The Al-Hilli Conundrum

by craig on September 10, 2012 12:43 pm in Uncategorized

My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.

Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.

In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.

My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?

Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:

From Janesmith101

All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.

Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.

Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.

What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?

As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.

The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.

Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.

An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.

I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.

I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.

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  1. @Dennehy

    What is bizarre is the the huge discrepancies between Brett Martin’s statements and those of the French hiker, Philippe D., who arrived on the scene moments later.

  2. @bajer

    “I thought that the fact the ex-RAF guy was first on the scene was suspicious – and also the fact that the builders were working on his house”

    That’s strange as they said that they paid attention to the car because they thought it might be the house owner checking up on them. You would think they might have known that he was out on his bike.

    William Brett Martin
    Age Guide: 50-54

    Brighton, East Sussex, BN1
    incientally there is another Cyclo Club Ugine website, with a photo page.

    I don’t see our “linkedout” RAF member there but I am sure Melanie Phillips of the Mail is a member (2006 photo!)

  4. Fascinating interview, different section available at

    But we haven’t learned anything very new except exRAF identity.

    “As I sort of approached the scene, the first thing I saw was a bike on its side and um I had seen the cyclist [Mollier] ahead of me much earlier, so I thought that he was just having a rest.”

  5. I have read a lot of books on the Mossad as I have an interest in SS’s not a conspiracy theory interest I just like spy sh**!
    I think we are thinking along teh same lines, when I heard about it I thought Mossad and the RAF thing didnt seem right from day one, why explain someone by their ex profession? what happens if he used to be the local manager at Waitrose?

    I like everyones theories as in life you take what you want and leave the rest!

  6. @Bajer

    Thank you for the insinuation that I am closed minded. I’ve been called worse by better!!


    Are you saying you do not now think it was Mossad? And that there is a cover up? Or is that still your position?

    (If not, how do you explain the D Notice? Or do you not there is one?)


    William Brett Martin has 1 company director or secretary appointments.
    Short name – William Martin
    Director ID : 911073461
    Year of Birth: 1959

    23 Lauriston Road
    Preston Village
    BN1 6SN
    Company Summary
    Company Name Company Status

  8. Ferret: “By the way, one thing still puzzled me. Last night at 9:24 pm you wrote:

    “And I’m danish – who live in a country without phoneboxes!”

    I’ve been to Denmark and there are plenty of phone boxes… such as these

    Which Denmark are you in, exactly?


    The phonebox-thing was a joke/ in answer to Anders – not to be interpreted litteraly! So if I say: “we don’t have spooks in Denmark” then don’t take it litteraly.

    I also prefer the truth as long as it sticks to the facts, which in my wiev not is identical to how many times a man blink while he is interviewed on TV.

  9. A medical question:

    Brett Martin says in the interview:

    “She had quite a lot of blood and some obvious head injuries. I checked that she wasn’t profusely bleeding, or anything that needed to be stopped.”

    Can you be shot in the shoulder, pass out from blood loss/shock, and not be bleeding profusely? I don’t know as I’m not a medic.

    Re blinking a lot, he also ums and ahs a lot, as you can see from MontyW’s post (“sort of”, and “um” in the first sentence, more follows if you listen to the interview.)

  10. @ReCognito

    OK thanks for clarifying!


  11. Brett Martin – British Airways Captain
    23 Lauriston Road Brighton East Sussex
    BN1 6SN
    Tel: 01273 504419…/1215945825_Adam%20Novis%20-%20CV.doc

  12. Now that ‘ex-RAF guy’ has been named as Brett Martin and shown to the world that part of any conspiracy or cover-up drops away for me. He would be known in the area and so if they produced someone else acting the part the lie would soon be exposed. It has always been clear that if ‘Ex-RAF guy’ was genuine then the media would identify him pretty quickly. That is probably what happened and that, together with the fact that hiding him was only fuelling unhelpful speculation, meant that the best way forward for both him and the investigation was to put him on show.

    Incidentally the BBC interviewer did discuss the motorbike, 4×4 etc. with him and has tweeted about it. Reconciling Brett M’s account with that of Philippe D is still a challenge. Has anyone seen a first hand account of what Philippe D said in his media interview?

    The two now corroborate on the question of who successfully called emergency services.

    Brett M says he saw 4×4 and motorbike, Philippe D did not. If both are telling the truth then the only answer is that the 4×4 and motorbike took the other fork in the road to the one Philippe D was approaching from. The local farmer saw a motorbike in the area several times.

    There remains the question of blood on the 7 year old but I have not seen what Philippe D actually said on this.

  13. @Mark – what is the BBC tweeter’s name?

  14. used to live in Brighton,knew a few ppl there who worked airlines so that fits,strange he said West sussex…..everyone in Brighton knows it’s East Sussex.

  15. You can pass out from shock and indeed die from it without bleeding at all.

  16. He smelt burning rubber and a burning engine smell? where they chased to this location by the Bike.

    It was nice of Brett to answer all our questions?

    @Mark your right he would be known in the area, good angle, do we knwo for sure that the builder was working on Mr Martins house that is included on the Silver Fern site?

  17. Google street view. Average terraced house,fairly quiet street.Bland a bit like BM.

  18. @Ricki – the builder was said to working on the last house in Chevaline before the forest road whereas Brett’s house is in the village of Lathuille which is 3km to the NW.

    This corner of France is obviously VERY popular with the Brits. (I never knew).

  19. @MontyW – BBC interviewer is @tonysymonds –

    @RickiTarr – engine and rubber smell was because wheels were spinning and engine revving when Brett M arrived on the murder scene.

  20. @ Ian – there’s no Google street view in Lathuille.

  21. @Kathy – I am not sure if the builders were actually working on the RAF guy’s house, but it was reported by a few people. It just got buried and no one did more checking on it.

    @Ferret – See my post at 7:01pm last night re the D-notice and why I don’t believe there is one in place. Craig has also said that his sources have said that al-hilli was not a person of interest to British intelligence.

    As to whether I believe it was Mossad? I am less inclined to think that way now. It’s looking like the weapon may have been a CZ50 and not a Beretta. The French prosecutor has also said that the source of the crime is in the UK. I have no reason to disbelieve him. I’m kinda leaning towards industrial espionage, or more likely that it may have been the brother. I initially thought that there was no way that this could have been the case because the two girls were left alone – but I would be very interested to find out about the father’s will and if it has been properly executed. i.e., will the brother now become the main beneficiary, or the girls? I thought it strange that he presented himself to the police to enquire about his brother when he heard of the initial reports of the murders. Almost seemed like he was giving himself an alibi.

    But I am still very much open as to what happened, and no way would I rule out secret services at this stage. There are just too many unknowns. I would like to know the answers to (in no particular order):

    Is there a section of roof rack missing? Did he have a bike, or was it a container type roof rack for holding pipes?
    Why was the elder girl outside the car? Had she been in the front seat? Did she get out to let someone in?
    What gun was used? Beretta, Skorpion or CZ50?
    The contents of the will?
    Are there any unaccounted for bullets? Where did they land?
    Mollier’s partner brought a picture of her missing partner to the police station after he was only missing for a few hours. Why? Did she suspect that he may have been involved in something dangerous?
    The movements of Swedish son?
    What was in the safe?

    The police will have the answers to most of these questions and are in a far better position to ascertain what happened than the amateur sleuths here – and they say that the answers are to be found in the UK.

  22. straw44berry

    13 Sep, 2012 - 3:12 pm

    tomsymonds twitter is significant highlights the keypoint:

    I dont know who was in the vehicles so you dont need to kill me.

    That was the whole point of the interview.

  23. RAF man’s home in Brighton………sorry should have made that clear. No23

  24. @MontyW – Sorry typo – I meant BBC interviewer is @tomsymonds –

  25. Aussie/New Zeland twang to his accent?

  26. murdermostfowl

    13 Sep, 2012 - 3:20 pm


    I noticed the New Zealand tinge as well. His company is “Silver Fern” – the NZ rugby logo.

  27. @Ian Boyd

    LinkedIn profile says he was at St. Kentigern’s College in Auckland 1971-78. Picked up a Kiwi accent and hasn’t entirely lost it. I suppose that’s why his company is called Silver Fern – a Kiwi emblem.

  28. @Ian Boyd,

    Yeah, according to LinkedIn, he was schooled in NZ: St Kentigern’s College.

    Is that somehow significant, or just an observation on your part? :)

  29. …he began to scour the woods…

    So why wait so long to wheel out Mr Martin, who seems to check out? Why not have said retired Pilot for example?

  30. Right at the end of the extended interview, did he say something like

    “It’s time to rein in these sort of people who walk about our society and do these sort of things with impunity,”

    That in reply to who he thought might have done it. Anyone got the exact quote. Full interview not online yet that I can see unless anyone has a link.

    Interesting words (if I heard correctly) that he’d obviously decided to say in advance.

  31. The silver fern is the national emblem of new Zealand and thus it appears on the rugby shirts of the All Blacks.

    The years he was at St Ketigerns indicates that this was his High School and thus he would be a New Zealander or his parents immigrated there when he was a young lad.

  32. Meanwhile, back in Claygate this pm…
    Er, how long ago was this property of interest???

  33. straw44berry

    13 Sep, 2012 - 3:39 pm

    Can anyone find a photo of William Brett Martin other than from this interview?

    Otherwise we have yet another 1-dimensional character to join the others

  34. This interview paints a totally different picture than Phillipe D? didnt he say the girl was face down with no sign of cuts or wounds etc??

    Mr Martin states that he put the girl in the recovery position that definatley would not be face down and moved out of the way of the Rd and Car, im sure Phillipe D said that the girl was still in the Rd?

  35. @Ricky Tarr

    The point about the recovery position is that it is not face down, it is face and body sideways.

    The girl is reported to have been shot in the shoulder so you would pad/compress the area as best you could and keep that shoulder uppermost to lessen to blood flow out of the entry/exit hole(s).

    Philippe D said no visible blood/wounds but they should have been visible if she was in recovery position.

  36. @MontyW

    You asked about the report of 30 seconds of automatic gunfire. The interviewee is Danielle Pelletier (sounds like)

    Where on earth was she when she heard it? Could be a holidaymaker, though there is a restaurateur in Annecy with that name. SARL LA FLAMBEE
    Secteur d’activité : Hôtels et restaurants
    Adresse : 26 rue Vaugelas
    Code postal : 74000
    Ville : Annecy
    Dirigeant : Danielle PELLETIER

    But might be irrelevant. Still, an important witness in the official narrative. She is interviewed astride a mountain bike. or could be styled Danièle PELLETIER

  37. Kempe: “The conspiracy theory surrounding this tragic event is based on nothing but vapours and the increasingly desperate attempts of the gullible to keep it aloft are becoming laughable.”

    Well said.

    “He blinked a lot”. 😆

  38. Interviewer of Pelletier – Jon Kay, BBC West of England correspondnent (!)
    Jon Kay ‏@jonkay01
    @GuyBexon v sad. awful. just helping out BBC foreign team for a couple of days. back home v soon.

    12:28 AM – 7 Sep 12 · Details


  39. @skymartinbrunt has tweeted more details of Brett Martin interview:

    @Straw44berry – there is also a photo of Brett Martin on his LinkedIn profile (I posted link earlier).

  40. He said he saw the driver’s side window was already “star smashed” before he smashed it, and went to the driver’s side to switch the engine off.

    He then went to the other side and saw the passenger side windows smashed too.

    So whch way would he have been travelling? Along the lane with the car/carpark on his left? I assumed cyclists and the car itself would have travelled up the lane with the carpark to their right as they reached it. If he saw the driver’s side first then I’m thinking this can’t be the case.


  41. Firstman…..observation,however it is a ‘distinguishing mark for I.D purposes. If he is who they say he is. BBC is virtually embedded in this ‘operation’like all other news outlets.

  42. Mark. Brunt the c*nt….another embedded reporter.Remember the McCanns? More story changes as that went on.

  43. @Kempe: generally inclined to agree with your sentiment. But it’s worth remembering that sometimes people are ridiculed, derided and slandered for holding opinions that run counter to the official line, but who might actually be ultimately vindicated. I refer to you to the families of the Hillsborough victims in one corner, versus South Yorkshire Police, the Sheffield Coroner, The Sun and the Thatcher government in the other corner!

  44. Fleshing Mr Martin out a little more …

    France | Silver Fern Sussex

    Holiday home to rent in Haute Savoie, France. All enquiries to · Home · Gallery · Activities · Location · House Facilities …



    As Flying Officer (four years):
    William Brett MARTIN (S203888) 2nd Jul. 1989.

  45. straw44berry

    13 Sep, 2012 - 4:33 pm

    Silver Fern (Sussex) ‘s Registered Office is 55 Princes Gate, Exhibition Road, London SW7 2PN anything unusual about that?

  46. … and the Mrs …

    Theresa Martin
    Cabin Crew at Silver Fern (Sussex) Limited Brighton, United Kingdom | Airlines/Aviation

  47. Princess Gate….mmmm Foriegn Embassies everywhere.

  48. Strawberry – likely to be his accountants. Lots of very varied businesses at that address, including a Gabriel Consultants which is an accountancy firm I believe.

  49. PS – not implying the Gabriel firm is his accountants. There may be other accountancies at that address too

  50. Silver Fern seems to share a building with …

    Ognisko 55 Exhibition Road, London. SW7 2PN

    Ognisko Polish restaurant in Kensington offers a great selection of European and Polish cuisine, and a great location for private parties.

    1 Google review

  51. Lots of companies registered at 55 Princes Gate SW7. There’s also a Polish club and restaurant in the building – can’t recommend it.

  52. Harriet Alexander ‏@h_alexander

    Just dawned on me I need to leave my flat at 5am tomorrow. Happy days
    11:53 AM – 5 Sep 12 ·
    [Foreign Correspondent, The Sunday Telegraph]


  53. @ Felix – re: sound of automatic gunfire – that interview is a great find!

    As you say, the question is where was she when she heard those sounds?

    The mountain bike she’s on is fitted with a shopping basket so likely to be used for local errands and not for a big tour of the area.

    Interestingly, I can place the BBC interview with her right outside the Solitaire du Lac campsite. Note the distinctive sign on the wall behind the interviewer is located right outside the campsite. You can see it in Google street view.

    The campsite is 17km by road to the crime scene.

  54. Ognisko used to be called The Polish Hearth Club – maybe still is. Before they renovated the place it looked as if it hadn’t been decorated since the war. Lots of pictures on the walls of Polish airmen who joined the RAF during the war and memorabilia from that era. Awful food but interesting place – that was 25 years ago though.

  55. Oops, Silver Fern site down for maintenance….

  56. Apologies if someone has already picked up on this but why does an ex-RAF Pilot from ‘Surrey’ have an Australian accent?

  57. The site’s probably been taken down because of the huge increase of traffic ie from nos parkers like us.

    If he spent 7 years in NZ studying he’s obviously gained and retained a slight twang. Maybe he spent some of his youth ie before college there too?

    He was very smooth in that interview, like a typically smooth BA pilot in fact, but he did seem to over egg the pudding a tad with his explanations. He was better telling his story without interruption than he was in answering questions the interviewer put to him. I’d rather he’d been left to spout forth with his tale than interrupted in the middle of it, and questions then left to when he’d finished.

  58. Ah thanks Dopey. Sorry. Missed the back story. NZ not Oz. Ok.

  59. Yeah, not unusual to have loads of companies registered at a specific address, could be the offices of their accountants or solicitors or anything TBH.

    Couple of interesting ones registered at the same address if anyone wants to get excited, specifically the choice of name use by one of the detective agencies…

    Squadron Ltd – Detective Agencies

    International Protection Services Ltd

    Gwj 61 Ltd – Detective Agencies

    Cokerest Ltd – Detective Agencies

    And, International Protection Services has an interesting website:

    “The experience of our operatives derive from backgrounds of elite units within the British Armed Forces (Including SAS, Parachute Regiment, Royal Military Police & Royal Marines) French Foreign Legion Civilian police and security services, this experience combined with commercial security knowledge, understanding and extensive practice has enabled us to focus and adapt to any given situation and to provide a solution quickly and effectively to security issues across the spectrum.”

  60. Mr Martin interview – things that make you go mmm

    First thing to stand out was when he said when he first saw the older daughter he though she might just be playing with her sibling; not another child but sibling. Mmmm. Ok also the obvious – he says she was obviously badly injured while Philippe D says he saw no signs of injury despite checking for breathing and finding no sign. Also no question about hearing gunshots – surely one of the first questions to be asked. I’ve never been one to see a smoking gun in Mr Martin’s hand but this and Monsieur D’s stories together are getting very odd…. and the Hollywood scene stuff reference even weirder. Perhaps like a horror film would be a more natural comparison but Hollywood suggests artifice and glamour …

  61. straw44berry

    13 Sep, 2012 - 5:13 pm

    I’m out of what do, we sussed out the roof rack, we have an interview, a name, a face but I feel we are on the street of a movie set. Nothing behind the frontages.

    I cant find his birth details on Ancestry which is all I have.

  62. .. And the long winded explanation of why he did not see how many occupants were the car that passed by and what they looked like … ” It could have been one or ten” mmmm Bit touchy there

  63. @ferret

    One other thought… if RAFman (assuming he exists of course) didn’t actually see any of the kill squad at the scene, WHAT THE F**K IS HE SO AFRAID OF???

    Suggest his story has unravelled do badly that all these fake new witnesses have been parachuted in. Suggest if RAFman is not named, he is a spook. Suggest if RAFman ever makes the light of day, it will be a very smooth and skilled list from Legoland at Vauxhall Cross, suggest the bloke will have a tache and look like Douglas Bader! :)

  64. Kempe: “The conspiracy theory surrounding this tragic event is based on nothing but vapours and the increasingly desperate attempts of the gullible to keep it aloft are becoming laughable.”

    I can see your point. But nevertheless, it’s still not at all clear whether the killings were carried out by some country’s secret service, or by paid killers, or even revenge merchants.

    In my mind I had dismissed the inheritance angle as ridiculous. Maybe it’s not, after all. But if you’re going to benefit from an inheritance, it seems a bit bloody stupid to blatantly arrange for the death of your rival(s).

    Ex-RAF man seems to be in the clear. Or are some here still suspecting him?

    Firstman, “But it’s worth remembering that sometimes people are ridiculed, derided and slandered for holding opinions that run counter to the official line ..”

    Or the Anders7777 line 😉

    “Why would al-Hilli still have links to Iraq? He was only a teenager when his parents fled the country for Britain in the late 1970s. Yet French police say his links with Iraq are high on their list of enquiries.”

  65. straw44berry

    13 Sep, 2012 - 5:21 pm

    Anders watch the Interview with Mr Ex-Rag guy -William Brett Martin
    u missed a lot

  66. “Suggest if RAFman is not named, he is a spook.”

    Anders, he’s been interviewed by the Beeb. It’s all over TV today.

  67. Btw. Anyone who has problems with my FIDDLY iPhone links

    Just paste in ask Jeeves or glooble the first few sentences and you will almost always get the link, unless it is sensitive

    In which case to goes 404;)

  68. @Vermillion

    Suggests coaching to me.

  69. “It could have been one or ten” mmmm Bit touchy there”

    He’s seen the dead Sylvain. And he has children of his own. Give him a break.

  70. EADS Buy up Surrey Satellites,now BAE merge with EADS….. Sub company of SST called DMCii bid business with Russian company ScanEx maybe the espionage is industrial rather than political ?

  71. @badger

    It was reported that he was terrified of being identified – not terrified. If he is legit, this is not that unusual, imho. He had stumbled upon a murder scene, where ruthless killer(s) had just killed four people and seriously injured a child. He was obviously going to be a key witness. Just because he was ex-RAF, doesn’t mean he was fearless. I for one, would be shitting myself. The killers could still be close by. He would be worried that they might want to silence him. It’s easy to understand why he could be “terrified of being identified”.

    The above is of course total bollocks. Every single actor bar none in this acte de folie by Tavistock productions has been identified by US or by le prosecutor or dissembling media. Everyone except stiff upper lip-man.


  72. “Suggest if RAFman is not named, he is a spook.”

    Anders, he’s been interviewed by the Beeb. It’s all over TV today.

    Thanks Nuid, so they’ve rolled out an ACTOR

    eh? :)

  73. “maybe the espionage is industrial rather than political?”

    Yes, Ian, that was mentioned briefly somewhere, but not followed up.

  74. “Thanks Nuid, so they’ve rolled out an ACTOR”

    Can’t be, Anders. He’d be identifiable both in his home location in the UK, plus his location in Haute Savoie.

  75. Odd that BAE announce merger with EADS….a few scientists/experts working for BAE and Raytheon have met with untimely deaths.

  76. Jammie Dodgers

    13 Sep, 2012 - 5:47 pm

    Anyone else find the interview with “Brett Martin” slightly, um, er, staged? His testimony was all rather matter-of-fact and wooden.

    He didn’t seem the least bit phased by the experience even though he admitted he had never seen the corpse of a shooting victim before, let alone three with two bullets in the front of the head. Stumbling across a sight like that would be very disturbing to anyone.

    He is obviously very brave and not in the least worried.

  77. Jammie Dodgers

    13 Sep, 2012 - 5:50 pm

    “Odd that BAE announce merger with EADS….a few scientists/experts working for BAE and Raytheon have met with untimely deaths.”

    And who can forget the Marconi saga, only 25 dead scientists.

  78. @jon

    @anders7777 – please post less quantity and more quality. Write your own posts, and if your mobile phone is making it tricky to correctly quote and attribute, then use another device.

    Second request for you to please list here all the organisations reading this and the first thred, your ISP can tell you of you don’t have the correct s/w.

    Ta 😉

  79. @ Ian Boyd.

    Nowt odd about the BAE/EADS merger talks, the history of those go back to 1997 before EADS was actually formed after BAE dropped out of talks with the other potential partners in order to buy Marconi Electronic Systems instead.

    BAE/EADS merged their missile businesses in 2001, EADS acquired BAE’s 25% share in Astrium, the satellite and space system manufacturer in 2003, and they were partners in Airbus until 2006 when BAE sold its share to EADS.

    The companies have been inter-linked on various projects for many years – just take a look at EADS history on Wikipedia.

    The merger talks certainly have nothing to do with this case.

  80. Im sorry but thats a front company just like the one used in the Gareth Williams case and wouldnt be suprised if that house in France is a sfe house and im not even going off topic!

  81. @Jammie Dodgers: Not heard of that one before!

    “Police investigations found the deaths to be unconnected and lacking evidence of foul play”

    And we’ve seen this week that the British police can be relied upon for their open and honest investigations, can’t we? (COUGH Hillsborough COUGH).

  82. Anders7777, I second Jon’s request. Jon’s a moderator here, and so am I. Please keep your arguments focused.

  83. In an interview with The Daily Telegraph, Philippe D said that he had been hiking up the forest road of Combe-d’Ire near the village of Chevaline with two female friends when a cyclist suddenly came careering towards him.

    The cyclist, a British RAF veteran who was the first person to discover the murder scene, yelled “something terrible’s happened” as the two crossed paths just 50 yards away from the al-Hilli family’s BMW estate car.

    “He looked panic-stricken, shocked,” Philippe D said of the British cyclist. “He tried to explain in pidgin French what had happened.

    “He wanted to phone the emergency services. I didn’t understand whether he had a mobile or couldn’t get a signal.”

    Philippe D said that he at first assumed there had been an accident, but that when he reached the murder scene a few moments later, he was “scared stiff” by what he saw.

    “There was no sound. It was like a horror film,” he said. “One of those TV series where everything starts with a murder.

    “Except this time we were the actors and we didn’t have the remote control to change the channel switch.

    “When we saw that nobody answered our calls and apparently everyone was dead, we were totally spooked.”

    The hiker, who called the emergency services, then saw seven-year-old Zainab al-Hilli lying in the recovery position just yards from the BMW, where the British cyclist had placed her.

    Philippe D said: “She was lying down and motionless, but she didn’t looked bashed up. I could see no blood, one couldn’t see where she had been hurt. She was a few yards in front of the car.

    “She didn’t respond to our calls. I clapped my hands but she didn’t react. I even said a few words in English as I saw the car was registered in Great Britain. But nothing happened. For me, she was dead.”

    Once the police and medics arrived, Phillipe D and the British cyclist were taken to the gendarmerie for questioning.

    While the unidentified RAF officer told police that he had seen a dark green four-wheel drive vehicle and a motorbike coming down the hill shortly before he arrived on the scene, the French hiker said was “totally sure” he had “heard nothing and passed nobody – not a car or a motorbike”.

    He returned to the crime scene on Sunday to help police reconstruct the precise timing of the shooting and their arrival.

    Police sources cited by French media say that one type of weapon, a 7.65 calibre pistol, was used in the attack. However, it is unclear whether one or two guns or gunmen were involved.

    Around 120 French police officers are working on the investigation, split into five or six teams of which each is investigating a different theory. Mr al-Hilli’s brother, Zaid, has denied claims that they were involved in a family feud over their father’s legacy.

    Meanwhile, tourists who stayed at the same campsite as the victims in the days leading up to their death, corroborated claims that Mr al-Hilli had frequently disappeared alone in his car without his family.

    Dutch tourist Eli Draaisma, 64, from Veememdaal, in Holland, also said that a “strange” man of Eastern European appearance was scouring every corner of the Village Camping Europa site in Saint Jorioz, three hours before the al-Hilli’s left for a neighbouring campsite.

    “He was dressed all in black, black trousers, black long-sleeved shirt,” he said. “He seemed to be searching the campsite, looking everywhere, but he didn’t look like a tourist. He definitely didn’t look like he belonged, he was not on a holiday.” (Torygraph story ends)

    Former Head of Anti Terrorism Squad and a Criminology professor both interviewed said today that a serious higroup could have staged a fatal car crash and that this was clearly intended to be a warning. They thought it was terrorism related.

    Some hints in the press of possible Iranian involvement – Shia connection?

    Speaking as a layperson sounds like some sort of deal – drugs, intelligence – that went wrong and family went on run. Hit men caught up with them and killed them as a warning. It reads to me as if the hit man killed all the car occupants, then the cyclist who showed up as he was leaving, hence less efficiently killed, and then the little girl appeared and he had to do a hasty job and leave fast. Experts seem generally agreed if he was a professional aiming at all 5 he would have taken them all out equally efficiently.

    Some living in France, says on another site French police investigation has been carefully set up to be handled by security police not locals. Where is Interpol?

  84. @anders7777 – interesting idea, but I’d guess any competent security services know how to cover their tracks when visiting a web site, and (of course) it’s not in the spirit of internet privacy to list the service providers of ordinary visitors.

  85. “Thanks Nuid, so they’ve rolled out an ACTOR”

    Can’t be, Anders. He’d be identifiable both in his home location in the UK, plus his location in Haute Savoie.

    An ACTOR has many faces!

    All spooks have day jobs as cover. Frank Gardner for example. Tavistock and Mi5 have had many days now to rehearse the geezer.

    I say he’s only been wheeled out at a because of threads like this.

    Pre Internet we’d never have seen him.

    I’m off to study some NLP analysis of the interview. Initial reactions are not good.

    Interesting smorgasboard of reactions here:

    Originally Posted by fancycat
    When he said siblings , he sure sounded like he had a Kiwi twang.
    He has probably been briefed up this past week by his handlers on what exactly to say….
    Talked about it like it was an episode of CSI….
    Something didn’t sit right watching that personally….

    MM SAID: He is very calm, not emotional or even emotive about what he is speaking of, something he was apparently so traumatised by, he didn’t sleep for days! As an RAF pilot, would he have been trained how to hide his body language etc?

    Raf pilots are sent on courses which include interrogation techniques and how to handle yourself. Obviously on case they get shot down behind enemy lines.

    Slevon: The whole interview doesn’t ring true. He also talks directly to the camera on a couple of occasions, rather than to the interviewer.

    “Quote” Mr Martin – who is currently under Police protection.

    Yet within 5 minutes everyone knows his life story WTF

    Sheepy: I suspect the spooks have been working around the clock this past week trying to come up with suitable spin to address some of our ‘concerns’ with the official story. I have no doubt that they have been glued to this thread (and to other ‘conspiracy’ websites) trying to assess what we have caught and what we have missed before rolling out the imposter/actor that is supposed to be RAFman.

    Dr froggy: drfroggy
    Registered User
    Join Date: Sep 2012
    Posts: 3

    He looked like he had been well trained in ‘interrogation’ techniques – very controlled…

    My gut instinct on watching him, from body language & the lack of ‘natural’ clues, was this wasn’t some random person who came across a horrific scene.

    Sheepy: OK did anyone pick up on this…

    The “journalist” asks if he had any idea that the 4-year-old was in the car at the time and whether he had seen her at all, to which he replies…

    ” No, (pause) NOT (stress) at all (shakes head)… And I am sort of not surprised. Unless you were to open that car and look in…the way the bodies in the rear were (pause) SLUMPED (stress)….it doesn’t surprise me in the least, because (pause) er… I can see why you wouldn’t want to go into the car for forensic reasons…and there would be no other reason to go in there except to move bodies…”
    Now I find what he says here very odd indeed. He is speaking as though he himself did not witness the incident/was not at the aftermath at all as though he is simply reporting/or reading from a script. There seems to be no connection between him and the situation.

    Wouldn’t it be more natural to say something along the lines of…

    “No, not at all. I had no idea she was in there because of the way the bodies were slumped. And I didn’t go into the car/open the car door for forensic reasons.”
    Possible explanations:

    (i) he is lying

    (ii) he is an actor (i.e. not RAFman but a stand-in)

    (iii) he is reciting or reading from a script

    My gut feeling is that the man in the interview is a FAKE!

  86. @anders7777 – interesting idea, but I’d guess any competent security services know how to cover their tracks when visiting a web site, and (of course) it’s not in the spirit of internet privacy to list the service providers of ordinary visitors.

    Yes they would, but it would be interesting to see who is visiting this thread. Many sites do this. This of a conspiratorial nature. Obviously just list the public face organisations. Not individuals. I don’t see this ad breaking any privacy laws.

  87. Similarly to how family members of murdered victims are urged to do press conferences so, the cops can gauge how they come across, perhaps this is the reason why he did this interview?

    Maybe he was advised to do it so investigation behaviorogists could study him? Just a thought..

  88. @rickitarr

    @anders7777 – interesting idea, but I’d guess any competent security services know how to cover their tracks when visiting a web site, and (of course) it’s not in the spirit of internet privacy to list the service providers of ordinary visitors.

    The one next to the masons lodge? (wink) :)

  89. @anders7777 – interesting idea, but I’d guess any competent security services know how to cover their tracks when visiting a web site, and (of course) it’s not in the spirit of internet privacy to list the service providers of ordinary visitors.

    I think people here pretty much know my views by now. Anyhoos, do you have a view on publishing the list of orgs reading this thread? IMHO this should sever as transparency. It is not illegal to read this thread. Not is it illegal to publish a List of those organisations reading here.

  90. @rickitarr

    Bloody iPhone! That was a reply to your safe house in the woods!;)

    I’d feel far safer in Beirut, personally, than CHAVALINE sur le Mort! :)

  91. Watched part of the Brett Martin interview while waiting at the doctor’s – no sound – so I was more aware of his body language.I was struck by his lack of expression – he could have been describing a routine shopping trip. I too thought he’d been coached but he wasn’t an actor or he’d have put on a better performance.

    Alternatively he was still in shock and his feelings were numbed by the terrible events he’d witnessed/ stumbled on.

  92. @MontyW
    Thanks – so the automatic gunfire witness is at the same campsite or that’s the impression the BBC wishes to create. Doesn’t look like that “Boris Bike” would get up the mountain easily.

    Oddities of Mr Martin’s “first” (an probably last) interview:
    “..sort of approaching the scene..”
    He thinks cyclist – (“bike on its side”) – is ““having a rest“, (strange way to leave a bike when having a rest) but then Martin doesn’t mention the body of the cyclist which was “more or less in front of the car” until later in the interview.

    “and then moved on”.. “moved on to the other people”… “sort of first attender’s activities”….”in and out of doing other things” “wheels spinning in circles” Strange phrases. Very general.
    I would have thought a multiply shot cyclist would have attracted a lot more attention straight away. Then he decides he has to drag the cyclist away from the car (when perhaps obviously no sign of life was present…) “I needed to move him,so I moved him away from in front of the vehicle”. Then he checks for signs of life.
    Er…could have turned the engine off before moving the body. Then

    “started scouting the woods” when there might be a crazed gunman about – highly sensible.

    A very weird interview – too much detail as has already been noted. I guess this will be his one and only break from cover.
    Highly coached with the official narrative,I feel. And perhaps with wire into his right ear. Seems a natural thing to do for prompting. Who’s in that wardrobe?

    “road rash” is more indicative of a racing cyclist’s talk.
    Wonder how active he is in VC Usine…

  93. @watcher

    Good stuff!

    Sidepoint, many links from last night / this morning (booman tribune for one) now = 404 errors , sites taken down.
    Getting closer to the D notice then ??
    Now you know why I ALWAYS PASTE STUFF IN!

    Not looked but I hope the mods haven’t deleted it :(

  94. If the cyclist (and the 7 year old) was found lying in front of the car then why is there blood several feet (a good six feet or more) to the right of the car? I’ve just watched some clips on you tube and a reporter at the site mentions the blood there.

  95. Feliz just read your post re him moving the cyclist. That might explain the blood except you’d expect a blood trail then, not a pool of it in one place so I’m still confused by the blood to the right of the car. I’ve seen no reference made to any at the front of the car or signs of it in pics.

  96. Another observation from the you tube clips. Coming back down the hill on that lane the carpark is on the right as you pass. Just after the car park, and again on the right, is another kind of layby area – the sort you’d find on a single track road to allow two cars to pass.

  97. @Dopey,
    In moving the cyclist, he has interfered with a crime scene. He could have switched off the engine first. The risk of the car shooting forwards seems far-fetched. Are spinning wheels “burning rubber” and “hot buring engine smell” credible? In fact all seems very far-fetched to me.
    Quite a few quotes in the recent Evening Standard piece
    Notice the French trying to switch the spotlight…
    Eric Maillaud, speaking in Woking today, said : “Annecy was the unfortunate site of this drama. Without any doubt the reasons and origins were in this country.”

  98. Bilbo Mortdecai

    13 Sep, 2012 - 7:04 pm

    There are some interesting theories here and people have done some great research. For sure these were ‘no ordinary tourists’ and this was no ordinary murder. I’m all for justice for the girls and finding out the truth as i’m sure goes for most who contribute here. Alas, we will never know and no one will now believe any version anyway so job well done in many ways. There is clearly plenty that doesn’t add up. Lack of media attention/details/access to witnesses it goes on and on and on. perhaps its the AngloFrench way? Maybe Mr RAF man is legit, maybe he isn’t. Perhaps as someone suggested it is indeed a cry of ‘i didn’t know these people therefore i am not of interest to you, please don’t come after me’. More power to him. But since when was the ambulance man of interest anyway, if you follow ? The person who arrives on the scene first doesn’t become a target for arriving after the deed is done and the doers have gone. That interview was thoroughly bizarre and his mouth was contradicted constantly by his body. It’s what you don’t say, as they say. To me one of the most baffling things here though are the contributors in the ‘it’s definitely NOT a conspiracy, it’s all perfectly straight forward and played out exactly as has been reported ‘ brigade who waffle on with absolutely no content and beyond puerile attacks posted as if by a demented parakeet. What can their motivation be one wonders, why would you find your way here and feel motivated to contribute that to this particular debate ? ‘Shoot and dilute’. Seems highly paranoid. Just might make one highly paranoid. Makes the whole thing much more spoo…ooo.oooo.oooo..oooo….ky….

  99. straw44berry

    13 Sep, 2012 - 7:06 pm

    Do we know why the crime scene had to be closed off again yesterday?

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