The Independent have Jack Straw well and truly cornered:
Writing in the Mail on Sunday, Craig Murray, who was sacked as UK ambassador to Uzbekistan in 2004 after alleging that Britain used intelligence obtained by the CIA under torture, said he attended a meeting at the Foreign Office where he was told that “it was not illegal for us to use intelligence from torture as long as we did not carry out the torture ourselves” and claimed this policy came directly from Mr Straw.
The former Foreign Secretary said: “At all times I was scrupulous in seeking to carry out my duties in accordance with the law. I hope to be able to say more about this at an appropriate stage in the future.”
I hope so too, and I hope that the appropriate time is either at the Old Bailey or The Hague.
Straw has climbed down a bit from his days of power and glory, when he told the House of Commons, immediately after sacking me, that there was no such thing as the CIA extraordinary rendition programme and its existence was “Mr Murray’s opinion.” He no longer claims it did not exist and he no longer claims I am a fantasist. He now merely claims he was not breaking the law.
His claim of respect for the law is a bit dubious in the light of Sir Michael Wood’s evidence to the Chilcot Inquiry. Wood said that as Foreign Office Legal Adviser, he and his elite team of in-house FCO international lawyers unanimously advised Straw the invasion of Iraq would be an illegal war of aggression. Straw’s response? He wrote to the Attorney General requesting that Sir Michael be dismissed and replaced. And forced Goldsmith to troop out to Washington and get alternative advice from Bush’s nutjob Republican neo-con lawyers.
Jack Straw did not have any desire to act legally. He had a desire to be able to mount a legal defence of his illegal actions. That is a different thing.
Should any of us live to see the publication of the Chilcot Report, this will doubtless be clear, though probably as a footnote to page 862 of Annex VII. That is how the Westminster establishment works.
The SNP has weighed in on the side of the angels:
Revelations by the former UK ambassador to Uzbekistan of the UK’s knowledge and acceptance of torture must see those involved answer questions on what happened.
In an article in the Mail on Sunday, Mr Murray reveals that he attended a meeting at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office where he was told that “it was not illegal for us to use intelligence from torture as long as we did not carry out the torture ourselves” and revealed that this policy came directly from Jack Straw.
Mr Murray also reveals that “there was a deliberate policy of not writing down anything… because there should not be evidence of the policy.”
Craig Murray also states that “for the past year the British Ambassador in Washington and his staff have regularly been lobbying the US authorities not to reveal facts about the UK’s involvement in the CIA torture programme” and claims that is one of the reasons the full Senate report has not been published.
The SNP has called for a full judicial inquiry to be set up as a matter of urgency to get to get to the truth of who knew what and when.
Commenting, SNP Westminster Leader Angus Robertson MP said:
“Mr Murray’s revelation of the attitude taken by then Foreign Secretary Jack Straw only adds to the urgency with which we need a full judicial inquiry.
“Craig Murray’s article lifts the lid on the UK’s role in the human rights abuses that the US Senate has reported on and there can be no more attempts to avoid answering the tough questions that have been posed.
“Clearly answers are needed just as much from the politicians who led us at the time as from those directly involved in what was going on. The need for an independent judicial inquiry is now clear for all to see.
“It is also long past time that the findings of the Chilcot inquiry were published and there can be no more delays to that report being made public.
“There needs to be a full judicial inquiry to get to the bottom of the UK’s involvement in rendition flights that passed through UK territory and the UK’s wider knowledge of the abuses that the Senate has revealed.”
Craig Murray’s revelations can be viewed on page 25 of today’s Mail on Sunday
But with Malcolm Rifkind being promoted everywhere by the BBC to push his cover-up, it remains an uphill struggle.
Republicofscotland
18 Dec, 2014 – 4:52 pm
“The rules have been changed as the result of a lot of campaigning to stop discards. That is throwing dead fish back into the sea. It’s taken the EU a couple of decades to realise that his is not a valid conservation strategy.”
……………………………………………………………………………………….
I’m not sure on this one until I look into the issue a bit further but is it not the case that fish of certain species and fish of a small size have to be discarded at sea?
That certainly seems a waste from a human consumption viewpoint but discarding dead fish into the sea will undoubtedly feed other marine animals and mitigate damage to the ecosystem.
If the law changes to allow all fish that are caught to be landed I think that would be more detrimental to a sustainable fishing industry.
Anyone who brings up that tired old chestnut about Jordan being the Palestinian state confirms that he is a died-in-the-wool hasbarist.
But we knew that, didn’t we?
Former Polish President Confirms Existence of Secret CIA Torture Prison.
When will his British counterparts follow his example?
“From friend Macky on Squonk today:”
Thanks for advertising that great site, where you can read such insightful comments such as this one;
https://squonk.tk/blog/2014/01/20/the-general-discussion-thread/comment-page-30/#comment-12016
where the accuracy of the analysis iro of a certain Poster, was validated here on page one this very thread, when the aforementioned Poster attempted to debate with KOWN, and of course exposed himself for the dismal intellectual fraud that he is !
Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)
18 Dec, 2014 – 5:26 pm
“Is there any particular reason why you’ve taken “examples” from sixty to seventy years ago?”
…………………………………………………………………………………..
Well I did mention Chile and Venezuela Habbabkuk.
The prosecution of crimes against humanity has no time limit in international law.
Do you think the arrest and prosecution of Nazi criminals should stop because the crimes took place seventy plus years ago?
Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)
18 Dec, 2014 – 5:30 pm
“And are you sure that the govts of Syria (1949)and Iraq (1960) were democratic and that of Congo (1960) legitimate?”
……………………………………………………………………………………………..
Yes I am sure Habbabkuk, disprove me.
Lysias
“Anyone who brings up that tired old chestnut about Jordan being the Palestinian state confirms that he is a died-in-the-wool hasbarist.”
__________________
Have you ever seen a map showing the borders of mandate Palestine,Lysias?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PS – you still haven’t told us the name of the Oxford college where you claim to have read Greats.
Mr Scorgie
“Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)
18 Dec, 2014 – 5:30 pm
“And are you sure that the govts of Syria (1949)and Iraq (1960) were democratic and that of Congo (1960) legitimate?”
……………………………………………………………………………………………..
Yes I am sure Habbabkuk, disprove me.”
________________
No, Mr Scorgie. It is you who who made the claim, so it is up to you to back up your claim (with references and sources, as you would say). 🙂
Why should we not have a genetic marking of middle eastern tribes to once and for all show that Semites have interconnected for thousands of years, for a very long time, that they are genetically far more of one people than any of them would like to admit.
All those who believe to be of a better persuasion and interlect than the rest of us mere mortals, worldwide, are really brothers to those they are told to hate.
Maybe that is what concerned ol’ Zev Z/Jablonski, when he created this mad cult of Zionism.
Has anyone ever seen the announced, declared borders of Denmark, or Indonesia? and has anyone ever heard of declared borders of israel?
No? Well, they are still allowed to be in the UN, the cradle of their being. Like an unduly troubled and mentally challenged teenager they are hitting out at all and sundry, still, despite winning the 6 day war, lucky that, and despite ignoring mum UN and all she ever said. Is it now time for Mum to start with the hard lessons of life, growing up and living in coexistence with one’s brothers?
Maybe it will take a little more BDS
In fairness, no conclusion can be drawn on the ignoring of my question about support for China’s Mao, and Russia’s Stalin, unless we ask the question the other way around too –
How many progressives here wish to actively voice support for these mass killers?
*
As a reminder, I have a dispute with Habbabkuk. He maintains that most progressives support the likes of Mao and Stalin. I am confident that progressive liberals/ democratic socialists (of which I count myself one) do not support Mao/ Stalin etc. .
So far, only Doug Scorgie has supported my assertion, by which I hoped to prove Habbabkuk incorrect.
If anyone else – Mary, RoS, Macky, Fred, John Goss, Iain – would help me out here, I would appreciate it. Alternatively, tell me I’m wrong, and that you are all Stalinists.
glenn_uk, I don’t support Mao or Stalin.
Thank you, Clark. I hesitated to add you name to the list, because you don’t post very often here now. Your posts are missed.
I feel Habbabkuk – along with many on his side of the fence – has an incorrect view of liberal progressives. He seems to think they (we) see nothing good with the UK, the US, etc., and also that we see nothing bad in the old Soviet Union, red China and god only knows what else. A lot of effort has gone into maintaining this view, to demonise us.
If Habbabkuk et al could realise that we’re not all apologists for genocidal maniacs, that we are not blind to the positive sides of our society (because there are a few!), perhaps we might understand there is a bit of common ground after all.
We can begin with making it clear – as you have done (thanks again) – that we do not support Mao and Stalin. Baby steps.
Glen. 12 41pm
Maybe they perceive your question is just an extension of Dad’s.
They have seen endless episodes of Dad hijacking the comments and successfully distracting it from its topic. So choose not to feed him.
I don’t always have their wisdom. 🙂
The only support for mass killers active here comes from those who come here to wage “public diplomacy” on behalf of mass killers. You know who they are and they aren’t on your list.
@Sofia: Ok, but could you please clarify, and say (for the record, if you will) that you are not a fan of Stalin or Mao? It’s not a distraction, I’m not trying to divert or manipulate here. It’s quite genuine.
Let us know that you’re not an admirer of Stalin and Mao – just that, no drawn out extensions – and you’ll be helping me make a very significant point, and might just make Habbabkuk have a rethink.
I hesitate to put this on you, but by failing to support my notion that progressive liberals do not like Stalin/Mao, you’ll be proving him correct.
Putin is angry. He knows, and said it will take Russia’s economy two years to recover. Putin is also mindful America is funding lethal arms to Ukraine. Russia’s woes were of course inexorable against a merciless triangle, Britain, America and Israel and their cohorts.
http://rt.com/usa/215763-obama-russia-sanctions-sign/
This three dimensional strong arm is potent, dominant and strong. It has blue blood transfused with the finest minds in Britain, dollars from America and the cunning of Zionist Israel. Zionist minds passed down diabolical knowledge and devious purpose over thousands of years from the shelkel adam, the rubric, the laws, the sine qua non to maintain an exchange system over barter and gift… and murder.
Later this triangle was complete with destructive mastery such as poisoning the water and contaminating blood of the challengers.
With the present tug-of-war becoming heavyweight and as civilisation ebbs down to the wire, a vision of nuclear aftermath enters the event horizon.
In this vision I have seen tens of millions of people dying from radiation fall-out, the heating of the body from the inside out; the bone marrow dies, the tremors and convulsions as the nervous system dies; blood floods from the anus and vagina; the blistering blindness and steaming burns.
Consciously intention can rescue civilisation from that fate. I myself believe it is possible, like a baby’s first smile, to take that leap in consciousness towards continuum. It means to me we either take the virtual blue blood pill or the red, the Russian pill, the reflect or reverse, the remedy.
Sadly I see no shades of grey in-between.
Biased: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/putin-speech-president-says-russian-bear-wont-be-chained-by-the-west-as-he-warns-of-tough-two-years-ahead-9934532.html
Transcript: http://rt.com/news/215471-putin-press-conference-updates/
Really sinister and disgusting the targeted Zersetzen/TI of Mary on this blog by the usual torturers e.g Habbabkuk,Res Dis,Kempe,Jemand et al.
Deeply disturbing gang tactics.
Loved Silverstein’s deconstructiuon of the hasbara handbook>
” Cynicism and Huckesterism….vague sloganeering…promoting emotionalism over fact”
Run along you tawdry vulgar fakirs.
Indeed.
Habbabkuk,et al..
And did you kneel at the feet of Luntz?
And did you smell the clay that governed you as you kissed it,prone?
Was he a God to you?
Did he prevail upon your easily bought yet already formed hysterical prejudices?
Did you need asking twice?
Ben: I cannot help but be sympathetic to someone who stands up to the classroom bully and his weak-willed gang. Obama is demanding that:
Russia must meet all its obligations, including debts, while denying to Russia access to West-controlled markets of capital and refinancing;
Russia must withdraw completely from Ukraine;
Russia must not be left any more to “its own instincts,” and must cease any efforts to win hearts and minds through its own version of the news;
Even these conditions are not final; conditions over Crimea and other issues would then follow once Russia surrenders over Ukraine to the US and NATO.
That is why Putin made his reference to attempts to chain the bear, and it was rather effective.
All he is doing is standing up for his nation’s independence. If you stand up to a bully when they are used to pushing you around what happens? There’s no need for nuclear war over this…
Oops… @Mark, not Ben but really to anyone whether they support Putin’s stand, or who think he should be stopped because he is not to be trusted and the natural order of things that US is “he who shall be obeyed”.
More BLiar/Wendi Deng stuff in the Mail.
Blair loses his cool in Wendi grilling as he says he will ‘never’ reveal truth about relationship with Murdoch’s ex-wife
Affair allegations prompted Rupert Murdoch to divorce Wendi Deng
Blair refused to comment when asked about the claims directly
Tells Economist magazine the issue is ‘not something I will ever talk about’
Profile piece says Blair then banged cup so loudly into saucer that it spilled
‘A large, dark pool of sweat has suddenly appeared under his armpit, spreading across an expensive blue shirt,’ says journalist
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2879924/Blair-loses-cool-Wendi-grilling-says-never-reveal-truth-relationship-Murdoch-s-ex-wife.html
This is the Economist article.
Life after power
The loneliness of Tony Blair
Celebrated abroad and reviled at home, the former prime minister struggles to fulfil his ambitions
Dec 20th 2014
http://www.economist.com/news/christmas-specials/21636603-celebrated-abroad-and-reviled-home-former-prime-minister-struggles-fulfil
Rot in your own hell Tone.
A win for Russell Brand and the campaign. People power.
US investors set to sell New Era estate in London after protests
Westbrook Partners close to transferring ownership to affordable housing provider after tenants’ campaign against rent rises
18 December 2014
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/dec/18/us-investors-set-sell-new-era-estate-london-protests-westbrook
David Cameron is hurting Israel by ignoring Palestine’s plight
If the Prime Minister was a true ‘Conservative friend of Israel’, he would be prepared to offer friendly criticism where it is so obviously due
You have to look very hard to find any details of Tuesday’s Conservative Friends of Israel lunch. Among the mainstream newspapers, only The Times reported it, under the headline “Cameron attacks Labour over Israel”.
I was not there myself, but I am told that more than 110 Conservative MPs accepted, along with 14 Cabinet ministers, making around 125 Tory MPs in all, more than one third of the parliamentary party. In addition there were candidates, peers, party donors and others.
No other country (with the possible exception of the United States) could draw so many Right-wing politicians to lunch. Yet it is worth bearing in mind that there is no such organisation as the Conservative Friends of the Palestinians.
Yesterday’s audience listened to a series of speeches in favour of Israel – with scarcely a word of criticism. Cameron did refer to the “illegal settlements” on the West Bank, asserting that they were “unhelpful.”
/..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/11301038/David-Cameron-is-hurting-Israel-by-ignoring-Palestines-plight.html
Glenn_uk
You are very far from being alone. I don’t support Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot or any other crazed mass killer of humanity. Neither do I think anyone else here does. The idea that someone vaguely on the political left must thereby be a supporter of Stalin is as delusional as suggesting that someone on the political right must be an admirer of Mussolini.
Habbabkuk
I return from attending affairs of state to find you seemingly inviting people to condemn China.
I have no problem condemning China, particularly for their annexation of Tibet, which appals me.
I have a number of questions I would like to put to you.
Firstly, do you agree with my claim that Britain, having been at war with 90% of the world at one time or another, is the most warlike country in history? And if not, who is?
(Source: ‘All the Countries We’ve Ever Invaded: And the Few We Never Got Round To’ Stuart Laycock.)
Secondly, in view of the fact that the US has bombed more than 40 nations since 1945, would you agree that in the post war world America is the greatest perpetrator of crimes against humanity?
Thirdly, would you agree that though America’s military attacks on the rest of the world since 1945 dwarf those of China and Russia, the media consensus in the west presents it the other way round, lauding the US as a benign force for good and presenting China and Russia invariably as international villains?
Thanks in advance
Don’t feed the troll please.
Glen. 1 34pm
“…I hesitate to put this on you, but by failing to support my notion that progressive liberals do not like Stalin/Mao, you’ll be proving him correct.”
No. You know that such demands arise out of an organised and relentless campaign on behalf of current mass-killers. Your question is largely ignored because, whatever your own motive, it arises out of this campaign.
Check out how many threads get distracted with these diversions and the simple tactics of denunciation, faux imdignation, smearing and false trails that characterise the hasbara method.
Read my posts here over the last couple of years, or those of the people on your list and you’ll find no evidence of sympathies with historic mass-killers of any nation or era. I’m wrong you can come back with a credible link.
At the same time you are keeping us from addressing the real issues which this blog community seeks to examine, understand and address.
Consider the post that follows yours. It addresses with passion and rationality the underlying issues of our weasel-worded ones who see us, like the inhabitants of Ukraine, as inconvenient obstacles to their own glorious manifest destiny.
We can choose not to be divided and ruled.
Daily, and indiverse ways, most contributers to this blog take a stand for basic and internationally recognised rules regarding human rights. I know you know that.
…
Mark. 2 18am
“With the present tug-of-war becoming heavyweight and as civilisation ebbs down to the wire, a vision of nuclear aftermath enters the event horizon.
In this vision I have seen tens of millions of people dying from radiation fall-out, the heating of the body from the inside out; the bone marrow dies, the tremors and convulsions as the nervous system dies; blood floods from the anus and vagina; the blistering blindness and steaming burns.”
Yes. It is only by paying attention, seeking and speaking facts and developing our powers of compassion and intention* that we humans will avert nuclear war.
Thank you. Your posts are an inspiration.
* And providing sound links!
…
Here’s a link to a thoughtful and informed article on why the people of Donbas are just in the way.
Ukraine As Seen Through The Eyes Of A Geologist
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/ukraine-as-seen-through-eyes-of.html
Correction.
If I’m wrong you can come back with a credible link.
…
And don’t do a Dre and just post one that says nothing like you claim then, when you get found out, angrily accuse your target of “ducking and diving” but really meaning it anyway.
Prediction (No I’m not pyschic, I just have eyes and a memory): Dre will groom a bit with some sound noises and links, gaining a bit of cred before striking again in a fortnight or two, at Dad’s chosen target of the day. YAWN!
I say, you chaps, let’s go back to my place and get like bladdered yeah?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/david-cameron-hosts-ibiza-rave-4835273
NI peace process on hold while PM gets down wiv Ebenezer Goode….disturbing (but probably not authentic) image
Thanks for the Oborne article Mary, its astonishing that so many of our wrecking MP’s are so deluded, but it shows were Britain derives its foreign policy brass neck, favouring some unaligned rogue region lording it over its neighbours, before looking after its people at home.
Sofia, that was a rather refreshing link from a geologists view, thanks, he made a great point for the interconnectivity that lies at the heart of a future successful Ukrainian economy, versus a militarist warmongering western attitude wanting to destroy all that because they’d like to get at Russia and Putin.
glenn_uk; “I hesitate to put this on you, but by failing to support my notion that progressive liberals do not like Stalin/Mao, you’ll be proving him correct”
Who is the bigger fool, a fool, or the person who takes him seriously ?
That you see nothing wrong with asking people if they support the crimes of Mao or Stalin, really speaks negative volumes for you; try stopping people in the street and asking the same questions, and you will be lucky not to escape without a black eye or two, as this line of questioning will be perceived as grossly insulting, insinuating that they may indeed support such crimes.
The fact is that asking such questions, which are both ludicrous & insulting, is the dead give-away that the person posing them is a few slices short of a loaf, living in a fantasy alternative reality to most of decent Society. In this fantasy reality, where logic stands on its head, I could for instance assumed because you haven’t condemned the disappearance of those Mexican students, that you must therefore be a supporter of the Mexican Government, or because you haven’t condemn the persecutions of Albinos in Tanzania, that you must be racist towards Albinos.
I find it astonishing that this actually has to be spelt out.