    Dispelling Common Bluetooth Misconceptions

    Sep 19th, 2007
    Joshua Wright

    Misconception 1: “Bluetooth is a short-range technology”

    …By soldering on an external antenna cable, the range of a Bluetooth Class 1 dongle can be extended, allowing an attacker to connect to class 2 devices (intended for a range of 10 meters) from a range of over a mile.

    And car’s are generally even more powerful Class 1 not Class 2. It is no problem at all to bluetooth pair with a car a mile away. The maximum claim I have seen is 10 miles but I cannot verify that.

  120. What you need is a meaningful occupation*, Hubba – try this:

    http://www.staggeringbeauty.com/

    *not an illegal one, natch.

  121. Flaming June at 12.56 p.m. No doubt those links of yours account for why I never got a response from Lambeth Palace about Theresa May’s racism. On 15 March I wrote:

    “My church since 2002 has been All Saints, Small Heath. It is a good inner-city church set in a largely Muslim community. At Christmas the mosque opposite the church brought gifts (3 large boxes of Ferrero Rocher chocolates). It was almost as humbling as the stable itself. Our Home Secretary had recently extradited 5 Muslims to Supermax torture chambers in the US. What Theresa May espouses is not a Christian message yet she claims to be an Anglican. I know we should not judge. I know we should pray for our leaders. Unfortunately I have the same respect for her as Jesus had for the usurers at the temple who turned our father’s house into a den of thieves. Therefore I cannot stay silent over the wedge she is driving through our communities. With the deepest respect, neither should you.

    I have attacked her Christianity in my latest article for News Junkie Post.

    http://newsjunkiepost.com/2013/03/14/big-sister-theresa-may-and-the-rise-of-anti-islam-in-the-uk/

    And on 13 May I wrote even more strongly about the church’s tacit support for drones.

    “When I Google ‘Archbishop’ and ‘Drones’ Desmond Tutu keeps cropping up with a clear condemnation of the evil use of these devices (drones) to kill people thousands of miles away from the comfort and safety of an air-conditioned office, but there appears to be no message from Lambeth Palace, from the Anglican church, or from yourself. As an Anglican myself (All Saints, Small Heath, Birmingham) I should like to know what my church’s views are in a clear unequivocal statement. It is inconceivable that a Christian church condones the use of drones, but I live in a world which never ceases to surprise me. If there is no statement from Lambeth Palace I can only assume that the silence gives tacit support for these killing machines. Silence is complicity. Jesus stopped the stoning of a woman caught in the act of adultery with a clear statement. You are his disciple. I call on you to speak in similarly Christian terms.

    I realise you cannot answer every question raised by every person who contacts you, but your office has yet to answer one of my emails and this is a matter of life and death.”

    I think in my heart I am a Quaker.

  122. And car’s are generally even more powerful Class 1 not Class 2. It is no problem at all to bluetooth pair with a car a mile away. The maximum claim I have seen is 10 miles but I cannot verify that.

    Why 10 miles? All is needed is a model airplane as a relay station.

    Authorities said in a statement that the investigation is focusing on two men of Tunisian origin. They are suspected of having sought to acquire information and equipment necessary to carry out “radical Islamist explosive attacks using remote controlled airplanes,”

    German Police Shoot Down Model Plane Terror Plot

    Does this mean soon all the toy shops and craft shops will have a security guard frisking the punters, and checking their carrier bags and interrogating them;

    Why do they need a model airplane?

    Do you intend to loan the model airplane to anyone?

    Do you know any Muslims?

    Have you ever been a Muslim, or are you intending to become a Muslim?

    McCarthy does not get a look in.

  123. Flaming June

    27 Jun, 2013 - 4:01 pm

    Welcome to the world and South Africa Mr President.

    South Africa High Court War Crimes Case against US President Barack Obama
    By Global Research News
    Global Research, June 27, 2013

    Lawyers will continue to pursue the case against Obama in the courts

    The Muslim Lawyers Association (MLA) brought an application to court on Tuesday, 25 June 2013, to charge US President Barack Obama with a number of crimes, before he enters South Africa on Friday, 28 June 2013.

    /..

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/south-africa-high-court-war-crimes-case-against-us-president-barack-obama/5340594

  124. Flaming June

    27 Jun, 2013 - 4:16 pm

    It will make a change if Obama follows ‘legal channels’ in the light of Kill By Drone policy.

    This is on his hunt for Edward Snowden.

    Obama refuses to barter for Edward Snowden
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23084166

    ‘Speaking on a visit to the West African nation of Senegal, Mr Obama also said the case would be dealt with through routine legal channels.’

    I did not know you could barter for human bodies. I thought it applied to goods and inanimate objects, namely:

    Definition of BARTER
    intransitive verb
    : to trade by exchanging one commodity for another

    transitive verb
    : to trade or exchange by or as if by bartering .

  125. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 4:18 pm

    I don’t know what to make of Richard Clarke. That statement was on Debka and Alex Jones, when i saw it yesterday. I can’t tell what role he is playing; middleman?

    General Alexander invoked MacArthur the other day and I wonder wtf he was trying to say.

    A civilian controlled (heh, theoretically) military sticks in a lot of throats. Petraeus, McChrystal?

  126. Ben,

    This is the original source for the Clarke quote although you’ve probably already seen it – http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/24/michael-hastings-car-hacked_n_3492339.html

    “I’m not a conspiracy guy. In fact, I’ve spent most of my life knocking down conspiracy theories,” said Clarke, who ran afoul of the second Bush administration when he criticized the decision to invade Iraq after 9/11. “But my rule has always been you don’t knock down a conspiracy theory until you can prove it [wrong]. And in the case of Michael Hastings, what evidence is available publicly is consistent with a car cyber attack. And the problem with that is you can’t prove it.”

    Clarke said the Los Angeles Police Department likely wouldn’t have the expertise to trace such an attack. “I think you’d probably need the very best of the U.S. government intelligence or law enforcement officials to discover it.”

  127. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 4:27 pm

    I saw something wrt Elise Jordan, Hastings widow yesterday but it was a cryptic few words.

    Then there’s this; http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/06/25/wife-hastings-wasnt-reporting-on-jill-kelley/

    She’s a journalist, and I thought she would be out front on the COD and his whereabouts that morning. Weird.

  128. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 4:35 pm

    Yes, Anon. Salon, a big Obot hangout, is dissing the theory, but with the same available facts.

    It’s a trust issue, or anti-conspiracy, which is a kind of reverse conspiracy theory.

    http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=richard+clarke+books&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

    Clarke may just be previewing and promoting a new book.

  129. Passerby,

    Some of the increasingly affordable multi rotor things can autonomously hold station with GPS, act as a relay and downlink live video. Will fly back to home base on its own if it has to.

    You can order for immediate delivery.

  130. Flaming June

    27 Jun, 2013 - 4:40 pm

    This is ‘leafy Surrey’ in Poison Gove’s constituency, Quite telling? But of course, we are all IT together.

    http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/s/2135671_citizens_advice_bureau_sees_big_rise_in_benefit_calls

    Gove’s constituency is next to Hunt’s which is next to Milton’s, then Raab and Lord. In fact the whole of Surrey is Tory controlled.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Parliamentary_constituencies_in_Surrey

    The Guildford Tories are being coy about their dinner for Liam Fox the other night. No photos on their website and no press report. Are they ashamed to admit they invited him to be a guest speaker?

  131. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 4:42 pm

    After SCOTUS stole the last 3 days headlines with VRA shutdown and ending DOMA, the continental media and bloggers are all about that.

    All politics is local.

    Where are the hard-core investigatory journalists/bloggers?

    ‘Out to lunch’ is the sign on the door, but in the backroom, masturbatory exercises reign.

  132. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 4:43 pm

    This kind of investigation can’t be conducted from the keyboard.

    Some genuine shoe-leather needs to be sacrificed.

  133. Ben,

    Yes.Interesting times indeed when a former anti-terrorist tsar begins to sound like a tin-foil hat alumni…

    Many formerly immobile positions are being re-defined and difficult choices are being made.

    Divisions are growing and omerta beginning to crack amongst the 33rd degree crew.

    This has got a long way to run yet…

  134. Ben 4.42pm,

    Any chance you can decrypt those US acronyms for us limeys?

    Cheers :.)

  135. Ben,

    It’s OK no need…i’ve found them out.

    Thanks.

  136. Bozo Agonistes

    27 Jun, 2013 - 5:19 pm

    Ha ha, legal channels. Snowden’s perils-of-Pauline plotline is holding the world’s attention nicely as the humiliation mounts for the Alexander junta and its cringing rubber-stamp legislature.

    Putin’s practically strangling with suppressed delight at being able to uphold Helsinki Accords Basket III principles on freedom of movement against the US police state. The US beat Russia over the head with Basket III for more than a decade.

    And as for Ecuador, “Ecuador has signed all the human rights instruments of the Hemisphere and is fully committed to the rule of law and the fundamental principles of international law.” Them’s fightin’ words for a state like the US that shits on the CCPR, runs from the CESCR, has disgraced the OAS nearly out of existence, and resorted to neo-Soviet obstruction to escape the Rome Statute. US government Big Shots – all they got is the threat of economic sanctions that are themselves illegal under UN Charter Articles 33 and 41.

    China, Hongkong, Venezuela, Germany, and Cuba got their licks in, variously citing US violations of the law on privacy, torture, freedom of information, and foreign interference. It’s almost cruel, like baiting a chained, toothless, declawed bear.

    Impotent. Discredited. A laughingstock. USA! USA! USA!

  137. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 5:33 pm

    Jives; I’m not completely discounting the sincerity of Clarke. Snowden was in the fold, and saw the light emanating from a tiny crack. It’s just difficult to assign credibility with so many players whose heart condition is speculative. Motive is a hard one to call with such little info.

    Bozo; Putin is having a grand time with it, for sure. He’s the godfather of his criminal state, and he’s liking the company of the US.

  138. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 5:36 pm

    I’m sure Greenwald is taking steps. This cautionary tale is the MO for repression.
    (JIves; MO-method of operation :)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb

  139. This just to show what one has to put up with in Norfolk. This is the non football section of the Pink Un forum, a hotbed of Canary fans who now and then get bored stiff over politics.

    This from JG on the subject of Edward Snowden and the NSA/GCHQ spying on us issue. we clash over issues such as immigration and religion and and….often, JG thinks that he’s the police man on the Pink’Un. His rider is priceless.

    “I have been thinking about all this Big Brother malarky and have come to the conclusion that it’s a good thing.

    I believe that everyone should be micro-chipped as it has huge advantages;

    If you are in an accident and have no ID on you the paramedics just need to scan your microchip to retrieve your medical details from the NHS database.

    If the microchips are linked into Satellite trackers crime would be reduced overnight and all those illegal immigrants would not be able to move without being rounded up and deported.

    I don’t know why the Government does not push ahead with this technology, as a law-abiding citizen I’m all for it.
    ——————————————————-
    Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design.

    http://services.pinkun.com/forums/pinkun/cs/forums/2/2932481/ShowPost.aspx#2932481

  140. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 6:09 pm

    Technically they weren’t lying (Clapper et al) when they protested ‘We’re not listening to your phone calls or reading all your emails”

    Present tense, notwithstanidng.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/27/nsa-data-mining-authorised-obama

    “”The internet metadata collection program authorized by the Fisa court was discontinued in 2011 for operational and resource reasons and has not been restarted,” Shawn Turner, the Obama administration’s director of communications for National Intelligence, said in a statement to the Guardian.”

  141. “Believe what you want but you are wrong.”

    Come back when you’ve actually done it and tell me that.

    Come back when you have successfully hacked into a car’s bluetooth from a mile away and changed the firmware on the ecu and abs.

  142. “This does nothing to deter illegal immigration. It merely demonstrates populist racism, demonstrates contempt for some of the UK’s best-disposed friends, and demonstrates that the government thinks the right to travel is only for the rich. It is contemptible.”

    I think that’s exactly spot on all those accounts ; to single out people from only certain countries is basic racial profiling, essentially inherent discrimination, and contra to the principle of universal human rights and freedoms, which is what we as a country agreed to abide by when we voted for adoption of “The Universal Declaration” at the UN.

  143. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 6:17 pm

    Excellent news in that the judge at the Oxford Crown Court trial of the 5 men (reported as being of “Pakistani and North African heritage” has just sentenced the individuals concerned to life sentences for the grooming, beating, raping and trafficking of a number of young, vulnerable girls (some as young as 12). Subject to correction, I’m sure that all readers will also be delighted.

    It might be of interest to note that had these offences occurred in the countries of the “heritage” of the convicted persons, they would now be preparing to face their maker.

  144. “Excellent news in that the judge at the Oxford Crown Court trial of the 5 men (reported as being of “Pakistani and North African heritage” has just sentenced the individuals concerned to life sentences for the grooming, beating, raping and trafficking of a number of young, vulnerable girls (some as young as 12). Subject to correction, I’m sure that all readers will also be delighted.”

    That is good news.

    Any word on the Ian Brady tribunal yet?

  145. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 6:28 pm

    Sexual proclivities are the provenance of the security services. Greenwald has already addressed.

    They have the access and the funding to do the dirt.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/greenwald-reporter-broke-nsa-story-lawyer-sued-porn-biz-article-1.1383448

  146. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 6:34 pm

    Matt Taibbi; Another proud member of the GONZO tradition.

    “So New York Times Dealbook writer Andrew Ross Sorkin has apologized to journalist Glenn Greenwald for saying he’d “almost arrest” him, for his supposed aid and comfort of NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden. “I veered into hyperbole,” was Sorkin’s explanation.”

    Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/hey-msm-all-journalism-is-advocacy-journalism-20130627#ixzz2XRHgFNPd
    Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook

  147. “That is good news.

    Any word on the Ian Brady tribunal yet?”

    No, but I did see this piece of other good news;

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23064355

  148. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 6:50 pm

    The Guardian seems to be all in with Greenwald…huzzah !

    Warning; 51 page PDF-(those with vision issues beware)

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/jun/27/nsa-inspector-general-report-document-data-collection

  149. Bozo crowned with thorns

    27 Jun, 2013 - 6:52 pm

    and the great thing about Putin, BF, as Russia relinquished superpower status it embraced great-power status, and now Putin might be the world’s leading advocate of humanitarian law among heads of state. Russia has been reading the UN Charter to the USA since the Seventies, and now again they’re on the same page as the victims of US aggression.

    Russia’s criminal as in corrupt, sure, same as USA USA USA. But much of the repression Putin gets attacked for in the NATO bloc press is an unresolved tension about foreign support of rights defenders. On the one hand, freedom of association and information can’t stop at the border. On the other hand, distortion of rights and organized vilification are recognized forms of foreign interference (in A/RES/36/103), and the US government uses them to weaponize foreign NGOs. So the principles on rights defenders take no position on foreign support. Take Pussy Riot’s US support: is it principled affiliation of civil society and the public at large, or state dirty tricks as a pretext for great-power confrontation? It’s a longstanding question: CIA and DIA were up Scharansky’s butt.

  150. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 6:59 pm

    ” Take Pussy Riot’s US support: is it principled affiliation of civil society and the public at large, or state dirty tricks as a pretext for great-power confrontation?”

    Yes, there was a lot of high-fives in the US over Pussy Riot, and for a lot of the wrong reasons, as you imply.

    Violating the sanctity of the Orthodox church was as bold and ‘in your face’ non-violent resistance as you can get. But I think the religious fervor was a cover for Putin’s embarrassment and THAT was the reason for detention.

  151. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 7:01 pm

    @ Macky (18h47)

    “No, but I did see this piece of other good news;

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23064355
    ______________

    I’m sure you’ll be pleased to hear that I entirely agree. It is always good when undesirables are kept out of the country, be they illegal immigrants or Zionist hate-mongers.

  152. “No, but I did see this piece of other good news;”

    It’s good news week, I see the half brother of a prominent Tory MP has just been nabbed for child sex abuse.

    http://davidhencke.wordpress.com/2013/06/26/exclusive-child-sex-abuse-police-arrest-half-brother-of-prominent-tory-mp/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

  153. Yuval Eichhhhhhhhhmann

    27 Jun, 2013 - 7:06 pm

  154. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 7:17 pm

    @ Macky

    Welcome back, Macky, and thank you for posting on-topic again at 18h13.

    “..is contra the principle of universal human rights and freedoms, which is what we as a country agreed to abide by when we voted for adoption of “The Universal Declaration” at the UN.”

    If what you say is correct then this would indeed be extremely disturbing.

    So disturbing that I’m rather surprised that Craig, who’s no novice in matters of international law, didn’t pick up on this in his introductory post(or subsequently).

    Perhaps it was just an oversight on his part, or perhaps you are more of an expert than he!

    For us non-experts in international law (and indeed for Craig), would you mind just to expand a little bit on this and tell us which provisions of the Universal Declaration on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms would be violated by the government’s proposed measures against over-staying?

    Thank you again, and I look forward to your info.

  155. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 7:23 pm

    @ Jives

    “You know exactly what im talking about”
    ____________

    No, I honestly don’t. Please do set out what you are talking about. Don’t be shy!

    I just thought that everyone would be delighted that vicious paedophiles had got their just desserts. Surely I’m not mistaken? Aren’t you also delighted, personally?

  156. Flaming June

    27 Jun, 2013 - 7:46 pm

    Walsall arrest on mosque bomb. It was referred to as an explosive device previously.

    Man, 75, arrested over Walsall mosque bomb
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-23087162

  157. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 7:51 pm

  158. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 8:02 pm

    @ Jives

    I really think it would be better if you followed Jon’s good words of advice (or warning) and dropped the insults and intemperate language. They do nothing for your image and neither do they add lustre to this blog. Aren’t you worried about getting deleted?

    BTW, you still haven’t come out and said what exactly what you mean. How am I using “horrific child abuse as leverage”? Leverage for or against what? I really don’t know why you’re being so cryptic.

    [Mod: refers to posts that are now deleted]

  159. Flaming June

    27 Jun, 2013 - 8:05 pm

    Well said UKDave on Medialens.

    BBC Question time last week
    Posted by UKdave on June 27, 2013, 4:12 pm

    Here is a letter I sent to Guardian about BBC failure to ask Melanie Phillips on Question Time what she meant by ” Neutralising Iran”

    Dear Editor,

    Your reporter, Michael White, does a grave disservice to Boris Johnson in his review of last night’s Question Time [“Russell rules Question Timey-wime”]. He says that Boris made a remark about ‘neutralising Iran’ whereas, to my recollection, it was the Zionist ‘jihadist’, cuddly Melanie Phillips, who made that sinister and outrageous remark. However, none of the participants, including the chair David Dimbleby, asked her to explain exactly what she meant by this suggestion. Given her record as an ultra-uncritical supporter of Israel a reasonable bystander might infer that she meant the current Israeli policy of bombing Iran back to the Stone Age if it does not immediately cease the perfectly legal activity of enriching uranium.

    The BBC is a public broadcaster and so it has a duty to critically question remarks made on air that could be interpreted as an incitement to war-criminality on a colossal scale. Phillips may be able to get away with making such remarks in the pages of Daily Mail, a paper that supported Mosley’s fascists in 1930s, but not surely on BBC Television.

    In contrast to the hysterical paranoia of Melanie Phillips over Iran Boris Johnson was eminently sensible in questioning the validity and efficacy of the underlying motive of the West (i.e. US-Israel) for regime change in Iran. He also, if in muted tones, disagreed with Cameron’s policy on arming the so-called ‘rebels’ in Syria, the majority of whom are now Islamists of various stripes. So Michael White is also wrong to say that he was “loyal-ish to Cameron”.

    Finally, White makes no mention in his review of the most worrying exchange on Question Time. A member of the audience, who said he was a paid up Lib-Dem member, repeated asked Lib-Dem cabinet minister Ed Davey for assurances that no weapons would be supplied to the Syrian rebels without a vote in Parliament. He received no such assurance; rather he was told, each time he asked, that there would 21 June 2013 be a vote in Parliament if ‘military action’ was proposed- not the same thing at all.

    Yours sincerely

  160. “It might be of interest to note that had these offences occurred in the countries of the “heritage” of the convicted persons, they would now be preparing to face their maker. ”

    Unfortunately so would the victims, or they might just get a 100 lashes if the judge was feeling lenient.

  161. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 8:18 pm

    @ Fred (18h25)

    “Any word on the Ian Brady tribunal yet?”

    It appears that my brief and polite reply to your question has already been deleted, so I’ll just give you the gist of it, which was
    1/. I haven’t heard anything
    2/. Try asking Flaming June as she always follows the news very closely.

    NOTE TO MODERATOR

    Why do you delete my post and leave the 3 posts from Jives, which are full of personal insults? Does Flaming June get special treatment from you?

  162. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 8:21 pm

    @ Kempe

    I fear you might be right.

    I should have made myself clearer by writing what I had originally meant to but then didn’t…

  163. doug scorgie

    27 Jun, 2013 - 8:44 pm

    Nevermind
    27 Jun, 2013 – 4:43 pm

    “This man is as dangerous as Pol Pot, not to name the usual he wants to erase Gaza.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/lieberman-israel-needs-to-conquer-and-thoroughly-cleanse-gaza-strip-8671919.html

    It has been my view for many years that once Israel has overrun the West Bank and re-named it Judea and Samaria they will come back for Gaza.

    The disengagement plan was only intended to be temporary.

  164. Did anyone see this article in today’s Mail? I confess I don’t normally read it.

    Has Habbabkuk seen it?

    Digressing from the topic at hand, especially onto sensitive topics. Not necessarily overtly argumentative, this tactic frustrates its targets with its pointlessness and circularity. Digression onto sensitive topics triggers the strongest reactions.

    Hypocriticising, especially for a fault that the critic then displays him/herself. A simple tactic, often this is pedantic criticism of grammar, spelling or punctuation in a post which itself contains proof-reading errors to provoke exasperated responses from others.

    Antipathising, by taking up an alienating position by asking pseudo-naive questions, for example. This tactic is heavily reliant on deceiving the group it is aimed at and covertly manipulates egos, sensitivities, morals and feelings of guilt, usually to trigger emotional responses. It can also create moral dilemmas.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2349518/Boredom-blame-cyberbullying-incidents-claims-expert-whos-identified-key-tactics-trolls.html

  165. @Jives, re “Trying to stir the pot here by using horrific child abuse as leverage is beneath contempt”

    He has form on this score;

    “Would anyone, I wonder, share my view that the perpetrators should, after they have served their sentences, be deported to the country(countries) whence they or their forefathers came so that they could practice their bestial predilections on young girls of their own country and religion?”

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/01/uzbek-cotton-slavery-campaign/#comment-389572

    As does Villager, who gave this early warnning of an affinity to Habby Clown;

    “Macky, i think Habbab has a point about ” it was those gangs who were in fact behaving in a racist manner by targetting – exclusively – viulnerable girls whom they considered to be white khaffar trash.”

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/01/uzbek-cotton-slavery-campaign/comment-page-3/#comment-390339

  166. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version) 27 Jun, 2013 – 6:59 pm
    “Yes, there was a lot of high-fives in the US over Pussy Riot, and for a lot of the wrong reasons…”

    From hollywood to the nme, the clamour to support Pussy Riot was an ugly gaggle of publicity hungry hypocrits. Pussy Riot’s radical politics were not discussed. Just lots of preening, vain people bemoaning the loss of an artistic freedom they do not exercise themselves.

    Here, there was even a “debate” in a houses of parliament room, chaired by minor musician Jon Robb and sponsored by labour mp Kerry McCarthy. This forum, condemning the lack of free speech in Russia, was held the same day Trenton Oldfield was imprisoned for his boat race demonstration. Oldfield was not mentioned and the one attempt to broaden the discussion to include UK issues was refused. Of course you won’t hear that on punknews.

    http://www.punknews.org/article/49385/pussy-riot-event-held-at-uks-houses-of-parliament

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/oct/19/boat-race-protester-trenton-oldfield-jailed

  167. Habbabkuk, given that we probably need to reduce some of the intemperate exchanges here, an implication from you that some regulars on this board might be in favour of rape or child abuse isn’t helpful. Do discuss the topic, but without the snark please.

    I should also be grateful if you would reduce the number of times you try to engage discussion with Flaming June. She has made it perfectly clear she does not wish to interact with you, as is her right. I deleted your last contribution since you made another sideways dig at her. If you haven’t seen it, I have added some personal thoughts on moderation on the UN thread (if you wish to discuss, please do so there).

    Jives and others, please don’t rise to the bait. Not posting at all is sometimes a better response.

  168. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 9:34 pm

    Phil; Oldfield is a dissident, for sure. Putin made an appearance at the church and took communion to give credence to the ‘blasphemy’ charges.

    To be fair to the public who seem to have swallowed the flounder, they are unfamiliar with performance art, or public displays of dissidence.

  169. Flaming June

    27 Jun, 2013 - 9:42 pm

    The BBC are employing this creature

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tara_McKelvey

    to write this jeering mocking piece on Edward Snowden.

    Snowden case: 10 things to pack when you are a fugitive
    By Tara McKelvey
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23035469 – BBC News Magazine

    Her twitter announces it and also confirms that she is one and the same in the Wikipedia entry.

    [Mod: link fixed]

  170. I read on the Landdestroyer blog that Pussy Riot were financed from the USA – National Endowment for Democracy. I also read that they have never either written or recorded any songs.

  171. Mary,

    That link http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23035469 – BBC News Magazine says 404 – page not found.

    [Mod: link fixed, thanks Dreoilin]

  172. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 9:49 pm

    And their music truly sucks, Dreoilin. That’s performance art for you; impromptu and totally unrehearsed, but their effectiveness is not daunted.

  173. I read about some of their exploits, Ben. And I was pretty disgusted. I haven’t heard any of their music, so I can’t really comment. I’ll take your word for it!

  174. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 9:55 pm

    Their goal is to shake things up, Dreoilin. I think the public orgies went too far, but then i remember Hippies and public sex, which was a statement of those times. Sometimes you have to break on through to the other side.

  175. Thanks for the link, Kempe.

    Dear god is right … You wouldn’t travel to see them, would you.

    Got to go, g’night all

  176. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 10:05 pm

    @ Kempe (21h51)

    Isn’t it wonderful what scientists can get robots to do? Why, they almost look human!

  177. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 10:25 pm

    @ Jon

    1/. Thank you for deleting the abusive posts directed against me. I still think, however, that it would be good if you were to leave the name of the poster and then wrote “deleted” (and the reason) next to it. In this example, it would serve to remind readers that there were THREE such posts and that they were ABUSIVE. Readers – especially new readers – should know who is being abusive and how often, don’t you think?

    2/. You misunderstand the thrust of my post on the “Oxford 5″, which was not to hint that some other posters were in favour of child abuse/rape but to draw attention to what might seem to be a certain one-sidedness in their concern about children – loud when it’s Muslim Afghan children accidently killed by an American drone but silence when it’s British kids deliberately misused and tortured by Muslims. Perhaps I was too sibtle and should have said this directly.

    3/. Re Flaming June : since several commenters have accused me of never wanting to discuss but only to disrupt, I’m anxious that they should respond to some discussion-friendly points I’ve made. I’m naturally very keen that Flaming June, who is one of my chief accusers (dozens of accusations that I’m a troll), should show that she is actually on this blog to discuss.

    4/. Yes, I have seen your post on the other thread. I may come back to you on it (there, as you suggest).

    Best!

  178. Dreoilin 27 Jun, 2013 – 9:45 pm
    “I read on the Landdestroyer blog that Pussy Riot were financed from the USA – National Endowment for Democracy. I also read that they have never either written or recorded any songs.”

    Well I’m sure the financing accusation is made and cannot be proved either way. If true it was a sweet cheap deal for the cia. These people lived as outcasts. Personally I think the convincingly real radical background of members of the collective challenges this rumour. I have seen nothing that suggests these backgrounds are invented. But I would be interested in any links you have.

    Perhaps this was recorded in Langley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ednNI_Q3nEA

    Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version) 27 Jun, 2013 – 9:49 pm
    “And their music truly sucks.”

    Dreoilin 27 Jun, 2013 – 9:52 pm
    “I read about some of their exploits, Ben. And I was pretty disgusted.”

    Kempe 27 Jun, 2013 – 9:51 pm
    “Dear God…”

    You fuddy duddies! I think you are missing the point. They do not exist to make good records. They exist to upset and challeng our mores/religion/conventions. They are born of a radical tradition from Guy Debord to Malcolm MacClaren to Tuppy Owens.

    https://www.google.co.uk/#q=situationists+pussy+riot

  179. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 10:38 pm

    @ Macky

    Good to see you’re around and posting. Did you see my question about the Universal Declaration on Human Rights (my post to you at 19h17 – any chance of you finding a moment or two to answer, do you think? After all, it would be a serious matter if the UK were to be in breach of that Convention as you claim. Thanks!

  180. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 10:44 pm

    I am not a fuddy-duddy, Phil, just because I have numerous aches and pains and consume Ensure.

    I have transcended old age (ouch)

  181. Baitonhook

    While you got distracted, the entire contents of your can of smelly, wriggly fly-worms has escaped across the floor.

  182. @Ben
    I had to google Ensure. Now I need to buy some.

  183. The West Has Jailed Many For Similar or Lesser Offenses (Pussy Riot):

    similar cases have played out in the West – minus the feigned indignation over the perceived violation of free speech of alleged bigots, racists, and hooligans that have preceded “Pussy Riot.” In many cases, the West has actively pursued not only people harassing others and creating public disturbances, but also those distributing material to like minded people who’s beliefs are simply perceived as “socially harmful.”

    Pair jailed for web race crimes

    Simon Sheppard, 51, of Selby in North Yorkshire, received four years and 10 months, and Stephen Whittle, 42, of Preston, two years and four months.

    The men printed leaflets and controlled US websites featuring racist material.

    They fled to the US after being convicted at Leeds Crown Court last year, but failed in an asylum bid.

    Do as I fucking say! Don’t do as I fucking do!

    Hypocrisy abound Billy fourteen pints has gone Australia, turning all arse about tits, he drones on about; “We don’t spy on our people we protect them”, it is the “repressive regimes that spy on their people in secret”!!!!!! Toxic sludge is good for your health for certain!

  184. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 11:22 pm

    I was joking about the Ensure, Phil. Who knows what’s in it? It used to be primarily for those in Hospice who have difficulty eating solid food, now it’s marketed to everyone.

    As for the aches and pains; that’s real.

  185. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Jun, 2013 - 11:45 pm

    This is gonna hurt. http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/06/wikileaks-mole/

    “hordarson was long time volunteer for WikiLeaks with direct access to Assange and a key position as an organizer in the group. With his cold war-style embassy walk-in, he became something else: the first known FBI informant inside WikiLeaks. For the next three months, Thordarson served two masters, working for the secret-spilling website and simultaneously spilling its secrets to the U.S. government in exchange, he says, for a total of about $5,000. The FBI flew him internationally four times for debriefings, including one trip to Washington D.C., and on the last meeting obtained from Thordarson eight hard drives packed with chat logs, video and other data from WikiLeaks.”

  186. A supermarket whistle-blower working in the cultured cream of Sainsbury has explained to me the next generation of ‘Big Brother’ supermarket innovations in ‘spying on learning your habits’ tools.

    Missing data for instance from disloyal customers that pay by cash and those accomplished enough to steer offers their way by using multiple loyalty cards will be snapshot retained and stored by digital face recognition on entry and tracked automatically round the store. Watch you are looking at? That information is of course in addition to the data the store has from your(Nectar)card already:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2013/jun/08/supermarkets-get-your-data

    Testing and trials are ongoing/completed. Proposed implementation – 2015 in selected towns and cities.

  187. “any chance of you finding a moment or two to answer”

    Everything in their right order dear Clown; remember this outstanding matter that you have rudely being avoiding ever since KOWM addressed it to you several days ago, despite my recent reminders, as even earlier on this very thread:

    “Since you are so keen for a discussion, I maybe should remind you again that it’s at least three times you said that you would respond to KOWN’s post about the accusation frequently made by yourself & one or two others, that there is a predominately ‘anti-West narrative’ here on this Board. I really think that as you often cite this as justification for the way you conduct yourself here, you should “man up” & engage, otherwise people will draw certain conclusions as to why you only want to debate with FJ/Mary.

    Here to help get you started is what KOWN posted;

    ““No, I genuinely don’t believe in the existence of the ‘anti-West narrative’ that you frequently inveigh against. I do think most posters on this thread are united by disgust and anger for much of what the West does, but that is not the same thing. As for the examples you cite – mistreatment of women in India, for example – I think the reason people don’t post on such issues is simply that these things are universally condemned and hardly worth the effort of pointing out on a forum where it can be tacitly assumed most people are on the same page. What gets people’s goat here, I submit without a trace of faux-naivety, is those instances where there is a chasm between the cruel things the west does and the way they are laundered and perfumed by such organs as the BBC.”

    By the way did you have a look at the link provided by Aidworker1 ? Here’s a couple of highlights;

    “Hypocriticising, especially for a fault that the critic then displays him/herself. A simple tactic, often this is pedantic criticism of grammar, spelling or punctuation in a post which itself contains proof-reading errors to provoke exasperated responses from others.

    Antipathising, by taking up an alienating position by asking pseudo-naive questions, for example. This tactic is heavily reliant on deceiving the group it is aimed at and covertly manipulates egos, sensitivities, morals and feelings of guilt, usually to trigger emotional responses. It can also create moral dilemmas.”

    Strangely but strongly familiar to you ?

  188. @Aidworker1. 8 47pm

    Thanks.

    “Digressing…Hypocratising…Antipathising.”

    Has anyone found any published guidance for “Grooming”?
    That is, cultivating allies by posting several sympathetic posts (usually devoid of new info) to attract allies before seeking to discredit selected individuals with ad hominem attacks. Divide and rule.

    It took me a while to notice this tactic and it still unsettles me.

    Any defectors out there to post a professional’s handbook?

  189. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 6:57 am

    @ JON (Moderator)

    In general, I’m in favour of letting posters write whatever they want, with the exception (perhaps) of simple obscenities or mindless personal attacks devoid of real (preferably on-topic) content. And I realise that the task of judgement often involves threading a very fine line.

    In this connection, I wonder what your reaction would have been to the following three posts, made in the last 12 hours or so, if they had been penned by me :

    – Guano at 22h57 on 27/06
    – Macky at 00h25 today
    (possibly) Kibo Noh at 02h19 today?

    I

  190. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 7:35 am

    Dreoilin The link to the nasty Tara McKelvey piece ref Edward Snowden just worked for me. Perhaps they were updating it or something.

    27 June 2013 Last updated at 00:06
    Snowden case: 10 things to pack when you are a fugitive
    By Tara McKelvey
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23035469

  191. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 8:01 am

    The list of Professor’s subjects for study did not include B.Liar and others war criminals of this century.

    Henry VIII Would Be A Modern Day Psychopath
    Having two of your wives beheaded could be enough evidence to prove Henry VIII was a psychopath – but it’s now official.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1108966/henry-viii-would-be-a-modern-day-psychopath

  192. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 8:11 am

    I did not watch it but it would appear that there was a loaded question about Edward Snowden on last night’s QT. Did anyone else see it.

    This is a repost from Medialens.

    Posted by Mark D. on June 28, 2013, 12:18 am

    Twitter: BBC Question Time ‏@bbcquestiontime

    From the QT office: BBC Question Time ‏@bbcquestiontime 7m

    Luckily timed, the next question – Edward Snowden: hero or villain? #bbcqt
    Retweeted by BBC News (UK)

    My reply:

    Your question is a disgraceful act of pro-US servility — equivalent to ‘Woodward+Bernstein: heroes or villains?’

    M.
    __________

    The panel in Newcastle was – David Willetts, Liz Kendall, Simon Hughes, Mark Steel and Jill Kirby.

  193. Another one of these rainy summer days ahead I can’t say how much I value the randomness on here, the staccato news delivery and sleuthing by many posters here.

    I think it would be terrible to act up on the incessant clarion calls calling for regimental change here, when the blog has achieved what it has without it and on its own inertia, exactly due to the mix of issues it carries.

    Surely I’m not the only one who detests point scoring, and to watch posters contributions being changed to ‘deleted’ or such hierarchical pedantry, making it clear that their post was not accepted, for whatever reason, just leaves a bad taste and could discourage a first time poster who went over the top with his/her first post, just to shock.

    The incessant undermining of blog posters, followed by same sole effort trying to change structure and resolve categorising posters into A, B and poor little C who got deleted, has disrupted this blog.

    It has changed the dynamic of past posters, playing them off against each other, forming cliques and contributing very little.

    If it likes it here so much, why change us, what is the impetus and how come there is no better leader of the pack here?
    Secondly, reforming what one can’t abide by is normal, but to do it when one is explicitly opposed to much what is written here must hurt at times.

    Craig will make the decision, or none, to change/reform/abolish the blog, whether it carries ads or not, its is not up to us here to change this and I can’t see somehow that it is one of Craig’s family members, so what the flying Farraday is going on in its head, I don’t know.

  194. In general, I’m in favour of letting posters write whatever they want, with the exception (perhaps) of simple obscenities or mindless personal attacks devoid of real (preferably on-topic) content. And I realise that the task of judgement often involves threading a very fine line.

    In this connection, I wonder what your reaction would have been to the following three posts, made in the last 12 hours or so, if they had been penned by me :

    – Guano at 22h57 on 27/06
    – Macky at 00h25 today
    (possibly) Kibo Noh at 02h19 today?

    At last, something you’re in favour of!

    Still, supposing Jon has smothered a yawn and actually read your request for special treatment (don’t think he’d have done anything about those posts if you’d written them except perhaps wondered what brand of coffee was responsible for your apparent leap in IQ, btw, but I wouldn’t presume to anticipate him) he’ll maybe note that you ask a lot of leading questions but answer no substantial ones, that there is strong evidence of your grooming, stalking and gratuitously flaming posters, and that you are generally as disruptive as anyone you complain about.

    If you can’t take it, don’t hand it out, sport.

  195. And another point, it, indeed all of us, have been clearly told/asked by the moderator not to invoke his name in discussions, which, off course, was like a red red to a very small bull, for it to evoke Jon’s name every time a deletion has occurred, going against the moderators wishes and further destabilising this blog.

    Nan nan nahnahnaaa, how childish is that?

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