Das Zwiebel! :-)

However much I dislike the current government and dislike the direction politics has taken in recent times, I don't think I need to point out that this is totally over the top. Incompetent and unethical Brown may be, but Hitler he is not; nor is it in any way clever or funny to make light of Romanies, Jews et al being exterminated. This is more clear evidence of your total lack of judgement. Two things are for sure: one, your removal from the foreign office was entirely appropriate and long delayed; two, your association with any seat of learning in whatever capacity shames those institutions.

kardinal

You are an idiot. Of course it's over the top - as was for example John Cleese's "Don't mention the war" sketch. It's called humour.

You are a neo-con troll who is becoming very dull. So dull, in fact, you can't see that I am not only making fun of NuLab, but also of holocaust deniers.

Idiot.

Well done, Craig. Very funny. Not as funny as Tom Watson instructing Carter-Fuck. This will now run and run - just what big Broon wanted.

Jeeez! Kardinal Birk utzki !

Vor ist der 'jolly old blighty sense of humour, don't cha know me old cock sparra'.....Himmel!

Or should that be - schweinhund. LOL

kardinal, you must be the life and soul of any party... just by not turning up!.

Everyone can always gain a few moral Brownie points by sneering at 'holocaust deniers', whoever they are.

There is, however, one holocaust fact I have come across recently that demands an explanation, in my opinion.

When I was a young fellow and the Auschwitz horror was first placed before society by the mainstream media (in the late 1960's, I think), I remember very clearly that we were told that of the 6,000,000 Jews who died during the war 4,000,000 were industrially exterminated in the Auschwitz camp.

It seems this figure was revised to 1.1 million in 1983. I did not know that until very recently.

This is a reduction of almost 3,000,000......yet the total remains at 6,000,000.

This situation surely demands an explanation.

This is not a trivial matter.

If such wild errors or mispronouncements have been made on this issue in the past, is it paranoid to see a possible connection between such anomalies and the other overwhelming fact about the holocaust.....that discussing the subject in any kind of investigative or questioning way is completely TABOO in our society and across Europe and the USA. I understand that two or three 'holocaust deniers' have been jailed in Germany and France.

I know little else about the subject but surely David Irving's statements or research or whatever should be discredited by provable facts rather than by ridicule and abuse.

kardinal says:
>I don't think I need to point out that this is totally over the top.

Is it, though? Are you saying that US/UK illegal action has killed only one million in Iraq, and that is only one sixth of the mortality due to Nazism, and therefore the comparison is 'over the top'? I don't think so. Illegal killing on an industrial scale is (I hope you agree) a bad thing - do the precise numbers matter?

You echo the faux moral outrage of the Labourites who whine at the SNP's ending of school visits to Auschwitz. It seems to me that you wish to set up some sort of religious or mystic trope. The Nazis were evil, never forget, always remember - and since *we* are telling you this, *we* must be different. In fact you are of course the same - the differing numbers are mere accountancy, the evil is identical.

KevinB

It is not taboo exactly on this site. You can discuss if the Ford Model T really existed too, if you like. But the evidence is overwhelming that the Holocaust happened - to the groups mentioned above.

I have met Polish, Jewish and gypsy survivors. There was a programme of mass extermination beyond any doubt.

In my experience those who want to deny it, are trying to fit the facts into some other prior political theory. The same goes for those who deny Stalin's or Mao's mass killings - though the political theories tend to vary in each case.

Facts, though, are stubborn things. And the fact remains that the Nazis had a process of mass extermination.

I should add that I also met ordinary soldiers who liberated the camps who are very good eye-witnesses.

I was involved in events to commemmorate the 50th anniversary of the liberation.

Godwin's Law states you are now a complete tool Craig, whatever you actually meant to say.

JimmyGiro's law states that:
anyone using Godwin's law, probably masturbates when they hear of children being adopted by same sex foster parents.

Dear kardinal

What Craig is doing is to point out how daft the current situation appears to be using humour.

Given his account of what happened to him under Labour, it is understandable that he holds deep views against them.

I suspect that he would still make a decent ambassador and be a credit to any higher education establishment.

He speaks his mind forcefully and is direct.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Jimmygiro - your train of thought lost me there

Mae

Welcome back. We last saw you defending Lord Taylor of Blackburn against allegations of corruption, which was a bit like claiming Madonna is a virgin. At the time you vehemently denied being a NuLabour troll. But here you are again when NuLabour are under attack.

I equate the use of Godwin's law, with those who fall back on political correctness to 'win' an argument by defaulting the opposition on mere form.

I see the bigotry of political correctness as undermining criticism; which in turn compromises the checks and balances of extremes.

I suspect that a society that allows children to be taken from heterosexual parents, then fostered by same sex couples, is a society that has been quelled by political correctness from objecting.

And since nobody means to contradict themselves, those that support this state of affairs must enjoy the 'virtue':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5Yt-OzyD3g

Jimmy Giro, well put.

Maybe soon we will be talking about Damian's Law - anyone protesting about the calumny that has become John Smith's party can be pre-emptively sent to the funny farm.

JimmyGiro

Thanks. Could have said that the first time!

Craig,

You are addressing me as though I am denying that a holocaust and mass killings of Jews took place.

I am not doing so.

....but you have made my point for me.

....there will be no discussion of the issue whatsoever.

.....and you think this is a healthy state of affairs?

The terror of even raising this subject, the tyranny of guilt that has landed on all our heads, has empowered a hideous injustice against an innocent people, the Palestinians.

Their land has been taken and four months ago we sat idly by while they were being slaughtered like rats in a bucket.

What do YOU think has paralysed our humanity and disabled our souls to the point where a civil servant who reacted emotionally against this outrage was arrested for 'inciting religious hatred'. The only Gaza-related legal action there has been.

I know where you stood on Gaza, Craig. I read your posts at the time......but can't you see any connection? Should we really forbidden from asking even the most reasonable of questions about 'the holocaust'?

You see, I'm suspicious of taboos. You get exactly the same reaction if you raise questions about 9/11 despite the manifold proveable lies we have been fed about that day......

......in spite of the fact that only this week...Quote:

"The senior counsel to the 9/11 Commission - John Farmer - says that the government agreed not to tell the truth about 9/11, echoing the assertions of fellow 9/11 Commission members who concluded that the Pentagon were engaged in deliberate deception about their response to the attack."

and despite the fact that active (unexploded) thermitic material has recently been found in the dust of the WTC's....
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/88685

One might get away with posting these outrageous things on you blog, Craig.....but discuss such issues in parliament or the mainstream media....?

Never.

It ain't gonna happen.

Bad news for all of us methinks.

Now you mention it, Hitler made a serious mistake by paying too little attention to Goebbels and too much to people like the generals, Doenitz, and Goering. In other words, he was stuck in the WW1 mindset of crushing obstacles by overpowering force. Today's governments intuitively understand that Goebbels had a better way: why fight (even if you are stronger) when you can simply con, bluff, charm, and lie your way to your objectives?

The Neverending Story...

http://tinyurl.com/d2nr6u

More...

http://tinyurl.com/davlhp

I told you it was "The Neverending Story".

not only in bad taste but lacking any humor.

must do better

Anytime anyone "questions" aspects of the Jewish holocaust that don't make sense, or present anomalies or events that contradict the "official" narrative, one gets slammed with that "denier" label, and face incarceration in much of continental Europe.
It's utterly nonsensical that the most natural and normal human process of analysis and reasoning is forbidden wrt to the Jewish experience in WW2. That Jewish history alone is so sacrosanct.
Tons of my own research and reading later, I'm a holocaust skeptic in that the actual tally of victims, esp the Jewish numbers, is greatly exaggerated.
Exactly how much in monetary reparations did the Gypsies, Poles, et al extract compared to the Jewish victims of Nazism?

Peter, you're typing out loud.

Sally

Over a million Christian Poles died in the extermination camps too. As I said, I have spoken persoanally to actual eye witnesses. I have no ides why you don't want to accept it, but there you are.

I don't think anyone can seriously doubt that there was a deliberate extermination policy in the latter stages of the war. There are however legitimate questions to be asked about the accuracy of the numbers.

As KevinB pointed out, the official total for Auschwitz has been quietly downgraded from 4 million to 1.1 million. Nevertheless, in Germany it remains a criminal offence even to question the 6 million figure. This criminalises not only free speech and proper historical research but also simple arithmetic.

Does it really matter? From a moral perspective perhaps not, but from a financial point of view it certainly does because the 6 million figure is the basis on which Germany's reparation payments to Israel is calculated.

Another thing about the Holocaust - giving it a capital H as though it were a sacrosanct religious tenet and criminalising heretics who dare question it - is that it tends to obscure and marginalise our emotional, moral and intellectual responses to other aspects of the war.

World War II was full of horrors: there was the callous and unnecessary bombing of Dresden; there were the two nuclear bombs on Japan. Above all there was the horrific war between Germany and the Soviet Union that killed tens of millions of men. These events were the result of militarism pure and simple and the lesson ought perhaps to be that wars and militarism are bad.

By focusing principally on the Jewish holocaust however we are encouraged to reach the opposite conclusion: that wars and militarism are good and are the legitimate tools by which the righteous defeat tyranny.

This mindset has been the driving ethos of at least three instances of military adventurism in the past ten years - in Serbia, Afghanistan and Iraq - yet in reality these have been moral and humanitarian disasters.

MJ

MMM, I wasn't concentrating exclusively on the Jewish holocaust. That's why I mentioned all the others whi died in the camps. I don't suppose precise numbers will ever be known. Stalin was as bad.

So what? Frankly people who can't hear any mention of the Nazi mass extermination, without seeking to jump in and downplay it, scare me just as much as those who wish to play on it for current day political advantage.

You are Mike Godwin and I claim my five pounds.

Not trolling, though to be fair my previous comment was a little curt/concise.
NOT nu lab, believe me, don't believe me, your choice. The world is not red or blue, but very, very grey (Power to the People, Yes, Prime Minister, says it all for me).

I am not questioning your topic or criticism of it, just your choice of analogy. Your writing on here is a poor reflection compared to Murder in Samarkand, which I borrowed on my last venture from under my bridge since my last trolling. Not finished it yet as I have a few books on the go at any one time, but so far, the musings of two different minds.

JimmyGiro, your knowledge of niche pornography astounds me.

Apart from that, eh! Today is a good day! To each, enjoy their own, though not to the detriment of another if poss.

Quote:

"So what? Frankly people who can't hear any mention of the Nazi mass extermination, without seeking to jump in and downplay it, scare me just as much as those who wish to play on it for current day political advantage."

I don't think I've ever noticed that you were 'scared' by people using 'the holocaust' for political advantage.

You really think trying to get a more accurate perspective on the holocaust is to 'downplay it', to callously underplay its significance?

Let me tell you, I am not for that at all. Let us have a public examination of its full signinificance. That would be an excellent idea.

I am 58 years old and have never taken the slightest interest in this subject until I realised in 2005 that Jewish interests were driving much of what I consider wicked in the world today. At the same time I allowed myself (yes it was difficult) to admit that the 'holocaust' was being shoved in our faces nearly every day of the year in the mainstream media.

Why is this happening?

This is a very important question.

The world is in a terrible hole, trapped by financial terrorism that will not go away. The 'derivatives' nightmare (maybe more that one thousand trillion dollars of worthless assets hidden away inside the banking system) has occurred as a result of policies set up by Robert Rubin, Larry Summers, Alan Greenspan, all Jews. The big scam is over now it falls to the public to absorb the losses.

Our society is directed by Jewish interests, has no one noticed?

We are now a Zionist not a Christian country. Christianity is under relentless attack*.

Israel last week, through Shimon Peres, made serious threats to attack Iran.

Ariel Sharon openly claimed that "the Jewish people control America".
He is quite correct.

These elite Jews (and their various Anglo-Saxon and international masonic partners) could destroy us all. Our children could all die because of their poisonous activities. Ordinary Jews are no more part of this than you and I except that they are even more brainwashed by the holocaust than we are into supporting the Zionist agenda(94% of Jews supported the attacks on Gaza).

This is mind-control and brain-washing of the most poisonous and dangerous kind.

Downplay the holocaust?

No way.

Let's really give the issue some air.....

......and began asking some very tough questions indeed.

Or would you prefer a world war?

...Because that's what we're going to get.

*
http://www.christianlegalcentre.com/

Is this of any significance. Is there a diabolical plot afoot out there to create wars and chaos that will result in a one-world government and a centralised the banking system?

http://www.bollyn.com/index.php?id=10095

Sorry to wander off-topic Craig but have you seen this, Galloway's letter to the Charities Commission?

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22412.htm

It would appear the Commission has managed to make Viva Palestina a charity (without it even applying to be one) and then used its powers to freeze the organisation's bank account!

Oh stop twisting words, KevinB! Craig didn’t imply he was scared *of* anyone; he meant scared *by* the attitude – because the potential of malicious propaganda to foment ethnic hatred is indeed chilling.

Nothing wrong with questioning facts accepted by the majority of schalors, but I suggest you do so in a more academic context, with access to proper resources to settle your doubts one way or the other. At 58, you’re not too old to take on PhD research into this topic if it really fires you up. If you find substantial evidence of mass deception, that would be aworthy discovery indeed. However, here you and others are simply hijacking a debate on contemporary UK politics to with your own misgivings about historical accuracy (Craig didn’t assert anything about numbers) and venting your anger towards the perceived economic domination of those with Jewish ancestry. You make it clear that your interest is not actually dispassionate and academic, but is intertwined with a strong contempt towards Semitic elitism and its influence in business. This we may have anticipated; you are playing to type.

Is there reason for us to be alarmed at such opportunistic anti-Semitic ranting? Yes. Similar resentment towards Jewish elitism and economic domination was prevalent in Germany in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, and you know what resulted (even if you dispute the numbers!). Be mindful of cultural attitudes. Let’s kick the economic bullies out because they’re bullies, and not because they’re Jewish. Conflate the two and you cross a very dangerous line.

It’s not only Jewish people who are greedy manipulators. That kind of thinking would let most of our politicians off the hook as unwitting pawns in some kind of grand Jewish plot. Such absurd absolutist propaganda is very sinister indeed. No. it shouldn’t be banned - it should be aired and challenged. Thank you for giving us a measure of your true colours.

Independent thinking is not being suppressed on this forum. You’re being challenged because people don’t agree with you. Further ranting will generate discontent by obscuring the point of Craig’s message. There are plenty of more discussion boards for your pet topic should you wish to look into it in further depth.

Good luck with your research, and I look forward to seeing the indubitable evidence you uncover in the appropriate forum. Yes, please air the issue but not here. Take it elsewhere and post the URL.

I think the rest of us understand Craig’s point clearly, all more for sharpening it with cutting satire. Let’s campaign to put the right people in the dock - for the right reasons.

nexus,

I don't really disagree with anything you say but I would remind you that Craig did provoke my initial response by lumping something together in a sneering way with 'holocaust deniers'....

....i.e. way beyond the pale.

This stuff annoys me. I read an article by a writer I used to admire, Howard Jacobson. In The Independent he wrote, "People who want to argue about the holocaust want to exterminate the Jews all over again."

I might understand the impulse that drove him to say it but that is still absolute rubbish.

Some questions are absolutely fair and it is shocking to me, at least, that some of the most radical of our thinkers are prepared to enforce this taboo, given the proven dangers of doing so.

A similar prohibition hangs over the 'conspiracy theories' surrounding 9/11 (9 professional scientists have put their name to a research paper identifying super nano-thermate in the dust particles from the WTCs on 9/11 last week. This is stone-cold proof of the use of explosives in the towers on 9/11. Who put them there? Osama Bin Laden?).

Surely you can see the mortal peril that threatens us all by co-operating with media taboos of this kind.

For so-called radicals to play this game is a kind of gatekeeping and, in my opinion, it is also a kind of cowardice for which we are all likely to pay a terrible price.

By the way nexus, I think you'll find that some of the people who have undertaken the kind of research you recommend for me, have been or currently are in jail.

Many decent historians and scientists have been jailed or fined for disputing the official holocaust story: in Germany, Austria, France, Belgium, the Czech Republic, Israel, Poland and other countries. It is, to my knowledge, the only facet of history for which people can be punished for even doing research as to the numbers of Jews who died, for example. Yet the most famous prison camp of all, Auschwitz, has officially reduced the death-toll there, several times since it was first included in the magic 6 million total. Magic, because the number has remained 6 million, despite these reductions.

A scientist named Germar Rudolf was sent to prison, in Germany, basically for the “crime” of proving that Zyklon B could not have been used to kill massive numbers of people in the so-called "gas chambers" at Auschwitz, because only minute traces of its reactive components could be found in the walls of one of the buildings in question; only enough to indicate that it may have been a delousing chamber. Rudolf was also fired from his job at the Max Planck Institute, all because he believed that his fellow countrymen had been accused of, and were still being punished for, crimes that were never committed.

No doubt there were some cruel and vicious guards, just as there were at Abu Graib prison, but typhus and other diseases were the real killers in the forced-labour camps, which were still being used to produce war materials, almost to the end, and someone has pointed out that the efficient Germans would not have used such a dangerous method as poison gas to kill maybe hundreds of people at one time, then have to wait for hours for the remaining gas to disperse, even with the use of energy-wasteful extractor fans.

Bearing in mind what happens to the crews of submarines when they sink, it would have been far simpler, cheaper, efficient and probably even more humane to crowd people into a low-ceiling, airtight room, close the airtight doors and suffocate them. As horrible as the thought is, it would take far less time for the victims to die; there would be no cost for chemicals and no waiting for the next cycle for fear of the executioners, themselves, being killed by any remaining gas.

To me, that is one of the most compelling reasons why not to believe in the gas-chamber story, because, no matter what else they may have been, during that period, the Germans were not stupid.

"
A scientist named Germar Rudolf was sent to prison, in Germany, basically for the “crime” of proving that Zyklon B could not have been used to kill massive numbers of people in the so-called "gas chambers" at Auschwitz, because only minute traces of its reactive components could be found in the walls of one of the buildings in question; only enough to indicate that it may have been a delousing chamber."

Except the concentration of Zyklon B required to kill lice is higher than that to kill humans. The Leuchter report has been thoroughly debunked yet it is still quoted by holocaust denying idiots.

Bob Gom’s is a typical comment from someone who refuses to see the logic in the much simpler suffocation scenario, and who is unable to refrain from insulting someone who happens to have an opinion with which they disagree.

Whether or not Leuchter's report was “thoroughly debunked” does not explain why the Germans would have gone to the trouble, expense and risk of exterminating large numbers of human beings when there was a much simpler, safer and cheaper method available to them.

Furthermore, those who question what they feel to be unproven testimony are not denying anything; they are asking that proof be provided, in fair and open debate and beyond a reasonable doubt, that certain events actually took place. You should also be aware that the threat of being imprisoned for speaking one’s mind, in the case of the events under discussion, could well be the thin end of a very large wedge, and is likely to spread to other topics, even ones which people like you think that they should be free to think about and discuss, in a reasonable and civilized manner, in order to make up their own minds as to what actually happened during any specified period in history.

Stop dodging the matter. Do you accept that concentration of Zyklon B required to kill lice is higher than that to kill humans?

This is a response to Bob Gom’s post in which he asks: “Do you accept that concentration of Zyklon B required to kill lice is higher than that to kill humans?”

Apart from the lack of quantitative details in the proposition, whether I accept or reject it, is beside the point. The fact is that humans can be killed by suffocation far more effectively, safely and economically than they can be killed using cyanide gas. But I doubt that the same applies to lice.

However, these are matters which the Zionist lobbies in an increasing number of countries are attempting to prevent us discussing, as the news item which I have copied, below, attests to.

Please note that Mr Tobin’s conviction does not appear to have involved a jury. It seems he will be sentenced purely on the basis that he was in contempt of court. In other words, no test has been made to determine if what he has been publishing on his website is true, or not. Therefore, no burden has been placed on anyone else, individuals or organizations, to prove that what he has published is false.

Can this truly be called justice? It sounds more like witch hunting, to me.

Thursday, 16 April 2009
'Holocaust denier' convicted in Australia

SYDNEY (AFP) — An alleged Holocaust denier wanted in Germany was found guilty of criminal contempt in Australia Thursday for defying court orders to stop publishing offensive material on the Internet.

Gerald Frederick Toben, 64, was convicted in the Federal Court on 24 counts of contempt of court after continuing to publish material about Jews and the Holocaust on his Adelaide Institute website, despite 2002 orders to stop.

Judge Bruce Lander said Toben, who will be sentenced later this month, had steadfastly refused to comply with the law.

He did not accept that freedom of speech "does not include the freedom to publish material calculated to offend, insult or humiliate or intimidate people because of their race, colour or national or ethnic origin", the judge said.

Toben told reporters he did not regret his actions, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation reported.
"If you believe in something and you want to have that freedom to express your opinions then you should be prepared for sacrifices," he said.

Toben was arrested in Britain in October last year under a European Union arrest warrant issued by Germany but a bid by German authorities to have him extradited to face charges of Holocaust denial failed.

He faces charges in Germany of publishing material on the Internet "of an anti-Semitic and/or revisionist nature" which denies, approves of, or plays down the Holocaust.

Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany and offenders can face up to five years in jail.