Counter-Revolution

by craig on July 4, 2013 8:49 am in Uncategorized

What we are seeing in Egypt is counter-revolution pure and simple, military hardliners who are going to be friendly with Israel and the US, and are committing gross human rights abuse.

Western backed counter-revolution is going to be sweeping back across the Middle East; do not be distracted by the words of the West, watch the deeds.  It will of course be in the name of secularism.  There is an important correlation between what is happening in Turkey and Egypt.  I made myself unpopular when I pointed out what the media did not tell you, that behind the tiny minority of doe-eyed greens in the vanguard of the Istanbul movement, stood the massed phalanxes of kemalist nationalism, a very ugly beast.  “Secularism” was the cry there too.

 

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712 Comments

  1. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 9:00 am

    The same title of your previous post can be reused.

  2. Tech Savage

    4 Jul, 2013 - 9:31 am

    You have this all arse about tit. The Egyptians have removed the Western created Muslim Brotherhood stooge for the continued blockade of the Gaza strip and for openly supporting the terrorists attempting to destabilise Syria. Turkey’s Erdogan worked this out afte popular dissent and immediately stopped assisting in Syria’s destruction, which is why CIA efforts are now centred on Jordan.

    Then again, you are someone who seem to believe the media provided accounts of the lives of Assange and Snowdon, instead of recognising blatant media hype which has no substance. Anyone that knows a jot about intelligence agencies knows that it is impossible for anyone, let alone a part-time contractor like Snowdon, to have a full list of US overseas agents as he claims. He’s well publicised procrastinations, accusations and claims are beyond believable, which is why no nation is taking him in.

    If you learn some decent history you will understand today’s events much better. Why not start with the history of the Muslim Brotherhood, see how it has been run and controlled by one Western intelligence agency after another since it’s founding in the 20′s by the British intelligence services. See how many times the entire leadership has been executed or assassinated only to rise up again like a phoenix, ready to provided a casus belli whenever needed. In fact, that is the template for the vast majority of these Western created, funded and controlled ‘terrorists’, from the Muslim Brotherhood of the 20s to Al Qaeda of the 90s.

  3. Before any crisis there is the subversion of the indigenous culture.

    The irony is that agencies which contrive subversion, in order to supplant the present culture with their own, also help their opponents reassert the old regime with even more gusto; turning a corrupted regime into a totalitarian one.

    Benazir Bhutto tried to ‘stabilize’ Afganistan after the Russians withdrew, by unleashing the Taliban. What we are seeing in Egypt is a competition between the ‘stabilizing’ forces: those who want to rule via the cleric, verses those who want to rule by the clerk. Either way it’s the difference between Sodom or Gomorrah.

  4. I made myself unpopular when I pointed out what the media did not tell you, that behind the tiny minority of doe-eyed greens in the vanguard of the Istanbul movement, stood the massed phalanxes of kemalist nationalism, a very ugly beast. “Secularism” was the cry there too.

    Excuse me, but “secularism” has been the cry in Turkey for the last eighty years. It’s an article of faith. Erdogan’s move to the religious zone is as much as anything due to the consistent refusal of the EU to grant Turkey’s human rights infringements the same indulgent smile with which it treats other acceding states. He has to look East for markets, and to do that, he has to look nonsecular. It will be to the West’s ultimate disadvantage to have a Turkic power bloc with Islamist sympathies, true, but the West has encouraged this in every way possible to date.

    “Massed phalanxes”…rather like talking about the “massed phalanxes” of Brits who eat MacDonalds. Or those in the 1950′s who believed Britain was a major world power; the superiority of Kemal’s vision is absorbed via mother’s milk and a rather efficient Gove-style education system.

    I would not dare make snide remarks about Kemal in Turkey – not so much because it is actually illegal to do so, but because any random citizen in whose hearing I uttered the insult would likely perform some rough justice of his own, with the approbation of most of his neighbours. Spontaneously.

  5. Tech Savage

    4 Jul, 2013 - 9:45 am

    Although still off limits in the UK press it is widely known, and even officially acknowledged to some extent via references to ‘steak knife’ and his revelations, that Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams were working for MI5 whilst running both wings of the IRA. Does that tell you anything? Can you work it out? Can you see the lengths the UK went to to prevent a popular movement for Irish reunification from taking hold, they created the IRA to discredit those legitimate calls by associating them with violence and murder and said they had to stay there to protect the ‘loyal’ population. This is how governments operate.

  6. This article claims that the cause of the riots in Turkey were brought about by a plan to turn the last green park in Istanbul into a shopping mall with mosque. Now I do know there are no shortages of mosques in Istanbul.

    http://newsjunkiepost.com/2013/06/24/turkeys-unrest-a-fight-for-secularism/#sthash.5ZBK4uXT.dpuf

    “The protests were touched off by the news that the government variously planned to erect a replica of Ottoman-era military barracks, a shopping mall and mosque in Taksim Square, where Istanbul’s last green space is located in Gezi Park.”

    My opposition to the persecution of Islam, which is a very serious issue, is often spoken. But who is best-placed to take Turkey forward, Erdogan or a secular opposition, I don’t know. While I agree that the Neocon-Zionists are happy so long as unrest is fomented all over the middle-East, there is nothing to rule out the same kind of grass-roots student movement being behind the Turkish demonstrations, as there were in Tiananmen Square and Kent State University.

  7. Good to see UKIP has ideas beyond their more familiar EU-containment objectives

    http://www.publicserviceeurope.com/article/3677/with-syria-cameron-is-following-blairs-folly-in-iraq#comment

  8. @Tech Savage

    Is it as controlled and contrived as you suggest or could be we are simply over egging the mix to suit our taste?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar_tasters

    Thanks for you opinions.

  9. Oh no, we can’t have Egypt enjoying friendly relations with Israel and the US. Far better they sacrifice another 5,000 to 10,000 of their young men every now and again in a pointless war.

    Can human rights abuses in the name of secularism be any worse than the human rights abuses carried out in the name of sharia law as that increasingly appears to be the alternative?

  10. Current situation in the mid east is similar to the sixties’ Latin America. The counter revolution to the Colour Revolution is designed only to further entrench Mubarak brand of leadership, that was deviated from by the Mursi crew. No deviation from the path can be tolerated, hence Mursi is paying the price, he is back in the jail, and his Islamic Brotherhood is back on the hit list, as it used to be.

    Our sycophantic corporate media have reported the carefully choreographed “neo revolution” along with package showing the stooges waving photos of the general in chief, and passed it on as “Revolution” again! The simple fact that Mursi was elected by plebiscite post the 1st colour revolution, and now he has been kicked out in the act two of the revolution going a “neo”.

    - – - – -

    Tech Savage said;

    The Egyptians have removed the Western created Muslim Brotherhood stooge for the continued blockade of the Gaza strip and for openly supporting the terrorists attempting to destabilise Syria.

    Muslim brotherhood have been around in Egypt for a long while, since 1928. Although it has always been persecuted in Egypt based on the zero tolerance doctrine of any perceived opposition to the good old Western brand “Capitalism” (more like Plutocracy, letting few lottery winners at random to share the wealth, now and then).

    The earlier Arab Spring itself was a “colour revolution”, that is now further refined; Mubarak is gone, long live the Generals. The simple fact that Mursi had to borrow from Qatar because he could not borrow from anywhere else, is the roots of his denouncement of the Syrian government.

    Further, careful sifting of the corporate media reports, clarify, chief among the Mursi deviance was; appointing a governor to Luxor, whom in his youth had attacked tourists with stones and rocks, as well as taking other uncalled for measures that the Western powers did not like very much; presto he is kicked out!

  11. @ Jay:
    You forgot the ladies…

    http://data.ukiyo-e.org/mfa/images/sc202866.jpg

  12. Komodo, looks more like dragon-soup than vinegar!

  13. Well I am shocked, shocked I tell you, Shocked as Shocked can be; I am a prophet, I can foretell the future, as I have found out:

    Egypt’s military issues arrest warrants for Muslim Brotherhood

    military rulers have issued arrest warrants for up to 300 members of the Muslim Brotherhood hours after ousting elected president Mohamed Morsi and taking him and his aides into military custody.

    Mind the Generals were a bit slow off the mark, it took them nearly twelve hours before they started shoving the Bredas back into their cells. Democracy indeed has arrived back on the land of the Pharaohs!

  14. I hope you will laugh at this as much as I did:

    We have to recognise new Egypt regime

    “The important thing is for political leaders and others are needed to work together in a way they haven’t done over the last year, to bring in the checks and balances that should be there in a constitution that’s respected by all, to make sure elections that are respected by all and to make urgent improvements to the Egyptian economy.”

    “We recognise states, not governments, a recognised state of Egypt, we have to work with whoever is in authority in Egypt,” he added.

    Billy fourteen pints talking out of both sides of his mouth, or is that; both his mouths?

  15. Can human rights abuses in the name of secularism be any worse than the human rights abuses carried out in the name of sharia law as that increasingly appears to be the alternative?

    Funny you should mention that. This was released yesterday.

    http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/47d4e277b48d9d3685256ddc00612265/bc81fa86c7f41f6385257b9d0049448a?OpenDocument

    Abuses are abuses, and are carried out by all jurisdictions. There’s no moral high ground.

  16. I am glad that an Islamist government has been put out of business. I hope that the next one to be elected will not be dominated by the MB, who would try to introduce an Islamist constitution.

  17. Kemal nationalism is indeed an ugly beast, but the fact remains that Taksim Square was going to be redeveloped without adequate public consultation. It is an important central public space. The government made a serious mistake. It is a pity that it did so, but it did so. It will have to be more careful in future, and it knows it.

  18. Billy fourteen pints talking out of both sides of his mouth, or is that; both his mouths?

    Tactful of you not to mention forked tongues, Passerby. I appreciate that.

    Me, I’m thinking the print media need a special font for Hague’s pronouncements. You can read it from left to right, or you can read it from right to left.

  19. You are welcome Komodo, don’t mention it, and your font suggestion ought to be heeded wherever/whenever Billy fourteen pints is busy making pronouncements.

    Boy they are all at it this morning:

    Obama on little bit of a coup Egyptian leader’s ouster

    President Obama did not call for ousted Morsi to be returned to power, nor did he condemn the Egyptian military for forcing him out of office and suspending the constitution.

    Is that because:

    The acknowledgement of a military coup would trigger automatic cuts in U.S. aid to the strategically important North African country.

  20. Billy Hague is full of sh*t. On Democracy Now, the military road map was explained thus: 1) remove elected leader, 2) destroy the nascent constitution, c) install nice man in military uniform on a ‘temporary’ basis.

    I believe this is otherwise generally known as a ‘coup’. Marx would call it a counter-revolution perhaps, but let’s not get too hung up on descriptions. It’s a bunch of military types taking over, and they aren’t generally the most trustworthy bunch, are they? This isn’t to justify the rule of Morsi, and to denigrate the genuine bravery of the Egyptian people on the streets, it just merely looks like the Egyptian military are playing the long-game – and Billy Hague will support them to the hilt. As usual.

  21. It must be remembered that Morsi was unable to take off as President until Killery Clinton flew into Cairo and uprooted Tantawi overnight as Head of the Egyptian Army. In effect the Great Satan has engineered a “heads I win,tails you lose” coup of its own! A dead give away will be the transfer of Mubarak to better lodgings.

  22. …military hardliners who are going to be friendly with Israel…

    Morsi was pretty damn co-operative for an insane jihadi threat to all we hold dear, though, wasn’t he? Destroyed Gaza tunnels, moved the army into Sinai to deal with AQ elements, brokered the ceasefire after the last turkey shoot in Gaza. As much as the army did, and will, he needed the US hush money.

    Nor is the coup entirely unforeseen – this from November last year:

    Egyptians feel strongly about what they see as decades of suffering by the Palestinians at the hands of Israel. Their opposition to Israel runs deep after four full-blown wars with it in six decades. A resumption of Israeli attacks on Gaza, for example, could land Morsi in hot water with the Egyptian public.

    Also, Morsi has to contend with growing criticism by critics that his preoccupation with Gaza pulled him away from pressing issues at home.

    More than 50 children were killed last week when their school bus was hit by a train at a railway crossing in southern Egypt, an incident that led to charges of negligence against Morsi’s government. Street protests against his policies and the Brotherhood left one person dead and hundreds wounded in Cairo since Monday. Charges of illegitimacy now swirl around a panel drafting a new constitution after liberals and Christians pulled out in protest against the domination of the process by Morsi’s Islamist allies.

    On top of that, Egypt announced Tuesday it reached an initial understanding with the International Monetary Fund for a $4.8 billion loan to kick-start the ailing economy. Egypt will have to reduce subsidies from basic items like fuel, risking social unrest over price hikes.

    “Morsi’s popularity can’t go on eroding like this forever” without a backlash, said rights activist Mohsen Kamal. “He is vulnerable to dramatic and maybe even violent changes if he ignores what is happening.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/21/morsi-gaza-ceasefire_n_2173589.html

  23. doug scorgie

    4 Jul, 2013 - 1:43 pm

    Tech Savage
    4 Jul, 2013 – 9:31 am

    “Anyone that knows a jot about intelligence agencies knows that it is impossible for anyone, let alone a part-time contractor like Snowdon, to have a full list of US overseas agents as he claims.”

    Has Snowden claimed that?

    Do you have any references?

  24. doug scorgie

    4 Jul, 2013 - 2:14 pm

    Abe Rene
    4 Jul, 2013 – 12:02 pm

    “I am glad that an Islamist government has been put out of business. I hope that the next one to be elected will not be dominated by the MB, who would try to introduce an Islamist constitution.”

    Sorry Abe but democracy is democracy; the people choose their government through the ballot box.

    Do you believe that because the US/UK/Israel don’t like the election winners of a country they have a right to force out that elected government?

    The same thing happened in Palestine when Hamas was elected; the same thing was attempted in Venezuela in 2002.

    Democracy is considered a dangerous thing by the ruling corporate/political elites of the world.

  25. A predictable counter revolution, so looks to me as though it’s all going to plan in Egypt. Things are well on track for the partition of the country.

  26. Cross-posting from previous thread and off-topic – sorry, but I’d dearly love to hear other people’s take on this:

    Bolivia has REJECTED a formal US extradition request for Snowden:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-04/bolivia-rejects-u-s-request-for-snowden-following-flight-detour.html

    Note, too, that of the list of 21 countries that have applications for asylum from Snowden, the sidebar on this BBC article today says that only 4 have so far formally said No; the majority are fence-sitting, awaiting developments:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23174874

    Of which, there’s a good possibility some will come from the 12-nation bloc of UNASUR holding an emergency summit today, who can now co-ordinate a response as a strong enough bloc to resist trade threats. This letters page from the Guardian makes clear what Ecuador’s actual position is, as well as why so very many of those applications were aimed at European nations, who all have very compliant extradition treaties with the US – so it would seem odd at first – but who now, with the brilliantly timed stories of NSA spying on EU business, can be pressured to act as a bloc (which is clearly happening and having some effect – the US-EU trade treaty negotiations been completely disrupted):

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/sovereignty-stake-snowden-saga

    There’s a VERY clever game of geopolitic chess being played here and, of course, it’s Wikileaks who are the ones who’ve been busy plotting all the Knight and Queen moves…

    God, I would give my eye-teeth to know who exactly put out that *rumour* that Snowden was on Morales’ plane to be picked up by the intelligence services and kick off this unholy fuck-up in intercontinental political relations. Oh, what’s that you say? Ecuador found a bug in their London embassy three weeks ago…?

    Ahahahahhahahhahahahhahahahha!

  27. I think things are rather more complex – not to say convoluted – than Craig intimates. If secularism really is the Western ‘cry’ in Middle-Eastern affairs, how to explain what is going on in Syria?; or for that matter, how to explain the fact that medieval absolutist monarchies remain the bulwark of the West’s allies (and armaments customers) in the Middle East?

    Fact is that the only ‘ism’ driving Western policy in the ME or anywhere else for that matter, is Machiavellianism, pure and simple, in all its evil. If the West can’t have a fawning, compliant government (of ANY political stipe) in place, why then engineered turmoil will serve its purposes nearly aswell (and the security/armaments industries handsomly) thank you very much. What absolutely cannot be tolerated is any government that declines to see things the West’s way.

  28. Here’s Shamir Amin’s take on events in his country:
    Samir Amin, Egyptian philosopher and economist, director of the Third World Forum in Dakar, talks about the last year in Egypt with the Brotherhood in power, interviewed by Giuseppe Acconcia.

    On 30 June 2012, Mohammed Morsi took over as the Mubarak successor. However, on the occasion of the first anniversary of the Muslim Brothers’ victory when this interview took plave, bloody clashes broke out in the country.

    Acconcia: What do you think about the Tamarod’s campaign?

    Samir Amin: The Tamarod’s campaign for the Morsi dismissal is magnificent. Millions of people signed their names after giving deep political consideration to what they were doing: something totally ignored by the international mainstream media. They represent the majority of all the electoral constituencies, but they do not have any voice. The Muslim Brothers wield political power and like to think they can control 100% of the votes. Thus, they ensured members of the movement in every public sector. Their way of managing the country is informed by a type of crony capitalism which simply does not leave any room for the opposition figures and technocrats who had some power even in the Mubarak era.

    A: This is happening during the worst economic crisis of recent decades

    Samir Amin: There is more than an economic crisis. Islamists have only ultraliberal answers to give to the crisis: they have replaced the capitalists’ bourgeois clique that were Mubarak’s friends with reactionary businessmen. Moreover, their goal is quite simply to sell off public goods. The Brotherhood is hated by Egyptians because it continues with the same policies as its predecessor.

    A: Maybe worse in the case of the Islamic Finance Bill?

    Samir Amin: It is theft to attach derisory prices to goods that are worth billions of dollars. These are not the usual privatizations that reactionary regimes indulge in, selling off goods at their economic value. This is pure fraud more than a privatization.

    A: Recalling the stages of this year with the Brotherhood in power – Morsi won after eight days of uncertainty and finally the elimination of the Nasserist, Hamdin Sabbahi, in the first round. Were the 2012 presidential elections manipulated?

    Samir Amin: There was massive electoral fraud. Hamdin Sabbahi could have passed into the second round, but the US Embassy did not want it. European observers listened to their American diplomatic counterparts and turned a blind eye to the fraud involved. Moreover, the five million votes for Sabbahi were squeaky clean and highly motivated. On the other hand, the five million votes for Morsi came from the most wretched part of the population, devoid of political conscience: the votes of people willing to be bought off for a piece of bread and a glass of milk.

    A: But would you agree that the sharpest clashes between the presidency and demonstrators broke out last November as a consequence of the presidential decree that extended Morsi’s powers?

    Samir Amin: Morsi got going with a few weeks of demagogic speechifying, promising to listen to the other political contestants. After that, it soon became clear the extent to which the President was a puppet with the Gulf countries pulling the strings out of sight. He became a mere instrument of the murshid’s will – that of Mohammed Badie, Supreme Guide of the Muslim Brotherhood.

    A: The historic support to the Palestinians had been shelved as well?

    Samir Amin: The Egyptian Muslim Brothers support Israel, like the Gulf countries and Qatar do. They have always adopted an anti-Zionist discourse, but this was just an ongoing deception. The Qatari Emir, for example, is quite used to saying one thing and then doing the opposite, given the complete absence of public opinion. Now Egypt is supporting the worst type of opposition in Syria, as do the most reactionary western powers. The end result is that the majority of the western weapons furnished to the rebels are being used to finance the very worst outcome in Syria.

    A: Is this why Morsi supported the creation of a Free Trade Area in the Sinai, favouring an economic relationship with Israel?

    Samir Amin: This is a huge loss to Egypt. The effects of the new Free Trade Area will not be the imagined industrialization of the region, but the perpetration of a huge fiscal fraud. This will strengthen small mafias and the dismantling of public assets. In the end, the Brotherhood would accept all the conditions of the International Monetary Fund and the expected loan will accordingly come to fruition despite the fact that corruption and financial scandal have spread all over the country.

    A: So how do you see the acceptance of the Constitution written by the Muslim Brotherhood, last December?

    Samir Amin: This is a dictatorship of the majority. However, judges put up the strongest and indeed an unprecedented fight against the ratification of the constitutional referendum results. But it is clear that the ultimate goal of Freedom and Justice (the political party of the Brotherhood) is to build-up a theocracy on the Iranian model.

    A: To conclude, is there anything left to preserve in this year of Morsi’s presidency?

    Samir Amin: The lumpen proletariat is easily manipulated, and a fortiori would not obtain anything by the upheaval Morsi’s overthrow will bring. Moreover, the division of power the Brotherhood has with the army who is behind the scenes, ready to intervene, is full of ambiguity. The military personnel, as a class, are corrupt – a corruption guaranteed by American help, and carefully composed of segments of different classes, divided into political currents, many of them close to the Brotherhood and the Salafists.

    However, with normal elections, with a period of democratic preparation, the Brotherhood will be beaten. But if this is not going to happen, next October there will be a more repressive climate and the vote will be manipulated by widespread falsification as happened on the previous occasion.

  29. Dominic Clissold

    4 Jul, 2013 - 3:10 pm

    Craig, hope you are well. As someone married to a Turk, currently living in Turkey, and having lived inTurkey for 15 years on and off, I have say your analysis of the Gezi Park protests is so off the mark to be laughable! Happy to enter into a private discourse as to why your picture is so flawed.

  30. The US is clearly in headless-chicken mode. Which leads us to assume that what Snowden hasn’t released yet could mean the end of civilisation. *opens popcorn*

  31. Mine@ 3.10 – in response to Arbed, sorry.

  32. Snaps from the front:

    http://directorblue.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/15-photos-from-tahrir-square-protests.html

    Looks like more and more people are wising up to how it all works.

    Much good analysis on this thread. Thanks for that.

  33. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 3:49 pm

    How is it that the Eqyptian air force manage to fly their aircraft with laser pens shining at them, yet in the US and here, it is a crime to direct laser beams at aircraft?

    Laser pens light up Egypt protests
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-23178484

    Man gets 30 months in prison for shining laser at plane
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21939795

  34. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 3:54 pm

    The US Ambassador to Egypt is having a difficult time of it according to the NYT.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/world/middleeast/ambassador-becomes-focus-of-egyptians-mistrust-of-us.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    She’s been everywhere, man…… UN, El Salvador, Pakistan, Andean Countries.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_W._Patterson

  35. It’s probably a crime there, too. Not only does it (at best) destroy the pilot’s night vision temporarily, it makes taking snapshots of people on the ground a rather uncertain process. Those are pretty powerful laser pens, btw, judging by the brightness of the beams.

  36. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 4:00 pm

    Conditions for the Palestinians at Rafah have worsened.

    Rafah border crossing open for humanitarian cases
    Egypt Independent – 1 hour ago

    Egyptian army demolishes tunnels with Gaza
    Middle East Monitor – 5 minutes ago

    Palestinians suffer restrictions at Rafah border ahead of Egypt’s protests
    Ahram Online – 4 days ago

  37. How is it that the Eqyptian air force manage to fly their aircraft with laser pens shining at them, yet in the US and here, it is a crime to direct laser beams at aircraft?

    Did you notice the total nonsense in this paragraph?

    The pilot of a Cessna Citation plane preparing to land at Bob Hope Airport in Burbank suffered “vision impairment that lasted for hours” after the incident, according to a statement from the Office of the United States Attorney Central District of California.

    The helicopter pilot, who had been wearing protective eye gear, was uninjured.

    Where did the helicopter come from?

    Probably a laser was shun into the eyes of the operative who was typing away the nonsense, because he/she was not wearing The protective headgear worn by the helicopter pilot that was beamed by Scottie into the story!

  38. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 4:59 pm

    “There’s a VERY clever game of geopolitic chess being played here and, of course, it’s Wikileaks who are the ones who’ve been busy plotting all the Knight and Queen moves…”

    I hope you’re right Arbed. I’m going barmy with the confluence of multiple subterfuges. I worry for the young man, not much older than my eldest.

  39. Flaming June,

    Copy and paste this in your browser and see if you have clearance to land, on the page!

    http://acepilots.com/wwi/pilot-uniform.jpg

  40. technicolour

    4 Jul, 2013 - 5:09 pm

    Chris 2: Thanks for posting. Have reservations about references to the ‘lumpen proletariat’, and about apparent lack of concern for people who are so desperate that their votes can be bought with a glass of milk; but how many people around the world do not recognise this?

    “They represent the majority of all the electoral constituencies, but they do not have any voice. The Muslim Brothers…ensured members of the movement in every public sector. Their way of managing the country is informed by a type of crony capitalism which simply does not leave any room for the opposition figures..”

  41. I don’t see this as a counter-revolution but rather as a continuation of a revolution as yet incomplete. 25 million people on the streets was symptomatic of the limitations of a genuine democracy from the bottom in terms of outcome. Morsi was voted in to power with a clear mandate which was subsequently sabotaged. The military filled the void and thus the revolution will almost certainly in turn be hijacked by the Obama regime for their own nefarious ends.

  42. “Copy and paste this in your browser and see if you have clearance to land, on the page!”

    Is that legal? Surely if she has been told she isn’t authorised to access a file and she accesses it she would be breaking the law.

    Seems to be a lot of leeching going on on this blog, Craig is going to be getting a bad name among webmasters.

  43. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 7:48 pm

    Egypt is a member of the GECF (Gas Exporting Countries Forum)

    ‘GECF Members & Observers

    The Member Countries of the Forum are: Algeria, Bolivia, Egypt, Equatorial Guinea, Iran, Libya, Nigeria, Oman, Qatar, Russia, Trinidad and Tobago, United Arab Emirates and Venezuela.

    Kazakhstan, Iraq, the Netherlands and Norway have the status of Observer Members.

    The Forum is a multi-layered and open organization providing flexibility of participation in its activities. GECF highly values the potential of its present Members and Observers and at the same time encourages further increase in their numbers and welcomes new members.’

    They have just been meeting in Moscow.

    ~~

    I came across them when reading this piece on the Global Research website entitled –

    Will Israel’s Gas Hopes Come True? Accused of Stealing Gas from the Gaza Strip

    ‘The 2nd leaders’ summit of the Gas Exporting Countries Forum (GECF) has taken place in Moscow. Experts say there is a candidate to enter the elite club of 13 members once the rich East Mediterranean deposits start to be developed. The vast sea bottom natural gas fields were discovered a few years ago. Israel is the leader in the development; it starts its activities without waiting for neither ultimate resolution of legal issues, nor settling the emerging disputes with neighbors.’

    /..

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/will-israels-gas-hopes-come-true-accused-of-stealing-gas-from-the-gaza-strip/5341688

  44. Technicolour, I share your reservations which seem uncharacteristic of Amin. However, aside from the tone (and this is a translation I believe) I felt that the point of view would be of interest. Except, of course to the trolls..

  45. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 8:32 pm

    ‘Britain responded to the crackdown by calling for political prisoners to be freed as soon as possible so they could be involved in early elections. But as military chiefs installed an interim president, the West was torn between condemning the army’s intervention or working with the new regime after the revolt against Islamist leader Morsi.’

    Agent Cameron is ‘battling with the moral dilemma’.

    “We never support intervention by the military. What now needs to happen in Egypt is for democracy to flourish and for a genuine democratic transition to take place and all parties need to be involved in that.”

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/cameron-let-democracy-flourish-in-egypt-8686156.html

    ~~~

    On the same website, I see that the business of fashion designer Nicole Farhi has gone into administration. I am very sorry. Her husband is the brilliant playwright, David Hare, who dramatized Craig’s book ‘Murder in Samarkand’ for radio.

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/i-am-heartbroken-says-nicole-farhi-after-her-fashion-brand-goes-into-administration-8687664.html

    Wikipedia -

    In February 2007, Farhi was a signatory to the declaration of the Independent Jewish Voices, a new Jewish network, calling for an open and critical debate on Israel and criticising certain Jewish organisations’ unconditional support of Israel.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicole_Farhi

  46. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 8:34 pm

    Don’t worry Fred. It is still verboten. Thanks for trying Passerby.

  47. doug scorgie

    4 Jul, 2013 - 8:39 pm

    An interesting interview with George Galloway by Australian ABC radio about Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood (before the military takeover).

    Educational I think.

    http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/radical-uk-mp-george-galloway-speaks-to-breakfast/4798410

  48. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 9:36 pm

    The Egyptian military act at Israel’s bidding presumably. A betrayal of their brothers and sisters in Gaza.

    Egyptian army demolishes tunnels with Gaza

    Tunnels between Egypt and Gaza have been the main life line to the 1.8million residents of Gaza since the Israeli siege was imposed in 2006.

    On Thursday afternoon, Egyptian bulldozers began to demolish the tunnels between Egypt and the Gaza Strip which have functioned as the life-line to the besieged Gaza Strip since the beginning of the Israeli siege in 2006.

    Egyptian facebook news network RNN reported on its page that big Egyptian military bulldozers started the demolition of the tunnels. They were protected by military vehicles.

    /..
    http://uk.mg.bt.mail.yahoo.com/dc/launch?.partner=bt-1&.gx=1&.rand=ba2de37sqfjvb

  49. Some interesting articles at the antiwar site;

    http://antiwar.com/blog/2013/07/03/morsi-or-not-the-us-empire-has-a-stranglehold-on-egypt/

    http://antiwar.com/blog/2013/07/03/us-violates-intl-law-grounding-bolivian-presidents-plane-in-pursuit-of-snowden/

    http://news.antiwar.com/2013/07/03/nsa-surveillance-threatens-127-billion-eu-trade-deal/

    This also caught my eye; “Postal Service computers photograph the exterior of every piece of paper mail that is processed in the United States — about 160 billion pieces last year. It is not known how long the government saves the images.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/monitoring-of-snail-mail.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

  50. Horace Swanson

    4 Jul, 2013 - 10:15 pm

    I don’t agree, Craig. Morsi was startlingly incompetent and Egypt was going to the dogs. The people couldn’t take it any more.

  51. Interesting links there Kibo. Worth looking at more of those patterns.

  52. @Auntful.10 55pm

    “Worth looking at more of those patterns.”

    I think so too.

    Loads more on you tube.

    Also in Howard Bloom’s “Global Brain”.

    Ch. 9 “The Conformity Police” and Ch.19 “The Kidnap of the Mass Mind”

  53. ‘What we are seeing in Egypt is counter-revolution pure and simple, military hardliners who are going to be friendly with Israel and the US, and are committing gross human rights abuse’

    Craig isn’t that exactly what the Muslim Brotherhood were doing?

  54. BrianFujisan

    5 Jul, 2013 - 12:51 am

    June @ 7 : 48 pm

    i may have missed it in your Link, but They have redirected the segregation wall in order to steal the gas.

    Israel has amended the path of its “apartheid” Separation Wall near the West Bank village of Rantis in order to include an area where it is believed oil may be discovered. The exploration is taking place on land on the Palestinian side of the so-called “Green” 1949 armistice line.
    Of course, geology does not follow man-made borders, so international conventions leave some no-man’s land between neighbouring countries. “Based on this rule, Israel is definitely stealing oil and gas which, by right, belongs to the Palestinians,” local sources said.

    http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/6331-israel-is-stealing-palestinian-oil-and-gas

  55. BrianFujisan

    5 Jul, 2013 - 1:06 am

    ALL THEM YEARS AGO – Charlie Chaplin Had them made, good job he’s not around to see how much worse it has all gotten

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Q8tjH3q8feE

    AND WOW..Check Out These MEDIA BANNED IMAGES from Egypt, looks like the people are getting real

    http://beforeitsnews.com/obama/2013/07/egypt-and-obama-5-stunning-pictures-banned-by-the-mainstream-media-2453270.html

  56. Off subject.

    Android phone users beware

  57. OT-sorta…

    Strange gig of two halves tonight…struggled at first then it all clicked and everyone was updancing for the last half hour.

    It didn’t help that my main instrument got broken last weekend and i was on a less familiar machine tonight…

    Anyhoo..point being…spoke to a few in the audience tonight…all creeds,colours,religions,gender and age.

    My understanding overall was that so many people felt so helpless,spied upon,serfish…

    Just a view from a Glasgow street tonight chaps-no greater significance…

    :.)

  58. “Agent Cameron is ‘battling with the moral dilemma’.”

    Agent Cameron wouldn’t know a moral dilemma if it introduced itself to him, gave him a million quid, and asked for a Knighthood. ‘Who is this Sir Moral Dilemma anyway?’ he would ask his advisers, much later.

    Do What The US Wants = Good.

    Threaten Own Career By Showing Independence = Bad.

    No dilemma there. Why are so many elected leaders such idiots? This really can’t be an accident.

  59. “democracy is democracy”

    Posted by a fool who doesn’t understand the term “political science”. Quite obviously, one implementation of a democratic political system can be radically different to another and furthermore, produce regimes that are significantly unrepresentative of the majority of a well-informed public. Who decides who is and who isn’t representative?

    Let’s not get too sentimental over romanticised notions of “democracy”. Putin was democratically elected, after all.

  60. @Brian. 1 06am

    I must watch “The Great Dictator”

    “You the people have the power…”

    Right on!

    Re Egypt images. Emperor’s new clothes moment?

  61. “Re Egypt images. Emperor’s new clothes moment?”

    I must congratulate them on the quality of their banners. Must have cost a fortune.

    But to my mind there’s something about professionally made signs and grass roots demonstrations that don’t just go together. Written on a bed sheet in poster paints would have influenced me more.

  62. She brought me into this world
    Her love more precious than any diamond or pearl
    She was my shield to the rain
    And she could heal my every pain
    Her smile lightened my every day
    And fought my biggest fears away.

    We love you Mum.

  63. Stop banging on about international ‘law’. It’s a fiction – we don’t have a world government.

  64. How do I disable kooks?

  65. Thanks for that Mark, welling stuff that.
    Back to Egypt and its gumptious population led by the nose by the military, one way or other, at least they are out there as one, speaking out and affecting change.

    Whatever the result of this cauldron, or the smell it emits during the cooking process, once its done, the contents will have to be eaten or else, it gets kicked into the sand.

    How far are other societies in this process of recognition, facing up to the inevitabilities of being controlled?
    http://m.vice.com/en_uk/read/the-metropolitan-police-cops-out-of-control

  66. Uzbek in the UK

    5 Jul, 2013 - 12:01 pm

    IMPORTANT.

    Under pressure from Russia to reduce number of 5 million migrant seasonal workers from Uzbekistan Uzbek government started crackdown on Uzbek migrant workers. Uzbek local officials have started to collect information on those who are working abroad (primarily in Russia and Kazakhstan) and it is believed that families of these men (as it is usually men who go to work abroad) are being interrogated.

    This all was preceded by the Karimov’s interview to the local media where he called Uzbek migrant workers “lazybones who are going abroad to earn easy money and do not bother to find a job in Uzbekistan”.

    More information is here, in Russian.

    http://www.fergananews.com/news/20912

    http://www.fergananews.com/articles/7775

    To add here it is believe that around 5 million migrant workers contribute over 10 billion USD to the economy of Uzbekistan providing back marker in Uzbekistan with hard currency that is then exchanges to imported goods.

  67. http://nsnbc.me/2013/07/05/mohamed-morsi-arrested-israel-fears-its-honeymoon-is-over-only-a-fe/

    “Of course, the Egyptians realize the danger of certain extremist, heavily armed elements; they did not remove former president, Hosni Mubarak, to replace one dictator with another. And they did not rebel against Morsi to replace him with an extremist.

    They are seeking their ultimate goal of real liberation, real democracy and equality.

    The Egyptians removed a one-man rule, a dictator, to live in dignity, not to be ruled by another form of dictatorship.”

  68. doug scorgie

    5 Jul, 2013 - 12:59 pm

    Jemand- Censorship
    Improves History
    5 july 2013 7:13am

    “democracy is democracy”

    “Posted by a fool who doesn’t understand the term “political science”.

    Quite obviously, one implementation of a democratic political system can be radically different to another and furthermore, produce regimes that are significantly unrepresentative of the majority of a well-informed public.

    Who decides who is and who isn’t representative?”

    “Let’s not get too sentimental over romanticised notions of “democracy”. Putin was democratically elected, after all.”

    So Jemand you are one of those right-wing wankers that only believes in democracy when it gives the result you want.

    If I’m wrong please let me and the other posters know what your stance on democracy is.

  69. It doesn’t matter, they can elect who they like it doesn’t matter, it’s the army that controls Egypt and it’s America that controls the army.

  70. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella)

    5 Jul, 2013 - 1:05 pm

    @ Arebed :

    “Cross-posting from previous thread and off-topic – sorry, but I’d dearly love to hear other people’s take on this:

    “Bolivia has REJECTED a formal US extradition request for Snowden:”
    ________

    Not really a take, just a reminder that I predicted this on the previous thread.
    I also predicted that Ecuador will the next to try and wriggle off the Julian Assange hook. Wait and see.
    Remeber : you read it here first!

  71. @Dogg Scorgie “Do you believe that because the US/UK/Israel don’t like the election winners of a country they have a right to force out that elected government?”

    Governments have a responsility to their own people, including their use of resources. For the UK, joining the US in its invasions was too expensive IMO. Israel couldn’t afford anything beyond limited special operations (like knocking out nuclear facilities in unfriendly countries in the region).

    In principle, as Henry Kissinger said, “I don’t see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist because of the irresponsibility of its own people.” Substitute “Islamist” and the same applies.

    However I would prefer Communist or Islamist governments to be thrown out by their own people, which happily happened here.

  72. Is that the real Habbabkuk? Spelling isn’t up to usual standard so I wonder maybe an imposter? Especially as the post misses the point entirely – it’s the US’s request that Bolivia has rejected, not Snowden’s asylum application.

    Rafael Correa too has insisted the Guardian correct its article based on Rory Carroll’s interview. Correa had a tape recording, which shows he never criticised either Snowden or Assange; confirmed that as far as Ecuador was concerned Snowden’s asylum application is still ‘live’ if he can reach their territory; and indicated that, whilst Narvaez’ issuing of a travel pass without authorisation and Assange’s announcement of the travel pass were ‘mistakes’ (and Narvaez would be sanctioned for it), he understood where they were coming from. He reiterated that Assange continues to enjoy Ecuador’s full support.

  73. While I’m here, this is O/T but I’m sure it will be of interest to some contributors here. New evidence in the Assange Swedish case has emerged – the forensic lab report is finally available in English, with some pretty explosive findings. The English translation is reproduced on page 8 of the Why I’m Convinced Anna Ardin is a Liar thread, with discussion following (from 1 July onwards):

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/09/why-i-am-convinced-that-anna-ardin-is-a-liar/comment-page-8/#comments

  74. Erm, not “reproduced on page 8″ but linked there. Well worth clicking through on all the links supplied, to get a full understanding of the implications of the forensic findings in the Swedish Affair Assange.

  75. @ Doug Scogie.

    “Democracy, wanxxxxxxs.“

    “Come in old boy sit down and tell us all about it“

    I will ask you- how can we raise standards in a egalitarian society?

  76. Basically, whenever a muslim party comes to power, not as a result of free elections,(Algiers and now Egypt as example) there will be enough people to sweep them away from power under the pretense of fight against economic problems, political islam, or islamists, etc.
    The rule that is effective in western countries can not be applied in muslim countries because there is a muslim party in power, i.e. muslims are ruling. Period.

  77. typo: I meant …”note, as a result of free elections..”

  78. Abe: Note that when quoting Kissinger, you are referring to the words of a liar and a mass murdering war criminal. Hardly the best person from whom to draw your principles.

  79. “Is that the real Habbabkuk?”

    Not been the same lately; wonder if it’s anything to do with the recent testing of the much self-acclaimed “intellectual fire-power”, which revealed itself as rather a very damp squib in reality !

  80. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Jul, 2013 - 5:20 pm

    Glenn; Howdy. Have you spoken with Clark? Several (including me) have outstanding emails.

    Just wonderin where is he and where you been?

  81. Tom Secker has a new book out on 7/7

    “Secrets, Spies and 7/7″

    http://www.investigatingtheterror.com/Secrets__Spies_and_7_7.htm

    Here he discusses his findings, evidence and problems with the official narrative in an indepth discussion with The Corbett Report:

    http://www.corbettreport.com/interview-698-tom-secker-on-secrets-spies-and-77/

    Tom has also made a very comprehensive film about the affair:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFllLvhgYm8

  82. Thanks for the update on new evidence, Arbed, so he condom story does not stack up to much and the similarities of both stories are now beginning to emerge, actions that could have been planned some time before and were executed rather unprofessionally. AA should have had more experience after her Cuban era.

    music, interlude, picture of cyclists going round and round….

    Tonight’s the night of the GHG, nearest thing to remind Norfolk people what its like to do the Tour de France. Some very nice real ale pubs within shouting distance of each other, this test attracts cyclists from near and far.

    Not myself though, that hill is murder and I once took part in a running race round the same course, they nearly had to put me down….

    http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/cyclists_set_to_attempt_the_gas_hill_gasp_1_2266042

  83. Flaming June

    5 Jul, 2013 - 6:11 pm

    O/T Craig wrote about Lynne Stewart previously. The b******s will not give her compassionate release.

    URGENT UPDATE AND MESSAGE FROM LYNNE STEWART —http://www.iacenter.org/prisoners/stewart070513/

    God bless her. She can still be seen smiling in the photo.

  84. Flaming June

    5 Jul, 2013 - 6:16 pm

    http://www.iacenter.org/prisoners/stewart070513/

    That link does not seem live. It is the first item on the IAC home page here.

    http://www.iacenter.org/

  85. Flaming June

    5 Jul, 2013 - 6:31 pm

    Also O/T Ian Shircore’s review of a new book about Dr Kelly’s unnatural death, ‘Dark Actors’ by Robert Lewis.

    It is almost 10 years since Dr Kelly was found dead on Harrowdown Hill.

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/books/8950851/dark-actors-by-robert-lewis-review/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=dark-actors-by-robert-lewis-review

  86. Thanks, Mary. Good review. I’ll check out the book.

    “On his later trips to Baghdad, Kelly would be confronted outside his hotel by Iraqi mothers thrusting dead babies in his face.” [from the book]

    Bloody hell. This is what Madeleine Albright thought was “worth it”. Basically, it was not her dead baby.

  87. “WTF is Suhaayl Saadist when we need a girl?” Craig Lover, sometime earlier in this thread.

    Do please explain. Is this a “Did we meet in California, no we met in St Louis” kind of thing? A speaking microwave, or a listening rock? Or is it just the ghost of Bobby Darin?

  88. Alaa al Aswany:

    ‘First it was Mubarak who trampled the rights of the people, then the military and now it’s the Muslim Brotherhood. I’m not really against the Brotherhood per se, rather against a state that wraps up fascism in religion.

    The Egyptian revolution will reject the Muslim Brotherhood, same as it didn’t tolerate the military and Hosni Mubarak before them. Our future lies ahead, and democracy is the only way forward. I think the Muslim Brotherhood is ultimately a fascist movement. Egyptian democracy has been trampled.’

    Read more: http://english.ruvr.ru/2013_07_01/Egypt-won-t-be-an-Islamic-Caliphate-Alaa-al-Aswani-6901/

  89. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Jul, 2013 - 7:16 pm

    (minutes ago) Icelandic Parliament denies vote on Wiki request before Summer recess. Wait until September…

    http://joyb.blogspot.com/2013/07/will-snowden-get-icelandic-citizenship.html

  90. http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/07/20137575614134310.html

    Rope-a-dope: The strategy of Egypt’s puppet masters
    The political mechanics of the mass protests on June 30, have been largely misrepresented by sections of the media.

    Walter Armbrust

    Media misrepresentations

    A larger point is that the rhetorical dynamic in the immediate aftermath of the Morsi regime’s fall has been misguided. The Western press was full of sombre meditations on the fall of an “electorally legitimate” regime and the apparent failure of a “democratic experiment.” In opposition to this, some of the most articulate voices among the many millions who marched on June 30 were angry at having their successful campaign against Muslim Brotherhood rule labelled as a “coup” rather than an on-going struggle for true democracy. But the coup vs. will of the people debate goes nowhere. It is better to put these terms to the side and acknowledge that among the diversity of interests that motivated people to enter the streets on June 30 there was significant input not just from the old regime, but also from the security state. This is not to say that Morsi’s opponents actually were nothing but filul, as his supporters often claimed. But alongside well-justified objections by Morsi’s opponents to the American media’s failure to understand what was happening in Egypt, a narrative crystalised of plucky youth challenging the Morsi regime by circulating a petition. It is important to move beyond this attractive image before it turns into another over-romanticised and ultimately distracting “Facebook Revolution” legend. The story of tamarrud as a brave act of resistance is by no means wrong, but neither is it sufficient to explain the current situation.

    …Walter Armbrust is Hourani Fellow and University Lecturer in Modern Middle East Studies at Oxford University.
    </blockquote?

    More at link http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/07/20137575614134310.html

  91. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/07/201374223725841263.html

    Groups condemn raids on Egypt TV channels

    Al Jazeera is demanding the release of staff detained by authorities as Mubasher Misr channel shutdown by army.

    Al Jazeera has demanded the release of a top staff member who was detained when Egyptian security officials raided the Mubasher Misr channel, shortly after Mohamed Morsi was ousted as president.

    Three other television channels, all deemed to be pro-Morsi by Egyptian authorities, were also shut down on Wednesday in a move condemned by rights groups and journalists.

    Mubasher Misr’s managing director Ayman Gaballah remains in custody. Four other staff members have been released.

    Global press news agency Associated Press Television News (APTN) was told not to provide Al Jazeera with any footage of the demonstrations in Egypt or any filming equipment, while the Cairo News Company was warned against providing broadcasting equipment.

    Al Jazeera Media Network’s acting Director General Mostafa Souag condemned the actions, saying “regardless of political views, the Egyptian people expect media freedoms to be respected and upheld.”

    “Media offices should not be subject to raids and intimidation. Journalists should not be detained for doing their jobs.”

    Al Jazeera Mubasher Misr, was prevented from broadcasting from a pro-Morsi rally in northern Cairo and its crew there was also detained.

    More at link http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/07/201374223725841263.html

  92. BrianFujisan

    5 Jul, 2013 - 9:28 pm

    The U.N at long last telling us what many have known for years and years… Isreali authorities are evil Genocidal cowards, at war with palestine’s children

    http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=10350

  93. karel (a conspiracy a day keeps idiocy away)

    5 Jul, 2013 - 9:30 pm

    dear all,

    like probably all of you I know fuck all about Egypt but love to write about it. Once I smoked an Egyptian cigarette but it was in a distant past and I can tell you nothing about its taste.

    Nevertheless, I have to praise Tech savage for the most reasonable and coherent contribution without wanting to say anything nasty about the rest. In my humble opinion it seems that it must have become apparent to most Egyptians that the morsi governemnt was a disater and they had a human right to demand a change perhaps hoping that it might turnout to be better next time. Whoever is denying them this hope is, in my eyes, a paternalistic fool. People like any change just for the sake of it. I certainly do. Although all my jackets have been perforated by generations of moths I enjoy swapping them now and then even though the one I may wear tomorrow is in no better state that the one I wear today.

  94. Do please explain. Is this a “Did we meet in California, no we met in St Louis” kind of thing? A speaking microwave,

    Ha, Haaa, I told you so!

    The speaking microwave is the worst kind of the torture weapons systems designed, on par with speaking intelligent toaster. Ask Lister who suffered the most, on his mission in deep space.

    The democratic Generals are now shooting the Egyptians far better than Mubarak used to shoot, with their most excellent shooting that is not going unrewarded too. The US aid is now back up and running, and Billy the piss head fourteen pints is droning on about “we must hold a party for the generals on the beech”!

    Well the Egyptians are enjoying all the democracy they can get from the barrel of the army shotguns and rifles. Whilst the medjia is no longer concerned with the huge numbers of the Egyptians out on the streets.

  95. doug scorgie

    5 Jul, 2013 - 10:34 pm

    Abe Rene
    5 Jul, 2013 – 1:52 pm

    “In principle, as Henry Kissinger said, “I don’t see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist because of the irresponsibility of its own people.” Substitute “Islamist” and the same applies.”

    “However I would prefer Communist or Islamist governments to be thrown out by their own people, which happily happened here.”

    Well Abe you have certainly “shown your hand”.

    You don’t believe in democracy either as is the case with Jemand.

    Can you explain how you think the world should be run?

  96. doug scorgie

    5 Jul, 2013 - 10:46 pm

    Jay
    5 Jul, 2013 – 2:45 pm

    @ Doug Scorgie

    “Democracy, wanxxxxxxs.“

    “Come in old boy sit down and tell us all about it“

    “I will ask you- how can we raise standards in a egalitarian society?”

    What are the “standards” that you think cannot be raised in an egalitarian society?”

  97. BBC, wonderful!!! Anybody see it? Jeremy Bowen in Egypt. He was reporting on a death due to the military takeover (though of course with the Boston Marathon you never really know if anyone’s died). On the first footage he’s stood there in the street with a few locals around him, and down his left cheek there is dried blood which has apparently come from the region of his left ear. I know reporting in war-torn zones is uncomfortable but who, in their right mind, advised him to do the report without first getting cleaned up. Why did a sensible man like Bowen agree to it. The message being portrayed was that reporters are vulnerable, (which of course they are) but not to clean him up before the report speaks little of news and much of drama. But hold. There is more. The next time Bowen appears he has a bandage, or some medical application, over his left ear. He looks like Van Gogh after Van Gogh attacked his ear and painted a picture of the bandaged ear. Oh my God! Is the drama department running the news now? Entertaining? Yes. Professional. Please draw your your own conclusions if the professionals don’t edit it out, as in this case, I think they should.

  98. talking microwaves?

    Back in the 70s, my husband (to be) picked up the radio of a local taxi service on a steel string guitar. Scared the shit out of both of us for a short while.

    We live in even more interesting times now.

  99. What are the “standards” that you think cannot be raised in an egalitarian society?”

    Certainly these “standards” need to be outlined.

    Unfortunate for the Egyptian Revolutionaries the political model of Muslim Brotherhood that was highly influenced by the Saudi and Qatari reactionary elements at its later stages, became unstuck. Although this outcome was precipitated/ensured by the US corralling of the Brotherhood into the current mess; through restriction of money flow into the Egyptian economy, and high rents for any potential borrowing by the Brotherhood.

    Ultimately poor Egyptians will be paying the price. through; stagnant economy, oppression, and a continuation of abuse of their human rights. After all US is only looking after zionistan, and Egypt cannot just decide to go it alone.

  100. Amazingly this Epetition has been accepted.

    It might be due to the spelling mistake on Edwards Snowden. Yes!

    http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/52312

  101. Goodonya John. I’ll tweet that.

  102. “Back in the 70s, my husband (to be) picked up the radio of a local taxi service on a steel string guitar. Scared the shit out of both of us for a short while. ”

    Which reminds me of a tale both historical and topical.

    After WWII the American embassy in Moscow was presented with a wooden replica of the American seal by the Russians. Inside was a radio transmitter with no wires, components or batteries. It was just a diaphragm and a copper rod, a mechanical radio transmitter. The Russians could direct a radio beam at the right frequency`for he copper rod and it would resonate and retransmit on that frequency with any sound in the room modulated on to it. It took the Americans decades to find it.

  103. I WOULD feed my family GM food, says Cameron as he tries to win over public on the issue

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2346233/I-WOULD-feed-family-GM-food-says-Cameron-tries-win-public-issue.html

    Cancer row over GM foods as study says it did THIS to rats… and can cause organ damage and early death in humans

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2205509/Cancer-row-GM-foods-French-study-claims-did-THIS-rats–cause-organ-damage-early-death-humans.html

  104. [Please excuse the OT and personal conversation]

    Ben wrote, “Just wonderin where is he and where you been?

    Hello Ben… hanging out, I guess. Haven’t heard from Clark, I’ll try to contact him. Thanks for the thoughts, hope all is well with you.

  105. I WOULD feed my family GM food, says Cameron

    Shades of John Selwyn Gummer, these low life bastards would sell their granny if there is enough dough in it for them. Evidently horse meat* injected with water and crappy hoof proteins is not enough, to kill us all in the way of reducing the pension costs.

    * What happened to the enquiry?

  106. “Please draw your your own conclusions if the professionals don’t edit it out, as in this case, I think they should. ”

    What’s the matter? A dose of reality too much for you to handle?

  107. “* What happened to the enquiry?”

    It fell at the first fence and had to be put down.

  108. Jeez, Kempe… your posts were pretty weak before. Now they barely appear to show signs of basic awareness.

  109. Dreolin,

    You’d be surprised.Even in 2013,if im giggin in a busy city area i regularly get taxis coming thru loud and clear on my amp.

    It’s pretty embarrassing in a Spinal Tap kinda way.

    Rock ‘n’ roll eh?

    “Taxi!”

    :.)

  110. BrianFujisan

    6 Jul, 2013 - 3:06 am

    Three cheers for Nicaragua and Venezuela

    “I have decided to offer humanitarian asylum to the young American, Edward Snowden, so that in the fatherland of Bolivar and Chavez, he can come and live away from imperial North American persecution,” said Maduro

    http://rt.com/news/maduro-snowden-asylum-venezuela-723/

  111. Chris Jones

    6 Jul, 2013 - 3:15 am

    You’ve got this the wrong way round Craig-surely you can’t be this naive? Who knows what if there is a hidden hand behind this rising too but its hard to argue with 14 million people. The ugly beast of nationalsim? Dont you support the rights of the Palestines,Uzbeks and Scots to self determination? Are you caught in the grips of critical theory again-the one that said all European sovereign states should be abolished no matter what….how liberal…

    One more point-stop paying attention to Assange-he is just another egotist and applemac warrior poster boy for nothing of much value-what of any true earthshattering insight has come out of Wikileaks? The guardian will say otherwise of course and their new poster boy Snowdon the ex soldier will pay thei wages for a few months until the next liberally acceptable poster boy

  112. Jives: You’d hear that with any RF setup. Try putting ferrous rings on unshielded leads which might be picking up unwanted signals. The very low-signal, non-amplified carriers are the most susceptible.

  113. BrianFujisan

    6 Jul, 2013 - 3:22 am

    Forgot to include these great words

    “He has told the truth, in the spirit of rebellion, about the US spying on the whole world,” Maduro said.

    “Who is the guilty one? A young man … who denounces war plans, or the US government which launches bombs and arms the terrorist Syrian opposition against the people and legitimate President Bashar al-Assad?”

    “Who is the terrorist? Who is the global delinquent?” added Maduro.

  114. Flaming June

    6 Jul, 2013 - 7:21 am

    Brian. Praise be for Presidents Maduro and Ortega for their humanity. Venceremos.

    John Yes noticed that about Bowen too. No comment from the news presenter. A normal person would have enquired what had happened to him and if he was alright.
    ‘It never happened etc – Pinter’

    Will sign the petition.

    Fedup Re GM. Had you seen this? We thought Spelman was bad enough. Paterson is toxic.

    Tory MP says pro-GM Environment Secretary Owen Paterson is ‘industry puppet’
    Richmond Park MP accused fellow party member of ‘nonsensical’ claims about GM benefits of GM technology

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-mp-says-progm-environment-secretary-owen-paterson-is-industry-puppet-8686133.html

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/owen-paterson-calls-for-gm-businesses-to-come-to-uk

  115. Flaming June

    6 Jul, 2013 - 7:27 am

    The BBC denies that the blockade of Gaza causes medicine shortages.

    Health Check, World Service, 4 October 2012: Finding by the Editorial Complaints Unit

    Complaint
    A listener complained that an item on the situation of people with kidney failure in Gaza gave the misleading impression that medical supplies and equipment were subject to the Israeli blockade, and that the item was misleading in other respects.

    Outcome
    In most respects the item was not misleading. However, the sentence “The blockade of Gaza for example has led to shortages of medicines and medical equipment” gave the impression that the Israeli blockade covered medical supplies, which is not the case.

    Partly upheld

    Further action
    In future, when commissioning reports from freelance reporters abroad, Healthcheck will ensure they take advice from the local BBC bureau before finalising the item.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/comp-reports/ecu/heltcheck

    The BBC ruling was reported by the Jewish Chronicle
    http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/109220/bbc-rules-gaza-complaint

    Please complain to the BBC’s Editorial Complaints Unit (ECU) ecu@bbc.co.uk giving your name and address!

    ~~~

    Furthermore, the people in Gaza do not even have use of the tunnels now since the Egyptian military demolished them.

  116. Flaming June

    6 Jul, 2013 - 7:37 am

    St Theresa will be popping the champagne corks this weekend. She obviously takes the word of the USUKIsNATO stooge, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, that he will get a fair trial.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1112229/abu-qatada-to-finally-be-deported-to-jordan

  117. Flaming June

    6 Jul, 2013 - 7:50 am

    ‘Bowen, a veteran of conflicts around the globe, said it was the first time he had been shot.

    As I helped his cameraman bandage his wounds, he said: “I was crossing the road when they opened fire.

    “I think it was a shotgun. I got two pellets in the leg and one in the ear. It came out of nothing.”

    Bowen, 53, added: “As the crowd got angrier and angrier it started to surge forward and someone opened fire straight away from the military side.

    “Before they had used any kind of teargas they resorted to live fire.

    “Initially I thought it was in the air and then I saw the weapons were levelled.

    “After that I saw a man went down. I saw the body, bloodied, being carried away.

    “We’d been hanging around filming, they fired some gas and the crowd scattered, and just as I was reaching the curb and I felt something hit the side of my head by my ear and my leg.

    “I’ve been in a lot of hairy situations as a reporter over many years but I have never been hit by anything.”

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/bbc-reporter-jeremy-bowen-shot-2029115

  118. The “Ugly Beast “ of popular revolution. How is that any form of change can be nationalistic, internationaliatic, secular. Etc.

    As with “standards“ it desire to work which standards come from, and control of the desire to work which ultimately effect standards and cause revolutions.

    Popular opinion is something organic whether cultural otherwise conceived egalitarian raising of standards can be organised if desired.

    What ever revolution in Eygpt they need concerning voice.

    Will the controllers listen?

  119. @John Goss. 11 50pm

    Thanks for setting up the petition.

    http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/52312

    I took a look 15 mins ago. “No of Signatures: 3″

    I then signed and clicked the confirmation email.

    For the next 15mins the number of signatures remained at 3.

    Finally it registers 4.

    Can the blog’s resident software experts explain if this delay is credible, or is it more likely that the total is being manipulated?

    There seems to be a consistent strand, when it comes to numbers, whether it’s deaths in Iraq, Us soldiers through Shannon, nubers demonstrating or signatures on a pro-whistleblower petition, that the keepers of the official narrative have a problem with numbers.

    Maybe Brand-New-Habba can shed some light on the anomaly.

  120. All those bloody “nubers demonstrating”.

    They should get a proper job. That’s what I say.

  121. Flaming June

    6 Jul, 2013 - 9:04 am

    Same experience Brian. Perhaps our names go via Cheltenham and then Dave has to give the final say so. Only joking Dave!

  122. Flaming June

    6 Jul, 2013 - 9:05 am

    LOL from the FAQ

    Why hasn’t my signature been added to the total on the petition?

    Once an e-petition has been signed, the updating of the number of signatures does not take place straight away. Instead, the signature total which appears on the site refreshes at regular intervals, rather than at the moment the signature is added.

  123. Eutelsat threatens satellite firms with US sanctions
    Press TV has obtained some of the letters, which Michel De Rosen, the French-Israeli CEO of Eutelsat, has written to satellite companies warning them against providing services to Iranian media.
    He has said that if European satellite companies do not comply with US sanctions against Iran’s national broadcasting corporation, their assets will be frozen by the government of the United States. De Rosen has also warned service providers that their officials will be denied entry into the US, if they broadcast Iranian channels.
    “Mr. De Rosen initially raised the issue of EU sanctions against Iran. But when I talked directly with the EU foreign policy chief’s spokesperson, Mr. Michael Mann, and aired his comments that EU sanctions did not apply to Iranian media, Mr. De Rosen suddenly changed the story,” said Hamid Reza Emadi, Press TV’s newsroom director. “All of a sudden, Mr. De Rosen starts focusing on US sanctions and completely forgets about the EU embargo that he so passionately talked about before,” he added….
    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/07/05/312346/eutelsat-steps-up-war-on-iran-media/

  124. @June. 9 05am

    Now why don’t I feel reassured?

    Brian Kibo.

  125. the revolution will not even be BLOGGED. couldn’t believe how many blogs failed to even cover the continuing revolution.

    MSM drove the narrative – first by ignoring the buildup, then by equating Pro & Anti Morsi protesters – LOL – when there were 20 million to 25,000, by some reports.

    “clashes between” blamed when MB killed protesters. bbc even claimed they didn’t know what they were protesting about, when they & the rest of the MSM have ignored all the grievances building up since Morsi was installed with our help.

    vurtually no MSM among the peaceful millions letting them speak for themselves; probably didn’t want the world to see the anti-obama anti-anne patterson banners while obama was on the african continent; no reporters in other major towns & cities, except for MB stronghold Nasr City.

    this is just stage two of the egyptian revolution; not perfect & may it may fail again but, when the West, Gulf States, Turkey, Jordan, Israel have been busy inserting MB in Libya, Egypt, Syria, i don’t think it takes a geopolitical genius to work out why the people revolted.

    tunisians are learning from tamarod; libyans have begun taking steps to remove the MB, even while knowing the MB will never go away now they’ve tasted power. good luck to them all.

  126. Flaming June

    6 Jul, 2013 - 9:51 am

    Sorry I called you Brian Kibo!

    Have just been for a lovely walk. Not too hot. The whole of a valley here below the North Downs has been planted with barley. It is just turning from green to a beautiful pale gold. The arable field through which I returned home was a blaze of yellow from the hawkweed.

    ~~~

    Good for Blatter here. I always think of him in connection with FIFA corruption.

    Blatter heads to Palestine for talks travel restrictions
    http://english.alarabiya.net/en/sports/2013/07/05/Blatter-heads-to-Palestine-for-talks-travel-restrictions.html

    Friday, 5 July 2013

  127. When Mubarak was kicked out the Egyptian constitution was altered, with broad agreement from all those who participated in the election, to prevent another dictator arising. One of the cornerstones of those changes was preventing the President from making laws without judicial accountability/approval. One of the first things Morsi did once he removed the Army’s official influence from his government was to repeal that law, allowing him to resume Mubarak’s role as totalitarian dictator. He betrayed the electorate, the process and (most importantly) the Army.

    This is why the talking heads are more concerned that democracy is upheld rather than support the justified removal of a religious extremists intent on taking Egypt down a road the people had already rejected. Allowing him to remain in power for the good of a so called democracy, when he has clearly betrayed everything he claimed to stand for in such a short space of time, serves only those who have done exactly the same here “the NHS is safe with us”, “we’re in it together”, “we will protect the poor and vulnerable” ad nauseum. The people here could learn a thing from the Egyptians.

  128. Dreolin at 12.06 am. Thanks for tweeting the Epetition concerning the US spying on us. I’ve done a short blog.

    http://johngossip.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/edward-snowden-and-interception-of.html

  129. Jay 4 Jul, 2013 – 10:30 am

    A very interesting ‘counter argument’ you present there. Any chance of providing something other than a totally pointless ad hominem next time, like some facts or actualities, to prove that you aren’t a complete tool?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_trolls

  130. Follow the money;

    “A perceptive look into all this came via a 2008 U.S.diplomatic cable released by WikiLeaks. The writer in the U.S. Embassy in Cairo ticked off the various businesses the military was involved in, and considered how the military might react if Egypt’s then president, Hosni Mubarak, were to lose power.

    The military would almost certainly go along with a successor, the cable’s author wrote, as long as that successor didn’t interfere in the military’s business arrangements.”

    http://barrymlando.com/https/barry-landosquarespacecom/2013/7/4/the-egyptian-armys-state-within-a-state

    Talking of money;

    http://www.almanar.com.lb/english/adetails.php?eid=100429&cid=31&fromval=1&frid=31&seccatid=91&s1=1

    (original FT article behind paywall)

  131. O/T again I’m afraid. Sorry. Thanks for the link BrianFujisan at 3.06 am.

    Here is another on the same subject of Venezuela offering Edward Snowden asylum. “I announce to the friendly governments of the world that we have decided to offer this statute of international humanitarian law to protect the young Snowden from the persecution that has been unleashed from the most powerful empire in the world,” the United States.”

    http://nsnbc.me/2013/07/06/maduro-venezuela-will-offer-snowden-political-asylum-as-head-of-st/

  132. @Doug Scorgie: You don’t believe in democracy..Can you explain how you think the world should be run?

    I believe that democracy should be the preferred system by default, and that movements in this direction are to be encouraged. However I also believe that dictatorships or regimes that would take away people’s freedoms should be prevented from coming to power, namely Communism, fascism and Islamism. Overthrowing Hitler, the Soviet Union, and Morsi (especially once he had made himself “Pharaoh” and introduced an Islamist constitution) were all good IMO.

    For applying the Kissinger principle in practice, I would say that civil and economic freedoms are an important touchstone. Thus Swedish socialism is not problematic. Venezuela under Chavez was becoming borderline IMO. As for Cuba, I wish the Bay of Pigs invasion had succeeded, but what’s done is done. Now it may be best to normalise relations with Cuba as America did with Vietnam, and encourage them to give more freedom to teir citizens.

  133. Flaming June

    6 Jul, 2013 - 12:38 pm

    The price of oil.

    RIP the 167 who died on this day 25 years ago in the Piper Alpha disaster. It was horrendous.

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/top-stories/piper-alpha-disaster-anniversary-film-announced-1-2917576

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_Alpha

  134. O/T

    M. Gove is such a didactic Gay

    “language in playgrounds that wasn’t effectively policed.”

    Nothing better to do, than teach the world how to behave, is he thinking he is the Education Secretary of the world now? Everyone knows how “Gay” that is!!!!

    PS I is not a homophone, in fact I have many friends who are “Gay”, and I have called them so!!! (I hope the readers would laugh as much as I have writing about this pressing matter for Minister of Education)

  135. If you weren’t watching, the Lions have beaten the Wallabies 41 – 16

    Stick a fork in it

  136. @Abe Rene. 11 46am

    I think you are a brave one, trying to persuade with the teachings of Henry Kissinger. (“Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac” 1973)

    For me somehow, the words “Kissinger” and “principle” don’t seem to belong in the same sentence.

    There must be a good grammatical reason.

    Or maybe it’s the impossible logic of it.

    Just plain tautological.

    As for democracy, I’m sure you will agree that democracy comes in many forms and the western military/industrial-controlled version has lost most of it’s credibility with anyone who cares to inform themselves.

    Before you swallow any more MSM opinions about Venezualan democracy you might enjoy Oliver Stone’s “South of the Border” and the brilliant Irish documentary “Inside the Coup”.

  137. After Egyptian Democracy Mk 1 I wouldn’t blame those on the streets for being wary of a repeat. The destruction by the army of the Gaza tunnels is an ominous sign given the strong popular support for the abused Palestinians.

    A couple of observations on how it can be:

    “Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard.”
    HL Mencken (1880 – 1956)

    “Democracy consists of choosing your dictators, after they’ve told you what you think it is you want to hear.
    Alan Corenk

    Whether it ends up as just another pro-Israel/US stitch-up or not will surely depend on how much support the generals get from the lower ranks.

    Venezuala has shown that once lower ranks give their allegiance to the population then the generals, corporate oligarchs and bishops lose their power.

    I wish the Egyptians well.

  138. I believe that democracy should be the preferred system by default, and that movements in this direction are to be encouraged.

    Is this from miss Ohio’s speech when she won her first beauty pageant?

    What democracy are we talking about? The current O’cracy brand we all are subjected to, is anything but what it says on the tin. To find the failed O’cracy subjects then pontificating how others should or should not live their lives, is a bit of a “does not compute” conundrum.

    Further considering that Hitler lived, way, way, back in the last century, and since then the war criminals in US have surpassed the tally of the dead he had chalked up by a factor of umpteen. This getting achieved in a state of perpetual war, that has been initiated to stop the domino effect across the planet of some trumped up and contrived menace or other. There seems to be little point of pulling the rickety old skeleton of the mustachioed Austrian painter, to make a point.

    Fascism, was defined by the other poster boy of propriety Il Duce:

    The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone

    Freedom of choice, Freedom of speech, Freedom of expression, as currently exercised in US won’t you agree?

    Best learn what these labels entail before using them perhaps. The notion that every system is wrong other than the only system prescribed by the good old US, itself is another fascist doctrine:

    empire demands discipline, the coordination of all forces and a deeply felt sense of duty and sacrifice: this fact explains many aspects of the practical working of the regime, the character of many forces in the State, and the necessarily severe measures which must be taken against those who would oppose this spontaneous and inevitable movement

    Finally “Islamism” or political arrangements derived from the Islamic principles, evidently ought to be rejected and replaced either with “christian/Judaic/atheistic/secular” values instead, so that O’cray can flourish as per the prescribed parameters outlined in the above principles set out.

    This is just fine and dandy for the resource stealing, gun toting apple pie loving marauders, but what is in it for their victim/target nations?

  139. It was of course Muslim Brotherhood member Morsi who replaced the anachronistic Chief-of-Staff Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, a Western Army stooge, by Abdul Fatah al-Sisi, a US trained intelligence officer.

    It is clear to me the West were mindful of Arab intensity and formulated a probability contrivance in case of revolt against Morsi that would then shift power back to the Egyptian army.

    The Egyptian army are tools of the CIA.

  140. “As for Cuba, I wish the Bay of Pigs invasion had succeeded…” Abe.

    That says it all, Abe. You’d like the CIA and the Mafia to be in control of a country.

    I agree about normalising relations, of course. It should’ve been done decades ago, but it’s ongoing hyper-power vindictiveness – ‘step out of line and we’ll freeze you out’.

  141. “… applying the Kissinger principle in practice…” Abe Rene.

    What, you mean death squads, torture, carpet bombing, systemic rape and the assassination of an elected president?

  142. Wrt Egypt, it seems it is Hobson’s Choice b/w various Right-wing autocracies/de facto elected or unelected dictatorships, all of which are US stooges. An ‘Algerian Civil War’ situation now may develop.

  143. Mark Golding said;

    West were mindful of Arab intensity and formulated a probability contrivance in case of revolt against

    How about:

    West were mindful of Arab intensity and formulated a probability contrivance in case of revolt against the rule of iniquitous stooges of the West ie Mubarak and sons, and allowed Morsi to be shoed-in as a stop gap, and a means of buying time. Post the austere of Mubarak and thereafter Tantawi, rule of Morsi period proved to be a great asset in dividing the Egyptian opposition, that in turn could lead to reinstatement of the next Western trained and trusted pair of hands at the helm.

  144. “However I also believe that dictatorships or regimes that would take away people’s freedoms should be prevented”

    Does that include corporate corrupted “democracies” ? In which policies are bought by buying/”funding” politicians ? Not much “people’s freedom” around when needed to oppose a paid for corporate vested interest.

    “As for Cuba, I wish the Bay of Pigs invasion had succeeded, but what’s done is done.”

    So you wished that a foreign military intervention had succeeded in overthrowing a popular revolution that had got rid of a corrupt & vicious one-man dictatorship who was selling out his own country to foreign interests, and committing horrendous human rights abuses against his own people ?!

    “and encourage them to give more freedom to teir citizens.”

    Don’t you think that trying to win back the freedoms that we have steadily been losing in the last few years, would put us in a better position to “encourage” others ?

  145. “Swedish socialism is not problematic”

    The Swedes must be relieved.

    “Venezuela under Chavez was becoming borderline IMO”

    Borderline what? Chavez won majorities of 60%. That’s not borderline, that’s called a clear democratic mandate.

  146. Flaming June

    6 Jul, 2013 - 2:53 pm

    Some unfunny jeering under the cover of satire on The News Quiz earlier from Ms Toksvig et al about Edward Snowden and his appeals for asylum and President Morales’ jet.

    ‘Who couldn’t Bolivia the way the US treated him this week?

    ‘Edward Snowden has applied for asylum in up to 12 different countries. I think that comes across as a bit needy……’ etc etc

    A satirical review of the week’s news, chaired by Sandi Toksvig. With Jeremy Hardy, Susan Calman, Jason Cook and Hugo Rifkind.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0368rf4

    Rifkind, Murdoch hack, is the son of the reliable stooge Sir Malcolm, chair Intelligence and Security Committee who goes right back to 1974 with Heath and then Thatcher who became party leader in 1975 and PM in 1979.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Rifkind

  147. Flaming June

    6 Jul, 2013 - 2:56 pm

  148. Faming June, thanks, I didn’t realise that about Hugo Rifkind. Yes, I listen into that show and often enjoy it, find it funny and clever, while driving (usually to work), though as with most such shows, there often seems to be a self-satisfied air of ‘metropolitan in-club’ about it. But I’m probably just a demonic ‘Darth Vader’ frustrated writer!

    But I did pick up on what you’re referring to about Snowden. They also attacked Murdoch, but this is a little akin to corporate humour, it seems to me, and might tend to reinforce power. It’s certainly not the Theatre of the Oppressed.

    I have to say – I’m sorry if this offends anyone – that I hardly ever tend to find the Scottish comedienne on it that funny – is that Calman? Some people have a good radio voice and others do not. The pitch and manner of her radio voice irritates me. I think a lot of her material seems laboured and the punch-lines don’t always deliver.

  149. @Passerby 2 11pm

    Thanks for putting that together.

    “…empire demands discipline, the coordination of all forces and a deeply felt sense of duty and sacrifice: this fact explains many aspects of the practical working of the regime, the character of many forces in the State, and the necessarily severe measures which must be taken against those who would oppose this spontaneous and inevitable movement…”

    Il Duce sure saw how that bit worked. And he had the confidence and charisma to expect and receive from enough Italians to assume Status AA++, as “The One who has Everything Worked Out”.

    Primate’s hardwired fatal flaws. A tendency to defer to high status and the malleability to be controlled by conformity and fear.

    Well illustrated by Attenborough in “The Life of Primates”.

    I remember one sequence which starts with the classic mugshot of a blissed-out japanese snow monkey above the steamy water of a hot-spring pool. After a few moments, that give a sense of the zen stillness of the scene, the camera slowly zooms out.

    At first the other five or so aristocratic bathers can be seen, then the burly hench-monkeys patrolling the pool edge for feeding and mating privilages, and finally the lumpen-primatariat, about thirty sad little wretches sitting hunched up with cold amongst the snow-strewn boulders, accepting their place in primate order.

    More musings from Dr Haider Shah on the primate behaviour theme.

    http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2011%5C09%5C24%5Cstory_24-9-2011_pg3_6

    Victims waiting for the next war-cult to arrive.

    How many times are we human’s going to follow these roads to hell, sure of deluded certainties fed them by corporate media narratives?

  150. Doug Scorgie  - 

    “So Jemand you are one of those right-wing wankers that only believes in democracy when it gives the result you want. … If I’m wrong please let me and the other posters know what your stance on democracy is.”

    I’m so sorry, Doug (anti-caucasian), but you are wrong – I am none of those things you regularly accuse me, and others, of. You might want to read Craig’s recent comment regarding falsely accusing commentators of motives etc. 

    I also don’t need to state my “stance” on democracy for you or “other posters” whom you presume to represent, because you are nothing to me.

    Maybe you would like to elaborate on your uniquely succinct “democracy is democracy” theory. Was that the title of your thesis paper with an online university?

  151. And Abe, supporting the Bay of Pigs operation is not ‘supporting democracy’. I mean, the USA was supporting dictatorships in ‘Latin’ America for many decades and Cuba was a prime example. The Bay of Pigs was an attempt to restore the rule of the Mafia/CIA/Batista. So to claim that the Bay of Pigs was an attempt to bring democracy to Cuba is like claiming Jack the Ripper was a feminist.

    In fact, Castro was not a committed Communist at the time of the Cuban Revolution. He was a self-determination nationalist. He wanted good relations with the USA but was rejected because they wanted full spectrum exploitation as they’d had before. And so, Castro was driven by the USA into the waiting arms of the USSR.

  152. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Jul, 2013 - 4:48 pm

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324399404578583932317286550.html#articleTabs=article

    “Egyptians would be lucky if their new ruling generals turn out to be in the mold of Chile’s Augusto Pinochet, who took power amid chaos but hired free-market reformers and midwifed a transition to democracy. If General Sisi merely tries to restore the old Mubarak order, he will eventually suffer Mr. Morsi’s fate.”

    Yes. This is the prefect (sic) solution.

  153. Cute & very smart little Egyptian ;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeDm2PrNV1I&feature=share

  154. Flaming June

    6 Jul, 2013 - 5:48 pm

    Afraid that the name of Susan Calman has never registered with me Suhayl. I see her Dad is the well known chief medical officer first of Scotland and then of England. Sir Kenneth Calman.

    http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/politics/susan-calman-death-threats-for-independence-satire-1-2914670

    The bunch on the News Quiz are rather too precious.

    ~~~

    What a stench is arising from the dirty tricks now being disclosed that followed Stephen Lawrence’s murder. How his poor mother has stuck with the case, goodness knows.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/five-police-forces-investigated-over-alleged-stephen-lawrence-smear-campaign-8691089.html

  155. Flaming June

    6 Jul, 2013 - 5:55 pm

  156. Flaming June

    6 Jul, 2013 - 6:00 pm

    The ex IAEA head and US/UN place person is about to be named as the interim prime minister of Egypt according to Reuters.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_ElBaradei

  157. Kinoh Noh and Flaming June thanks for the information and for signing the Epetition. I’ve added a photo to my blog which might help the numbers which are now in double figures. At least it should raise a smile. These things can snowball.

    http://johngossip.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/edward-snowden-and-interception-of.html

    It is in all our interests to sign this. It is in all our interests to try and get our friends to sign it too. So sign and spread please.

  158. “Afraid that the name of Susan Calman has never registered with me Suhayl. I see her Dad is the well known chief medical officer first of Scotland and then of England. Sir Kenneth Calman.” Flaming June.

    I didn’t know that, either. Thanks again. Gosh, is everybody somebody’s son or daughter? If you see what I mean. Britain really is like that, still – increasingly, again.

  159. http://blogs.aljazeera.com/liveblog/topic/egypt-21121

    ElBaradei #Egypt’s new PM. “Failed to win through the ballet box, needed to be installed by the military” was chant on #NassrCity #Egypt
    6:17 PM – 6 Jul 2013

  160. “Afraid that the name of Susan Calman has never registered with me Suhayl. I see her Dad is the well known chief medical officer first of Scotland and then of England. Sir Kenneth Calman.”

    Maybe it’s best not to take humour too seriously Mary.

    I must say that what it said in the link about her getting death threats from Scots Nationalists and being called a self loathing Scot is somewhat disturbing.

  161. OT BREAKING: Boeing 777 Crashes in San Francisco. Reported to be making emergency landing.

  162. Britain does not play with Islam, the religion and belief of millions; Britain secretly and covertly plays with Islamism or political Islam. Political Islam, is an altogether different creature from the spiritual interpretation of Muslim life as contained in the Five Pillars of Islam.

    The British direction to America found political Islam to be a convenient partner during each stage of the US empire building project in the Middle East, from its early entry into the region to its gradual military encroachment, to its expansion into an on the ground military presence, and finally to the emergence of the US as an army of occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan and covertly in Libya and Syria.

    This present situation, the deceptive arms length British intervention in Syria seems insurmountable, overwhelming, forget it. Not so; knowledge unites and culture connects us, the people. That connection and the power of intention can force the impossible to become achievable.

    Intention can settle the Palestinian-Israeli conflict in a manner that guarantees justice for the Palestinians; an independent state that is geographically and economically viable, tied to the withdrawal of illegal Israeli settlements, an Israeli return to its 1967 borders, and a stable and equitable division of Jerusalem.

    That, more than any other action, would remove a global casus belli for the Islamic right.

    Intention can dismantle U.S. military bases in the Persian Gulf and facilities in Saudi Arabia, force a sharp reduction in the visibility of the U.S. Navy, US military training missions, and US arms sales and distribution to terrorists.

    Intention can fragment British and American visions of democracy, where freedom and justice are the wrappings of intrusion and the empowerment of serfs.

    Intention can force Britain and America to abandon their propensity to make bellicose warlike and hostile threats directed at nations in the Middle East.

    The Internet is our tool our hand-shake our embrace.

  163. http://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/AAR214/history/20130706/0730ZZ/RKSI/KSFO

    Asiana 214 (Track inbound flight)
    AAR214 · “Asiana” (all flights)
    Incheon Int’l (RKSI / ICN)

    San Francisco Intl (KSFO)
    Terminal I

    Live closeup of crash now on CNN

  164. https://path.com/p/1lwrZb

    I just crash landed at SFO. Tail ripped off. Most everyone seems fine. I’m ok. Surreal…
    — David Eun at San Francisco International Airport (SFO) (Airport)

    Looks like most passengers survived.

  165. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Jul, 2013 - 9:37 pm

    Mark @ 8:13

    Conquistador……….

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F945LQG6fuA

  166. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Jul, 2013 - 9:41 pm

    ‘I’d love to change the World’ TYA

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzrUqAtUcpU

  167. If it were fact that a jumbo-jet fell out of the sky, somewhere or the other every single day, year after year for the last 100 years, would you continue to fly?

    Yet a similar if not more number of people have been killed day-after-day, year-upon-year in the last century or so in wars where human beings kill their own species, other human-beings. It hasn’t stopped war. Activist’s protests hasn’t changed that. We each have to ask ourselves the question WHY? WHY do human beings continue to kill each other? The quest for an answer lies very, very deep — inwardly. How many people ask themselves this question and work hard sincerely to understand the whole process of how this comes to be, how this has come to pass? The future is the past.

  168. Two short clips of plane on fire at San Francisco airport after crash landing. Reports that all passengers and crew are safe.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dFtmSybpuw&feature=youtu.be

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqhYbkhaqy4&feature=youtu.be

  169. Flaming June

    6 Jul, 2013 - 10:11 pm

    Fred When I said that Susan Calman had never registered with me, I meant to say that I have never heard of her!

  170. Flaming June

    6 Jul, 2013 - 10:16 pm

    There is no show without Punch.

    Egyptian army had no choice over move to topple Morsi, says Tony Blair
    Alternative to military intervention was a country in chaos, says former prime minister

    Toby Helm and Martin Chulov

    The Observer, Saturday 6 July 2013 21.22 BST
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/07/egypt-army-morsi-tony-blair

    [..]
    Taking a different approach to both President Obama and William Hague, who have expressed reservations over the military takeover, Blair makes clear that, overall, he believes it was the right move. “I am a strong supporter of democracy. But democratic government doesn’t on its own mean effective government. Today efficacy is the challenge.” Having taken this country to war in Iraq in 2003 despite huge public opposition, including a march by more than a million people through London, Blair now argues that shows of public unrest such as that in Egypt – fuelled and organised through social media – cannot be ignored.

    “This is a sort of free democratic spirit that operates outside the convention of democracy that elections decide the government. It is enormously fuelled by social media, itself a revolutionary phenomenon.

    “And it moves very fast in precipitating crisis. It is not always consistent or rational. A protest is not a policy, or a placard a programme for government. But if governments don’t have a clear argument with which to rebut the protest, they’re in trouble.”

    [..]

  171. Ken Calman (as he was known to everyone then) used to give us lectures at university in the mid-1980s in Glasgow; he’s an oncologist and was an excellent lecturer. He seemed like a pleasant, approachable guy. More recently, he chaired a commission on Scottish Devolution which was opposed by the SNP; hence, possibly the context for the seeming viciousness of the reaction to his daughter’s comments/jokes on the subject. Fred, it’s not at all disturbing, it’s silly, plays into the ‘dour Scot’ stereotype and no doubt was excellent publicity for Ms Calman. After all, she’s not exactly Jerry (‘Gobshite’) Sadowitz.

    Mark, 8:13pm, today – excellent post.

  172. ATC audio http://wandr.me/Audio/AAR214-KSFO-Crash.mp3

    Explains the original (incorrect) report that the pilot declared an emergency prior to landing. Amazingly Asiana 214 declared an emergency after landing. ATC were in communication with the crew after it came to a stop.

    Looks like they just came in just too damned low. They came in for a visual approach as ILS was apparently not available due to “upgrades in progress”. Seconds before the incident ATC comms shows the pilots thought everything was fine.

    Some reports say they may have tried to gain some more height at the very last moment.

  173. ‘At least 1 killed, 60 reported missing as runaway Canada oil train explosion forces town evacuation (VIDEO, PHOTOS)’

    http://rt.com/news/quebec-canada-train-fire-741/

  174. “ATC audio”

    I had heard that, Anon, and I swear I don’t see how those guys understand each other … I suppose it’s an acquired skill …

  175. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Jul, 2013 - 10:51 pm

    I was going to register for commenting on Sibel Edmonds ‘Boiling Frogs’ until I got to the page which REQUIRES payment? Has anyone seen this crap before? I don’t cotton to paywalls. If you have a tip-jar/paypal ok. Voluntary is ok, but this……….

  176. I doubt the tower understood much either in real-time other than the callsign and eventual confirmation from Asiana 214 that they understood that response was on the way. The signal was very weak and it is a miracle they were transmitting at all. I think I can make out bits more of it but as CNN is sticking with “GARBLED” I’ll stick with that as well.

  177. The thing that struck me about footage of the plane-crash was the lack of a tail-fin anywhere near the plane. My speculation is centring on this. I am pleased there are only two reported deaths at the moment, though for two families this is going to devastate their summers. Ironically I have just finished an article on the Lockerbie mid-air explosion that caused the deaths of 270 people, one of them being the UN commissioner to Namibia, Bernt Carlsson, who was in the process of bringing multinationals who were exploiting Namibia’s natural resources, as well as its workers, to justice. The UN prosecution was inexplicably dropped after Carlsson’s death. Carlsson was another whistle-blower who died in an “accident”. More later on this. Of course I am not trying to draw a parallel between the crash at San Francisco airport and Lockerbie.

    Sweden, a former model of human-rights and peace initiatives has been turned round by public relations’ companies like Prime, with the blessing of Karl Rove, the man who rigged the election that got George W Bush illegally elected, through his electronic voting system. So if the numbers of people signing the Epetition for removing US spy stations from UK soil appears to be stagnating that might be due to external influences.

    http://johngossip.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/edward-snowden-and-interception-of.html

  178. Approach slope of yesterday’s landing of AAR 214 compared to today’s crash http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/BOhIDCWCUAApHFV_zps37237b1c.jpg

    From pprune forum member “Paper Tiger”

  179. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Jul, 2013 - 11:59 pm

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/venezuela-nicaragua-talk-asylum-edward-snowden/story?id=19592860#.UdihQeDTKFJ

    “There is also the private-flight option. Reports last week quoted the cost of a private plane to Ecuador to be more than $200,000 on one of the few private jets that could make the trip without refueling. Similar flights to Venezuela or Nicaragua would presumably be only a bit less.”

    I’d kick-in a few shekels…

  180. @Suhayl Saadi

    Just think about what you are saying here. There isn’t anything silly about death threats. It isn’t about playing into stereotypes and it isn’t about publicity.

    It’s just about threats and intimidation.

  181. The thing that struck me about footage of the plane-crash was the lack of a tail-fin anywhere near the plane.

    Lack of tail-fin? It’s an absolute effing miracle so much of the rest of the plane is intact at the speed it slammed into the ground. Looks like only a very last second application of power got them over land. Last transmitted track-log was “climb”.

  182. BrianFujisan

    7 Jul, 2013 - 12:27 am

    OT’ish
    Attempted Setup of Luke Rudkowski

    i’ve been hearing of more of the elite’s Lowest of the Low, dirty tricks to catch out Alternative media journalist’s, and whistle blowers, first it was allegations of Rape, now they are planting Child Porn on Target computers.

    I wonder who’s children the bastards don’t give a fuck about planting around the globe.

    we know how evil the establishment are with all the carnage they have been causing just non stop really for the last decade or so, and always blood thirsty for more, And they blood letting gets ever More Ghastly – ( Syria )

    but this sicking child porn weaponry they have been using, leaves one just numb,

    Luke Rudkowski of WeAreChange.org received an email from an anonymous sender claiming to be a Bilderberg whistleblower with attached photos from inside the 2013 Bilderberg meeting at the Grove Hotel in Watford, England. The email was sent to his personal email address that he has had since high school, not one of his work or WeAreChange email addresses. Luke opened the email from another computerand it stated that the person wanted Luke to break the story so he was sending him these photos exclusively and specifically stated that Luke needed to download the photos. Fortunately before downloading, Yahoo gives a preview of the photos and the photos were actually graphic child pornography. Luke has had his computer searched by forensics when going into Canada to cover the G20 when they searched him and interrogated him for hours, something like this could happen again when we come back to the U.S. from travelling Europe. Had this been the case, even with deleting, they would still find the images. There would be no understanding of the true story and he would be facing a felony charge. Besides that also completely jeopardizing his work, reputation and livelihood. We wanted to make this public for Luke‘s safety and also for people to be aware that this kind of thing happens. We do not know who this was, all we know is that it is so important for anyone in this line of work to remain extremely vigilant.

    THE EMAIL ADDRESS WAS s27du23d@tormail.org. IF ANYONE CAN HELP FIND OUT WHO THIS PERSON IS, IT WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.

  183. Hearing that this Quebec oil train crash may be worse than reported up to now.

    http://www.theoildrum.com/node/10073#comment-969405

    Leanan

    Holy guacamole. It’s bad. Really, really bad. Only one person confirmed dead, but a hundred still missing, a thousand evacuated, and the town “cut in half as if by a knife” because of the fires in the downtown area.

    “Leanan” is Oil Drum “staff”

  184. Ben @ 9:37

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb3iPP-tHdA

    “And although my eyes were open they might have well have been closed…”

  185. Fred

    She added: “If we could stop the random name-calling, the swearing, the death threats (real or otherwise) then perhaps we could get somewhere.

    A satirical complains about death threats “real or otherwise”. Hmm…

    http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/7305-death-threat-comedienne-refused-to-appear-on-newsnight-scotland

    ‘Death threat’ comedienne refused to appear on Newsnight Scotland
    12
    Some online commentators have questioned whether death threats were received at all and have asked the comedienne for evidence. There have also been questions over claims by Ms Calman of “a blog which is pretty abusive towards me”, with many people claiming to be unable to find such a blog.

    Newsnet Scotland has contacted the Scotsman newspaper asking if they had seen evidence of the death threats.

    Ms Calman’s facebook page has since been taken down.

    In a tweet to Ms Calman, Newsnet Scotland condemned unequivocally any and all online abuse and threats. We also asked the comedienne to clarify the nature of the alleged death threats, but have yet to receive a reply.

  186. satirical complains

    satirical comedienne complains

    But anyway, just to be clear: I’m all in favour of being against imaginary non-real death threats. As well as real ones obviously.

  187. BrianFujisan
    7 Jul, 2013 – 12:27 am

    Very important post Brian thank-you. GCHQ special division P666 – (is that the devil’s porn) specialise, also terrrror is used.

    I had an email ‘advising’ I would be shot dead if I left my house after 8pm. The email was routed via Pakistan, the IP was from a ‘Chinese’ block allocation.

    Edward should have made that very clear to us…

  188. Suhayl said, “…and so, Castro was driven by the USA into the waiting arms of the USSR.

    While absolutely correct, the point deserves expansion. Any government not “playing ball” (i.e. acting as a client state), and failing to be a stooge for exploitation of its people and natural resources on behalf of corporate America, will be termed as an unfriendly administration.

    If the people are behind that government, having enthusiastically supported a move to direct the resources of their country to the majority of the people, it may be deemed that the entire nation is “going communist”. This is where useful idiots like old Abe come in, nodding in agreement when suggestions like those of Kissinger are aired – old Abe would doubtless also agree that Vietnam villages had to be destroyed in order to save them.

    Tiny countries are a particular threat, because they can demonstrate how the masses can fair well given more even distribution of resources. If tiny countries can show healthcare, education, wealth distribution and power sharing can actually work well, then this is a massive threat to much more wealthy countries where there still exists grinding poverty. Not to mention, horror at the idea of fair distribution among the investor classes.

    In the case of Castro, as with many others, he was actually forced to either accept assistance from the USSR, or abandon the revolution altogether, or to let his people be utterly destitute. The US allowed no other option. Cuba is a tiny country. They have to trade to survive – the US neither would trade with it, nor would they allow any “allies” to trade. Left with no option, such countries turn to the only possibility left, which allows the US to shriek and gasp, “They’re turning to the commies!!”. Shock and horror. Now we can really turn the guns on them.

    What a pitiful, tiny stooge old Abe is – parroting this same washed out line decades after being so discredited.

  189. From ATC recording

    Departing Aircraft (United 285?): “We may need a few more minutes – just a heads up

    ATC: “United 85(?) hold short of runway 28 left. Advise when ready.”

    I think the crew on the ground about to take off saw this coming. That “heads up” was about 5-10 seconds from impact.

  190. 6 july – Former British MP condemns media ban on Iranian channels
    Former British Conservative MP Derek Conway condemned the decision by the international Satellite providers to take dozens of Iranian channels, including Press TV, off the air.
    Speaking on Press TV’s weekly debate program Comment, Conway said, “I just wonder as someone who’s been involved in politics for 40 years of my life, how you can preach about freedom of speech, if you don’t encourage it”.
    You don’t have to like what Iran says. What people have to say is of interest and you listen and maybe you disagree, maybe you go somewhere else for a view, it’s called freedom of speech”, he added. ..

    Iranian officials say they are determined to take legal action against the illegal media ban and are preparing to take the case to the United Nations (UN).
    Press TV and other Iranian satellite channels have been taken off the air regardless of mutual contracts and agreements in several Western countries including Britain, France, Germany and Spain.
    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/07/06/312544/exuk-mp-slams-ban-on-iranian-channels/

  191. yet this is the Norman Pattiz-founded Alhurra western/zionist propaganda channel!

    ABC America – Israelis Strip-Search Arab Journalist at US Party
    The U.S.-funded Alhurra network said Thursday that one of its cameramen was interrogated and strip-searched by Israeli security men while covering a July 4 party at the U.S. ambassador’s residence near Tel Aviv.

    The Arab satellite channel had coordinated with the Israeli prime minister’s office to cover the event on behalf of the international media. Ambassador Dan Shapiro, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and other VIPs were in attendance. But when cameraman Samer Jallad arrived, he said he was detained for questioning, ordered to remove his shoes and sit in the sun for more than half an hour, and then taken to a room where he was forced to remove his pants for a body inspection. He said he was held for more than 90 minutes before he was permitted to enter…

    Jallad, who said he has covered Netanyahu on many occasions, is a Palestinian from east Jerusalem who holds full Israeli residency rights and has a government-issued press card…

    “We find it especially shameful that a staffer of a U.S.-funded network would be the victim of racial profiling at an official U.S. event celebrating American Independence Day,” the Foreign Press Assoc said…

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/israelis-strip-search-arab-journalist-us-party-19581321?#.UdgqxKwr9y0

  192. There have been no details given of the alleged threats to Ms. Calman following the second last episode of the last series of News Quiz, the whole thing had the whiff of a stunt about it from start to finish, it was initiated by Miles Jupp and it should have been edited out of the transmitted program and Jupp banished, along with other right-wing twits like Rifkind and Finkelstein being given their marching orders back to Conservative Central Casting Orifice. As far as I am aware there has not been a mite of substantiation and if true it would surely have – should have – become a police matter. This smeary story never got off the starting block, despite the big bad BBC itself knee deep in the smelly plot thinking again that it ‘the institution’ is itself the news, rather than the real word outside their over-spun lovey-bubble, this time tragi-comically dragging along some other bad news outlets all to eager to serve the inglorious union that keeps these publishers afloat and these pretendy papers first among the dangerous playthings in the quislings’ toy-boxes. The media is never so ridiculous as when caught smelling their own farts in the glare of a full moon.

    I can just about forgive Flaming June for posting a link to the Scotsman story which, like all of their effusions is in the category of remaindered imaginative fiction, with added infinite improbability; the source cited desperately wanted for comparision with reality, falling far below usual FJ standards. Fred however is no innocent abroad: emerging from some cave, with matted locks and his once fine garb reduced to rags, clutching tightly a sheaf of well-thumbed last season’s newsprint, some slightly soiled with indeterminate stains of organic origin, and has clipped out this very piece with his bare gnashers, and though now shaped like a pie crust, this article had fired a laggard neuron or two in his noggin -he thinks he scents something, his hobby horse is set a-rockin, knees-trembling, this new scent it mixes with the odours emanating from his full library of learned chip wrappers as they fly in all directions. It’s the holey-grail of a discarded smear campaign -ripe for reanimation, ‘McEureka’ he cries.

    Pungent gaseous media emissions, they drift for many miles backwards and forwards, in all directions, collect especially in low places and take you unawares –don’t succumb. This non-story has been so discussed to death in Independence forums, the story is old and tiresome. Ms. Calman has a rather hyperbolic style with a porous border delimiting fact from farrago, she did once describe a bus trip from Glasgow to Somewhere as ‘her Vietnam’!

  193. Mister Clapper's lapbone

    7 Jul, 2013 - 3:16 am

    Re Luke Rudkowski, that setup looks more likely to be an attack on tormail, a boon to mankind (try it out!), than on Icke’s gang, who have made themselves enormously useful to the permanent state by garnishing awkward facts with easy-mock lizard overlords.

  194. “I had an email ‘advising’ I would be shot dead if I left my house after 8pm. The email was routed via Pakistan, the IP was from a ‘Chinese’ block allocation.” Mark

    This sounds a little like Zerzetsen (see also under Roderick Russell). Mind you, perhaps it was the same people who allegedly made the “death threats” against Ms Calman.

    Glenn, 2:08am, 7.7.13: Wrt Cuba/imperialism, yes, agree.

    Cryptonym, 3:02am, 7.7.13: Interesting. Yes, it seems likely to have become very useful for the anti-independence lobby. So if someone did post ‘death threats’, one would have to ponder on just who that might’ve been.

    Fred, at the Witching Hour: I did think about what I wrote, earlier, as I do about everything I write, since this is a public forum and I am a (sort of) semi-public figure not using a different name.

    Perhaps, though, we ought to have a high index of suspicion, given the political and entertainment contexts (which, unless Mark Golding has become a stand-up comic and unless his father is chairing a commission which, it has been argued, was an attempt to help stymie independence, are unlikely to apply to him). If one is against Scottish independence, one might well see the ‘Calman’ alleged incident as useful ‘comms’/PR/propaganda with which to tar the pro-independence lobby.

    And finally, after all, Calman may well be a lovely person, just like her dad, and I take my hat off to anyone who can stand up on stage make anyone laugh night after night (it’s not an easy job), but she’s not exactly Lenny Bruce.

  195. Flaming June

    7 Jul, 2013 - 7:52 am

    Oddie. The treatment of the cameraman Samer Jallad is appalling.

    This retired Israeli general who once escaped arrest at Heathrow after a tip off, now decides not to risk coming here despite assurances of immunity.

    http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9651:suspected-war-criminal-doron-almog-cancels-uk-visit-despite-offer-of-immunity-by-uk-government&catid=145:in-focus

  196. The nationalists are really showing their true colours on this one, seems the victim of the crime is guilty unless proved innocent.

    I think it is obvious that death threats “real or otherwise” means death threats made by someone intending to carry them out and those which are empty threats. Yet in the Nationalist mind it means something different, they imply it means the victim made it up. If she appears on TV regarding the matter she is publicity seeking and if she doesn’t she has something to hide.

    Bullying and intimidation are Nationalist tactics, you just have to read this blog to see that. Those are the tactics of Nationalism everywhere. Complain about the bullying and intimidation and you will be demonised.

    You want evidence?

    “Fred however is no innocent abroad: emerging from some cave, with matted locks and his once fine garb reduced to rags, clutching tightly a sheaf of well-thumbed last season’s newsprint, some slightly soiled with indeterminate stains of organic origin, and has clipped out this very piece with his bare gnashers, and though now shaped like a pie crust, this article had fired a laggard neuron or two in his noggin -he thinks he scents something, his hobby horse is set a-rockin, knees-trembling, this new scent it mixes with the odours emanating from his full library of learned chip wrappers as they fly in all directions. It’s the holey-grail of a discarded smear campaign -ripe for reanimation, ‘McEureka’ he cries.”

    There is your evidence of Nationalist bullying and intimidation.

  197. Flaming June

    7 Jul, 2013 - 8:33 am

    Egypt crisis: Oil giants BP and BG Group withdraw expat staff as violent clashes erupt
    Oil giants BP and BG Group have pulled about 160 expatriate staff out of Egypt as violent clashes erupt across the country.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/10163935/Egypt-crisis-Oil-giants-BP-and-BG-Group-withdraw-expat-staff-as-violent-clashes-erupt.html

    Note the LNG contributions to Egypt from Qatar.

  198. Yes, I agree, Fred, 8:18am, the caveman image deployed by Cryptonym was a bit heavy and personal. Such things ought to be avoided. Still, it’s so very ridiculous and cartoonish, it’s rather silly; Fred Flintstone, yes, ha, ha, blah, blah, blah. Crytonym should be cyber-whipped six-and-a-half times with a thick, black leather thong by a dominatrix dressed as a lizard. At least you’re not being accused of being a “ziofuckwit” or of wearing a tutu (not that there’s anything instrinsically wrong with wearing a tutu). Still, you’re quite right, ad hominems best avoided, as Craig advised.

    Speaking for myself, I am not a nationalist, I ahve a natural repulsion for flags and national anthems, and having been mildly opposed to it for many years, nowadays I keep an open mind about Scottish independence, though now it might be only way to minimise the damage of fundamentalist neoliberalism. I have little innate faith that our politicians won’t U-turn on most important thkngs (see also under NATO, Nukes…).

  199. Oddie, 7 Jul, 2013 – 2:32 am. It is because PressTV is reporting on news stories the owners of mainstream media outlets do not want you to see. The Bilderberger, Richard Branson, does not allow Russia Today on Virgin, to which I subscribe (but am thinking of leaving). It’s available on Freeview. The trouble is all the cables are Virgin and I could do without the hassle.

  200. Unfair to smear the move towards secularism. Secularism in the region is a logical and rational choice.
    Secularism would protect all faiths and none under the rule of law, in stark contrast to the various religious regimes that do not protect citizens of different faiths and of no faith.
    Unfair and misguiding to draw a connection between modern secularism and nationalism.

  201. It is because PressTV is reporting on news stories the owners of mainstream media outlets do not want you to see.

    You bet. US Foreign Asset Control Dpt. is hot on the tail of PressTV to stop it from ruining the bubble that the Western mejdia have so carefully built up around their audiences, keeping these poor audiences in near complete state of ignorance.

    Although an arch ziofuckwit Adam Szubin heading the AFCD, to begin with was coordinating his war on freedom of speech/press/expression through his mate Michel de Rosen, the French-Israeli CEO of Eutelsat (Europe’s satellite giant). De Rosen had been sending all manner of nasty letters with threats of hell fire and brimstones to other satellite owner operators in Europe and elsewhere. Informing these other companies about the EU sanctions on someone supposedly in charge of PressTV. This by default then had been made out to be an EU sanction on PressTV as a whole.

    However When EU commission was approached by the “Sanctioned Chap”, EU responded; there wre no Sanctions against PressTV! This fact however has not deterred the shameless ziofuckwit Michel de Rosen, who has changed his letter from EU sanctions to US sanctions in a heartbeat.

    This is the kind of gaming the system that these ziofuckwit bastards have been busy getting away with, while the world has sat by idle, and tried to reason and understand/explain away the supremacist, racist, and murderous motives of the ziofuckwits, all in the best possible way.

    ====

    At least you’re not being accused of being a “ziofuckwit”

    What are you on about?

  202. fedup, 11:08am, 7.7.13:

    It’s like Monty Python and “the Spanish Inquisition”!

    “Zio… No, I won’t say it. Z-z-z-z… I will not say it. Ziofu… I most definitely am not going to say it! No, I didn’t say it. No, not me. Must’ve just come through the ether.”

  203. Last month astronomers reported discovered three planets, similar to Earth, orbiting around a single star which may be able to support life.

    Researchers estimate there could be as many as 100 billion planets similar to the Earth in our galaxy, the Milky Way.

    Humanity has always got it “right”: Earth is flat, Earth is the centre of the universe, Sun goes around the Earth, Earth is the only planet with water, Earth is the only planet with life, Earth and its resources belong to a handful few wankers because they have bought the biggest army on the Earth!

    Whilst we are witnessing the mass murder of human beings, and the claims of; supremacy, secularism is good, religion is bad, human beings are crap, human beings destroy the Planet, ……. There is only one hundred thousand million other planets that don’t have water, are not centre of the universe, and do not have life on these.

    Is any of our killing technologies capable of repelling any other galactic marauders claiming to be the masters of universe, or have we just learned to beat on human beings, in a fashion after our ancestors; the monkeys, chimps, and the apes?

    =======

    It’s like Monty Python and “the Spanish Inquisition”!

    No its not!

    Your intonation of being; ” accused of being a “ziofuckwit””.

    Thanks for the laugh though.

  204. “It is because PressTV is reporting on news stories the owners of mainstream media outlets do not want you to see. ”

    For example?

  205. Departing Aircraft (United 285?):

    “United 885″ it was. No doubt they saw this happen right in front of them.

  206. Flaming June

    7 Jul, 2013 - 2:26 pm

    They are all in it (the royal box)j together today – General Richards, Agent Cameron, Victoria Beckham……….

    :)

  207. Fred: the only bullying and intimidation in this odd affair was the ambushing of Susan Calman, by Miles Jupp, broadcast by the BBC, it was cruel, unfunny and quite deliberately done, I had never in years of News Quiz listening, going back to the days of Barry Took and Richard Ingrams, heard anything so ugly as this, and Ms. Calman not surpisingly handled it badly. If these supposed subsequent threats were genuine then it would be possible to substantiate them indeed it is important that they are substantiated and the source of them, if any, is identified unquestionably. I think the silence that has followed the media’s glee-filled exploitation of the claims of threats, tells us all we need to know about those claims veracity.

    Don’t let the fact the story is old and has no legs stop you, if it floats your boat.

  208. For those speculating about the plane emergency, my past boss has given his opinion:

    From Husam Alshamlan
    I was Aviation Safety Director for the State of Kuwait for years , and was an Accident Investigator for even more years , and I was always very reluctant to give an opinion on an accident before thoroughly looking at the data on the ” Black Boxes ” and taking all factors in any crash into consideration .
    On this occasion , I will make an exception . From the pictures that I have seen and the other limited information about the weather at destination and the runway conditions , I will venture an opinion .
    The crash was caused by a very heavy landing that caused the tail of the airplane to strike the ground first and make it brake off just aft of the pressure bulkhead

  209. The fucking cheek of it! Give MPs a pay rise or risk another expenses scandal, says Ipsa chief

    He said the decision would be “difficult” but the regulator “will not shirk our responsibility to make a determination simply because the task is difficult”.

    ie (we will do what the fuck we like)

    Dunchyou luv the smell of democracy?

    The practically free booze, meals, and perks as well as the expenses and now pay rises, hows about those MPs who can do better go and find a better remuneration they deserve there in the “private sector”, and let we the people apply for the MPs vacancy in the parliament?

    “Having a Parliament accessible to all, one which does not deter the less well-off from seeking election, one which does not require MPs without independent means to seek patronage, is crucial to the continuing health of our democracy.

    WTF are you going on about mate? Less well off? Their salary already is considered a fantastic salary by those of us less well off, if these millionaire wannabe bastards have ideas above their station; they can always seek alternative employment elsewhere.

    I will do the job for half their existing salaries mate, and I am sure others would join me in taking the said jobs too. This is beyond the pale, whilst these free loading bastards are ordering bedroom taxes, and cuts in pensions, and sickness befits, are all too happy to contract out their salaries to an “independent” outfit, and sit back and luxuriate in their new found worth.

    How much was the cost of this “independent” report? Hows about the MPs learn to live within their means and not to fiddle their expenses, and if they cannot live on the “poor” MPs salary, they can always find a part time job (but they have many revenue streams already), or better still; piss off and find a better job somewhere else, and let we the people have a crack at sitting in the parliament and harrumphing away.

  210. Flaming June

    7 Jul, 2013 - 5:15 pm

    Well Milipede E is spending his day of rest at Wimbledon in the royal box. Salmond is also there. Haven’t seen Cleggover or Pippa though.

    Mrs Beckham appears to be wearing some lingerie. Another footballer’s wife Colleen Rooney is also there with her husband.

    Mail is good for photos.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2357781/Wimbledon-final-Murray-sizzles-Centre-Court-goes-sets-Djokovic-temperatures-hit-40C.html

  211. Flaming June

    7 Jul, 2013 - 5:33 pm

    “We’ve waited 77 years for this”, says Ms Barker referring to the last winner of the men’s championship at Wimbledon. I did not know that Fred Perry was Scottish like Murray. :) .

  212. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    7 Jul, 2013 - 7:16 pm

    Well, you’ll be pleased to hear that I’m back after a short trip.

    [Mod/Jon: post just used for sniping, removed. Please engage with just the issues, thanks]

  213. “Well, you’ll be pleased to hear that I’m back after a short trip.” Habbabkuk.

    Blotter, or windowpane?

  214. Everything but the kitchen sink (and Ken Loach). Do not rise, all (as the Queen Mother never intoned).

  215. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    7 Jul, 2013 - 8:28 pm

    @ Suhayl

    No, it’s simply interesting to come back to the threads after a few days away and to notice that it’s as if one had never been gone. Bit like a bad university lecturer really – you can miss his lectures in weeks 3 and 4 but in reality you’ve missed nothing at all.
    But don’t let me spoil your appreciation and enjoyment :)

  216. Chris Jones

    7 Jul, 2013 - 9:30 pm

    @Fred – Maybe its time for you to start making full use of all your faculties. You have heard of psy ops and the like I take it? And I’m sure you are aware of the rather unpleasant habits of one of the worst examples of extreme imperialist eugenic nationalism,the British state, in the last 200 years? Maybe thats the kind of nationalism you prefer over the non imperial reasonable and democratic type?

    Talk about psy ops – heres a quote from the links demonstrating those lost cause mouth pieces for the British regime again:

    “Earlier this year the BBC admitted that a claim made by the presenter, that anti-English attacks had increased in Scotland, was untrue, but insisted it was not deliberate”

    …sigh

  217. Flaming June

    7 Jul, 2013 - 9:47 pm

    I have just seen a brilliant play performed by an amateur group which took the form of readings from news items of the time, local and national, letters, anecdotes, sound recordings and song about the life, and very tragic death by cyanide poisoning, of Alan Turing. Just as with Dr Kelly’s death, allegedly by suicide, no note was left.

    The earlier days of espionage and surveillance were outlined and the development of use of wireless signals.

    After the end of the WWI an establishment called GC&CS or GCCS was set up in London, the Government Code and Cypher School. the forerunner of GCHQ.

    The work of Turing at Bletchley Park (where GC&CS located) on the Enigma Code was described.

    Nothing changes.

    ‘The Code Breaker

    Apollo Theatre Company presents an original piece about Alan Turing who was key to cracking the German enigma code in WW2. He grew up in Guildford and the show comprises material such as local paper cuttings from the Surrey Advertiser at the time, as well as extracts from books about Turing and his work.’

    http://vimeo.com/68290523

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

  218. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    7 Jul, 2013 - 9:53 pm

    “For me somehow, the words “Kissinger” and “principle” don’t seem to belong in the same sentence.

    There must be a good grammatical reason.

    Or maybe it’s the impossible logic of it.

    Just plain tautological.”
    _________

    A tautology?

    Surely not.

    Try “oxymoron”.

    Better still, invest in a good dictionary (I recommend the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary in 2 vols.).

  219. Is there a Flight 587 “blog” ?

  220. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    7 Jul, 2013 - 9:58 pm

    [Mod/Jon: removed excessive commentary about another poster, please stick to topics]

  221. Flaming June

    7 Jul, 2013 - 10:07 pm

    Yes Anon, from the following thread wishing Craig well, I spotted Salmond strategically placed behind Agent Cameron waving the Saltyre.

    Cameron is hoping that any reflected glory from his presence at Murray’s golden field of victory might detract from Theresa May’s who was all over the ‘medja’ today crowing about Abu Qatada’s deportation.

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/07/article-2357781-1AB3808D000005DC-61_964x610.jpg

    We can see right through him.

    May now proposes to amend the Immigration Act, limiting the number of appeals and taking away the right to human life for some she doesn’t think should have it, and to replace the Human Rights Act with some sort of UK Bill of Rights. She is a dangerous woman. She longs to be PM of course.

  222. Edward Snowden, if you do not know about the Sauron programme you need to know.

    http://www.chronicle.su/news/snowden-unveils-nsa-spy-satellite-sauron-program-targeting-us-citizens/

    It is why you should sign the Epetition on my blog.

  223. Posting this here as I don’t want to disrupt the thread of Good Wishes on today’s post.

    Interesting example of blatant censorship in the Independent today, details here:

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/09/why-i-am-convinced-that-anna-ardin-is-a-liar/comment-page-8/#comment-416988

    Does anyone know what the Independent’s take-down policy is for below-the-line stuff posted by readers? Is it before or after receiving formal notification from an aggrieved party? (Apparently, the plaintiff’s counsel for one of the women in the Assange case (also the family lawyer for Sweden’s Prime Minister, Fredrik Reinfeldt) recently liaised directly with the Independent to place a press release. So I’m wondering if any take-down notification came from that direction?)

  224. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    7 Jul, 2013 - 10:48 pm

    Surely all of Britain – or at least those who love and cherish her and wish her well – has good reason to feel pleased with some of today’s news.

    Firstly, a Briton has once again won a major tennis tournament last won by another Briton 77 years ago. (NB – Briton : one of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland).

    And then someone who very probably does not love and cherish Britain and wish her well has finally be deported after due legal process has been scrupulously observed regardless of the time taken to achieve this.

    ___________

    Not to forget the news of a couple of days ago which will be welcomed by people of whatever nationality – that of the conferral of sainthood on the late Holy Father. Rejoice!

  225. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    7 Jul, 2013 - 10:54 pm

    @ Mod/Jon

    Thanks for removing two of my posts and asking me to stay on (the) topic(s).

    What are the topics, though?

    Who sat in the Royal Box at Wimbledon, for example (see posts above)?

  226. @Habba. 9 40pm

    I never thought I’d ever have to say this but Habba, you are quite right.

    As you point out it is in fact an oxymoron. Like “Henry Kissinger-Nobel Peace Laureate” wouldn’t you agree?

    Now I’ll go and stand in the dunce’s corner and read this:

    http://www.zpub.com/un/wanted-hkiss.html

  227. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    7 Jul, 2013 - 11:13 pm

    [Mod/Jon: I deleted your post for focussing excessively on another poster - this time about a play, so hardly important. In this instance, an extended appeal to mod about trivial deletions is unwelcome, please discuss something with someone else.]

  228. BrianFujisan

    8 Jul, 2013 - 12:04 am

    Looks like another Truth Seeps out of the Cesspool of Lies

    A massive explosion last Thursday at a major Syrian weapons depot in Latakia, not far from the main port of Tartus, completely destroyed the facility and munitions stored there.

    Tartus is Syria’s main port. It is largely controlled by the Russian military, and the route by which all weapons transported by sea would enter Syria. As such, any advanced Russian weaponry would enter via Tartous and might be stored in the Latakia depot.

    Though the Free Syrian Army took immediate credit for the attack, it was not the responsible party.

    A confidential Israeli source informs me that Israeli forces attacked the site. The target were components of Russia’s SA-300 anti-aircraft missile system which had been shipped by Russia to Tartus and stored in Latakia.

    Richard Silverstein….At -

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/act-of-war-israel-attacks-syrian-weapons-depot-containing-advanced-russian-arms/5341940

  229. Latakia is 44 miles from Tartus, whether that counts as “not far” I suppose is relative.

    If those nasty Israelis destroyed the facility why aren’t the Syrians screaming about it and showing the evidence to the world instead of blaming it on a “technical problem” which, despite claims to the contrary, has been responsible for detonating Russian arms dumps in the past?

  230. Chris Jones

    8 Jul, 2013 - 1:51 am

    The Honourable Craig Murray said: “What we are seeing in Egypt is counter-revolution pure and simple, military hardliners who are going to be friendly with Israel and the US, and are committing gross human rights abuse.

    Western backed counter-revolution is going to be sweeping back across the Middle East; do not be distracted by the words of the West, watch the deeds. It will of course be in the name of secularism”

    …I can only sadly agree that these particular words are probably true despite the mass hope of 14 million people. But is it just me or has Craig slightly fine tuned the wording of this post? If he has I applaud him because, although as always, I have an enormous respect for him, it irks me when he automatically equates inclusive healthy nationalism/patriotism etc with badness and small mindedness when imperialist nationalism/fascism is all around including within the EU floundering super stateism…

  231. BrianFujisan

    8 Jul, 2013 - 3:57 am

    [Mod/Jon: removed, please keep to civil language]

  232. Flaming June

    8 Jul, 2013 - 6:43 am

    Radio 4 Today announced that Blair will be coming on the programme this morning to speak about Egypt which will be more of the same support for the USUKIsNATO line that the Observer printed.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/06/egypt-middle-east-tony-blair

    Why is he still being given these platforms? He is a broken reed and is completely discredited. His opinions are worthless.

  233. Flaming June

    8 Jul, 2013 - 6:52 am

    Golden (tennis) balls contd.

    A footnote. I see why Mrs Beckham got a seat. She and Murray share the same agent, Simon Fuller. He propelled the Spice Girls to fame and now manages Murray amongst his many other activities. Must be rolling in it.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Fuller

    Murray will soon be rolling in it and is recommended for a knighthood by today’s tabloids.

    ‘Roger Federer has won a record 17 major championships, and the latest estimate of his annual endorsement income is approximately $65 million. Rafael Nadal has won 12 majors, and the latest estimate of his annual endorsements is $21 million. Djokovic has won 6 majors (4 of which being the Australian Open), and the latest estimate of his annual endorsements is $14 million.

    This September 2012 story from London pegged Murray’s endorsements at roughly $9.5 million…which does not account for any new deals signed after his U.S. Open victory.

    As such, and in light of his historic achievement at the 2013 Wimbledon Championships, expect Murray’s annual endorsement earnings to be at least on par with Djokovic by the end of fiscal 2013. And if 2-3 more majors follow in the coming years, eclipsing $20 million annually in endorsements is not impossible.’

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2013/07/07/andy-murray-boosts-future-endorsement-earnings-ending-britains-77-year-drought-at-wimbledon/

    Wow!

  234. At Salon

    “Why did you shoot me? I was reading a book”: The new warrior cop is out of control

    ‘SWAT teams raiding poker games and trying to stop underage drinking? Overwhelming paramilitary force is on the rise’

    http://www.salon.com/2013/07/07/%E2%80%9Cwhy_did_you_shoot_me_i_was_reading_a_book_the_new_warrior_cop_is_out_of_control/

  235. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    8 Jul, 2013 - 8:31 am

    [Mod/Jon, thanks for the moderation report, done]

  236. Flaming June

    8 Jul, 2013 - 8:32 am

    Escalation. 35 killed this morning in an attack by the military when the Muslim Brotherhood stormed a building where they believe Morsi is being held.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1112787/egypt-morsi-supporters-shot-dead-at-barracks

  237. @Suhayl Saadi “You’d like the CIA and the Mafia to be in control of a country.” Ideally countries should be in control of democrats who are not fascists, communists, Islamists, racists or any other groups likely to turn into persecutors and oppressors. Hence the permissibility in theory of the Kissinger principle, though it might often not be a good idea in practice. As for the Mafia, I wish that gangsters may repent of their sins and become useless as criminals.

    “What, you mean death squads..?”

    I disapprove of such methods, and I am glad that I don’t have to authorise assassinations. On the other hand, I don’t mourn for Bin Laden or Awalaki, nor will I mourn if I hear of Zawahiri’s demise.

  238. @Chris “Maybe its time for you to start making full use of all your faculties.”

    I do. When I hear someone is being called a self loathing Jew for opposing Zionism I speak out and when I hear someone being called a self loathing Scot for opposing Nationalism I do the same. It is wrong, no amount of Nationalist propaganda or attempts to demonise the victim can make it right.

  239. At least 53 pro-Morsi protesters killed in Cairo

    The Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood says the death toll from the army’s Monday attack on supporters of ousted President Mohamed Morsi in the capital, Cairo has risen to 53, with five children among the dead.

    Meanwhile, news is emerging of two soldiers “arrested” and held by the Muslim Brotherhood supporters.

    This is hitting up, and there is an escalation by the Muslim Brotherhood calling on all their supporters to rise-up.

  240. I put this (first one) on the previous thread by mistake

    “The pilots of a passenger jet which crashed in the United States tried to abort their landing as stall warnings filled the cockpit moments before impact, according to safety officials.

    “Two people died and 182 were injured when the Asiana Airlines Boeing 777 crashed late on Saturday at the San Francisco International Airport. The plane was carrying 307 people.

    “Asiana said on Monday that the pilot was “in training” and that it was his first flight into the city at the controls of a 777.”

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2013/07/201376191550136917.html

    Also, video has emerged of the moment of impact

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBi8zR44OsU

    and yes, there is another plane virtually alongside, taking off

    And this from Ch 4 News

    “although he did not comment on reports that one of the Chinese teenagers who died may have been run over by an emergency vehicle.

    “According to the city’s fire department, “one of the deceased did have injuries consistent with having been run over by a vehicle”.”

    http://www.channel4.com/news/san-francisco-plane-crash-pilot-training

    Christ

  241. Flaming June

    8 Jul, 2013 - 2:03 pm

    She’s in charge.

    Theresa May to ban two extremist groups
    UK-based Minbar Ansar Deen and Nigeria-based Boko Haram are to be proscribed in the UK under terrorism laws
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jul/08/theresa-may-to-ben-extremist-groups

    ~~

    As Abu Qatada leaves, Theresa May vows to change human rights law
    ‘Wholesale changes’ to human rights legislation promised after lengthy legal battle that cost taxpayer £1.7m
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/07/abu-qatada-human-rights

    ~~

  242. Flaming June

    8 Jul, 2013 - 2:14 pm

    The Jillings Report into child abuse at North Wales children’s homes is finally released but it has been heavily redacted.

    ‘An inquiry by John Jillings was carried out in 1996 but shelved due to fears there would be compensation claims.

    The report was finally published following an FoI request by the BBC.

    The 300-page report was initially written in 1996 after it was commissioned by the former Clwyd County Council, which covered the areas now represented by Flintshire, Denbighshire and Wrexham councils.

    PDF download Jillings Report Part One[17MB]

    PDF download Jillings Report Part Two[14 MB]

    It had followed North Wales Police’s investigation into abuse claims in 1991 and the conviction of seven former care workers.

    But as more claims of widespread abuse in almost 40 homes emerged, the former Clwyd County Council commissioned Mr Jillings in March 1994 to investigate.

    However, it was never published.’

    Jillings report: ‘Extensive’ abuse at children’s homes
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-23199905

    There is this ominous line in the summary of the Jillings Report findings.

    ’12 children had died.’

  243. Flaming June

    8 Jul, 2013 - 3:06 pm

    The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want, etc.

    However. Not if you are Palestinian with a few sheep grazing on the hills of East Jerusalem.

    http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_communities_jerusalem_factsheet_june_2013_english.pdf
    Communities in the Jerusalem periphery at risk of forcible transfer | June 2013
    Small herding communities in the hills to the east of Jerusalem are at risk of forcible transfer due to a “relocation” plan advanced by the Israeli authorities.

    Search and arrest. Home demolitions. Displacement of Palestinians. Olive trees uprooted. Gaza fuel shortages. Delays at checkpoints.

    The lists of daily atrocities are endlessly logged by the Orwellian named Office for the Coordination for Humanitarian Affairs, Occupied Palestinian Territories/

    210 pages going back to 2005.
    http://www.ochaopt.org/generalreports.aspx?id=97&page=1

  244. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    8 Jul, 2013 - 3:12 pm

    “Theresa May to ban two extremist groups
    UK-based Minbar Ansar Deen and Nigeria-based Boko Haram are to be proscribed in the UK under terrorism laws”
    __________

    Presumably the Home Secretary is acting within the law and in acccordance with the powers given to her. Perhaps the poster is only giving us this for information (I had already heard it, thank you)but if not, what is the precise objection to her proposal?

    “As Abu Qatada leaves, Theresa May vows to change human rights law
    ‘Wholesale changes’ to human rights legislation promised after lengthy legal battle that cost taxpayer £1.7m”
    ________

    The point should perhaps be made that this affairs cost the taxpayer so much precisely because of all the appeal possibilities Mr Qatada was able to benefit from, in accordance with the law and due process.

    As to the promised “wholesale changes” to human rights legislation, perhaps commenters should wait to see which changes are proposed before condemning them sight unseen?

  245. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    8 Jul, 2013 - 3:32 pm

    @ Mod/Jon (re my post at 08h31)

    Glad to have been of help and thank you for your prompt action.

    As I fully understand that you cannot be expected to be on the job 24/24 (the offending post was posted at 3 o’clock in the morning) and that certain posts might slip past you I propose, within my limited possibilities, to continue to help you in your task of ‘cleaning up’ and sharpening this blog by drawing your attention to egregious examples of offensive language and outright trivia (since I understand that the latter appear to have no place here either – cf. your post to me at 23h13 on 7 July).

  246. “I disapprove of such methods, and I am glad that I don’t have to authorise assassinations. On the other hand, I don’t mourn for Bin Laden or Awalaki, nor will I mourn if I hear of Zawahiri’s demise.” Abe Rene.

    The discussion was about Kissinger and also about Cuba. The death squads to which I am referring vis a vis Kissinger were those in ‘Latin’ America, run by the CIA, which routinely targeted and murdered innocent civilians, including health care workers, nuns, children, as well as anyone suspected of any kind of trade union or political activity opposed to their fascist agenda. To conflate these people with say, Osama Bin Laden is preposterous nd inhuman. One might refer to multiple countries in South and Central America over a period of many decades, but especially Guatemala, Chile, Brazil and Nicaragua.

    Wrt carpet bombing and Kissinger, the references would be to North Vietnam and Cambodia, and the mmass murder of many thousands of civilians, plus the destabilsations of Cambodia with further Killng Field consequences.

  247. I’m glad, though, that you disapprove of such methods. But if the Bay of Pigs had been successful – something you suggested you would have liked to have seen happen – we would have seen exactly those methods used on the civilian population of Cuba.

  248. Theresa May vows to change human rights law
    ‘Wholesale changes’

    Trouble is she has been in contraventions of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights up until now, from now she can make legal the illegal and get on with contravening the UDHR legally!

    - – - –

    Small herding communities in the hills to the east of Jerusalem are at risk of forcible transfer due to a “relocation” plan advanced by the Israeli authorities.

    Even nomads are not safe from the marauding hoards of the land stealing ziofuckwits.

    - – - -

    The Jillings Report into child abuse at North Wales children’s homes is finally released but it has been heavily redacted.

    Funny how the “insurance” companies still dictate on how these “reports” should be presented! (shades of Jimmy the kiddie fiddler Savile coverup?).

    - – - -

    “According to the city’s fire department, “one of the deceased did have injuries consistent with having been run over by a vehicle”.”

    Seems the US firefighters are being trained by the same outfit that trains their Police officers!

    The chaff surrounding this crash includes a great deal of efforts directed at deflecting any blame from the aircraft! This coming on the heels of other malfunctions of the various aircraft manufactured by Boeing could have some bearing on the rapid fire theories of the causes for the crash that are emerging.

    - – - -

  249. Flaming June

    8 Jul, 2013 - 5:04 pm

    Who are the nitwits in Cornwall who re-elected this councillor, possessor of the milk of human kindness? Not.

    Cornwall disabled row councillor Collin Brewer censured

    A councillor has been censured for his “grossly offensive” comments that disabled children should be “put down” and banned from council premises where services for the disabled are provided.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-23229088

  250. doug scorgie

    8 Jul, 2013 - 5:32 pm

    One for Blair watchers:

    “Tony Blair hired ex Israeli army intelligence officer despite envoy role”

    “Tony Blair has hired a former Israeli army intelligence officer to work in his private office, despite his role as Middle East peace envoy.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/10164523/Tony-Blair-hired-ex-Israeli-army-intelligence-officer-despite-envoy-role.html

    Related Articles on the above link:

    Blair rich project’s £4m Brazil deal
    18 Nov 2012
    Tony Blair strikes gold in Mongolia
    09 Jun 2013
    Tony Blair widens his web via the stock markets
    13 Jan 2013
    Tony Blair to advise next government of Albania
    19 May 2013

  251. Flaming June

    8 Jul, 2013 - 5:44 pm

    Galling Doug. And to think we idiot British taxpayers are paying £hundreds of thousands for his ‘security’.

  252. Flaming June

    8 Jul, 2013 - 6:02 pm

    Even the Mail sees through Cameron.

    The photo opportunity Cameron couldn’t wait for: PM rubs hands with glee as comes out to greet champion Andy Murray at No 10

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2358352/Andy-Murray-smartens-join-PM-Downing-Street-photo-opportunity-Cameron-keen-up.html

  253. A councillor has been censured for his “grossly offensive” comments that disabled children should be “put down” and banned from council premises where services for the disabled are provided.

    This chap needs his legs to be broken and then to be told; he ought to be put down!

    This kind of a wanker really boils my blood, the tosser probably could not hold onto his piss if he were to come across a couple of the lads in an dark allay; asking him for a light. Yet he has the temerity to advocate execution of the disabled and infirm. For the record, disabled children ought to be cherished as much as the able bodied children, for any child is a gift and any gift ought to be welcomed.

    ============

    … role as Middle East peace envoy

    Why do the medjia refer to bLiar as “peace envoy”? Whilst, his office is for him to be in charge of distributing the European funds allocated to Palestinians. Simply put the fox is in charge of the chicken coop. That corrupt bastard steadily will not be able to trust anyone other than his ziofuckwit associates, which he will eventually find this to be akin to jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.

  254. Flaming June

    8 Jul, 2013 - 7:05 pm

    Sketch: A day of worship for the almighty Theresa
    Michael Deacon watches MPs takes turns to congratulate Theresa May on the extradition of Abu Qatada.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10167255/Sketch-A-day-of-worship-for-the-almighty-Theresa.html

  255. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    8 Jul, 2013 - 7:45 pm

    @ Passerby (16h22) :

    “Theresa May vows to change human rights law
    ‘Wholesale changes’

    Trouble is she has been in contraventions of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights up until now, from now she can make legal the illegal and get on with contravening the UDHR legally!”
    ______________

    I really do wish that people would not simply write the first thing that comes into their heads but just think (and if necessary research)for a few minutes before spouting off.

    Firstly, the Universal Declaration is just that – a declaration. It is not “law” and has no legal force, and consequently contains no provisions for the implementation and enforcement of its 29-odd articles. It is – and this is not meant as a criticism – utopian in nature and there is no state on earth which has not been, since its adoption and up to the present, in “violation” of several (and probably in some cases, most) of its articles. Take, for example, its articles on the “right to education” or (my own words) a “decent standard of living”.

    There is therefore no question of the UK govt seeking to make “legal” the “illegal” or contravening the UDHR “legally”.

    Secondly, what I imagine Passerby is thinking of is what is commonly known as the European Convention on Human Rights and/or the UK’s Human Rights Act (2000).

    The former (ECHR)is a completely different animal from the UDHR : it lays down a (more limited, as compared to the UDHR) numbers of rights and sets out mechanisms and procedures (notably the European Court of Human Rights) for adjudication and enforcement of those rights within the Contracting Parties (ie, the States Party). Furthermore, its judgements have the force of law and are binding on the States Party involved in a case. The latter (HRA) is, essentially, the full incorporation of the ECHR into UK law, inter alia, that since 2000 actions under the European Convention (eg, an individual who feels that his rights under, say, Article 7 have been breached) can be brought directly in the UK courts and UCHR law is directly applicable in the UK; applicants need no longer go to Strasbourg to have their suits heard and adjudicated (however, they can still do so once all possible remedies in the UK courts have been exhausted).

    This is what should be referred to by commenters when they talk about breaches in “human rights law”.

    Has the UK been found to have violated THIS human rights law? Certainly, and on several occasions. As have many if not all of the States Party. And there have been no instances, to my knowledge at least, of States Party not bowing to the judgements of the ECtHR.

    So : when the govt talks about its intention to substantially change “human rights law” it is referring to either the ECHR or to the UK’s HRA. Given that getting changes agreed to the former would take years if not decades (if feasible at all) and given that the UK has no intention of “withdrawing” from that Convention (this would be politically unfeasible) and that so-called reservations on the ECHR can only be entered on signature or ratification but not subsequently, I should imagine that it is changes to the UK’s own Human Rights Act are what is being considered. And we shall not know what these envisaged changes might be until they have been proposed.

    Conclusion : please refer to what should be referred to (ie, more precision, please) and let’s have less hysteria and fewer wild accusations while awaiting concrete proposals.

  256. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    8 Jul, 2013 - 7:56 pm

    Posted at 19h05 :

    “Sketch: A day of worship for the almighty Theresa
    Michael Deacon watches MPs takes turns to congratulate Theresa May on the extradition of Abu Qatada.”
    _________

    Well, if I were a vulgarian, I should say “the girl done good”, but since I am anything but, I shall simply add my congratulations to those of the MPs for the achievement (scrupulously following due process) of something which had eluded God knows how many Home Secretaries before her (Home Secretaries with physical balls, by the way).

    AFTERTHOUGHT – is there anyone here who feels strongly that Mr Qatada should NOT have been deported? Happy to discuss.

  257. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    8 Jul, 2013 - 8:00 pm

    “For the record, disabled children ought to be cherished as much as the able bodied children,..”
    _________

    If not more so, in my opinion, for their need is even greater.

  258. Tweet

    “A marriage made in hell: #Monsanto buys #Blackwater – Really toxic mercenaries”

    http://politicalblindspot.com/yes-monsanto-actually-did-buy-the-blackwater-mercenary-group/

  259. The International Bill of Human rights or Universal Declaration of Human Rights, ought to be printed on the back of every bag of sugar, and cereal boxes. For without any such a safeguard, the total bastards and psychopaths in charge will pay lip service to human rights, whilst contravening every moral, and legal imperatives concerning our inalienable rights as a human being.

    The following is a distressing account of such an abuse. It must be noted that the tradition of fasting and rejecting food in the face of injustice, is to be found in more than one culture. Those of Irish descent perhaps would be more familiar with this concept.

    The tyranny of the concentration camp in Gitmo

  260. “AFTERTHOUGHT – is there anyone here who feels strongly that Mr Qatada should NOT have been deported? Happy to discuss.”

    Must be me then again H. It is a case I’ve been following, for although the media portrayed and portray him as a villain, I have heard no substantive evidence from MSM.

    Here are two parallel cases I wrote about in May.

    http://newsjunkiepost.com/2013/05/03/is-hatred-of-islam-the-uk-home-secretarys-religion/

    I also raised a FOI request regarding questions that have been bothering me in the Abu Qatada case, not least of which is the suggestion that he worked for the UK secret services.

    https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/abu_qatadas_crime_or_crimes#incoming-400219

  261. the best analysis yet:

    8 July – Thierry Meyssan: Does Morsi’s fate foreshadow that of the Muslim
    Brotherhood?
    CAPTION: Of 84 million Egyptians, 33 million took to the streets to celebrate the military coup
    So when it became clear that its allies were overwhelmed by the street, Washington ordered them to give way to the prefabricated opposition…
    Ultimately, what characterizes the “Arab Spring” (Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Syria) is not instability, or culture, but the solution envisaged by the imperialist powers: the rise to power of the Muslim Brotherhood.
    This secret, allegedly anti-imperialist organization has always been politically controlled by London. It was represented in Hillary Clinton’s cabinet through Huma Abedin (wife of Anthony Weiner, former pro-Zionist U.S. Representative), whose mother Saleha Abedin leads the global women’s branch
    of the Brotherhood. Qatar has bankrolled operations for more than $15 billion per year (!) in addition to the media coverage of the Brotherhood, who in late 2005 was given charge of the Al-Jazeera channel. Finally, Turkey has provided policy expertise with communication consultants…
    http://www.voltairenet.org/article179282.html

  262. Chris Jones

    9 Jul, 2013 - 3:15 am

    @Fred “When I hear someone is being called a self loathing Jew for opposing Zionism I speak out and when I hear someone being called a self loathing Scot for opposing Nationalism I do the same. It is wrong, no amount of Nationalist propaganda or attempts to demonise the victim can make it right.

    Your point doesn’t make any sense. What your on about is intolerance and lack of respect for freedom of opinion and speech – I’ve no idea why you decide that its the same thing as nationalism or people who want the best for their country. You do realise that all of this world is currently made up of various countries, including the current ‘british state’, which means that the whole world is therefore nationalist? How have you worked out which country is good nationalist versus bad nationalist countries? Have you got a natiometer?

  263. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 7:39 am

    Israeli doctors to advise US on Guantanamo hunger strikers

    Israeli doctors have been invited to the US to share their experiences of handling hunger-striking Palestinian prisoners as Washington comes under fire for its force-feeding of Guantanamo Bay detainees who refuse to eat.

    Officials from the Israeli Medical Association have been invited to the U.S. to present policy makers there with their methods of handling hunger strikers, as the U.S. administration comes under fire for its own practice of force-feeding of Guantanamo Bay detention camp prisoners who refuse to eat.

    /..

    http://www.france24.com/en/20130708-israeli-doctors-advise-us-guantanamo-hunger-strikes

    Note the use of the word ‘handling’.

    They have had a lot of practice.

    ~~~~

    In 2009 over 700 doctors attempted to get an Israeli doctor Yoram Blachar removed as president of the World Medical Association.

    http://blogs.crikey.com.au/croakey/2009/06/29/israeli-president-of-the-world-medical-association-comes-under-fire/

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/21/doctors-israeli-torture-yoram-blachar-resign

  264. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 7:48 am

    So funny.

    The Lloyds building, one of the bastions of the city boys in our capitalist system, is acquired by the Chinese.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23236928#

    A snip @ £260m.

  265. “How have you worked out which country is good nationalist versus bad nationalist countries? Have you got a natiometer?”

    There are no good and bad countries, there are only good and bad people.

    Haven’t you seen me criticising the British government here? Haven’t you seen me criticising Cameron, Haigh, Clegg and Blair? Haven’t you seen me criticising the Nationalist organisations like the BNP, EDL and Zionists everywhere? Haven’t you seen me criticising the American government for persecuting people like Bradley Manning because they are not Nationalists, because they put their humanity before their country.

    You can tell the bad people, they are the ones who make death threats against people who say what they don’t want to hear.

  266. “Fred however is no innocent abroad: emerging from some cave, with matted locks and his once fine garb reduced to rags, clutching tightly a sheaf of well-thumbed last season’s newsprint, some slightly soiled with indeterminate stains of organic origin, and has clipped out this very piece with his bare gnashers, and though now shaped like a pie crust, this article had fired a laggard neuron or two in his noggin -he thinks he scents something, his hobby horse is set a-rockin, knees-trembling, this new scent it mixes with the odours emanating from his full library of learned chip wrappers as they fly in all directions. It’s the holey-grail of a discarded smear campaign -ripe for reanimation, ‘McEureka’ he cries.”

    There is your evidence of Nationalist bullying and intimidation.

    There is my evidence of an utterly humourless Englishman. They do exist, though we sometimes deny it.

    *stirs vigorously*

  267. @Suhayl: “The death squads .. were those in ‘Latin’ America, run by the CIA..”
    Nonsense, this is Communist propaganda. The death squads were responsible for their own misdeeds. The CIA tied to *discourage* the use of torture in Chile.

    “To conflate these people with say, Osama Bin Laden is preposterous and inhuman.”
    By no means. Islamist and Communist regimes are both unworthy of humans and worthy of destruction.

    If the Bay of Pigs invasion had succeeded, Cuba would have been a free democracy. Too bad it still groans under an antiquated and unworkable regime. But Cuba has one good feature: state medical care, and even more impressive, the system of free medical training for doctors from Africa, which must have raised Cuba’s moral ‘capital’ widely. This is one influence which Cuba could beneficially exert on America.

  268. abbabkuk (La Vita È Bella!) 8 Jul, 2013 – 8:00 pm

    Wake up H. I have engaged you in debate.

  269. You can tell the bad people, they are the ones who make death threats against people who say what they don’t want to hear.

    Seriously, though, if you’re getting death threats, tell the police. The SNP is committed to nonviolence, and this used at any rate to be inscribed on the membership cards*. You may be enduring the attentions of a splinter group – they’re mostly laughable – or, as I have suggested before, of nonpartisan Scots who just don’t like you. But death threats are illegal.

    * The SNP rightly feared the Establishment’s conflating it with Irish nationalists such as the IRA

  270. Sorry Habbabkuk. Must have been a silent H. So yes let’s hear some reasoned debate about why Abu Qatada should not be home with his family in London. Do you know something I’ve been trying to find out, like why the media keep smearing him? Or was he a British government agent who left the service? I want to know why he is being forced abroad when there are so many white shits who are passed over by the government and allowed to stay.

  271. Thanks, Doug, for the Blair link.
    TB was already a busted flush as far as the Pals are concerned. His bias in favour of the money wonderful and not at all apartheid democratic beacon was noted some time ago. This will not have surprised them at all.

    There’s an inherent contradiction in what Blair claims to be doing here. On the one hand, he’s gung-ho for the economic development of the West Bank and maybe even Gaza to take place, ably assisted by venture capitalists -

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/83a0b46c-c629-11e2-99d1-00144feab7de.html#axzz2YX8of5xr

    On the other, he is visibly uninterested in redressing any of the injustices to which Palestinians have been subjected for the last 60 years. (Loadsamoney makes everything all right, y’know. It made it all right for me -TB)

    And also on that other hand, the vast investment dangled in front of the Palestinians takes no account of the actuality; the blockade of Gaza, and restrictions on West Bank movement and trade outside Israel. If Palestinian trade and production are strangled (as they are), what return on investment will be possible? Tony dreams that all difficulties will melt away in the presence of money, but they won’t, because, as is patently obvious to anyone else, the Israelis aren’t in the least interested in Palestinian prosperity – quite the reverse.

  272. John – H keeps strange hours. There may be two of it. I don’t feed it these days.

  273. “You can tell the bad people, they are the ones who make death threats against people who say what they don’t want to hear.”

    And the hypocrites who try to condone it.

  274. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 10:08 am

    B.Liar is speaking on Murnaghan/Sky News at the moment. Yet another platform is given to the wear criminal.

  275. Does seem a lot like a counter revolution beginning with a judge who was originally appointed by Mubarak and who lifted the ban on members of his dictatorship and NDP party taking part in elections. Add to that him re-appointing the Chief Prosecutor sacked by Morsi for acquitting all of Mubarak’s security officials of charges or ordering protesters killed.

    Morsi when backed into a corner by the refusal of the opposition to negotiate unless he agreed to all their demands (including his own resignation) first did began to ally with some dangerously extreme Islamists like the group that carried out the Luxor massacre, but making the military and Mubarak’s former appointees the kingmakers by letting them divide and conquer everyone else doesn’t seem wise either.

    My blog post on this with lots of links and more details below
    http://inplaceoffear.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/power-sharing-among-all-parties-is.html

  276. And the hypocrites who try to condone it.

    You talkin’ to me, mate?

    What part of “tell the police” and “it’s illegal”, don’t you quite understand? Or is it “condone” that’s giving you trouble?

    Even your being a monumental pain in the arse doesn’t justify the issuance of death threats, Fred. You are quite entitled to object to them, to the full extent the law permits, nay, encourages. But they are not, repeat not, the policy of the vast majority of Scots nationalists, and, in particular, are not condoned by the SNP.

    So stop smearing, eh?

  277. …the wear criminal.

    Is that a reference to his childhood in Durham, Mary? Or to his abominable dress sense? Either way, good one.

  278. “What part of “tell the police” and “it’s illegal”, don’t you quite understand? Or is it “condone” that’s giving you trouble?”

    Which part of the link Mary posted didn’t you understand?

    Or did you not bother to find out what this discussion was about?

  279. Komodo, at 9.19 a.m. Me neither normally, in fact the Abu Qatada case is something I think everybody should be aware of, and I know on this blog most know that this is just another of Theresa May and David Cameron’s miscarriages of justice, so if that generates a debate it’s job done.

    Two of it? God forbid. However I’ve been missing the witty retorts of Sophie. We could do with others from that stable. So I don’t see it so much as me feeding the T but the T giving me feed lines.

  280. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 11:18 am

    Yes my typos can be quite apt. He was wearing a very smart suit….

    Remember his tie up to Arnault/Louis Vuitton http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1242106/Critics-accuse-Tony-Blair-profiting-office-Louis-Vuitton-billionaire-friend-offers-high-paying-job.htm

    ….and a silk shirt and looked as if he had been scrubbed and buffed up. I seem to remember that they closed the Kensington High Street store so that he could help himself to whatever he chose.

    He was as loquacious as ever this morning. There is an extract of him speaking on Murnaghan. Can’t see a link. It is entitled
    Video: Tony Blair: ‘Democracy is not just a way of voting it’s a way of thinking’ on http://news.sky.com/world

    ~~~

    There are problems at Air Traffic Control HQ at Swanwick. Flights in the South of England are being affected.

  281. Which part of the link Mary posted didn’t you understand?

    Which one? Of very many.

    … what this discussion was about?

    …is ambiguous to say the least. Granted.

  282. “Which one? Of very many.”

    So you jump in with your vicious ad hominem attacks branding people utterly humourless Englishmen and you haven’t got a clue what we’re talking about then.

  283. So you jump in with your vicious ad hominem attacks branding people utterly humourless Englishmen

    Woohoo. I rest my case, m’Lud.

    Sometimes I understand why trolls find this enjoyable…

  284. …and dare I even mention, er, vicious ad-hominem what-you-said about the SNP’s leader being a “beached whale”?

    lol

  285. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 1:03 pm

    If Blair approves of Miliband’s actions, as he did this morning on Sky, then you know Miliband is wrong.
    Miliband Vows To Reform Labour’s Union Ties
    http://news.sky.com/story/1113175/miliband-vows-to-reform-labours-union-ties

    Billy Hayes of the CWU speaks out.
    Ed Miliband’s reform plans rejected as ‘dog whistle’ politics by union leader
    Proposed changes in link between the Labour party and unions condemned by CWU boss as attack on ordinary people
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jul/09/ed-miliband-reform-labour-union-link

    Q. Where is the Labour funding coming from? The next thing we will be hearing of demands for state funding of elections.

    Steve Bell’s take on it yesterday.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cartoon/2013/jul/08/len-mccluskey-davidcameron

  286. “…and dare I even mention, er, vicious ad-hominem what-you-said about the SNP’s leader being a “beached whale”?”

    So you don’t understand what ad hominem means either then.

  287. Kempe 7 Jul, 2013 – 4:15 pm

    I missed your link to the Guardian article. Yes it did report on the shooting by the FBI but probably after a lot of pressure from readers who wondered why the story was available on RT (30 May) and was not published till 3 June. What you have to ask yourself is would the Guardian have published this story without Russia Today. It is why these alternative news outlets are so important.

  288. “If the Bay of Pigs invasion had succeeded, Cuba would have been a free democracy.” Abe Rene.

    And what on earth makes you imagine that? Similar regimes were in power, or took power (via the USA’s help) all over ‘Latin’ America during this period and in just about case, they smashed anything resembling “free democracy” and turned the continent into an ocean of blood.

    I agree with you, though, about the health, etc. stats.

  289. It is OK, he is our son of a bitch

    “Our intent is take these soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines and intelligence officers to go from tactical-level operations and decision-makers to direct leadership roles,” said Bill Waddell, director of the command and control group and the cyberspace operations. “They have gotten promoted for being decisive and getting things done. Now they come here, and they have to get ready for roles where some of them will be general officers, admirals or on the staff of a senior leader.”

    Or even leaders all by themselves and their buddies with guns and tanks.

  290. “Yes it did report on the shooting by the FBI but probably after a lot of pressure from readers who wondered why the story was available on RT (30 May) and was not published till 3 June. What you have to ask yourself is would the Guardian have published this story without Russia Today.”

    Even the Fail covered the story when it first broke on the 22nd.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2329001/Ibragim-Todashev-FBI-agent-fatally-shoots-suspect-Orlando-knew-Boston-Marathon-bombing-suspect-Tamerlan-Tsarnaev.html

    Earliest Gruniad story is dated the 30th May also:-

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/30/father-chechen-man-killed-fbi-inquiry

  291. BrianFujisan

    9 Jul, 2013 - 5:55 pm

    Bliar Being forced down our Throats again

    Great piece fron John Hilly

    What’s more contemptible: Tony Blair’s latest views in the Observer/Guardian on support for the military coup in Egypt, or the Observer/Guardian giving him such uncritical space to air them?

    A small sample of Blair’s shameless chutzpah:
    “So what should the west do? Egypt is the latest reminder that the region is in turmoil and won’t leave us alone, however we may wish it would.” (Emphasis added.)…..

    http://johnhilley.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/observerguardian-once-more-with-feeling.html

    Mod/Jon

    Sorry about rantings at daft o ,clock Monday morning…one too many, Numpty Me

  292. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 5:57 pm

    @ John Goss (and Komodo, at the end):

    “abbabkuk (La Vita È Bella!) 8 Jul, 2013 – 8:00 pm

    Wake up H. I have engaged you in debate.”
    ___________

    Have you?

    I have found two posts from you on the subject. The first refers to two “parallel cases” (by linking) and also links to a FOI request through which you pose a number of questions about Abu Qatada; the second repeats a couple of the questions in your FOI request and adds a reference to “white shits” who have not been deported.

    Now you may not agree with me, but I don’t think that is an appropriate start to a possible debate. I asked the question “does anyone here think that Qatada should NOT have been deported?”. You have identified yourself as one such (I think we can assume this from the spirit if not letter of your posts) and should now go on to give reasons and arguments for why you hold that opinion. I would then carry on by either agreeing, refuting or disputing. My point is that your two posts neither respect the proper structure of a “debate”, nor does their substance constitute the first element I mentioned above (ie, the “why I hold this or that opinion”).

    Whether or not this post is the end of the matter, I would though like to thank you for responding (and in a civil manner). Both are quite rare occurences on this blog, not only when I’m involved but also when on occasion two or more of the Excellences fall out over something (cf the above ongoing spat between Komodo and Fred :) )

    Which brings me to my thought on Komodo’s post, which was :

    “John – H keeps strange hours. There may be two of it. I don’t feed it these days.”

    It’s surely an unworthy thought, but…..when you don’t have a valid answer or explanation in response to something someone else has said, isn’t it a rather convenient way out just to say “I don’t discuss with Trolls”? A bit like a dog cocking his leg at the lamppost : you’ve left your little marker but you haven’t engaged further.

  293. Abu Qatada is more dangerous than any of the more flamboyant mullahs. Just as we do not allow White Supremacists from the USA to alight upon these shores, so too ought we to bar other dangerous supremacist leaders. Personally, I’ll be glad to see the back of him. I do not think anyone should be tortured. If that’s a concern, which it is, then as well as justifiably criticisng the UK Government (which of course is in cahoots with the Islamists in Syria/Libya, etc. and which uses the Qatada case as it’s PR vehicle in the opposite direction) for its rank hypocrisy, maybe we should be looking also at Jordan and why the regime there (and why all regimes in those countries) do what they do to their own people.

  294. Habbabkuk, I thought you had some intelligence. If you read the article you will see that Abu Qatada, a family man, born in Bethlehem, and without any apparent criminal record in this country is a is a middle-eastern Muslim that the Home Secretary and David Cameron have, together with former prime ministers, tried to split up from his family. On the other hand Sean Patrick Breach a “white shit” is a serial white South African wife-beater who has an alleged criminal record in South Africa as well as here. One is a prime target for deportation – the other has not even been considered for deportation and nothing of his crimes (Kempe take note) appear in the mainstream media. I am posting the link again so that you can read it and make your own judgement.

    http://newsjunkiepost.com/2013/05/03/is-hatred-of-islam-the-uk-home-secretarys-religion/

  295. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 6:56 pm

    Sub-contractors working on the gas supply in Birdcage Walk have cut through a water main which, apart from causing a flood, has deprived Downing Street, parts of Whitehall, the House of Lords and Wellington Barracks of their water supply. What a shame. Agent Cameron and the others are said to be not best pleased. That will teach them a lesson about privatising public services.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-23248549

    Tomorrow the £3bn privatisation of the Royal Mail kicks off. There will be a donation of shares (a bribe) to the staff. It will be the end of universal delivery to all parts of the UK for the same price and we will see hundreds of delivery vans running around all working for different companies.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/royal-mail/10167373/Royal-Mail-WILL-be-sold-off-in-biggest-state-privatisation-for-two-decades.html

  296. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 7:02 pm

    Victoria Britain’s opinion of Abu Qatada is different to the general view.

    I know Abu Qatada – he’s no terrorist
    Security services and politicians turned this man into an Islamic counter-terrorism myth. If only they’d talked to him instead

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/07/abu-qatada-no-terrorist

    I haven’t looked at the 1140 comments but can guess at some of the content.

  297. Abu Qatada allegedly is a very clever ideologue and what’s worse, a clever recruiter of youth who, it is reported, speaks one way in public, in English (allegedly to fool people) and another, when allegedly indocrinating gullible youths with his poisonous doctrine. He allegedly has links with training camps abroad. He also is an expert in theology – which the other, more theatrical, mullahs of hate were not. As I said, there must be no compromising of human rights, no matter how heinous the individual concerned. But there are individuals far more deserving of your good conscience, John, than Abu Qatada. It is people like him – his pals, actually – who are commiting much of the killing in Syria. It is a pity the issue has become a political football of the Far Right in this country. It’s bigger than that.

  298. “If only they’d talked to him instead…” Flaming June.

    Yeah, he’ll have told Ms Brittain exactly what she wanted to hear. As I said, he’s very clever. He knows how to milk liberals.

  299. “… his moral standards could have been useful in engaging Muslim youth and healing the wounds in our divided society.” [from the Brittain article]

    No, no, no! This man is a Far Right supremacist.

    “The Guardian Newspaper reported that in 1995 Abu Qatada issued a fatwa justifying the killing of Muslims who renounce their faith, and of their families.” [from Wikipedia]

    That’s just one example. This is the kind of man he is. So yes, let’s be absolute in our stand against evidence-from-torture, etc., but let’s not kid ourselves that this is a good man. In fact, our knowledge that he is not a good man and our steadfastness against torture actually strengthens our position.

  300. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 7:24 pm

    Murdoch won’t have Wendi Deng to save him next time.

    Rupert Murdoch Recalled By Commons Committee
    The media mogul is asked to appear before MPs after a tape recording emerged of a meeting with journalists at his newspapers.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1113515/rupert-murdoch-recalled-by-commons-committee

  301. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 7:41 pm

    @ Suhayl

    Thank you for those interesting posts on Abu Qatada. They are all the more valuable as the Eminences will not be able to shout “fascist” or “troll” or “hasbara agent” at YOU (this will of course deprive them of seven-eights of their ‘argument’)

    I would actually have used a couple of your points for my “debate” with John Goss – once he would have started to debate by setting out his reasons for maintaining that Abu Qatada should NOT have been deported (if you read his latest, you’ll have seen that he hasn’t actually done so, preferring instead to introduce Sean Patrick Breach into the discussion).

  302. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 7:46 pm

    From Flaming June re Abu Qatada:

    “If only they’d talked to him instead”
    _________

    Well, according to some of your fellow-Eminences, they did – because they suggest that he was an MI6 asset.

    No, seriously, this is a desperate argument. Oh, if only we’d have talked to x, y, z (fill in the names of some pretty unpleasant figures here yourselves), they wouldn’t have been so horrible!

  303. And while I’m at it, calling another Fundo Preacher, Qaradawi, “progressive” is the height of naivete (to be kind to Ken Livingstone et al). Qaradawi and his ilk are NOT progressive. He’s Muslim Brotherhood – and we just saw what they were trying to do to Egyptians and we see what their pals are doing right now in Libya and Syria (with the help of MI6, the CIA, the Saudis/UAE and the French). That is what happens when these people get power. They are not, could never be, should never be, friends of the Left. We saw what their theocratic Shia equivalents in Iran did to the Left when they hijacked the Revolution of 1979 – mass murder. Bani Sadr had to flee Iran disguised as a woman, on the back of a donkey.

    It is necessary to be against imperialism and in this regard, it is necessary clearly to see that one of the key tools of imperialism in the ‘Middle East’ is religious fundamentalism.

  304. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 7:58 pm

    @ John Goss :

    “Habbabkuk, I thought you had some intelligence. If you read the article you will see that Abu Qatada, a family man, born in Bethlehem, and without any apparent criminal record in this country is a is a middle-eastern Muslim that the Home Secretary and David Cameron have, together with former prime ministers, tried to split up from his family. On the other hand Sean Patrick Breach a “white shit” is a serial white South African wife-beater who has an alleged criminal record in South Africa as well as here. One is a prime target for deportation – the other has not even been considered for deportation and nothing of his crimes (Kempe take note) appear in the mainstream media.”
    ___________

    I’m assuming that you read my post before posting the above; you’ll recall that I suggested that you start off the debate by saying why you maintain that Abu Qatada should NOT have been deported.

    Does your post (reproduced above) constitute that statement of your reasons?

    If so, I note that your reasons for opposing the deportation of Abu Qatada appear to be :

    - that he is a family man born in Bethlehem
    - that he has no apparent criminal record in the UK
    - that various UK politicians have tried to split him from his family
    - that he is in complete contrast to Sean Patrick Breach, who has however not been deported.

    So before we go any further, please confirm that you have given me the reasons why you think that Abu Qatada should not have been deported and that those reasons are the ones eproduced above.

    Thank you.

  305. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 8:06 pm

    [Mod/Jon: excessive focussing on one particular poster, will continue to remove these]

  306. First of all Habbabkuk, it was you who was “happy to discuss” why Abu Qatada should, or should not, have been deported to the torturous state of Jordan. Theresa May, and other home secretaries from the time of Blair and Bush’s ‘war on Islam’ as I prefer to call it, has imprisoned people, including Abu Qatada, people like Babar Ahmad and Syed Talha Ahsan for collectively more than 14 years without charge or trial. That is not what we used to do in this country. That is why I raised several FOI requests suggesting that the FCO might be illegally bigoted towards people of Muslim faith.

    Suhayl you might be right, and I respect your opinion, but the Guardian timeline is not sourced. There are great writers on the Guardian, even more so since Glenn Greenwald joined. But those of us who have followed it over the years knows that the spooks have an input too. The bit about the Germans finding “recordings of some of his radical sermons in a home used by some of the September 11 attackers” in April 2002 is almost certainly disinformation of the nature of the videotapes of Osama Bin Laden found in caves.

  307. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 8:56 pm

    It’s so good to have one’s comments copied out and repeated. Free double exposure.

  308. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 9:29 pm

    “It’s so good to have one’s comments copied out and repeated. Free double exposure.”
    ______________

    Absolutely, and always happy to be of service to a valuable and valued contributor.

    There! I’ve done it again!

  309. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 9:39 pm

    Man’s inhumanity to man.

    In photos: Palestinian workers’ everyday nightmare at Israeli checkpoints
    Daniel Tepper

    Qalqiliya 9 July 2013

    http://electronicintifada.net/content/photos-palestinian-workers-everyday-nightmare-israeli-checkpoints/12597

  310. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 9:41 pm

    @ John Goss :

    “First of all Habbabkuk, it was you who was “happy to discuss” why Abu Qatada should, or should not, have been deported to the torturous state of Jordan. Theresa May, and other home secretaries from the time of Blair and Bush’s ‘war on Islam’ as I prefer to call it, has imprisoned people, including Abu Qatada, people like Babar Ahmad and Syed Talha Ahsan for collectively more than 14 years without charge or trial. That is not what we used to do in this country. That is why I raised several FOI requests suggesting that the FCO might be illegally bigoted towards people of Muslim faith.”
    ______________

    Let’s be clear : I originally asked whether there was anyone on this blog who thought that Abu Qatada should NOT be deported, and added that I should be happy to discuss.

    Yo indicated that you were such a person but, apart from so indicating, you have not given me your reasons. Once I have them, I shall be able to answer them.

    You did post some stuff but have not yet responded to my request to tell me whether that stuff constitutes your reasons for opposing Abu Qatada’s deportation and whether I have captured what you said accurately.

    You have now posted yet more stuff, bringing in another couple of people in addition to the South African murderer you mentioned previously and recalling for the third time that you sent off a Freedom of Information request. But still no exposition of the reasons for which you are opposed to the deportation of Abu Qatada.

    I’m seriously beginning to doubt your wish to discuss this question. If you are unwilling – or perhaps unable – to set out the reasons for your opinion, please just say so and we can drop the whole thing.

  311. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 9:47 pm

    @ John Goss

    And I have of course not failed to notice that you are doing your best to rubbish Suhayl’s sources, Suhayl having cast some doubt on the angelic and anti-terrorist disposition of the now departed Mr Qatada.

    I think they must have taught you that trick at Party school along with the dialectical materialism, no?

  312. Fred, I’m in mod-mode at the moment, so I won’t join in. But, in the interests of stimulating debate: either side of the independence campaign may have one or two unpleasant individuals willing to make death threats. However, neither side is going to publicly support that sort of thing, and 99% of unionists and 99% of independence supporters will not use this tactic.

    With that in mind, it might be best not to rest your argument on “nationalists are violent” – in the main, this is a peaceful campaign, both ways. Can we focus instead on the political and economic effects (good or bad) of separation?

  313. Thanks, John. Yes, that was just one example, as I said. Abu Qatada has been roundly criticised, his speeches and works negatively critiqued, by Islamic religious scholars (not just those in the UK, not just those of the obvious bodies) across the (sane) board whom he, in turn, has disparaged, and many others, not just by the spooks or elements of the Left or Right or whatever.

    He also allegedly had systemic links with the Algerian GIS, an organisation that massacred civilians in the thousands (even other Islamist who were not sufficiently psychopathic) as, of course, did the Alegrian state during the civil war there of the 1990s. He’s been a key (practising and theoretician) Rightwing religious supremacist for many years.

    As I said earlier, that is not to say that he automatically forfeits all rights or that we descend to the same level by using evidence gained through torture, imprisonment wihtout charge, etc. Everyone, even the biggest murdering bastard, is entitled to due process. I wish that for example, General Pinochet had been exposed to due process as had been demanded by the Spanish judge.

  314. And I wish Anthony Blair would be exposed to due process.

  315. Habbabkuk, this article is by Moazzam Begg. If your recall Moazzam Begg was one of the 779 men ever held in Guantanamo Bay, of which 15 were children. Of that huge total of Muslims (because I know of none practising other religions) only 13 have ever been charged with a crime, and 9 men have died there. Only 1 to my knowledge has been convicted. These figures speak for themselves. They are the joint intelligence of European countries, including the UK who condemn Muslims without them having committed a crime. Anybody who thinks differently needs to stop watching MSM. How good the intelligence is from intercepting people’s communications speaks for itself. But here is Moazzam Begg’s article. You worked out roughly what my arguments were as to why Abu Qatada should not have had to go to Jordan.

    http://www.cageprisoners.com/our-work/opinion-editorial/item/4002-from-bethlehem-to-belmarsh-abu-qatada%E2%80%99s-ordeal-in-britain

  316. Bani Sadr had to flee Iran disguised as a woman, on the back of a donkey.

    He did not run away because he was a lefty. Bani Sadr was “planted” in among the leadership entourage from the word go, by the CIA. His handler was one Guy Rutherford purporting to represent Carver and Associates of Pennsylvania, US. However Guy Rutherford also was known as William Foster, and in fact was Vernon Cassin of the CIA. Cassin had been operating since mid 1950s in the mid east, and he was posted as the CIA Station Chief in Damascus, later being assigned as the Station Chief in Amman, Jordan. Cassin also had a close working relationship with Thomas Ahern the Station Chief in US Embassy in Tehran.

    However, as ever any data concerning Iran does not necessarily need to be grounded in facts, so long as it conforms to the jaundiced view so prevalent with regards to all matters concerning Iran; portraying Iran in the most negative light, it should suffice. Fact that Bani Sadar was the fifth columnist sabotaging the Iranians war efforts, directed at countering the Saddams attacks, and defending Iran during the imposed war on Iran by Saddam. Hence his ignominious departure from Iran attired in tribal women’s outfit.

  317. Well, who knows? Bani Sadr, of course denies that he was a CIA asset, saying only that they attempted to recruit him but that he rejected their overtures. Whatever, many thousands of leftists and others were murdered by the theocratic regimes in the early 1980s. My point here being that people on the Left should never, ever ally themselves with religious extermists because when they do, they usually end up dead.

    But if you agree with Abu Qatada’s ‘preaching’ and alleged actions, then what can one say?

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NCwOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA180&lpg=PA180&dq=Bani+Sadr,+CIA&source=bl&ots=56YKXwCXv9&sig=r0THqqDRg5nqh1z_0l5SPqMShgg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-oHcUafcKYi0hAf9mYCYAw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAjgK

  318. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 10:54 pm

    @ John Goss:

    On second thoughts, I shall take your last two posts as indicating the ‘reasons’ for which you are opposed to the deportation of Mr Qatada and go through them point by point. When reading, please keep in mlind what Suhayl has posted.
    Perhaps that will encourage you to engage in the discussion you have indicated you want.

    Firstly, let me point out two facts :

    1/. There is nothing in international law granting aliens the unconditional right of entry into the territory of a state or, if the alien is already in the territory of that state, the unconditional right to remain.

    2/. UK Home Secretaries have absolute discretion in matters of right of entry and deportation, subject only to the provisions of relevant international law (notably the ECHR and EU legislation).

    Now to your posts, taking the latest one first.

    a) “..deported to the torturous (sic) state of Jordan.”

    The basis of Mr Qatada’s suit at the ECtHR was that evidence at the retrial he would face in Jordan might have been obtained by torture and that his trial would therefore be contrary to the ECHR’s provisions on the right to a fair trial. This objection has now been met by the recently-negotiated Agreement between the UK and Jordan that any such evidence would not be used at his trial. It therefore falls.
    ________

    b) “..has imprisoned people, including Abu Qatada, people like Babar Ahmad and Syed Talha Ahsan for collectively more than 14 years without charge or trial.”

    Irrelevant for the purpose of this discussion on two counts : (1) we are discussing the case of Mr Qatada and not Messrs Ahmad and Ahsan; (2) we are discussing the deportation and not what preceded it.
    ________

    c) “That is not what we used to do in this country.”

    This is not accurate : deportation powers have been used by successive Home Secretaries as far back as I can remember. Even if they had not been, this cannot be a reason as we are discussing a specific case of deportation now. If your reference is to 14 years of imprisonment, please see above under point b)

    d) “That is why I raised several FOI requests suggesting that the FCO might be illegally bigoted towards people of Muslim faith”

    The fact that you have submitted a FOI request is not a reason why Mr Qatada should not have been deported. And, by the way, if it were, you should have addressed it to the Home Department and not the FCO
    _________

    Now on to your first post.

    e) “Abu Qatada, a family man, born in Bethlehem”

    Irrelevant for the purpose of arguing that he should not be deported (by the way, he is a Jordanian citizen – and is a fugitive from Jordanian justice, wanted for retrial in Jordan.

    f) “…Home Secretary and David Cameron have, together with former prime ministers, tried to split up from his family.”

    Untrue (and therefore invalid as a reason). Mr Qatada’s suit at the ECHR, interestingly enough, was based on the claimed violation of his right to a fair trial and not to the right to have a family (or ‘enjoy a family life”). The UK govt wants hum out because he is deemed to be a threat to the security of the UK and that his poresence is not conducive to the public good. In adddition to which, he is wanted for retrial in a friendly state.
    _______

    g) “On the other hand Sean Patrick Breach a “white shit” is a serial white South African wife-beater who has an alleged criminal record in South Africa as well as here. One is a prime target for deportation – the other has not even been considered for deportation and nothing of his crimes (Kempe take note) appear in the mainstream media.”

    All irrelevant to the question of whether Mr Qatada should have been deported or not. I think you might agree that each case should be dealt with on its own merits and the absence of action in one case should not bear on another?

    ************

    Now, having re-read the above, I am forced to one of two conclusions:

    1/. Either you have set out your reasons for opposing the deportation of Mr Qatada in those two posts of yours, in which case I think that I’ve shown that those ‘reasons’ are either irrelevant or erroneous

    2/ Or your two posts have just been you sounding off and you have not so far seen fit to put the reasons for your opinion into the arena of discussion. If this is the case, I now again invite you to do so.

  319. “However, as ever any data concerning Iran does not necessarily need to be grounded in facts, so long as it conforms to the jaundiced view so prevalent with regards to all matters concerning Iran; portraying Iran in the most negative light, it should suffice.” Fedup.

    Not by me. No evidence of that whatsoever.

  320. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 11:00 pm

    @ Suhayl

    I expected better from you. He HAS been subject to due process, for Christ’s sake – why do you think it took years to get rid of him?

  321. Habbabkuk, I was not suggesting that Abu Qatada hadn’t been subjected to due process. I was reinforcing the importance of due process in all cases, and also of not obtaining ‘evidence’ via torture, the latter of which I think had been an issue in this case.

    Talha Ahsan, on the other hand, for example, in my view, has not had the benefit of proper due process. There may be the impression of due process in the Ahsan case, but that is not enough.

  322. “My point here being that people on the Left should never, ever ally themselves with religious extermists because when they do, they usually end up dead.” Me.

    Also of course because Right-wing religious supremacism is completely antithetical to everything the Left is supposed to satnd for. In majority-Muslim countries, for example, people on the Left are totally opposed to the religious extremists. No left-wing leader would ever dream of celebrating Al Qaradawi as “progressive” like Ken Livingstone did. And the SWP at times also at times behaves in an apologetic manner. We must get away from this ‘Third Worldism’.

  323. “I think that I’ve shown that those ‘reasons’ are either irrelevant or erroneous”

    Absolutely not. This mention of ‘irrelevant’ when all the rendered British Muslims in Guantanamo were innocent of any crime is nonsense. Did you read Moazzam Begg’s article.

    http://www.cageprisoners.com/our-work/opinion-editorial/item/4002-from-bethlehem-to-belmarsh-abu-qatada%E2%80%99s-ordeal-in-britain

    By the way, what do you understand by torturous? It is associated with the word torture. Look at the synonyms for meaning “a” and argue again.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torturous

    I give you facts. You give me irrelevancies.

  324. Habbabkuk, tomorrow I will give you an early-morning call by which time you might have had time to reflect on your comments. Read them through again and ask yourself why others contributing to the blog do not want to engage with you. Life is good, but time is precious.

  325. I entirely agree, John, that terrible injustices have been committed, and continue to be perpetuated by the USA and its allies, esp. the UK.

    Talha Ahsan has spent many years in gaol without charge or trial while he fought against extradition and right now, is in Florence ‘Supermax’, USA in solitary confinment with no charges laid yet and his lawyers unable to see the ‘evidence’ against him. I mean, this is not due process! And many more. ‘Rendition’, black sites, this whole panoply of tossing out Habeas Corpus, it disgusts me and is a betrayal of everything countless millions have fought and died for over the ages.

  326. Bani Sadr, of course denies that he was a CIA asset

    Is it not naive to expect a Company man to own up, and fess up to his misdeeds?

    many thousands of leftists and others were murdered by the theocratic regimes in the early 1980s

    The leftists inferred to were in fact the MKO (a communist group with leadership aspirations) that was in cahoots with anyone who opposed the leadership structures post the revolution. MKO also helped Saddam to attack Iran, as well as helping Saddam to suppress the Kurds in Iraq, and now are no longer on the list of terrorist organisations of the US (good terrorists) and are helping the US now.

    Furthermore, it should be noted that MKO arranged for the bombing of the Prime minister’s office by one of its members who was in fact in the post of Secretary of Supreme National Security Council. During this bombing many scores of the top echelon of the leadership were assassinated. That is in addition to the constant machinations of the CIA to attack the residence of Ayatollah with mortars.

    In the book referred to Dilip Hiro fails to mention that the information about Bani Sadr and CIA were gleaned from decoding the material found in the US embassy in Tehran. Bani Sadr can deny all he wants, but the decoded data points to his treason. Hence to find the treasonous scum bag being paraded as a hero who fought the big bad Muslims is only reinforcing the caricaturists view that seemingly these days are passed as “reasoned discourse”.

    However, then to make the leap from one traitor and to latch onto another ne’er do well as Ab Qatada who has committed no crimes, as reflected in the absence of any trial, and conviction of the said ex “Most Wanted Man” in UK . That is despite the arbitrary arrest, and detention of Abu Qatada in lines with interment of the Northern Irish who were suspected of IRA membership. This can only be reflective of political persecution of those the government finds undesirable. However this is not the subject of any debate.

    Ab Qatada may preach the same hate that many Rabbis preach, and the likes of Pamela Geller et al are so vociferously engaged in inciting hatred against . To single out only this “hate preacher” who has been out of circulation for the last twelve years, spending his time either in full detention or partial detention and house arrest and finally rendering him to Jordan with assurances that he will not be tortured smack of hypocrisy.

    Then to find any kind of objection to internment practices are misconstrued as being in agreement with the “hate” that he preached is indeed a new low.

  327. No, I was not talking about the MKO, FedUp.

    Do you agree with Abu Qatada’s views and alleged actions, Fed Up? Best to be open about it, if you do.

  328. You see demonstrated here as in most places today, it is either Right-wing imperialism or Right-wing religious supremacism, or apologetics for one or other of these positions, and nothing else is permissible.

  329. BrianFujisan

    9 Jul, 2013 - 11:40 pm

    A heart tugging wee story…Imagine we had to go through this every time we want to go to the seaside… or Ocean

    Alicia Keys Versus Palestinian Youth to the Sea

    “They headed out on Thursday, July 4th around 6:45am. I was waiting to receive them in Haifa. I got a call around7:20am stating that they were stuck at an Israeli checkpoint (permits in hand) and the soldiers were “checking the permits”. At 9:15am I call the driver and he tells me that the soldiers were refusing to let them pass and told them to go and try another checkpoint. At 9:50am they were turned away from a second checkpoint. At this point I am devastated. Not only do they have permission from Israel to come into the ’48 territories, but it’s 90 degrees outside and they had been up since 6:00am and on a coach since 6:30am. At 10:15am I hear that they have been turned away from yet another checkpoint. I called the center here in Haifa to see if they could help. By the time they got in touch with the offices that issue the permits, the children had been turned away at a fourth checkpoint. You can imagine the disappointment, many of them had lost hope. We kept pushing and the permit office finally gave us a fifth checkpoint to send them to, which they guaranteed they would pass them through with no problems. Its was 11:30am and the kids were made to get off the coach, were physically searched and had to walk 20 minutes to meet the coach on the other side of the checkpoint. As they boarded the coach again I could hear their joy through the phone as I spoke to the driver.

    “They took hundreds of pictures of each other and were telling me that it was going to be their “profile picture on Facebook”. They asked me again “Are we going to the beach now?” and I just smiled, boarded them on the coach and headed down towards the sea. Now, the only problem we had was that Israel did not permit us to allow them to swim. They state “Non Israeli Citizens” are not allowed to swim at the beaches…of course, not meaning tourists but meaning Palestinians. The organization we were working with was worried and felt that because there were more kids than we expected that we shouldn’t let them swim for safety reasons. We took them to an area where its really for walking, somewhat of a promenade where there are huge rocks between the walkway and the sea. As soon as they stepped off that bus many of them ran and jumped straight over the rocks into the sea. I must admit, I really didn’t mind. Of course I didn’t want them to hurt themselves but I can swim and it’s not deep there, so I just let them do it. Who knows when they will be allowed out to visit the sea again?! I snapped a picture of 15 year old Khalil who had jumped in with his sneakers and jeans. He was collecting water and sand. His smile….the waves crashing on him and his laughter….made me really think about all the things we take for granted

    http://www.existenceisresistance.org/archives/2818

  330. @Jon

    Independence might turn out all right, could very easily turn pear shaped.

    Nothing is known. Even if people vote for independence they will not wake up next morning`to an independent Scotland. That’s when the horse trading starts and it would probably take years. Salmond might be telling people that the assets will be shared geographically and the liabilities per capita but there is little likelihood that will be what actually happens. He won’t be in any position to dictate terms.

    It’s one big gamble, why would anyone using common sense want to take the risk?

  331. No, I was not talking about the MKO, FedUp.

    These were the lefties that were rounded up post the revolution, along with Todeh party (another communist group). Fact is left have always been prone to manipulation of the right, as the history of their successive failures across the globe bear witness.

    You see demonstrated here as in most places today, it is either Right-wing imperialism or Right-wing religious supremacism, or apologetics for one or other of these positions, and nothing else is permissible.

    The history of Bani Sadr, and portraying him as the victim of the religious zealots, and their right wing imperatives; only reinforces the caricature image of Iran, and upon getting pulled up on it. Then there follows the feet stamping.

  332. @John Goss.11 28pm

    Re Habba,

    “…ask yourself why others contributing to the blog do not want to engage with you. Life is good, but time is precious.”

    I’ve been sucked in so many times myself and I’ve been watching your attempt today with some sympathy. It’s like trying to swim in treacle.

    I swing between wanting to confront it and trying to ignore it. I’m clearly not alone. Sometimes it draws out plenty of facets worth looking at, but it’s hard work and as you say “time is precious.”

    Sophie the sock-puppet was about the nearest I got to an appropriate response. An angry kid can deal with it in a a way that just doesn’t sit right with an adult. Pity about the copy and paste cock-up.

    I like Habba’s complaint that Komodo was treating him as a dog treats a lamp-post. A good idea I think. Quick and effective.

    Here’s Baba Maal – Mariama (Thank You)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjMqLSCOBIo

    Goodnight.

  333. I’ve joined this conversation re deportation of Abu Qatada belatedly but I can say it is a convoluted mess (the conversation). Many issues mangled into a single question – should Qatada be deported?

    If someone were to separate and enumerate the salient issues, you might all be able to discuss them in a more orderly fashion. To this end, let me offer to start a list.

    1. AQ entered, applied for and was granted asylum in the UK. Should the govt be free to refuse asylum seekers on the basis of character checks despite credible risks of persecution? 

    2. Should the govt be free to reverse an earlier grant of asylum based on subsequent security and criminality risk assessments? 

    3. Where should the govt stand on granting asylum to applicants who would be otherwise ineligible for entry due to actual criminality or credible risks of criminality? 

    4. How credible should claims of possible persecution or torture be to prevent a deportation? 

    5. How is the govt to enforce guarantees of fair treatment of deportees in destination countries?

    6. AQ’s entry into the UK was technically lawful, how does this relate to the issue of refusal of entry to controversial figures such as ‘White Supremacists’ from the US? Many controversial figures are denied entry but not in relation to applications for asylum. The UK is required by law to give fair consideration to applications for asylum applications, not visitor visas.

    7. Should AQ be free to conduct himself in *any* manner that is strictly lawful while residing as a refugee? 

    8. Should credible but unproven allegations of criminality or seriously improper conduct NOT factor into his eligibility for indefinite asylum? 

    9. How should the UK regard the use of their country as a safe haven for political activists? Should there be any limits?

  334. Well, there were hundreds of thousands of people in the Tudeh Party. Many were executed by the mullahs. And many other Leftists and liberals (not just the Shah’s Right-wing monarchist people) were executed too.

    Fedup, I agree with you about the demonisation of Iran. But I’m not sure why exactly you are seeking to argue that Far Right religious supremacism is not antithetical to Leftist political views/activity. I think that the history of the last 3+ decades demonstrates that it is antithetical.

    Now, to repeat my very simple question: Do you agree with Abu Qatada’s views and alleged actions?

  335. Good morning Habbabkuk. Join the discussion if you’re there. It is moving along quite nicely.

    Kibo Noh, is that an admission that you are Sophie. If so some of those comments of yours were classic and so entertaining. Thanks.

    Suhayl, Talha’s case is particularly disturbing. I have read his poetry, and prose. As writers ourselves we should stand side by side with imprisoned writers, especially those whose liberty has been taken away without just cause. It is why I set up the Facebook page which I urge all writers and other artists to join.

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/371661099578187/?fref=ts

  336. Correction: Well, wrt Tudeh Party, maybe thousands, not hundreds of thousands…

  337. John, I do (stand side by side) with unjustly imprisoned writers and have written, and spoken, on Talha’s case and appeared side-by-side with his brother, Hamja, who has campaigned tirelessly.

  338. Flaming June

    10 Jul, 2013 - 7:43 am

    More cruelty and inhumanity. No evidence of the words of Jesus.

    ‘And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
    And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.’

    The Palestinians who live below the new fortresses on the hills have experienced this disgusting treatment by Israeli settlers for years and years.

    ‘Villagers in Wadi Fukin near Bethlehem were attacked by Israeli settlers from a nearby settlement, when they intentionally poured thousands of tons of sewage into the only natural water spring and the land.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FZ4COu5rRBI#at=109

  339. Flaming June

    10 Jul, 2013 - 8:00 am

    Omar Mahmoud Othman (Abu Qatada al-Filistini) was born in Bethlehem in 1960. What were his childhood experiences? It is difficult to discover from the internet. Nearly all entries about him are hostile. As a young child he would have experienced chaos and upheaval and seen death and injury as Israel’s Six Day War in 1967 was played around him and his people. Then Israel took the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria.

    I can remember the media coverage here of General Dayan as the heroic victor.

    Some discoveries are to be made when listening to this.

    ‘As Abu Qatada leaves Britain, we talk to one of his childhood friends – plus the Jordanian former justice minister on what happens next.’ http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b036kvb6/Double_Take_07_07_2013/

    4mins 50 secs in for 12 mins

  340. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    10 Jul, 2013 - 8:13 am

    @ John Goss

    I’ll be travelling over the next few days. This should give you time to present your arguments as to why Mr Qatada should not have been deported. Please keep them to the specific case of Mr Qatada and do not bring other cases into the discussion.

    Over and out for the moment.

  341. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    10 Jul, 2013 - 8:22 am

    @ Jemand (in haste, I’m afraid) :

    “9. How should the UK regard the use of their country as a safe haven for political activists? Should there be any limits?”
    _________

    The European Convention on Human Rights specifically allows States Party to impose restrictions on the political activities of aliens in their territory.

    Keep up the good work.

    You’ll have noticed that the discussion with Goss is having difficulty in getting off the ground because he will simply not put forward reasons for which Mr Qatada should not have been deported, preferring instead to talk about anti-Muslim agendas and dragging other individuals into the so-called discussion.

    This underlines something I noticed quite early on about most (but not all) of the regulars’ contributions to this blog, viz : they do not – or cannot – discuss. They will either evade, ignore or, when cornered, become abusive.

    Just pointing this out, although most of the 99% will have already noticed for themselves :)

  342. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    10 Jul, 2013 - 8:33 am

    @ Suhayl

    “Talha Ahsan, on the other hand, for example, in my view, has not had the benefit of proper due process.”
    ___________

    I do not know this case and you may well be right. But this is irrelevant to the question of whether Mr Qatada should or should not have been deported, is it not?

    One cannot say that Mr Qatada should not have been deported because someone else should not have been or was denied due process. It is simply meaningless…and evasive.

  343. Flaming June, I notice that BBC report is a lot more balanced than many of the reports portraying Abu Qatada as a hateful “Muslim cleric”. Cameron and May, and their policy of generating hatred against Muslims, are the ones who ought to go.

  344. Suhayl at 7.41 a.m. I have met Hamja too, and like you say he is a tireless campaigner. I feel so sorry for the Ahsan family. I also feel bitter towards my government for creating an atmosphere of hate that never existed at government level when I was younger. There were a few individual exceptions but they never made it to party leadership. Today the discrimination comes from the top and is poisoning the minds of the great mass of disinterested people who are content to wallow in apathy and “soap operas”.

  345. The Spiegel interview with Edward Snowden, now on his way to……………..
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/interview-with-whistleblower-edward-snowden-on-global-spying-a-910006.html

    This article argues that Germany could take him in, but Germany does not want to raise the wrath of the US such move would cause, a lack of will to stand up against the snooping bullies.

    It would also reveal the extend the BND has cooperated with the NSA.
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/venezuela-says-it-would-give-snowden-asylum-a-910200.html

  346. Sounds familiar!

    Military appointed Egyptian PM tells people: prepare for cuts.

    Posted on July 10, 2013

    According to The New York Times, the appointment of Hazem el-Beblawi as Prime Minister sends ‘a signal that the military-led transitional government intends to move forward with economic reforms and restructuring including reductions in the country’s vast public subsidies’.

    el-Beblawi himself is quoted as saying that ‘We must create a clear understanding for the public that the level of subsidies in Egypt is unsustainable, and the situation is critical’, and that ‘The canceling of subsidies requires sacrifices from the public and therefore necessitates their acceptance’.

    /..

    http://interventionswatch.wordpress.com/2013/07/10/military-appointed-egyptian-pm-tells-people-prepare-for-cuts/

  347. The descent into total anarchy speeds up.

    10 July 2013 Last updated at 11:58
    Muslim Brotherhood leader Mohammed Badie arrest ordered
    Breaking news

    Egypt’s prosecutor’s office has ordered the arrest of the leader of the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood movement, Mohammed Badie, state media report.

    Mr Badie is accused of inciting the violence in Cairo on Friday in which at least 51 people were killed.

    Several leading Brotherhood figures are already in detention and warrants have been issued for hundreds more.

    It comes as the new interim president attempts to form a government after the overthrow of President Mohammed Morsi.

    /..

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23256937

  348. From Jonathan Cook, ex Guardian (he got out), who now lives with his Palestinian wife in Nazareth – within the belly of the beast as we say. He knows what he is talking about of course. Israel wants the whole lot.

    Treatment of Palestinians is Apartheid by Any Other Name
    by Jonathan Cook / July 10th, 2013

    Were it not for the razor wire, giant concrete blocks, steel gates, watchtower and standard-issue surly teenage soldier, it would be impossible to tell at what point the barren uplands of Israel’s eastern Negev give way to the South Hebron Hills of the West Bank.

    The military checkpoint of Shani vaguely marks the formal demarcation between Israel and occupied Palestinian territory, but in practical terms the distinction is meaningless. On either side of the Green Line, Israel is in charge.

    In recent weeks it has been intensifying a campaign to evict Palestinian farming communities summarily from their ancestral lands to replace them with Jewish newcomers.

    Israeli human rights lawyers, tired of the international community’s formulaic criticisms, say it is time to be more forthright. They call these “ethnic cleansing” zones – intended to drive off Palestinians irrespective of the provisions of international law and whether or not the Palestinians in question hold Israeli citizenship.

    /..

    http://dissidentvoice.org/2013/07/treatment-of-palestinians-is-apartheid-by-any-other-name/

  349. doug scorgie

    10 Jul, 2013 - 1:23 pm

    Flaming June
    9 Jul, 2013 – 1:03 pm

    “If Blair approves of Miliband’s actions, as he did this morning on Sky, then you know Miliband is wrong.”

    Yes, quit true.

    Perhaps we should call him Ed Miliblair.

  350. The Talha Ahsan case was raised on this thread by others, Habbabkuk, not by me (though I have raised it extensively elsewhere). So I felt I had to respond.

    Also, Talha’s case has been linked to Abu Qatada’s by the ‘trial by media’; Talha often is mentioned as part of group of “others” in the same breath as Abu Qatada and it is this that is misleading and which needs cleared-up. Also, the sympathetic coverage given to the white hackers (who actually admitted they had done what they were accused of doing) was entirely different from the negative or omitted publicity given to Talha’s case. The families of Talha Ahsan and Gary McKinnon, for example, were actually mutually supportive, but Talha never gets mentioned in the same media breath as Gary McKinnon. This is likely to be the product of both deliberate and subconscious distortion by large sections of the media. Organisations like ‘Liberty’ were very quick and keen publicly to be seen to supporting the McKinnon family but much less eager – until a very late stage – to be seen doing the same with the Ahsan family.

    So one cannot view these things in a vacuum and one might argue that to do so itself is “meaningless… and evasive”.

  351. Now, to repeat my very simple question: Do you agree with Abu Qatada’s views and alleged actions?

    This line of discourse is so familiar! he nice man on the telly: “do you believe that Tony bLiar did not knowingly mislead the parliament”? This rhetorical line of questioning seeks no answers and only is designed to reinforce the assertions and assumptions of the questionnaire.

    The fact we have not any first hand transcripts of Abu Qatada preachings,other than well managed clips aired so often in the mejdia, and so far as his actions goes, what has he done? Is only a matter for those whom knew Abu Qatada first hand and personally. Therefore, how can anyone agree with Abu Qatada’s actions, and views is not subject of the question, and instead the more direct; “do you agree with Abu Qatada?”

    But I’m not sure why exactly you are seeking to argue that Far Right religious supremacism is not antithetical to Leftist political views/activity.

    A- it is not far right.

    B- it is not supremacist.

    The socialist view is pretty well and alive in Iran. However because their brand of socialism is not the same brand as in the West somehow does not mean the Iranian politics are based on far right supremacist dogma. This fact is patently obvious through the constant demonetisation of Iran by the so called “capitalist” systems, and their covert war on Iran for the last four decades.

  352. Suhayl at 6.49 pm. I think the person who Talha Ahsan has been most linked to is Abu Hamza, another Muslim cleric, the man with the hook. Abu Qatada made an appeal from prison for the release of British hostage and peace activist Norman Kember.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jun/18/uksecurity.terrorism

    He has also repeatedly called for the release of prisoners and and closure of Guantanamo Bay. I am trying to get information from the Home Office as to what his alleged crimes are.

    Doug Scorgie at 1.23 pm. I think Miliblair is a very good name. Long before he attacked the union that paid for his passage to parliament (would you call it biting the hand that feeds you?) he had revealed his true colours to me. As a friend of Israel he forced Paul Flynn to apologise over questions Flynn raised regarding meetings between Werritty, Gould, et al (including Bro David) but the thing that showed me his true colours was after the death of Abdelbaset al Megrahi when Cameron said there would be no public inquiry over Lockerbie. Miliband agreed. They all sing from the same song-book.

  353. “[Mod/Jon: excessive focussing on one particular poster, will continue to remove these]”

    On the scales of balance should one not also place the excessive volume and randomness of one particular poster. Being bombarded left, right and centre, its only a normal human sensibility to be irritated to say the least. Hardly the spirit of the suggestion of choosing a topic and inviting discussion which might lead to some enlightenment.

  354. John,, you’re correct, it was Abu Hamza. I guess my point was that one cannot simply view these cases exclusively through a legal prism. They are political cases on every level.

    Fed Up, that’s true about Iran. There have been such elements since 1979.

  355. Sadly, though, FedUp, it’s not been true of every other regime/configuration where Islamism has featured.

  356. Like most of these florid Islamist UK-based mullahs, was Abu Qatada a UK security service asset? This would be no surprise, given the history.

    http://www.nafeezahmed.com/2012/11/abu-qatada-asset-we-cant-get-rid-of.html

  357. Sadly, though, FedUp, it’s not been true of every other regime/configuration where Islamism has featured.

    True! The saddest part is everyday many innocent people are subject to the most terrible abuses of their inalienable/god given human rights. The roots of this corruption is to be found in the leadership arrangements that are normally based on the political imperatives of the the sponsors of the charge hands who are to be put in charge of these benighted masses.

    Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi, Jordan, Yemen, ….. the nationals of these countries have been systematically denuded from their rights, and their dignity to keep the oil flowing, keep the Western arms factories rolling out death machinery, and the banksters in the money.

    The Islam-ism label so much bandied around is designed to destroy one of the very few avenues available to these masses to rid themselves form the tyranny of their ruling elite. The simple fact is, in almost all of these nations they have no longer any kind of organic opposition within their civil constructs. The oppostion has been systematically destroyed.

    As we debate, the Egyptian Generals are hunting down the Muslim Brotherhood members and leaders, in line with other regimes in the area. Further, the extensive internal surveillance and oppression that is so extensively rooted in the governance of these countries. This makes it improbable for the trapped masses to organise in any fashion. The only mechanics of mass gatherings or mass actions are to be found in mosques and religious institutions. Hence the onslaught on all things “Islam-ist”. This is to hedge the longevity of the oil flow, in return for weapons and constructs of oppression, and most important of of all “interest payments/rent payments”.

  358. @John Goss. 7 38am

    “… is that an admission that you are Sophie.”

    Yes. She turned up by accident but then took on a life of her own until I carelessly copied and pasted Kibo’s previous posting and outed her.

    I’m glad she entertained you.

  359. Kibo Noh, me too, glad she entertained me. Are you a playwright? I think you have a gift.

  360. Suhayl, at 11.13. It would not surprise me. I’ve asked the question in my FOI request whether Abu Qatada was ever an asset but can pretty well guess the answer.

  361. Have to Agree With John..Sophie was Brilliant…A child Prodigy for sure, Thank you Kibo Noh.

  362. @John Goss. 12 07am

    Thanks. Not everyone shared your opinions about her posts.

    “Are you a playwright?”

    No. Not much of a writer at all. But having experienced Sophia’s constant nagging at me to give her a voice I now have some understanding of how it must be for those with the gift.

    She brought back to me such a vivid sense of the frequent bafflement and rage I felt around that age, at the antics of the grown-ups who lorded so pompously over my world.

    The character that possessed me can maybe be explained by my life-long enjoyment of Tom Sharpe and many a happy evening spent reading Terry Pratchet’s wonderful books aloud to my kids.

  363. @Brian. 12 36am

    Thanks.

    Maybe I’ll find a way to resurrect her without breaking blog etiquette.

  364. Kibo Noh. You should bring her back. She keeps her wayward (and currently travelling) father in check.

    Sorry Pratchett and Sharpe are too modern for us oldies.

  365. Flaming June

    11 Jul, 2013 - 9:10 am

    Don’t mention the word ‘coup’ contd

    ‘US-Egypt fighter jet deal ‘on track’
    The US is going ahead with plans to deliver four F-16 fighter jets to Egypt despite the political unrest in the country,senior American officials say.

    It comes as Washington is continuing to evaluate last week’s overthrow of President Mohammed Morsi by the army.

    US massive military aid to Cairo would have to be cut by law if the removal of the Islamist leader is determined by Washington to have been a coup.’

    /..
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23265632

    [Mod: removed an addendum here that commented on another poster - please stick to politics]

  366. Sorry Pratchett and Sharpe are too modern for us oldies.

    Speaking as a living fossil, I object. No-one is ever too old for Pratchett, and if anything Sharpe is unsuitable for the young. Start with “Small Gods” by the one and “Riotous Assembly” by the other. I defy you not to continue.

  367. I can never forgive Kibo Noh for breaking this old dragon’s sentimental heart. When I learned that Sophie, to whom when she was old enough, I would gladly have plighted my reptilian troth*, was naught but a figment of the imagination, a cluster of pixels fraudulently expressed in cyberspace, a marionette suggested by the outlines of a Footeze ™ Gentleman’s Stocking (treated with Cheese-sorb ™), I wept uncontrollably for hours and could only console myself by eating 1 pig, half a stray dog and several of my neighbour’s children.

    For shame.

    *not in the same place as mammalian troth, and nicer to look at.

  368. Had to visit an American website to discover what the NuLabour Blairite FoIs have been up to in recent days. Note the names of those present at the gathering.

    The British Labour / Israel Dinner Date
    by JAMES ELLIOTT
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/10/the-british-labour-israel-dinner-date/

    The only cheering thing to read is that Labour Friends of Palestine has a membership of 80.

    http://www.lfi.org.uk/lfi-supporters-in-parliament/

    The JC reports some warmongering by Alexander
    .
    ‘Mr Alexander said the threat posed by Iran must be taken seriously. The country’s funding of Hizbollah, support for Syria’s President Assad, and supply of weapons to the Taliban, meant “a nuclear armed Iran is not simply a threat to Israel, it is a threat to all nations”.

    He added: “Israel has a right, indeed an obligation, to defend itself, and as past conflicts remind us, that demands a strong Israeli Defence Force.”’

    http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/109222/shadow-foreign-secretary-douglas-alexander-warns-labour-over-israel

    Note Balls is off to Israel.

  369. [Mod: comment entirely about another poster, removed]

  370. OK, you old dragon, I’ll take your advice over “Small Gods” by Pratchett and “Riotous Assembly” by Sharpe, when I get a few free moments.

  371. Fedup, at 11:38pm on 10.7.13: Brilliant post, thanks.

    John, good on you.

    Kibo Noh, you need a new name? How about… let me see… ‘Shantelle’? [the second syllable enunciated, not in a French accent, but loudly in female falsetto Glaswegian]

  372. Hi Suhayl, belated thanks for your earlier appreciation of my post extract from K. Wonder if you actually read that piece or watched the video. I do recommend it/them. He so shows the wrong turn that humanity has taken and in a holistic way points out another way.

    More insights and less analysis is humanity’s need in these very conflicted times. Keep yours coming.

  373. Flaming June

    11 Jul, 2013 - 3:21 pm

    [Mod: removed, off-topic]

  374. Flaming June

    11 Jul, 2013 - 3:28 pm

    Just watching the close of the debate about the need for a vote in parliament before arming the Syrian opposition groups.

    Winding up, the shadow minister of foreign affairs Ian Lucas is a member of Labour Friends of Israel and the minister Alistair Burt was a member of the Conservative Friends of Israel. Perhaps its the done thing for ministers to come out of it for the duration.

    A vote on the motion has been called for.

  375. Flaming June

    11 Jul, 2013 - 3:45 pm

    A different view of Mandela and the ANC from the one usually received. Pilger always writes from the basis of his own knowledge and experience.

    From Apartheid to Neoliberalism in South Africa
    Mandela’s Tarnished Legacy http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/11/mandelas-tarnished-legacy/ John Pilger.

    ~~~

    PS The vote on the motion “This House believes no lethal support should be provided to anti-government forces in Syria without the explicit prior consent of parliament” was 147 for and 1 against, so that’s Cameron and Hague told and will hopefully prevent them taking any action during the 7 week long Summer recess.

  376. Members of the master race only agree with democracy for lesser races when lesser races vote for things people from the master race agree with.
    :)
    People in Muslim countries want to be governed by Islam.
    Get over it!

    You might believe your way of life is superior to anyone elses, but everyone else disagrees. Just as you believe your race is superior to anyone elses but you don’t seem to like to admit that anymore.

    You to your way, we to ours.

    You know you whites like to tell us lesser races about the wonders of your way of life. How secularism protects everyones right to follow their religion.
    It might protect your right to swear at the Prophet’s but it doesn’t protect our rights to follow them.
    Egypt was full of bans on Hijab and restrictions on men growing beards and praying in Mosques when it followed your enlightened secularism.
    So please take your secularism and shove it up your enlightened arse.
    :)
    We will govern ourselves by Islam to protect our rights to follow our religion.
    And we will also protect the rights of Non-Muslims to follow theirs because Islam gives them that right.

  377. ‘Ow’s the fish, Arsalan? Good to hear from you again, man. Even if I find your post (4:44pm) touchingly naive. Haven;t you noticed that the Great Powers of our Sublime North Atlantic Alliance have been supporting Islamic paramilitaries right across the Middle East? So, my firned, be uplifted: The Great Satan is with you!

  378. Whether they are with us or against us, the Islamic parties are what people voted for.
    Right wing white supremacists say, “who the people voted for should be ignored and the army supported because the great Satan is against them”.

    The left white supremacists say “We support the army against who the people voted for because the great Satan only pretends to be against Islam, America is really the main supporters of that”.

    Whoever the great Satan supports is not relevant to the blatant hypocrisy of people that claim to believe in democracy but change their minds as soon as brown people vote for people they disagree with.

    Our reason why we believe in Islam is nothing to do with a belief that “”America is against islam”, just as it isn’t due to a belief “America is for Islam”.
    We believe in Islam, because Islam is what we believe in.
    And when the people are allowed free and fair elections, they vote for Islamic parties.
    And when they did so in Algeria, the people they voted for were declared terrorists for the crime of winning the election.
    We believe in Islam, all of it. It is up to America whether they like the fact we do or hate the fact we do. It makes no difference to us, we will always believe in Islam.
    And true Muslims want to be governed by Islam, all of it. Not just the bits that are acceptable to whites.

  379. Hallelujah!

    Well, democracy is about more than just a ballot every four years as an means to absolute power. And billions of petrodollars and paramilitary forces that crush all other possibilities (except military rule) do not constitute ‘the will of the people’. And when the people recognise that they’ve been duped by neoliberal Islamist agents, and rise up to topple the agents, the army steps in and stops the people taking power by placing yet more neoliberal agents into positions of power.

    And Arsalan, when you claim to talk for “brown people”, and ‘Muslim people’ perhaps you would do well to remember that you too are white and that you cannot claim to talk for all, or even the majority of, Muslim people.

  380. Democracy is hypocrisy. It isn’t my slogan, i am not the one that claims to believe in it. It is they that do. And it is they that reject it when it results in something that they disagree with.
    Democray is just a rubber stamp they use to justify putting in power who they would have put in to power anyway.

    Do you even think about what you write?
    Haven’t you seen the billions in petro dollars the oil amirs have given to the millitry dictators after the coup? the Fighter jets America just handed over to them?
    The fact that every western government recognised the coup?

    But all that is irrilivant. you hold the same mindset as the colonialists on how the natives can not be trusted to choose their own way. If they choose anyway but your own they have been duped havent they?

    Just to clarify, I am not a supporter of the brotherhood or morsi. They were idiots if they thought they had a chance of taking power through the ballot box. didn’t algeria teach them anything?
    I don’t believe in Democract, the west doesn’t believe in democracy, the army doesn’t believe in democracry and Suhayl Saadi, you don’t believe in democracy.
    We all believe in out own way of government. And if the people agree with us, we agree with them. Unlike you I admit that I don’t believe in democracy. While you and the west redefine it everytime when the people want something that isn’t what you want.

    The only people who believe in democracy are the people who would agree with its outcome if it was something other than what they themselves would have chosen.
    That isn’t me, and it clearly isn’t you.

  381. You know I was refering to the imperialist mindset by “brown and white”, it is beneath you to pretend that you didnt.

  382. Arsalan, if I read your 2:10pm post correctly, you seem to be saying much the same as Islam4UK, a group of pro-Sharia fundamentalists who wish to remove democracy in the UK and replace it with theocratic rule. I met some of them, rather by accident, as they were doing a roadshow around the UK and were speaking to members of the public – I spoke to one chap for an hour or so.

    His basic error – and yours if you don’t mind my saying – is believing that the atrocities caused by the West represent the will of Western people. One or two people here have recently made the point that the UK is more democratic than other places (including places that are theocratically ruled) but it would be fair to add that it is not democratic enough. The invasion of Iraq was specifically undemocratic, since many millions of ordinary people marched against it and it went ahead anyway.

    People in Muslim countries want to be governed by Islam.

    This, thankfully, is a sweeping generalisation, and thus is false. Yes, some people in Muslim countries support Sharia law as a replacement for a democracy, but not everyone does. I should think people of other religions and people of none in (predominantly) Muslim countries do not wish to see Sharia introduced at all.

    Incidentally, if you are taking the view that Suhayl above is speaking in support of imperialism, then I think you have substantially misunderstood him.

  383. well Kibo Noh, thanks for the delightful Sophia, so well versed with shedlife.

    which brings me to this Sunday afternoon diversion….

    Mind, I’m well aware that some of the best ideas, ever, have come out of sheds and garages, spaces were you gaze outside, listen to the birds and bees, whilst letting the innovative mind sore to ever more intricate heights, were blueprints become Eureka moments and were life is easy holding a cup of tea.

    make mine an Assam, watch in wonder, a motorbike with no frame in the 1990′s, awesome.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGFkfhrTrIk

  384. Jon
    I don’t know them. I don’t speak for them, they don’t speak for me.

    It isn’t Muslims that want to replace democracy with Islamic law.
    There is no such thing as the democracy you are on about.
    It is just a useless slogan.

    It wasn’t us, so called Muslim fundamentalists who go about removing democratically elected governments.
    People voted for what you called fundamentalist Islamists.
    And it is blatant hypocrisy for people like yourself to claim you believe in democracy, but not if the people want a system you disagree with.

    My question to you is, if the majority of people here in the UK want to be ruled by Islam. If an Islamic part won the election, would you stop believing in democracy?

  385. Arsalan, having the vote is not a sufficient condition to ensure democracy on its own. After all Hitler was democratically elected and look what he did with it. It seems to me that for a democracy to function properly it has to be propped up by three basic pillars (and the institutions that support them) – the right to vote, freedom of speech/press, and the rule of law.

    Challenge them as I have inadvertently done and you will soon find that these pillars are more fiction than reality. Here in Canada, as in the UK, it has to be said that the democracy is a bit of a sham and it seems to me that with the growing power of the secret (and unaccountable)security state, the situation is getting worse day by day.

    And there is a forth pillar too – the right of minorities not to be dominated by the majority.

  386. ‘ello Arsalan,

    I don’t know them. I don’t speak for them, they don’t speak for me.

    Of course, I didn’t claim that. I said that you both appear to be saying the same things, with my intended inference being that you are inadvertently supporting religious fundamentalism.

    There is no such thing as the democracy you are on about.

    Do you mean there are no current examples of it, or that it is impossible? To take the first point, there has been discussion here in the past about Swiss I & R, which already exists, and whilst it is not perfect, I think it would be the right step forward for any state that genuinely wishes to be ruled by the demos. If however you believe it is impossible to achieve, I disagree – we need to be optimistic.

    It wasn’t us, so called Muslim fundamentalists who go about removing democratically elected governments.

    And it wasn’t us, so-called democracy supporters, who go about removing democratically elected governments.

    My question to you is, if the majority of people here in the UK want to be ruled by Islam. If an Islamic [party] won the election, would you stop believing in democracy?

    Ah, I think I understand your earlier comments now – you are disenfranchised with systems that are labelled “democratic” because, in the West, the “wrong” election result (such as Hamas in Palestine) will sometimes not be recognised by world powers. I agree with you on this point: this is an example of abuse of imperial power, but since it’s an undemocratic abuse, it’s not the fault of the theory of democracy. It just means that democracy isn’t respected by elites as much as it should be (but then that has always been the case). I’ll touch on this later, though.

    To answer your question directly, I’ll assume by “Islamic party” you mean one that would implement Sharia courts and remove the houses of Parliament, the judiciary and the principles of the legal system. If such a party won an election fairly in the UK, I would not recognise the result, since it is undemocratic to use democracy to destroy democracy. Put another way, if the people who voted for this party changed their mind after a few years of theocratic rule, they would not be able to vote them out since voting will have been abolished.

    For what it’s worth, I think I would struggle to come to terms with any faith party doing well in the British polls. We have something of a proud record of secularism in both national and local elections, and I hope it stays that way. Religion (and thus also religious politics) is, in my view, a symbol of the suffering of the masses, who turn to increasingly irrational solutions to ameliorate their woes. Even though faith fails to cure the ills of poverty, war, basic want and hunger, the feeling that we have a benign creator is comforting but unprovable.

    That all said, it’ll surprise you to hear that I respect people’s religious choices, since people must be free to decide for themselves. I think on the whole religion (and religious politics) is bad for people.

    Earlier I indicated that Hamas should be recognised as the government of Palestine. However, I also don’t think governments should be religious in character. Thus, I suppose I have two competing values (respect for democracy and support for secular governance) so I have to sort them in order of importance.

    So I understand where you are coming from, is there an example of an Islamic party in the world (whether in power or not) who you would vote for?

  387. “And there is a forth pillar too – the right of minorities not to be dominated by the majority.”

    This is the excuse they use to nulify democracy when lesser races are the majority and the master race is the minority.

    They have no problems at all with the majority dominating the minority when they themselves are the majority, do they?
    When France bans the Hijab and the Niqab, it is democracy and the minority needs to submit or get out?
    Isn’t it?
    And Canada itself has it’s own bans on Islamic practice, so before you come to us to preach respecting minorities to us. Isn’t it about time you started implimenting it where you are?
    Well, not just us, the way you treat your aboriginal minority is much worse.

    And that is exactly why I use “White and brown” here.
    It is all to do with racial superiority of the white race. When a non-Muslim country votes in someone with ideas whites don’t like they use the same old excuses.

    Remember what this thread is about?
    It is about people in Egypt voting for a party that some white people wish they had not voted for. And then those same white people who always talk about how white nations are superior to brown because white nations have democracy, suporting the army in removing that elected government.

    This is not just about Egypt.
    Islamic parties have won elections in many other nations.
    And everytime they do, the very people that scream democracy and use it as an excuse to kill and invade make excuses against democracy.
    Elections are just a rubber stamp when your guy wins.
    When the other guy wins, then winning an election is an act of terrorism. For which people are arrested, tortured and killed.
    :)
    So, you the enlightened white master race can take your freedom, your democracy, your capitalism, socialism, communism, freedom and secularism and shove it up your chock on it.
    You to your way and we to ours.

    We have our own ways of governing ourselves. you might think your ways are better just as you think your race is better. But we don’t. Get over it!

  388. Jon I think I need to clarify my position.

    I think the confusion might be my fault because I have said two seperate things and not indicate they are seperate.

    My first point was to do with this thread.
    The elections in egypt.
    the Brotherhood won.
    the Army removed them.
    They were arrested for the crime of winning an election.
    The west recognised the army rule.
    My point was to show the hypocrisy of those people who keep calling for democracy but call for something else when anyone other then their own people win.

    Jon your last post shows the key issues here. Democracy is just one tiny part of what people believe in when it comes to ruling.
    If the people you elect implement what you want implemented you are happy with democracy. If they implement anything else you are not happy.
    You wouldn’t like to be government by Shariya courts.
    But the people of Egypt would.
    That is why they voted for who they did.
    The same thing happened in Algeria. And if every Muslim country ever had free and fair elections, you would find that is what would happen all over the Muslim world.
    That is why White countries support the dictators and kings in the Muslim world.
    They make no secret of knowing the system that would replace them if there were free and fair elections.
    My first point was to call YOUR democracy, hypocrisy.
    The fact is you believe in your system, and if an election results in your system all well and good. But if it results in anything else. Well then the election is not valid is it?
    You don’t really believe in democracy do you? in the rule of the people. you and everyone else believe in the rule of yourown people.
    People that think like you.

    My second point was:
    So do I. I don’t believe in democracy. I believe in my own way.
    I am just not a hypocrit about it. I don’t claim it is all about the majority of people agrying with me.

    So the best thing for all concerned is white people should rule white countries by their white ways.
    And allow us lesser people to rule ourselves by our ways.

    We have our own history and traditions that we can use to develope our own systems.
    We have no reason to want to become duplicates of the white race.

    What confuses me is why you all go on about Muslims trying to force their shariya courts on you?
    It isn’t use invading your countries forcing our ways on you. It is the other way.
    There are no Muslims trying to take over the UK or canada or any other white nation. None of us are lobying the priminister to make him implemant islamic law.
    It is the other way.
    It is you forcing your ways on us.

  389. Arsalan, thanks.

    I haven’t made my mind up about the events in Egypt. I would in general agree that the army seizing power is a worrying development, and yes, the US recognition is bound to have come from the usual self-serving “American interests” mindset. However, I am moderately of the opinion that the overthrow has widespread popular support, i.e. the people changed their mind. If you have views on that I should be most interested to hear them. Did the Brotherhood fail to live up to expectations, or has popular support for the coup been mischaracterised?

    You wouldn’t like to be government by Shariya courts.
    But the people of Egypt would.
    That is why they voted for who they did.

    I have to say I don’t know the dynamics in Egypt well enough to be able to comment on that. My guess is that they appear to be, in the main, quite moderate and the Egyptian people voted for them on that basis. From my limited understanding, the Brotherhood would likely have continued within a democratic framework, and that there was no popular mandate for its dissolution. I should be interested if you know otherwise, of course.

    Some of what you say confuses imperialism’s disdain for democracy with my concerns about undemocratic systems, and you are entirely wrong to suggest I don’t believe in democracy. I suggested that if a religious party was voted into power in the UK, and they intended to dismantle the democratic framework, then the result should not be accepted; I say this because I believe in democracy, not because I don’t.

    I accept that rejecting a democratic decision to destroy democracy is a contradiction, it certainly is. In such cases, one again has to prioritise competing values. But equally, your position contains the opposite contradiction: you claim to hate democracy and appear to be in favour of absolutist theocratic rule, but you wish to use democracy as the vehicle to get you there. Is that not odd, in your mind?

    So the best thing for all concerned is white people should rule white countries by their white ways.

    This is worrying stuff. There is no such thing as a “white country” and making this the fault of “whites” is as racist as the imperial attitudes towards Muslims that you rightly decry. In any case, US/UK support for dreadful regimes around the world is essentially a capitalist decision – any religious/racial conflict that stems from it is regarded by the elites as just a side-effect.

    I notice you use the word “you” a lot, suggesting that you believe I am personally forcing my ways onto you. I am doing no such thing, but importantly, it reveals your world-view to be quite them-and-us, which is wrong. Some Muslim folk are quite attached to democracy, as it happens, just as some white folks would abolish it tomorrow if they could.

    None of us are lobying the Prime Minister to make him implement Islamic law.

    Not true, as my earlier post showed. There are groups in the UK who are (or at least were) calling for theocratic rule and the dissolution of the democratic and legal mechanisms.

    Final point; I’d like to appeal to you to try to understand my views as being well-motivated. If you believe that I support American imperialism, or that I am secretly racist, it just isn’t true. I want peace, security and justice for everyone, and I condemn imperialism in all its forms. Whilst you genuinely think religious rule will solve the problems of predominantly Muslim countries, I regard that as an example of false consciousness i.e. you actively support policies that are opposed to your own interests. Perhaps you have been lured into that view by seeing Islamic countries as a barrier to total American domination, and whilst that may be true to some extent, you put too much faith in fallible humans to think it can’t go wrong.

    If you support the creation of a religious oligarchy, and such a thing were to come into existence where you live, you may later regret it. Unfortunately your support cannot be withdrawn, and short of a popular revolution you will not be allowed to change your mind.

  390. Arsalan makes FedUp/Passerby look like Norman St John Stevas.

  391. Arsalan – I was not referring to Egypt in my earlier comment since I have not been given enough information by the media in Canada to be able to form a knowledgeable opinion; though in general I don’t like to see the military intervene either.

    Nor do I support Canada’s treatment of its dissenters, and the lack of adherence of the Harper Government to rule of law and even basic civil liberties. Their record on democracy is truly shocking. Mr. Harper is marching us down the road to a sham democracy. Our security agencies are totally out of control and becoming a threat to democracy. I have written on the subject.

    http://lobster-magazine.co.uk/free/lobster65/lob65-canadian-spy-agency.pdf

    I am not in any way opposed to fundamental religion provided it doesn’t interfere in the lives of those who have a different viewpoint. I can certainly think of the West’s past sins in this regard – from Torquemada and the Inquisition to the fundamentalist political movements we have had in Europe that brook no opposition and seem to have a need to persecute in an almost quasi-religious manner – Hitler and Auschwitz or Stalin and the Gulag, etc.. But, what all this tells me is that there is a need to protect minority rights if one wants to live in an inclusive, tolerant and prosperous state as I do – what I called in my earlier comment: the 4th pillar of democracy.

  392. How ironic that Arsalan Goldberg writes this:

    “So the best thing for all concerned is white people should rule white countries by their white ways.
    And allow us lesser people to rule ourselves by our ways.”

    Arsalan, you are white and you are from, of and are living in (what you would call) a ‘white’ country.

    What is this, Stockholm Syndrome? Lebensraum? “Our ways”. Yeah, sure. “Our ways”, defined by Maududi and Qutb and propelled by the House of Ibn Saud.

  393. Arsalan, having the vote is not a sufficient condition to ensure democracy on its own. After all Hitler was democratically elected and look what he did with it. It seems to me that for a democracy to function properly it has to be propped up by three basic pillars (and the institutions that support them) – the right to vote, freedom of speech/press, and the rule of law.

    Oh fickle matters of majority voting is no longer the issue in a democracy, seeing as the narrative faxed through for the sound bites; “there is too much emphasis on the ballot box, and numbers”!

    Oh Mr. Darcy! fuck me with kippers democracy is what the “massers” in the West say it should be, and the meaning can be changed, as and when the West finds the wrong bastards are winning the ballot box battles set.

    Have not got the time, but will be back into this thread now that it is getting interesting. However there should be a working definition of democracy so that we all know what the fuck we are on about instead of the current arbitrary woolly concept that is more fluid than fucking quick silver.

  394. Jon
    ” Egyptian people voted for them on that basis. From my limited understanding, ”

    This sounds just like talk of the “White man’s Burden”.
    You know about how us lesser races can’t understand what is best for us so need the devine guidence of the white race?

    The army ruled before the election. And now they rule once again.
    This wasn’t due to the brothehood failing the next set of elections, which is what would have happened of people did actually change their minds.
    What happened was the army just took back power.

    Brown people do not think differently from you due to their lesser understanding, they think differently from you because they think differently.
    The people in Egypt are Muslim people. They don’t eat what you eat, they dont dress the way you dress, they don’t believe in what you believe in.
    So get over yourself!
    They choose their own way, and you can choose your own.
    And no, Islam for UK and anyone else the racist press are telling you to fear are doing no actions to take over this country.
    They haven’t given F16s to an Islamist coup here, that is what the Americans have just done in egypt.
    So I repeat No Muslims have understaken any actions to take over this country at all.
    No one in the army here has been bribed to do a coup, Not by Islam 4 UK, Not by any other group for extreme or less extreme.
    No Muslim army has invaded this country and no one is planing to invade.
    But it does happen the other way. It is us who are the ones being invaded by you.

  395. rr

    I believe in the rights of religious minorities living in Muslim countries because and only because Islam gives them that right.

    It wasn’t our Islam that did the Spanist Inquisition. Hitler wasn’t implementing Shariya.
    Not to mention the religious rights given to the native Americans when their lands were stolen, or the blacks carried their from Africa.

    We give religious minorities their rights because Islam gives them these rights.
    And when Muslims treat religious minorities badly.
    The way to solve it isn’t the great example shown to us by the white man.
    The way to solve it is to see the example given to us by our own Quran and our own Prophet pbh.
    No Islamic group however extreme intends to force others to convert to Islam at gun point. That has never happened and that never will.
    If you want to see forced conversions, look to your own history.
    Speak to native Americans and African Americans about it. they will give you all the information you need to know about religious rights of minorities.

    SS
    My loyalties lie with the one that created me.
    Not to any race.
    you can call it stokeholm syndrome if you want.
    I call it tawheed.
    You should try it.

  396. Arsalan,

    You seem to have skipped over all the points I made to you. Whilst I agree with Craig that a coup by the army may be a slide back into authoritarian military rule, I put it to you that the coup received genuine, mass support. Do you believe the people supported the coup or not? Would you bring back the Brotherhood if that was against the stated wishes of the people?

    I should note as an aside that this stuff is complex, and my not condemning the coup outright – given the apparent popular support – is, of course, not the same as agreeing with the American position. Hopefully that is obvious.

    Much of the rest of your post I’ve already responded to. I still think you need to avoid the sweeping generalisations of what you think people believe based on their skin colour. “Brown people” do not all agree on introducing theocratic rule across the Muslim world. As I’ve said before, “brown people” have a wide range of hugely differing views on this topic.

    As for my need to “get over [myself]” and my having apparently “read the racist press”, we can’t have a sensible discussion if you are going to mistake me for a racist right-winger. My criticism comes from the left, not the right, and whilst I do think sensitivity is appropriate in mass-media discussion given the current global context of Islamophobia, we’re here having a small discussion in a very quiet corner of the internet.

  397. I did read that point. I just didn’t see it as worth dealing with.
    Why?
    No one denies the losers in elections have support.
    Few elections have 100% victories.
    No real elections have that.

    The wide spread support you refer to are the support of the people who lost.
    The support of the people who supported the dictator who ruled before.
    Even though he wasn’t elected, he did have support.
    And most importantly, the support of the army itself.

    There was an election. The people that want to be ruled by Islam won. The people that want to follow your ways lost.
    And that is all it takes for you to loss all your democratic principles.
    :)
    If it was the other way. And the Islamist had lost the election, and did a coup to take power, i’m sure you would condemn it out right woundn’t you?

    Yes in Muslim countries people differ on many things.
    We have the majority that believe in Islam and try to live by it.
    We also have what African Americans would call uncle tom Niggers.
    People that love the whiteman, want to be the white man.
    See the white man as superior to themselves and see the majority of the people in their nation as beneath themselves for being less like the whiteman then themselves.
    These were the dictators, their families and supporters.
    The elections have shown the are the minority, but the elections also showed they do exists.
    And less than a year after the elections, these people took back power with the same means they kept power for so many years. With the Army.
    And when they did, racist white people support them, over the majority they suppress.
    Why?
    Unlike their less enlightened country men, these men recognise the superiority of the white way of life.
    You can say they are like the civilised tribes. The tribes of native Americans that were allowed to live, because they adopted white dress, white names and the white way of life, while all other native americans were exterminated.

    Democracy is useless isn’t it?
    You have your secularism.
    I have my Islam.
    If democracy were to show people liked your secularism more than they like my Islam you would say you believe in it.
    It doesn’t so you reject democracy.

  398. Oh yah, I said it before. But you probably missed it.
    I am not a supporter of the brotherhood.
    LOL
    They were idiots for taking part in an election.
    Did those morons really think the army that had ruled for so many years would give up power just because they lost an election.
    lol
    morons!
    lol
    The army always knew what the majority of people in egypt want.
    That is why they ruled egypt so harshly.
    The election was bait to get the idiots to show themselves.
    To come out of hiding to caste their votes.
    And as soon as they came out of hiding and took part in the elections.
    Wossssshhhhhh they all got arrested.
    Idiots!

    The next elections will be fake, just as they were for the many years Hosni Mubarak had been getting more than 100% of the vote. with the results revealed even before the votes were cast let alone counted.
    LOL

  399. The term ‘fundamentalist’ is used a lot these days, most recently in relation to so-called muslim fundamentalism. If we agree that the term means a strict adherence to the accepted principles of a given belief system or idea, then I’d like to question how the term has come to be used as a pejorative or criticism.

    Do we call engineers and scientists ‘fundamentalists’ when they adhere strictly to the practice of observing mathematical accuracy in their calculations? Should they be liberal with rounding numbers such as Pi? Should bridges and aeroplanes be built using less exacting standards?

    Are doctors ‘fundamentalists’ when they adhere strictly to safe hygenic practices and compliance with established medical procedures?

    Should lawyers and judges be more flexible with language and principles, and less ‘fundamentalist’ with a strict adherence to the letter of the law?

    So on what basis are religious ‘fundamentalists’ wrong, bad or backward when they adhere strictly to their religious texts? How are scriptures to be interpreted when they make perfect grammatical sense as they were written? How can they simultaneously believe that their ascension to heaven is dependent on their compliance with God’s will but then regard the textual origins of his will to be so ambiguous that it must be interpreted in manifold competing versions?

    Of course, it is too easy to point out that so many stories, principles and edicts within various religions are stupid, ignorant, primitive, offensive, violent and destructive. But that describes perfectly what the whole religion is. What is Islam, Christianity and Buddhism, if not the various stories, principles and edicts that comprise them?

    To selectively ommit or modify the principles and edicts of a religion is to admit that it is not the supernatural divine force that it falsely purports to be, but an evolving human invention that is shaped to conform with contemporary political agendas and pressures.

    Therefore, criticising muslims for the strictness with which they adhere to their beliefs is, well, ‘fundamentally’ stupid.

    And if Sharia Law implements God’s will for the rule of society, why should a democratically empowered muslim majority accomodate the non-Islamic demands of non-muslims? Because the idea of democracy predominates over the principles of Islam? It makes no sense that people who ‘know’ they are right should accomodate those things that they ‘know’ are wrong.

    So, asking muslims to be less muslim doesn’t make sense.

  400. Arsalan,

    The wide spread support you refer to are the support of the people who lost.

    Ah, this is rather telling. What you mean is, people are entitled to vote in the Brotherhood, but if the popular will is to the chuck the Brotherhood out, they should not be permitted to. This makes your argument even more inconsistent: in Egypt, I previously assumed you would support democracy until such time as a Sharia party dismantles the fledgling mechanisms of democracy. Now it seems, if they throw a Sharia party out in (what might be) a popular bloodless revolution, you’d ignore their democratic will even earlier!

    I earlier asked you if you believed that this was not a popular revolution. However, the reportage appears to show it has widespread support, and you’ve not come back to me on that, so I assume you believe the reports to be accurate.

    If it was the other way. And the Islamist had lost the election, and did a coup to take power, i’m sure you would condemn it out right woundn’t you?

    If we’re talking the Brotherhood here, you’re completely wrong about my view, which invalidates at a stroke everything you’ve said about me being undemocratic. If a democratic Islamic party (which I assume the Brotherhood to be) has huge popular support, in contrast to the incumbent which is hugely unpopular, then I think a bloodless coup would reflect the will of the people, and I’d cautiously support it. (Coups are, of course, not subject to democracy’s checks and balances, but they are sometimes better than tolerating a dreadful regime).

    However, if the nature of an Islamist party was to oppress its own people, and a reasonable analysis of a coup suggested that such a ruling power would treat the people in a worse fashion than the last lot (police state, extrajudicial punishments, no legal system, rule by decree, no mechanisms to regulate power, etc) then there would be reasons to reject it. But, as things stand in Egypt, I think I would support a popular coup from the Brotherhood, since they seemed to want to rule more fairly than Mubarak’s gang.

    As I say though, the events on the ground appear to be going the wrong way for you. You are so desperate for an Islamic party, you’d force it on the Egyptian people even if they march in their millions against it.

  401. It occurs to me that a solution to the present woes would be to hold another election, to underscore (or reject) the legitimacy of the new government. Here’s an interesting article with a new representative.

  402. Interesting observation: When I read Jemand’s comment of 8:29am, today, I thought had been written by Arsalan.

    Arsalan, I’m sorry to have to say this, but I think you’ve been sold a crock. Calling for Apartheid and lebensraum is the politics of C20th Nazism.

    Is it not ironic – and this may be discomfiting or embarrassing or maybe even inappropriate for me to iterate this – that as far as one is aware, all the supporters of Islamism who post regularly on this blog are (possibly white, British) converts to Islam who appear to have swallowed, hook line and sinker, the C20th postmodern dogmas of Sayyid Qutb, Abul A’la Maududi et al and believe it is the sole truth. They also presume to speak for one billion Muslims, which seems to me a sign of supreme arrogance. This combination justifiably might be described as, ‘supremacism’.

    The truth is, thankfully, they do not even speak for the majority of (white, British) converts to Islam.

    Nonetheless, they politics they espouse must be opposed on every level from within Muslim communities. This is not helped by Saudi Arabia/UAE bankrolling Islamist preachers and paramilitaries and by the strategic alliance of the UK in particular with Saudi Arabia and the tactical alliance of the UK with Islamist paramilitaries. As Jemand’s comment also exemplifies, the Far Right and indeed what one might continue to call imperialists (of which the British Far Right partly is a manifestation) actually are very comfortable with (that mirror-image Far Right) of Islamism because it fits with their political philosophy and serves their interests. That should tell us something.

  403. “My criticism comes from the left, not the right…” Jon.

    Jon, they hate the Left above all else. They like the Right. They are of that aspect of the Right which is defined by tribalism. The Right likes them – because they serve each other’s purposes and because Lebensraum is a political philosophy common to both.

    We see this globally. Saudi Arabia/UAE/Pakistani ISI-Military (the Right) bankrolls and supports them and the first two of these remain (have been since WW1) firm strategic allies of (the Right) in the form of NATO/USA/UK et al.

  404. Suhayl, how does my comment exemplify the far-right? Or are you saying that I am far-right and identify with the far-right nature of Islamists as demonstrated by my comment? How is that?

    In any case, you’d be wrong. My comment is but a logical argument about the irrational criticism of ‘muslim fundamentalism’ as if any religious belief ‘should’ not observe fundamental principles from which they supposedly derive the laws and customs that characterise their culture. To put it simply, if I must, why would someone act in contravention of their stated beliefs?

    All monotheistic religions are supreme because they claim to know of and are faithful to a supreme power in the form of a God. And, they often claim, they know God’s will and his will is that all of humanity is to surrender to it, and their job is to ensure that. Supremacists? Yes. So what? Religions weren’t conceived to be pluralistic.

  405. Suhayl, agreed. I was responding to Arsalan’s implication that I’m gullible enough to have been taken in by the reactionary British media. I thought that it was important to reject that specifically, and to note that I am sympathetic to Islamic people in Britain whilst they’re under Official Government And Media Suspicion. It’s a balancing act, of course, since one doesn’t want to accomodate religious political fundamentalism either.

  406. Suhayl, I think you misread Jemand. I think his contribution was from an atheist standpoint (see his link) but was suggesting (perhaps with some irony, to highlight its contradictions) that there’s no such thing as religious fundamentalism, since religious belief is so hard to pin down.

    That said, Jemand, I do think there’s a fault in your analogy. Scientists, doctors and engineers cannot be less “fundamentalist” with their work because they deal with the real, physical, proven world. Religions can, and do change, and since their very nature requires faith. By fundamentalism, I mean that the context and time of the holy books’ creation is ignored, and thus the spirit of God’s laws becomes increasingly incorrectly applied as time goes on.

    In the Old Testament, it is written that a menstruating women should be shunned for seven days, which because of our understanding of biology, and decent moves towards equality of worth, we now correctly regard as stupid. Perhaps the rule to smash any jar that had a lizard fall into it was a primitive understanding of hygiene, but now we would just use hot water and soap. Early rules on abstaining from sexual behaviour stemmed either from reducing STDs (hardly understood at the time) or derived from shame-based psychologies (hardly understood at the time).

    I accept the danger that one could rewrite a religion and lose its original spirit, but if a process of modernisation is undertaken by leading scholars of that religion, taking into account the changed circumstances of the world, I see that great strides could be made.

    I would rather that people did not wear their religion on their sleeve; in fact, I wish people were not religious at all. But as I said recently, people must be entitled to make up their own mind upon that.

  407. Okay, thanks, Jemand, very sorry if I misread your comment. Perhaps it was the context of the stream of comments that led me astray.

  408. “people are entitled to vote in the Brotherhood, but if the popular will is to the chuck the Brotherhood out,”

    What do you mean it was the popular will to chuck them out?
    LOL
    What planet do you live on?
    The army chucked them out!
    The same army that have been ruling for all these years.

  409. SS

    LOL

    I can repeat what I said to Jon to you.
    What planet do you live on!
    You call the Islamists a minority when they won the election.
    LOL
    You say:
    “This is not helped by Saudi Arabia/UAE bankrolling Islamist preachers and paramilitaries and by the ”

    When Islamists are tortured, arrested and murdered in these countries.
    When it was these two countries who sent billions to the people that did the coup.
    LOL
    What planet do you live on?
    I think to accuse you of lying would be an understatment?

  410. Arsalan, by “popular will” I mean “the opinion of the majority of the citizenry”. Here’s that story again, please read all of it. Here’s an important bit:

    A military source told Reuters that as many as 14 million people in the country of 84 million took part in the demonstrations.

    What appears to be happening is that the people no longer support the Brotherhood. I accept that may not be true, but if that’s your view, please supply alternative links that show a different picture.

    I agree that the army staged a coup, and I agree that it is largely Mubarak’s old army. But the Egyptian public seem to widely support what is happening. What is your view on that, please?

  411. For what it’s worth, a similar demonstration against the British government would have to comprise of about 10 million people around the country (based on our having 60m citizens). I would say that such a figure would constitute an uprising were it to happen, and if their demand was to topple the government, elections would have to be called immediately.

    As to whether the British army should seize power in such circumstances, that’s a difficult question. It has been suggested on this board in the past that they would look to the monarch for guidance. I’m not in favour of the monarchy, but I think the Queen would probably handle such a duty quite well (and the likes of Philip or Armaments Andy would be disastrous).

  412. @Jon 

    “Suhayl, I think you misread Jemand. I think his contribution was from an atheist standpoint ..”

    Correct, but I think seeing these contradictions doesn’t require atheism, I would hope that it leads to atheism. But so many believers are in denial of these anomolies while they laugh at Scientology’s ridiculous claims.

    “Scientists, doctors and engineers cannot be less “fundamentalist” with their work because they deal with the real, physical, proven world.”

    Jon, this idea of what is real, inside and outside the apparent physical realm, is a subject of endless philosophical contention – to my enjoyment. We can agree, I think, that the hard problem of consciousness is one example of the unknown that leads us to understand that our collective knowledge is a subset of all that can be known. Religious believers exploit these examples of knowing that something exists without knowing how it exists. They will say that their beliefs are unprovably true (when they lose the first round of the debate). But you and I know that unfalsifiable beliefs are just bullshit. 

    Religions can, and do change, and since their very nature requires faith. By fundamentalism, I mean that the context and time of the holy books’ creation is ignored, and thus the spirit of God’s laws becomes increasingly incorrectly applied as time goes on. 

    True, religion evolves by political selection but believers are in denial about the reasons for change. We can see a lot of that in Catholicism as it adapts to new political and social pressures. But I don’t see how anyone can authoritatively know what the “spirit of God’s laws” can be if they are not already understood from the text of the scriptures.

    Science, on the other hand, also changes but scientists (mostly, I think) accept the inevitability of change as we accumulate ‘knowledge’ in our exploration of the physical and metaphysical universe.

    In the Old Testament, it is written that a menstruating women should be shunned
    for seven days, which because of our understanding of biology, and decent moves
    towards equality of worth, we now correctly regard as stupid. 

    Whoa! Let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water. I didn’t say I disagree with everything in religious beliefs.

    I accept the danger that one could rewrite a religion and lose its original spirit, but if
    a process of modernisation is undertaken by leading scholars of that religion, taking into account the changed circumstances of the world, I see that great strides could be made.

    But what is the “original spirit” of religious texts? This is a perennial source of conflict, a bit like American constitutional law with regard to the original spirit of the “founding fathers” in drafting the clauses of the constitution.

    Indeed, in all Abrahamic scriptures, it is a sin to admit, modify or omit anything that was not originally written in them – and I think, by implication, all interpretations that depart from unambiguous statements. From this, we witness internal divisions between reformers and conservatives, the latter referring to the former as heretics. See link below.

    I would rather that people did not wear their religion on their sleeve; in fact, I wish people were not religious at all. But as I said recently, people must be entitled to make up their own mind upon that.

    I agree, to the extent that their beliefs do not target me for harrassment, discrimination or social antipathy.
    . . . .

    God will shit on you if you change the gospels -
    http://www.bible.ca/interactive/salvation-21-must-follow-bible-exactly.htm

  413. Jon was that some sort of Joke?
    Were you trying to get a laugh out of that or do you really believe what you write?

    “A military source told Reuters that as many as 14 million people in the country of 84 million took part in the demonstrations.”

    Can anyone spot the Key word there?

    here is a clue, it comes after the first word “A” and before the third word “source”.

    But to be honest, if the army that did the coup told you, they did it because 100 million egyption citizens demonstrated in a country with a population of 80 million you will still find it as believable.

  414. Arsalan, you have claimed that nobody wants Sharia law for the UK. How do you explain the agenda of Hizbut Tahrir?

  415. Arsalan, so your view is that the army is misrepresenting the level of support for the coup? How do you explain the pictures of the recent demonstrations then?

    I am very well versed in how propaganda is used in the MSM, so accurate answers please. Perhaps the pictures are from the first wave of the revolution that ousted Mubarak? Or, perhaps they are faked? Or, maybe the numbers are accurate, but they all support Morsi? Or some other explanation?

    At present, each of your contributions doesn’t shed more light onto the discussion, and I have to exert substantial effort to obtain an accurate understanding of what you think. At present, my view is that you supported the first revolution because you agree with it, and you wish to quell this second revolution because you disagree with it.

  416. Jemand HT are working to establish an Islamic state in the Muslim world.

    I wish you lot would go and ask people what they work for instead of relaying on ruport murdock for your information.

    I repeat no Islamic group is taking part in elections here to take over. No Islamic group has constructed an army and are stock piling weapons to take over. No Islamic group are in negiotiations with the army here to do a coup.
    Islamic groups that get involved in Politics do so to make a change in Muslim countries.

    Jon
    As I have told you before.
    the coup does have its supporters.
    Mubarak did have his supporters.
    Whether they equal 1 million, 10 million or even more. They are the minority that loss the election.
    They are the minority that kept power for many decades using the army, and soon after the elections they have taken power again.
    And they intend to keep power.
    That is why they have arrested hundreds of Brotherhood members. Taken all brotherhood assests. Fire at brotherhood demonstrations and kill as many as they can.

  417. Jemand.

    I think there is a difference between the words “want” and “work towards”.

    For example, if the people and government of this country became Muslim here and now and said “We want to rule by Islam”.

    And then they ruled this country by Islam.

    Would I see that as a good thing?
    Would Muslims see that as a good thing?
    Would groups like HT, Islam for UK, or even moderate groups, and groups that don’t get involved or even care about politics see that as a good thing?

    Yes!
    We will all see that as a good thing.
    So you can say, Muslims want that.

    But are any Muslims working towards that?
    No.
    A Muslim might read the quran. And say “chop the hand of the theif”. But do we go about doing it here?
    No.
    Do we loby parliemant to introduce that law?
    No.
    No Muslims in general. Not HT, Not ISlam 4 UK. No one does.
    Muslim groups that talk about ISlamic state and rulling by ISlam do so in regards to Muslim countries.

  418. Arsalan, I think you are ignoring the evidence I’ve put to you, and you won’t answer my points, so I’ll leave it there. Best wishes to you.

  419. what you site as evidence isn’t evidence.
    Will you use statements from the dear leaders millitry in North Korea as evidence of how the north koreans love him?
    What you site as evidence can be described as a joke at best, but most probably something worse.

    Your photo of the demonstration was even worse than your quote from the army that did the coup.
    You can’t really use a picture of a demonstration in support of the army coup as evidence that people support it when the army shoots at people demonstration in against their coup.

    Well I can see that, if you can’t, maybe it is best that we leave it.

  420. We call for democcracy for the natives.
    That is unless the feeble minded natives vote for anyone but who we tell them to vote for!

  421. “I think to accuse you of lying would be an understatment?” Arasalan.

    That also crosses the line. But no matter. Here are two points:

    1) Saudi Arabia and the UAE continue to bankroll Sunni Islamism and the ISI of Pakistani continues to run its paramilitary training camps.

    Is that a lie?

    2) You do not represent one billion people.

    Is that a lie?

  422. And more:

    3) The UK and USA are in a strategic alliance with Saudi Arabia and the UAE.

    Is that a lie?

    4) The UK and France and others helped the Islamist paramilitary forces in Libya and continue to help them in Syria. The USA and UK (along with Pakistan) helped create the Islamist paramilitary forces in Pakistan during the 1980s.

    Are these, lies?

  423. 5) And finally, Arsalan, you are a white man who claims to speak for what you depict as “brown people” and for all Muslims.

    Are either of these claims, true?

  424. Heh, I was going to leave this one, wasn’t I? :D

    Arsalan: the reason I suspect that the Guardian story is true is simple – perhaps I should have stated it before. The Guardian makes some very clear points:

    1. 14 million people have recently demonstrated in Egypt
    2. They are demonstrating against the elected Morsi government
    3. The spirit of this second major demonstration is a grassroots continuation of the first
    4. The demonstrators believe that the promises made to the people after the first revolution have substantially not been met
    5. They want a new government to be formed

    Now, the media isn’t always accurate, and sometimes it gets things wrong, and sometimes it is used as a conduit for outright propaganda. However, in this case, each of these points can be very easily checked. This is especially the case since the advent of blogging and micro-blogging, well-established in Egypt.

    So, my contention is that all of those statements are true, and it would not be possible for Guardian to make a deliberately false claim. If you believe that they have made a mistake, which of the above points do you contest?

    Or, do you believe that a revolution of any size should be repressed?

  425. Interesting letters in the Guardian, one for, and three against the coup. I’ll cheerfully admit that when I find myself saying the things as that criminal Anthony Blair, I have pause for thought.

    Notwithstanding, your answer to my above questions would be most welcome.

  426. The interactions on the subject of “Islam-ism” on this board is tainted with a mixture of; daily two minutes hate, bias against religion, bias against religious observance, and bias against perceived liberal values.

    These tainted abstractions are then subject to vigorous proletarianisations, in an almost comical interaction that clearly indicates the sallow understanding of those defending their attempt in guiding the errand “Islam-ist” onto the righteous path of “liberalism”.

    The lazy catch all “Islam-ism” has come to encompass any debate about the countries in the mid-east. Fact that “Islam-ist” themselves are in differing factions with disparate political and moral imperatives somehow is never entertained, and the generalisations further obfuscate the issues further.

    The current anti-Muslim band wagon further encourages this obfuscation, because without any such confusions the neo-liberal doctrine of intervention for the benefit of the “poor oppressed” that includes: Women, minorities, secular liberals, “trapped” in the clutches of the “Islam-ists” who are bent on enforcing “sharia” on these downtrodden people. This of course is achieved through humongous killings of the recalcitrant and reactionary “Islam-ists” by carpet bombing of their countries.

    Egypt was subject of the “colour/spring revolution” introduced by the same sponsors who set up Saakashvili because Georgians were sick of their last “dictator”! These days the oppression in Georgia is never the subject of any “news reports” or articles, because our man from Uncle is at the helm.

    Morsi turned out to be a bit of a handful and soon the “Coup d’État: A Practical Handbook” was referred to and a short time thereafter Morsi and his MB are now behind the bars as the “balance” is restored and the Generals are back in power.

    All is well because the “democratically” elected Morsi is really a Hitler and all that and ballot boxes are meaningless because “democracy” is what the West decrees, and it varies from day to day sort of depending on who has won, and what has been the result of the the ballots?

  427. Suhayl Saadi

    Nice attempt to change the subject?

    So let me get this straight, even though MB is illigal in UAE and Saudi. Even though there was mass arrest of MB in UAE just before the coup. Even though they are excuted in Saudi.
    Even because of all this, to you MB won the egyption election due to Saudi and UAE support?
    Even though UAE and Saudi gave billions to the generals after the coup?

    What world do you live in?

    Well one where democratically elected governments are dictatorships, and the unelected army that removes them is a democracy?

  428. Jon

    It was your own quote that said that information came from a millitry source.
    :)
    I didn’t make that up, if anything it was you.

    And the guardians support of the millity coup in egypt after an Islamic government was elected does not come to me as a surprise.
    That news paper supported the army in Algeria too when the Muslims won the election there.

    A lot of whites have a racist mentality. They like to talk about how democratic they are.
    But when brown people elect people whites don’t like.
    Whites suddenlt loss their democracy?

    LOL

    Sort of like how you preach freedom of religion to us lot, when it is your own countries with bans on Hijab.

  429. Yes I don’t represent 1 billion people, or 2 billion for that matter.
    What what the elections in egypt represented was the will of 50 % +20 %=70% of 80 million people.
    And that doesn’t mean anything to you does it.
    Because when these people vote for something you and the white master race don’t like, you support the unelected Pro Israeli army. An Army that was given f16 after the coup by the Americans, billions by the saudis and UAE. But yet you still carry on saying, MB win was some American plan, because Saudi and UAE may or may not give some Money to stuff the Pakistani government does?

    Only you alone know what any of that has to do with the elections in egypt.
    Well I think you don’t know, it was just you attempt change the subject.
    Nice try.

  430. Yes you and tony Blair agree on it.
    Lesser races need the divine guidence of the mighty white race when it comes to ruling themselves.
    Invasions to bring democracy when it comes to Afghanistan and Iraq.
    And coups to remove it when it comes to Egypt and Algeria.
    Well, any nation where silly people use their democractic rights to vote for anyone the white masters dont want them to vote for?

  431. Arsalan, I put five points to you, and by coincidence, so did Suhayl. I should very much like you to write out the numbers 1 to 5 in the comment box, and adjacent to each digit, answer the questions put to you – from either of us – as fully as you can. If you are willing to do both sets, great.

    Here’s an example of what I mean:

    1. “14 million people have recently demonstrated in Egypt”. (You might say here that you believe this not to be true, and then you can explain why you believe that, or supply a link that shows it to be false).

    Thanks.

  432. Jon,
    I thought it would have become obvious by now, that I don’t take orders?

    I answer whatever I want in anyway I want.
    The days of colonialism are over.

    14, seems far fetched, especially as you quoted, a un-named Millitry source.
    Don’t you think that is biased?
    I mean the army just removed a democratically elected government after the army had ruled for about 50 years and you think what the army says is trust worthy?

    And to add to the point you show a picture of a crowed. Which maywell contain a lot of people, hundreds, maybe even thousands.
    But it in no way proves the millitries claim.

    But lets say there was a trust worthy head count of everyone in the demos by a third party and not the people who did the coup.
    And it showed that 14 mil of the 18 mil that supports the army went on to the streets.

    It might be a justification for you.
    Because your democratic princles end with the election of people you disagree with.
    And you seem to ignore the fact that when any of the 40 mil + 16 mil = 56 mil demonstrate againt the coup they are shot at. And as soon as the coup happened 500 of their leaders were arrested, many more since.
    For the crime of winning the election.

    So not only is what you say suspicius, it is also not relivant at all.

    The election showed what most people wanted. But because they want something you don’t want. the elections don’t mean much to you.
    Well to be honest, I would say they don’t mean much to me too.
    You believe in your secularist principles, if most people want it. All well and good. But if they don’t, you exchange your democratic princiles for fascism.
    Where hundreds of people are arrested for winning elections. where demonstrations in support of democraitically elected parties are shot at by the army. Not only when they are in peaceful demonstrations. But also when they are in prayer!
    So by saying what I did I was just showing your hypocrisy.
    I was in no way saying I believe in YOUR democracy.
    YOUR white mans democracy. I was just showing you don’t.
    In the past white men went to the countries of brown men. And said “we will teach you religion, close your eyes”, when the brown men did, and opened them. They found a bible in their hands and thier lands and wealth in the hands of white men.
    All your democracy, your freedom and all your values are just like your christianity. You use them as a slogan when it suits you, and reject them when it doesn’t.

    Muslims should stop believing in the lies of whitemen.
    I repeat the Brotherhood were idiots to take part in the election.
    They should have realise it was a trick used by the white colonial masters to destroy the main opposition to millitry rule.

  433. I’ve not ordered you to do anything. But, if I were to loudly insist that you do not answer my questions, I suspect you’d still find a way to avoid engaging with the debate :D

    Ah well.

  434. Jon, you tried your best. Anyway, your arguments are clear to other readers, so all is not wasted.

    It appears to me as an outsider that a change of govt in Egypt was a popular demand, just lamentable that the process was not more orderly such as a re-election instead of a coup. Decent constitutions should take such circumstances into account and provide for a civilian solution rather than depend on the might of the military who will often have their own, parallel, political agenda. It’s back to the drawing board for Egypt.

  435. Jemand the change of government was a popular demand with the people who didn’t vote for the government.

    And yes, there will be a change in constitution. Like happened in Algeria after the elections there which was followed by a millitry coup.
    One where people can only vote for who they are told to vote for.
    One where if someone is elected, he can only do what he is allowed to do.
    Like Turkey where the government that won by a massize majority are not even allowed to legalise the Muslim Head scarf in for University students let alone dream of allowing school girls to wear it.

    Muslims need to learn, voting changes nothing.
    It doesn’t matter if you have 50% +1, 70% like in Egypt, 98% like in Algeria or even 100%.
    None of it matters, they will never allow you to rule by what you want to rule by.
    And the people who cry that you should respect the vote if you are a minority are the first to support millitry dictatorships when you are the majority.

    Might is right.
    That is all that matters.
    Muslims won elections time and time again, only to have power taken off them by coups.
    So Muslims have to realise the only way to take power is if they themselves do the coup.

  436. Since Arsalan seems unwilling to acknowledge what I thought was common knowledge, okay, let’s do specifically Egypt:

    1) Mubarak regime illegitimate. People -largely not the Islamists – get rid of it.

    2) Quick elections to try for stability. Islamists are best organised and promise better future. People give them a chance and the Islamists are voted into power.

    3) Islamists do what they always do when they into power, but they do it too quickly in Egypt (unlike the ones on the AKP in Turkey) and basically try to turn the structures of the state – judiciary, etc. – into their fiefdom. But more than that, crucially, they do everything the IMF wants them to do, like a good little native elite (again).

    4) “Bread, freedom, justice” is the cry. The Islamists have betrayed the revolution. Many milions of Egyptian people rise up and demand the Islamists relinquish power. The Army steps in to stop the people from taking control and again, to install their own placemen. Yet more neoliberals who have no new ideas or policies wrt the IMF et al.

    Rest assured, if ‘Bread, Justice and Freedom’ are not facilitated, there will be yet more unrest. The Islamists have been seen for what they are, simply the IMF + God (neither of which deliver bread, justice, freedom). The tide is begining to turn.

  437. 1 Mubarak was one person in his regime. Not the only person. Now he is gone, but his regime minus him is back. These generals who removed this elected government didn’t just apear from no where. They were part of Mubaraks regime.

    What you call the Islamist, are the people.
    They are not shiped in from some place else.
    And they are not just the people, the election showed, they are at least 70% of the people.
    I say at least, because a lot of who you call Islamist would never vote in kufr elections.
    Others knew it was a trap which would be followed by a coup, supported by you, yours and your governments. :)

    2: they won, get over it. you are clearly someone that fully supports democracy when it elects who you would vote for. Anything else and then you are a facist.
    :)

    3) Now in Turkey, the Islamist that were voted in are just poster boys. They can’t really do anything but smile for the camera. What ever law they make with how ever high majority. The Kamalist veto it.

    And when the facts don’t suit you, you respond with a lie again. Mursi didn’t do what the IMF wanted, and the IMF refused to give the loan.
    But how ever evil the ISlamist are, the people of Egypt know them. And voted for them. And you just can’t take it that they are not Liberal secularists like yourself can you?
    With all due respect, you are pathetic.

    4) Yes millions don’t want the Islamist. But those millions were in the minority. the Millions that do want them won the elections.
    And they are the ones that get shot when they demonstrate, get arrested when they win elections.
    And that is your democracy.
    :)
    So shove your democracy up your arse.
    It is time for Muslims to learn democracy is a lie. Freedom is a lie.
    It is just dictatorship and fascism by another name.

    The Disbeliever have their own system based on their disbelief. And we have our own system based on our religion. Their kufr democracy will never allow us to rule by Islam no matter how high our majority is.
    So what we must do is take power. It is time for us to stop dreaming that change is possible by voting and engineer our own coup. And rule by our own book.
    It is time to reverse sykes picot and reestablish the Khilafah.

    3)

  438. My message to Mursi, the Muslim Brotherhood and anyone else that believes in the ballot box is, I told you so.
    LOL
    When will you lot ever learn. ;)

    Will you learn from this mistake, or repeat it a few more times before you start doing what really works?

  439. “It is time to… reestablish the Khilafah.” Arsalan.

    And to re-establish Peter Pan?

  440. Arsalan, when you disagree with someone on a political matter, it is not necessary to insinuate that they are lying. It is more complex.

    http://socialistunity.com/the-role-of-the-imf-in-morsis-downfall/

    http://middleeastvoices.voanews.com/2013/05/insight-lessons-not-learned-in-egypt-39163/

  441. @arsalan – it’s unnecessary (and wrong) to suggest Suhayl is a fascist, pathetic, lying etc. He is playing with a very straight bat, and seems very willing to debate with you. But you won’t concede any ground, ever. That means you’re hear to preach, not to engage or listen.

    In my view, it is better for to you honestly question the foundations of your opinions than to cling to them blindly – in the latter lies a dangerous path. I’ve learnt a lot from Craig and others here, about liberal thought, the complexities of Israel/Palestine, human psychology, the worldwide financial systems, feminism, religion – really the whole lot. With the best of sentiments in mind, I wish I could “bottle it”, this thirst for knowledge and learning, so you might drink it.

    I don’t claim that it makes me entirely right – actually, I think where people drink of it, it helps us all see where we are wrong. I recommend it to you, with the best of intentions.

  442. ss
    You call our religion Peter Pan. We call our religion, our religion.
    And we choose to follow all of it, including that bits you are not very comfortable with.

    You might call you statements something other then a lie, but then again. You regard an elected government as dictatorship and a millitry coup as the will of the people.

    Jon,
    You sound like Blair.
    Boohooo
    “Muslim Fundamentalist is unhappy with me for supporting a millitry coup, and the killings that came with it.”
    Boohooo
    “Why wont he concede any ground?”
    “Can’t we just all get along!”
    LOL
    In a lot of issues there is ground to give.
    Well not here, when people have been arrested only for the crime of winning an election.
    To call winning an election a dictatorship and to call a coup the will of the people isn’t a difference of opinion. it is orwellian.
    Tony blair would be so proud!

    Just to make clear, I am not, nor have I ever been a supporter of the brotherhood.
    So this isn’t an issue of they are right cause they are my people.
    My point is, they are the people of the Egyption people.
    And what you and sahal say about the ability of the egyption people to choose their own government smacks of racism of the most extreme kind.
    It is the colonialist mindset. Whitemans burden.
    The same mindset that said whitemen liberated blacks by enslaving them.

    So yes, I do call you both facists.
    If that isn’t the word for the coup against an elected government, the arrest of hundreds of elected people, the killing of people who support those elected people, what is?

  443. What is this, Stockholm Syndrome? Lebensraum? “Our ways”. Yeah, sure. “Our ways”, defined by Maududi and Qutb and propelled by the House of Ibn Saud.

    Cannot keep your fangs hidden for long can you?

    Why do you assume Arsalan is “white” and lives in this country?

    Throughout the debate you have conflated “Islam-ism” with extreme Wahhabi school of thought that in fact are a reactionary off shoot bent on perpetuation of the current status quo; the Saudi/Qatari/Kuwaiti/Bahraini ruling pederasts to be kept in power, with the help of the “religious leadership” misinterpretation of Islam, aided by the fire power of their sponsors the Western political carpetbaggers.

    Fact is you should know that “Islam-ism” or political Islam is not the Wahhabi schools’ philosophy, yet you insist on conflating Political Islam and the reactionary Wahhabi doctrine as one and the same, hence your constant references to “jihadists”, “taliban”, “ISI inspired taliban”, etc.

    Arsalan is only reacting to the hatred towards Muslims, and interference in their affairs that is so matter of course and taken as granted entitlement of the outsiders. This can be to any impartial observer.

  444. I should clarify something, even though previously I couldn’t be bothered.

    What race am I?

    I will start with what I am not.
    I don’t belong to the white, black or asian race.

    I am me. One Person.
    Who do I share my race with?
    About 7 billion people.
    The Human race.
    As someone that believes in a creator, that created mankind from a single pair, (not many racial pairs).
    I believe I am one of the children of Adam, or Bani Adam, and so are the 7 billion other bags of flesh I share this planet with.

    When I mention race, it is an attack on racism. I think that is obvious to everyone. Because only one person indicated it was something other than that, and I don’t think that person was being honest in that confusion.

    Something I want to clarify to everyone. I don’t recognise the words Islamism/Islamist.
    There is the arabic root word s l m, (to submit, he submitted past tense).
    When refering to a person, that has done this, we add the letter m, infront. Muslim. When refering to the system, it is Islam.
    So there is no room for words such as Islamist, because a person that believes in Islam is a Muslim. Islam is the system, so there is no need to indicate a system by adding an ist at the end.

    Something I want to clarify to all the non-Muslims here.
    When it comes to “the extreme wahabi school of thought”.
    I don’t recognise the term.
    The word Wahabi is only used as an insult in the Muslim world. No one lables themselves Wahabi.
    There are four Sunni schools of thought. Hanafi, Shafi, Malaki and Hanbali.
    The word Wahabi can be used as an insult to someone who follows muhammad ibn abdul wahhab a 18th century Hanbali scholer that helped the Saudi family rebel against the ottoman(who were Hanafi) Khilafat.
    So to make a conection between the followers of the 3 other schools with Wahabi is ignorant beyond belief. I would say, it is lying to fool the ignorant. If the word Wahabi can be used for anyone, such a person would regard the Taliban, the brotherhood and any other group that are commonly labeled as Islamist to be heretics.

    To use it for someone that believes in the re-establishment of the Khilafah is beyond dishonest. Remembering that it was the followers of muhammad ibn abdul wahhab that rebeled against the Ottoman Khilafah and established the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

    This is one of the reasons why I used the word lying, and not mistaken.

  445. More hot air and absolutism. Goodness me. This political psychosis is what we in ‘the Muslim communities’ (however one wants to define that) are dealing with. Everything in the posts above comes straight from the mouths of Sayyib Qutb and Mawlana Maududi, only sort of… mass produced like plastic toys. It’s like a cross between the Manson Family and Peter Pan. It is an abrogation of thought. They have no idea how bizarre they sound, and how bizarre they would’ve sounded 40, 70, 100 years ago in majority Muslim countries. Ah, the irony!

  446. However it sounds. And whether 70% + of the population voted the way they did because they picked up a copy written by Qutb or Maududi, they did vote the way they did.
    I don’t believe they did, because under mubarak both authers were banned and people would go to prison for a very long time for the crime of being caught with one of their books.
    You know this, so I don’t believe you are being entirely honest with that statement.
    More likely, they want to be ruled by Islam because they read another book that wasn’t banned in Egypt, even under Mubarak. The Quran.

    You may have voted different. But they voted for what you call “political psychosis “. political psychosis is what the majority of the population want to be ruled by it is there business.
    But be honest 40, 70, and a 100 years ago. People didn’t decide, lets abandone the Islamic ruling system and follow the enlightened white men.
    The French and then the British invaded Egypt, and imposed their way of life on Egypt.
    The mentality you talk of that existed in the not too distant past wasn’t by choice, it was imposed by guns, bombs and torture. Just as this coup isn’t by choice, it is by guns,arrests and torture.

    What did the French, The British, Nasir, Sadat and Hosni do to people that wanted their rule to be replaced by Islamic law?

    The same applies to the rest of the Muslim world.

  447. And before the French, Arabs invaded Egypt and imposed Islam on the people there.

    Arsalan, don’t pull that self-righteous bullshit on us about the innocence of muslims in their own brutal political ambitions and proselytizing. You muslims accuse each other of heresy and treason, and claim the high ground of divine purity for your own sects, but what you all have in common is you call yourselves muslims. You are what you say and do and you can’t blame others for it – they didn’t put words in your mouths, they didn’t swing the swords that you wield to slaughter your enemies – you did.

  448. Before the arabs it was the romans,etc. And the UK is nothing but German tribes and others invading the BRitish Isles. Every nation has come from some place else.

    Re-read the context of what was said.
    What was meant was westernisation was alien, and came from an external source. An invasion.
    Islam is the natural state of Muslims.

    It was said in Suhayl Saadi

    17 Jul, 2013 – 7:47 am

    Where he stated “bizarre they would’ve sounded 40, 70, 100 years ago”. Well that golden age of westernisation he talks about was imposed by force. And people are now returning to what they once were.

    My point was, what was removed by force is coming back by choice.
    And the westernised minority are confused between supporting the western slogan of democracy or support the imposition of the ways of the west by continued dictatorship.
    Because during dictatorship, they said, “why can’t we be democratic like the white man”, but when there is a free vote, and the people vote for the most Islamic parties the army and the imperialists allow them to, they scream for dictatorship to save them from the results of democracy.

    I am not being self rightious at all. What I am stating is westernisation was imposed, it wasn’t by choice. And the return of Islam isn’t being imposed by some external choice, that is what is by choice.

    The hypcrits that want to claim they believe in democracy when they really believe in facist dictatorships that imposes ways of other nations on people who do not want it, but insist they are calling for what those people want.

    Just to clarify I haven’t even mentioned my sect or school of thought, let alone say it is the best. The people I am saying were democractically elected and choosen by the egyptian people, aren’t even people I agree with.
    What I am saying, the election has shown they are the people the egyption people agree with.
    If your statements refer to what you read from me, I am confused on what gave you that idea.

    Not that it has anything to do with the democratically elected government being removed by the army being democracy. The brotherhood are not secterian. They don’t belong to one particular sect or school of thought.
    But come to think about it. I don’t know many Islamic political parties that are secterian at least not the ones that want a unification of Muslim lands in to a large Islamic state.
    Secterianism stands in the way of this aim in the same way racism and nationalism would.

    That is why I mentioned, to contect groups like MB to the Saudi state is so idiotic, and when said by people who know better, it is a lie.

  449. Arsalan, I’m not going to try to sell you, or anybody else, ‘democracy’ because I’m not a true believer. Although it is my default preference in the absence of anything better. But I will put forward the idea of realpolitik, which basically doesn’t give a shit about what people want, unless of course, they have the power to achieve their objectives.

    With that in mind, you can want anything you like, including the formation of an Islamic state anywhere you want. Achieving what you want is another matter.

    As you know, muslims can faithfully use any means necessary to advance an Islamic agenda without apology. What you should also understand is, non-muslims can similarly use any means to advance their own agendas and not owe anybody an apology for it.

    So I guess I would like to ask is what do you hope to achieve, either personally or for Islam, by posting comments on this blog? You don’t need our approval, after all.

  450. The Saudi state is happy to export money, guns and personnel for Islamist paramiliatries but/ because they don’t want them on thie own soil, as they would be a threat to the Saudi monarchy. It’s an old deal that goes back some decades. Same with the UAE. To deny that Saudi Arabia/UAE actively support Islamist paramiliatries and their political wings across the (especially, but not exclusively, Muslim) world is surely to fly in the face of the evidence.

    Actually, I don’t agree with what the Egyptian Army has done. I think that again they have stopped the people taking power. But the Muslim Brotherhood and the IMF, together, have proved their uselessness in meeting the needs of the people of Egypt. That is why, having voted the Muslims Brotherhood in, the many millions of Egyptians rose up and kicked it out of government. The IMF remains in power, though, sadly. Ideally, the Egyptians will rise up again and boot out the IMF and its new proxies too (as did Argentina in the late 1990s).

    Ideas do not adhere to a single group in time or place, they never have.

  451. There is nothing ‘fundamental’ or ‘original’ or ‘authentic’ or ‘traditional’ about Islmaic Fundamentalists, though they claim all of these attributes. Islamism as we know it today is a thoroughly postmodern phenomenon – largely defined by what the Islamists would term ‘Western’ parameters – and is the product of a crisis of modernity in Islamic societies.

  452. So what adjectives would you use, Suhayl, to comprehensively describe Islamic Fundamentalists, if they can indeed be described?

  453. Absolutist, supremacist, exclusivist, oppressive, lobotomising, postmodern… [these are the polite adjectives]

  454. Postmodern: Like everyone, they pick and choose and magnifiy and contract. But the difference is, they deny they are doing it, claim absolute truth for their interpretations and then fix their specific interpretations so that these interpretations cannot be questioned. They claim to sit outside of history, when it is clear that they are a product of history. They then oppress anyone who dares to question them. In Muslim counties, they kill those who dare to question them. This suggests both the insecurity of their interpretations and the nature of their concepts of power and governance.

  455. We see how they discourse on this blog. – not just now, at this juncture – but for years, the same slogans, the same bellicosity, the same need to view the world as black and white, to address politics in theological terms. That is emblematic. These are educated people – and many are educated people – but they have closed-down their minds. Islamism is an urban, middle class phenomenon. In these respects, it resembles a cult phenomenon; the Manson Family, writ large.

  456. I agree with all of that, Suhayl, but I don’t understand how you see these descriptions as not being a natural part of religion. All religions evolved by political processes – “evolution by political selection”, Darwin might have called it. And the past is replete with primitive, brutal violence which also infused its scriptures, edicts, culture etc.

    Can any religion, which by definition claims authority from invisible forces, be anything other that an anachronistic stone chained to our ankles as we try to stride into a future of enlightenment?

  457. Good point, Jemand. Yes. I certainly think that religion and politics should be kept separate.

  458. Jemand – Censorship

    I would say that is exactly what they are doing in the non-white world. Not just the Islamic world.
    Whether it is latin America, Asia or Africa.

    The key difference here is we are talking about ruling Muslim countries by Islam. And what others are talking about is ruling Muslim countries by secularism.
    No one is talking about ruling non-Muslim countries by Islam.
    This thread is about a party winning an election in egypt and the millitry removing them. Some people support the army take over and are hypocritical enough to claim to believe in democracy.

    I think if we are honest.
    Democracy doesn’t come in to anyones equation.
    I’m just not hypocritical enough to say it comes in to mine. While that people who belive in dictatorship when democracy results in something a little more Islamic than what is here and now, claim to believe in democracy.
    I call them liars. They should call themselves secularists instead of pretending to believe in democracy.

    When it comes to you saying democracy is your default setting.
    Does that only apply when people want what you want?
    Or does it equally apply to the situation in egypt?

    What am I doing on this forum to result in world wide islamic revival?
    Well nothing much. I’m not part of any group. So to be honest with you, I’m just wasting time. My spelling is rubbish, and writing here and in other forums about cooking and fish does help me improve it.

    I don’t really believe in any means necessary. Just a coup.

    But getting something in to context here.
    We are not talking about a fanatical fundamentalist like me getting in to power. Not someone that wants a world wide islamic state that covers as many muslim majority countries as possible.
    I wasn’t the one that won the election.
    Who won the election was the Muslim brother. a group that would pretty much rule by the system that exists there now. No Islamic law being impossed any where other then bans on Hijab and beards being lifted for government employees.
    But even that is too much Islam for the people that support the army.
    So this isn’t about the unreligious being forced to obey religion. It is about the religious being able to practice their religion freely.

  459. SS the saudi state is the American state. They support who America tells them to support. And stand against who America tells them to stand against.
    But to claim they support the brotherhood, and that is what we are talking about on this thread.
    Is a lie.
    Because the brotherhood are executed in Saudi, arrested and tortured in UAE. And both countries gave the Egyption army a hole heap of money when the army did the coup. And the Americans gave the egyption army f16s.

    When it comes to the ability to rule?
    Just how long have they been ruling?
    How many months?
    And how many more would it take for the country to feel the difference?

    SS
    You know as well as I do that this has nothing to do with the MB obeying the IMF too much.
    Why?
    Do you think the army that replaces them, the general that rules now who was Honsi Mubaraks right hand man. Do you think they will obey the IMF any less or much more than the brotherhood?
    So don’t play games.
    It wasn’t the egyption people that removed the brotherhood. It was the army.
    It takes 70% of the population more time to change their minds then straight after the election. You sure the demonstrations against them contained something other than the 30%?

  460. SS
    You say all this when it is the secularists who have just done all the above?
    Not just “Just”, but have been doing it during the many years they have ruled.

    Just as you call a army coup, the will of the people. you use the words that should be reserved for the secularists, who support dictators for the people who just won the election?

    So I just have one word for that:
    Hypocrisy!

  461. The westernised elite share this view. Honsi and the General that has just replaced him.
    These are the same words they would use for the people they rule “Absolutist, supremacist, exclusivist, oppressive, lobotomising, postmodern… [these are the polite adjectives]“.

    You believe religion and politics should be kept seperate. But I repeat the elections prove the vast majority of people in Muslim countries don’t agree with you.
    Is it because they are :

    “Absolutist, supremacist, exclusivist, oppressive, lobotomising, postmodern… [these are the polite adjectives]“.

    While you are the enlightened one?
    Are you sure these words don’t apply to you?

  462. In Muslim counties, they kill those who dare to question them. This suggests both the insecurity of their interpretations and the nature of their concepts of power and governance.

    What kind of a baseless assertion is this?

    Has the author researched and picked this little gem from Selective Memri?

    Islamism is an urban, middle class phenomenon. In these respects, it resembles a cult phenomenon; the Manson Family, writ large.

    Denounciatios abound, a clear lack of understanding of the Muslims evidently need not get in the way of a goodly diatribe.

    Given the freedoms that are to be held so sacred, could there be a slight matter of freedom of choice concerning the synthesis of a political doctrines from Islamic perspective? Although given the appalling record of the West in suppressing the minorities (other than certain minorities, that evidently can do no wrong) specifically the Muslims and blacks. Is it not an extension of such an unsavoury status quo that forbids the political aspirations of the Muslims?*

    - – -

    comprehensively describe Islamic Fundamentalists, if they can indeed be described?

    Politics And The English Language By George Orwell revisited, the term of “Muslim Fundamentalist” denotes a pejorative contextualization; reactionary, backward, retrograde construct, etc. Although curiously there has never been much of Jewish Fundamentalism bandied around, instead they are referred to as Orthodox Jews.

    * No sophistry and evocation of the tired and worn out bones of the Austrian Painter sporting a Moustache are to be accepted.

  463. Arsalan, no I don’t wish democracy for everyone, just me, for my benefit, for the time being. Although I might advocate democracy for certain situations where I believe it to be worthwhile. Democracy for Egypt? Only if people want it and if it will provide an enduring improvement to their lives. They have to work it out for themselves. If they want an Islamic state, then they can fight for that too.

    “No one is talking about ruling non-Muslim countries by Islam.”

    Well sorry, but plenty of people do, including Hizbut Tahrir – although you say they don’t talk about that. Remember, Arsalan, Islamic countries were once non-Islamic countries and we know that Islam came to dominate their lands not by democracy but by migration, invasion and conquest. Let’s not pretend that non-muslims have enjoyed the same rights in those Islamic countries as their muslim compatriots. And they certainly cannot practice lifestyles that are offensive to muslim sensibilities.
    . . . .

    Muslim Fundamentalists vs Ultra Orthodox Muslims – Yes, that sounds different.

  464. You see? As long as they are pampered and indulged here, they are fine. As soon as one questions their core views, there is an onslaught of vitriol. It is to be expected. This is how their political philosophy plays out, in practice, in every Muslim country today. It is the worst thing that has happened to Muslim societies in recent times.

    “In Muslim counties, they kill those who dare to question them.” Me.

    One recent example, among many:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmaan_Taseer

    Another recent example, among many:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahbaz_Bhatti

    We saw what Islamism/Islamist rule did to Pakistan and Afghanistan. Do people want that? No, I think in general people tend to want “bread, justice, freedom”, probably in that order. Islamism has proved that it cannot be the answer to the problems of these countries. In every case, it has just made the problems worse. In Iran, the mullahs continued some of the better things the Shah had instituted, like mass education and so on and that is good. But we are talking here largely about Sunni Fundamentalism, which is by far the dominant form.

    I wrote that the current rulers of Egypt are unlikely to defy the IMF, but you three wise men are not interested in reading what I write, you are interested only in denunciation.

    And inferring that I derive my ideas from suspect websites is amusing. I do not have to derive my ideas from the web, or from what some cult leader tells me to think. I can think for myself – it is permitted.

    In any case, are the three of you not behaving here a little like members of a cult?

  465. Jemand – Censorship Improves History

    And I know you and others don’t believe in democracy. The problem I have is with people who claim they do, when all they want is democracy when people agree with them and dictatorship when they don’t.

    The people of Egypt have stated what they want in an election. And elections failed, democracy failed. And now it should become clear to them democracy is no way to change a state. But I don’t want them to take up arms against each other to achieve the change.
    A clean bloodless coup is a much better alternative.

    And no, HT, or any other group are not trying to establish an Islamic state here.
    You should try going up to them and asking them instead of taking the word of the ropert murdocks tabloids.
    They are not having secret meetings with british generals to do a coup. They are not hording weapons to do a revelution.
    Any man that thinks they are is a fool.
    They are working for change in certain Muslim countries.
    If you want to translate that in to, “well if they take power in a Muslim country, maybe they will take power in some more, and unify them in to a great big country, that will take over this one and make me grow a beard” as they are working to implement Islam here, that is a stretch of the English language that I would say crosses the line between truth and falsehood.

    I don’t accept what you say about the Islamic state in the past. Some Muslim countries treated non-Muslims very well, others not so well. But when compared to how European countries of that time treated their citizens of other religion, there is no comparison between the best of the European nations with the worst of the Islamic ones.
    There was no Spanish inqusition in the Muslim world, when a nation was taken over by Muslims there was no extermination of the sort the native americans suffered.
    So there is no comparison. We need no lessons from you on how to treat minorities.

  466. SS, how Zionist!

    How racist!

    You talk like someone that responds to a Black man wanting equality by stating, “you see what you lot are like, in some far off country that you have never heard of someone of your skin colour stole my grandmother purse!”

    How can I put this in words even you can understand?

    OK, I will give it a try.
    We are talking about an election in Egpyt being where the winners 70% vs 30% were arrested for the crime of winning the election.
    And you give the example of two Pakis, in Pakistan being killed by other pakis?
    What conection do they have with the Muslim brotherhood?
    That is such a Zionist argument.

    You sound like Karimov, when he boils people alive.
    Isn’t that the argument he uses?
    “but they are evil, look at what they will do when they take power”
    Or the Zionists who always insist whenever they stop killing palistinian babies a new holocoast will happen.

  467. Now, instead of building proper schools for the children of the poor that would produce what those inspired by Islamic thought are capable of achieving, they built so-called madressahs which churned-out suicide bombers.

    Instead of building a resistance movement of thinking people, it spews out clones intent on killing themselves and as many others as they can.

    So-called mujaheddin and Taliban – wholly negative development for Afghanistan and Pakistan.

    Iraq: Islamists of all shades killing civilians, and for what? Religiously pure enclaves. De facto apartheid. And the same people criticise Israel for this?

    Somalia: enough said. Not even a state any more. No justice, no security, no bread.

    Mali: Blood and death.

    Syria: Oceans of blood.

    Libya: Where is Libya, now?

    Saudi Arabia: Ask the call girls of Knightsbridge.

    Bradford: Just look at Bradford. Is this what we want for people of Pakistani origin in Britain? Ghettoisation of body and mind.

    What exactly has Islamism achieved? Name one single invention it has generated. Name one single health or education statistic that has been improved by this cult of Sunni Islamism.

    They dream of a restored Caliphate (what, more call-girls?), and dwell on the glories of the Mediaeval Arab empires, yet at the same time deny the achievements of the rationalists which resulted precisely in this high point of Islamicate civilisation.

  468. This debate is interesting to me for what is not being learnt about other people’s views, rather than what is. I beg the forgiveness of Passerby and Fedup for using a previous conversion as an example; I recall that last year we had a discussion that followed similar dynamics, that time on how to achieve a peace settlement between Israel and Palestine.

    Newer readers following this debate may wish to read it, since there’s a lot of prose but very little elucidation about what some key interlocutors actually wished to say. It starts with my comment here, and after some to-and-fro, I ask some direct questions about good Israeli people/NGOs.

    Reading from there, it is interesting that the responses (such as this) dance in the wind, and absolutely, steadfastly, repeatedly refuse to answer key questions.

    Now, one could retort that my questions were a derailing tactic, a pouring out of treacle to ensnare the hapless. However, it’s unlikely to be deployed here for a left/liberal cause – aren’t most people pro-Palestine here? Am I not myself pro-Palestine? Really, it seems that then – and now – my purpose was to rescue views that I felt had dropped off the end of the left and wrapped around to the hard (religious) right.

    Passerby/Fedup/Cryptonym/Arsalan – I don’t mean to impugn you here, since I believe you write with sincerity even when you’re dodging every question put to you. I hope also that, when I speculate about the psychological processes that are at work (on both sides) it is not taken to be a rudeness. In a sense, it’s rather a defence of your position: you detect (perhaps at a subconscious level) that there is a huge inconsistency in your views, and so you attempt with great vigour to avoid confronting that issue (even to yourselves, perhaps?).

    Arsalan, my primary example would be that you say the Brotherhood won the election. I agree, and you’ll notice I’ve never disputed that. My point (which I made repeatedly) was that the electorate/citizenry changed their mind, and the demonstration is a show of that. My view (which I am willing to change if you cite evidence) is that if there was an election in Egypt tomorrow, the Brotherhood would lose by a long margin.

    (For what it is worth, if there was an election tomorrow and the people voted the Islamists in again, I would respect it. But, that would be hugely inconsistent with the demonstrations – I think the citizens are fed up and want a change of government.)

    So, I think that’s the first thing you need to ask yourself. Now, it might be that you regard elections = good, demonstrations = bad. Well, alright, although you appear to be in favour of the first wave of demonstrations that ousted Mubarak? You could counter than Mubarak’s government was illegitimate (I agree) but how many people need to demonstrate against Morsi for you to concede that new elections would be necessary?

    A third internal inconsistency, which is related, is your view that Egypt should get an Islamic government at any cost. I guess this is speculation on my part, but it is a reflection I hold in good faith. If Egypt were to vote tomorrow, and chose a secular left-wing leader, would you respect the result? Presumably the basis of electoral legitimacy is that, if an uprising leads to a new vote, then the new result overturns the old one?

    A forth thought-inconsistency is that Suhayl and I are firmly on record of opposing neoliberalism, Western propaganda, and all that stuff. I am fully in favour of freedom of religion, and have said so many times. Even in this very thread I refer to Tony Blair as a criminal. But neverthless we are dismissed as Murdoch stooges and fascists, even though Murdoch stooges and fascists would never say the things we do. Another inconsistency for you to think about.

    You are welcome to come back to me of course, though this post is more a philosophical commentary about the debate rather than another attempt to further it.

    ***

    Final point, to all supporters of Islamic governance here. On the links I supplied earlier, one of the interesting things about the discussion is that key contributors favoured arming the Palestinians to the same degree as Israel, but were very coy about this view. Reading between the lines, I think Cryptonym was in favour of moving the whole of Israel to a new location. Now, would it not be better to make those views known with great clarity? It was rather as if the opinion-holder didn’t like their own conclusions, and the same is happening here: rather than elucidate what one’s view is, and discover honest disagreement, there’s a great deal of going around in circles.

    As I say though, the discussion isn’t pointless even if key protagonists don’t come forward as much as they might. Both sides can learn from the behaviour of both sides! Apologies for the amateur philosophising and psychoanalysis – nevertheless I think it offers insight.

  469. A key point I forgot to note on my last post: the discussion from last year is perhaps indicative of a mindset that refuses to accept the possibility of the good Jew. Thus, the newborn Jew cannot be good, the Jewish human rights worker fighting for Palestine cannot be good, the Jewish monitors of the IDF cannot be good, the young Jews refusing to do national service on grounds of conscience, they cannot be good either.

    This is either an interpretation of religious text that has been taken out of context (to such a degree that acknowledging the possibility of the good Jew is an offence towards God?) or the distorting effects of hatred magnified over a long period of time. Either way, another item for introspection.

  470. In Iran, the mullahs continued some of the better things the Shah had instituted, like mass education and so on and that is good. But we are talking here largely about Sunni Fundamentalism, which is by far the dominant form.

    What the fuck are you talking about Shah and his “Education program”? That wanker was far too preoccupied with whoring around with whore masters flown to Tehran from; Paris, London, New York, as per William Shawcross ( the Islamic Fundamentalist!!!!!).

    Today Iran boasts if not a university in almost every town at least a college of further education in every town, and the population of graduates and post graduates are growing exponentially. The attained literacy levels of ninety five percent of the Iranians, the remainder five percent are the older population whom shah educated! In fact shah presided over sum total of fifteen universities, and in a token effort towards education at primary and early high school levels, he orderd the conscription into national service (two years duration) of those with a high-school diploma to be turned out as teachers and sent to villages in an outreach program of education.

    If you don’t like Islam that is your choice, however to take up a liberal position and then sink your fangs in; ” what some cult leader tells me to think”. This kind of reference to an official world religion is the stuff of hysterical denunciations of Islam by the ziofuckwits.

    I can think for myself – it is permitted.

    Perhaps it should be clarified that imagination and thought are two different processes. In the attempt of indictment of the Islamic societies Salmaan Taseer is shot by his own security guard Mumtaz Qadri presumably his own body guard, because supposedly the guard did no agree with Taseer’s opposition to blasphemy laws in Pakistan. This “evidence” is considered to be reflective of the “Islamic Societies” and their intolerance in the face of “free Speech”. (a single individual who could have been affected by many factors; Taseer had Musharraf connections)

    Further the case of Shahbaz Bhatti assassination .[5] Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan claimed responsibility (the Taliban Movement of Pakistan) clearly a Wahhabi affiliated group that in all probability are a creation of ISI (Inter Service Intelligence) of Pakistan.

    However we the “cult members”, cannot see the error of our ways in the lousy examples of intolerance forwarded. Perhaps we the “cult members” ought to be listening and reading Voice of America and Radio Free Europe, clear examples of “solid unbiased” sources of data (I should cocoa in a cultist way).

    In rebuttal of the above examples, it is pointless to troll the net for examples of intolerance and bigotry, because the fora on the net are filled with hate and bile that is being poured on all things Islamic, along with racist murders, and bombings of the mosques, and a constant attack on the rights of the minority Muslims, and Immigrants in UK and the West in general.

    Although the “enlightened liberals” on this board and elsewhere, have little time for others who wish to live their lives based on their moral and traditional imperatives that could include religious elements as decreed by Islam. The Fundamentalist Atheism has spawned the most grotesque attacks on the traditions and sensibilities of others and deems it permissible to dictate to all the only permitted dogma; politics and religion should be kept separate.

    If you wish you keep these separate, go ahead and do so, that is your choice. The only trouble is politics are religion, and religion is politics, regardless of the demarcations that are supposed to exist. The delineation of dogma from dogma is indeed a farcical endeavour.

  471. Thank you all for the conversation so far. Very interesting.
    It seems to me that Arsalan’s arguments are being somewhat misconstrued. Islamic is not at all the same Islamist.

    I think this lady is saying pretty much the same thing as Arsalan?

    http://mycatbirdseat.com/2013/07/40235-freedumb-and-democrazy/

  472. @Xander, thanks. The author of that piece is rejecting US dependence and hegemony, certainly, as I do also. She’s not saying anything particularly new.

    But contributors here I think are embracing a kind of religious blindness that is extremely dogmatic, the psychological processes of which I tentatively explored yesterday.

    @Fedup – the atheist movement has very little in common with the US imperialism and neoliberalism that we both despise. In fact, aggressive capitalism feeds on extreme versions of religion, whether it is the Christian fundamentalism espoused by the violent right in America, or Islamic fundamentalism that you seem to be endorsing. It is capitalism’s inhumanity that causes the desperate and the oppressed to seek out increasingly irrational “solutions” to their woes, and – like mass hysteria – it spreads.

    I see this process at work where even the wealthy and the privileged in the US become religious (religious observance for political expediency aside, of course). Thus, even the comfortable are afflicted by witnessing the inhumanity of the system in which they live, and increasingly they turn to invented spiritual entities to help salve what they see (even if they helped further the inhuman system themselves, paradoxically).

    There is, of course, no such thing as “fundamentalist atheism”. The atheist movement now is, after years daring not speak its own name, is gingerly coming out of the closet. The counter-reaction, from religious oppression that has had an easy time of it throughout The Enlightenment, shows that atheists are doing something right.

    The incongruity remaining for me is that, as I discuss things with religionists here – insofar as it can be called an exchange of views! – is that I may be inadvertently causing you to hang onto your religion all the tighter, which for me is a spectacular own goal. But, that would require secularists to remain silent in the face of fundamentalism, which isn’t an option.

  473. This is either an interpretation of religious text that has been taken out of context (to such a degree that acknowledging the possibility of the good Jew is an offence towards God?) or the distorting effects of hatred magnified over a long period of time. Either way, another item for introspection.

    At the outset let us clarify that:

    1- If there were no “anti-Semites”, the ziofuckwits would have had to invent some, and in fact at times they do so.

    2- Without “hatred” towards the Jews. ziofuckwits will be hard-pressed to justify their existence, further to justify their murderous conduct and their inordinate appetite for land theft.

    3- Without “hatred” towards the Jews. The current apartheid regime in zionistan would not exist.

    Therefore to find the old anti-semi…. charges still prevalent in a post Christianity era, in Europe and elsewhere is a an attempt to resuscitate the almost dead and forgotten hatreds towards the Jews. In fact the absurdity of the claims of hatred towards the Jews dominate any debate concerning the barbaric behaviour of the ziofuckwits, and purely serve as a smoke screen for their crimes: there is no difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism

    This fact can be corroborated by the franchise of ziofuckwits hatred of all things Muslim to the West. This is corroborated in a bizarre episode, Roberta Moor (UK counterpart of Pamela Geller) goes on record, and admits; They think the league [EDL] is exploiting us, while it is really we who initiated the Jewish division. If anything, we are exploiting them.

    Hence to find the “hatred” of Jews so ingrained in every Muslims heart is in fact the stuff of fiction. No need to explain that long before the 1948 imposition of zionistan on Muslims, the Jews and Muslims were living side by side and had no truck with each other. So far as the extreme Wahhabi interpretation goes; massacre and beheading of Shiites in the Northeastern Diyala province. This is proof that the Wahhabi operatives are in fact firm believers in equal opportunity, and they equally hate everyone across the board, other than a handful few who follow the Wahhabi doctrine.

    Therefore to debate about the hatred against the Jews is in fact indulging the ziofuckwits, as we all know that an undesirable individual could belong to any religion, club, group, tribe or gender, and people only react to what they find, and what they see. A considerate, polite and courteous individual will be equally treated with respect and admiration, and an awful aggressive, thief will be treated with utmost contempt and aggression.

    However, given that ziofuckwits have hijacked the Jewish religion, and imperatives thereof, it is up to the Jews to wrest back their religion and traditions from these extremists and voice their opposition to the current wave of mass murder and grand theft lands. If there is a point to be debated is; there is not enough Jews standing up to the ziofuckwits, and their crimes. As we all know silence before tyranny and oppression can be misconstrued as collusion in tyranny and oppression.

    The debate on this thread has spawned many threads, all of which are valid, and pertinent extrapolations. However, given the frustration of those debating these protracted issues it is an expected outcome that emotions will run high and spill over into fights, but all the participants, should take a leaf out of the “old western movies bar fights” (the very old black and white B movies) after a good punch up put the chairs right and pull a table and sit for another round of poker and drinks, before the next punch up.

    Fact is only through discourse and debate can we find common grounds, and further we should all remind ourselves; so long as the opponents are not advocating murder and genocide, land theft, or other deviant propositions, they have every right to their views.

  474. Suhayl Saadi

    17 Jul, 2013 – 8:04 pm

    This is just racist Nonsense, not worthy of a reply.
    If we remove replace your word “Islamist” for the word “Niggers”, nothing will change.
    Because now it has become obvious, that is exactly the word you mean.

    I am surprised you have a problem with your sterotype of horny Arabs coming here to meet prostitutes. In your secular society, wouldn’t Prostitution be legal?

  475. FedUp, you’re quite right to suggest that the current regime extended education. It is one of the good things that regime has done. However, the basis for this extesnion was established by the Shah’s regime. So, while there were terrible things done by the Shah’s regime, as there have been terrible things done by the current regime, there were/have been some beneficent actions too. As I suggested, Iran seems to have been different from other Islamist regimes/movements in that at least to a limited degree the regime there has implemented some redistributive policies. As we both accepted, however, sadly this has not been the case with Sunni Islamist regimes/regimes or movements heavily influenced by them.

    Here is a good thesis on education in Iran:

    http://etd.lib.metu.edu.tr/upload/12612887/index.pdf

  476. Jon
    You have no evidence of the electurate changing their minds.
    What you have evidence of, is the electurate that lost being unable to to tolerate the fact they lost.
    The people who had their man in for 50 years, found someone elses man had one.

    Electurates change their mins in elections.

    I don’t believe you when you say you would support them if they win a second election.
    I’m not sure how a second election can even take place with everyone in prison?

    So yes, you can claim to believe in the Israeli style democracy that the millitry intends for Israel, oh I mean Egypt.

    In Egypt the majority 70% what you call Islamist. The army didn’t, and the up to 30% of the population who were happy under dictatorship didn’t and Israel didn’t.

    You use the example of demonstrations to prove your pioint. where pro Army demonstrations are protected and pro elected government ones are shot at.
    That is like the demonstrations in Palestine aren’t they?

    I’m sure you will aggree with the Israeli style election that will take place. One where all the opposition sit in jail. Similar to how Israel became the only democracy in the middle east by deporting or exterminating 80% of palestinians.

    And I am not in favour of Arming Palestinians just like Israel is armed. I am in favour of a reversing sykes picot.
    It wasn’t the people who live in the middle east who seperated the countries there, just as they weren’t asked about establishing Israel there.
    These countries that were drawn out of the middle east by the british and french have to reunify. That is what the majority of people there want, just as Islamic government is what they want. But you use the example of demonstrations by the few that don’t to say the majority don’t.
    So what I want to end the conflict between the Zionists and the people who were in Palestine before they arrived is, reunification of the middle east back to what it was before the british and french carved it up. And then a quick clean invasion of what you call Israel.
    Don’t worry, Muslims are not Nazis like the Zionists. We will treat them better then they are doing to us.

  477. “What exactly has Islamism achieved? Name one single invention it has generated. Name one single health or education statistic that has been improved by this cult of Sunni Islamism.” Me.

    Syria, Libya, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Mali, Somalia, Nigeria… all now have experienced the fruits of this wondrous political ideology.

    And as for The House of Saud and the call girls of Knightsbridge (and Manama, and Kive, and…), well, Arsalan, if you wish to set yourself as the defender of the social habits and hypocrisies of the House of Saud, please be my guest.

    As for your usual liberally scattered red flag words, they might suggest the semiotic weakness, rather than strength, of the positions you have adopted. It’s a bit like yelling, “Spanish Inquisition!” or “Bogeyman!” or “Mummy!” when you find yourself at an impasse and unable to reconcile the contraditions inherent in your arguments, not to mention the facts which fly in their face.

    Anyway, all best wishes, and good luck with the fish recipes!

  478. Jon

    17 Jul, 2013 – 9:18 pm

    Don’t you dare bring Jew in to it.

    The problem with Israel is that country kills babies, steals land and oppresses people.
    That is why people hate it.
    It has nothing to do with the religion of the baby killing nazis.
    If Satanists, did that it would all be the same.

    Zionists are not even Jews.
    The ones the founded Israel were Atheists. They just used the term Jew as some sort of new racial term because they were all a bunch of racist nazis.

    Real Jews hate Israel. Real ones who believe in the torah and practice their religion believe Zionism is appostisy from Judaism.
    I agree.
    You can’t be a Jew and a zionists at the same time.
    Real Jews would probably help us invade Israel.

    http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

    Who do I accept as a Jew, someone that follows all of the religion.
    Or someone that east bacon while waving an Israeli flag.
    Judaism has nothing to do with Zionism.
    Hatrid of Israel is to do with hating Nazis, because all supporters of Israel are a bunch of baby killing nazis anyway.

  479. Arsalan, not much time to join in at present, but briefly, I don’t think the Egyptian people have been demonstrating for the army. They were fed up of Mubarak’s regime, and they were fed up with Morsi. In other words, they were demonstrating against the hijacking of the revolution, not in order to go back to Mubarak’s lot.

    You have no evidence of the electurate changing their minds.

    Well, I did, and you didn’t convincingly refute it. Again, you want an Islamic government so desperately, you would force it on a people who appear not to want it.

    I don’t believe you when you say you would support them if they win a second election.

    Here’s a serious problem. I think you believe what you say, but that you are misguided. However, you claim not to believe what I say, so there’s no value in you talking to me, surely?

  480. “You can’t be a Jew and a zionists at the same time.” Arsalan.

    I do understand the reasoning, Arsalan and there are some Jews who would agree with you wrt Zionism. I also realise that you are likely originally to be from the Jewish community. But even those Jews who are anti-Zionist mostly would be unlikely to call most Jews (who do agree with some aspects of Zionsim) ‘not-Jews’. It is one thing to say that Zionism is wrong and not part of the religion of Judaism. It is quite another to argue that those who describe themselves as Zionists are not Jews.

    But again, to make such a blatent statement that is untrue… I mean, why do you get to define who is, and who is not, a Jew?

  481. Suhayl Saadi said;

    Syria, Libya, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Mali, Somalia, Nigeria… all now have experienced the fruits of this wondrous political ideology

    Let us examine one of the instances you have mentioned; Somalia.

    This very rich country set in a strategic location, and for the last few decades has been a Petri dish of experiments in a governance of a country without a government. However as the Somalians tried to organise through the Islamic Courts Union, an organically developed system that was addressing the ghastly reign of the terror constituted by the feudal structure that had emerged in the absence of a central government.

    Suddenly the experiment was no longer left to its own devices, and there was a need for an intervention, and the Ethiopian Meles Zenawi the shunned and despised communist. At once Meles Zenawi was deemed an ally, and was called upon as an ally to go and wrest back the control from the Islamic Courts Union. The war intiated by Meles Zenawi has outlasted him, and has continued with the remaining elements of the “al Shabab” (the youth). This giving an excuse for the US to set up a base in Djibouti, across from Yemen, and call it Africom (Africa Command).

    Fact that the experiment had backfired was an obvious outcome, which was eventually put down by the application of force. In fact the Western history seems to be celebrating only the application of force. This is seen in the various anniversaries of the wars that are being celebrated, including the coming four years of remembrance of WWI.

    The fact that any problem is to be solved through application of force, has given rise to the one tool Western politicians whom have only a hammer in their toolbox see the world as a series of nails, that ought to be dealt with a hammer! This is in continuation of the admiration of such a historical thugs as Alexander with his title of the; “the great”. Everyone has heard/read of the Gordian Knot, and Alexander’s solution to the intricate knot created by a very clever/dexterous man; sliced it with his sword.

    What a wonderfully intellectual sort of a chappy? Whom was endowed with great dexterity and intelligence. He sliced off the knot as any monkey would, given the sword and the knot. Although perhaps the monkey may try his teeth first before getting frustrated and using the knife. Alas that is the hero and he is celebrated thus. This is telling of the calibre of heroes and leaders who are evidently to be admired and respected, as recanted by the “history”.

    The same culture that deems application of force as an inherent instrument of achiving the desired outcomes, of course will not allow any deviation from the set and mandated parameters of conduct and thought. As we type the NSA, GCHQ and a plethora of other organisations that are set to snoop on us all; are monitoring what we are writing and what we are thinking. Believe me none are Islamic organisations either!

    Hence these measures of control are telling of the dangers of the virus of “free thought” that is a virulent and unwelcome phenomena that ought to be combated at times and by all means. However the levels of sophistication achieved by these operatives, who are engaged in their control of the masses minds, through recourse to various plausible rationale. Hence it behoves us all to use care before we resort to bandy the “freedom” prefix, and to deliver vitriol on the perceived enemy is an elegant consequence of such a comprehensive control measures.

    Finally given the Give war a chance brigade, it is perhaps time for humanity to start transcending the simplistic and infantile recourse to application of force. Further it is time to start to consider the consequences of cultural and collateral vandalism, that war is the cause of. This of course means that; Syria, Libya, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Mali, Somalia have all been attacked and destroyed without the help of any Islmaists. Thus attributing the current problems the beleaguered populations of these countries are facing to Islamists, is a cop out, and a wilful omission of facts.

  482. Yes, all that may well be true, Passerby. Thank you for engaging. Yet still, the problem remains. There has been not one single successful example of an Islamist regime or movement producing a worthwhile society for its people or even one single invention of use to humanity. Is anyone here denying the strategic goals of the USA/UK/NATO et al? Yet here, on this part of the thread, I am focusing my critique largely on the chimera of Islamism, its inability to deal with reality and its consistent failure to provide, or engender, solutions.

  483. “This of course means that; Syria, Libya, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Mali, Somalia have all been attacked and destroyed without the help of any Islmaists.” Passerby.

    I don;t agree with that. I see the Islamists everywhere. These countries have been destroyed very much with the help of the Islamists.

  484. I mean, to suggest otherwise is to be in utter denial, surely.

  485. “And then a quick clean invasion of what you call Israel.” Arsalan.

    You sound like Donald Rumsfeld, on the “cakewalk” invasion of Iraq.

    Well, Passerby, you may have to accept that at least one Islamist is ready and willing to cut the knot, the Gordion Knot.

  486. “Don’t worry, Muslims are not Nazis like the Zionists. We will treat them better then they are doing to us.” Arsalan.

    Sorry to burst your balloon, Arsalan. But recent history does not bear out this claim.

    The Armenian Genocide was committed by Muslims against Christians. Muslims slaughtered one another, Shia against Sunni, in a variety of places. Think of Iraq, Syria (yes, let us pluck one another’s hearts, beating and raw, and chew the sinews), Afghanistan, Pakistan. Let us think of what happened in Afghanistan after the fall of Najibullah. Groups of Islamists fought one another and destroyed the city of Kabul in the process. Then groups of Islamists fought each other again (Taliban versus ‘Mujaheddin’). And now, groups of Islmaists are fihgting one another (Afghan Govt versus Taliban). Most Christians have fled the Middle East (except in Lebanon and Morocco). There is a good reason why. And how did regimes in the Middle East – and the mullahs – treat the Jews of those countries during the 1940s-50s? Did any Islamists – did Sayyid Qutb or Maududi or any of them – stand up and stand, “Stop!”? Did any of them try to protect their Jewish neighbours?

    I’m sorry, Mr Goldberg, but you are calling on Wendy and Peter Pan to restore the Kingdom of Narnia and then for Gandalf to descend upon the world and wave his white beard at everyone. It really is a hiding to nothing.

  487. SS
    Well compared to the alternative, which is happening now. Kids armed with stones facing the full weight of the Israeli army.
    Yes it will be a cake walk.

  488. And even if we don’t win the first invasion attempt. We only need to win one of the next attempts.

  489. Suhayl Saadi

    18 Jul, 2013 – 6:03 pm

    I translate this as:
    What have the Niggers ever produced that is worth while. All Hail the great white race!

    There are almost two billion Muslims in the world. They invent many things.
    Since the end of the Othmaniya khilafah you would attribute the inventions they make to whatever society you desire.
    After the Khilafah is established, you will find some excuse not to say it was to do with the khilafah state.
    Just as you say who you call Islamist winning the election is not democracy, and the coup that removed them is.
    :)

  490. Lies again?
    LOL
    The armian genocide was done mainly by the young turks. Secularists. Your people arent they?
    Even so, unlike the genocide Israel does, and the Americans do in Iraq and Afghanistan. The turks did prosecute about 500 officers for it.
    How many soldiers did Israel prosecute for all the babies they killed?
    lol
    I think you take your history straight from the BNP.
    And what happened before the young turks gained full control of the army was due to a total war between the armians and the Kurdish tribes men they fought.
    You selective amnesia might choose to forget that the armians started it, and tried to wipe out the kurds.
    the kurds fought back, which means they are evil islamist terrorists.
    LOL
    You hypocrit.

    And when it comes to a lot of the other things you mentioned. As for much of the rest you talk about, what happened was the result of the caoos that came with a Kaffir invasion.

    You Blame Islam and Islamists for actions that happen in wars in the muslim world.
    But do you blame your secularism for wars in the rest of the world?

    You are as hypocritical as a Zionist.

  491. Time for a fish supper, methinks!

  492. … while we nestle down into a comfortable apologetics. Now we see denial of the Armenian Genocide.

  493. “There are almost two billion Muslims in the world. They invent many things.” Arsalan.

    I’m sure they do. Sadly, they do this mostly in secular, non-Muslim societies. But if you remember, I challenged you to name one single invention that Islamists had produced. Apart, that is, from suicide bombing.

  494. “I translate this as:
    What have the Niggers ever produced that is worth while. All Hail the great white race!” Arsalan.

    On the contrary.

    http://inventors.about.com/od/blackinventors/a/Black_History.htm

    And that’s just African-Amercians, doesn’t include Africans. Now, can you produce a similar list for ‘Islamist Inventors’?

  495. Well, a very Zionist way to phraise the question :)
    (As mentioned before, you really mean, what have the lesser races produced)

    If we call Islamist people that rule by Islam, every invention that was done in Muslim Scoieties between the advent of Islam to when Muslim countries were colonised.

    Go read a book on Muslim inventions. :)
    Or any book on chemistry and notice all the Arabic words, maths books are fill of Arabic words too.

    I am sure you play with extensiveness and exclusiveness in a way that exclude all Muslim engineers from Islamists and include any Muslim that has ever commited a crime, or what you call a crime.
    :) so you to your racism, and me to my Islam.

  496. “If we call Islamist people that rule by Islam, every invention that was done in Muslim Scoieties between the advent of Islam to when Muslim countries were colonised.” Arsalan.

    Ah! Well, I don’t call those people, ‘Islamist’. I do not equate Muslim with Islamist; the terms are not synonymous. All Islamists (sadly) are Muslim, but by no means all Muslims are Islamist.

    Furthermore, those inventions occurred during the Middle Ages when rationalism – Ibn Rush’s and others’ in the falsafa schools, i.e. schools of philosophy – flourished in Muslim societies.

    And how many inventions – name even one – have there been in Islamist societies? How many in C20th? C21st? Name just one. Can you…?

  497. Anyway, your parallel is silly – an attempt at closing down criticism by screaming, “Mother!”. ‘Islamism’ is not a ‘race’, not an ethnicity. It is something you can adopt and relinquish, like Communism, or Fascism or Scientology. You did (adopt it). And you can relinquish it.

    Islamophobia is real – hatred of Muslims is real and arguably that is racist. But critiquing Islamism might be a sign that one actually loves Islam and loves Muslims and hates what Islamism is doing to it, and to them.

  498. I see the Islamists everywhere.

    Is that not seeing Reds under the bed kind of a problem that may taint your judgement?

    It is one of the good things that regime has done.

    There you go! Do you really believe that a vociferous and unyielding Iranian public used to kicking their “betters” around and out of office, would put up with their current leadership if they were not happy with the said leadership? Iranians wanted an Islamic Republic and despite the best efforts of Shah to prevent it, they managed to revolt and kick the Shah out hold a referendum and and they cast their ballots in that nation wide referendum for an Islamic Republic. Further, it is not just the Iranian leadership that has achieved the current literacy levels of ninety five percent. The Iranians have been working their nuts/butts/pudenda off to get educated, and to work to achieve the levels of self sufficiency they have reached, despite the three decades of sanctions against Iran and Iranians.

    However, without yet again pointing out that your jaundiced view of political Islam is affecting your judgement. This reluctance to accept the tainted judgement too is understandable; as an author, with a “weird”* name you need perhaps to make sure that you are doubly clear in your opposition to political Islam. Moreover your levels of aggression toward the “Islamists”, despite the repeatedly pointed fact that political Islam is not a uniform and homogeneous philosophy. However your references to “Islamists” steadily are becoming shrill, and going so far as the wanker Robert Kilroy-Silk diatribe. This perhaps ought to be toned down for the benefit of moving forward with the debate.

    I can understand your reluctance to accept; there could actually exist societies that are more happy to live under the Islamic constitution, in a Islamic Republic. However, you should be aware of this factor that this probability exists, and ensure that your research/debate is not the kind of Dershowitzery in search of re-affirming your prejudices.

    With the above in mind, could you find a positive aspect in the Political Islam from a third party point of view ? So that you have not incriminated yourself in any way, in case Anthony Glees and co are keeping a tally of what you have been getting up to in your spare time.

    * No disrespect is intended, the term is denote that because you are not Jones/Brown/Green then by all means a potential Islamist terrorist that could be hunted, and entrapped and imprisoned. Given the appalling abuses of the minorities rights in UK at present time.

    ======

    … aggressive capitalism feeds on extreme versions of religion, whether it is the Christian fundamentalism espoused by the violent right in America, or Islamic fundamentalism that you seem to be endorsing.

    Despite my support for political Islam, I am beyond any theisms and find the A theism a fucking teenage angst that has afflicted the undeveloped A theists. This angst in its immaturity finds it necessary to confront the religious people without taking into account the needs of them for the order and belonging that religion could perhaps afford these people in a world of uncertainties. The fact that A theists somehow always wind up proselytising as good as their nemesis the religious people never dawns on them.

    In short, no need to believe in any creator, or any excuse to do good, and be true, living life without; fraud, theft, lies, adulatory, etc. Note I did not included the killing, because I view all human beings to hate and abhor killing the next human being, and any living being. That is other than psychopaths, and deranged fucking lunatics, who will do so regardless, and by resorting to varying excuses for their abhorrent deeds and actions. This effectively strips their personal responsibility and role in murder through a convoluted rationalisation process, making black to be white, and up to become down!

    Based on the above, my support for political Islam is a wish to afford the underdeveloped world an avenue of progress. The fact is these societies need to build up an escape velocity from their current fast; food, culture, politics dependency, remaining consumers of the Western products and services. Only through independence these societies can move forward and raise the fucking bar for general levels of justice, and respect for the inalienable rights of each one of us as human beings.

    The irony of ironies is that A theists, fighting the religious dogmatically without ever realising this. Further the lack of respect shown by these A theists towards the sensibilities, imperatives of those whom believe in a religion and observance thereof. This is indicative of an of immature and undeveloped individual who lacks the understanding; there are many paths to truth, and no one has the copyright/patent on getting there! The first step in building any kind of a relationship is respect, and acceptance of the sensibilities and imperatives of the next pilgrim along.

    Finally although Christianity has yielded extreme forms of capitalism, Islam has a much more nuanced approach towards distribution of wealth within the society and puts more emphasis on the individual responsibilities of those lucky enough to be better off. Although this latter point is not exactly practised considering the excesses of the sheiks and their life style that Suhayl is always reeling about.

    =====

    then a quick clean invasion of what you call Israel

    Are you crazy? If the current “Islam-ist” regimes (those purporting to be observing the tenets of Islam),such as Saudi in particular, that finds invading and killing poor Yemeni revolting against the corrupt and ineffective Saleh types. Or support the murderous Al Khalifa by sending the Saudi army to beat down, kill, and suppress, the revolution in Bahrain. On the other hand the same bunch of ruling pederasts supplying money and arms for any murdering thug in Syria, and Iraq to run amok and terrorise the population of these countries. Or order the religious hierarchy in Saudi to issue a fatwa and forbid any Saudi from praying for the success of the Hezbollah fighters in the thirty three day war of the ziofuckwits on Lebanon. All the while Saudi’s own territories being under the occupation of zinoistan; Tiran and Sanafir Islands, that have been under occupation since 1967.

    If Muslims in various countries manage to constitute an equitable, fair, and safe country, the fall of zionistan would soon follow thereafter. This without firing a single shot. Just take a note of the imploding project that is turning ziofuckwits on their own kind. Their racism and aggression knows no bounds. In fact the astonishing facts about existence of neo nazi groups in zionistan are pretty well hushed up.

    The apartheid regime in zionistan is imploding, and this implosion will be even more rapid, if only the Muslims were to rid themselves from the current batch of Western charge hands set to their leadership positions. Just listen to McCain and find out how worried he is, at the prospect of such an eventuality.

  499. More densely packed, decorative prose, Fedup, that (again) means close to nothing at all. It also misunderstands atheism to a great degree (what is meant by “a theism”, with the word space?). I should state (again) that, in the same way as calling someone a liar, it isn’t helpful to attribute immaturity to someone in a debate. You’re welcome to explain I don’t understand something, and to set out in a clear way what you believe that is, of course – as I did for you.

    Islam has a much more nuanced approach towards distribution of wealth within the society

    I agree. I like its opposition to usury, though I would be worried to live under any absolutist faith-based governance (what recourse do I have if religious observance X becomes mandatory, and democracy has been torn down?). No state should be religious, since a religious state will always have a preference for people who practice the state religion.

    In short, no need to believe in any creator, or any excuse to do good, and be true, living life without; fraud, theft, lies, adulatory

    Ah, life without religion is evil, eh? A common mistake about atheism – you should look up humanism. In any case, atheism is about confronting religion’s power over secular life, not eradicating religion.

    Only through independence these societies can move forward and raise the fucking bar for general levels of justice

    That’s the problem, though, isn’t it? It isn’t clear at all that Islamic governance will always raise the bar for justice, and in some cases, it hugely lowers it, as Suhayl points out.

    In fact the absurdity of the claims of hatred towards the Jews

    Ah, right: anti-Jewish racism doesn’t exist. Nonsense, I am afraid. Is your refusal to be drawn on the “good Jew” (who is fighting for Palestinian justice) a result of your believing that all Jews are bad by definition? If so, this is an End Times kind of narrative, where Good and Evil people can be easily identified – it is desperate stuff, utterly without basis, and demonstrates excellently why religion can be a dangerous thing. It creates and feeds on hatred and tribalism, and I think you have succumbed to it.

    Anyway, I set out some interesting points on the psychology of “not seeing” the contradictions in ones own perspective, and how self-analysis might help guard against this. Do have a read, and come back to me on it if you wish.

  500. That is what I meant by you defining the word Islamist the way you want.
    I have already told you I don’t even recognise the word.
    What I do recognise If Khilafah itself, a state where the laws are based on Islam.
    And what I list is that, it is Khilafah. The Rashidun, Umayad, Abisid, later ottoman rulers were Khalifs.
    That is the system I want to see emulated.
    And I think you know it and you are just playing with words.
    You ask me to defend states, I seek to overthrow. If the Brotherhood had won, it wouldn’t have made a difference to me, because they did not seek to rule by Khilafah.

    My critisium on you was not a defense of the brotherhood, the Iranians regime or even the taliban. It was just an attack on your hypocrisy, and your lies.
    Your pretence at believing in democracy when you clearly dont. Also your sense of your own superiority. What you believe in is the will of the people if only they shared your will.
    You are a white supremicist with a brown skin. What a African American would call a House Nigger, what the Indians call a chumcher or a koli, What native americans call a tom-a-hawk and many other nations have other names for your attittude of self superiority.

    People in the Muslim world are Islamist, if you define it as anything other than secularism.
    The dictators are like you, they look down on Islam, and their own people for believing in it. They see themselves as superior because of their westernisation so allow their people to starve.
    You asked what good Islamist have done. Even thought I don’t believe how the Brotherhood wants to rule is very Islamic(Not khilafah), they feed the people while the secularist rulers feed themselves.

    But to be honest with you. The reason why Muslims believe in Islamic government, is a spiritual reason and not the worldly reasons you would prefer.
    True Muslims want to live by all of Islam.
    While hypocrits, pick off the bits they like and say the rest is politics.
    You may have decided that religion should not have anything to do with state.
    But when any true Muslim reads the quran, when he gets to the bit that says chop the hand of the theif, he doesnt say, “Well that is to do with the state, we must ignore this rule”. A true Muslim wants to see that implemented, in the same way he implements the bits of prayer, fasting and zakat. But even when it comes to things that are to do with the individual, you and not the state. There are still bits you don’t like? Such as the verse of Hijab. And before you say you have your own strange interpretation of it, true Muslims implement it in the way the Prophet pbh interpreted it.

    So we will implement Islam, you will implement what you want to.

  501. You are a white supremicist with a brown skin. What a African American would call a House Nigger

    Calling someone a betrayal of their colour is, in my view, as offensive as racism itself, Arsalan. You should be greatly ashamed of such a corrosive view. Are you not able to argue with decency towards people who hold honest disagreement?

  502. Ah, life without religion is evil, eh?

    Do you deliberately wish to misconstrue, what I have written?

    You assume I am religious!

    This is the dialogue of the deaf, the mute, and the blind. Each setting out their stall and refusing to see the others point of view.

    what recourse do I have if religious observance X becomes mandatory, and democracy has been torn down?

    The working Islamic Republic in Iran so far has not torn the democratic checks and balances. there is no forced conversions of Christians and Jews into Islam.

    Fact that Western democracies are based on Christian tenets seems to be escaping your attention.

    demonstrates excellently why religion can be a dangerous thing. It creates and feeds on hatred and tribalism, and I think you have succumbed to it.

    ROFL you really made my day with this last bit!!!!!

    It is a hoot, although I hope not in an offensive way. How can I succumb when I have no religious affiliations? Trouble is I actually took the time to study the three major religions; Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and then decided I need none to help me to live my life.

    A theism is what it says A theism:

    theism = the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation.

    “A” an instance of the above with a differing dogma, and set of imperatives;demonstrates excellently why religion can be a dangerous thing effectively replacing one kind of dogma with another. Hence A theism. You are off hand rejecting the first ever set of rules and laws that made probable the existence of human societies. Without the laws governing marriage, heredity, and conduct, we human beings were still in the fucking caves mate.

    A mature view would be; although I have no belief in any kind of a religion, I respect those who believe in a religion, and I do not intend to fight them because of my fears and prejudices. You are mistakenly equating anti-relegion with enlightenment.

  503. Fact that Western democracies are based on Christian tenets seems to be escaping your attention.

    Simply not true. Western democracies are based on capitalism and hypocrisy.

    Do you deliberately wish to misconstrue, what I have written?

    No, I don’t.

    We’re not getting anywhere, again. Fedup, my views are held openly and honestly. I think I have answered all your questions, but you have nothing but treacle for me to wade through, still. I take the debate seriously, and you find it hilarious. I am polite to you, and you swear back. I ask you questions, and you ignore them.

    And so it goes, on and on. You then have the audacity to suggest it is me that is offering a “dialogue of the deaf, the mute, and the blind”. I think readers studying the record above, and the one I linked to, will see a different picture.

  504. Hang on capitalism came later. First there was the religious rule that governed Europe as a whole. However the awful heredity laws gave rise to the filthy rich and abject poor and then there came the push to define property and the laws concerning property, which strangely are based on Christian tenets.

    You are skipping the early years. The evolution of the old system has brought about the present system.

    I did not swear and laugh at you, I laughed at your assumption; believing I am religious! Swearing is my style.

    What have I ignored that has annoyed/upset you so much?

  505. There should be a diversity of “governance” systems, in a best of breed (craps this is a supremacist expression) competition. Ever since the demise of Communism the unashamed fascist have gone to their ends, because there is no competing ideology for the plebeians to get attracted to.

    The fascists like the current status quo just fine, a mono idea world of shit. However, this is not for the benefit of we the punters as it is becoming more and more obvious by the day. Can you see why I advocate the existence of differing schools of thought and governance? Or is it still not clear for you?

  506. Jon

    18 Jul, 2013 – 10:34 pm

    Don’t play that Zionist game of twisting my words to suit your arguments.

    You know full well why I called him a white supremacist, and I have told him many times why I have said that.

    He was called that because of the same reason I have called you that.
    The arguments both of you have used is white supremicist arguments.
    Both of you have used the words islamicist the way others use the word Nigger.
    So it doesn’t take long before the truth becomes visible.

    I never once accused him of betraying his own colour. That is something you made up, and you accused me of saying because you are a liar.
    If you are not a liar, quote the post where I accuse him of betraying his own colour.
    If a white man said what he said, and many in the BNP, and NF have said exactly what he said. Everyone would call that white man a racist and a white supremicist.
    So it would be racist of me not to call him a white supremicist.
    I don’t even know what calour you are jon, but I call you one too don’t I?
    Is that racist too?
    If you want to know why I call you that, scrole up and the reason is given in the posts where I do.

    All both of you said is about forcing lesser races to obey the ways of the white man.
    Don’t pretend it isn’t.

  507. native americans call a tom-a-hawk

    A slight detour;

    I always assumed tom-a-hawk denotes an axe made out of a slate/metal blade tied/strapped to a wooden handle by leather/sinew strips. Can you please clarify the roots of your interpretation of the term?

  508. Fedup and John

    I believe Christians should rule by Christianity.
    The fact they don’t leads me to believe on the whole they don’t believe in their scripture.
    But some laws are realted to their beliefs. But since capitalism these laws have become fewer and fewer.
    Thinngs that are still related to belief is the fact that incest is still illigal.
    It isn’t illigal for any form of capitalist reason. There is no money to be made keeping it illigal.
    It is illigal due to Christian beliefs.

    But I can see how it is hard for White Christians to rule by Christianity.
    They don’t even implement it on their own lives.
    And have found excuses to ignore each and every law Jesus lived by.
    They don’t pray the way Jesus prayed, they don’t fast the way jesus fasted, the men don’t keep beards the way jesus did, the women don’t cover their hair the way his mother did, they eat what was forbiden to Jesus, they forbid themselves from marrying more then one when jesus never forbade it etc.

    If people believe in a religion, they shouldn’t shy away from living by it, whether individually or as a whole.

  509. fedup

    Yes that is exactly what it is.
    But when you space it out. It becomes Tom as in uncle tom. A hawk is added after, to indicate, the native bit.
    A native American told me they use that word for natives that look down on other natives and up to white culture.

  510. A native American told me they use that word for natives that look down on other natives and up to white culture.

    This is really exciting (I know little things, please little minds etc.), there can be a link/pollination to the Uncle Tom that is the usual derisory term for blacks being deferential to their “white master”. Native Americans using Tom and then contextualising it with a soaring Hawk to clarify the look down on the origins of the Hawk that is the subject of derision.

    I know this a quick fire analysis with little corroboration, and evidence to rely on. Alas I don’t know many Native Americans let us hope some will come forward to accept or reject the postulation forwarded.

    The fact they don’t leads me to believe on the whole they don’t believe in their scripture.

    Don’t be uncharitable. Christians in the last 2000 years have seen many aspects of Christianity to undergo changes. The present day Christian beliefs due to the elapsed time does not find emulating Jesus as part of their rites. This somehow does not detract from their intention to be good and remain true.

    The concept of ownership is in fact a late arrived at thought, Adam Smith sets out the principles of ownership and defines it, which clearly is indicative of efforts in demarcation of chattel and property and establishing relationship/link to the owners of the said property and chattel, was arrived at pretty late in the history.

    So far as incest goes, it is a destructive interaction that leads to amplification of the genetics defect and is ruinous to the health of the off spring resultant of such a interaction. Capitalists who were too busy changing the master slave relationships and the obligations thereof, could not afford the mass of disabled workers/self motivated slaves. Thus the laws against incest.

    Islam being the youngest religion, has a far more comprehensive approach to the lives of its followers, hence the influence of Islam on the daily lives of the Muslims. This fact always escapes the attention of those whom are not familiar with Islam.

  511. Interesting. You see, one scratches the shell’s surface… and the worm emerges from the egg. It is best that people here see this reality in its full flood and then imagine – have no illusions about – what kind of society would be generated by this reality. And then imagine, just for a moment, what people in Muslim societies are up against.

  512. And in spite the very interesting discourses and dense prose in the stream above (and thanks, Jon, for continuing to engage), there still has been no response to my very simple question. Any inventions by Islamist societies? Even one…? I think this is important because if one is claiming to be advancing human betterment, it is necessary to provide evidence. Is there any?

  513. “… the men don’t keep beards the way jesus did, the women don’t cover their hair the way his mother did…” Arsalan [wrt Christians]

    In this world-view (to which they are fully entitled, but one does not have to agree with it), infant mortality and female literacy rates, for example, are of no consequence, just the presence or absence of beards and veils.

    Even on its own level, it’s just absurd. I’m sure there are photographs of Jesus and Mary, somewhere… let me search in the attic.

  514. Any inventions by Islamist societies?

    The insistence on the label “Islamist” is somewhat confusing. This the curmudgeon may misconstrue as mendacious, given the “stream of prose” on this particular thread.

    If Islamic political systems are being questioned; Iran has had many inventions, the latest of which include nano technology products for water filtration! This invention is a spinoff of their civil nuclear technology; to filter any water input or output into the nuclear plants, as well as any contaminated sources of water, ie any old pond can be treated with this product to obtain filtered water, that can be potable with the addition of chlorine for belts and braces approach.

    Further, Iranians have invented/discovered among other drugs a solution that heals diabetic ulcers on the lower limbs of the diabetes sufferers; preventing the amputation of the affected limbs.

    This kind of genital swinging perhaps is not the best method of assessing any systems effectiveness. Although there is a room for such a metrics, but to table such a question in the manner that it has been repeated, overlooks the simple fact that inventions are in need of patents, to officially protect the rights of the inventor.

    This excludes the ingenious solutions to various problems faced by innovative individuals in their daily lives, simply because the solutions applied are not patented. Further, the latent content of the question can be a source of confusion; what is intended to adduce from such a line of questioning? Is it to prove that:
    Islamic Political Systems are lax on education of their people?
    Islamic political systems stifle innovation and progress?

    This kind of divisive questions are not very helpful, and need to be more concisely constructed and the forwarded.

  515. I’m very pleased that Iranians are inventing helpful things for humanity. Here is another piece on this subject:

    http://www.wipo.int/wipo_magazine/en/2005/03/article_0004.html

    The question that arises, though, is this. Does the fact that people in Iran continue to invent things, make great films, write good books and so on, have anything to do with the Islamism in the political system in which they happen to dwell at the presnt time? Or were they doing these things anyway? In other words, is it the Islamism swithin the political system that has resulted in these benficent outcomes, or is it that the resourcefulness and creativity of the people continues to manifest in spite of the Islmaism that defines the system. Or, posibly, is that the progressive elements within specifically, Iranian Islamism have helped to nuture such positive talents?

    Iran also won more medals at last year’s Olympics than any other Muslim country, except possibly Kazakhstan (ex-USSR), a fact unreported in the Western media and one to which I mentioned on this blog.

    I think we already agreed that Iran is a complex case, politically, with some inherent socialist elements, and differs enormously from the contemporary manifestation of Sunni Islamism that is prevalent everywhere else. I find it interesting that the proponenets of that Sunni Islamism repeatedly have to refer to Iran in order to find anything positive. But perhaps we should ask Arsalan what he thinks of Iran?

  516. the resourcefulness and creativity of the people continues to manifest in spite of the Islmaism that defines the system. Or, posibly, is that the progressive elements within specifically, Iranian Islamism have helped to nuture such positive talents?

    Certainly from the article that you kindly provided the link for, the young Iranian inventors were aged between seventeen and twenty seven, and included the both of the genders. Therefore we can safely conclude that these individuals were educated in the Islamic Republic and have known no other system. Their nurture and fruition to the productive and solution solving individuals has been a personal and communal process, both aiming to progress for the cause of humanity.

    I am hesitant to join in sectarian discourses, because these detract from the substance of the debate. However I fullheartedly agree with you that Iranian model has proved to be a successful revolution, and those aspiring to constitute an Islamic Political System will do well to study Iranian system and take good note of it.

    The socialist component of the Iranian Islamic system most certainly is under a constant stream of attacks from without Iran, that is aided and abetted by the elements within that country. This too ought to be fully taken on board for without the socialist/egalitarian component any constituted system would lose its Islamic essence, and would emulate the Vaticanesque (no disrespect to Catholic sensibilities intended, referring to Borgia et al)system that became unstuck.

    Finally I am looking forward too, to read the response to your last question.

  517. Thanks, Passerby. Much appreciated.

  518. Wel, Arsalan, Passerby is keen to know your thoughts on Iran. Give us your thoughts!

  519. Jon,

    Are we mates and good to go, or are you going to stay sulky and moody? (stated with in a conciliatory tone, so don’t take it the wrong way)

    The assumption that I am religious could have had a bearing on reading what I have forwarded, don’t you think?

    ===
    Suhayl,

    You have dodged the question: could you find a positive aspect in the Political Islam from a third party point of view ?

  520. “… from a third party point of view ?” Passerby.

    I haven’t dodged the question, I just missed it, sorry. What do you mean by “a third party”? Do you mean a political party, or a 3rd person in a discourse/situation?

    I mean, if anything, if there is to be a ‘political Islam’, I’d have liked to have seen a sort of liberation theology type of movement. There are elements within the religion which definitely point towards that, egalitarianism and so on, but unfortunately, politically, it’s not happened. Some people had high hopes of Iran during the early years or the Revolution, but most were disappointed.

  521. Fedup, are you the same person who posts under, ‘Passerby’? Or are you two different people? It’s just a little confusing sometimes. ‘Fedup’ and ‘Passerby’ seem to possess very similar voices. ‘Cryponym’ is another which I find quite similar.

    If you’re three people, then fine. But if you’re all one person, you know, might it not be better just to stick to one handle? Forgive the speculation.

  522. Forgive the speculation.

    Palm of the left hand on head (hoping you don’t use hair gel stuff) with a deep reassuring voice; you are forgiven child!

    Could the similarities arise because the three of us have similar outlooks ?

    a 3rd person in a discourse/situation

  523. I think that many people are inspired by faith to do many good things. There also are positive aspects of many faiths that can, and do, form the bases of a yearning for social justice and so on. I think of the man, Abdul Sattar Edhi who runs those ambulances and other healthcare facilities in Pakistan, for example. That, to me, is Islam and it is political.

    And if that is what you mean, Fedup, then yes, I think there is a role for what might be termed ‘a political Islam’. It would have to be very different, though, from the kinds of organised political Islam we have seen so far.

  524. yes, I think there is a role for what might be termed ‘a political Islam’. It would have to be very different, though, from the kinds of organised political Islam we have seen so far.

    Bloody hell Suhayl, we are in agreement! The lamb and the lion hanging around cool drinking Pina Colada etc. Best not get too far with this sort of stuff!!

    Silliness aside, without a delineation of Political Islam from the “Islam-ism” there can be no progress. The use of the pejorative term of “Islam-ism” is used as a catch all to describe the little preacher bent on keeping his folk and his income safe from the clutches of the poachers foreign and domestic. As well as the highly articulate educated individuals whom follow Islam and intend to synthesise a modern and viable system of governance.

    This is a first step, towards a better debate hopefully.

    I join you to table the question;perhaps we should ask Arsalan what he thinks of Iran? (not in an inquisitorial fashion)

  525. “Silliness aside, without a delineation of Political Islam from the “Islam-ism” there can be no progress.” Fedup.

    Yes, I agree, Fedup.

  526. Let’s not kid ourselves here. Whatever achievements Iranians have enjoyed in the arts, science, industry and sports, have no divine origin whatsoever. Religious fervour might have inspired some greater effort, but so what? Replace Islam with Christianity, American pride or obsessive personal zeal and you get the same excited motivation that leads to success.

    Apologists of Islam will frequently cite historical instances of personal achievements of muslims as if those achievements could only have occurred under the auspices of Islam. Bullshit. 

    Did Muslims, Christians or Jews invent copper smelting? Bronze? Iron or steel? No.

    Defenders of religion will also falsely claim that civilisation and its moral roots exist only because of belief in an Abrahamic God. Again, bullshit. European pagans were already advanced and civilised (as much as anybody could be at that time) before Judaism was invented. Anyone ever heard of the Greeks? And later on, the Romans?

    Did any of these religions inspire civilisation in the Far East? No.

    It’s lamentable that Jews, Christians and Muslims want to destroy, hide or rewrite history to erase their respective absences, deficiencies, failures and crimes. We see the most recent examples of this behaviour in places like Afghanistan where they destroy ancient Buddhist statues. And in place of historical or scientific truth, we are told legends, myths and fairytales. Propaganda, I think it’s called.

    Bronze flag, c. 3000 BCE -
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bronze_flag,_Shadad_Kerman,_Iran.JPG

  527. Suhayl Saadi

    19 Jul, 2013 – 8:11 am

    They are up against people who see them as lesser humans. Fit only to be commanded by superior races.
    These are either colonialists who conquar them or people with brown skins.

    When Muslims rule themselves, they rule in ways you don’t like.
    “You” is the key word here, YOU.
    So you rule yourself the way you in scotland would like, and be happy with them ruling themselves where they are. Even if it isn’t by the secularism you know and love.

    When it comes to the inventiveness of Islamic societies. Well If they want to live the way they do, with inventions or without. That is up to them. You sound like the white faced Christians that exterminated the red man to bring inventiveness to America. Or the white faced Christians who carried off the black man, for the same reason.
    Muslims like the way they live. And they don;t like the way you love.
    Get over it!

    Suhayl Saadi

    19 Jul, 2013 – 9:46 am

    Again, we follow what we believe in, you follow what you believe in.
    We know what JEsus the son of marry and his mother wore, because of the laws they followed. These laws are still there in the scripture. White Christians choose to ignore these laws. We and many Black and Brown Christians as well as Religious Jews still follow it.
    Here in this country it is up to you whether you follow the Laws of the Quran, the bible and the Torah(All of whome agree on this issue). But you are a hyporite for and dishonest for bringing up female literacy and infant mortality. It is your secularists that ban girls from getting an education in school for putting a cloth on their heads. Not just in Racist nations like France, Belgium and Russia. It also happens in secualrist Countries like Turkey, Azerbigan and even countries you might regard as Islamist have schools that ban Hijab including Saudi Arabi, and Karzia Afghanistan.
    So blame yourself and people like you who see themselves as superia to the rest of the people because you have exchanged the verses of the Quran that you disagree with with the values of the Superia white race.
    And this samething applies to infant mortality. Pregnant women have died because they were denied entry in to Hospitals in Bin Alis Tunisa. Even when they are willing to comprimise their religion to save life, women still die, when they find that they are still refused entry even after removing their hijab because their ID card was rejected because they happened to be scarved in it. And this is the laws with the excuse of your secularism. So you blame Islamism for these evils, I blame you, people like you and the seculerism you seek to promote.

    You blame Islam-Ism. I blame your own racism for you even using the term Islam-ism in the way you do. You use it as others use the word Nigger.

  528. Suhayl Saadi

    19 Jul, 2013 – 1:00 pm

    And

    Passerby

    19 Jul, 2013 – 11:23 am

    That is why I kept ignoring SS when he said “What have Islam-ist invented”.

    It wasn’t a true question. What ever you say, that would be, well they did it not because of their islam but inspite of.

    I saw through it. It wasn’t a question. It was a statement. A racist statement against lesser races.

    The same can be applied to other accusations he has made against what he calls Islam-ist.
    was it Islam that caused that, or poverity, wars, sanctions and other things.

    White supremicist make the same arguments about all lesser races.

    So I’m not going to play that game with him and list things.

    Instead I will ask him, SS what have you ever invented?
    You personally what have you invented?

    That comment you made is plagerised from Kilroy isn’t it?
    So i’m going to repeat Paul Merton reply. What have you ever invented?
    What has your secularism ever inspired you to invent. Other then those books?
    Do I need to watch kilroy to get a preview of them?

  529. Suhayl Saadi

    19 Jul, 2013 – 8:00 pm

    Well, I’m sorry to disapoint you but you are not going to get the secterianism you would have hoped for from that request.

    What I believe in is Khilafah. For this to happen Muslims need to get beyond the secterianism the imperialists try to exploit.

    They used it, straight after the revolution. support Sunni against Shia, then use it again when the attacked Iraq supporting Shia against Sunni, and now again to try and get Sunni to attack Iran.
    It is a game. They use school of thought instead of race. They would have just as easily said, Arab against persian.

    I do not consider Iran to be an Islamic state for the same reason I don’t consider any of the countries today as being such.
    The Islamic state is the Khilafah. Anything else is a mix of Islam and Kufr.
    It is debatable how Iran compares to other nations, in the amount of Islam they implement compared to the amount of Kufr. The supporters of each country will admit the country they support isn’t completely Islamic, but they will state it is more Islamic than some other countries.
    I am not going to play that game.

    When it comes to Iranian Tech. Yes credit where it is due.
    I think sanctions have a lot to do with this.
    And the War where the secularists support Saddam against Iran and helped him attack Iran and invade large amounts of it. During this invasion, the imperialists as well as their puppets in the gulf filled Iraq with arms, and restricted Iran from getting them. This created an inventivenes in the Iranian spirit.

  530. Jemand – Censorship Improves History

    Even though you wrote what you did as an attack on me.
    To some extant at least I agree with you.

    People invant.
    It isn’t religion that invents or even a systems of government.
    People do it.

    But somethings encourage advancement and somethings stifle it.
    I believe people like SS get in the way of advancement.
    secularism in the Muslim world is nothing but plagiarisation by people who regard themselves as inferior of a people they regard as superior.
    This doesn’t create advancement or creativity, all it creates is plagiarisation.
    The regimes that were carved out of the Ottoman Khilafah, didn’t suddenly advance to great hights. They stagnated and some regressed.
    They plagiarisation from the white race, while the white nations advanced.
    So all this looking to the white race for answers to our problems, only means an eternal game of catch up.

    I have nothing against learning from each other.
    What I am attacking is the inferiority complex I accuse SS of having.
    And I believe all the secular leaders have this. And I believe a lot of the people SS regard as Islamists, have this too, else they would rule by Khilafah instead of part secularism, part Islam.
    SS and people like him do not result in our nations being as rich or educated as the west. They result in oppresson. I’n police wripping hijabs from girls heads, police wripping beards from men’s faces, and the coups we have seen in egypt and many other countries. And the civil wars that can result from coups

  531. Arsalan.

    This is amusing. What did I invent? Five books. You…?

    Arsalan, in case you hadn’t noticed, the rest of us are having a calm discussion. Take a chill pill.

  532. Actually, Arsalan’s increasingly unhinged ranting sounds like a mirror image of White Aryan Nation propaganda. Have I touched a nerve?

    Remember, now, that this is a white Englishman, who originally was Jewish and (according to a previous post he provided on this public blog) whose name was Edward Goldberg, telling me that I have an inferiority complex, that I am an Uncle Tom, a white supremacist and a racist and that the white ‘races’ are really, really bad. And who seems almost to relish the repeated use of the word, “nigger”.

    Meanwhile, he approvingly quotes the Engish comedian, Paul Merton – another white man and, by Edward’s own definition, a “Kaffir” (perhaps, then, a ‘House Kaffir’?).

    But doesn’t he know that Islam has absolutely nothing to do with ‘race’, that such concepts are alien to Islam? Doesn’t he also know that South African racists used to call Africans, “Kaffirs”?

    And plagiarising from Kilroy? Things may be desperate, what with the “we’re all in it togther” economic situation (the word, economics does not appear in Edward’s mythopoeic lexicon, it seems) but in the name of [insert your chosen deity], they’re not that desperate!

    Some therapy, perhaps…? Arthur Janov? RD Laing?

  533. Being a white supremicist is what I am accusing you of being.
    All you have said, is nothing more that what they say about other races.

    My point is, you don’t have to be white to be a white supremicist. you are proof colour is no bar to be one.

    Islam is what was revealed to the Prophet pbh. That is what we seek to rule by.
    The reason why I call you a racist, is what you have said.
    Things like, “wanting to rule by Islam is bad because some Arab guys might go to call girls in the UK”.
    But at the same time, the many UK men that go to call girls or call boys for that matter has absolutly nothing to do with secularism does it?
    It doesn’t mean secularism is bad does it?

    You are just a racist. If your racist people in the your secular south Africa choose to call Black people Kaffirs, that is their business. But this has to be the most moronic comment you have ever made in regards to the evils of what you call Islam-ism.
    Your previous comments have been about ruling by Islam is bad, because, and then you list a few of the 2 billion Muslims that have done some bad things.
    That was moronic, and in the same level as people who hate blacks and justify it by listing bad things some blacks have done.
    But your last comment, waw, so what is it? ISlam is to blame for racist white south Africans using racist words for blacks?
    Confusing Islam and Muslim is silly, the way you say islam is bad for the action of some Muslims.
    But now our religion is to blame for actions of non-Muslims against other non-Muslims.
    What planet do you live on?
    I don’t think even you can beat that when it comes to moronic justifications of the coup against an elected government by the army?

    When it comes to what you have done and what I have done. Yes, I think 5 books,that can’t feed anyone, can’t house any one, can’t advance society or civilisation. Doesn’t count as an invention, does it? I mean, I’m sure who you call Islamist have written some books?
    So as Paul Merton said to Kilroy, “what have you done other then your boring chat show”, I haven’t read your books, but if they are anything like your comments here, “what have you done other then write 5 boring books”.
    Fiction doesn’t count as inventions.
    What I have done is my business. I’m not getting in to a manhood comparing contest with you.
    The point I am making isn’t about your books. It is about your hypocrisy.
    And you are full of it.

    And my attack on your racism. Your white supremicist racism. Isn’t an attack on whites in anyway. Only a moron, a complete and utter moron would see it as such.
    You just repeat every racist says when defending themselves and their racism.
    Don’t Israeli Jews accuse people of being antisemites when they accuse Zionists of racism?
    Don’t KKK and Aryan Nation accuse people of being racist against whites when they attack their racism.
    And you do the same.

  534. Let me spell it out for you in words you might understand.
    Being against white supremecy doesn’t mean you are against white people.
    Believing in Islam doesn’t mean you hate Non-Muslims.

    It should be obvious to anyone. This concept seems to have gone above your head.
    Paul Merton is white, to the best of my knowledge I don’t think he has converted to Islam recently. But that makes no difference. I like him because he is very funny.
    What I am against is your racist reasons for supporting the coup.
    your white supremecist reasons for supporting the coup.
    And being against your white supremecist words doesn’t mean I am anti white, anti non-Muslim, it just means I am against your racism.

    And be honest, they have largely been racist reasons haven’t they. They haven’t really been about the policies of MB ecconomic or otherwise. It has mainly been, “Islamist, bad, evil, look look what they have done some pakis have killed other pakis, some arabs visit call girls in london, Islamist bad, some non-Muslim south African whites use racist words against non muslim black people, islamists bad”.

    You have repeated what you just said many times. And it makes you sound like a zionists. Isn’t that what they always repeat when anyone tells them not to kill palestinian babies?

    “Islamist bad, look what they did in Iran, bad evil, look what the Germans did to us, Islamist bad”.

    Just like Zionists use the example of actions Palestinians have nothing to do with to scream “Islamists bad”, you use actions the MD have nothing to do with.

  535. Okay, Arsalan, thank you for your contribution.

    Perhaps now the adults would like to resume their discussion?

  536. Painful isn’t it when people disagree with you?

  537. Arsalan, you do your argument a disservice by jumping off the deep end. Please keep your language more temperate.

    I think you are not picking up the nuances of what Suhayl is saying, and for what it’s worth, I agree with him broadly. He has differentiated between Islam and Islamism (or whatever you wish to call it, if this name is not useful for you) and is not mounting an attack on Islam (the religion) at all. But several of us here have made the point that theocratic Islamic governance (possibly becoming a one-party system governed by Sharia courts) is not Islam, it is Islamist (or, again, whatever name you prefer).

    It is this second thing we are disagreeing with.

    I think you understood the point about sustaining an environment in which creativity and inventiveness may flourish, things that are widely agreed as being good for society in general. It is not an atheist point to suggest that moderate non-Islamist governance (which the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt may have turned out to be) generally provides a better culture in which artists, scientists, intellectuals and writers may practice their craft.

    It will surprise you to learn that I moderately approve of Tehran making use of nuclear power to generate electricity. I am opposed to their developing nuclear weapons, but I agree with the US State Department that there is no evidence of widespread activity of this kind, despite the propaganda that tells us otherwise. Now, I am opposed to nuclear power in general for environmental reasons, but it is not up the the Americans to tell the Iranians how they may generate electricity. I would thoroughly approve of a genuine grass-roots environmental movement in Iran that campaigns against nuclear power, though I am not sure what rights they would have to effectively demonstrate against it.

    Suhayl’s point about Arab’s visiting call girls is hardly central to his argument, but I think he was pointing out religious hypocrisy, not stating a view on prostitution. After all, if you voted for a religious government that offered proscriptive views on the exercise of sexuality, and heavy penalties were instituted for infractions, you’d be pretty annoyed if the rich and powerful could flout such legislation with impunity, wouldn’t you?

    If you could drop the KKK/Aryan/Nazi/Kilroy stuff, it would be much appreciated. You’ve clearly no idea how much it makes you sound deranged, regardless of how honestly you hold the views that you do. For what it is worth, I do think you hold your views honestly, and they are better discussed on the Internet than not at all.

    If you are willing to give us some non-identifying detail about your background, I think that would be useful. Were you previously Jewish? That is of interest, genuinely. I was brought up in the Church of England, but the white Zimbabwean minister we had was an ogre, and still for me exemplifies religious authoritarianism. My experience of religion as a child was stultifying and lobotomising, though I know some adults now who speak well of it. I think if religion cannot be rejected it should be enjoyed quietly, without an organisation – it is the latter that pupports to offer solidarity, and ends up exerting political and financial control over the vulnerable.

  538. This is quite boring, Arsalan. You seem to have no ability properly to discourse with people in an adult fashion. You find yourself indulged here, perhaps, but I have withheld that unfortunate customary indulgence, just for a moment, and now everyone can see how you have reacted. This dynamic occurs every time you face any resistance to the specific fanatical ideology through which you seem to have sought personal redemption. One senses a certain increasing desperation in your pronouncements. Your contributions are embarassing – I am embarassed for you, Arsalan. You are making a fool of yourself. For your own sake, please try to relax and put things in perspective. This is just a blog and I am not your personal enemy. I wish you no ill.

  539. Fedup:

    Are we mates and good to go, or are you going to stay sulky and moody? (stated with in a conciliatory tone, so don’t take it the wrong way)

    This shifts more blame for your evasiveness right back to me, again, and isn’t help if you genuinely wish to rebuild the bridges you’ve been blowing up. You’ve given me a right run-around, and frankly I am exhausted by it.

    If you now choose to reveal yourself as non-religious, then I am mystified why you have been strongly and repeatedly arguing for Islamic, or Islamist, governance. But, you write a great deal and don’t say very much; I’ve read thousands of words from you over the years, literally, and I still have pretty much no idea what you stand for. If you want to write a piece that explains that, perhaps with some non-identifying detail about your background, then hey, that’d be very cool.

    What have I ignored?

    Amongst many things, the “good Jew” dilemma (linked earlier in this thread). I commend the challenge to Arsalan too – I am not the angry right-winger you think I am.

  540. There is no internet equivalent of a loud whistle, so I have to invent a one:

    WWWWWWWWIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEE

    Stop this nonsense at once, fighting each other without respecting the Dojo and observing Bushido

    1- Stop calling each other names, and simply being prats.

    2- Start debating on the substance of the issue.

    3- Regardless of the disagreements, you are at least prepared to talk to each other, so why stop doing good, when we all live in a world of shit?

    Here endeth the lecture.

    Arsalan, It is perfectly understandable that whilst most Muslims living under the rule of various tossers who are propped up by the neocolonial expansionists. The poor Muslims have not enough potable water to drink, or adequate shelter to live in, and don’t have enough food to sustain them. To find Suhayl is asking “Tell me what the Muslims have invented?” is an annoying to say the list, and a bloody red rag to the proverbial bull to say the most.

    Suhayl, you find whilst you are getting it in the neck from the cryptoracist surrounding you, then to be subjected to some of the uncharitable labels you get from other perceived minorities, gets you pissed off, and you retaliate. This self breeding reaction arrives at a destructive resonance, and both of you walk away without having achieved anything, and only wasted your time.

    I hope you both wish to move forward and learn from the debate whilst affecting each other positively.

    So far we have agreed that Political Islam should be referred to, instead of “Islam-ism”. Further, given that there could be a chasm in your life experiences, don’t take it for granted that the other understands what you mean.

    In fact I have experienced this particular point, that has been dominating my transactions with Jon. He believed I am religious whilst in reality I am not, and based on that we were debating on parallel tracks. I am sure Arsalan would have adduced that I am not religious but Jon did not. (now Arsalan would start that he thought so too!!). Hence try and explain in more descriptive or use more mundane language, remember you are not seeing each other to decode the semiotics (facial expressions, hand gestures, etc).

    Slap on the butts of both opponents and let the bout begin.

    No kicking the fucking ref for any excuse either!

  541. I’m sorry, Fedup. I have been attempting to stick to the issues. I have critised political ideologies. I have engaged with you and Jemand in a civil tone. Withut any justification, I have been called horrendous and utterly inappropriate names by Arsalan. When, finaly, I make it clear that this needs to stop, you decide to intervene.

    Also, I did not agree that the term, ‘Islamism’ should not be used.

    Finally, I am as puzzled as Jon by your position. You certainly seem to me pretty consistently to have been mostly to be arguing from a religious-political, specifically an Islamic religious-political, position.

  542. If you now choose to reveal yourself as non-religious, then I am mystified why you have been strongly and repeatedly arguing for Islamic, or Islamist, governance.

    The simple fact is for any life form to evolve and progress. The life form ought to be living in an environment that is most conducive to its growth, to further develop on the path towards evolving to further adapt to its surrounds.

    With that preface, the current Muslim societies have been subject of the Western plutocrats aggression with a view to exploitation for a considerable period, further these plutocrats have managed to push and hold these Muslim societies in the orbits of dependencies. The resultant of these combined elements of control, is societies that are effectively consumers and have developed little in the way of self sustaining constructs.

    The exogenous control measures have also yielded the appointment of various charge hands, masquerading as the local leaders, who effectively are catering for the interests of their masters the Western plutocrats.

    In the interest of human progress, and working towards an assured future for humanity, we need to provide an environment that will allow the development of the societies that are evidently suffering from arrested development syndrome. To this end there should exist; a moratorium on aggression, and a period of none intervention ought to be aimed at. Further, to ensure the latter, it would serve the cause of the progress well to rely on the local traditions and imperatives to kick-start the process.

    Islam is a spring board that can help to achieve local autonomy, and due to its comprehensive instruction sets can allow the gradual development of these societies along the path of modernity. The process has worked in the past and surprisingly succeeded with great results. To expect the Afghans to start modernising and stop growing opium crop, we need to let them develop at their own pace and with reliance on their own imperatives.

    Before we go any further, has this clarified the context or are you still mystified?

  543. “Fedup, are you the same person who posts under, ‘Passerby’? Or are you two different people? It’s just a little confusing sometimes. ‘Fedup’ and ‘Passerby’ seem to possess very similar voices.”

    Did you get an answer to that, Suhayl?

    Arsalan, you have shocked me with your nastiness.

  544. In essence, Fedup, it seems clear to me that your intervention is a riposte to that of Jon (4:24pm).

    I question why you may be asserting that you do not hold Islamist (or Islamic Fundamentalist, or what you might prefer to call ‘Politically Islamic’) views when actually, the majority of your input into this blog has suggested precisely the opposite. I wonder whether you post also as Passerby and Cryptonym – I may be quite wrong about this, but the voices of these three handles seem interchangeable, their politica positions indistinguishable. Might this be to suggest that there are three contributors who hold your views, rather than just one?

    There’s no law against this; it simply is an observation.

    Now, for you to play ‘honest broker’ in these contexts, I think is problematic.

  545. the majority of your input into this blog has suggested precisely the opposite.

    In the face of the tsunami of anti-Muslim propaganda, the underdogs need every bit of help, and every man of conscience at the pump, won’t you agree?

    Also, I did not agree that the term, ‘Islamism’ should not be used.

    This pejorative term is aiming to portray and validate political Islam as some kind of a deviant and retrogressive ideology.

    Why do you think the current anti-Muslim wave of sentiments is sewn, propagated and maintained? You are grown up enough to know that “democracy”, apple-pie and all the rest of the brand names are solely for the benefit of maintaining the current status quo, that has yielded the total fuck-up (the latest of which is the “banking crisis”) we have arrived at.

  546. ‘Political Islam could be lots of things – as I suggested, it could be liberation theology, or the Edhi health work which I admire. ‘Islamism’ is an effective and useful term refers to the Salafi/Wahabi/Deobandi postmodern hybrid (or its Shia counterpart) and in my view, these hybrids are indeed ‘deviant and retrogressive ideologies’.

    Your attempt to conflate Islam with Islamism is typical and it is what people like Arsalan and other so-called fundamentalists try to achieve.

    It is an obfuscation, an apologetics, an attempt to hoodwink (largely) gullible liberals.

    No, the Islamists are not the underdogs. They have the support of (tactically) NATO and strategically, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Pakistan and billions of petrodollars.

  547. voices of these three handles seem interchangeable, their politica positions indistinguishable.

    This really amuses me, a cheap Cluedo thrill moment, to what end?

    What purpose does it serve?

    There seems to be an obsessive compulsive preoccupation with my pseudo identity. Suhayl you used to wax lyrical that I was something “steel” or some other undesirable character that you wanted to out me as. However for some unknown reason the figure three has been a constant in these “outings”, ever thought why is that?

  548. The three is not important, Fedup. But you refusing to answer the question is. Steelback, Apostate and Freeborn are not around, so you needn’t bother deflecting the question by dragging them up.

    Are Fedup and Passerby one person? Because they undoubtedly speak with the same voice.

  549. ‘Islamism’ is an effective and useful term refers to the Salafi/Wahabi/Deobandi postmodern hybrid (or its Shia counterpart) and in my view, these hybrids are indeed ‘deviant and retrogressive ideologies’.

    I rest my case. Despite the fact that you know the differences! Yet you go along with the virulent campaign of hatred directed against all Muslims who believe that their political constructs should be an organic construct. A construct that relates to their values, imperatives, and traditions. Throwing the baby, bath water, window and so forth, seems to be so fashionable.

    Salafi/Wahabi/Deobandi are just that: Salafi/Wahabi/Deobandi! To depict these movements and bundle them together with political Islam and shove these into a singular label of “Islam-ism”, is a mendacious attempt to discount the aspirations of millions of people. Through portraying their ideals as retrogressive and deviant. Communism was the last nemesis that the deviant plutocracies managed to conjure as the evil incarnate, now next nemesis/”deviant ideology” is to be found in “Islam-ism”.

    Further in the absence of a delineation of Salafi-ism/Wahhabi-ism/Deobandi-ism, a direct result of “lazy intellectualism”, that is reliant on general ignorance will yield any questions/objections. Those Muslim intellectuals intent on progressing the cause of political Islam are stifled. Also stifled is the wider Muslim world, that finds itself under further attacks as yet in the planning.

    This of course is a win, win situation for the reactionaries on both side of the divide, the deviant plutocracies, and the deviant retrogressive tribal chieftains bent on perpetuating their feudal rule.

    Indeed there is an attempt in hoodwinking, but who is hoodwinking whom is the question.

  550. you refusing to answer the question is.

    Free speech does not imply a right to dialogue.

  551. I think the term “Islamism” might have been coined as a portmanteau word for “Islamic activism” wherein muslims are agitate for the infusion of Islamic observance and customs in political processes and laws.

    It’s appearance as a perjorative is probably due to the negative context of discussions by non-muslims of Islam related matters. There’s not much that is positive in the news these days, is there?

    If the meaning of the term is understood and agreed, then it is valid and useful.

  552. Fedup, if you want to encourage this reasonable suspicion that you are one and the same person as Passerby, then you will be treated as one and the same. Confusion solved.

  553. It’s got nothing to do with Cluedo, or thrills, Fedup, as you well know. Sockpuppets are used to give the impression of more support for a position than actually exists.

    I take it you can’t answer the question – or at least, you can’t answer it truthfully.

  554. Nope, FedUp. It is the postmodern hybrid – as I said, “hybrid” of the ‘political Islam’ that came out of – was propagated by – Saudi Arabia and its fusion with pre-existing forms with which I have major political disagreement. That is Islamism and it has nothing to do with tradition. It is not in the slightest traditional. “The virulent campaign of hatred directed against all Muslims” is something quite distinct and is something for which I have equal opprobrium.

  555. It is the postmodern hybrid

    This statement is flawed. The Salafi-ism/Wahhabi-ism/Deobandi-ism are no post modernist hybrids. These are adaptations of Islam for the benefit of the feudal practices prevalent in the particular geographical regions, with a distinctive demographies. The adaptation to be classified as a hybrid strictly is not true, because the adaptation of Islam is a perversion of the religion itself and use of hybrid dignifies such a construct, in effect helping perpetuation of the deviances from the tenets of the religion.

    The simple fact that Wahhabi-ism is the brand of choice for Saudi despots, ought to be telling. However the historical narrative deficits, have obfuscated the actualities which in turn have resulted in further suppression of the exploited Saudi citizens who are further marginalised by the current confusion over the direction of the political Islam. This promoted as “conventional wisdom” in the wider world, as well as within the Muslim world.

    In any case fact that an old age pensioner is attacked* and stabbed to death by a Ukrainian that so far has not been named and his religion or affiliation as yet are remaining a mystery, somehow is not enough to stop the venom that is flowing so freely to further marginalise and suppress the Muslims and their political aspirations.

    The simple fact that suppression of political Islam is the desired outcome for the reactionaries on both sides of the divide somehow going missing. On goes the circular debate reiterating the prejudices and preconceived notions. The neo liberal dogma of beating the “deviancies” out of the “Islam-ists” is carried on unabated; all in the name of challenging the “extremists”. The game of civilising (bombing the shit out of them) the “savages” is replayed with a differing set of victims.

    * Mohammed Saleem was murdered in April on his way home after attending prayers in his mosque. His murders were caught after a belated investigation to a bombing of a mosque in June.

  556. I said what I said because arrgance like this needs to be answered in that way:

    Suhayl Saadi

    17 Jul, 2013 – 12:56 pm

    Absolutist, supremacist, exclusivist, oppressive, lobotomising, postmodern… [these are the polite adjectives]

    _ _ _
    The above are insults he uses against people he disagrees with. When I call him a racist. I do not mean it as an insult. I mean it as a statement of fact.

    Statments like “Saudi Arabia: Ask the call girls of Knightsbridge. ” are not statments about idiology or politics. They are racist statements. I am not going to shy away from stating it. Everything he said from start to finnish is nothing but racial generalisations, racial attacks.

    When it comes to the whole issue. About the coup in Egypt. And the arguments the secularists use. “Oh the Egyptians might have voted 73%, in one election for them, and more then 80% in another for them, but they just all changed their minds”, this is nothing but racial arrogance. How stupied do these people think Egyptians are? this is nothing but a colonialists mindset that lesser races are unable to rule themselves.

    When I call him, and some other people racist. That as directed at them as individuals.

    When he said what he did, 17 Jul, 2013 – 12:56 pm,
    It was directed at those who do not share his sense of secularism. It wasn’t directed at one person or one group who did one thing that he disagrees with. It was directed at the vast majority of Muslims as shown by the elections.
    I don’t call that a difference of politics. I call that racism and white supremicy, and I do not shy away from saying that just because he has brown skin.
    If i held him by another set of values from what i hold other people such as the BNP who say pretty much the same thing, I’d call myself a racist.

  557. last post was meant for Dreoilin

  558. Jon

    20 Jul, 2013 – 4:24 pm

    I know you agree with him. And I have said what I said to him to you as well. Don’t feel left out.

    I have said I don’t recognise the word “Islamism” and I don’t recognise the fact that you or he consider it to be one party.
    Why?
    Because the Brotherhood, didn’t arrest all the other parties when they won the election.
    What was one party was the regime they placed. What resulted in arrest was the regime that replaced it. They are the ones that arrested the brotherhood after the elections.

    I think by Islamist, you and he mean Muslims that are not secularists. Muslims that don’t restrict themselves to just obey the parts of the quran that deal with their individual lives but also things that deal with the state?
    Am I right?
    Well then it is Islam you are against.
    Islam doesn’t restrict itself to just advise us on our individual lives.
    It is nonsense, to say it isn’t Islam to obey that parts of Islam that talk about state, but it is this new word we have just invented called Islamism.
    Sorry, I don;t buy it.

    If you were talking about a differences you had with a government, a state, or a political party. That would not have been an issue. I’m sure I have my own differences with them too. Instead it was, “Islamist” and he brought examples of people in Muslim countries doing bad things, completely unconnected with the brotherhood, and often unconnected with politics, like his call girl example.
    I call that racism, not political debate.

    Sorry I will not state any details about my back ground. I want to discuse the issue at hand, not my background.
    The backgrounds of the people debating here makes no difference to how valid thier arguments are. To say it does, is racism.

  559. Suhayl Saadi

    20 Jul, 2013 – 4:30 pm

    When I called you a racist. It wasn’t an insult. It wasn’t ill will to you. It was just meant as a statment of fact.
    I have meant everyword I stated as a statement of fact. None were meant as insults. I appologise if they were taken as such.

    Jon

    20 Jul, 2013 – 4:39 pm

    Jews are not Zionists and Zionists are not Jews.

    fedup
    20 Jul, 2013 – 4:40 pm
    You are right, I knew you are not religious.
    Why?
    Because that is what you stated.
    Unlike Jon, I don’t believe you support Islamic government. I believe you are someone that believes people have better ways of ruling themselves. But how they rule themselves is their business, not yourown?
    Am I right?

    When it comes to things like water and food. Well the secular governments have had about the last 80 years to sort that stuff out. Islam also has a solution to distributing water. Secularist might refuse to apply it because it is a solution given in our religious texts. But the secularists haven’t been able to solve these problems with their secularism have they?
    And I don’t believe secularists even have the will to solve it. What non-Muslims don’t know about the Muslim world and the secularists inside it. Is secularists are a tiny westernised Minority, who think themselves superior than the average person. They have no concerns about how the average person, eats drinks or sleeps, because secularists have access to imported lexuries. They aren’t intrested in water, they get imported bottled water. These secular dictators and the people that support them have ignored the poor ever since they were given power by the colonialists. It was people like the brotherhood that feed the people for all those years. I trust them more to feed the people when they are in government then the secularists, because they have been doing it for the last 80 years while being an illigal organisation.

  560. Suhayl Saadi

    20 Jul, 2013 – 5:07 pm

    Don’t try acting all innocent.
    We can all scrole up and read what you said if we want a taste of insults.
    You act like a Zionists. They bomb cities to bits and cry, and pretend to be an innocent victim when a child throws a rick back.
    How is that any different from you using words like this:
    Suhayl Saadi

    17 Jul, 2013 – 12:56 pm

    Absolutist, supremacist, exclusivist, oppressive, lobotomising, postmodern… [these are the polite adjectives]
    _____________ _
    And then crying, pretending to be a victim when anyone says anything back?
    get over yourself.

    This is that attitude of the secularists who have just taken over egypt. For decades they ruled as a single party, imposing secularism by force. Wripping the hijabs of heads and the beards off faces at the point of a gun. And then there was an election, and they did a coup to get back in power with the excuse. “They are Islamist, look they dont share power, they might stop us dressing the way we want”. When the secularists themselves ruled for decades, unelected on their own. And now after the coup, they do so again. arresting all who disagree with them.

  561. Suhayl Saadi

    20 Jul, 2013 – 7:33 pm

    Your attemp to say that it isn’t is dishonest coming from someone who should know better.
    You know as well as I do, that both the Quran and the Sunnah talk of things that relate to the state as well as the individual.
    To stop using the word Islam for anything but the individual parts of Islam and to make up a new word for the taking Islam as a whole is very dishonest.

    Islamism is just a word racists made up to feel good about themselves.
    What it really means, is Islam practiced in a way the white masters disagree with.
    The colonialists want to pick and choose what we can follow of Islam, and following anything on top of that is Islamism.

    Your attempt to mash togeather Deobandi/wahabi/Salafi with political Islam is a case of “Lets fool whitey”.
    You assume the Non-Muslims here are so ignorant they will accept what you say without further thought because you have brown skin so what you say about Islam must be true.
    You mash togeather political and non Political, you mash togeather different groups in different regions that have no connection with each other. You do all this in the way Jim crow America refused to allow blacks on the front of buses using the example of what some African tribes do in Africa.
    That is why I call you a racist. It was never meant as an insult.

  562. Arsalan, much of what you iterate is simply regurgitated Hizb ut Tahrir propaganda. You appear to have swallowed their entire oeuvre.

    In the end, whatever you call yourselves (and you can call yourselves the Crack Coke Raving Loony Party, for all I care) your (I speak not, now of you, personally, but of that cult with which you have identified yourself) actions on the ground – in Syria, Libya, Pakistan, elsewhere – is the hard evidence that what you bring to Muslims and others is an age of darkness. Blood and soil is what you bring.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizb_ut-Tahrir

  563. Their entire political philosophy is one of avoidance and distorting history into polemic to suit their simplistic world view. This represents a descent into political psychosis.

    Arsalan appears to be trying to use the tactics they use on white liberal lecturers and so on in universities whenever they are challenged. It doesn’t work on me and it is patently absurd even to attempt to use those simplistic tactics. I know what they’ve done and I know what they are. I know their arguments and their tactics.

    Does not Arsalan’s mode of argumentation remind one a little of that of Alfred Burdett, the white supremacist retired academic who used to post here on a regular basis, when Dr Burdett continued to insist that there had been, “genocide in Leicester”? For Alfred, it was curry and mitochondria. For Arsalan, it is “kaffirs” and a ‘Star Wars’ vision of human history.

    This is all toxic nonsense and it must be confronted and opposed in a vigorous and consistent manner.

    http://www.hizb-ut-tahrir.org/index.php/EN/bshow/1716

  564. And in the UK, just as the EDL/BNP/NF et al attempt to exploit the racist murders of white people, and deliberately provoke, so too the Islamists attempt to exploit the racist murders of black and brown people for their own purposes. Both these extremist groupings would like to see more murder and mayhem on tribal grounds. They would like to see, ‘Syria’ everywhere. And neither are viable responses to neoliberal economics or the systematisation of imperial war that is both its generator and its instrument.

  565. “You do all this in the way Jim crow America refused to allow blacks on the front of buses using the example of what some African tribes do in Africa.
    That is why I call you a racist. It was never meant as an insult.” Arsalan.

    What utter nonsense.

  566. Arsalan,

    I think by Islamist, you and he mean Muslims that are not secularists.

    Well, read what I said again:

    [Suhayl] has differentiated between Islam and Islamism … and is not mounting an attack on Islam (the religion) at all. But several of us here have made the point that theocratic Islamic governance (possibly becoming a one-party system governed by Sharia courts) is not Islam, it is Islamist

    The difference is stark, Arsalan – Islam is a religion that is peaceful and a billion or so people subscribe to it. Your version, hardline theocratic Islamism, is an abomination of it, a corruption. It becomes undemocratic, violent, and stifles creativity and freedom.

    Here you say:

    Oh the Egyptians might have voted 73%, in one election for them, and more then 80% in another for them, but they just all changed their minds”, this is nothing but racial arrogance.

    I think you’re getting two issues confused. This is what we were talking about initially, the Egyptian revolution. I took the view that a new government should be formed because people were fed up of the Morsi government, not because of their Islamic faith. I’ve already said that I would respect the result if the Morsi government won a new vote, but you claimed not to believe me.

    So, to recap, I am inclined to oppose the continuation of the Morsi government because I think they have no democratic mandate. I am not of the view that they were an Islamist government, and it did not look like they would become one. As I have made clear though, I have not opposed them on the grounds of their faith.

    Perhaps, then, this is the problem:

    Well then it is Islam you are against. Islam doesn’t restrict itself to just advise us on our individual lives. It is nonsense, to say it isn’t Islam to obey that parts of Islam that talk about state, but it is this new word we have just invented called Islamism.

    Here you are insisting that, to implement Islam fully, one must have an Islamic state. That’s fine up to a point, if it has the consent of the people. But must it tear down democracy, as a Sharia system would do? Must it focus on veils and beards rather than female education and health statistics? Must it drive out all creativity and entrepreneurialism in favour of purity of religion?

    So, again, for the umpteenth time: the word “Islamist” in the context it is being used here is not racist or derogatory. It means a very specific thing: a hardline, intolerant form of religious governance. I appreciate it is used in a lazy context by the hard right and the mass media, and I agree that is unpleasant. If there is a word that we can use instead, I will consider using it, but in the meantime, “Islamic” and “Islamist” is not the same thing, at all.

    What it really means, is Islam practiced in a way the white masters disagree with.

    No, not true. Your permanent appeals to racism cannot be used to justify anything you like, Arsalan.

    Some years ago, I spoke for a while to representatives of the local Ahmadiyya Muslim community in Leamington, and I wonder if their message might be interesting to you. They believe that equality, freedom and peace are especially important, and they emphasise it in their teachings.

  567. Suhayl Saadi

    21 Jul, 2013 – 8:44 am

    The blood soil is already there. the secularists didn’t need people who believe in all of Islam to slaughter their populations.

    You sound like Karimov, isn’t that the excuse he uses to slaughter his population?

    And this isn’t about any particular group. Because you reject any ruling by Islam. You have a trancated ISlam, where you have selected the parts of the Quran that you would consider Islam from the parts you call Islamism.

    We can call you, a Karimov without a state, and Karimov is exactly what you would be if you had one.

    Don’t pretend to try and box me and say “you are them”. When you reject not just all political groups that are guided by Islam, but also non-political movements that are guided by Islam.

    Jon.
    democratic mandate is only what you say it isn’t isn’t it?
    It is the will of the tiny minority that lost the election and not of the majority that won it?
    It is the will of the ones that agree with you?

    That brings me to how you view ruling by Islam. It is you and sahal that say anything but secularism is bloodshed. it is I that say the opposite. Most Blood is on the hands of the secularists.
    And when it comes to you stating what the majority of Muslims are, it is amzing you pick a tiny sect which everyone but themselves regard as outside of the fold of islam.

    Just as what you say about vertues of secularism is false. As can be seen by viewing every effort to enforce secularism on the Muslim world.
    What the Qadyanis say about themselves is also false.

    “equality, freedom and peace”

    Where was their belief in Equality and freedom? They were founded during British rule in India, in which they supported colonialism and opposed the independents movement.
    And where is their belief in peace, when they join the BRitish Army and give their full support to British wars.
    These are just slogans. But the reason they are reguarded is non-Muslims is the fact they believe in a Prophet after Mohummed pbh, when Muslims believe he was the last and final Prophet.

  568. SS and Jon
    it is very dishonest of you to try an indicate my views are that of a tiny minority while yours are the views of Muslims.
    Remember this thread is about, people who believe in the fact that the religion of the people should have a say in the running of the state winning the election by a massive margine. When it comes to the upper house, it was more than 80%.
    To say that isn’t a democratic mandate, is hypocrisy and dishonesty.
    To say that you believe in democracy but not the election that elects people who YOU wouldn’t have voted for is hypocrisy.
    But what I call racism, is your attitude, that the Egyption people are so thick that they would all just vote for some people, not knowing they are what you call Islamist, and then before the ink is dry, say, “oh shittt, ticked the wrong box”, and then a millitry coup is the will of the people.

    And Jon, it is you that says Muslims that believe in the parts of the Quran that talk of affairs of state are bloodthirsty. All Muslims believe in all parts of the Quran. the fact that Muslims are not what you say ruling by Islam is, doesn’t mean they don’t believe in ruling by Islam. It means you are wrong about what you call “islamism”.
    I don’t really believe you and SS are wrong, I believe you are lying.

  569. Arsalan, you are entirely correct. Succinctly put.

    Although I would further expand; through respect for self-determination and autonomy of the “lesser men/savages/Islam-ists/etc” the knock-on effect/domino effect will be a more responsive mode of governance in the West. ie when two million people march on London, the government just simply does not ignore them and still go to a war of its choice to kill millions of Iraqis and then prevaricate it has only killed one hundred thousand Iraqis.

    It is lamentable that whilst “liberals/benign reactionaries” on this board and elsewhere are too busy suppressing/denouncing the political aspirations of the “lesser men/savages/Islam-ists/etc”. They are paving the way for the nonsense to be pumped out by the various “nice men on the telly”. Who put a spin on dictatorial conduct as “strong leadership”, my fucking foot. Alas “strong leadership” is the pay off, of trying to civilise the savages. Eventually we all become savages to be civilised by our “betters” whom have reasonable ground to dictate to us all through “strong leadership”.

  570. fedup
    20 Jul, 2013 – 4:40 pm
    You are right, I knew you are not religious.
    Why?
    Because that is what you stated.
    Unlike Jon, I don’t believe you support Islamic government. I believe you are someone that believes people have better ways of ruling themselves. But how they rule themselves is their business, not yourown?
    Am I right?

    I forgot!

  571. Arsalan,

    As can be seen by viewing every effort to enforce secularism neoliberal capitalism on the Muslim world.

    There, fixed it for you :)

  572. There, fixed it for you

    Can you fix “Islam-ism/ists” for us too mate? :)

  573. Jon, you stated that “Islam is a religion that is peaceful”. Do you know of examples of religions that are not peaceful? Can you advise what criteria might be used to determine whether a religion is peaceful or not? 

  574. Jemand – Censorship Improves History

    He wont answer it honestly I will.
    No religions are peaceful except one.
    Only one religion calls for pacafism. It isn’t Judaism, it isn;t christianity, as i am not a lying hypcrit I will admit, it isn;t Islam.
    It isn’t Bodhism.

    The only religion that is peaceful is Jainism.
    But even Jains fought wars. Not just wars of defense, but also wars of agression and conquest just like everyone else.

    It is humans that are violent. Islam does not say turn the other cheeck. No religion except Jainism truely does. But even they don’t practice it.
    What Islam does is provide rules of war. It tells us when we must fight and when we must not.
    I’m not saying all Muslims obey these laws. Even some Muslims who claim to follow Islam find excusses round these laws, just as jains play games with their scripture when it comes to war. Muslims are not perfect, But Islam is.

  575. It’s pretty the party line from Hizb ut-Tahrir we’re getting here from Arsalan and FedUp. Passerby/Cryptonym must be on sabbatical. Check out their website and you’ll see what I mean.

  576. “I don’t really believe you and SS are wrong, I believe you are lying.” Arsalan.

    Nice.

  577. The only other poster who regularly has referred to me as, “SS” is Dr Alfred Burdett, the Canadian white supremacist whose main argument was that there had been “genocide” in Leicester, England, commited by Indians against the British.

    I most certainly am not, ‘SS’.

    The key question, it seems to me, is, who really is advocating the policies of the blackshirt?

  578. It’s pretty the party line from Hizb ut-Tahrir we’re getting here from Arsalan and FedUp. Passerby/Cryptonym must be on sabbatical. Check out their website and you’ll see what I mean.

    Fcuk off man if you cannot be arsed to write a proper rebuttal, then skip coming here and throwing a line or two, only yo fuck off and get on with finger banging Mary Jane rotten crutch.

    This will be of course Moded away but your shite will be left smeared all over the board.

    Trying my fucking patience!

  579. Delightful, Fedup. (Your personality in a nutshell, I might add.)

    ———————–

    The question I’m asking myself, is, what has happened to the Arsalan we used to know? Has be been “converted”? Is he now another (type of) person with different beliefs?
    I never before saw him being so rude, or so aggressive, or for that matter, so voluble.
    Or, expounding the kind of stuff he is now.

    And Arsalan, to call people “liars” who are debating with you in good faith here, is just not acceptable. For starters.

  580. Suhayl Saadi

    21 Jul, 2013 – 3:05 pm

    Khilafah isn’t the private property of HT. The Hadith are the words of our Prophet pbh not of any group.
    Abu Bakr, Umar Uthman and Ali were not members of HT, they were companians of the Prophet pbh. The Umayad, Abasid and Ottomans were not members of the group, they existed long before.
    Again you enter dishonesty, well, at least you were honest about being a communist, thanks for that.

    Dreoilin
    I am still the same person. I don’t have a problem with people disagreeing with me. It is dishonesty and hypocrisy which I don’t like.
    Others on this thread have said they do agree with the millitry coup. I didn’t take issue with them, because they did so honestly and without hypocrisy. Admiting that they don’t believe in democracy.

  581. Fedup: that’s plainly abusive, as well as featuring (nonsensical) strains of sexual violence. Rather unpleasant, surely? I am inclined however to let it stand, as readers need to see the characters involved in this debate when they reveal themselves.

    My invitation to hear something about your background, “perhaps with some non-identifying detail”, still stands. I think having people here say something about roughly where they live, or their broad political worldview, or what they do for a living, is useful. The suggestion is extended to Passerby and Cryptonym too.

  582. What is the point. I can’t prove it anyway unless I give information revealing who I am like my address and bank account details.

    By not giving any information about myself. I only need to prove the points I make and not details about my private life.

    Anyway, one bit of information I will reveal. I am Muslim. It is ramdhan. I should be spending it in worship and not on forums. Bye, I might be back after eid.

  583. Arsalan, I’m not of the view that giving personal information is of help, but non-identifying information sometimes adds some colour and human reality. Me, I’m sitting in a cafe in Birmingham, England at the moment, listening to Feist on headphones. That reminds me: if I need cheering up, I watch this – it is completely childish, and I love it. It’s even better if you know her material – she’s clearly willing to goof off and not take herself too seriously! If you have kids, put ‘em in front of it.

    I sense this discussion is coming to a close, so thanks for sharing your thoughts, even if we didn’t come to agreement. Enjoy Ramadan, and I hope at least that – even if it has felt like an onslaught – you have taken food for thought here. Best wishes to you.

  584. My invitation to hear something about your background, “perhaps with some non-identifying detail”

    Why is there a need for my resume?

    At this late stage?
    What late stage?

    1- You assumed I was religious.

    2- I have lent a hand to the under dog that needs to be helped.

    3- There is a huge respect deficit to human rights, that is my rights, your rights, and everyone else’s rights.

    4- The collapse of the USSR only helped the virulent “capitalists”* (ie plutocrats, oligarchs, and feudal overlords) to be emboldened (using one of their own stock phrases) and further erode our rights.

    5- With the levels of illiteracy of 78% in Pakistan the only way forward is through organic organisations crystallised around their Islamic faith, whilst ensuring against the Deobandi and Wahhabi influences.

    6- Vested interests in security and mayhem will stop at nothing to spike the progress of these societies. Tere is lots more profit in murder than life. Killing happens so quick and not much planning is needed for it, a speedy return on the capital deployed. Life needs lot more patience and effort and then there is the emergent competition from the stable societies that would complicate the rule of the said fuckwits. Those whom verily believe they have an entitlement and a divine right to remain at the “apex”.

    7- The same is true of Afghanistan, Iraq, Bahrain, Qatar, Dubai, Saudi, Somali, and so one. Swaths of humanity effectively sentenced to a stagnant existence without ever achieving any of the potential the is locked in such a vast human asset.

    8- Their rights, are our rights! Our rights are their rights! For disrespect to their inalienable rights is disregard for our inalienable rights!

    * Capitalism is a misnomer, for Capitalism to exist there is a need for free markets, the current rigged and fraudulent markets, and heavily regulated workers rights are anything but capitalism, a more accurate phrase perhaps could be measured slavery of autonomous slaves

  585. Arsalan 21 Jul, 2013 – 2:34 pm
    “It is humans that are violent.”

    It is always worth remembering that most people live not being violent. Kropotkin argued there is considerably more cooperation than violence in nature and that cooperation produces excellent evolutionary outcomes. Attenborough peddles the law of the jungle as a framework to justify greed and war. So good news, it’s a dog lick dog world.

    http://www.complementarycurrency.org/ccLibrary/Mutual_Aid-A_Factor_of_Evolution-Peter_Kropotkin.pdf

  586. listening to Feist on

    Different folks different stones and birds in the hand :)

    I relax thus don’t forget to turn up the bass and fire up the volume.

    Here is some more pump up the volume.

  587. “Fcuk off man if you cannot be arsed to write a proper rebuttal, then skip coming here and throwing a line or two, only yo fuck off and get on with finger banging Mary Jane rotten crutch.” FedUp, 4:21pm.

    Yes, I think that pretty much sums up the Islamist stance whenever subjected to serious challenge. Perhaps it ought to be left in place as a testament, a reference, an historical lexicographical monument that cannot be demolished.

    Do have a peaceful Ramazan (and yes, I spelt it with a ‘z’). Good morning, peace be upon you and thank you.

  588. SS
    you sound like a Zionist who has just killed a bunch of Muslims in Ramadhan.
    “Do you remember a peaceful Ramadhan”.
    :)
    Lets be clear on this, that statement just like pretty much all your statements are an attack on Islam, and all Muslims. Not who you call Islamists. Muslims that believe in the parts of Islam you have rejected because they don’t fit in with your idiology.

    It is all about imposing your ways on people you see as lesser humans isn’t it?
    And then you pretend to be the one with the moral high ground.

    Passer has never said he is Muslim. Well even if he is non-Muslim that shouldnt stop you using him as an example of Islamist should it. Remebering you did use the racist language of non-Muslim white south africans against non-Muslim black south africans, to say Islam and Muslims are bad, didn’t you?

  589. Yes, I think that pretty much sums up the Islamist stance whenever subjected to serious challenge.

    What challenge? Is this another version of the fucking Schrödinger’s Cat? The challenge is seen by you and not the rest of us?

    All you have done is to point your finger and let rip; Islam-ists, Islam-ists, Islam-ists, Islam-ists, Islam-ists, ……….. Hizb ut-Tahrir, …. Islam-ists!

    If your political sensibilities find religion a threat, it is a sure-fire certainty that you will not be making much progress in among the religious demography which you are trying to convert to your political philosophy.

    What is the fucking difference between your diatribes and the EDL’s; we are not against Islam, we just hate fucking Muslims?

    For the umpteen time I am not a religious person, will you stop rounding up on me as an “Islam-ist”!

  590. Peace be upon you both (all), Arsalan and Fedup (Passerby, Cryptonym…).

    And here, we are told in sonorous tones that the ‘z’ in Ramazan is “an attack on all Muslims”. Naturally! Not only is ‘Z’ is for Zion and Zebedee, and “ziofuckwit”, it’s also Persian, for Khuda’s sake, and so really doesn’t fit the party line.

    “And which end of the egg do you crack open every morning?” Dr Gulliver asked the Islamist.

    “The Muslim end,” replies Anjem C, as he digs into his honeypot and pulls out a piece of albumen whose shape miraculously spells the Holy Name of The Security Service.

    Peace be upon you both.

  591. And here, we are told in sonorous tones that the ‘z’ in Ramazan is “an attack on all Muslims”. Naturally! Not only is ‘Z’ is for Zion and Zebedee, and “ziofuckwit”, it’s also Persian, for Khuda’s sake, and so really doesn’t fit the party line.

    What are you smoking mate? Pass the bung to the next guy along, this shit isn’t doing your comments any good! :)

    There are four “Z” and differing pronunciations there of in Arabic, and it is not Ramadan but Ramadzan (but here in UK it has come to be D), however the variances in dialects could also pronounce it RamaZan, However what has this got to do with the rest of the shit you have gone on about?

    albumen whose shape miraculously spells the Holy Name of The Security Service.

    The reliquary that yields this sort of relics is a Christian and Hindu precept, but which secret service are we talking about? Prism, GCHQ, NAS,ISI, there are so many of these bastards and you playing twenty questions is not helping, it is late at night.

    However what any of this crap has to do with our lines of debate?

  592. “The Muslim end,” replies Anjem C, as he digs into his honeypot and pulls out a piece of albumen whose shape miraculously spells the Holy Name of The Security Service.

    I tend to agree with you. It is late and I have just “Oh I get it now!” (Short Circuit). It was a bit cryptic.

    Peace be upon you too!

  593. I cant’t believe that the hostility levelled against Suhayl on this thread is soley for his use of the term ‘Islamist’ or for expressing preference for secularism or Western culture.

    Something else is at play. What is it?

  594. Jemand – Censorship Improves History

    Me and SS used to get on quite well before this thread. You can read older threads, and I think he would admit it if you ask him.

    Maybe when other issues are discussed we would be on the same side again.

    But you are right, it isn’t just about the term “Islam-ist”, which I find dishonest and racist.
    It is also to do with the generisations he is using on this thread. I have never seen him do that before.
    Drol, thought something in me has changed recently to make me attack him in that way.
    I would say, something in him has changed.

    The examples he gives are of a Muslim somewhere some how doing something that he says is bad. And then using it to say, all of what he calls Islamists are bad.
    Please explain to me how that is different from some racist saying all blacks are bad because obama is black and he has done some bad things.

    If his attacks on the brotherhood were actually to do with their own policies. Even if I disagreed with him, I would be ok with him saying that. But most probably I might have agreed with him. Because they do have many policies I disagree with. There is no one, no group that I agree with 100%, whether they are what he calls Islamists or not.
    As a Muslim I believe Allah is perfect, the rest of us are not, including Muslims.
    What I disagreed with most was his use of organisations that have no connection at all with the brotherhood. People in different countries, with very different idiologies and policies.
    And then he goes, they are all Islamist.
    On this thread he has been acting like the BNP and the racists in this government who blame Muslims here for the actions of any Muslim anywhere on the planet.
    Just like what the tabloids did here. When some Paki cab drivers fiddled with some girls in places up north that I have never heard of.
    It was some how stated that Islam was to blame. When they were cab drivers not leaders of mosques like the pedo prists. Their brown skin and strange names meant it was an Islamic crime. While segregation areas of British prisons are packed with whites with white names, whose crimes are their own. Not shared by others of their race who didn’t do it. Not shared by others of their religion who didn’t take part. Their religion was not even mentioned. People didn’t even try to guess their religion by their names and skin colour. Because it had no baring on their crimes.
    But, the fact that SS says some Saudi guys, come here and sees call girls means what he calls Islam’ism is to blame.
    And this has ramifications on my desire to reverse sykes picot carve up of the middle east, and it means the coup against the Muslim brotherhood win was a good thing.
    Has he interviewed any of them to find out if they are in any of what he calls Islamist groups they belong to?
    Or does he even know whether they even pray, fast and pay charity?
    Does he even know whether or not they are Muslim.
    I mean, if a white british person goes to a prostitute, it is never a case of a Christianity and Prostitution. The way SS says Muslims ruling by Islam is done because Muslims want more call girls just cause he says that is what some Saudis do here?
    I call him a racist because that is how racists themselves make judgements.

    My attack on him has nothing to do with his religious beliefs or his politics. He has always made his religious thoughts and politic beliefs here very clear.
    I have always known he was a secularist. He made his views on Islamic rules he idsagreed with very clear. But with differed on them with respect.
    And up till this thread, I have always thought we have got along.
    My attacks on him was because of his racism.
    That is what has changed.
    He has never used to racist arguments he is doing now.
    This is the verse time I have seen him do that. and this thread is the first time I have attacked him in this way.

    Anyway, it is ramadhan. And half of it has ended. I should be using it to worshiping and not posting on threads here. I have said it before. I will be stricter with myself now. Bye. I might be back after eid.

  595. Re racial prejudice, racism, prejudice etc

    It is natural and important for animals, including humans, to have an instinctive faculty of inductive reasoning – not formal, but natural. This faculty assists animals to adapt to their changing, complex environment. An animal will sense relationships between observations and subsequent events/outcomes with the beneficial effect of allowing it to avoid threats and pursue opportunities for survival.

    It doesn’t matter what that relationship is, complex or simple, causal or associative. It’s fuzzy logic at work.

    Now, it is a common, if faulty, response to observing something (someone) different and seeing a particular outcome and then drawing a conclusion that there is a relationship from which one induces a rule that can be applied to other situations sharing similar particulars. This psychological behaviour is observable in people and animals that are prone to superstition (ie faulty inductive reasoning).

    And there is a long standing argument against prejudice (esp. racial prejudice) that says you cannot/shouldn’t induce generalised rules about people sharing a common attribute based on single or limited observations. That’s more or less correct when there is no cost involved, but does not serve any benefit when the stakes are high – eg survival. 

    Therefore, most animals are born with a primary prejudice – if something is unknown, it is dangerous, unless otherwise later observed to be safe or beneficial – or, if it doesn’t smell like food, it probably sees you as food. Cats aren’t very good at observing this rule, hence ‘curiosity killed the cat’.

    Animals will instinctively be shy, skittish and difficult to approach because there is no value in staying around to learn if it is going to be eaten or not. The benefit of the doubt, therefore, falls on the side of a negative judgement. Why would it be any different for the human animal?

    So conclusions based on very small sets of observations might be risky but not necessarily invalid. Better safe than sorry, eh?

    In regard to Islamic influences on human behaviour, the question should be asked – Is there a relationship between the principles of Islam or culture of Muslims and the violence and destruction that we observe in the world today?

    Observing one Muslim or Christian commit a crime is not sufficient to draw conclusions about Muslims or Christians. But there are plenty – hundreds – of examples of crimes in which we can identify patterns.

    One is the overwhelming fact that most violent crime is committed by males between the ages of late teens and thirties. Do we see many 65yo women throwing Molotov cocktails in violent demonstrations, committing violent sexual assaults or bashing and robbing others? No. Why do you think that is?

    We see lots of Chinese running restaurants, little corner stores and mobile phone kiosks but not so many playing cricket, singing heavy metal or going to the pub and getting drunk. Why is that?

    Would I be wrong to make the observation that males commit violent crimes and Chinese run small businesses? How many exceptions break the rule? One? Two?

    I see a lot of conflict in the Muslim world – between Muslims, between Muslims and non-Muslims. And I see a lot of conflict between Muslims and non-Muslims in the non-Muslim world.

    Is there no relationship between Muslims/Islam and the many incidents of unrest and violence in many parts of the world?

    I think there is. I think that unrest is a result of conflict between people who wish to affirm, defend or spread the influence of Islamic principles in rivalry with non-Islamic principles (other religions, secularism, etc).

    To observe that as a fact (if, indeed, it is a fact) is not racist, it’s perfectly correct.

  596. technicolour

    23 Jul, 2013 - 5:32 pm

    well, well, what a thread.

    Arsalan, good to see you again. I think maybe neither you or Suhayl changed, just the climate around you.

    Suhayl seems to be objecting strongly to murder, torture and repression carried out by people in the name of Islam. I know that this is often sponsored by ‘being bombed back to the Stone Age’ and in dollars, but are you sure you disagree?

    (I’m not sure about this word ‘Islamist’ actually, since people can easily conflate it with ‘Muslim’; I tend to use ‘insane extremist’ of which most ideologies possess a few, poor souls).

    Otherwise I was interested to read your view on Eqypt: wish I was there to dig some more. I’m pretty sure Morsi crossed several lines, which made the electorate rise up, but will go and look. What you know about Somalia fits with what I know btw.

    Agree that it is rotten for Muslim men to be forced not to wear a beard of course: would be interested to know if you think they should be forced *to* wear a beard? Because if so we know we are coming from v different views.

    I think it’s understandable to be upset when the failings of insane extremists are pointed out, and only Islamic extremists are mentioned, because it does play straight into the hands of people like Karimov and also statements like this:

    “Is there no relationship between Muslims/Islam and the many incidents of unrest and violence in many parts of the world?….I think there is. I think that unrest is a result of conflict between people who wish to affirm, defend or spread the influence of Islamic principles in rivalry with non-Islamic principles (other religions, secularism, etc).”

    To which of course there are so many replies that they have occupied whole blog pages, as Jemand well knows (last refutation culminating in the example of Malaysia)

    Suhayl was pointing out that nothing flourishes in a climate of fear and oppression. The most repressive version of Islam available is of course analagous to ‘Christians’ who insanely quote the nastier bits of Leviticus. Or Friedmanites, in economic ideology.

    Think calling him names v odd, v childish! He is not exactly singing the current state’s praises, is he? I think you have just missed seeing that his points are part of a picture.

  597. The arse about tit “observations” with a preface of bollocksology to make it sound scientifically accepted bollocks!!! Have wasted my time reading the oodles of nonsense and crap.

    Should have skipped reading the long diatribe that delivered the same shitty prejudice; I see, and decide!! Fact that seeing itself is based on flawed parameters, not being entertained, but hey when talking bollocks there is no ceiling, and bollocks can stack up to reach the heavens itself.

    Throughout this thread the most glaring point that has not bee acknowledged (I have been waiting for the slightest hint of reappraisal of the prejudicial stances) has been the unsubstantiated assertions; I am an “Islam-ist” that has shaped the ebb and flow of the debate.

    However upon declaration of my none religiousness, post a vicious attack on me for being an anti-s… and an Armageddon merchant, there has been further posts disregarding the fact that I am not religious (I am religious “fundamentalist Muslim” who lies through his fucking teeth apparently), and carrying on the thrust of their assertions, and denunciations unabated.

    These type of transactions are befitting fishwives, and ought not be undertaken by the so called “intellectuals” whom have engaged in asserting their assumptions and following these with their customary denunciations. However, what has sense to do with this debate, or any other debate concerning the inalienable right of people to self-determination?

    Fact that anyone mildly intelligent can adduce the bollocks of “animals being skittish” to be unrelated to “human beings”, that qualifies as to sixty year old men not committing sex crimes. Overlooking the fact that, the said sixty year old men, only can use their addendum/used to be penis for urination, and at most reminisce on an erection that befell their limp addendum once back in 1945 August 6 half past eight in the morning!

    This is the fucking state of debate, conflating of bollocks and defending the said conflated bollocks with resultant wisdom of bollocks, all the while not aware that; could any of this crapfest have anything to do with their rights that is being defended? Hey if these blind bastards could somehow by some fucking miracle discern that, they would not be in the world of shit that they have found themselves in then.

  598. I know exactly what his points are. Calling him a races was a statement of fact. It wasn’t name calling.

  599. Thanks, Technicolour and Jemand.

    “This is the fucking state of debate, conflating of bollocks and defending the said conflated bollocks with resultant wisdom of bollocks, all the while not aware that; could any of this crapfest have anything to do with their rights that is being defended?” Fedup.

    Sounds like you’re describing an agricultural show in Hereford! Bucolic, indeed. In the world of cow pats and hurricanes, we are but butterflies.

    Take it easy, Arsalan and Fedup.

    Listen to the cosmos. Be Middle C. Laugh, smile, pray. Be.

  600. The Muslim population is about 25% of the world. 57 countries are members of the OIC. Other then Muslim majority countries there are large Muslim minorities and many other countries.

    Do people like you and him see WW2 as a christian conflict, between Christians and themselves.
    How about Conflicts in latin America are they seen as Christians killing each other?
    America has had a conlict each and every year since it was created. How many of them are seen as christian conflicts?

    So, yes, it is racism.
    In the same way crimes are seen as black on black when blacks are involved but never white on white when whites are involved.

    Tec
    Millitry coup means millitry coup. It doesnt mean the people went against him. It just meant the army that ruled before the coup, rules again now.
    But to be honest. I believe the army never left power.
    During the few months morsi alegedly rules, all the parts of the state continued taking orders from the army.
    He just gave the orders, everyone who worked for the state ignored them and did business as usual. Until the army said, ok, you have had your turn. Now we are taking back the state.

    I am not surprised, when western governments support the army after an election.
    They did this in Algeria, Palestine, Turkey, Mali, and some other places,
    Well any place where people win an election, if it is a Muslim country. They say Islamists, and support a coup.
    Just as in the past in latin America after a election they would say communists and support a coup.

    In short the will of the people is what ever Israel and America says it is.

  601. technicolour, thanks – good to see you here.

    (I’m not sure about this word ‘Islamist’ actually, since people can easily conflate it with ‘Muslim’; I tend to use ‘insane extremist’ of which most ideologies possess a few, poor souls).

    I agree with the sentiment. I’ve been using the word a fair bit in this thread, though I asked several times what word we might use instead, and answer came there none. I acknowledged the term’s capacity for propaganda, and noted that I would be disinclined to use it in the MSM for fear of accidentally contributing to reactionary narratives about Islam.

    That said, Arsalan did make the point that you can’t “pick and choose” what Islam is – i.e. it is all or nothing. I should think that view is widely contested, of course, but certainly in this case, the word “Islamism” is redundant, since to at least one person, “Islam” is precisely the same thing. Mandatory beards, veils, religious courts, the abandonment of democratic institutions, and the locking down of a regime that incrementally doesn’t wish to cede power under any circumstances. The irony of using democracy to shut democracy down was mentioned at the start of the discussion.

    I’m pretty sure Morsi crossed several lines, which made the electorate rise up, but will go and look.

    This is key, I think – Arsalan’s strong view is that the electorate have not risen up against Morsi, or at least not in sufficient numbers to be able to call it a legitimate popular revolution. Morsi was voted in by the people only a year ago, so Arsalan is unconvinced that they might wish to be rid of him a year later.

    From the little I understand of Egypt, I think there is broad appetite for a secular government that is Islamic in nature, rather than Islamist (i.e. closing down the nascent democratic apparatus and instituting Sharia courts in its place). I know Juan Cole isn’t to everyone’s tastes here – but I do think his posts might shed some light on that. If anyone is aware of useful articles about the reasons for the second revolution, please post.

  602. Here’s an item from the US press and here’s a selection of views from members of the public. This Wikipedia article is also of interest.

    This blog post is skeptical of the claimed attendance to the anti-government rallies, and suggests it was less than 2M people. Quite how many you need in a nation of 84M people to legitimise a peaceful revolution is hugely debatable, of course.

  603. technicolour

    23 Jul, 2013 - 8:58 pm

    Jon, yes, have just looked at implied claims that this was a military operation designed to flush out the Muslim Brotherhood. Is this a minority forcing havoc onto a peaceful majority (which happens) or is this a humanitarian uprising of people in the middle against the extremism at both ends?

    Turkey, from the news on the ground, seemed (seems. does anyone know what’s happening there?) very much the latter. Report after report acclaimed the peaceful solidarity of all the protesters; whether they were kemalist, muslim, atheist, green, hippy, grandmothers, doctors, or what. Egypt seems to be more of a population divided, from what I gather, but I don’t know anyone in Egypt.

    Found this report which left me more informed but equally confused:

    http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/77185/Egypt/Politics-/Muslim-Brotherhood,-Police-blamed-for-Egypts-escal.aspx

    - and the Christian Science Monitor. The headline says ‘Muslim Brotherhood Scoffs at Reconciliation’ (surely that should be ‘Scoff’) but the reality of the piece itself is this:

    “Brotherhood leaders say they will continue to protest until Morsi is reinstated – even if only long enough to call early presidential elections. Until then, they will not recognize or participate in the political process, they insist.

    “Our long term strategy is patience. We are not in a hurry,” says Amr Darrag, a senior Brotherhood member and a minister in Morsi’s government. “What else can we do? Do we wait till we are all put in jail and our parties are shut down and we are completely removed from political life?”

    csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2013/0723/Egypt-s-Muslim-Brotherhood-scoffs-at-reconciliation

    So Arsalan’s analysis is shared by the CSM :)

  604. Arsalan,

    (From the other thread, it seems more appropriate to reply here)

    You were the one being the racist. And like a typical Zionist, when you are accused of being racist, you accuse the accuser.

    Isn’t this approach part of the problem? I unreservedly condemn Israel’s cruelty, and its disregard for international law. I am not in favour of Israeli expansionism even slightly. Since Zionism is essentially a biblical justification for that imperialism, it should also help you to know that I am not religious. So, is “Zionist” an appropriate label for me, given that I reject all of the principles and beliefs it is based upon?

    I don’t know what your race is, I don’t want to know. No one wants to know. No one said any racist insults against you at all.

    I referred to your responses as racist, since you were flinging the n-word around despite not being, I think, a person of colour yourself. That is extremely thin ice here, as you know.

    What happened is you said some racist things, and we called you a racist. If you don’t want to be called a racist, stop being one.

    Well, I appreciate that is your view, but it doesn’t correlate at all with what I said.

    If I can encourage you to engage more with what people are saying, that would be a great asset to discussions like this. We agree on more than we disagree, I think, about the nature of imperialism and Western hypocrisy. Again, I am not your enemy here, even though you treat me like one. Again, I am just trying to show that not everyone expressing concern about religious governance is a US stooge.

  605. An article from Juan Cole – he posts so prolifically I had to do quite a bit of clicking! I think this is instructive. Oh yes, and the Wikipedia article I linked to earlier says that the new government promises elections.

    http://www.juancole.com/2013/07/fundamentalist-protesters-ultimatum.html

    I found this particularly confusing:

    Morsi’s misrepresentation of Obama will inflame anti-American opinion further in Egypt, where the opposition generally believes that the US is imposing the Muslim Brotherhood on Egypt for its own nefarious reasons. This impression has been fanned by statements of US ambassador Anne Patterson discouraging the youth from holding the June 30 protest and supporting the elected president. In fact, the US as a status quo power typically deals with the elected government in power.

    I suppose the US could want stability for greater geopolitical reasons (more certainty around the relationship with Israel for example). But I thought Islamic religious governance was a red line for the American deep state, and that Obama’s administration would faithfully reflect that view. Hmmm.

  606. Thinking about it, if the second revolution is backed by the student and left movements, perhaps the US view is that moderate Islamic governance is better than a socialist one? Either way, Cole’s article does make it seem like Morsi has overplayed his hand, especially with the decree stuff.

  607. technicolour

    23 Jul, 2013 - 9:44 pm

    thanks for the piece, Jon, – don’t think the US mind extremists all that much – they keep funding them everywhere. Liked this from that piece too:

    “The youth groups spent the months from February 2011 through August of 2012 demonstrating and demanding that the military go back to the barracks. Their insistence that Morsi call early presidential elections was not intended as an invitation to the army to come back into politics”

    Yeay, youth.

  608. technicolour

    23 Jul, 2013 - 9:45 pm

    well, yes, apart from socialists.

  609. Does anyone know anyone in Egypt?

  610. The US can say what they want about believing in democracy. But what they did do was sent the army f16s in reward for the coup.
    What they didn’t do was call what the army did a coup.
    Because according to US law they can’t fund governments that took power with a coup.
    Solution is simple, just don’t call it a coup. And Obama refused to call it such.
    America does the same with torture, they torture, but they just don;t call it that. And that makes it OK.

    The leftist are falling over themselves with double speech. They claim to believe in democracy. But they also hate Islam. So they say, The Millitry coup was the will of the people!
    LOL
    Liars and hypcrits.

    And I have as much right to use any words I want as anyone else.
    That includes using the word concentration camp to describe Gaza, the word Nigger to discribe how some of you use the word Paki.
    To say these words only beling to some people of some races and religions is the racism.
    :)

  611. That includes using the word concentration camp to describe Gaza, the word Nigger to discribe how some of you use the word Paki.

    You’re the only one using unpleasant racial epithets, Arsalan – check the rest of this thread. I don’t know why you persist in using them when you know they discredit your views so greatly.

    The leftist are falling over themselves with double speech. They claim to believe in democracy. But they also hate Islam.

    I’m sure it’s more complicated than “all left-leaning Egyptians hate Islam” – a good many of them are Islamic themselves. But, of the ones that (peacefully) hate Islam/Christianity/Scientology/Pastafarianism, they should be permitted to do so, right?

    So they say, The Millitry coup was the will of the people!

    The Cole article makes it seem that they are not saying that. They may be saying that the downfall of Morsi was the will of the people, but they are also opposed to the army taking power. These things are complicated – can you not shown some nuance?

    What did you make of the article that suggested that the figures attending the “second revolution” were overstated? Do you have any views on whether Morsi’s decree was undemocratic? I don’t know a lot about the latter, but it seems to be significant in the reasons for the anti-government protests?

  612. Jemand,

    Is there no relationship between Muslims/Islam and the many incidents of unrest and violence in many parts of the world?

    I think it is too complicated to say, in all honesty. If the dominant world power was nominally a Muslim country (in the same way that, despite its fundamentalism, America’s religion is capitalism rather than Christianity) then would secular-Muslim liberals pontificate about the relationship between Christianity and terrorism?

    In other words, violence that is committed in the name of Islam may be a coincidence of sorts – it is just that the primary targets of US imperialism (and the location of many energy resources, by coincidence) is the Middle East, where by dint of fate, Islam is widely practiced.

    Indeed, where “Islamic terrorism” occurs, how Islamic is it? I held my nose the other day to explore the Twitter feed of one of the EDL branches, and in particular their image gallery. Amongst their racist doodlings was an image of several alleged Islamic terrorists around the world, with the caption “Islamic terrorists available in every colour”. Dreadful sentiment aside, it illustrated an important point, rather lost on the artist: that Islam becomes a target for hatred, and a terrorist event becomes motivated by Islam, by virtue of the extremist involved attaching themselves to Islam.

    And here is a major flaw in the treatment of this subject. If an extremist professing Islam wishes to stand in court, after his capture, to denounce Western evils, the MSM would be falling over themselves to condemn “giving him a platform”. In their view, whatever he says will be a lie, especially if he makes (testable) statements about Western imperialism.

    But, on his attachment to the Islamic faith, there is no question in the minds of mainstream scribes that he is telling the truth. This is accepted without discussion. Well, nearly without discussion, anyway: when the young soldier was murdered earlier in the year, early stories described an attacker of “Muslim appearance”. The BBC later apologised, acknowledging that the suspects in question would have better been described as of African descent (I am quite prepared to believe this was subconscious theorising rather than malicious interference with reportage, but even that is telling). This did generate some belated conversation in the mainstream about subconscious racist influences.

    For reasons I can’t remember, this morning I was wondering about racial profiling. As the system stands, you are right that there are likely to be more disaffected Muslims in Britain than there are Christians. On that basis, would I support targetted racial profiling at British airports as a matter of policy?

    I think the answer is that I would not. The first reason is that if outrage held by Muslims results from British/American foreign policy, then their outrage is justified, even though any acts of non-state violence flowing from that are not. The second reason I’ve already outlined – that the outrage is held by Muslims is a result of imperialism’s death toll falling primarily on Muslims – it is just fortunate for the Christians, a stroke of fate, that they are not in the same position.

    I wondered as well that, if racial profiling is instituted, does this not set up a racist feedback loop? That is that, as the gentle weight of paternal state repression is increasingly felt by Muslims, the state may become progressively more discriminatory, perhaps at the level of each individual enforcer of that policy. Furthermore, the targets of that repression may respond with anger or resentment, “proving” to the architects of the system that it is increasingly necessary.

  613. Steady on Jon, you are making me hopeful, and less Fedup! Good points raised @ 23:23

  614. Fedup – I should be pleased if you would consider how those views are entirely compatible with my earlier comments! They come from the same moderate socialist-atheist analysis, I think.

    I’ll be interested in Jemand’s thoughts too. He and I probably have much agreement about atheism and the malign influence of religion, but I do think it is possible to swing too hard, and to clamp down on specific religions in ways that are discriminatory.

  615. I do think it is possible to swing too hard, and to clamp down on specific religions in ways that are discriminatory.

    Now that is a “grown up”, “mature” sentiment, too often a theists forget that dogma cannot be fought with dogma! This particular facet blinds most atheists to the simple fact; some people need the certainty that religion can afford them, and without their religion they cannot live a fruitful and contended life.

    Too often these religious people are the target of the; a theists whom find the constraints of any religion unacceptable to them. Their solipsist mode of thought however dose not allow these a theists to understand; relegion is a matter of personal choice! The first fucking tenet of respect and understanding is to accept that others have rights too.

    Too often the matter of course prejudices and assumptions thereof get in the way of seeing the wood for the trees. I understand where you come from, and I don’t want to condescend upon you by saying you don’t understand where I am coming form! We both wish to bring about a better world, the question is how?

  616. Fedup, you might or might not be religious since we cannot known anything with certainty about you or anyone else on this blog *except* that it is absolutely certain that you’re an obnoxious crackpot who parades his own brand of intellectual pretensions with no sense of irony. If you are not an Islamist, then you are without doubt an apologist of Islamists.

    Regarding dogma, is it really dogmatic to reject the existence of the Easter Bunny and its cultural manifestations?

  617. Jon, thanks for your participation on this thread.

    What I (probably unsuccessfully) attempted to explain in my long post above, is my thoughts on the natural origins of prejudice, defending valid prejudice and identifying invalid prejudice. The standard criticism of prejudice is that it is willful, always invalid, hostile and morally bad. This appears to be the same ignorant stand that some people have on the emotions of anger and hatred. I don’t think there is any prospect of managing problems arising from prejudice, anger and hatred with such an ignorant approach to animal psychology. (not accusing you of this)

    The relationship between Islam and violent incidents is, I agree, very complicated not the least because of the convergence of many issues – religious, political, economic, ethnic, cultural, personal etc. But I also think that amidst the noise, patterns can be identified. For example, when we observe violent incidents, it is overwhelmingly clear that males often instigate and mostly drive these incidents until they are extinguished. Certainly, the issues are complicated but the observable fact that males are at the centre of these incidents 99% of the time demonstrates that some factors, or combination of factors, stand out despite the confluence of aggravating factors.

    Consider the perennial issue of gun violence. Do guns kill people or people kill people? I think guns + people kill people. Whenever we witness an American massacre, several factors stand out. Of course, other factors influence what transpires but it’s not hard to see a pattern emerge. Should we not look at the role of civilian access to firearms? The psychological development of teenagers? The psychology of males? American culture? I think these are all relevent and factor into an observable pattern to the extent that we can predict problems when these factors converge.

    And it is the same with ideas. Ideas + people lead to [something].

    { INTERMISSION }

    So if we deconstruct a so-called ‘terrorist’ incident involving a 20 year old male suicide bomber who is Muslim, a diabetic, from a broken home where the father was abusive, got good marks at school, etc.. When we try to make sense of the incident, looking for factors that have a probabilistic influence on its development, we suspect that some factors are more significant than others. What is the significance of being male versus being a diabetic? What is the significance of intelligence versus being physically abused? Is being a Muslim significant?

    From a single or limited set of observations, as I stated above, it is risky to draw conclusions. We can’t exactly experiment, but we can develop hypotheses and continue to make observations to identify significant factors and patterns. Are there sufficient observable incidents to examine the role of Islamic principles as a significant factor in social and political violence?

    In identifying a problematic attribute, we need to also identify how intrinsically it is attached to or associated with other attributes. Something that is identified as a problem often needs to be enabled by attachment to something else that is not a problem. It is arguable, therefore, that a ‘problematic attribute’ is actually THE problem if it needs other attributes to be enabled. For example, psychopathology is considered a problem (by definition). But it doesn’t exist in a vacuum, it exists in an otherwise functional person in whose behaviour it manifests itself. If you add hypersexuality to the mix, you might have a rapist. If you add paranoia, you might get a rapist and murderer. But if he loses his legs in a car accident, he probably won’t be a rapist murderer any more. What do you think are the most significant factors in this man being a rapist murderer? His legs?

    I think there is enough material that can be analysed to lead us to make reasonable hypotheses regarding the role that religion, in particular Islam, has in contemporary and historical incidents of violence. Was Islam *not* a factor in the Woolwich murder?

    There are many other issues at play. Human rights of freedom of speech, association, pursuit of happiness. And racial or cultural profiling with other security measures can aggravate problems and diminish the intended effectiveness of solutions.

    But let’s not conflate or confuse these many factors with each other. Let’s separate and analyse them for their probablistic significance.

  618. Jon,

    I posted a question for you on the previous page. It was regarding how to judge religions as violent or not. If you have the time to respond, please do.

    In considering your response, please consider the following.

    Violence in sports is an ongoing issue – boxing, probably being the most controversial sport in this regard. Soccer and cricket barely ever receive attention with regard to incidents of violence and might be regarded as non-violent sports. Not surprising really since they are mostly non-contact sports.

    But Rugby and Australian Rules Football are often cited for regular violent incidents. Despite the fact that the rules clearly do not permit and indeed forbid violent behaviour with players being fined and banned for offences, they contine to produce violent incidents. Fractured jaws and ribs; punching teeth out; king hits resulting in hospitalisation and even death after a full-body pounding, are some of the results of playing these sports. It’s no surprise then that they are considered violent sports.

    Interestingly, I think there are more incidents of violence among soccer spectators and tourists than among the players. But that’s a side note.

    We see violence also associated with ideas and communities of people who share the same ideas. Some religions emphasise the need to avoid violence and exercise patience, others appear to advocate violence as a solution. What kind of objective criteria can we use to identify the extent to which a religion is violent or predisposed (primed) to violence?

    I don’t want to pre-empt your reply, but I’ll throw some terms in to stimulate some ideas.

    * Edicts of formal texts of the religion – do they incite or quell violence?

    * Competing interpretations of texts – do ideas get intentionally distorted?

    * Instructions from religious leaders – do they incite antipathy towards others?

    * Behaviour of adherents – to what extent is their behaviour personal, crowd related or instructed?

    * Compatibility (tolerance) with other religions – are they too intolerant to avoid violent confrontations? Is it one-sided or mixed? To what extent?

    * Is the violence internal, external or both? 

    * Is violence highly dependent on or sensitive to specific conditions, eg. Pictorial depiction of Prophet Mohammed?

    * Is the potential violence latent but prone to amplification or easy excitement?

  619. Jon

    What left leaning egyptians?
    Are you forgeting more the 80% of egyptians voted for Islamic parties in the upper house election?
    So what sort of numbers of egyptians are you talking about remembering about 10% of Egyptians are Christian?

    What sort of lefts are they when they are supporting millitry dictatorship? All the opposition being arrested for winning?

    Well, by Islamic, if you mean the Islam acceptable to you. The type you describe as non Islamist. Remembering you gave an example of such by linking to a Qadyani website.
    A Sect founded by the BRitish in India. An organisation which gave british Imperialism in India there full support. A sect that is not recognised as being Muslim by all sects and schools of thought within Islam. Not just that, but that sect has split in to two and both halves accuse the other of being non-Muslim.

    Is that the Islam you say is practiced by the people who support the coup. I think it is an dishonest to call such people leftists?
    Well, maybe your right.

  620. “They may be saying that the downfall of Morsi was the will of the people, but they are also opposed to the army taking power. These things are complicated – can you not show some nuance?” Jon.

    “What sort of lefts are they when they are supporting millitry dictatorship?” Arsalan.

    Nuance? Clearly, the concept of nuance is alien.

    Okay, here is a possible view with minimal requirement for nunace:

    The people voted the MB in. The MB did not address the key economci problems and were oppressing the people. The people rose up en masse. The army deployed a coup to stop the people from taking power.

    Mubarak’s polce state, the army and the MB all have proved that they cannot serve the interests of the Egyptian people and that overall, they have no interest in doing so, and this is because in all cases, their primary goal is enhancing their own power (in the case of the army/police/Mubarak, and/or wealth) and (wrt the MB) that of their ideological control of the state and of civil society to the exclusion of all other nodes of potential power.

  621. And as often is the case, the IMF bears a significant portion of responsibility for the current situation in Egypt. It is a hoodlum organisation and in my opinion, should be dismantled, along with the current configuration of the banking system. Of course, that will not happen. But if ever country subjected to the IMF’s economic warfare simultaneously did an Argentina…

  622. Suhaly Saadi said:

    The people voted the MB in. The MB did not address the key economci problems and were oppressing the people. The people rose up en masse. The army deployed a coup to stop the people from taking power.

    To deliver, there is a need for a coordinated and concious effort across all the government departments, as well as help of the economic movers and shakers intent to solve the endemic problems faced by the target population. This factor cannot be denied, or for the matter argued against.

    To foment dissatisfaction is an all too easy enterprise, given the power structure map, and economic choke points. The coup in Egypt was a text book exercise; Coup D’Etat: A Practical Handbook by by E Luttwak.

    Luttwack being one of the notable neocons, who was shouting the world would end if DPRK got The Bomb, and after DPRK detonated their nuclear weapon, was seen on the TV circuit arguing; a massive device sitting in a shed in North Korea is of no threat value, and is inconsequential.

    A review of the book By A Customer:

    Do you ever feel the urge to take over a small country and do horrible things to its downtrodden inhabitants? If so then this could be the book for you. Coup d’etat excells as a step by step guide through the intricacies of recruiting conspirators, neutralising security forces and keeping loyal members of the military at arms length. You have identified a suitable target country, recruited some cronies and overthrown the government. What now? Never fear! there is even an appendix discussing the ‘economics of repression’ to help determine the optimum balance between propaganda and hypertaxation. Simply brilliant.

    This of course has no bearing on the debate, because we all know that “Muslims” really don’t have a clue about anything included; the concept of nuance is alien.

  623. These dead Egyptians would have wanted to go this way

    Violent clashes between the supporters and opponents of ousted Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi continue in Cairo, with the death toll rising as a result.

    Since Monday, at least 14 people have been killed in the unrelenting clashes between Morsi’s fans and his opponents.

    Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood said on Wednesday that plainclothesmen fired on pro-Morsi demonstrators in Cairo, killing two people.

    However the death toll is not enough for General Abdel-Fattah al-Sisi :

    “Please, shoulder your responsibility with me, your army, and the police and show your size and steadfastness in the face of what is going on,”

    The killings to follow in the name of “democracy”, and “secularism” is as yet not understood and when it happens, the examination in minutia will not yield much for those whom verily believe Egyptians lot will be better under the new management!

    The fact that there is a right mess of a breakfast foule in Cairo, evidently has not sunk in yet here. BTW if you don’t know what is “foule”, it means you have no idea about Egypt, and in all probability you an’t tell the difference between a fava bean from a fart, on matters concerning Egypt. However this should not stand in the way of approval of the coup that has set Egypt on its way towards a “secular democracy”!

    If the developments in Egypt were not so ghastly and disturbing, the debate here would have made a heck of a comedy sketch!

  624. “This of course has no bearing on the debate, because we all know that “Muslims” really don’t have a clue about anything included; the concept of nuance is alien.” Fedup (or was it Passerby?).

    This clearly refers to Arsalan, as Jon was addressing Arsalan in his request for nuance. But you and Arsalan both seem to conflate yourselves with ‘all Muslims’.

    Well, I am Muslim and I do not agree with your political stances. But I do not pretend that I exemplify or represent all Muslims. Therefore, when people disagree with me on this or that, as they often do, I do not hide behind the last refugee of crying, “Mother, he’s attacking all Muslims because he’s critiquing my views! Mother! He must be racist!”

    This is merely another example of the unwillingness of those who espouse or support Islamism to brook any dissent.

  625. Fedup, you might or might not be religious since we cannot known anything with certainty about you or anyone else on this blog *except* that it is absolutely certain that you’re an obnoxious crackpot who parades his own brand of intellectual pretensions with no sense of irony. If you are not an Islamist, then you are without doubt an apologist of Islamists.

    Wheehhheeey might or might not, [ie you (I) could be lying through your (my) teeth, to us all. clearly those "Muzzies" are lying, cheating, dastardly bastards, and we cannot rust any of them.]

    Oh Mr. Darcy slap my thigh I am called obnoxious,….. Laddy my middle name is Obnoxious, and worse still I am your fucking worst nightmare, I am beyond your brand of a theism. I don’t need to attack other peoples belief to convince myself I am not religious.

    There is only one crackpot with a go faster stripes zimmerframe mate, and that is you. I have never had any pretensions of “Intellectualism” and no claims as to know all the answers, as you seem to be the only one who really know there is no Easter Bunny. Fuck me then where the chocolates come from?

    Your hatred of Muslims can be pretty well disguised through your a theistic cover, and you can have a license to pour your bile freely and at will, in a free fire fashion, and be respected for it too, in the peer group you seem to be ensconced. Further, anyone who calls you out, then you can string a whole lot of pejorative adjectives and end it with; you are without doubt an apologist of Islamists

    OK Sherlock, I am an apologist for Islam-ists, what the fuck that makes you to be, fucking witchfinder pursuivant?

    Your prejudices cannot or will not allow you to respect other peoples beliefs, will it?

    I don’t want to pre-empt your reply, but I’ll throw some terms in to stimulate some ideas.

    Jumped up prick, all the “questions” you have forwarded are devoid of the following:

    Which religious book gave instructions for the Atomic bomb?
    Which Fucking prophet brought the schematics for the trigger circuits for the Hydrogen Bombs?
    Which religion ordered the fire bombing of Tokyo, bombing of Hiroshima, Nagasaki?
    Which fucking bunch of Muslims ever invaded any of the Western countries that seem to be bent on the destruction of Muslims?

    Forgot, it was the oh so secular wankers who have been bombing the shit out of the Muslims from Karachi to Djibouti? That is depleted Uranium, killing them there and then and then carry on killing them for decades to come.

    You wax lyrical about the ills of Islam without ever mentioning Christian fucking fundies, or Jewish fucking fundies, but hey you are an a theist who only hates fucking “Muzzies” aren’t you? You racists little fuckwit.

  626. Suhayl Saadi

    24 Jul, 2013 – 1:34 pm

    You are being dishonist. The elections had just taken place a few months ago. In cases such as that it doesn’t mean people changed their mind. It wasn’t a case of the egyption population, 73% in the lower house election, more than 80% in the upper house election, saying, “Oh silly me, I ticked the wrong box”.
    I repeat to accuse the population of a country so bog of being so thick, is racism, plane and clear.

    What happened in Egypt is what happened in Algeria.
    There was an election and the side you don’t like won.
    Just as in Egypt now, people made excuse to support Millitry dictatorship while claiming to support democracy. In Algeria they said, “Some times we need to use undemeocratic means to support democracy” Quote from the leftist Guardian.
    And with egypt, “Yes well they changed their minds, how do we know they did, the army that took over told us they did”.

    Be honest, end the hypocrisy and admit, this is about people you don’t like ruling by something you don’t like.
    You and many others who claim to believe in democracy, just believe in their own superiority.
    But are too hypocritical to admit it.

    Suhayl Saadi
    You know why I called you a racist. Don’t pretend you don’t. the reasons were given each time I used that word to describe you.
    Your attacks were race based, they had no connection to policies or beliefs at all.
    I don’t want to go through them again. If you want to refute what I said about you, scrole up, and cut and past what I said and refute each reason why I gave for you being a racist. I can’t be bothered.
    You hypocrisy and dishonesty is clear. I am glad this thread was started.
    I always knew what your politics were and your religious beliefs. It was never a secret we disagreed on them. What I didn’t know was your dishonesty, arrogance and hypocrisy. I am glad you have made them clear to me now.
    If you want to know I believe you have these qualities, scrole up, I have already given the reasons.

    I think I have more respect for people like the Turkish general that said, “If all the people want Islamic government, I will kill everyone”, at least people like that are honest. People like you believe in exactly the same thing as them, but you lie, and pretend speak as if you represent a people you dispise.
    You have made it clear how you feel about people who you call Islamists. The elections have shown most of the population are those people you dispise. But instead of clearly stating your feelings, you come out with nonsense such as, “they have changed, now I support them in their take over”.
    When the people who have taken over are the same people that ruled under Mubarak, sadat and Nasir.

  627. Fedup, oh dear. Suhayl could not make it plainer, I think, that he is not attacking you, although he is well within his rights to assert that you are not engaging with the debate. But in losing your temper and resorting to abuse, do you not lose the debate automatically? How does it help your cause – the precise nature of which is not clear anyway – if you insult the people who you set out to persuade?

  628. you insult the people who you set out to persuade?

    Jon do you really believe that Jemand (as in “someone” in German) is open to any kind of persuasion? To be so myopic as he is and to believe all the ills of the world are based on religion when it is the godless bastards who are raining shit on those poor bastard whom have nothing other their god to hang onto, to go through the drudgeries of what they call life?

    Suhayl on the other hand is bit of a mixed-up soul. He claims to be a communist. Alas his kind of communist is the sort that Hradial Bains decries foul. Before the left is to become relevant, it should take the first step is; take off the ideological blinkers and let their minds absorb the human condition in the backwaters of the planet. Where life is a ghastly series of never ending drudgeries.

    Those souls stock in the middle of the steps of Afghanistan, or deserts of Pakistan with no access to medicine, potable water, proper food and nutrition, who have to travel two days for the nearest Doctor to see them. If these souls did not have their belief, how can they pull themselves out of their beds and start another day in the cold, or in the heat?

    Trouble with the armchair lefties is these have forgotten who their constituencies are? As Hardial Bains puts it; it is the taxi driver, the bus driver, the mechanic, the labourer who are the ones that need the communism, not the cloistered well fed and provided for middle-class!

    Suhayl claims to be one of the “Muslims” but then he exhibits a disconnect that is astounding. These people he condemns as “Islam-ists” a label that you rightly classify as racists and sectarian, then Suhayl validates his views by going on about the hookers in the knights bridge, and their clientèle of the rich sheikhs.

    As we debate the poor Saudi families are getting imprisoned and tortured because they have complained about their deplorable living conditions. The bloggers who have highlighted the terrible poverty of the quarter of the indigenous population are imprisoned for speaking out. These poor Muslims are not “Islam-ists” or any other “-ist” they are punters in search of a bellyful of food, and a roof over their heads, yet their leaders are the very same pederasts who are the regular visitors of the hookers in Paris and in Knights bridge. Whilst parading their brand of Wahhabism. These charge hands know who they should suck up to and who they should kick down.

    Suhayl blames the victims of these actors, and denounces anyone who will not agree with his narrow and impotent take on the Communism/left sensibilities.

    The fact is, which one of you has ever taken the trouble of getting to know the difficulties of these people living in the god forsaken places, and to feel the same weight of these difficulties on your shoulders, and then find; can you take the next step without the aid of the certainty of your god being with you?

    These people have nothing but their god to hang onto, and you want to deprive them from even that “luxury”?

  629. I don’t want this to turn in to a thread which is all about why I think what about who. What needed to be said was said, and then repeated over and over.
    I’m going to move on now.

    When it comes to the Egyptian left. I think they realised just how little support they had in Egypt. They had the option of remaining in obscurity. Or siding with the winning side. And the winning side is the side with the guns.

    This is exactly what happened to the Iraq left, when the Americans invaded.
    They choose to side with the invaders.

    RAND stated they will coopt leftest in a selective way to do this.
    This will not support leftest or help them take power. What they will do is make it clear to them they are in the same side with them against who rand defines as traditionalists and fundamentalists.

    I am not sure what planet leftests think they live in?
    Do they really think Baradi and general sisi will be leftists?

  630. Do they really think Baradi and general sisi will be leftists?

    They don’t know the situation in Egypt.

    Try and explain it to them. The idealogical divide, is compounding the misunderstanding.

  631. One day, Arsalan, you may emerge from your ideological dwam and when you do, I would like you please to remember this conversation.

    Fedup, I think it is deeply cynical of you to have egged on Arsalan in the manner you appear to have done on this thread.

    Both of you, what you are proposing is a form of Orientalism – a natvist, tribal ideology that actually is based on modern European concepts, rather than in Islam – and it has, and will continue to, ghettoise Muslims in this country, both internally and externally. Your political ideology has not done Muslim people – us – any favours, quite the opposite. It and Far Right racism, feed off one another, empower one another. Your views, to which you are fully entitled, are not shared by the majority of Muslim people in this country, or globally. I want to make clear, here, that you do not monopolise the discourse with power, with civic society, with matters pertaining to social class, economics or indeed religion.

    I fought racism and bigotry of all kinds on the street, among communities and on the page, long, long before you, Arsalan, was a Muslim. We speak with a clear voice and never again will we be silenced. And we really are millions.

  632. technicolour

    24 Jul, 2013 - 9:46 pm

    Arsalan, I don’t get it. Even if you are right about Egyptian voters, and Suhayl, despite his analysis of the IMF’s role, completely wrong, I don’t see how you can justify calling him a liar, a hypocrite and so on. If he were a liar and a hypocrite, he would be pretending to agree with you. Instead, he is advancing several reasons why your point of view is questionable. You have not mentioned the IMF, or the US sponsorship of the Brotherhood. Instead you’re calling him a racist and again, it’s not possible to see why.

    Fedup, thanks for your view of the poor masses. Again, I don’t see why pointing out the hypocrisy of their rulers is either racist, or anti-Muslim, or pro anything apart from a small measure of truth and reality. People, including rulers, do not, in my experience, benefit from being forced into narrow boxes. If they can, they will break out of them.

    Finally, I was the person suggesting that ‘Islamist’ was a shorthand for the lunatic fringe, not Suhayl. I was thinking of people like Hesb and Hekmatyar. Seems it can now, more widely, mean, someone who either believes in the Caliphate or not, but who supports sharia whatever? I’m still not going to use it but apologise if I skewed it too far.

  633. Both of you, what you are proposing is a form of Orientalism – a natvist, tribal ideology

    So you propose to enforce EU regulations and standards on Afghans and Pakistanis?

    The thrust of my argument has been; let them be, and let them find their own way out of the mess that we in the West have created for them. Have you just understood that and are set against it too?

    Your argument here is on two issues, the Muslims in this country, and the Muslims in their own lands, which one are you talking about mate?

    Finally why do you think am I egging on Arsalan?

    So far on this thread there has been not a great deal of understanding about the Egyptians and their sudden permitted experiment in democracy that subsequently has gone pear shaped and handed back to Generals.

  634. You know, what is strange is he claims to be a commi, and he says he supports the demonstrators. Even though the person in charge of the demos was Naguib Sawiris, the second riches man in egypt.
    lol
    he is a joke or just really very ignorant.

  635. Arsalan, if I may ask, what are you views on lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans-gender human beings?

  636. drat, Arsalan, please provide links instead of shouting? It’s news to me that the demonstrations are being led by a very rich person, for example. Link please!

    Just been looking a bit and the alternative truth is indeed that Morsi had turned his back on the IMF which is why he had to go:

    “Rather than seeking a deal with the IMF, Morsi turned to other Arab states for financial support. An EU source said that some in the interim administration are talking of resuming negotiations with the IMF, because they want Egypt’s credit status to be stabilised, as one signal that the country itself is becoming more stable.”

    http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/2013/july/eu-calls-for-morsi-s-release/77937.aspx

    This is all quite a bit of research which I have not much time for but which seems to me valuable, since it’s not really the main story. I’ve been away, Arsalan, and I am quite ignorant about this. So if anyone else has any good links, please, as Jon says, post.

    (Btw where did Suhayl say he was a ‘commi’? And what is wrong with being a ‘commi’?)

  637. Posting this again from Anon, earlier –

    A larger point is that the rhetorical dynamic in the immediate aftermath of the Morsi regime’s fall has been misguided. The Western press was full of sombre meditations on the fall of an “electorally legitimate” regime and the apparent failure of a “democratic experiment.” In opposition to this, some of the most articulate voices among the many millions who marched on June 30 were angry at having their successful campaign against Muslim Brotherhood rule labelled as a “coup” rather than an on-going struggle for true democracy. But the coup vs. will of the people debate goes nowhere. It is better to put these terms to the side and acknowledge that among the diversity of interests that motivated people to enter the streets on June 30 there was significant input not just from the old regime, but also from the security state. This is not to say that Morsi’s opponents actually were nothing but filul, as his supporters often claimed. But alongside well-justified objections by Morsi’s opponents to the American media’s failure to understand what was happening in Egypt, a narrative crystalised of plucky youth challenging the Morsi regime by circulating a petition. It is important to move beyond this attractive image before it turns into another over-romanticised and ultimately distracting “Facebook Revolution” legend. The story of tamarrud as a brave act of resistance is by no means wrong, but neither is it sufficient to explain the current situation.

    …Walter Armbrust is Hourani Fellow and University Lecturer in Modern Middle East Studies at Oxford University.

  638. been looking a bit and the alternative truth is indeed that Morsi had turned his back on the IMF

    It is a lot more involved than that. IMF was intent on “restructuring the economy” ie Greece redux. Morsi had no alternative but to turn to the Saudi and Qatari sheikhs and the subsequent change of stance on Syria, as a manifest and direct result of paying fealty to his new best sponsors.

    Morsi was a weak president knowingly thrown in among the wolves and he could not deliver. Further his life was made even more difficult by various elements within the government, army and yes the rich in Egypt. Check out Naguib Sawiris Note the mickey mouse and mini mouse in Islamic garb joke, and the references. Also noteworthy; he was the broker between Mubarak and the revolutionaries.

    It is wheels within wheels, and it is more fucking convoluted than the Chinese courts. Fact that al Sisi arrived and shoved more than sis hundred MB leadership into jail is not given any publicity.

    Al Sisi is another US trained General in charge of the military controlled enterprises. He is no liberal, or a nationalist, he is the epitome of the graduates of the “school of Americas” kind of a place for the mid east.

    ===

    Arsalan, don’t emphasis the “ignorant” it is no sin; not to know, best try and explain the facts, the sources of information available to most people in the west does not include the full picture (wonder why?).

    BTW skip the inflammatory questions tabled at you, or it will be a fuckfestfrago without the ziofuckwits pressing a key on their keyboard.

  639. come offit. Inflammatory questions tabled at Arsalan. When Suhayl has been greeted throughout with consummately hysterical language – liar, hypocrite, blah blah. If you think that, under cover of the Eqypt question, this attempted bullying and dismissal of a particular and humane perspective has gone unnoticed, you are wrong.

    In fact, for shame. If I wasn’t quite sure that Suhayl is fair-minded, and would therefore want to see this, I wouldn’t be posting it. You could have scuppered a valid perspective just by being horrible. Think on.

    http://www.voltairenet.org/article179480.html

  640. It’s a very simple question, Arsalan. Why would it be “inflammatory”? Why would such a question inflame someone? Here it is again:

    “Arsalan, if I may ask, what are you views on lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans-gender human beings?” Me.

    Human rights is a key issue, in Egypt and across the Middle East. LGBT rights form a key part of that fabric.

    And Fedup, why is it unacceptable to ask questions about LGBT rights?

  641. Technicolour, thanks again. Much appreciated.

    Wrt the “Commie” thing, I wrote that I was not a liberal, but “a Red under the bed”.

    Arsalan conveniently took this to mean that I am a Communist, which I am not. But you see, if I am painted as a Communist, then I cannot be a Muslim and that would be a convenient configuration in this specific dialectical framework.

    I am a Muslim and I have socialist views.

  642. And Fedup, why is it unacceptable to ask questions about LGBT rights?

    You damn fine well know the answer, don’t you?

    Other than intention on painting the Muslims as a bunch of “savages” why did you ask the question?

    Whilst everyday Muslims in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somali, ……. are droned, dying from the most trivial of diseases, getting blown up as collateral damage, have little food, shelter, no access to education, medicine, ….. Never mind all these basic problems. Explore the minority fucking vociferous cause of Gay, Lesbian Bi-sexual and Transgender (sex,sex,sex,sex) that is in shorthand too, the fuckers cant be arsed to write it out in whole and it has come to be a Q code (don’t know that fucking tough) to be splattered all over the place, exposing the ultimate sin of the fucking Muslims, get the ducking stool out, and waterboard the bastards.

    Suhayl you have a nasty streak a fucking mile wide, you are trying to paint the Muslims in the worst possible light and will not cease to resort to the lowest denominator tricks in the book, the latest of which is the LBGT.

    Asking rhetorical questions, why don’t you go ahead and fucking answer the question, yourself. You have no intentions of reaching an understanding, you are too busy being fucking clever, sort of a Muslim Habashagfuckwit opposite number.

    PS you do know that in the Islamic Republic of Iran there is a government grant which transgender patients can apply for to help them pay the costs of their gender change operations?

    ====

    come offit. Inflammatory questions tabled at Arsalan. When Suhayl has been greeted throughout with consummately hysterical language – liar, hypocrite, blah blah. If you think that, under cover of the Eqypt question, this attempted bullying and dismissal of a particular and humane perspective has gone unnoticed, you are wrong.

    Now the debate has moved on to a new low.

    Dissembling the truth, only to reiterate the current wave of hatred and prejudice against Muslims coming from any quarter is wrong and despicable be it from the purported Muslims, or card carrying members of the EDL.

    Then the final link to the Voltaire I did not know that!!!!!!

    I wrote earlier Wheels within Wheels, did you think I am referring to some kind of a Ferris wheel?

    Mid east is a dangerous place, strange place, nothing is at seems, and anyone taking the time to study it, will be amazed at the fluidity of the relationships, and rules of contract. The more you find out the more you shall realize how little you know?

  643. Fedup, I don’t know if it is cruel or not to laugh at you. You genuinely appear to be mentally disturbed. Normally I’d entert