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interestingly enough Wiki has Jean-Claude Deronzier as mayor of Doussard from 2008-2014,
his wife Claudie Deronzier has been heavily involved in the cycle club for years, perhaps further co-incidence?
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=fr&u=http://doussardveloclub.unblog.fr/le-club/&usg=ALkJrhijqaZZ6pLMzJdUDyE-JHeGWXNsQA
@ Good In Parts, 2 Jun, 2015 – 10:01 pm
Placed centre stage, everyone around her dead. Mother, husband, former husband. Daughter left for dead.
You have put it in a nutshell. I don’t know what kind of “operative” she was, if any, but the history of that lady is a lot more complex and has many more angles to it than that of Saad, who is an open book in comparison.
In the past, intelligence agencies (plus major terrorist / paramilitary organisations and other non-state actors) could forge passports and issue false identities with relative ease. Nowadays, that is no longer possible; even the Mossad is reduced to borrowing the identities of recent immigrants and to having its agents apply for genuine papers under false pretences
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/The-real-Michael-Bodenheimer-keeps-a-low-profile
Thus, her pattern of obtaining papers under false pretences could indeed be indicative of something fishy. Regarding the question of whom she might have worked for, we need to look at what kind of access she had. Surely she would not have been able to procure high-grade military, scientific or political intelligence, but, wherever she went, she would have had easy access to the local Iraqi ex-pat communities, who would have felt morally compelled to take this single woman under their wings. Now, who would care about the goings-on within those communities? Firstly, the government of Iraq (the country in which she grew up and which would have found it easiest to recruit her), secondly all countries with a strategic interest in Iraq. I would put my money on the Iraqis, or on certain factions within Iraq.
So, people do get bumped off in Europe for political reasons.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32972401
@ Good in Parts. Thank you for pointing out the other indications of SAH’s intelligence connections. Much of this seems to be hearsay and rumours, but I guess that no one would seriously doubt the basic proposition. However, I accept (@ NFFB) that these connections may not have had anything to do with his death.
@ James. Yes, point taken. The WBM theory is long on conjecture, short on facts. Like you, I have pondered on the existence of so many (apparent) coincidences. But coincidences can be the result of pure random chance (see here): http://www.csicop.org/si/show/coincidences_remarkable_or_random/
In analyzing information, since our minds are programmed to discern patterns and make connections, we discover extraordinary coincidences, which may lead to the truth, but which are just as likely to lead us away from it.
The problem with the lone Nutter theory, is how long would the gunman have been waiting for some prey to arrive ?
If none arrived, would he have gone home for his supper and returned the next day, if he was waiting for a foreign tourist, he could have sat up there for days, the high summer season was over.
Unless as Monsieur Mirabells said, the hunting season was not due to start until the Sunday and he thought the shots he heard was someone practicing in the days before.
In this scenario the gunman hit someone whilst aiming at some sort of target, it does not sound plausible to then go through with such a massacre.
I would think The Lone Nutter or Lone Wolf theories are tosh.
MN, the gunman was skilled to teh extent th
to the extent he was able to continue firing at the windows or window level whilst the car was moving, the whole event lasting about a minute.
M.
The magazine changes must also have been rapid. In my opinion that would be a skill specific to Lugers given its unusual action. So, not fully transferable from other types.
If the weapon was a last minute purchase (for its untraceability) then the killer has, or had, another Luger to practice with.
I suspect a level of practice bordering on the obsessive.
A puzzling aspect is the semi-pro nature of it all. There was a media report, to paraphrase, that the shooter went from one victim to another, to another and so on. That sorta sounds obsessive to me, like OCD sufferers who keep going back to check that they had locked the door.
Given Peter’s astute observation about the pharmacy as the new ‘drop-in centre’, I hope the gendarmes found a way around patient privacy and checked the till rolls for OCD med sales handled by our favourite pharmacist.
On the other hand(*), one could see this as part of a ‘once bitten, twice shy’ pattern. I have posited that SM chose fight and then SAH chose flight. If SM played dead then retaliated during a magazine change it could have caught the shooter unawares.
For this to occur the shooter must have inadvertantly approached so close that SM was ‘under the guns’.
If something like this happened, then clearly the shooter recovered and probably expended some extra rounds on SM.
As a kind of compensation the shooter may have been extra, extra, careful to make sure, when dealing with the occupants of the car. Thus explaining the repetitive one to another, to another, etc.
I may be reaching here but I also think the shooter ‘stood-off’ from the car to avoid the possibility that someone inside could kick the door open and take the gun out of his hand.
(*) There is always a Oui, mais.. in this bad business, nothing ever seems clear-cut.
Peter
In your post yesterday (the 2nd) at 5:15 pm you speculated that Iqbals trip to the UAE was about “getting shot of yet another man, namely a guy whom she had been “married to” in the UAE, long before she even met Thompson“.
Following your speculation to it’s logical conclusion, the gendarmes should be looking for a man in the UAE who died unexpectedly on or about 5th September 2012. And maybe others elsewhere. Presumably all the stables had to be cleaned out.
Alternately, if your UAE man were still alive, there may be some family honour motive going on (not necessarily with him as instigator).
http://msbusiness.com/2007/10/old-first-baptist-church-in-natchez-will-be-reborn-as-shops-and-condos/
Jim’s family was into property development. I didn’t know that.
@ M. I agree the “Lone Nutter” theory has the logical flaw you describe (no guarantee that a suitable victim would turn up there and then). But Lone Nutters are under no obligation to behave logically, rationally or predictably. I could imagine a deranged individual visiting that place regularly, biding his time, playing obsessively with his Luger, unloading and loading the magazine until it was second nature to him, or perhaps merely fantasizing about committing murder, until something snapped in his brain, pushing him over the edge.
@ Michael Norton. Not an elegant theory, I admit – but it is the one that currently addresses the “known unknowns” of this case – “faute de mieux”, as it were. Moreover a person who matches the profile closely exists, and was arrested, even though he was later released for lack of evidence.
@ Good in Parts. I absolutely agree that the killer must have been very familiar with Lugers, and “obsessive” is a word which comes to my mind too. This suggests a gun enthusiast / collector. In skilled hands, the Luger Parabellum is highly accurate and effective. A single magazine can be fired off in a matter of seconds. The killer (if right handed) would probably have kept additional magazines in his lef thand pocket: with practice these can be unloaded and loaded within seconds.
If the motive was robbery, this could have been an opportunistic, spur of the moment thing (echoes of the 1952 Drummond murder). Except that nothing appears to have been stolen. The robbery motive is applicable to the “Lone Nutter” theory (the factor which pushed him over the edge) or to idea of a local or itinerant gang of thieves, roaming the area in search of vulnerable victims.
The notion that Mollier was lured to the place by the killer fits well with much of the circumstantial evidence that has come to light. But we are still missing some of the pieces of the puzzle. Perhaps these will emerge in due course.
If the killer’s plan was to murder Mollier alone, why did he bring so much ammunition, when a single magazine would have been more than sufficient? Possible explanations: (1) in case Mollier was not alone (better safe than sorry); (2) in case he wanted to fire off a few practice shots en route to the rendezvous (given that fewer than 3 x 9 = 27 spent cartridge cases were found on the scene, it is possible that the first magazine did not have its full complement of cartridges in it).
Although the total number of cartridges used seems shockingly excessive, it is perhaps more explicable if we view the event in terms of 3 bursts of semi-automatic fire, used broadly as follows: the first, to put down Mollier and perhaps also to wound SAH and his daughter; the second to kill the Al Hilli family in the car; the third to finish off Mollier.
Why empty an entire magazine into him? The obvious explanations have already been suggested. But in any case, what’s the point of conserving some of the bullets in the third magazine, if the killer’s intention is to dispose of the magazines, along with the gun? And once he started to fire off the last magazine, at great speed, it would be fully used up in seconds, whether intentionally or not. This is perhaps what saved Zainab’s life.
“The notion that Mollier was lured to the place by the killer fits well with much of the circumstantial evidence”
Was he “lured” or “his pre plans became known”.
The “lone nut theory” only exists because it is not known whether either Al Hilli or Mollier had planned to be present at the Martinet car park.
(The “flip side” of that brings forth many of the “conspiracy theories”. But we can “park” them for the moment).
Crucially, if Mollier had a “pre plan” to be at the Martinet (for whatever reason), then the “lone nut theory” is blown completely out of the water.
However, the “proliferation” of the story “he was in the wrong place at the wrong time” supports either “it was a lone nut” OR “the target was the Al Hilli family”.
Both these suggestions were “placed on the table” by Eric in the initial stages of the investigation.
Here you have to believe that a “local man” who was an “avid cyclist” somehow “got lost” in his local area.
The theory goes…. why else would he be travelling along that pot holed lane that afternoon, on a “five thousand euro” racing cycle.
In support of this “claim” is Mollier’s partner and the father of Mollier’s partner.
Of course, we cannot ask Mollier, so we have to “rely on” the story, as it is presented.
So the question is simply (and two fold).
Do you “trust”/”believe”/”accept” the story, as presented by Thierry and Claire ?
If you “trust”/”believe”/”accept” the account given by Thierry and Claire, is there any proof/reason that Mollier “knowingly deceived” them (and this may include “Mollier simply took a notion…and changed his route for no other reason than he liked to climb the Combe D’Ire) ?
Because, therein lies many a solution.
If Mollier intended to be at the Martinet that afternoon….everything would look very different.
Mollier – 5 bullets
Saad-4
ikbal-4
Suhaila-3
Zainab-1
17 out of 21 confirmed casings at the site
The gunman was firing at the moving car, all this in about 60 seconds, shots were heard, three people spoke to the Press, Mirabell father and son, lady on bicycle her rat tat tat comment
If the family were not expected to be there, that is one heck of a challenge for the gunman to think that fast.
Had he only taken one magazine, some only contain 7 cartridges what then, shoot Mollier and run away ?
Possibly shoot at the tyres of the car to slow it down, make escape difficult
The Luger is used at many shooting ranges in France due to its infamous use in movies, fiction and factual writing
Mollier – 5 bullets
Saad-4
ikbal-4
Suhaila-3
Zainab-1
17 out of 21 confirmed casings at the site
The gunman was firing at the moving car, all this in about 60 seconds, shots were heard, three people spoke to the Press, Mirabell father and son, lady on bicycle her rat tat tat comment
If the family were not expected to be there, that is one heck of a challenge for the gunman to think that fast.
The Luger is used at many shooting ranges in France due to its infamous use in movies, fiction and factual writing
The Swiss P06 magazines contain up to 8 cartridges, allowing one in, three chargers total 25 -convenient as old 7.65mm come in boxes of 25
One supposes they have the age of the bullets because they can be identified by the stamp at the base of the casing, according to Rizet they were the bottle shaped type
I wonder if they had been bleached to rid all DNA traces ?
Planned attack, whomever the target, one/two or all.
Apologies for the part double post, I made an error on the magazine capacity.
I had thought we had been told Sylvain Mollier had seven bullet wounds?
He is the only local.
He was, we have been told, shot first and last.
That does not seem like the actions of a lone nutter,
except if the lone nutter was also a local and was only/mainly nutty about Sylvain Mollier.
@ Good In Parts, 3 Jun, 2015 – 11:44 pm
Yes, I believe that the murders could ultimately be motivated by some kind of “family honour” issue. That would explain the combination of careful preparation and extreme, apparently pointless savagery. An alternative hypothesis would be that Iqbal had defected from whatever cause she might have been serving secretly, and that the murders were meant to serve as a message to other potential defectors. In my opinion, both fit equally well.
Either way, the perpetrator whom I have in mind is the suited man who argued with Saad the night before the murders.
http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/chevaline-a-la-recherche-d-un-etrange-visiteur-25-10-2013-3257705.php
I believe that man to live not far away, probably on the Swiss side of the border, thereby accounting for the peculiar pistol used.
Insofar as Jim Thompson is concerned, I tend to believe that his death was a natural one. Given his age, gender, obesity, his history of untreated chest pains, the fact that he was a smoker and a number other factors, he had a fairly high annual death risk anyway. Against that background, the coincidence of his dying on the same day as his ex-wife is not quite as incredible as it seems.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10958232/Alps-murder-Family-says-secret-Al-Hilli-husband-will-not-be-exhumed.html
His history of chest pains also means that, if he was murdered, he must have been slowly poisoned over a long period of time – something that would have been easy to accomplish for a member of his household, but much less so for some swarthy Middle Eastern assassin.
I do not know what they get up to in France.
Does anybody know what are the expected procedures after a gun massacre in France,
with regards to finding out exactly how the victims were bumped off?
Or do they just shrug their shoulders and say well they were shot, were they not.
SHRUG.
Mr Juicy
The Luger does indeed suggest a gun enthusiast / collector. If it was not bought for the purpose (as an effectively untraceable gun) then it was probably one of the best pieces in his collection. One that he would be sad to have to destroy but the only one he can be sure of being untraceable.
He knows its provenance as well. Not bought from another collector, that would run the risk of bullets or cartridges being found at a shooting range thus leading to the original owner.
I guess it came from the estate of the widow of a Swiss Army officer, maybe found during a house clearance. The storage box caked with dust indicating it had just sat there since the officer retired.
M. is correct, I think, on the magazine capacity. However I suspect that the magazines were not loaded to full capacity. They were probably the original three magazines that were issued with the gun.
They would be seriously old by now and the springs would have aged. There could also be a patina of rust, pitting and general wear. If they had been stored loaded with bullets (ie the spring compressed) then the required spring force may not be available, thus risking misfeeds.
I am sure that the killer knew the risks and only loaded 7 rounds into each magazine.
As to Mollier, he regularly rode up the Combe. His uncle, who lives somewhere nearby stated that he did so because he liked the coolness of the valley and the shade of the trees. He also stated that SM would sometimes drop by for a visit when he rode the route.
SM might have arranged an assignation up there but he was definately highly familiar with the route. He probably smiled and agreed with the route suggested by his father-in-law but then took one of his habitual routes.
James makes a good point about pre-plan but it may not necessarily have been ‘disclosed’ as such. I think that as a creature of habit, with favoutite routes, a bad actor would only need to follow SM on his velo for a short distance out of Ugine to be able to predict his most probable route. The bad actor could then leapfrog ahead to set up an ambush.
Oh, and “irony” is a word which comes to my mind given the regularity of my posting. . .
Michael Norton
“That does not seem like the actions of a lone nutter, except if the lone nutter was also a local and was only/mainly nutty about Sylvain Mollier.”
This. And obsessed with Sylvain Mollier.
MN, as in the British Coroners reporting there is a difference with bullet count and bullet wounds, entry and exit.
Saad had 7 entry and exit wounds
Ikbal 5 ditto
Suhaila entry wounds only
Zainab one bullet to her left shoulder
That leaves 5 bullets to Mollier, 7 entry and exit wounds
Saad told neighbours and apparently friends he feared for his life before he left, he also feared for family in Iraq – I cannot envisage that worry came from his brothers shenanigans over number 26.
As for the Mollier angle, nothing can be found against his partners family, as is the case for Zaid.
If the Schutz family truly believe he was ‘trompé’ by the route, be that lost or deviated, Mollier is the liar from beyond the grave, he did his own thing, maybe he changed his mind on the day, lovely as it was.
Somehow the Mollier/Schutz believe he’d never been there before, Uncle Fernand of Faverges said he had – the old man remains ALIVE !
The conundrum continues.
Location, weapon – SM
Suitman, rhd 4×4, Geneva money, money to be put in Geneva, mystery photographer in CHEVALINE, number of people murdered – Family or family member/s.
@ M are you saying that Sylvain Mollier was shot seven times,
with only five bullets?
It does seem that all the adults had to die.
SET-UP-MEET
http://m.gulfnews.com/news/uae/general/al-hilli-opens-her-account-1.402127
Mitsubishi Pajero: Yasmin Al-Hilli’s choice in 2002.
http://speedqueens.blogspot.ca/2010/08/yasmin-alhilli.html?m=1
She went to uni in NZ. Another useless factoid that I don’t remember.
Isn’t
Willian Brett Martin
from New Zealand.
What a co-incidence.
Did someone mention FIFA? Yasmin Al-Hilli is back in Bahrain, having completed remote archaeology studies through the University of Leicester. She is a licensed FIFA player agent.
http://www.ibtimes.com/syrian-iraqi-refugees-are-half-population-swedish-city-1619232
Maybe the swarthy man in the campground was from Sweden.
On another purely random thought the Issa name appears here:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/14/world/middleeast/iraq.html?referrer=&_r=0
IRRV, we discussed people named after towns, and towns named after people, in the early days of these threads.
In case you wanted to know, Yasmin A-H lives in Issa, or Is a town in Bahrain.
Entry wounds 5, exit wounds 2
3 bullets remained in the body of SM
Saad 4 entry and 3 exit wounds
1 bullet remained in the body
Ikbal 4 entry wounds 1 exit wound
3 bullets remained in the body
I realise much of the exit of a bullet depends on where it entered – does anyone have knowledge of whether a bullet shot closer to a person is more likely to remain in the body than one shot from a distance ?