Orange March IS Illegal

by craig on September 3, 2014 5:03 pm in Uncategorized

The great Orange March in Edinburgh will be the only occasion on which the No side have managed to gather more than 300 people in one place in the entire campaign.

pm in glasgow uni

The average turnout for David Cameron’s big speeches of the campaign in Glasgow and Perth was under 200 people. On my own recent speaking tour we substantially beat that in Dundee and equalled it in the small town of Insch! Not to mention the 70,000 people who have watched my St Andrews speech online. Gordon Brown’s speaking tours have been strictly ticket only – and a fair number of the invited have declined the opportunity.

Search online as much as you like. There are no substantial No gatherings of any kind, no No flash mobs or mass canvasses. There is no speech for the No campaign that has a fifth of 70,000 views online.

But they do have the Orange Order and their grand March in Edinburgh on the 13 September. This parade of knuckle dragging Neanderthals, many of them off the ferry from Northern Ireland, is the only show of popular enthusiasm for the Union ever to be mustered by Better Together. Unfortunately it is illegal.

As I posted on 11 August, this proposed Orange March is plainly in contravention of the Public Order Act 1936, which bans any demonstrations in uniform for a political object.

Section 1 (i)

Subject as hereinafter provided, any person
who in any public place or at any public meeting wears
uniform signifying his association with any political
organisation or with, the promotion of any political
object shall be guilty of an offence :

Normally, the Orange Order in Scotland are allowed to march on the (dubious) grounds that their object is cultural not political. But on this occasion they are marching as a registered participant with the Electoral Commission in the Referendum campaign, and with the avowed object of promoting a No vote. There is therefore no doubt whatsoever that the march is political and, if in uniform, illegal. Orange Order sources confirm they will be marching in uniform.

The march can be carried out in uniform with the consent of the Chief Constable and the Secretary of State for Scotland. But an assiduous reader of this blog has received confirmation from the Scottish Government that the Orange Order do not have this permission:

Dear xxxx
Thank you for your email. Following a search of our records I can advise that the Scottish Government has neither received nor granted an application from Police Scotland under the Public Order Act 1936 to permit the wearing of political uniforms by members of the Orange Order. As I stated in my previous email, I am unable to provide legal advice interpreting whether or not the Act applies in this situation.
Yours sincerely
Mathew West
Police Powers Unit
Safer Communities Division
Scottish Government

What is at question here is not whether it ought to be illegal to march in uniform for political objects. The fact is that plainly it is illegal. The law is not moribund – it was applied for example against Irish republicans in London in the 1980s.

The real question is whether the law is applied impartially to all, or are those who have the support of the Establishment allowed to break the law flagrantly and massively?

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123 Comments

  1. A pro-indpendence Scottish government using an 80 year old anti-fascist law to prevent an opposition demonstration.

    I can’t see anything wrong with that.

  2. Al Milliner

    Aah yes, those nearly 400 NATO bombing raids on Sirte actually did very little harm at all. I stand corrected.

  3. Benny Spiro

    3 Sep, 2014 - 5:35 pm

    What is this political uniform these members of the Orange Order will be wearing?.

  4. ‘A pro-indpendence Scottish government using an 80 year old anti-fascist law to prevent an opposition demonstration.

    I can’t see anything wrong with that.’

    Using anti fascist laws to prevent a march , by a fascistic , sectarian and racist organisation seems fine to me . Kempe , you obviously don’t have a problem with fascists breaking the law , wonder why that is ?

  5. Bryan Chalmers

    3 Sep, 2014 - 5:39 pm

    Why would you want it banned?

    This is surely favourable to the Yes campaign?

  6. Benny Spiro

    If you read the act, the phrase “political uniform” does not appear. Nor does it appear in my article. What is banned is the wearing of uniform to symboliser their association with a political cause. Which in putting on uniforms to march in a Vote No demonstration they plainly will be doing.

    Kempe

    You really are a silly man.

    a) It is nothing to do with the Scottish Givernment. It is the Secretary of State (named in the Act) the police and the judiciary.
    b) Nobody is opposing them holding a demonstration. They are absolutely welcome to. What is illegalis their marching in uniform for a political cause.
    c) The law on murder is a lot older than this one. Your argument that as the law is 80 years old it should not apply is just silly. And do you condemn its use to convict Irish republican sympathisers in the 1980s?

  7. Bryan

    Yes it is. And it is even more favourable if people realise they are being allowed to do something illegal.

  8. Benny Spiro

    3 Sep, 2014 - 5:46 pm

    Ok, what uniform will hey wear that symbolises their association?

  9. Al Milliner

    3 Sep, 2014 - 5:51 pm

    Oh look, another comment of mine deleted! Obviously some clamping down is necessary as the referendum nears.

  10. Benny Spiro

    You could try Google. An example herehttp://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/03/scottish-republicans-orange-order-parade-yes-campaign

  11. Unfortunately I suspect that if you approached the officer in charge of policing the march and made that point the prospect of arresting several hundred, often drunk, orangemen would mean pragmatism would trump the letter of the law.

    Maybe we could crowdfund a private prosecution after the event and bankrupt the lodges?

  12. Hi, Craig. Although the phrase ‘political uniform’ isn’t used by you, it is used in the reply from the police. I suspect they are confused about the law. There are many ways in which existing laws could be used to prevent any Orange Walks at all, but it’s seen as too dangerous. I know many people from outside Scotland (well, Glasgow even) who point-blank refuse to believe that the police tolerate outright criminality on these walks until they witness them with their own eyes, turning a blind eye to assaults. Of course the SNP’s anti-sectarian laws should eliminate them completely, but they tend to only be used on Catholic sectarians, due to fears of a backlash. I’m sure if we saw ex-soldiers on anti-war marches wearing their old uniforms we would see it enforced. Although this is precisely why I’m actually not in favour of this law, though obviously I agree it should be applied while it exists. Plus, banners saying ‘The Orange Order says no to separation’ have provided me with the biggest laugh in a while. Any more obviously ironic and it’d tip into tedium, like the Blair thing. Great speech by the way.

  13. “Plus, banners saying ‘The Orange Order says no to separation’ have provided me with the biggest laugh in a while.”

    Yip it’s hilarious!!! No to separation except in Ireland!

  14. As a Yes voter, I say let them march.
    I hope Fred leaves his sash at home though. I would hate to see the old boy getting arrested. :-)

  15. Juteman

    Were you at the meeting at the Steps? Was hoping to see you.

  16. It’s entirely up to the Scottish Government to decide whether or not the act applies in this situation.

    The 1936 act was introduced after the Battle of Cable Street to curb the BUF. It was used against pro-IRA marches in London during the 1970’s simply because there was nothing else. I’m not sure fining a dozen or so blokes the maximum then allowed, £50, for wearing black berets had much effect on the troubles overall.

  17. Al Milliner

    3 Sep, 2014 - 6:53 pm

    Craig places a lot of faith in the empty halls of the No campaign. He hasn’t twigged yet that the excitement on Twitter and elsewhere for the Yes campaign is because they offer something radical and new. So every blog of his is full of the vigour and activism of the Yes camp. He’s never known anything like it he keeps telling us. They make a lot of noise.

    But I’m afraid boring and dull will prevail and if you want to know the outcome then just look at the bookies’ odds.

  18. Unfortunately, I wasn’t there, Craig. Current health issues mean that I am missing all the fun at the moment. A once in a lifetime chance to be part of something big, and i’m laid up. :-(

  19. Lots of games can be played with the 16% undecideds. Will the OSCE need to do a re-count? :)

  20. Tanganyikans for NO

    3 Sep, 2014 - 6:59 pm

    Oh Craig, don’t be a stick in the mud, it’s just tradition. It’s the British cultural heritage to manage its colonies with tribal politics! Let’s be inclusive and have some and Sikhs and Kakwas marching about!

  21. ” what does it look like so I can keep an eye out for it.”

    That’s the problem with insurgencies; no uniforms except maybe a balaclava.

  22. The sectarianism hanging out of the yes voters here is plain to see. Plus could someone point out to me the racism in the orange order?

  23. Republicofscotland

    3 Sep, 2014 - 7:13 pm

    I know someone who attends the O/O and he told me Henry Dunbar has ordered his foot soldiers to vote no. The Orange Order are akin to Better Together, as ISL are to Westminster, they’re a useful tool that can be denied in the blink of an eye.

    The problem with upcoming O/O march is one of identification, no one really knows who’s marching,and where there from, and as we’ve seen in the past,with other marches,BNP,EDL,SNLA, a group of trouble makers could pose as a yes group, to instigate violence, to make yes appear in a bad light.

    I think Nigel Farage is due to appear in Edinburgh sometime this month before the 18th, the next two weeks will if nothing, be very interesting.

  24. Yeah blame the trouble on everyone else, republicanism have never used violence before. Plus the actions of yes voters who’ve been rallied via social media to attend better together stalls, has already shown their knuckle draggers will stoop to any level & violence isn’t below them.

  25. Thank you Al Milliner for providing alternative rubbish to Baa! Humbugs.

  26. Tim Zymurgy

    3 Sep, 2014 - 7:37 pm

    @muscleman
    To be fair, it is rare that you would see a drunk Orange man at any demonstration.
    It is usually the supporters that hang on, it is a bit like there being a drunk at a football game. (Well I hope the players aren’t) :-P

    But I see your point.

    Let them walk and promote the Yes vote.

  27. Republicofscotland

    3 Sep, 2014 - 7:44 pm

    From industry recruitment website oilandgaspeople.com today:

    “Scotland could be sitting on more than double the amount of oil and gas reserves currently predicted, a new independent industry investigation has found. The investigation reveals that the scale of Scotland’s untapped frontier West Coast or Atlantic Margin has been underestimated.

    The investigation was undertaken by oilandgaspeople.com, the world’s largest oil and gas industry jobs board, and independent North Sea oil and gas industry experts. The investigation included interviews with industry experts and collated seismic and expert evidence from a range of independent sources such as the British Geological Survey, DECC, oil and gas companies, the Institute of Petroleum Engineering and the Energy Institute.

    The findings show that the current predictions of extensive untapped reserves of oil and gas could be underestimated by 100%. The West Coast alone could provide oil and gas for at least 100 years with an estimated value of more than £1 trillion.”

    Taken from Wings over Scotland.

  28. Al Milliner

    3 Sep, 2014 - 7:48 pm

    Craig

    “Aah yes, those nearly 400 NATO bombing raids on Sirte actually did very little harm at all. I stand corrected.”

    No one is saying they did very little harm, Craig. I’m asking where you got your 15,000 figure from and on what basis you believe the BBC is covering it up.

    You said:

    “We killed 15,000 people when NATO bombed Sirte, something they never tell you on the BBC.”

    Furthermore, you are using this as an argument in support of Scottish independence from the UK. And you tell us 70,000 people have watched your speech and therefore have absorbed your lie.

    You can carry on deleting my posts and trying to ban me but I will keep on asking.

    Where did you get the 15,000 from , Craig?

    [Note to readers: on the past three occasions Craig has posted a reply that doesn’t answer my points at all and then deleted (or had one of his mods delete) my original post.]

  29. Benny Spiro 2

    3 Sep, 2014 - 7:50 pm

    Left wing fascism’s alive and kicking.Get used to the fact the OO have as much right as any leftie Irish Republican groups too hold a march in Edinburgh. We’re not going away ha ha.

  30. @Al Milliner

    The odds are not to do with the number of people betting either way. Instead they are about the chance of the bookie having to pay out more than taken in. The odds in fact reflect the amounts waged respectively. There have been a serious of six figure bets on a No vote vs a plethora of small bets for Yes at a variety of majorities. William Hill released figures showing the percentages in various places. In nowhere in Scotland were there more bets for No vs Yes. In two places including here in Dundee 100% of bets with WH have been for Yes.

    Only in English cities were No in front in number of bets. Those statistics tell you what you need to know. Scottish residents, much closer to the referendum and each other are, in droves, betting on Yes winning.

  31. Republicofscotland

    3 Sep, 2014 - 8:06 pm

    This is interesting could this be the reason, NATO is on the verge of attacking Russia, it would explain why western backed Ukraine forces shot down MH17, then blamed it on Russia.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/jim-willie-saudi-s-are-on-the-verge-of-joining-russia-non-dollar-oil-sales

  32. All the rubber duckies being lined up, RoS.

    From NYT;

    “France threw a highly contentious arms deal with Russia into doubt on Wednesday over the Ukraine crisis, saying that it was premature to schedule the delivery of a sophisticated French-built warship to the Russian Navy.

    A statement issued by President François Hollande’s office said he had told a meeting of ministers that despite a possible cease-fire in Ukraine between government forces and Russian-backed separatists, the conditions for France to deliver the first warship had not yet been met.

    Mr. Hollande also called the situation in Ukraine “grave” and said that Russia’s recent actions in eastern Ukraine were against “the foundations of security in Europe.”

  33. Republicofscotland

    3 Sep, 2014 - 8:17 pm

    On July 17, 2012, Zionist Knesset member Michael Ben-Ari publicly destroyed a copy of the New Testament, saying:

    “This abominable book galvanized the murder of millions of Jews during the Inquisition and during auto-da-fé instances. Sending the book to MKs is a provocation. There is no doubt that this book and all it represents belongs in the garbage can of history.”
    —————————
    Anti-Christian violence is on the rise in Palestine. According to Israeli daily newspaper Ha’aretz, a gang of 100 followers of Chabad-Lubavitch Yitzchak Ginsburgh have been linked to 24 attacks on Christian monasteries and churches across Palestine since 2009, including three since March. On May 9, 2014, the Romanian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem was defaced with the words “Jesus Is Garbage” and other spray-painted slogans.
    ————————————

    On May 5, 2014, “Death to Arabs and Christians” was painted on the Catholic Notre Dame Center in Jerusalem. On March 31, 2014 the words “Jesus Is A Monkey, Mary Is A Cow” were painted on the Deir Rafat Catholic monastery near the city of Beit Shemesh.
    ———————————–
    If this shoe was on the other foot, they’d a worldwide public out cry, that lot reek of hypocrisy.
    ————————–
    http://americanfreepress.net/?p=19321

  34. Al Milliner

    3 Sep, 2014 - 8:18 pm

    Muscleguy:

    “Scottish residents, much closer to the referendum and each other are, in droves, betting on Yes winning.”

    You’re falling for the same hype as Craig, namely that because Yes voters feel a groundswell of support around them and on social media and it all feels very radical and exciting and new, that means Scotland is going to vote Yes.

    I’m afraid your ‘Scottish residents’ will be out of pocket come Sep 18th as the majority of Scots who are not blogging and twittering soberly place their tick in the No box.

  35. Republicofscotland

    3 Sep, 2014 - 8:23 pm

    All the rubber duckies being lined up, RoS.
    ————-
    Interesting Ben,in one hand France oppose Russia whilst building ships for them, in another France arms the Free Syrian Army, check out the picture.

    http://info-wars.org/2014/09/01/the-grand-saudi-reversal/

  36. Resident Dissident

    3 Sep, 2014 - 8:26 pm

    Of course these rules do not apply to all the piped bandsmen in uniforms at Scottish independence marches

    http://www.demotix.com/news/2749707/thousands-march-scottish-independence-edinburgh-rally/all-media

    But then they are decent people who buy into Craig’s rhetoric about the demotic UK state.

    My own view is that you have to allow free speech to both religious and nationalist sectarians if you believe in democracy and free speech – let’s leave the banning to the dictators and the despots.

  37. ROS; that Kurdish oil tanker that disappeared a few days ago from RADAR, showed up again. Iraq seems to have quite a reach. Maybe this was the same radar/sat that didn’t know where MH370 was, or is.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2740111/Kurdish-oil-tanker-disappeared-radar-Texas-coast-REAPPEARS.html

  38. Republicofscotland

    3 Sep, 2014 - 8:31 pm

    Tony Blair was last night improbably named philanthropist of the year by a leading magazine.
    The former prime minister was handed the award to a ‘muted’ response at a celebrity-packed gathering in central London. It was in recognition of his ‘philanthropy, establishing three charities’.
    GQ magazine’s decision drew immediate criticism, with Labour MP John Mann saying last night: ‘It sends the wrong message. This sort of award should go to an unsung hero who has given up their time for charity.’
    ——————————
    Conservative MP Rob Wilson added: ‘I can think of many awards Tony Blair might win but this wasn’t one of them.’
    Tory MP Ian Liddell-Grainger said the award was a ‘a slap in the face for all the damage he had done to the UK’.
    He said: ‘This is the man that could split the union, having given Scotland a parliament.
    —————————–
    ‘And is advising dodgy countries around the world… GQ or generally queasy?’
    Tory MP Charlie Elphicke pointed out that Mr Blair has advised Kazakh leader Nursultan Nazarbayev, including on how to improve his image after his police killed 14 unarmed protesters.
    ———————————–
    What the f*ck, words fail me, what next Robert Mugabe given the Nobel Peace prize. Check out the creepy grin on Blair’s face
    ————————-
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2741328/What-Middle-East-crisis-Disbelief-Tony-Blair-handed-jaw-dropping-philanthropist-year-title-GQ-awards-ceremony.html

  39. The bookies odds are a puzzle.

    William Hill report 79% of Scottish bets laid on yes yet they still offer 11/4 odds. Of course the odd makers take into account other factors but this seems a surprising disregard for a fundamental indicator.

    Perhaps someone familiar with odds setting can explain this.

    Or is there really a bookies conspiracy going on, possibly encouraged by further deregulation winks and huge amounts being laid on no in London?

  40. Resident Dissident

    3 Sep, 2014 - 8:36 pm

    Al Milliner

    It is a pretty common feature among the experienced involved in political campaigns to thing that they will win even in the most hopeless cases, and for the experienced to encourage such a view in order to keep up morale and to limit the damage. A large pinch of salt is required whenever you listen to participants in any political campaign when they start predicting the results – LibDems, and especially former Liberals are known for their inveterate lying on this score.

  41. Republicofscotland

    3 Sep, 2014 - 8:38 pm

    ROS; that Kurdish oil tanker that disappeared a few days ago from RADAR, showed up again. Iraq seems to have quite a reach. Maybe this was the same radar/sat that didn’t know where MH370 was, or is.
    —————–
    Ben haven’t really been following this story, but IS the tanker full of crude or something else, it would be a good way of moving large amounts of arms and men or even tactical nukes without much detection, as for Paul Dacre and the Daily Mail, some of his stories need to be taken with a large pinch of salt.

    But I agree this story warrants a closer look.

  42. Phil;

    75% of Londoners bet on ‘no’ so it seems wishful thinking is driving the odds. When folks start betting on a long-shot in a horse race, it drives the odds down to some reality.

  43. Ben
    “75% of Londoners bet on ‘no’ so it seems wishful thinking is driving the odds.”

    But William Hill know that Londoners do not get a vote.

    They seem to be disregarding a fundamental signal of the outcome. In my half baked understanding it makes no sense to me.

  44. Republicofscotland

    3 Sep, 2014 - 8:55 pm

    Though news on the Ebola virus has been muted since two American health care workers were admitted to U.S.-based facilities last month, the deadly contagion continues to spread. According to the World Health Organization more than 40% of all Ebola cases thus far have occurred in just the last three months, suggesting that the virus is continuing to build steam.

    Physicist Alessandro Vespignani of Northeastern University in Boston is one of several researchers trying to figure out how far Ebola may spread and how many people around the world could be affected. Based on his findings, there will be 10,000 cases by September of this year and it only gets worse from there.
    ——————–
    Enter big pharma who’ll inoculate million, whilst making billions, but not before the Ebola scare story has hit maximum panic,by the ever obedient press,of course if big pharma can somehow create panic in the USA, the dollars will flow in.

  45. It doesn’t make sense, but I’ve watched the chaos on a trading floor, and that makes no sense to me either. Are you suggesting some manipulation?

  46. Republicofscotland

    3 Sep, 2014 - 9:03 pm

    Here’s What the British Government Has Been Hiding from You.
    ==============================
    In 2013, The Guardian revealed that Britain’s Foreign & Commonwealth Office (FCO) had illegally withheld 1.2 million (later revised to 600,000) historic documents from the public, in flagrant breach of the UK Public Records Act.
    ============================

    The documents – which include the desk diary of Soviet spy Donald Maclean; case files from Nazi persecution compensation claims; and masses of material removed from Hong Kong – were being held at Hanslope Park, a secretive, high-security compound in Buckinghamshire that the FCO shares with intelligence agencies MI5 and MI6.
    ========================

    The whole document saga began in 2009, when a group of elderly Kenyans brought a historic lawsuit against the FCO, claiming damages for abuse they suffered under British colonial authorities (which, in the case of these particular plaintiffs, included rape and castration). At the time, FCO officials denied having any relevant documents that might shed light on the crimes. Only two years later, in 2011, did the FCO admit it was unlawfully holding 1,500 Kenya files at Hanslope Park.
    Later, it confessed to possessing 20,000 undisclosed files from 37 former British colonies.
    ===============================

    The documents include incriminating evidence of murder and torture by British colonial authorities. (An embarrassed British government began releasing the so-called “Migrated Archives” to Britain’s National Archives in 2012.)
    ==============================
    Looks like the FCO were forced to show some of the many skeletons in their closet.

    http://rinf.com/alt-news/uk-news/heres-british-government-hiding/

  47. Ben
    “Are you suggesting some manipulation?”

    Not really and yes of course at the same time.

    I am not sure how much bookies odds influence the outcome. Probably not much so no manipulation is worth it. Yet again the odds are often quoted to quiet yes enthusiasm.

    Either way it makes no sense to me. Maybe someone who better understands odds setting will chime in.

  48. Alt-na-reigh futures

    3 Sep, 2014 - 9:12 pm

    The real indicator of the odds on independence is an increased number of PIE old boys making one last trek North to bugger Scottish children while they can.

  49. But this account is wrong: the United States and its European allies share most of the responsibility for the crisis. The taproot of the trouble is NATO enlargement, the central element of a larger strategy to move Ukraine out of Russia’s orbit and integrate it into the West. At the same time, the EU’s expansion eastward and the West’s backing of the pro-democracy movement in Ukraine — beginning with the Orange Revolution in 2004 — were critical elements, too. Since the mid-1990s, Russian leaders have adamantly opposed NATO enlargement, and in recent years, they have made it clear that they would not stand by while their strategically important neighbor turned into a Western bastion. For Putin, the illegal overthrow of Ukraine’s democratically elected and pro-Russian president — which he rightly labeled a “coup” — was the final straw. He responded by taking Crimea, a peninsula he feared would host a NATO naval base, and working to destabilize Ukraine until it abandoned its efforts to join the West.

    http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141769/john-j-mearsheimer/why-the-ukraine-crisis-is-the-wests-fault

  50. Yet another unintended consequence of removing Khaddafi…..

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09/03/libya-islamist-militants_n_5758520.html

  51. “They seem to be disregarding a fundamental signal of the outcome. In my half baked understanding it makes no sense to me.”

    It makes perfect sense, they don’t much care what the outcome is, they make money either way.

    The odds never add up. If the odds of yes winning are 5/1 against then the odds of no winning should be 5/1 on but they aren’t, they are 8/1 on. The bookies are going to win, they have taken enough money from whoever loses to pay out whoever wins and some left for themselves.

    If those in the yes camp had as much confidence as they say they have they would be betting their life savings and getting rich. Obviously they don’t.

  52. Republicofscotland

    3 Sep, 2014 - 9:36 pm

    The “Wee Blue Book” on the true facts of independence, please share far and wide, thanks.

    http://theweebluebook.com/

  53. Fred
    “they make money either way”

    Yes, I get bookies margins, but if the odds reflected the (apparent) reality they would make more money.

  54. Oops didn’t see the new Post !

    Is it just me or is the new Poster “Al Milliner” a horrid fusion of Resident Dissident and the Habba-Clown, or maybe even Resident Dissident on Dutch Courage ! Well he has been known to engage in sock-puppeting, as of course has the Habba-Clown; I think my money is on Resident Dissident, as his pet fake self-righteous hobby horse has already been aired by “Al Milliner” with his,” A loathing of the West so deep-rooted that it allows no room for any other evil in the world? “. Maybe I’m being too pre-judgement, as although “Al Milliner” is airing the same carbon copy views, he hasn’t resorted to full blown troll tactics as yet, but I’m watching ! :D

    Anyhow “Al Milliner” is justified in asking Craig for the source of his 15,000 killed iro Sirte, and Craig is being strangely evasive in not be forthcoming; a quick check google check may have provided the answer, as it gave a link to this Guardian article;

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/17/libyan-rebels-capture-bani-walid

    Which has this; “with a diehard group of about 15,000 residents and fighters holding out in several pockets of the city”

    So perhaps the thinking is that practically nobody got out alive, which is not so far-fetched really, as remember what happened to the inhabitants of Tawargha once it was over-run by the “Rebels”, and the NATO bombers literally handed what remained of Sirte to them.

  55. Republicofscotland

    3 Sep, 2014 - 10:00 pm

    Saudi Arabia to demolish tomb of Prophet Muhammad for expansion of mosque.
    ——————-
    I’m surprised at this.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=42e_1409759076

  56. Good point, Macky.

    “Andrew Gillighan is a serious reporter and he even mentions the racial context:

    And as so often in Libya, there is also a racist undercurrent. Many Tawargas, though neither immigrants nor Gaddafi’s much-ballyhooed African mercenaries, are descended from slaves, and are darker than most Libyans.

    Along the road that leads into Tawargha, the Misurata Brigade has painted a slogan. It says, “the brigade for purging slaves [and] black skin.”

    We have to say, the racist element is more than an undercurrent, but if more journalists had reported the truth rather than turning a blind eye, refusing to report or to investigate then perhaps lives could still be saved.

    In this context we should just mention the “reporting” of so-called journalists such as Chris Stephen who has been in Misrata for weeks writing pro-war, pro-NATO propaganda for the benefit of the Guardian’s readership and failing miserably to report on the racist atrocities and ethnic cleansing.

    Update (12 September) – The Washington Post reports Human Rights Watch Emergencies Director Peter Bouckaert as confirming:

    “It really is racist violence against all dark-skinned people, this situation for Africans in Tripoli is dire.”

    Update (14th September) – The ethnic cleansing of Tawergha is now being made permanent with the seal of approval of Mahmoud Jibril.”

    http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2011/09/12/libya-the-racist-revolution-tawargha/

    But NATO eschews racism, donchaknow?

  57. Al Milliner: You should change your name to the Brahan Seer.And since you’re getting your info from the horses mouth so to speak, next weeks lottery numbers would be appreciated.
    As Craig has pointed out above,they dont turn up for meetings, not even when its gloomy Gordon or the PM himself.Better Together really are the silent majority if they are a majority.But then you know Al ,don’t you ?
    Polls like most things these days are manipulated.Its the American way.Why wait on a result when you can make it happen.Its called being pro-active.

  58. RoS; Weird. Do they consider anything truly ‘holey’ except the House of Sod? Self-preservation seems to be the highest form of spirituality.

  59. PHIL; IS are not muslims. Now it seems even devout muslims are not muslims. Where shall we turn for guidance of a spiritual nature?

    It’s not a question of morality or spirituality, but economics and National/tribal pride. Can we agree on that at least? :)

  60. Ben
    “It’s not a question of morality or spirituality, but economics and National/tribal pride. Can we agree on that at least?”

    I don’t know mate. Possibly all of the above.

  61. I never liked Oranges for this reason – and there is a Reason For This. It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that when I was an Altar Boy – I partook in these enormous Catholic Processions from my Local Catholic Church in Oldham..It is far more boring than that – and you really do not want to know…but I will tell you anyway.

    I was breastfed until long after I could walk…at least 15months old..

    My Mum tried to substitute this horrible Orange Juice For Her Breast Milk…

    I Protested.

    Sorry about that.

    Tony

  62. I have some good news to tell you…I might as well tell you now…

    Thank You…for allowing me to write here..and not deleting absolutely Everything.

    I have just heard some completely wonderful news from my Ex-Girlfriend – who I met a few weeks ago at Cambridge Rock Festival…I asked Everyone To Pray For Her…We hadn’t met each other for 33 years…

    She has told me the Results of All Her Tests…Took 3 Days…Barium Meal…Full MRI Scan – and The Other One..and Something Else

    She hasn’t got Cancer and She will Be O.K.

    Thank You For The Prayers and The Mass.

    I don’t do Religion..but I thought a bit of Prayer wouldn’t hurt.

    It’s Innocence. It’s Love..I Didn’t invite Her Ex– He Works For UAE…You Know That Place Near To Potter Heigham Bridge…

    I thought wtf is going on…My Wife meets her Teenage Ex – Well He was Her Best Mate’s Really..But I have Read Her Diaries…sorry about that…if you don’t want anyone to read them..don’t write them…

    He said are you …… “maiden name”

    And I said…what did you say..I hadn’t seen him for 30 years either..but he and his friends have stayed at our house about 30 years ago…He looked absolutely ‘kin georgeous..I can understand that..if I was a girl..I would have done…but they didn’t…

    I’m expecting The ‘kin drummer to turn up next..He won’t be Ginger Now..He Will Be Completely BALD.

    Mine still grows out of my head – all of it…

    I met my ex – the next day. I hadn’t seen her for 33 years.

    Synchronicity or What?

    Tony

  63. University of East Anglia UEA – sorry about that…I didn’t want Craig To Know…My Wife and I know Norwich..and Certainly not The Telegraph. I’ll shurrup now or i will get my lad into trouble.

  64. Tony

    That is wonderful news indeed.

  65. Welcome to our new trolls Ben Spiro and Al Milliner…

    Just as idiotic as our normal ones;Jemand,Res Diss,Kempe,Fred,HabbaClown et al…

    Fascinating that the Scottish referendum brings out the hasbara though…

    Quite revealing is their omnishambolic presence.

    Yet apparently they don’t have a dug in this fight..lolzzzz

  66. Thank You Craig..It Put a Big Smile on My Face…oh and it wasn’t the United Arabic Republic Emirates…or wtf…Nah it was that even Bigger place…Oh Shit…you know where they have all these Princes in Robes and Stuff..

    My Son’s Invite was on Completely New Business…On The Internal Flight…They passed him 3 of their National Newspapers…He Didn’t Recognise The First Two…He was Hosting The Third…

    Then Completely Jet Lagged…They Invited Him Into This Meeting…with very little Briefing…and My 25 Year Old Lad Did a Full Professional Presentation in English To The Fucking King or whatever…his son’s…he went in Really Hard…

    He said your kit is 20 years out of date FFS you haven’t even got email working properly yet…Who Sold You This Kit???It Certainly Wasn’t The British.

    He Said The Americans Have Been Ripping You Off…The Interpreter Had To Be Polite.

    I never did that.

    He said to his mate..how the hell do you meet a girl here…as the boys went in the male side of McDonalds..and the Girls went in the Female side…

    What The Fuck?

    Tony

  67. I’m sure I read that the authority responsible have granted permission on condition that uniforms are not worn. I think with recent reports, one year overdue, of the young lady from Glasgow allegedly tweeting from Syria and an alleged Scots journalist being threatened with beheading AND our politicians alleging they fear “carnage” and intimidation at the polling places will work together with UKIP and Orange Order demonstrations to put fear in the hearts of voters. The fear is of public disorder/civil war should they vote YES. However, they’ve overspun it. They’ve cried wolf too many times and this just at the point when the population is reawakening politically.

  68. BrianFujisanWabi-sabi

    4 Sep, 2014 - 12:46 am

  69. Alan Nimmo turned up in a Kilt..and I shouted To Them…Can You Please Behave Yourselves…

    He Says..We are King King From Glasgow…

    I said yer what???…Its English Down Here…

    Oh All Right Then…

    We Stood Entranced and We Slowly Danced

    “King King – Jealousy”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTdcpMmF1DU

    Tony

  70. BrianFujisanWabi-Sabi
    4 Sep, 2014 – 12:46 am,

    Yeh – O.K. This old bloke said this in the USA on Fox News…

    He is Two Years Behind…

    Do you Really want Me To Tell You What Happenned in Libya – in Bengahazi???

    On the Ferry from Naxos To Athens..a couple of years before….

    And then I got robbed on The Modern Underground They had built for The Olympics…

    I Knew it was happenning and I screamed at them…

    It was a bit of a bummer actually…cos they took all my money my wallet everything – and my wife is like a queen – she never carries any money…

    So I tried to report it to the police…where it happenned…they laughed at me…

    We carried on to the airport..I tried to report it to the police at the airport…

    They said…you need to report it at the central police station…I asked how far is it…they said…you will need to get a taxi..I said I didn’t have any money…it got stolen…

    The Greek Police Smiled at Me as if To Say…You are Fucked Then Aren’t You…

    They hadn’t stolen our tickets…nor our passports…

    My lovely wife said…we will get home O.K.

    Tony

  71. I Reckon You Guys are Going To Win…bu what exactly is The Question …I Don’t have a Great Deal Of Interest…Cos I Don’t Have a Vote..So What is it…

    Yes For Scottish Independence…or

    No. Tell The Fuckers To Fuck Off

    I don’t know which way to vote even if I had a vote

    http://aberdeensnp.org/sites/default/files/images/Fireworks%20%26%20YES.jpg

    Tony

  72. Shit..I want The Scottish on My Side…Wouldn’t You in a FIGHT…

    Can us lot in The Border Country..You Know Like Berwick on Tweed…and The Lake District and Northumberland..Good University at Durham..and well North Yorkshire and Well Lancashire Too…Don’t take The Brummies..Nor that Lot in South Yorkshire…Unless They Want To Join Us With The Welsh and The Cornish in The New Great Britain…note The Celtic Spelling of Britain…It includes The Celts Too…

    The Anglo Saxons Can Fuck Off

    Oh You Get The Idea…sorry…

    North Western France, Wales, Edinburgh..and Fuckin Staithes…We Landed There in the Year 1600..we said would you like some of our Fish…

    They replied in their Yorkshire accents..where the Fuck Have You Come From??

    Sorry We only Speak French

    Sorry..We parler français … -Tu anglais … Voulez-vous un peu de poisson

    Tony

  73. I thought I better not mention The Irish…is Dreolin O.K.?

  74. I’m fine, Tony, thanks.

  75. I will be voting NO. But when I heard about the Orange Order march in Edinburgh, planned for the Saturday before the referendum, I wondered whether the NO campaign might be trying to lose.

    Here is the bottom line: if NO lose the Catholic Labour vote, they will lose the referendum.

    And having a big Orange walk in Edinburgh, which will obviously be a big talking-point in that Sunday’s newspapers, seems a good way to achieve exactly that. The whole point of most Orange walks (except in Donegal!) is to alienate Catholics and often to threaten them.

    So Craig, from your pro-YES point of view, you should support the march going ahead. The perceived division will be between YES, selling inclusivity and the future, and NO, selling sectarianism and archaism. Which is surely ideal for YES.

    Or maybe you just think YES should help publicise it? Which would make a lot of sense, so long as the work is not done by official YES figures.

    There are bound to be punch-ups on the march. Why? For the simple reason that YES have built up a substantial street presence. And while Better Together haven’t got much interest in dominating any streets, that’s not true of the Orange Order when they’re having a walk.

    Me, I hope NO whisper in some ears and stop the march from going ahead. It’s not as if MI5 haven’t got a presence in the UDA…er, I mean the Orange Order.

    But of course it’s very hard to tell the Orange Order what to do. “Remember 1690″ and all that. Maybe a word could be had through masonic channels? After all, this is Scotland!

    Nigel Farage of UKIP will also be in the news at that time. If I’m not mistaken, he will be visiting Scotland the day before.

    Is this what NO need – a cocky Englishman coming to Scotland to promote the continuation of the Union? That’s precisely what YES want. That’s why Salmond wanted to debate not with Darling but with Cameron.

    And Farage’s visit will be followed by a march by boneheaded brutes in uniforms whose whole ideology is about sectarian stubbornness and not forgetting the past? Oh bloody dear!

    YES have successfully created a carnival atmosphere in many towns. It’s not just that they are better organised. They are obviously better funded. In the second Darling-Salmond debate, it was also clear that they had outplayed ComRes, which must surely take a fair bit of money to achieve. They ‘won’ the debate not on any particular point of argument, not just on technical presentational excellence by their performer without regard to content, but on audience selection.

    Is someone helping them?

  76. N

    Having been part of the “Yes” carnival atmosphere, I can assure you there is no major central funding behind it. Folk are regularly digging into their own pockets, as I witnessed.

  77. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    4 Sep, 2014 - 8:31 am

    I wonder if sight could be restored to the blind eye customarily turned to the activities of the Orange Order. Marches in uniform for political purposes? How about a march past St. Giles’ in camo, balaclavas and black berets, with the pipes playing “Flower of Scotland”? Or, better still, a patriotic air that it is actually possible to play on the pipes?

    Still, things haven’t reached this stage yet, though there’s every possibility they will…

    http://www.worldbulletin.net/headlines/143701/israel-raids-closes-palestinian-al-aqsa-foundation

  78. I forgot to say: given that the YeSNP have tied their wagon to the EU horse, the UKIP anti-EU message has a lot of traction among those Scottish Protestants who believe the EU is Catholic-dominated.

    And remember that in a referendum, unlike in a general election, all votes really are equal. So getting a vote out of someone who’d otherwise stay at home in, say, Shetland, where there might be 80% support for NO, is worth the same as getting a vote out of someone who’d otherwise stay at home in Edinburgh, where the respective support levels might be closer to 50-50.

    Some are saying that the result of the referendum will be decided by older people, who are more likely to a) be registered, b) vote, and c) vote NO.

    Is it possible that the Orange Order march is designed to make sure that those among the minority of older Protestant unionists who might otherwise abstain are encouraged to get out and vote?

    Cue SNP complaints after a NO victory that the Orange Order were offering lifts to polling stations?

  79. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    4 Sep, 2014 - 8:45 am

    O/T, sorry, but very revealing:

    http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/palestine/palestine-israeli-army-opens-fire-gaza-fishermen-kidnap-two/

    Israeli soldiers opened fire, on Wednesday morning, at a number of Palestinian fishing boats close to the shore in the Sudaniyya area, west of Gaza City, and kidnapped two.

    Eyewitnesses said that Israeli navy boats opened fire at random, before attacking the fishing boats, and kidnapped two fishermen identified as Mohammad Zayed and Mousa Sultan.

    On Monday, at dawn, soldiers also attacked a number of Palestinian fishing boats, close to the shore, in Rafah, in the southern part of the Gaza Strip.

    The ongoing attacks come in direct violations of the Egyptian-mediated cease-fire agreement on August 26, ending Israel’s war on Gaza that started on July 8.

    At least 2137 Palestinians, including 577 children, 263 women, and 102 elderly have been killed, and more than 11100, including 3374 children, 2088 women and 410 elderly, have been injured.

    The attacks are also a violation of every cease-fire deal mediated between Israel and the resistance in Gaza, including the Israeli offensives on Gaza in 2012 and 2008.

    On Tuesday, Israeli warships opened fire at Palestinian fishermen in Gaza territorial waters.

    The August 26 agreement stipulated that Israel would immediately expand the fishing zone off Gaza’s coast to six nautical miles, and would continue to expand over time.

    According to the deal, they would be allowed to sail out as far as nine nautical miles, a week from the cease-fire date, and as far as twelve, a month from then.

    Under the Oslo Agreements, the Palestinians are supposed to be allowed to fish within 20 nautical miles, but the Israeli navy kept attacking them, and their boats, even while docked at the shore, causing dozens of casualties, arrests, and destruction of shipping boats.

    http://imemc.org/article/69021

    Obviously designed to stir things up again. The Israelis do not want peace.

  80. Ba’al – well there is a (pro-IRA) Scottish republican scene that overlaps a lot with the Scottish-based Irish republican scene, and they do like to get boys to march along in lockstep playing music. For some reason, they don’t go to Ibrox much.

    I wonder who’s playing who at football the weekend before 18 Sep?

    When someone gets punched by an Orange steward on a walk in Glasgow, the police usually look the other way.

  81. “The real question is whether the law is applied impartially to all, or are those who have the support of the Establishment allowed to break the law flagrantly and massively?”

    Is the metewand of Justice to measure strictly every action? If so, all Scottish actions would need an army of lawyers and bureaucrats just to scratch their arses.

    Surely, law is to be interpreted and only called for when their is a problem; to bring it onto every action is the act of control freaks… Craigspierre. And how many control freaks do you know, who could comprehend the meaning of ‘impartiality’?

    Your system of universal impartiality would only work in a society of clones, for only then does fascism lose its sting.

    And since this infraction to your egalitarian sensibilities was furbished by the “Scottish Government”, acting as the ‘Establishment’ in question, shouldn’t your grievance be against them?

  82. nevermind, Scotland will be free

    4 Sep, 2014 - 9:05 am

    Congrats to Tony for the good news, must have lifted a stone of your hearts.
    Thanks for that update Ba’al, just what we expected, Bibi is all talk and he only acts to steal land, but has problems with giving it back and if he finds oil in our back gardens, he’ll think nothing of taking it out under force of arms.

    Yesterday Obama Boomed in Estonia how ‘armed conflict can never be allowed to change borders’, well the bugger should speak to Bibi about that, but Bibi seems to tell him were to get off every time they meet, so the two don’t really get on and Bibi does as he like’s the little murderous tyke.

    The BBC is getting cold feet over the upswell in positive yes support for Scotland, the stock market is having kittens, the whole QE scaffold structure will be coming crushing down on their derivatives. Oh dear…..

  83. BrianFujisanWabi-sabi

    4 Sep, 2014 - 9:08 am

    N

    Im From the west Coast..lived here all my life…it’s a beautiful place…

    I can ASSURE ASSHOLES there will be NO Sectarianism after 18th …

    NOTICE TO ALL… IT DOSE NOT EXIST HERE…To anything remotely serious Levels GOT IT

  84. @Jives
    “Yet apparently they don’t have a dug in this fight”

    Oh, but they do. Most on the independence side recognise that separation is a serious blow to the UK ruling elite. They hope for a benign domino effect, where an independent Scotland demonstrates that the neo-liberal consensus in London, far from being the only socio-economic option, is foolish and impractical, not to mention immoral.

    Both sides in the debate can claim to be rainbow alliances: on the independence side are the SNP, socialists, assorted radial left groups, Greens, and non-aligned citizens. For the Union we have the Tories (in three flavours, Lib, Lab, and Cool Original), the BNP, UKIP, the Brittanica Party and the Orange Order. It seems quite clear that one side wants movement to the left, while the other wants the status quo or preferably movement to the right.

    Our watchdogs are aware of this and have been instructed to snarl. They are the dugs in the fight.

  85. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    4 Sep, 2014 - 9:16 am

    There has been some speculation as to the identity of (relatively) new poster “Al Milliner”. He has been identified, variously, as “Anon” and, ludicrously, as Resident Dissident.

    Fair enough.

    Shall we also speculate on the identity of (relatively) new poster “Republicofscotland”, the variety of whose themes reveals him to be an old hand on here?

    Where’s Werrity? :)

  86. apple not orange

    4 Sep, 2014 - 9:17 am

    It is not unlawful to wear uniform on a political march. It is unlawful to wear uniform on a political march which signifies the promotion of political object. They’d have a defence based on how to interpret “signifies”. They could say that the fact that they are having a political march doesn’t make their uniform other than cultural.

  87. Brian, if you think all sectarianism will disappear after the 18th (whoever wins), you are living in cloud-cuckoo land. Do you really think anyone who doesn’t think it will disappear on that date is an “ASSHOLE” (capitalisation and US spelling retained)?

    So for example the Orange Order itself will disappear? Or maybe you think it isn’t sectarian or will stop being sectarian?

    I suggest you try to get things in proportion.

  88. nevermind, Scotland will be free

    4 Sep, 2014 - 9:25 am

    Would it be an idea, should this march of historically bypassed thugs be allowed to walk their talk, to organise lots or yes meetings within a mile of their hippocritical NO expression to Independence?

    If their march is only watched by a few NO campigners, then that can only backfire on the ‘carry on as usual’ campaign.

  89. BrianFujisanWabi-sabi

    4 Sep, 2014 - 9:28 am

    i should clarify..

    There so far..is no Sectarianism Re indyreff…Hereaboots… one of my children have fought in illegal wars …

    I’m very well placed to let people on this blog Know..when racism kicks in, or Sectarianism..it WONT happen

  90. @Vronsky – having a government with no control over monetary policy (as under sterlingisation) is something advocated by the right not the left.

  91. “Yes, I get bookies margins, but if the odds reflected the (apparent) reality they would make more money.”

    The odds do reflect the reality.

  92. Laurent Desbois

    4 Sep, 2014 - 9:35 am

    We have been there, but they use more politically correct names now! ORANGE PARADE TORONTO CANADA JULY 2013

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rLdxIo9J_Q

  93. @Brian – I know people who are voting NO because they are anti-EU because they think that the EU is Catholic-dominated and that the best chance to have a Scotland outside of the EU is to vote for Scotland to stay in Britain. (Personally I am in favour of EU membership and I think the best chance to have a Scotland outside of the EU is to vote YES, but I am not talking about my own views here.)

  94. BrianFujisanWabi-sabi

    4 Sep, 2014 - 9:42 am

    N

    look… there is some Sectarianism in Scotland… But the thing is..i might disagree with my friends…but we can do so on the same night..then party on.

  95. @Phil

    I get bookies margins, but if the odds reflected the (apparent) reality they would make more money.

    Bookies don’t gamble. They know it’s a mug’s game. They set the odds so as to balance their books. The reality the odds reflect is how much money is on what, at what previous odds.

    If there’s a quick rush, they can lose money, but then they get the publicity about how the bookies have lost money (so if you think you’re clever, start gambling – or continue). It’s like with the stories when there’s been a flood and so many people weren’t insured (so take out insurance now).

  96. Just found this article from the BBC:

    The march was approved after the Orange Order agreed to conditions including not playing instruments close to places of worship, and not wearing militaristic uniforms.

  97. In the event that any of the 70,000 viewers of Craig’s speech and the good people of Macedonia doubt Craig’s figure of 15,000 killed in Sirte by NATO forces, he can quickly dispel their doubts by providing his source here.

    Many people teetering on the edge of voting Yes in the forthcoming referendum will have absorbed this information without question and decided on the basis of it and the accusation of a BBC cover-up that they want nothing further to do with the UK.

    It obviously wasn’t Craig’s intention to mislead voters at this crucial time in the referendum campaign, so let’s have the source and then we can move on.

  98. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    4 Sep, 2014 - 10:08 am

    Good article (nothing sectarian about it)

    https://newmatilda.com/2014/09/04/scotlands-challenge-anglosphere

    Brian Fujisan, yes, the rural West Coast is pretty free of sectarianism (unless you count the all-too-frequent born-again Baptists, of the creationist tendency, whose main crime is their insufferable smugness. You can’t really be sectarian if you don’t even acknowledge the existence of the heretics around you, so the Wee Frees don’t count… But I think it’s still pretty prevalent in the urban Central Belt.

  99. Fred
    “The odds do reflect the reality.”

    Not sure what you mean. How does 11/4 against reflect 79%?

  100. For the Orange March, I say give them enough rope and they will hang themselves. Let them march, and the people of Scotland will see them for what they are. I think a law banning marches in uniform is dangerous, and should be scrapped. You could see it would only be a matter of time before a government claims that wearing Guy Fawkes masks constitutes a “uniform”.

  101. _N
    “They set the odds so as to balance their books. The reality the odds reflect is how much money is on what, at what previous odds.”

    Sure, I understand bookies do not loose but that does not explain the disparity between the bets they have taken (79% yes) and the odds they offer (11/4 against).

  102. One positive aspect of Scottish independence would be that the BBC weather forecast would no longer begin with the Outer Hebrides. It will have to begin with the Isle of Man instead so as not to appear London-centric but will get to areas where people actually live far quicker than before as Scotland currently takes up about half of the broadcast. On this basis alone I think over half of all English licence-fee payers would support a Yes vote as there are only so many times you can hear about another band of rain moving into the central belt without wanting to turn the telly off.

  103. Phil

    The point is not the number of bets they have taken (74% yes, as you say) but the total amount they have taken. They have taken a lot more money on No than on Yes due to a small number of massive bets placed in the South of England. Whether that is genuine private speculation, or like the push-polling an effort to make the idea of independence appear impossible, is an interesting question.

  104. “Whether that is genuine private speculation, or like the push-polling an effort to make the idea of independence appear impossible, is an interesting question.”

    Some wealthy businessmen have made large bets that if they win will land them hundreds of thousands tax-free and if they lose barely dent their fortunes. They have made an excellent financial decision as a No vote is almost certain.

    But in keeping with the general paranoia surrounding the Yes campaign, it must, of course, be a conspiracy. So the thinking goes that this can not be genuine private speculation but an attempt at distorting the likelihood of independence. For this to happen the businessmen would have to be controlled by the No campaign in some way – probably with the involvement of secret agencies handing them large amounts of money to bet with so as to make it appear that a Yes vote is a lost cause. It fits exactly with the psyche of most of the blog’s commenters and its author – nothing just happens, it’s always an elaborate conspiracy.

  105. “They have taken a lot more money on No than on Yes due to a small number of massive bets placed in the South of England. ”

    Just blame it on the English.

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-yes-vote-odds-at-longest-1-3185408

  106. Craig
    “The point is not the number of bets they have taken (74% yes, as you say) but the total amount they have taken.”

    Calculating by total sterling rather than a simple head count would seem to be a ludicrous method of setting odds for a referendum. 79% of Scots betting yes is an unambiguous indicator they would be mugs to ignore.

    Still don’t think I seen an explanation for 79% creating 11/4 against.

  107. Al Milliner; “In the event that any of the 70,000 viewers of Craig’s speech and the good people of Macedonia doubt Craig’s figure of 15,000 killed in Sirte by NATO forces, he can quickly dispel their doubts by providing his source here”

    Perhaps you’ve missed this Post here;

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/09/orange-march-is-illegal/#comment-476397

    It seems that the 15,000 figure refers to the reported total number of residents & fighters that will were left besieged in Sirte towards the end; surely a great proportion of these were killed by the massive NATO overkill of bombing runs, and when the anti-Gaddafi forces, who were encircling the town like vultures, knew that the bombing had killed most of the defenders, entered, they carried out a massacre of those who had survived the bombings, (starting with Gaddafi himself of course), just like they did in Tawargha, perhaps even more zealously here as this was Gaddafi’s home town, inhabited mostly by his people, & his supporters. Whichever way you look at it, yes NATO were responsible for the death of those 15,000 people.

  108. ‘One positive aspect of Scottish independence would be that the BBC weather forecast would no longer begin with the Outer Hebrides. It will have to begin with the Isle of Man instead so as not to appear London-centric but will get to areas where people actually live far quicker than before as Scotland currently takes up about half of the broadcast. On this basis alone I think over half of all English licence-fee payers would support a Yes vote as there are only so many times you can hear about another band of rain moving into the central belt without wanting to turn the telly off.’

    Agree with you there, Milliner. When Scotland breaks away we English might also wish to align our clocks with CET, and ditch GMT.After all, many more of us visit France, Spain , Italy etc. than visit Scotland, so this would mean no more timepiece fiddling when we cross the channel.We’ll have lighter evenings all year, and won’t have to listen anymore to farmers in the West of Scotland complaining that the adoption of CET means it doesn’t get light in Stornoway until nearly 10.30am on the shortest day.

  109. Geez man, i’m not surprised you got sacked as Uk Ambassador – you should never have got through the vetting with such intolerant views – ‘knuckle dragging neanderthals’ – crikey, you’d have been so useful at the Good Friday Accord that may be you could have got the biscuits.

  110. I take it for granted Mr Milliner will dutifully be tucking into his hat on the morning of the 19th, when Scotland wipes the, no doubt smug, smile from his face.

  111. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    4 Sep, 2014 - 1:51 pm

    Take a break, folks:

    http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2014/09/04/other-magazine-awards-tony-blair-has-won/

    Truth being stranger than fiction, perhaps, just a reminder that GQ magazine, which awarded Tony Blair its previously unknown “Philanthropist of the Year” piece of carved plastic, took on a new columnist in January. Alastair Campbell. FACT.

  112. @Craig

    Having been part of the “Yes” carnival atmosphere, I can assure you there is no major central funding behind it. Folk are regularly digging into their own pockets, as I witnessed.

    I don’t doubt the good faith and good intentions of most YES supporters, however rude I am about their leaders.

    But spending money promoting YES would make very good sense for ‘currency boys’ who want to attack sterling.

  113. Traders on the financial markets know volatility where they see it (it’s obvious enough from Betfair), and they leverage it.

  114. .

  115. Hi Craig, the O/O have brazenly disobeyed the laws not only in relation to parading in uniform for political reasons, but as they do more regularly, slow down and increase their volume and play their most antagonistic songs outside chapels and in areas with more Catholics. This mob thrive on intimidation – Amazing that they’re saying ‘nil to sectarianism’ in their ranks. They’re banned from marrying Catholics and are kicked out if they disobey sectarian commands from their generals.

  116. Wishart, Knox and Calvin would have recognised a democratic deficit when they saw it. Representative government either in church or state was what they sought and achieved for us all. They would have recoiled from today’s Orange Order that, in a jingoistic perversion, claims all of our war dead as their own and with a lazy contempt for their fellow citizens, claim themselves to be representative of the people. As a catholic – if I had lived then, I would have been a Covenanter….And if John Knox was voting on the 18th – he would be voting YES.

  117. The law should be applied impartially. If the law of 1936 is considered out of date, then it should be amended or repealed. I guess the CPS should be asked to consider prosecution.

  118. http://www.pirc.scotland.gov.uk/
    ^ For complaining about the police.

    Remaining assiduous (:D) the legislation requires consent from “a” Secratary of State. So technically Danny Alexander could sign off on it. Of course, nobody wants to, and after the problems with the OBA, it may well be politically convenient to punt someone from high levels of the police to retirement later should public outcry demand an answer.

    It is *not* the responsibility of the Orange Order to approach a Secretary of State on behalf of their Chief Polis, and indeed, such a representation could not comply with the legislation since the Orange Order cannot decide for their Chief Polis whether permission should be sought at all.

    So, this all makes the Polis look very, very Orange. Even though the Chief Polis may merely not want to aggrieve a political object that calls the UDA friend.

  119. Willie Hogg

    8 Sep, 2014 - 2:55 pm

    The Orange Order was founded to secure civil and religious freedom for protestants and by default others. They supported a protestent monarchy and a political union to secure these freedoms. The monarchy is no longer the power it once was and the Union no longer guarantees that it will be protestant. Why therefore do they not support an independant Scotland with a writen constitution which would guarantees their freedoms?

  120. Happy Orange walking on Saturday. GSTQ

  121. John Cormack

    11 Sep, 2014 - 2:52 pm

    Can’t believe all you so called anti establishment, anti fascists, are running to the law (who you despise ) trying your hardest to deny freedom of speech and the right to assembly. Guess what the parade isn’t illegal so fire away and make yourselves out to be bigger clowns than what you already are.

  122. As a member of the grand orange of scotland we are quite within our rights to hold this parade as you can go on glasgow city councils website and see that there are repulican parades held and also other marches from other groups aswell its not the people parading that causes the bother so dont bad mouth every member of the grand orange lodge of scotland or any bandsmen

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